1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Quody doors, but Joseph's gotten more can't help myself. I 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: have always been fascinated by the music industry parts of it. 3 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by people that can create things 4 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: seemingly out of nothing, the ability to turn a phrase 5 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: are work with the instrumentation that that's what's so amazing 6 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: to me. Because I can't play an instrument, I can 7 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: only hear what they've created and the idea that they 8 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: can just summon these things at will many times. And 9 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: there's so many out there that are really tremendous and 10 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: that go their entire lives without recognition. But the case 11 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: that we're going to discuss today, that person doesn't fit 12 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: that bill. The person we're going to discuss today is 13 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: known worldwide. He's known worldwide. His band or former band 14 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: is known worldwide, even though he's been dead since nineteen 15 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: ninety four. Of course, you know who I'm talking about. 16 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: I'm talking about Kurt Cobain, the lead singer and guitarist 17 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: for the band Nirvana, and today we're going to talk 18 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: about his death. You say, why, Well, it just so 19 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: happens that a study has recently been completed and the 20 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: forensic analysis, according to this team that they have concluded 21 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: that Kurt Cobain's death, in their opinion, it's not a suicide, 22 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: it's actually a homicide. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 23 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: is Bodybags the early nineties, Dave. I can't really recall 24 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: what type of music I was listening to. Grunge is 25 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: kind of I've listened to it, and there's some of 26 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: those bands that fit within that genre that I did enjoy. 27 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: I enjoyed some of Nirvana's music, but it you know, 28 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: I was a grown man, you know, working on family, 29 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: full time job. I wasn't hanging out, you know, with 30 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: kids that are, you know, ten to fifteen years younger 31 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: than I. At that time, this was more their music, 32 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: but you couldn't escape Nirvana. I think one of the 33 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: things I have watched, I watched it several times over 34 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: the years. I don't know if you ever checked it out, 35 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: was the unplugged session that Vanna did on on MTV, 36 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: and it was it was amazing that those harmonies could 37 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: be created in that kind of acoustic uh environment. Uh. 38 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: And he was an amazing artist, I have to say that. 39 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: But I think that even though I didn't know a 40 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: lot about him at the time. I think that I 41 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: was shocked, you know, when I found out that that 42 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: he was dead, as much of the country was. We've 43 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: had so many of these artists over the years that 44 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: have succumbed to various things. It's always a shock. I 45 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: guess you didn't see it coming. But you know what 46 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: they say, Dave still Waters run deep, right. 47 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting when you talk about grunge music, Joe, 48 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: there's like the uh the four big ones you've got 49 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: uh Bane with they're kind of like, yeah, you they're 50 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: at the top of the pyramid, you know, because because 51 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: of Kurt but Nirvana, sound Garden, Alison Chains and did 52 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: I say. 53 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: Soundgarden, Yes, you said sound Guard, Pearl Jam. 54 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: That was what I was is Pearl Jammin's and in 55 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: Nirvana were right up, you know, and it's I was 56 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: doing music radio at the time. 57 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking, you're right in the middle of this. 58 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you're right in the middle radio at this point. 59 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: But the thing is is that Nirvana and Pearl Jam 60 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: and sound Garden and Alice in Chains, they were that 61 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: that grunge music. Okay, it's like any other type of 62 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: music on the radio, it has to be able to 63 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: be it has to be a broad appeal, mass appeal 64 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: for radio to be able to sell it, to get commercials, 65 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 2: and so if you're running it. So grunge music had 66 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: a place on the air, but it didn't grow on 67 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 2: the area, did not grow in radio. I'll give you 68 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: an example in the mid to late nineties, one of 69 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: the band called Corn Okay, yeah, you remember what I'm 70 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: talking about. All right, all right, Well you realize that 71 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: band played in the Birmingham at the BJCC in downtown Birmingham, Alabama, 72 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 2: back in the late nineties, did not have one song 73 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 2: played on any radio station in that in that market, 74 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: not one and sold it out in thirty minutes. 75 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: You know. 76 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: It's like that's that that type of music that that 77 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: attracts a certain audience doesn't require mainstream media to become successful. 78 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 2: It finds its own place. And that's what I did. 79 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, and I understand I've heard 80 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: I've heard this description before that it was kind of 81 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: a you know, the eighties were so over the top, 82 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: and the term I like to use is Garrett, you know, 83 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: the big hair and you know the you know, the 84 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: spandex pants and all of that stuff, and the grunge 85 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: movement was the antithesis of all that. It's really, you know, 86 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: it's really it's sparse, I think, you know, to a 87 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: great degree, it's broken down, and amazingly it goes back 88 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: to the early roots. I think of popular music, you know, 89 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: back in the fifties, where it's the music is great 90 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: and fun, but you have these people were really poets. 91 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: I think the lyrics, you know, that they could create, 92 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, to kind of describe the world, though their 93 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: view many times was very very dark, very very dark, 94 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: but it just had this kind of grittiness to it 95 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: that I think appealed to a lot of people. And 96 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: you're right, you imagine, well, I know you can. But 97 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: for me as an outsider, you know, just looking at it, 98 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: I'm thinking if somebody he's trying to sell me something 99 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,559 Speaker 1: at a radio station, they say, well, you can play 100 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, whatever the hell it was White Snake 101 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: or something like this, you know, uh even Guns N' 102 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: Roses never been a fan or uh, you know, or 103 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: you can you can use these guys that look like 104 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: they having bathed, The hair looks creasy, they're not kept 105 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: and this music sounds like nothing you've ever heard before. 