WEBVTT - The Democratic Disconnect with Astead Herndon and Charlamagne tha God 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.120 Cancer Straight Talk is a podcast for Memorial Sloan Kettering 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:08.600 Cancer Center where hosts doctor Diane Reedy Lagunas has intimate 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.640 conversations with patients and experts about topics like dating and sex, 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:17.800 exercise and diet, the power of gratitude, and more. I 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.279 love being her guest. Listen to Cancer straight Talk, You'll 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:28.560 learn so much. Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:36.800 is next question. The election is so close, nail biding, 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:41.239 toss and turning, stomach churning close. So here to discuss 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.760 the state of the race and the final leg is 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.280 Charlemagne the God, host of the popular radio show The 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.839 Breakfast Club, someone who's interviewed kamalast several times over the years. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.720 We're doing an audio threesome, if you will, with a 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:59.560 Steed Herndon, national politics reporter from The New York Times 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:03.160 and host of the podcast The Run Up. Together, We're 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.959 unpacking everything from Vice President Kamala Harris's strategy to the 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:12.320 dynamics influencing black voters in this critical election. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:13.919 Plus we'll talk. 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:17.920 About why Donald Trump seems like the teflon candidate and 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.920 whether Democrats have what it takes to rally voters feeling 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:27.120 left behind. It's candid, insightful, and just a little spicy. 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:37.240 So buckle up and take a listen before we start. 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.400 What do your friends call you? Do they call you Charlemagne? 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:42.440 Do they call you c the g? 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:43.600 What do they call it? 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:44.000 Yeah? 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:45.040 Leonard? 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:49.160 I mean it's a combination, you know, like, yeah, Leonard Charlot. 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:51.880 It was between Leonard and Scharla Charlat. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:53.880 I like that. And how did you get the name 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:54.920 Charlomage the god? 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.680 Well, you know, when I was younger and I was 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:00.800 doing things I had no business doing in Mon's Corner, 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.600 South Carolina, like selling crack, I used to have an alias, 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:05.880 and my alias was Charles because like, I come from 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.640 a really small town and so like, you know, the 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:11.239 people that would pull up to buy drugs for me, 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:13.440 even though they were buying the drugs, they were still 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:15.880 going tell my parents, right, So I would always have 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:17.440 like a hoodie on and I would say my name 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.120 is Charles or Charlie. And then I was in night 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.120 school one day and I was reading in a history 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.280 book and I saw the name Charlemagne and it was 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.640 French for Charles the Great. And then you know, I 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:31.760 also read about this Haitian Haitian general whose name was Charlomagne, 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:33.320 and I just thought it was a cool name. I 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.160 was like, you know what, that's the cool name that's 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:37.800 going to look good on the front cover of a 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.240 book one day. And you know, I've had you know, 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.320 three New York Times bestsellers, national bestsellers, so. 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.160 Well, I was going to say, you have come a 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.160 long way from selling crack on the corner in South 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:52.959 Carolina and now you know, you're interviewing a presidential candidate. 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.400 They say this is the first podcast election, and that 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.960 seems to be true. And obviously Vice President Harris wanted 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.360 to talk to you and to be on the Breakfast Club. 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:06.880 How did the interview come about? Did she reach out 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:08.600 to you or did you reach out to her? 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:09.240 Yeah. 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.360 You know what's interesting, I've been interviewing the Vice President 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.800 on Breakfast Club since twenty and eighteen. I had her 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:15.960 when she was a senator. You know, she came on 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:17.920 the Breakfast Club back in twenty eighteen. It was got 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.359 a great hour long conversation that you can go watch 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:22.720 on YouTube. When she ran for president in twenty twenty, 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:25.920 she came back to the Breakfast Club. I had a 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:28.040 late night talked show on Comedy Central a couple of 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.480 years ago. She was a guest on that when she 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.520 was a vice president. So it's almost like at every 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.440 iteration of her you know, career since about twenty eighteen, 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:38.960 I've been there. Like I said, I interviewed her when 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:41.040 she was a senator, interviewed her when she was running 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.960 for president, interviewed her when she was vice president, and 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.840 now I'm interviewing her again while she runs for president. 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:48.160 And you know, even in twenty twenty I was. 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:49.880 I was out there on the campaign trail with her too, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.320 Like you know, we was in South Carolina together. She 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.240 unveiled her mental health initiative in some of Miville, South Carolina. 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:56.200 I was with her there. 