1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for our guest super producer, 4 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: a superstar in his own right, mister Paul. Mission control decands. 5 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: Right. Sorry, sorry, I had I had something in my throat. 6 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: Now that was the sound of uproarious applause for Paul 7 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: and Ben. I have to say, this is a kangaroo court. 8 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 2: It's a travesty. This is justice is not being done 9 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: today on Ridiculous History. 10 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: And uh and uh they call me Bed. You're Noel Brown, 11 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: and we are now we are not gonna take it anymore. 12 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: It's time to talk about something that's been on our 13 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: minds as well as on the mind of our amazing 14 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: research associate, doctor Z. What a great setup, nol. We 15 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: have been encountering the legal system a bit unexpectedly. That's 16 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: a true story actually on the show, and part of it. Yeah, 17 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: Max isn't here right right, And let's oh we should 18 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: just leave it there. We'll let Max explain himself. He'll 19 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: he'll provide his own facts on that one. Anyway, long 20 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: story short, folks, fellow ridiculous historians. Recent events got nol 21 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: and doctor Z and Max and Paul and I thinking 22 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: about court, and not just about court, but about how 23 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: court can turn some people to animals. 24 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: Well that's true, literally and f and then you know, 25 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: kangaroo court nothing to do with kangaroos. They don't put 26 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: a little wig in the in the give a little 27 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: gabbl to them the whole in their little pause. I 28 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: picture also having a little miniature version of that inside 29 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 2: the pouch, you know, kangaroo litigators. The best I can figure, 30 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 2: the etymology just refers to like a kind of jumping 31 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: around in terms of like you know, cutting corners, you know, 32 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,839 Speaker 2: a court that does not follow the prescribed rule of law. 33 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 2: But it was real bummed to find out that I 34 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: had nothing to do with kangaroos in any way, shape 35 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: or form. But today, while we're not necessarily talking about kangaroos, 36 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 2: we are talking about animals in court in one way 37 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: or another. 38 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: Boom boom boom boom boom boom boom. Yes, it turns 39 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: out that over the past few decades there have been 40 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,559 Speaker 1: some really exciting breakthroughs in the world of animal cognition. 41 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: Human beings are changing their understanding of what is considered 42 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: in intelligence in other species. You know, we talked about 43 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: this on stuff they don't want you to know. We 44 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: did an earlier episode on legal personhood and what we've Yeah, 45 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: what we found there was that researchers seemed to be 46 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: consistently discovering non human species emotions, their intelligence, their empathy, 47 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: their behavior, all this stuff that was once thought to 48 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: be solely the realm of humankind. 49 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it turns out when you boil a lobster or 50 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: a crab alive, they feel that real bad to do, 51 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: for sure, And goldfish. 52 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: Remembers stuff for longer than you think, and an octopus 53 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: can dream. 54 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: That's right. Elephants of course, the famous you know elephant 55 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: never forgets some truth to that as well. But I 56 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: was particularly taken aback by the crab revelation. There was 57 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: an episode of one of the Gordon Ramsey cooking shows, 58 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: I think it was Hell's Kitchen, where there was a 59 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: contestant who was of Hindu faith and in this mystery 60 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: box challenge to crab, and she started freaking out because 61 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: it was a live crab. And she admitted on TV. 62 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: You know, of course she's like, no cut the cameras away, 63 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: but of course they still find a way to film 64 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: out of course that's what they do. And she said 65 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: she never killed a living thing in her life, and 66 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: so I thought it was really odd because Gordon Ramsey, 67 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 2: he's very he's pretty kind. But ultimately the goal is 68 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: to get her to kill the crab. And once she 69 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,799 Speaker 2: kills the crab, she's like, I'm so proud of myself, 70 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: and me and my girlfriend were like, for going against 71 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 2: the tenets of your faith on national television kind of 72 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: felt bad, But yeah, I mean, and it's so interesting 73 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: that we are so I mean, obviously human race, human civilization, 74 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: very human centric. It's a little hard for us to 75 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: get our heads around the idea that something of another 76 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: species could experience the world in the same way as 77 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 2: we do. And that's what today's episode's all about, is 78 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: the idea of animal personhood and some very intense fights 79 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: for that right, you know, to party. 80 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, the law is in general going to treat subjects 81 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: as one of two things, people or property. Right now, 82 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: there's no third category, and the idea of legal personhood 83 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: argues that a certain level of intelligence or sapiens should 84 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,559 Speaker 1: guarantee a life form certain rights. Property doesn't have those rights. 85 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: Domesticated animals are treated as economic assets. So the law 86 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: for quite some time has always regarded people as people 87 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: and everything else, including animals, as property. 88 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: Well, let's also not forget the incredibly embarrassing and brutal, 89 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: brutal time in American history where many people were considered property. 90 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 2: So we know that these laws can change, or there 91 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: are ways to re contextualize, you know, our thinking around 92 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: these kinds of things. And thankfully that particular one did change. 93 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: Yes, thankfully. And you know there are lawyers, there are 94 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: animal rights advocates and in geos who say the time 95 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: has come to fully implement concepts of legal personhood for 96 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: so many smart animals. We're both huge fans of all 97 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: kinds of animals. I mean, I think you even based 98 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: on our friendship, I think you've given corvids a pass 99 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: in the bird anathema thing. 