106 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: But for some reason it was and you know, it 107 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: caught or captured the zeitgeist of the time. People were 108 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: fed up with the commercial and kind of the the 109 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: plastic synthetic nature. I think of a lot of the 110 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: hair band music and all that, all that stuff that's 111 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: that's created. 112 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 2: I still think, me up, Joe. Here here, here's the 113 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: best explanation for Nirvana. Yeah, it smells like teen Spirit. 114 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: Go listen to it when when you get or listen 115 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: to it now, I don't care. You don't know the 116 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: words unless they're written out in front of you. You don't 117 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: know what's being said. You don't know what's being sung. 118 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: You can't nobody does. You know you're And the thing 119 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: is is that when Weird Al Yankovic wanted to do 120 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: a parody of smells like Teen Spirit, he meets with 121 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: Kurt Cobain and there purest of the grunge movie. He 122 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: would never meet with Weird Al Yankovic. Yeah, you know what, 123 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: because at his heart and soul he was a businessman. 124 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: He was an artist, but he was also a You 125 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: got to have a look. You can be an artist 126 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 2: and nobody buy your art, and you've got to have 127 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: a job to feed yourself, right, And Kobain knew that 128 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: he wasn't an idiot. He was not an idiot. People forgo. 129 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: You got to remember he was not an idiot. He 130 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: was an addict, and he was a lot of things. 131 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: He was a talented man, but he was not an idiot. 132 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: And he met he meets with Weird how and he's like, well, 133 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: you're not going to make it about food, are you. 134 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: That's all he could think of, weird out do and 135 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 2: eat it, you know. And so when Weird I was like, no, 136 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to do it the parody, make him fun 137 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: of how nobody can understand what you're singing. Yeah, And 138 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 2: he was like, oh that's great man. I will tell 139 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 2: you this. One little side note on the permission ask 140 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: is that Kirk Cobain did not play on the track 141 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: by where Dal That is one of those apocryphal stories 142 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: that comes out of it. But he did give his blessing, 143 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 2: which is the whole point. He thought it was funny, 144 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 2: he thought it was fine, and back then you had 145 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: to get permission to do that, you know, you couldn't 146 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 2: just rip it off. And that's what we do. A 147 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: whole show on something other than death and things like that, 148 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 2: it'd be entertaining for me. But anyway, look, Kirk Cobain, 149 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: though he was a he's not a victim of himself 150 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: or I mean, he's not a victim of circumstances. He 151 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: is an addict who became a big star. And it 152 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 2: was his death at twenty seven that made him a 153 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: part of the twenty seven club. If you're familiar with 154 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: that club, which you know to this day, it breaks 155 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: my heart when I see that twenty seven club, you know, 156 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: and you think of people like you know, Janis Choplin 157 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,479 Speaker 2: and Jim Morrison and. 158 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: Hendrick Yeah he was in there. So they were all 159 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: in the twenty seven club. Yeah, isn't that something? It's 160 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: always yeah, And not all of those deaths resulted from 161 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: necessarily self harm, and some of them were od's And 162 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: you know, talking about like Mama cass Uh, you know, 163 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 1: the big thing with her was always you know, choking 164 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: on the ham sandwich and all that sort of stuff, 165 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: and that's that's I think it is inaccurate. She had a. 166 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 2: Hard heart failure. 167 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: It was congestive heart failure. But you know, you think 168 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: about think about all of these people and there's always 169 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: a mystery, you know, that surrounds any death of a 170 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: famous person. Isn't it interesting how the countless numbers of 171 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: death that I have handled over the course of my 172 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: career as an investigator, including death that was at their 173 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: own hand, always there's always like this weird mystique with it, 174 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: you know, that comes along that it was something other 175 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: than as advertised. I'll never forget I was on I 176 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: was at CNN when CNN was still a thing with HLN, 177 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: and I had driven in on a Sunday morning day 178 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: to cover another case, some national case, and I think 179 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: I was on Actually was I owned with Susan Hendrix 180 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: maybe I can't recall anyway, When I walked in, they said, 181 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: we've got breaking news. Philip Seymour Hoffman is dead and 182 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: we want you to talk about this, you know. And 183 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: of course Philip, who are you believe, in my opinion, 184 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: is one of the finest actors of his generation, incredible actor. 185 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: He had an addiction problem, Yeah, and hadn't you know, 186 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: had fallen off the wagon. And you know, there's so 187 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: many there's so many little bits to these cases, I think. 188 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: And when you're and I've never worked a case involving 189 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: a major star that died as a result of something 190 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: that they had done to themselves. But I've always wondered, 191 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, being in the presence of someone that has died, 192 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: how hard is it to extricate yourself from the shock 193 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: and horror of Like if you're an EMMY investigator and 194 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: you're standing over the body of Kurt Cobain, is it 195 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: possible to stand there and say, this is just a citizen, 196 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: This is just a citizen, this is a fellow human being. 