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:58.760 I was with her at South Carolina State University. I 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:00.720 was with her at Charlotte North Caroline, out with her 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:04.120 in Brooklyn. So yeah, we've developed a pretty good rapport. 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.520 So you really know her quite well. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.640 So much focus, as you know, has been on her 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:15.760 declining support among black men, particularly black men under the 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.560 age of fifty. So if you had to tell people 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.440 listening in a nutshell, what would you say to this question, 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.480 what is going on with Kamala Harris and young black dudes. 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.000 I think, well, two things. 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.560 I think number one is unfair to say it's black 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.240 men in Kamala Harris. I think that it's black people 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:41.280 in the Democratic Party period. This is something that's been 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.000 you know, it's been a conversation since twenty sixteen. A 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.640 lot of Black people feel like the Democratic Party haven't 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.920 delivered for them. And I think it's you know, I 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.120 think it's just a matter of not the fact that 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.080 people have something against Kamala Harris, it's just how people 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.320 feel about the Democratic Party as a whole. But even 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.760 with that said, I think everybody he's freaking out for 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.240 no reason. I think it's all overstated when they say 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:07.599 they're losing support, because I have nothing to show me 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.039 that yet. These are just all polls and speculation. In 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.440 two thousand and sixteen, eighty five percent of black men 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.599 voted for Hillary Clinton. In twenty twenty, I think like 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.479 ninety percent of black men, I know it was definitely 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.520 over eighty percent voted for President Biden and Vice President 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.280 Harris was on the ticket. I'm a person that only 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.719 voted for that ticket because of Vice President Harris. So 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:30.479 I just think that when people say things like, oh, 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.240 you know, black men, you know, they don't want to 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.520 support the vice president. I just think that's overstated. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:36.120 I don't believe that. 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.200 After come November, I could be proven wrong, but I 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.800 just don't believe it because I mean, since Reagan, if 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:46.600 I'm not mistaken, you know, black people have voted conservative 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.200 between eight percent and fifteen percent. Like, you know, Trump 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.760 got twelve percent of the black male either the black 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.720 vote or the black mail vote in twenty twenty. I 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.040 think it was the black vote as a whole. Maybe, 0:05:58.040 --> 0:05:59.840 so it might have been like I don't remember what, 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:01.680 I think it was twelve percent. But so it's like 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.919 those those numbers aren't far off from the average, Like 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.000 there are black conservatives out here, you know, Like it 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:10.720 just is so it's like that that number isn't far 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:11.560 off from the average. 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:12.720 I think you said something. 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.880 Else earlier that made me remember one of my points 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:17.040 that I kind of forgot a little bit. 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:18.760 But it's like, it's not that people. 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:23.840 Are necessarily wanting to go be conservative. They're just off everything. 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:28.440 They're not feeling the political process period. They're not feeling Democrats, 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.600 they're not feeling Republicans. There's a lot of black people 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.080 who feel like, regardless of who's in office, you know, 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.760 our communities don't change. You know, things are still the same. 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.720 You know, you got somebody like President Obama who promised 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:41.560 a lot of hope and a lot of change, but 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:43.880 that didn't change anything. 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:44.360 Right. 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.640 So I think she's the vice president is fighting against 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:48.640 a lot of that. 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:49.320 Right. 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.400 A lot of people see it feeling like, oh, we've 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.360 had that before. We had a black face in a 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:56.919 high place before. And I feel like she's fighting against 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.039 you know how people feel about feel against it about 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:00.000 the Democratic Party. 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.560 How did you find her in your interview? Did you 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.599 think that she answered the questions? Did you feel that 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:12.440 she was direct, authentic and you know her? So, how 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:14.760 did you feel about this last go round when you 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:16.600 guys talked well, you know. 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:19.600 In my new book Get Out Us a Dieline Why 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:21.960 Small Talk Sucks, I have a chapter called the Language 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.920 of Politics is Dead, and so I credit Donald Trump 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:27.960 with killing the language of politics. So I feel like 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.320 politicians can speak very freely if they choose to. 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.400 Plus, I'm a big fan of the movie Bullwharf No. 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.320 I love that, you know, So I've been waiting for 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.880 a politician to sound like, you know, a send of 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:44.360 the bullwharf. But I think she said something to be 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.520 in the beginning of our conversation when I brought up 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.480 the fact that people say she's very scripted, you know, 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.520 people say she sticks to her talking points, she said, 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:53.120 you're welcome. 