100 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: Well, as long as they don't come at me, as 101 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 2: long as they don't come at me toom, well, I 102 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 2: don't know, man, if they had a beef with me, 103 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: but I'm doing everything I can to stay away from 104 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: corven beefs. But yeah, there's a really great article in 105 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 2: the Economists that we're pulling some info from called gradualoiusly nervously, 106 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: courts are granting rights to animals. A little bit of 107 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: a teaser there for what's to come. But it's true 108 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 2: this is happening slowly but surely, based on certain tests, 109 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: right that, Like, the courts have decided that okay, if 110 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: we're going to determine whether something is property or you know, 111 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: a person, it has to meet certain criteria, you know. 112 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is something that was incredibly surprising to me. 113 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: Animals have been in court throughout history all the time. 114 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: There's this great book doctor Z found called The Criminal 115 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: Prosecution and Capital Punishment of Animals by an author named 116 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: Edmund P. Evans, and Evans points out, it's so nuts. 117 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: All sorts of animals went to court, They got excommunicated, 118 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: they got penalties up and up to and including the 119 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: death penalty, capital punishment like insects, reptiles, it larger animals 120 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: of course, dogs, cats and so on. 121 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: Whatever happened to that murderous Edgar Allan Poe ape sorry 122 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: spoiler alert for a one hundred year old plus, Yeah, 123 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: it was it was the ape that did it, That 124 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: did those murders in that titular morgue. But yeah, I 125 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: mean joking, But obviously this is true. This stuff does 126 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: date back much farther than one might think. I think 127 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: in addition to what did you mention insects? Ben's yeah, 128 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: crazy crazy, Let's maybe we start there. Yeah, Memoirs of 129 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Paris published by Buria 130 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: Saint Prix, and it's well done. I hope Casey would 131 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: be proud. But yeah, there are multiple missives in this 132 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: publication outlining some very strange cases, quite a few, in fact, 133 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:42,119 Speaker 2: ninety three cases beginning at the start of the twelfth 134 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 2: century into the middle of the eighteenth century. 135 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, this stuff includes hundreds, hundreds of prosecutions resulting in 136 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: excommunication or even execution, and it's still admittedly not a 137 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: complete record. Who went down? Who got popped in court? Well, caterpillars, flies, locusts, leeches, snales, slugs, worms, weavils, rats, mikes, moles, nkes, cocks, 138 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:20,239 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, dogs, cocks, and astes. 139 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: The parlance of the time we are in the book 140 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: were in the book. I love a weavil, you know, 141 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: I mean cotton didn't like them. Now they decimated crops. 142 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: And you gotta wonder if some of these were getting 143 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: accused of crimes against humanity, you know, for like infestations 144 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: and things like. 145 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: Sure, if it was a sort of theatrical or kangaroo 146 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: court turtle doves, goats, mules, turtle dove ever, did anybody 147 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: they know what they did? That's fair, that's very unfair 148 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: to turtle doves, I'd argue. So the prosecution of these 149 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: various insects occurs in all sorts of places. They are 150 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: prosecuting fifteen nineteen, in seventeen eleven, in seventeen thirteen, in 151 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, in as far as like eighteen sixty 152 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: six in Slavonia, And to your point about the idea 153 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: of prosecuting animals for unfortunate events. In Posega in Slavonia 154 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty six, a large locust was seized and 155 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: put to death by being thrown into the water as 156 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: a representative of the entire species after a particularly unfortunate 157 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: swarm of locusts eight the entirety of the crops, like 158 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: years earlier, I guess it got held up in paperwork. 159 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: And then but several years later they were like, all right, well, 160 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: kill the big one. 161 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: I have to ask, though, Ben, like aren't these just 162 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 2: cases for extermination? Like, isn't it pretty progressive thinking for 163 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: this period in history to even have a semblance of 164 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: a notion of personhood for these types of creatures. I mean, 165 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: we know that people in the old days killed willy nilly, 166 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: usually without asking questions like why are these animals being 167 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: put on trial? 168 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: It's true, and it's a good question because we have 169 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: to remember this is at a period in history where 170 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: church and state were relatively inseparable, So there is some 171 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: symbolism to it. There's this idea power right right, We're 172 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: showing the authority of God by symbolically punishing this one 173 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: representative of these terrible, terrible locusts. 174 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 2: That makes sense. A similar situation in eighteen sixty for 175 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: at the UH. I'm gonna do a silent pe on 176 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: this one. The letter Nika in UH in Slavonia involved 177 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: a pig being tried and executed for having bitten the ears. 178 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, that's a horrible, horrible thing to have happened, 179 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: to be disfigured in this way. Bitten the ears off 180 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: of a baby? Not well, yeah, both ears off of 181 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: a one year old I guess that's not that's still 182 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 2: a baby toddler press. Yeah, man, that's I mean, I'm 183 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 2: sorry now I really feel bad about laughing. And basis, 184 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: that must have been terrifying experience for the child that 185 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: probably will you know, carry trauma along with them for 186 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 2: their entire life, not to mention the lack of ears. 187 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: The flesh of the the condemned pig was was thrown 188 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: to the dogs, and the the basically the man who 189 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: owned the offending pig was was essentially forced to pay 190 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: some you know, let's call it a They call it 191 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: a dowry here, which is interesting because that's such an 192 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: antiquated and I guess you know, that is the kind 193 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: of thing you start paying into early in a child's life, 194 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: you know, in a female child's life. It's almost like 195 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: a you know, saving for college or something, right, because 196 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: isn't it isn't it essentially like this raises the stock 197 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 2: of the individual by saying you have this big old 198 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 2: fat dowry you're gonna get if you marry this one. 199 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's like a yeah, it it commodified romance 200 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: and romance as as we understand it in the modern 201 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: West today. Wasn't so much a thing back in this time. 202 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: You know, marriage is very much a social contract. And yeah, 203 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: the court was doing their best. They said, look, you 204 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: own this pig. This pig mutilated this child, and our 205 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: concern is the court, is that it might get in 206 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: the way of her being married later. So you've got 207 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,719 Speaker 1: to put some money in it, because what else you 208 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: gonna do, right, that's what I Yeah, well what are 209 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: we are? We gonna let her be an engineer? Not 210 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: in Slomonia? 