197 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: They have died. Let me work it. You know, I 198 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: think about Robin Williams arguably, and by the way, I 199 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: recommend everybody out there do this. If you want to 200 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: see what an excellent post wartum report looks like, read 201 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: Robin Williams's death scene investigation report. I cannot sing that 202 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: investigators praises high idea. We need, Oh we really do, 203 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: and if for no other reason, we need to do 204 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: it just to discuss how well the report. And I 205 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: know this sounds driest toast, but believe me, the documentation 206 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: of a case where someone has ended their life is 207 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: critical because this I do know, there's no one there 208 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: to witness it. Most of the time there's no one 209 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: there to hear the final words. But in Kurt Cobain's case, 210 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: there are people out there that believe that when he died, 211 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: he was in fact not alone. Dave. As we are 212 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: recording this right now, I want all of our friends 213 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: to know that. And this is a no note. You're 214 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: not supposed to do this in broadcasting on any level. 215 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: But I'm going to go ahead and do it. You 216 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: can yell at me later. Today's date is February the thirteenth. 217 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: You and I were just having discussion before twenty twenty six. 218 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: By the way, you and I were just having discussion 219 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: before we came on air. And I would say that 220 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: for you and I this week may have been one 221 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: of the busiest weeks we have ever experienced professionally because 222 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: of the Guthrie case. Would you agree with that? I mean, 223 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: I don't know about you. My wagon's dragon and my 224 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: axle's bustard. Right now, I am just dog tired. 225 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: You've made what seventy something appearances on network television in 226 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: multiple countries, I mean, not just in the US, but yeah, yeah. 227 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think it's seventy but it's three full 228 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: shows a day, yeah, And very very robust. Yeah, and 229 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: it's crazy and my you know, it's been you know, 230 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: all Guthrie all the time. And that's why this kind 231 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: of took me back, because my friends at I'm good 232 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: buddies with Jesse Weber. By the way, shout out to 233 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: Jesse if you get a chance, you got to check 234 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: out his new show, A standalone show comes on eleven 235 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: pm Eastern Standard Time, and he's gracious enough to allow 236 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: me on there. I've been working with him for you years. 237 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: I love that kid. I call him kid. And his 238 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: producer reached out to me and I thought, oh, here 239 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: we go. It's going to be Guthrie. And I think 240 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: this was Monday night, this previous Monday night. And to 241 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: my shock, when I talked to her, she's like, so 242 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: can you come on with Jesse tonight? We want to 243 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: talk about And I was waiting for Guthrie and she 244 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: said Kurt Cobain and I was like what what and 245 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: she's like, yeah, yeah, there is a report and not 246 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: just a report. It is a peer reviewed report scientific 247 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: analysis of Kurt Cobain's death from back in nineteen ninety four. 248 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: And this thing has been released and I was like, wow, okay, 249 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: because suddenly, you know, when you talk about a case 250 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: like we do, you know where we'll just go on 251 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: and on and on, you feel you're kind of saying 252 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: the same thing over and over again. And suddenly light 253 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: bulb went onto my brain and I found myself stimulated again. 254 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. It's like something I'm going 255 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: to have to dig into. So, yeah, that we've got 256 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: this report, don't we, Dave. 257 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: Well, Joe, there are some questions about his death that 258 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 2: are beyond emotional, beyond the fact that I don't want 259 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 2: this guy to be dead. I mean, there are actual, 260 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: real questions that I've been concerned with for many, many years. 261 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,239 Speaker 2: When you said we were going to talk about this, 262 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 2: my first thought was, I have always heard certain things. 263 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 2: I've always heard that he had a massive amount of 264 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 2: heroin in his system and he shot himself in the head. 265 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: Yes are those two things true? 266 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, they are. Well, I'll put it to you 267 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: this way. Let's go with the heroin first. First off, 268 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: as you have stated, Dave Kirk had a long standing 269 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: history of opioid abuse, specifically heroin, and one of the 270 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: things that happens with heroin is that as it begins 271 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: to metabolize in the body, it begins to break down 272 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: into various components. And one of the primary components, because 273 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: it's like the underpinning underpinning of the heroin itself is morphine. 274 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: All right, So when you're doing toxicology on someone, you're 275 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: looking actually at their lethal levels. Now, I think you 276 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: and I have had this discussion before. But anybody that 277 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:52,239 Speaker 1: dries out, okay, that is coming off, do you know 278 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: you go through that period of time. It's called being 279 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: dope sick. You know, and I know you have in 280 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: your own life. You have walked people through that process. 281 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: And it's a horror show, man, I mean, it really is. 282 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: And heroin in itself is probably one of the most 283 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: insidious drugs that has ever existed. I would say so. 284 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: With Kurk when he died, his level of morphine in 285 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: his system was actually at one point five to milligrams 286 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: per leader. That level with heroin is three times a 287 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: normal dosage, okay, And you think about that. And he 288 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: had not he had graduated from a treatment program at 289 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: some point time, but he was back on the dope. 290 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: He had recent and you can see this in report. 291 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: He had recent np w's which are needle puncture wounds 292 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, that are existent there that I think that 293 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: they actually observed at the scene, if memory serves me correctly. 294 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: So let's just say he's, you know, he's back on 295 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: the heroin train. Well as an addict. His level of 296 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: lethality is going to be disproportionate to everybody else. Say 297 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: that just kind of she was, I'm going to try 298 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: heroin for the first time, right, and it first off, 299 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: it takes more progressively for you to achieve that high, 300 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: and then you have to ask yourself, is this level 301 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: essentially incompatible with life? Okay, so this you're talking about, 302 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: he has been administered a bullus that is three times 303 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: the lethal level for a regular person. He's got this 304 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: on board. 