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:53.560 You know. 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.200 I call that discipline, And it made me think about something. 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.120 I think that we've seen such a lack of discipline 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.720 since Donald Trump came on the scene that we forgot 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.800 what that looks like. So when you have a politician 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.400 who was in an interview or in a conversation and 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.800 they're being disciplined, as she says, and getting their message 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.640 across and telling us what their policies are, and you know, 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.400 detailing their policies, it's kind of. 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:25.840 Like we want, we want to be entertained, right. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.600 And that's not what That's not what I think we 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.480 need from our politicians. So to say that, do I 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.880 think she was being authentic? Yeah, I think she was 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:39.479 being authentically authentically who she is, which is a very disciplined, seasoned, 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:41.319 veteran politician. 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.839 I have to beg to differ with you on that point. 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:50.280 I think that she takes a really long time to 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.160 get to her point and that she does rely on 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.320 talking points too often. I think she's gotten much better 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.360 than she used to, but it's almost as if she's 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:04.760 afraid to say something that will later come back to 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:09.800 haunt her. And I find the fact that she just 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:15.760 doesn't really articulate to me her true policy position and 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:20.160 that she isn't really directly answering the questions a lot 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:24.560 of times. That's been my experience and my experience watching her. 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:28.080 I just wish she would say, this is our plan, 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.679 or you're right, a lot of illegal immigrants have come 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.240 into this country during the Biden administration, but this is why, 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:37.800 and this is what I want to do about it 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.520 moving forward. You know, I just I don't find her 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:46.080 explanation of policy that compelling compared to say, someone like 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.080 Bill Clinton or Barack Obama. 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:49.880 Have you ever interviewed them? 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.000 Yeah, I interviewed the President Obama before. I interview President 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:55.319 Obama when his book came out. I'm never interview President 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.599 Obama when he was running for office. I've interviewed you know, 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.280 Hillary Clinton a couple of times as well when she 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:02.920 was running. 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:06.640 I can understand what you're saying. 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.560 I think that you know a lot of politicians, or 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.240 at least disciplined ones, are scared of saying things that 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:14.720 you know, may come back to haunt them. But my 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.920 thing is, in twenty twenty four, what can truly come 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.040 back to haunt you? But then again, there's only one 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.720 Donald Trump. Nothing seems to haunt Donald Trump. Nothing seems 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.480 to stick to Donald Trump, but everything seems to stick, 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.040 you know, to everybody else. 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:32.400 But how do you explain that? How do you explain that? 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.360 I think a lot of people are media. 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.000 I really truly believe it's the media's fault because we 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.400 created this double standard, like not just the media, government, 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.199 because you know, people will say things like Donald Trump 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.400 is a threat to democracy. But as I told the 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.920 Vice President, I don't feel like the administration acted like it. 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.439 Like Merrick Garland could have, you know, arrested Donald Trump 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.720 a long time ago for leading an attempted to cool 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:58.160 with his country, but he chose not to. So now 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.800 when you choose not to, you get Donald Trump at 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.679 you know, dinners, telling jokes. So it doesn't even look 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.199 like he's a guy that has ninety plus criminal charges 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.720 who've been convicted of thirty thirty. 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:10.640 Four of them already or whatever. 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:12.880 The number was, you don't even look at him as 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.679 you know what he actually is, which is a true 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.880 threat to our democracy. Like I was reading something in 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:21.400 The New York Times the other day and it said 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.880 how this election is a moment of truth to Donald Trump, 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:30.040 and they just laid out every single thing he's ever 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:34.200 been accused of in life. This guy should have been 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:38.040 disqualified from running for president a long, long, long, long 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:42.760 time ago. And if Kamala Harris or President Obama or 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:45.360 a Bill Clinton back in the day, any of those 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.360 people had said one of the things that Donald Trump 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:51.400 has said are done one of the things Donald Trump's done, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:52.840 they'd be disqualified already. 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.360 Well, let's bring in our guest, Astad Herndon. He's a 0:11:56.440 --> 0:12:00.160 national politics reporter for the New York Times. He's so 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:04.240 the politics podcast The Run Up. In twenty nineteen, he 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:08.520 was the Times campaign reporter for Kamala Harris's presidential campaign. 