211 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: They said they did. They did say that. It's quoted 212 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 2: in the piece. So that's an example of a big 213 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: who definitely did a bad thing being squashed under the 214 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: iron fist of the law. 215 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: Right. Yes, the meat grinder of justice. 216 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: Yes, usually grinds pretty slowly, but in this case it 217 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: seemed to we're in a pretty steady clip, a little reactionary. 218 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: But also, you know, you can't grow back ears, not yet. 219 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: So okay, we know that during the the term dark 220 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: Ages isn't the most accurate term, but during some let's 221 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: say nadiers or low periods in the Middle Ages, courts 222 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: had a lot of problems. They still have a lot 223 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: of problems. Obviously, we live in the United States. The 224 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: courts of the time in the Middle Ages in Europe 225 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: were pretty spotty, with the record pretty fast and loose 226 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: with things. It's tough to know how often these courts 227 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: convicted animals of some sort of perceived crime, and will 228 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: probably never know the weirdest punishments that were given to 229 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: them as a result of this, but we do have 230 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: for the historical record a small percent a sneak peek 231 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: on some specific cases of animals on trial. 232 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: Ah, yes, many of which were assembled by I'm sorry 233 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: I ever did at that time, but sorry, still trying 234 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: to make Casey proud of me and some others you know, 235 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 2: who did investigate some of these cases throughout history and collected, 236 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: you know, some accounts. So there were often examples of 237 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 2: animals being condemned to be burned alive, which we also 238 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: know happened to people. 239 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: And which is also known as cooking. 240 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: That's right, that's correct. That well for yeah, exactly. The 241 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 2: terminology is difference, doesn't it, you know? With an animal, Well, 242 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: I mean it's usually eat slaughter an animal before you burn it, 243 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: but not in a lobster or a crab though you 244 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 2: have to boil that thing alive. It's the only way 245 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: to do it. My kid was like, we're watching it. 246 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: Is there no other way? Dad? Is there no other way? 247 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: Can't you kill it humanely? I mean, I guess you 248 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: can't because of the nature of the shell. I would 249 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 2: think you could like stab it with an ice pick 250 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: or something, then that would mess up the shell, and 251 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 2: the shell's part of the presentation. 252 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are all right. Your your mileage may vary, 253 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: but as far as I know, like in my own 254 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: personal experience, the most humane way to kill the lobster 255 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: is to place the tip of the knife behind the 256 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: lobster's eyes, right right around where the claws meet the body. 257 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: Interesting halfway halfway to was it the first joint? 258 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: They don't even mention that on the Gordon Ramsey Show. 259 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 2: Shame on them, because yeah, I mean, you know, you 260 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: don't want your seafood to have been dead for these 261 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: certain kinds, like muscles and stuff to have been dead 262 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: for too long, because then that's bad. Like muscles, if 263 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: they're closed, I believe that means they're dead and they 264 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 2: can be really bad for you they have like rotted 265 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: or whatever. But if you kill it immediately and then 266 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 2: boil it, what's the harm in that? Sorry, I'm on 267 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: this whole crab and lobster humanitarian kick here. Ben. 268 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: The thing is, they're delicious, though, they are really really are, 269 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: really really good. 270 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 2: So during some of what is being referred to in 271 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 2: this account as the darkest periods of the Middle Ages, yeah, 272 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 2: that's when we have some of these discrepancies in records. 273 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 2: So we have beasts being burned alive. We have that 274 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 2: taking place kind of in the back half of the 275 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: seventeenth century, which is actually, you know, as many of 276 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 2: you may know, where people start to get a little 277 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: more enlightened, people start to exhibit a little bit more empathy, 278 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 2: so it's a little unusual to kind of have such 279 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 2: a cruel treatment of animals, which obviously, you know, as 280 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 2: time progressed and people started getting a little smarter, animals 281 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: were looked at with much more empathy and treated with 282 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 2: much more kindness. You know, the whole idea of like 283 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: the spit turning dog and all of that sort of 284 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: went out the window, right. 285 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, And look, they were always burned alive. Sometimes they 286 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: would be slightly singed, like toasted a little and then 287 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: asphyxiated before they were thrown to the flames. Because dying 288 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: by fire is just a terrible death. And then sometimes 289 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: they were even buried alive, which seems part of the 290 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: dark pun incredibly inhumane. In fourteen seventy four, in a 291 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: magistrate crew sentenced a rooster to be burned at the 292 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: steak for quote the heinous and unnatural crime of laine 293 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: and egg. I'm sorry, yeah, it's just the rooster was 294 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: caught with an egg, and so they said the rear legs. 295 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: They don't it was just around the egg. And they said, 296 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: this is not God's work. I see, I see, And 297 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: I get the feeling. I'd love to hear your thoughts 298 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: on this, folks, get I get the feeling here that 299 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: a lot of these trials are show trials, meant for 300 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: the community right for them to say, Okay, someone is 301 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: doing something. 