305 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: One of the things, Yeah, sure, were you too much 306 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 2: for Let me stop you there, because yeah, whenever we 307 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: say three times, like I read a report that said 308 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: they had ten times the amount, right, and I'm like, okay, 309 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: Because it is a drug that as you begin your 310 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 2: life and addiction, you start off here where you take 311 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: a little bit and it gets you high, and then 312 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: as you use it more and more and more, you 313 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 2: it requires more and more and more to get high, 314 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 2: and So what you took when you started it was 315 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 2: enough to get you high. Six months from now, if 316 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 2: you use it every day, yeah, you're not going to 317 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: get high from the same amount. You're going to be 318 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 2: taking a lot more than you started with, depending on 319 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 2: how you go about this. But what I'm saying is 320 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: it's possible that six months into your addiction, if you 321 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: have that amount, that you're taking it six months and 322 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 2: take back to somebody who's never used it just like 323 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 2: you did six months earlier, and we inject that into somebody, 324 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 2: they die because your body builds up a tolerance to 325 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: this stuff. So it's ridiculous to say that he had 326 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 2: ten times the amount of a normal person. Well, I'm 327 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 2: gonna be honest with your friends. Normal people are not 328 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: addicted to heroin. They don't have anything in their system 329 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: if you want to use that as your base. So, 330 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: and the reason I say this is, and I told 331 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: you this, I'm I'm going to be very brief. Having 332 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 2: worked with recovery, I've watched many people graduate programs. They 333 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 2: spend a year to eighteen months getting sober, and heroin 334 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 2: is so vicious. Yeah, and they graduate a program and 335 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 2: for the first time in many of their adult lives. 336 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: They're sober, and they've been sober for over a year, 337 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 2: and they're excited. They got a new life. Oftentimes they've 338 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 2: got a whole new beginning and they go back home. 339 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 2: They graduate the program, and they go back to home 340 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: and they use again, but instead of going back to 341 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: the beginning, they start after being cleaned for eighteen months 342 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 2: at the level they left. Yep, and they die. Yes. 343 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: Do I actually have had adult parents call and ask 344 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 2: a program, would you please warn them that about you know, 345 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 2: they can't use the same amount they used when they 346 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 2: and you're like, dude, you're telling me that you want 347 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: us to run a recovery program and then tell people 348 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: as they graduate, Hey, let me tell you how to 349 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 2: use so you don't die. I'm not going to do that. 350 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 2: That's ridiculous. They know the you know, it's just that 351 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 2: it makes no sense. If I was if it took 352 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 2: ten pounds before, it's going to take ten pounds now, 353 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 2: you know. And that's how our brains look, and that's 354 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 2: why people do what they do. It's why people die. 355 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: It's insanity. Yeah, and I hate it. I've actually worked 356 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: cases day. I'll give you two off the top of 357 00:23:55,280 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: my head of heroin ods that involve two people simultaneously. Sadly, 358 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 2: I had two teen boys that died in a drug 359 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: rehab center who they're a friend had come into the 360 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: center and these both of these kids had detoxed, and 361 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: when I got to the center to work the case, 362 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 2: one was laying on the floor with a tourniquet around 363 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: his arm. The other was laying in the bed. They 364 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 2: both had the frothy ademitous cone that I've talked about 365 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 2: before that was issuing from their mouths. Both of them. 366 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,959 Speaker 2: They were cyanautic. They were purple. That means that they 367 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 2: were in congestive failure, and I remember being very sad 368 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: about that, and you could see the staff was just 369 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 2: absolutely so. You know, these are the cases in the 370 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: medical legal world you never hear about. You never hear 371 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 2: about these. We always hear about homicides, right because that's 372 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: true crime, and it's kind of what we talked about. 373 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 2: But you know, in our world, in the medical legal world, 374 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: we cover everything, and some of the things, some of 375 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: the stuff that I've seen relative to drug abuse deaths. 376 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: First off, there insidious and they would shock the most 377 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: resilient people out there. I actually had two guys. I'll 378 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: never forget this again. A dual death. These two guys 379 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 2: had both been in the joint together in state prison 380 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: in Georgia. One got out two weeks before the other one, 381 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: and he promised to pick him up from the gates 382 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: of the jail and he said they were going to 383 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 2: specifically go and party, and they did. We found them 384 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: behind the old ge General Electric headquarters in Atlanta, and 385 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 2: I'll never forget it was in a jeep Cherokee suv. 386 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: They were backed up against the wall and he had 387 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: picked him up from the joint. They'd gone to southwest Atlanta, 388 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: bought heroin, went to this isolated location, backed in the car. 389 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: One guy. This is how strong it was. One guy 390 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: still had the needle in his arm and the other 391 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,719 Speaker 1: guy was still holding it between his fingers. And they 392 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: had a little cook cap they had created, you know, 393 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: because you have to have what they referred to as 394 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: the works, and so he had like an oversized aluminum 395 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: cap that's threaded like from a juice bottle or something 396 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: with a cotton swab in there. And they that they 397 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: had cooked in and they were going to draw it up, 398 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: and they had cooked in that and then you know, 399 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: each one of them had their own. It looked like 400 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: the needles that they looked that they were using were 401 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: like insulin needles. You know. Now you know one of 402 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: the big things the mystery with Kurt Cobain when he's 403 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: found dead, and this is highlight in the study, which 404 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: is very very curious. I have to admit, Dave, I'm 405 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: not here to completely poopoo the story and the study 406 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: in any way because Dave, every hypodermic needle they had 407 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: at that site was capped. And so that's a that's 408 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: that's a produm impossible. 