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.000 And the three of us have something in common. We 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.720 have all interviewed Kamala Harris. So I thought it would 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.240 be interesting for us to compare notes and talk about 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.040 her interview style and then talk about the state of 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:21.480 the race. 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:23.600 Highest ed, thank you for doing this. 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.280 Yeah, thank y'all for having me. I really appreciate being 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:27.679 here and y'all hearing us out. 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.960 Well, you know, we were just talking and we were 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.120 saying that nothing, as you overheard, seems to affect Donald Trump. 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.880 I think the word teflon presidency was first came to 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.960 be talking about Ronald Reagan, I believe. And now I'm 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.760 not sure what's stronger than teflon. And I guess teflon 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.280 is now considered a dangerous substance. But I don't know 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.920 what it is about Donald Trump that nothing sticks no 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.000 matter what he does. Ostead, what do you think is 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.000 the reason for that that people are willing to forgive 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.679 so many host things? 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.119 Yeah, I mean I think to what you know, Charlemagne 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.120 just said, I agree that if half the things that 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:10.959 Donald Trump is said are done, one percent of the 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.640 things Donald Trump is said have done had been you know, 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.920 has was true about the Democratic candidate or even most 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.480 other Republicans, you would see them pretty clearly disqualify from 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.680 the jump. I mean, I think we know some of 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.760 the answers to this, like there is a different type 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.959 of relationship with supporter that he fosters. I think it's 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.280 important to see Trump as a more movement candidate than 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.920 that's particularly party figure, because his voters feel as if 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.360 they know and can interpret what he believes more so 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.520 than mainstream media, more so to the things that they 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.480 hear and read. They're willing even to dismiss stuff that 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.600 doesn't fit within that overall picture. But I guess I'm 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.360 not someone who thinks that this stuff hasn't affected Donald Trump. 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.200 Donald Trump is the second most unpopular presidential candidate who's 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.880 ever run. He just happens to be running against people 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.720 who were just as impopular as him, particularly in twenty sixteen, 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.240 I think, and much of this race against Joe Biden. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.280 In fact, I frankly would go even further and say, 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.800 if the Democratic Party had kind of followed through on 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.600 the plan they implied in twenty twenty, where Biden didn't run, 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.839 they held a primary, worked out some of their kind 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.439 of internal ideological shifts, and then produced a nominee, even 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.000 if that nominee was still Kamala Harris, I think that 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.920 person would have been in a much stronger position than 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:26.680 they currently find themselves, because I don't think Donald Trump 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:31.080 actually is all that massively popular. I think Donald Trump 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.760 has a hard ceiling of popularity that is greater than 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.520 most other politicians. But what we know is that the 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.720 anti Trump coalition is one that is just as strong, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:42.840 if not stronger. We saw that in the midterms, We've 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.440 seen that in special elections. We see that kind of 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.400 over and over, and frankly, it's what gives democratics some 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.440 confidence even as this looks really fifty to fifty. So 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.160 I guess I would take the other side and say 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.440 I don't think that Donald Trump is fully teflon. I 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.240 think that a lot of the things are just priced 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.840 in for most people, so they see him as untrustworthy. 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.840 They see him as someone who will fly out rules 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.080 and norms. But I think for a lot of people 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.040 that's being held up against a desire for change that 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.240 he can also represent when Democrats that feel a little 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.040 more status quo, which I do think they do feel now, 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.360 and part of that is part of the process question. Like, 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:20.960 I don't think it was inherent that Kamala Harris felt 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:22.920 like that. I think there was a version of that 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.640 that did feel like a big new way forward some ways. 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:27.880 I think that this process has played out has hurt 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.520 their ability to cast themselves as that well let's. 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.280 Talk about this whole idea of having a more open primary, 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.760 given that there were only a few months between the 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.480 time Joe Biden stepped down or decided not to run 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.720 and the election itself. I mean, it's great to say 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.320 that in hindsight, right Astead, And I'd love to hear 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.040 what Charlemagne says about this as well. But do you 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.280 really think it would have put the Democrats in a 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.800 stronger position. I mean, that's sort of a fantasy, isn't it. 