302 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, a little less brutal, but 303 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 2: something along the lines of the Spanish Inquisition, you know, 304 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: where it's meant to make an to make an example 305 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: out of certain individuals in there. But it's weird, though, 306 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: because you know this, this implies a lot of sentience 307 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 2: on the part of the animals. It's like, look here, 308 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: other dogs, see what we've done to your to your littermates. 309 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 2: You know who wronged us. Now you go behave yourself. 310 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: Now at that for this example that we've made, will 311 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 2: teach you to eat children's ears. Yeah, well you hang 312 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 2: around eggs, you cock. I'm sorry, I'm never gonna know. 313 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 2: But it's it's a little weird, like what were they 314 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 2: what were they thinking? I mean, you did make the 315 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: great point bend that it is also sort of the 316 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: exercising of a sort of spiritual power. Perhaps that maybe 317 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 2: they're they're expressing some kind of intent that will then 318 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: in their minds carry over to the other animals. But 319 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 2: to the point of the kind of community affair, like 320 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 2: who are they demonstrating this for the owners of other animals, 321 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 2: lest they, you know, harbor satanic impulses in their chickens. 322 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: I think it comes from humanity's great need to have 323 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: bureaucracies look like they're doing something about our problem. So 324 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: it's a big show in town. In the case of 325 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: this poor rooster, the whole town shows up, the poor people, 326 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: the wealthy people, they show up, and the executioner who 327 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: is killing this rooster apparently finds three more eggs inside it. 328 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: This obviously is apocryphal. This is probably a legend. A 329 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 1: lot of these things are legend, but there are so 330 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: many stories about animals being put on trial and executed 331 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: in previous centuries leading up to the nineteenth century that 332 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: it's it's virtually certain a couple of these silly, weirdly 333 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 1: disturbing things did occur in real life, and it's something 334 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: that the animal rights movement was aware of. If we 335 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: fast forward hundreds and hundreds of years to the nineteen seventies, 336 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: then we hit the modern animal rights movement, which I 337 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: think puts a lot of gas in the fire for 338 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: the concept of legal personhood. 339 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 2: And it's interesting that these early examples of animal trials 340 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: are not to the benefit of the animals at all. 341 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: They're animals being used and abused publicly some sort of 342 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: misguided attempt at making a statement, you know what I mean. 343 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 2: They're not like really like the chicken was never going 344 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: to get off, you know what I mean, Like that 345 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 2: it was always it was always going to be curtains 346 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 2: for the pig, that the baby's ears as it should 347 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 2: have been, that was a menace. That pig was a menace. 348 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: Pn Do they get to testify though, Do they get 349 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: to oint through their side of the story, the character, right, 350 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: do they have someone show up like a babe and 351 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: say it's that's that'll do? 352 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: That was some pig, that was Charlotte's web. Yeah, they're 353 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 2: very similar. 354 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: They're a little the common out. 355 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 2: They sure do U delightful film and delightful book and 356 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 2: delightful animated film. But we digress. So now we're entering. Yeah, 357 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: during the nineteen the twentieth centuries, we don't see much 358 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: of this at all, understandably, but then once you start 359 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 2: getting into to your point, ben, the idea of animal liberation, 360 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: you have books like The Jungle, you know, that come 361 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: out that really get people thinking about the inhumane conditions 362 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 2: and the frankly you know, disgusting conditions in slaughterhouses and 363 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 2: commercial you know, meat packing facilities and whatever they might be. 364 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 2: Peter Singer comes out with a book in nineteen seventy 365 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 2: five called Animal Liberation, and he kind of lays out 366 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: this really interesting timeline of human kind or humanity's relationships 367 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: to animals, you know, showing that they really are valuable companions. 368 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: You know, the idea of amount you know, you know, 369 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 2: a steed, whatever it might be, or like the way 370 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: we've interacted with animals for just thousands of years. 371 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this brings a paradigm shift for a lot 372 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: of people. Now, of course, the human experience is vast 373 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: and it contains multitude, dudes, And we do want to 374 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: shout out the multiple communities throughout history that have always 375 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: refused to consume animal flesh. Right, there were precedents for 376 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: this millennia and millennia back. Peter Singer argues that a 377 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: lot of the justification for the way animals are treated 378 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: today comes from speciism. It's a term he credits to 379 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: a guy named Richard Ryder. Specism is basically humans having 380 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: main character energy, Right, the prejudice is that we as 381 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: humans are inherently better or more deserving of things than 382 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: other non human life forms, which honestly is the way 383 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: it goes, right, Like, it's not unfamiliar as a concept 384 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: to many people. And Singer compares this speciism to fundamentally 385 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: un clean things like racism and sexism, And he says, 386 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: you know, if possessing a high degree of intelligence does 387 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: not entitle a person to use another person for their 388 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: own nefarious ends, then why doesn't that apply to humans? 389 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 2: Right? 390 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: Like, if you elephants are intelligent. Cetaceans are intelligent, the 391 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: cephalopods intelligent. The more we learn about animals, the smarter 392 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: they appear to be. There was also speaking of bees, 393 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: a recent study I read that indicates the humble bumblebee phrase. 394 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: I love the humble bumblebee has dreams and goals in 395 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: a primitive form of consciousness. 