409 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 2: If he dies of drug overdose, if he dies by 410 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 2: an injection of heroin on his own, he's by himself. Now, 411 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: is it possible that a drug it in the throats, 412 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 2: because I'm going to assume wrongly that he injected himself 413 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 2: with this massive amount of heroin and then he was 414 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: able to do something that most addicts, most users can't do. 415 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 2: They don't clean up as they go. Okay, it's just 416 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 2: not a normal procedure as somebody else has to. If 417 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 2: you're going to find a needle that's been capped, has 418 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: been used, somebody else did it, or they did it 419 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: when they woke up. 420 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: Well, you know, one of the interesting things, uh, and 421 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: I would I'll stay from my experience working cases in drugs, 422 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: so called drug houses, they used to be referred to 423 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: as shooting galleries, particularly when heroin was really in vogue. 424 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: That term started being used back in the early seventies, 425 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, back during the hippie times when heroin really 426 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: hit the streets, and heroin shooting galleries were actually very 427 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: interesting compared to say, for instance, like what they refer 428 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: to now nowadays. You've heard the term crack house, you've 429 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: heard the term trap house. It was kind of a 430 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: different environment because heroin addicts would kind of cluster together 431 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: and they would go to the shooting galleries and many 432 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: of them would take care of one another. So if 433 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: you use, if you use, then there would be someone 434 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: that is not currently high that if you needed anything, 435 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: they would, you know, to make sure you're covered with 436 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: a blanket or something like that, or maybe they would 437 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: clean up your works for you. And this has happened. Uh. 438 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: You know, in opiates have this interesting nature to them. 439 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: If you even go back to like the eighteen hundreds 440 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,719 Speaker 1: when you had openium dens and they had them all 441 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: over San Francisco, these sorts of places, and they would 442 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: smoking yeah, oh yeah, and they had they would smoke opium. 443 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: They had them in New York too. Actually no, well 444 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: wasn't until yeah, yeah, back in eighteen hundreds. Yeah, it 445 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: would have been legal, just like coke was legal, cocaine 446 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: was legal, you know, it's weed used to be legal, 447 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, all these years ago. But in the opium dens, 448 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: you would have facilitator. I hate to sound like I'm 449 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 1: in a businessman. You'd have facilitators. You'd have people that 450 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: would load the pipe for them, wo light it. The 451 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: individual that was using would smoke it and they would 452 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: actually lay on like a bed and just trip right 453 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: there and pass out and our trip and the individuals 454 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: would take care of them in they're the ones that 455 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: were facilitators, if you will. So it's got this I 456 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: think opium has this, opium opiates this sort of thing. 457 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: It's got this interesting kind of thing. But you know, 458 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: with with Kurt, he's up in this it's like this 459 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: garage apartment, right, and some people refer to the greenhouse apartment. 460 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: It's I've heard different different takes on it. At any rate, 461 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: he's in this place and he's there, man all by himself. 462 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: They're all by himself, you know, And I think about this, this. 463 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 2: Guy who there was some facilitator there helping him. 464 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we don't think there was. 465 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 2: You know, there was an electrician, right. 466 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it was, and the emt rolled up. There's 467 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: like a glass plane pane that is busted out, you know, 468 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: trying to get access, you know, to the room he's 469 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: laying on the floor. And of course the other piece 470 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: to this is that he's got, you know, this Remington 471 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: Model eleven twenty gage shotgun, which, by the way, interesting here, 472 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: the model eleven Remington is one of the earliest semi 473 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: automatic shotguns that was ever manufactured. It's got a unique 474 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: history too, and you can get in a twelve gage 475 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: in a twenty gauge and Kirk actually had the twenty 476 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: gauge first, and you know, he was actually firing bird 477 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,479 Speaker 1: shot out of this thing. So it's around that is 478 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: comprised of a lot of bbs, you know, perhaps up 479 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: to thirty bbs that are contained within this round and 480 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: it's merely used for killing killing small game. You can 481 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: go bird hunting with it. You're not going to go 482 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: out and try to take down an elephant with this, 483 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: but you know small game, you can take out grouse, pheasant, rabbit, squirrels, 484 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: you know this sort of thing, and it's a great 485 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: round for that. It's not as the energy delivery on 486 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: a twenty gauge is not as ferocious to say, like 487 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: a twelve gage shotgun. And remember the lower the number, 488 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: the lower the number you go engages as opposed to calibers, 489 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: the lower the number you go engages, the more powerful 490 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: the weapon is. Okay, So Europe in twenty twenty, twenty gauge, 491 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: sixteen gauge, twelve gauge, there's a ten gauge. I think 492 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: there's an eight gauge as well. That's becoming more and 493 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: more robust. So he had this twenty gauge Remington. There's 494 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: an ejected shell. There's questions about the port on this 495 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: weapon and the ejection port and where the round wound up. 496 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: The one thing I'll say is that with the ejection 497 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: of around first off, it's very unpredictable because again there 498 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: is no with a suicide, there is no witness to this, 499 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: and you don't know what the dynamics were of his 500 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: body when this round is popped. Off literally inside of 501 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: his mouth. When you read over Kirk Cobaine's autopsy report, 502 00:33:54,280 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: there's an interesting comment that it's made by the by 503 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: the pathologists that did the autopsy the Southern King County, Seattle. 