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.280 I hear why you're saying that, But I was there 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.000 in early twenty twenty three asking them the same questions 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.080 about Biden's age. It was only the evidence was there 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:05.800 that the public thought he was too old for a 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.960 second term. The donor money was there for interest in 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.880 the open and other candidates. It was their own deference 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.160 to Joe Biden that put them in this position. It's 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.640 the only thing that put them in this position is 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.720 their traditional deference to his reelections. I'm really talking about 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:20.640 early twenty twenty three. 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.040 Oh, you're saying if he had dropped out a year early. 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:24.600 I'm saying, if he would have followed through and what 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:26.560 he implied to the public in twenty twenty, which is 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:28.680 that he would be a transitional president lead to another 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:29.760 generation of Democrats. 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:30.880 They wouldn't be in this position. 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:33.520 I think a lot of their voters assumed that they 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.520 wouldn't be in this position, and that the party would 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.480 have a new conversation with itself in an open primary way. 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.200 But that's obviously not how it developed. He ran and 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.080 folks stuck by him for a year and a half, 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.280 two years, and then by the time I think it 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.760 became really clear that something different needed to happen after 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.360 the debate, there was no real's plan B. 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:53.360 There was no other option, I think. 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.120 So I guess I say that to say, I don't 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.720 think there's a different way this could have developed after 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.000 they put themselves in the position they put themselves in, 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.880 got it, But I do think there were different options, 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.240 and so somehow I think the conversation has to start 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:08.240 not just in what they could have done with Kamala 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.240 Harris's message or what she can do individually to win 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.040 these people back in the short term. I think the 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.800 biggest thing they could have done is recognized that a 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.240 lot of the country wanted a different direction or thought 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.200 of the Democratic Party in a transitory period, and they 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.240 ignored that evidence for way too long. 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.000 That's all I'm saying. Yeah, I I agree with a 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:29.000 set one hundred percent. 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.320 I was a person that was calling for Joe Biden 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.800 to step down, you know, a year ago, two years ago, 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:39.120 you know, just because I knew that if we kept 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:40.480 going the way that we was going, there was no 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.719 possible way that you know, Joe Biden could win in November. 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:45.760 And yeah, I think that he should have been a 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.320 transitional president, like that should have been the plan. But 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:50.720 it shouldn't have been just up to him. It should 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.240 have been everybody around him should have known, like, hey, 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.920 twenty twenty, you're gonna run, You're gonna win, but you 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.840 got to set up the next generation of Democrats. The 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.760 only thing I would say is maybe three four years ago, 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.280 it didn't feel like Democrats had. 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:06.160 That strong of a bench. 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.680 But you know now, I remember Joe Biden said toward 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.600 the end of last year, he was leaving one of 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:14.800 the press conferences and they asked him, they said, you 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.040 know who else can beat Trump except for you? When 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:18.679 he turned around and he was like, there's about fifty 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.440 of us that could beat Trump. And I was like, well, 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.760 line him up, because I felt like when he said 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.359 that it was true, right. I felt like Dumingapiro, I 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.440 felt like Gretchen Whitmer, I felt like, you know, Wes Moore, 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.720 I felt like the Vice president, Kamala Harris like I 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:34.840 felt like there was people, you know, who would have 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:36.320 been more formidable opponents. 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.919 So I think that the Democrats, you know, they they 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:39.800 just didn't have a plan. 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.040 To me, I think they had a bench, but the 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.920 bench needed a lot of I don't know, to use 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.520 a sports metaphor, they needed a lot of practice, and 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.440 they needed to be in front of a national audience. 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.400 And some of those people you just mentioned, Josh Shapiro, 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.840 Gretchen Whitmer, definitely Wes Moore, who I like and I 0:18:57.920 --> 0:18:59.959 think he has a great political future. But they are 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.960 very unproven on a national stage. So I'm not sure 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.600 how strong the bench actually was. And I think part 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.600 of the problem is what Astead was saying. They didn't 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.400 have an opportunity to develop the bench because Joe Biden 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:24.640 was so entrenched in the presidency. I want to tell 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.840 you all about the Cancer Straight Talk podcast from Memorial 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:33.159 Sloan Kettering Cancer Center with MSK oncologist doctor Diane Reedy Lagunis. 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.720