396 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 2: He made a whole movie about him, you know, with 397 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 2: Jerry sein voiced by Jerry Seinfeld. You don't get voiced 398 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 2: by Jerry Seinfeld for nothing, you know, unless you got 399 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 2: a real story to tell. 400 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: Wasn't there another film around the same time about an 401 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: Well there was Ants. 402 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 3: Oh oh, nailed it, and then they're out there, Well 403 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: there there was a bugs life, and Ants was like 404 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: basically identical to a bugs life and in a similar 405 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 3: way that Charlotte's Webb and Babe have a lot in common, 406 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 3: you know, it probably more parallel thinking than anything. 407 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 2: I think they actually came out almost at the same time, 408 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 2: so I'm thinking, yeah, but yeah, apparently there there is 409 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: a if you're into internet, Shenani Green, you can't find 410 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: a gift of the b movie. That's the whole movie 411 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 2: sped up to like five thousand percent and and and 412 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 2: it's contained within a single gift, which I thought was clever. 413 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: Is it? 414 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: Is it watchable? You like? 415 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,239 Speaker 2: No? It makes your friend, it makes your brain, all right, 416 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: And you don't get the delightful voice stylings of Jerry Seinfeld. 417 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: Oh well, if they're not doing it with a sounding, yeah, 418 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: it's a gift. 419 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: That's crazy. 420 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: So nineteen eighty three, this guy named Tom Reggie comes 421 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: out with a book, The Case for Animal Rights, and 422 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: argues along similar direction right that have been put out 423 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: by Singer earlier. And so he delves into philosophical axioms 424 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: and implications for this, and he says, let's think about 425 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: Kant and the categorical imperative, which means a person is 426 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: not simply a means to an end, but an end 427 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: unto themselves, Like your presence is a present, and so 428 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: you have equal rights as a life form in comparison 429 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: to anybody else, be the pauper or be they prince. 430 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: And this is interesting because the way that Reagan is 431 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: writing about this, he's using cause as a foundational piece 432 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: of his argument. Button the Kart and other Enlightenment philosophers 433 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: they didn't give a penny farthy about animals they did 434 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: not care. 435 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: No, they certainly were more of the proponents of the 436 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 2: idea of animals being lower, you know. But it's interesting 437 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 2: because you can, you know, this idea of personhood and 438 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: this you know, this idea of being a means to 439 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: an end, and like what is the value of life? 440 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: You know? Is the question here? And obviously we know 441 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 2: that within the you know, the great game of nature, 442 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,239 Speaker 2: there are very brutal things that happen to animals of 443 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 2: all kinds. There are very brutal things that happen to humans. 444 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 2: We have evolved into doing it. It's a little bit 445 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 2: more diplomatically and the things that we do to hurt 446 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 2: each other, you know, rather than like animals literally feeding 447 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: on each other, you know, for sustenance. But it is 448 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 2: still all a question of like what is life and 449 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 2: which life form is more valuable like in the eyes 450 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: of some creator deity, Like where where does the question 451 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 2: really originate? You know? 452 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: Right? And who deserves to answer that question? Right? Who? 453 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 1: And for whom are they speaking for? College us? 454 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 2: Because we're people, because we're the best ones. 455 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: Right in the language that we made, you know. But 456 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: I bet whales when they decode whale song, they're gonna 457 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: We're gonna learn so much about epic trash talk. 458 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: Dude, they're so pissed. I mean, look at them now 459 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: and you. They're attacking boats and stuff, and like, I mean, 460 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: I know that you mentioned having a contact with I 461 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 2: believe Noah or one of the you know, the weather 462 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 2: kind of services. But like the way the oceans are 463 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: heating up right now, it's bad because of human involvement. 464 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 2: Let's just be real, Uh, it's really really bad for 465 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: animals and for the ecosystem of the ocean. So you're right, Ben, 466 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: if you could decode whale song and dolphin clicks, it'd 467 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: be a lot of middle finger talk, a lot of 468 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: f's and jeffs toward you know, guys like us. 469 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: A lot of diss tracks guys like us meaning humans. 470 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: And if you are listening and you happen to be 471 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: an artificially created intelligence, well sorry, Bud, you're probably gonna 472 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: get lumped in with us land lubbers as well count 473 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: Descartes and other contemporaries of theirs, folks like Hobbes. They 474 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: all said basically like you said, no, humans have no 475 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: duty to animals, and content at some point says, well, 476 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: you know, our treatment of other non human creatures. It 477 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: might in some way inform the way we treat our 478 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: fellow humans. And Descartes said, look forget it. You guys 479 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: are crazy. You guys are bonkers and bananas. This is 480 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: a kangaroo court. Animals don't have souls, they ain't got 481 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: no souls, and they're automata, you know, So why are 482 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: we talking this way? 483 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 2: Well, A lot of stuff's from the Bible bend, I mean, 484 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: the idea of the beasts of the field and all that, 485 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 2: and the idea of that animals were put there for 486 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: us to like, enjoy and to use, you know, I mean, 487 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: I think, I mean, it has to to me. A 488 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 2: lot of this stuff comes from descriptions in the Bible 489 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 2: of you know, the order in which God created life, 490 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 2: and there is a hierarchy, a very clear hierarchy laid 491 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: out in Biblical you know, creation myths. I will call 492 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: them no offense. That's just my take on it. I 493 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 2: think I'm allowed to have that, and it reads like 494 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: a myth. Whether you believe it to be accurate or not, 495 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: you can still see it as something that fits into 496 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: that type of story. 