504 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: They talk about how when you observe now at autopsy, 505 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: they would have opened his mouth very widely, and I 506 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: have my suspicions that they very well could have freed 507 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: his jaw up a little bit perhaps do that. I've 508 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: had to do that where there's kind of an incision 509 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: that's made where you have to free the jaw up 510 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: in order to observe intro or these are called intro 511 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: oral gunshot wounds or shotgun wounds in this case, so 512 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 1: that you can access it. Think about a dentist working 513 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: inside of a mouth and they have to work in 514 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: a very tight space. Okay, even with the dead, you 515 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: have to be able to get access to the mouth 516 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: to observe any kind of injury. We always check the 517 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: mouth anyway, in the throat and all these sorts of 518 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: things when we're doing autopsies to make sure the airway 519 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: is clear, that there's no observable debris. You know, it's 520 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: contained therein But the pathologist that was in charge of 521 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: this autopsy, Dave made a very interesting observation here. They 522 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: report that there was evidence of what's referred to as fouling, 523 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: and that's f O U L I n G fouling, 524 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 1: but no evidence of stipling. Now that that gives us 525 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: a bit of insight into the dynamic of this weapon 526 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: being discharged into his oral cavity. When the doctor looked 527 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: at this injury, that's up on the hard palette. If 528 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: you if you well, I'm not asking anybody out there 529 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: to stick your finger in your mouth, but if you 530 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: go to the rear of your mouth, the roof of 531 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: your mouth, hard area up there, which is referred to 532 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: as a hard palate, that's actually a bony structure that 533 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: is covered with the soft tissue the lining of the mouth. 534 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: He could actually appreciate a half moon shape up there. 535 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: That would give you the indication at an acute angle. 536 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: If you think about the end of a barrel. If 537 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: you were to press, say the end of a barrel 538 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: into a piece of plato, right, and you pull the 539 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: plato away and you look at it, you're gonna have 540 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: perfect circle. So pretend that's a mouth and you're having 541 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: to do it at like a really acute angle when 542 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: that weapon is pressed up in to the roof of 543 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: the mouth. If you think about it from the perspective 544 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: of the face of a clock from about the nine 545 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 1: o'clock position to the three o'clock position, there's this kind 546 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: of arcing semicircle right there that he notes that there's 547 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: fouling there, and that means that this area is is burned. 548 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: There's evidence of probably deposition on there that's blown into it, 549 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: but there's no stippling around it. Well, what does an 550 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: absence of stippling mean? That means that all of the 551 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: unborn burned powder was literally injected in to his skull 552 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: from the floor of the mouth. So we can take 553 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: away from that that this weapon was not held at 554 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: like a range, at like a great range. It was 555 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: actually it was actually pressed in. Okay, pressed in, and 556 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,919 Speaker 1: you have what's referred to as a heart contact or 557 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: a pressed contact gunshot wound dave. Most of the time 558 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: when you see these firearms related self inflicted shots like this, 559 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: that's generally one's own hand. Ok with this caveat let 560 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: me explain, just give me a little rope here. So 561 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: most people want to make sure that the injury they're 562 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,240 Speaker 1: going to sustain is going to be successful. So as 563 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: the weapon is pressed in, they will mightily press this 564 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: weapon in and it creates it'll create almost a perfect circle. 565 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: You see it all the time with handguns, weapons that 566 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: are pressed directly into the head. Okay, when it's really 567 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: difficult is if you've got someone that is attempting to 568 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: do this to another person with a weapon, what's our 569 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: natural response, Well, it's to pull our head away. The 570 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: only way you can really get this kind of pressed 571 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: contact when it's a homicidal event is you would have 572 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: to do something that's called shoring, which means that you 573 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: would the head, the opposite side of the head would 574 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: be pressed against a fixed object like a wall, and 575 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 1: you would hold them in place and press the weapon 576 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: tight and that way it creates this perfect seal and 577 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: you get this catastrophic injury because it's not just the 578 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 1: projectiles that are going into this area. It's not just 579 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: the soot and the smoke. It's this incredible discharge of hot, 580 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: expanding gas. There's like a little flame that extends. So 581 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: this injury was from front to back and from I 582 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: think it's from right to left. So it was slightly 583 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: off in this position and it enters into the cranial 584 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: vault there. Now here's the thing about the study that 585 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: they've done, and it's very intriguing to me when you 586 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: think about when you think about someone and we've talked 587 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: about this already, when you think about someone that is 588 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: under the influence of heroin almost a dream like state, okay, 589 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: maybe unconscious, completely unconscious. I've interviewed heroin addicts that have 590 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: just fixed out on the street and they can have 591 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 1: a conversation with you like it's just an everyday event 592 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: for them. Again, Dave, that goes back to the tolerance 593 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: that we were talking about. Then again, I've had other 594 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: people where I've had to put my hand on the 595 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 1: shoulder and like shake them. Hey, hey, hey, what what's 596 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: your partner's name? Which, what's his name? You know, because 597 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 1: there would be another guy there that was dead, if 598 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: he's if he is in a state that is dream like, okay, 599 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: in the state, is it possible that someone could have 600 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: taken this Remington could have taken this Remington model eleven 601 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: opened his mouth and created a press contact gunshot wound 602 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: in the roof of his mouth, and he would not 603 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: have been resistant to it. That's I think that that's 604 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: an interesting question, you know, from our perspective. 