497 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: One hundred percent Man, one hundred percent. And you know, 498 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: these philosophers and these animal rights activists, they do have 499 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: a lot of similar DNA and they definitely all have 500 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: good intentions. If we look at Singer and Reagan along 501 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: with other activists, we see that their investment in the 502 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: idea that non human life forms deserve, you know, not 503 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: to be terrified all the time. That idea, that exercise 504 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: of empathy comes from an understanding that these creatures can suffer, 505 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: they can experience pain, and if one can avoid inflicting 506 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: pain on another living thing, why wouldn't you avoid it. 507 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: It's it's weird because like that sounds all well and good, 508 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: and a lot of us listening today we are omnovores, 509 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, I get it. Factory 510 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: farming is terrible, terrible, terrible. I do love a bacon cheeseburger. 511 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: Though, It's true. And and you know, props to certain individuals 512 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: like in the farm to table community or in the 513 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 2: you know, culinary community, even like Gordon ramsay, you can 514 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 2: come off it's a bit of a jerk sometimes, like 515 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: in that episode with the crab that I was mentioned, 516 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 2: even though he was he did try to talk her through. 517 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: It was nice to her there is an episode of 518 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: one another. He has so many shows, he's been on 519 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: the air for so long, where he has his he 520 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 2: he creates a turkey pen in his backyard and teaches 521 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: his kids about turkeys for slaughter. You know, I mean 522 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 2: it is an understanding from the start that they will 523 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: be raised to be slaughter for Christmas dinner. So at 524 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 2: the very least, it's teaching them where food comes from. 525 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 2: And then not like it's some sort of magical thing 526 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: that just appears, you know, shrink wrapped for you in 527 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: the grocery store. So at the very least, like certain 528 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 2: cultures that you know, it's very important for them to 529 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: use every part of an animal that they kill, I 530 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 2: think it's important to know where food comes from and 531 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: at the very least to have respect for the creature 532 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 2: that you're consuming killing. Not to get all peeda on anybody. 533 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: Check out check out our earlier episodes on stuff they want, 534 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: you know, because I think we are one hundred percent 535 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: on the same page, or at least the same cattle pin. 536 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 2: Here. 537 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: The idea that the idea of legal personhood. It might 538 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: sound wackado if you've never heard this concept before, because 539 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: you would say, well, if it's not a person. How 540 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: can it have personhood? We'll get to that. The best 541 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: way to approach it is to realize that. Surprisingly, a 542 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: number of court cases have tested this concept. They have 543 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: expanded the legal standing of animals both as property and 544 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: as thinking individuals, which is fascinating. You know, there's no 545 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 1: shortage of people attempting to improve the lives of non 546 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: human animals through things like animal welfare laws. Right, let's 547 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: make things a little less horrifying for these creatures before 548 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: they are executed and you know, cut into pieces and 549 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: shipped off to the grocery store. 550 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 2: That's right. And you know the charge for these types 551 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: of efforts is usually led from places that you might expect, 552 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 2: like California, where a lot of these progressive sort of 553 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 2: ideas start. In this case, a ballot initiative also known 554 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 2: as a referendum, was held that would require larger spaces 555 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 2: for farm animals, you know, larger spaces for caged farm 556 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 2: animals such as chicken, and even places such as the 557 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 2: European Union, Taiwan, in India, some parts of Brazil and 558 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 2: California have also banned cosmetic testing on animals. And I 559 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 2: believe there are certain places as well ben that have 560 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 2: cracked down on circuses using elephants. Yes, because of you know, 561 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 2: those small kind of you know, the type conditions in 562 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 2: which they're held when they're traveling, you know, on those 563 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 2: kind of caravanning type vehicles, and just the fact that 564 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 2: again to your point earlier been elephants know what's up, 565 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 2: you know, they know, and they can be sad. 566 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: Yes, they can be sad. They can also elephants do 567 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: a lot of things that humans would fundamentally recognize. Elephants 568 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: can become just like primates. Elephants can become acclimated to 569 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: fermented drinks, they can get into booze and then they 570 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: just run around and party whatever human settlement they have. 571 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: They can get frustrated. They do remember, they remember across decades, 572 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 1: very very smart animals. And so we see a lot 573 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 1: of we see a lot of conversation regarding things like 574 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: not just factory farming or the livestock trade, but we 575 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: also see arguments that zoos are essentially a super max 576 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: prison for animals, right, and are we helping or hurting 577 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 1: when we keep some of these creatures away from the wild. Personally, 578 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: and this is just my opinion personally, I believe that 579 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: zoos and conservation efforts do a huge, irreplaceable and incredibly 580 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: important job preserving biodiversity on this planet. And and there 581 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: you know, the tiger, of course is not happy in 582 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: a cage, But there are more tigers in Texas right 583 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: now than there are in the entirety of the wild. 584 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 2: Well, if I'm not mistaken, I know for a fact, 585 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 2: like the Atlanta Aquarium and in the Atlanta Zoo, a 586 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 2: lot of the animals that are in there, like couldn't 587 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 2: survive in the wild because they've been injured in some way, 588 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: or I think some of the beluga whales at Atlanta 589 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 2: Aquarium were actually rescued from some like kind of weird 590 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 2: Mexican Mexican amusement park. They were like held in some 591 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 2: sort of weird, nasty tank under a roller coaster and 592 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 2: they were from there. So to your point, I think 593 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 2: that's it's easy to have that misconception, I think, And 594 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 2: it can vary certainly depending on where where you're talking about. 595 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 2: But there are definitely zoos and the zoo keepers who 596 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 2: are there to do like a real service, you know, 597 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,280 Speaker 2: towards these animals and to have them have a quality 598 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 2: of life. They wouldn't be able to have in the 599 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 2: wild because they would probably either be like cast out 600 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 2: of their group for having some you know, the disability 601 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: let's just call it, I guess, or wouldn't make it 602 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 2: because they don't have the you know, the ability to survive. 