605 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 2: When you're talking about the volume here of heroin that 606 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 2: he's got on board, which has been articulated to be 607 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,399 Speaker 2: three to ten times stronger than what the normal person 608 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 2: could handle. Yeah, as a death level, he died. 609 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a lethal level. 610 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, So how long do you have because you have 611 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 2: to remember that if he is alone, then he was 612 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,240 Speaker 2: able to inject this massive amount of heroin, cap the needle, 613 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 2: put it neatly back into whatever little kit he had, 614 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 2: then grab the gun, place it into his mouth, and 615 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 2: pull the trigger. Yep, And he has to do all 616 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 2: that right after taking a massive amount of heroin that 617 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 2: would have knocked him out, because it did ended up 618 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 2: killing him. It was enough to kill the man, but 619 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 2: he was somehow able to survive that long enough to 620 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 2: get the gun. And you know, that's the part that 621 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 2: I have a little problem with. 622 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: That's the rub. And this is where toxicology meets the 623 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:24,919 Speaker 1: reality of firearms and also the drug dependency that that 624 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: he was operating in in that world, a world that 625 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 1: he was very very used to. 626 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:32,279 Speaker 2: It. 627 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: It's certainly a problem and I'll go ahead and say this. 628 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: You know you I already told you I was going 629 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 1: to say it. There's a principle that's put forth relative 630 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: to those that want to take their own lives. It's 631 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: called lethal redundancy, and so certain people won't guarantees that 632 00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,760 Speaker 1: certain outcomes are point to occur. Right. There's a book 633 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: that was written many years ago that was called A 634 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: Final Exit is the name of the book, and it 635 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,879 Speaker 1: was written by a guy named Derek Humphrey I think 636 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 1: is his name, and his wife had died of bone cancer. 637 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: Actually she died as a result of an ode that 638 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: he gave her in a cup of tea. He had 639 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: these really strong medications, and so it's from that that 640 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 1: you know, they don't call it unalive in yourself. They 641 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,240 Speaker 1: call it self deliverance, and it's it was, it's almost 642 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: this book is like a recipe book. And I'm not 643 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: there's no new revelations here. This thing's been out there forever. 644 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 1: But one of the things that's in that book, or 645 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: like guarantees, and I've worked several of these cases. I 646 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,399 Speaker 1: had a like the one that jumps to mind from 647 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: me is I actually had a lady, do you know 648 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: what what drug blister packs look like. You know that 649 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: the doctors used to give sample and this sort of thing, Dave, 650 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: This lady had five drug blister packs of ambient and 651 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,320 Speaker 1: she took all of that ambient. She took all of 652 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,400 Speaker 1: her high pertension medication. What else did she take? It 653 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: was just it was a huge cocktail of drugs that 654 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 1: she took. You said, well, Morgan, what does that mean, 655 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,919 Speaker 1: how does that play into redundancy? Oh? By the by, 656 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 1: she ran a warm bath that was right up to 657 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,720 Speaker 1: the top. So once she passed out, if the drugs 658 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: didn't kill her, she'd slipped beneath the waves or beneath 659 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: the surface of the water, and we found evidence that 660 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 1: there was uptake of water in her lungs. But she 661 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: also had a lethal dose of this cocktail that was 662 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 1: on board. And that's the redundancy. You know, somebody is 663 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: bound and determined to do this. One of the other 664 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: things that has been raised in this new study, and 665 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: I recognize I recommend anybody that wants to read this 666 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,760 Speaker 1: please do yourself a favor. It was actually the authors 667 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: are actually a gentleman named Brian Burnett and Michelle Wilkins, 668 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: and a tip of the cap for them to do 669 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: in this, you know, because when I first when I 670 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,880 Speaker 1: first heard about this, I'm thinking, what's their angle? What 671 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 1: are they going for here? Certainly they've got a movie 672 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: in the works, or you know, I hadn't just fallen 673 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: off the tournaip truck. But one of the reasons that 674 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: I'm very compelled by this and the fact that they 675 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: did the study is it's actually in a recognized peer 676 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: review forensic science journal, and the journal is actually called 677 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 1: the International Journal of Forensic Science. Friends, we'll make sure 678 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 1: that that's in the in the note relative to this 679 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: so that you can go check it out. But you know, 680 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 1: one of the things that they talk about is that 681 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: there was an absence of blood deposition on his hands. Okay, 682 00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 1: So when Cobain is found on the floor, between his 683 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: index finger and his thumb, he's that's how he's gripping 684 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: the muzzle of this weapon, Okay. And it's not near 685 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: his mouth. It's down it's like resting on his chest, 686 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: kind of in a slightly diagonal presentation. But one of 687 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: the things they say that you know, that they talk 688 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:29,320 Speaker 1: about is that it was it was that that's inconsistent 689 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 1: with self inflicted gunshot wounds, and I would imagine to 690 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: a certain degree shotgun woes, because shot wounds tend to 691 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 1: be very, very messy. But it's not It is not 692 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,239 Speaker 1: out of the ordinary to have this occur. I have 693 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 1: had a lot of cases over the course of my 694 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,800 Speaker 1: career where I've had people that have self inflicted and 695 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: with a firearm, and they didn't have any blood deposition 696 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:02,240 Speaker 1: on their hands. So it depends on the angle of fire, 697 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,440 Speaker 1: the positionality of the body, the target surface. You know, 698 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: we're talking about also containment within the head. It's not 699 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: like you know, if you say, for instance, and this 700 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 1: is kind of a I don't know if it's a 701 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,959 Speaker 1: good choice, but say, for instance, if somebody had shot 702 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: themselves in the chest, that would be different. But you 703 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: have the example of safer instance. This is famous. It's 704 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,239 Speaker 1: been all over the web for years and years, the 705 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: self inflicted death of Bud Dwire, the guy that was 706 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,239 Speaker 1: the Secretary of Treasury up up in Pennsylvania. Because the 707 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:44,399 Speaker 1: podium takes out a it looks like I think it's 708 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: like a Colt three fifty seven, and stuck it in 709 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,040 Speaker 1: his mouth. Yeah, he pulled it out of the paper 710 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,759 Speaker 1: bag and he's passing out notes to all members of 711 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,880 Speaker 1: the press there. And you know that that addage how 712 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: the camera never blinks. Uh, the cameraman on the thing 713 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: never flinched, and he tracked him all the way to 714 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 1: the ground. And you can see because the nasal farynix 715 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 1: area the trauma that was induced there, blood is just 716 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,319 Speaker 1: literally pouring out of his nose and his mouth live 717 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: on camera. So you look at something like that and 718 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,279 Speaker 1: you say, and there was blood everywhere, you know, and 719 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,880 Speaker 1: he would have had it deposited on his hands. But 720 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,280 Speaker 1: I don't think that it's necessarily accurate to say that 721 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 1: all all deaths involving self inflicted wounds, you're going to 722 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:41,200 Speaker 1: have blood deposition. I just I don't necessarily see that happening. 723 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: They also talk about in their paper, they talk about 724 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: organ damage and necrosis. Necrosis is kind of the death 725 00:48:52,880 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: of tissue and the This is not something like when 726 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:06,440 Speaker 1: you go to do the autopsy, you're going to see 727 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: grossly without the microscope, you're going to see necrotic changes. 728 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 1: They're saying that that and this has to be microscopically, 729 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:23,280 Speaker 1: that the that the brain there was brain and liver 730 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:30,920 Speaker 1: necrosis consistent with oxygen deprivation from heroin overdose, not rapid 731 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 1: shotgun death. And you know which is kind of you know, 732 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: how did he die? You know, is it heroin overdose 733 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 1: or is it? Is it a shotgun blast. I can 734 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,759 Speaker 1: tell you this. I've got literally I have. I have 735 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: Cobaine's autopsy report here in front of me right now, 736 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,279 Speaker 1: and his his lung weights, which is something you look 737 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,839 Speaker 1: for in heroin ods. The lungs will become kind of 738 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: they become very heavy because you know, you remember I 739 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: mentioned those two guys earlier that I'd worked at case on, 740 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: and they were cyanotic. You go into a form of 741 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,960 Speaker 1: congested failure most of the time. The lungs are very 742 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,120 Speaker 1: very heavy. And I will read you the weight right 743 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:20,760 Speaker 1: now is just looking at it. They are let's see 744 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 1: the Okay, the right lung, Kirk Combaine's right lung weighed 745 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:33,560 Speaker 1: three hundred and ninety five grams, which is odd because 746 00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: the right lung is generally heavier than the left lung. 747 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,799 Speaker 1: Left lung has fewer loads because the heart is there. 748 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 1: The leftlong weigh four hundred and thirty five grams and 749 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,120 Speaker 1: he's not a big big guy, okay, but those rate 750 00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: I think those weights would probably fall into fall into 751 00:50:54,600 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 1: the normal normal parameters for uh for uh for for 752 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 1: uh for organ waits. He does have. It's it's noted 753 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:15,160 Speaker 1: that he did have a small amount of a frothy, 754 00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,239 Speaker 1: sanguineous liquid present in the in the trachea, which is 755 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,839 Speaker 1: consistent with if he had laid there, well it may 756 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,000 Speaker 1: have receded. But with heroin you will also see just 757 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: like with drownings, you'll see that frothy, ademitous cone like 758 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,560 Speaker 1: it looks like the head of a beer, you know 759 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,120 Speaker 1: that kind of comes out. Listen. I I got to 760 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:41,280 Speaker 1: tell you I I do not in any way think 761 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:48,919 Speaker 1: that this is there, uh you know, chasing their tail here. 762 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,799 Speaker 1: I think that there is From a scientific standpoint, I 763 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:58,880 Speaker 1: think that there's certainly enough here that a re examination 764 00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: may be warranted. But here's the problem. There is no 765 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,120 Speaker 1: court you can go to about this. This is a 766 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 1: medical legal decision, just like Ellen Greenberg's case. Once the 767 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,279 Speaker 1: medical examiner has ruled it a suicide, which they have 768 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:25,040 Speaker 1: in this case, that's what they're sticking with. They and 769 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 1: I'll go and tell you right now, they have just 770 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,280 Speaker 1: issued a statement where they said we're not reopening the case. 771 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,680 Speaker 1: So what's going to help this case though, is that 772 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,480 Speaker 1: these people were brave enough to go out and do 773 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 1: an analytical study. It has been peer reviewed, which means 774 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:48,600 Speaker 1: people in forensics have also reviewed this data. This paper 775 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 1: will probably be presented at various meetings. I'm sure it 776 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:58,920 Speaker 1: may already have been, and maybe, just maybe there'll be 777 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,759 Speaker 1: more answers in the future. But I've I've got to 778 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:08,760 Speaker 1: tell you for those out there that are that are 779 00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:14,720 Speaker 1: you know, in crisis right now in their life, taking 780 00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:19,680 Speaker 1: your own life is not the answer. It doesn't solve 781 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: the problem. Certainly doesn't solve the problem for those that 782 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:28,279 Speaker 1: are left behind. So I would offer up this to you. 783 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 1: If you're struggling right now, doll nine eight eight suicide. 784 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:39,879 Speaker 1: That's nine eight eight s U I C I D E. 785 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:45,640 Speaker 1: And that'll plug into the crisis lifeline. If you're struggling 786 00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,080 Speaker 1: right now, you know somebody that's struggling, reach out. There's 787 00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:53,879 Speaker 1: helpful you out there. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 788 00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:56,160 Speaker 1: is Bodybodies