603 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: Right Like how a man eating tiger or a man 604 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: eating lion is usually going to be a creature that 605 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: has somehow maybe injured its teeth due to old age 606 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: or something. It resorts to hunting humans because it has to. 607 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: It is handicapped in some way. And you know, there 608 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: there's really weird legal precedents here. Let's go to Iowa, 609 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: the Animal Legal Defense Fund suit a private zoo for 610 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: infringing on the Endangered Species Act that's supposed to protect 611 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: wild animals in the United States, the ALDF one, and 612 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: so the US Department of Agriculture took away the zoo's license, 613 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: they revoked the zoo's ability to operate. And then the 614 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: same organization, Animal Legal Defense Fund, went over to Oregon 615 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: and they said, look, Oregon law lets victims of violence 616 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: sue for compensation, sue for redress. So we are going 617 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: to file a lawsuit on behalf of not an eight 618 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: year old human, but an eight year old racehorse named 619 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: Justice because Justice was found frostbitten and malnourished and their 620 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: owner should be convicted of neglect. Now that court case 621 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: didn't go through immediately, but it became the subject of 622 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: an appeal. And if we look at the legal records, 623 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 1: we see more and more places, like I was talking 624 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: about this on stuff they want you to know in Germany, right, 625 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: more and more places are legislating this idea. They're saying 626 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: animals are sentient beings. 627 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 2: That's right. And there have been laws crafted around that, 628 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 2: referred to as sentience laws, which unfortunately have not had 629 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 2: a whole heck of a lot of impact. In the EU, 630 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 2: for example, something called the Lisbon Treaty, and also in 631 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 2: New Zealand that would qualify as these kind of sentience laws, 632 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 2: and again that they've had mixed results and largely not 633 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 2: a whole heck of a lot of traction has been 634 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,720 Speaker 2: gained from them. For example, there have been zero cases 635 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 2: that have come to court in New Zealand. But New 636 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 2: Zealand did amend its Animal Welfare Act to give this 637 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 2: sentient status to animals as recently as twenty seventeen, and 638 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 2: in the United States, there are pet custody laws, which 639 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 2: you know, govern I guess the idea of animal cruelty 640 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 2: or just you know, because I mean there is a 641 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:49,879 Speaker 2: thing called animal cruelty, isn't there? 642 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely, And it's something that goes past the 643 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: idea of health codes. Right, So you can get in 644 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 1: trouble if you're killing animals and unhygienic way such that 645 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: it might harm other human beings. And you could also 646 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: get in trouble if it's clear that you are just 647 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: being willfully cruel or you are you know, God forbid 648 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: torturing an animal for some reason. And to a lot 649 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: of animal rights advocates, many of whom are in the 650 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: crowd today expanding these existing welfare laws writing new laws, 651 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 1: it doesn't go far enough, you know what I mean, Like, 652 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: it doesn't it's not quite there. We have so many precedents. 653 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of that divorce law too, Like what was 654 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: it the animal custody laws. Divorce is never a happy thing, 655 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: and one of the things you have to deal with 656 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: is figuring out who gets what when you separate. 657 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,320 Speaker 2: So why did you just let the dog like run 658 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 2: to whichever parent that they prefer heartbreaking. And at that point, 659 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 2: come on, boy, come on boy, you know you love you? 660 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 2: Who loves you? You love your daddy, You love your daddy, 661 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:02,439 Speaker 2: Come on boy. 662 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: I hope no one has ever been of this. 663 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,320 Speaker 2: I mean, it's silly sounding, but you're right. It's also 664 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 2: sad because, yeah, an animal that's purchased jointly is ultimately 665 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 2: a you could consider it a piece of property. But 666 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 2: in this situation, it is taking into account the animal's 667 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 2: uh preference, which honestly, I mean, I'm not trying to 668 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 2: be a jerk and safety well, yes, of course that's 669 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,240 Speaker 2: that's its own thing. But how can you really determine 670 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 2: the animal's preference? Yeah, a lean that we can't speak dog. 671 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 1: You know, it depends on the animal, right, And also 672 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: what are you gonna Also what are you going to 673 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: do in that hypothetical situation where you say, here, boy, 674 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: come to the wood you like the best. If it's 675 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: a cat, it doesn't matter because the cat's not going 676 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: to run at you. 677 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, cat will eat all of our eyes when we die, 678 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 2: I mean, sure, the. 679 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 1: Or if you sleep too long, and I say, I 680 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: got two cats right now, doctor Venkman. I don't like 681 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,840 Speaker 1: the way you're looking at. But the the other idea 682 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: here that that you're getting, that that I really appreciate 683 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: is you know, some animals don't express a preference. Are 684 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 1: you gonna say, ooh, the the beta fish likes me 685 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: more or we all know that Roderick, our hermit crab, 686 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: loves me, not you. That's why we're breaking up. 687 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, exactly, that's the one thing you did this, 688 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 2: Roger the gold fish. You broke our home in pieces 689 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,839 Speaker 2: with your obstinate ways. But like again, you know, it 690 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,839 Speaker 2: goes into the whole idea of what is sentience and 691 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 2: what at what level does is something considered to be sentient? 692 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: You know? 693 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 2: And and and is it exclusively tied to feeling physical pain? 694 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,439 Speaker 2: Or is it about things like metacognition you know the idea, yeah, 695 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 2: or to be able to acknowledge yourself as a self 696 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,839 Speaker 2: or get to in a minute. But isn't there a 697 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 2: thing like like a mirror test the mirror comes into play. 698 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, the mirror tests. The video test is another 699 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 1: version of that. And there's this idea. There's also the 700 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,839 Speaker 1: huge problem at the heart of the issue, which is 701 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: that you know, humans still don't have a good definition 702 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,399 Speaker 1: of intelligence nor a good definition of consciousness. The more 703 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: we learn about the bring, the more we realize that 704 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: people have no idea what's going on up there. 705 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,400 Speaker 2: So I mean not really not in a real surface 706 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 2: level understanding. But like even when we started getting the 707 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 2: questions of like what is the soul? You know, we 708 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 2: talked recently on stuff that I don't want you to 709 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 2: know video about a book about DMT called I Believe 710 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 2: the God Molecule where that posits that, like the pituitary 711 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,919 Speaker 2: gland is the seat of the soul. But even that 712 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 2: is just like conjecture. You get to this point where 713 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 2: science and kind of philosophy sort of intersect, but there's 714 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 2: there's never really like a hard answer to what is 715 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 2: a soul? But we do know that, like we have 716 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 2: things in us that allow us to think about things, 717 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 2: think about thinking, like to your point, Ben and to 718 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 2: you know, have a sense of self in the sense 719 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 2: of empathy, and what is that? Is that just a 720 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 2: higher level brain function or is that something that you 721 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 2: might call a soul? And if it is, do animals 722 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,399 Speaker 2: have that? And if they do, what makes them any 723 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 2: different than us? 724 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: Right? So it starts with philosophy, it goes into the 725 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: legal system, and then it also enters the realm of 726 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: scientific inquiry. You know, if you are an animal advocate, 727 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: as we are on this show in full transparency, you're 728 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,919 Speaker 1: going to argue that a lot of these laws, well 729 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: intentioned and narrow as they may be, a lot of 730 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,360 Speaker 1: them fail at the main mission. They don't protect animals 731 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 1: from cruel treatment, they don't protect them from captivity, and 732 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: some very highly intelligent species think of the great apes, 733 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 1: think of elephants, the octopus, et cetera. They shouldn't be 734 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:09,319 Speaker 1: treated as property at all, but as fundamentally beings with rights. Again, know, 735 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 1: it sounds a little crazy, but it's not as nuts 736 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 1: as you might it might appear on first blush. A 737 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: legal person does not have to be human. It's so 738 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: weird and confusing, but think about it. Think about like 739 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: citizens United. We've already done this with corporations. Companies have 740 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,879 Speaker 1: been legal persons for some time. I mean, I think 741 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: it was what not just companies, but other like places 742 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 1: like Fiddler's Green and Neil Gaiman's The Sandman. 743 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 2: Absolute. 744 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Twenty seventeen, New Zealand again granted legal personhood to 745 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: a river, and this was a move to boost power 746 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,359 Speaker 1: of the local community that was trying to protect it 747 00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,439 Speaker 1: and preserve the ecosystem. It also reminds me of that, Oh, 748 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: what's the tree itself? Yeah, that always comes to your callback. 749 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love the tree that owns itself. But Ben, 750 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:14,799 Speaker 2: you mentioned the Wanganui River being granted personhood in order 751 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 2: to allow you know, indigenous tribes the ability to protect it. Right, 752 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,919 Speaker 2: That's usually not what we think of when we think 753 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 2: of like, you know, it's giving personhood to like corporation 754 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,280 Speaker 2: that's for the for their own protection, for their ability 755 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 2: to a nefarious things. I like the idea of granting 756 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 2: personhood to a body of water or perhaps a tree, 757 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 2: to give the ability of others to you know, safeguarded 758 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,399 Speaker 2: against harm. In this very same year as the Wanganui 759 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 2: River case, the High Court of Uttarakhand in India. Forgive 760 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 2: me for not being native speaker and probably portraying that pronunciation, 761 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 2: but they gave legal personhood to the Ganges River. You 762 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 2: may have heard, very very famous and sacred river, you know, 763 00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 2: and the Hindu faith and the Yamuna River in that territory. 764 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 2: But India's Supreme Court actually reversed that decision. 765 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 1: Interestingly, and as we're going to see. There are many 766 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:24,040 Speaker 1: back and forths in this continuing conversation, from the ancient 767 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: days of ceremonially butchering the biggest locust all the way 768 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 1: to the modern day of does this elephant know it's 769 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: an elephant? There's a lot more to explore. So we're 770 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: gonna call this part one of our continuing series on 771 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,400 Speaker 1: animals on trial. 772 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, continuing at very at least for one more episode, 773 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 2: but who knows. You know, we've been known to bring 774 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 2: back these series willy nilly, you know, at our own discretion. 775 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,799 Speaker 1: If we find a good trial, oh yeah, you know, 776 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:53,719 Speaker 1: like next year. 777 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 2: Then if we finally get that kangaroo trial we've been 778 00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 2: screaming about for this whole episode, we'll be there for it, 779 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 2: you will. But in the means, I'm huge thanks to 780 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,879 Speaker 2: doctor Z for pulling research together for this epic two parter. 781 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:12,920 Speaker 2: Huge thanks to Max the freight train madman, maniac killo 782 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 2: Kangaroo Court participant. Perhaps we don't know. We'll have him 783 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 2: explain himself when he returns. Williams not to mention his 784 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 2: brother Alex Williams, who composed this theme. 785 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,960 Speaker 1: And huge huge thanks to the Man the myth legend 786 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,360 Speaker 1: guest super producer Pull Mission Control Decans big thanks to 787 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 1: Christopher Hasiotis Eve's Jeffcoat. Oh, Gabe Lucier. 788 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 2: I can't forget about Gabe. Check him out over on 789 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 2: this Day in History class. And Ben, thank you to 790 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,920 Speaker 2: you for being my co counsel on this litigious journey. 791 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,320 Speaker 1: Objection Sustain sustained Kangar record. 792 00:49:52,520 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, Pooks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 793 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,400 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 794 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:06,480 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.