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Speaker 1: Cancer Straight Talk is a podcast for Memorial Sloan Kettering

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Speaker 1: Cancer Center where hosts doctor Diane Reedy Lagunas has intimate

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Speaker 1: conversations with patients and experts about topics like dating and sex,

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Speaker 1: exercise and diet, the power of gratitude, and more. I

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Speaker 1: love being her guest. Listen to Cancer straight Talk, You'll

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Speaker 1: learn so much. Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this

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Speaker 1: is next question. The election is so close, nail biding,

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Speaker 1: toss and turning, stomach churning close. So here to discuss

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Speaker 1: the state of the race and the final leg is

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Speaker 1: Charlemagne the God, host of the popular radio show The

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Speaker 1: Breakfast Club, someone who's interviewed kamalast several times over the years.

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Speaker 1: We're doing an audio threesome, if you will, with a

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Speaker 1: Steed Herndon, national politics reporter from The New York Times

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Speaker 1: and host of the podcast The Run Up. Together, We're

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Speaker 1: unpacking everything from Vice President Kamala Harris's strategy to the

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Speaker 1: dynamics influencing black voters in this critical election.

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Speaker 2: Plus we'll talk.

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Speaker 1: About why Donald Trump seems like the teflon candidate and

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Speaker 1: whether Democrats have what it takes to rally voters feeling

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Speaker 1: left behind. It's candid, insightful, and just a little spicy.

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Speaker 1: So buckle up and take a listen before we start.

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Speaker 1: What do your friends call you? Do they call you Charlemagne?

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Speaker 1: Do they call you c the g?

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Speaker 2: What do they call it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Leonard?

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Speaker 5: I mean it's a combination, you know, like, yeah, Leonard Charlot.

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Speaker 5: It was between Leonard and Scharla Charlat.

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Speaker 2: I like that. And how did you get the name

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Speaker 2: Charlomage the god?

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, when I was younger and I was

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Speaker 5: doing things I had no business doing in Mon's Corner,

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Speaker 5: South Carolina, like selling crack, I used to have an alias,

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Speaker 5: and my alias was Charles because like, I come from

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Speaker 5: a really small town and so like, you know, the

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Speaker 5: people that would pull up to buy drugs for me,

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Speaker 5: even though they were buying the drugs, they were still

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Speaker 5: going tell my parents, right, So I would always have

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Speaker 5: like a hoodie on and I would say my name

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Speaker 5: is Charles or Charlie. And then I was in night

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Speaker 5: school one day and I was reading in a history

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Speaker 5: book and I saw the name Charlemagne and it was

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Speaker 5: French for Charles the Great. And then you know, I

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Speaker 5: also read about this Haitian Haitian general whose name was Charlomagne,

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Speaker 5: and I just thought it was a cool name. I

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Speaker 5: was like, you know what, that's the cool name that's

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Speaker 5: going to look good on the front cover of a

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Speaker 5: book one day. And you know, I've had you know,

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Speaker 5: three New York Times bestsellers, national bestsellers, so.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was going to say, you have come a

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Speaker 1: long way from selling crack on the corner in South

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Speaker 1: Carolina and now you know, you're interviewing a presidential candidate.

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Speaker 1: They say this is the first podcast election, and that

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Speaker 1: seems to be true. And obviously Vice President Harris wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk to you and to be on the Breakfast Club.

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Speaker 1: How did the interview come about? Did she reach out

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Speaker 1: to you or did you reach out to her?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: You know what's interesting, I've been interviewing the Vice President

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Speaker 5: on Breakfast Club since twenty and eighteen. I had her

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Speaker 5: when she was a senator. You know, she came on

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Speaker 5: the Breakfast Club back in twenty eighteen. It was got

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Speaker 5: a great hour long conversation that you can go watch

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Speaker 5: on YouTube. When she ran for president in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 5: she came back to the Breakfast Club. I had a

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Speaker 5: late night talked show on Comedy Central a couple of

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Speaker 5: years ago. She was a guest on that when she

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Speaker 5: was a vice president. So it's almost like at every

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Speaker 5: iteration of her you know, career since about twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 5: I've been there. Like I said, I interviewed her when

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Speaker 5: she was a senator, interviewed her when she was running

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Speaker 5: for president, interviewed her when she was vice president, and

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Speaker 5: now I'm interviewing her again while she runs for president.

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Speaker 4: And you know, even in twenty twenty I was.

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Speaker 5: I was out there on the campaign trail with her too,

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Speaker 5: Like you know, we was in South Carolina together. She

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Speaker 5: unveiled her mental health initiative in some of Miville, South Carolina.

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Speaker 4: I was with her there.

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Speaker 5: I was with her at South Carolina State University. I

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Speaker 5: was with her at Charlotte North Caroline, out with her

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Speaker 5: in Brooklyn. So yeah, we've developed a pretty good rapport.

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Speaker 2: So you really know her quite well.

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Speaker 1: So much focus, as you know, has been on her

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Speaker 1: declining support among black men, particularly black men under the

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Speaker 1: age of fifty. So if you had to tell people

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Speaker 1: listening in a nutshell, what would you say to this question,

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Speaker 1: what is going on with Kamala Harris and young black dudes.

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Speaker 4: I think, well, two things.

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Speaker 5: I think number one is unfair to say it's black

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Speaker 5: men in Kamala Harris. I think that it's black people

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Speaker 5: in the Democratic Party period. This is something that's been

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Speaker 5: you know, it's been a conversation since twenty sixteen. A

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Speaker 5: lot of Black people feel like the Democratic Party haven't

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Speaker 5: delivered for them. And I think it's you know, I

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Speaker 5: think it's just a matter of not the fact that

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Speaker 5: people have something against Kamala Harris, it's just how people

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Speaker 5: feel about the Democratic Party as a whole. But even

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Speaker 5: with that said, I think everybody he's freaking out for

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Speaker 5: no reason. I think it's all overstated when they say

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Speaker 5: they're losing support, because I have nothing to show me

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Speaker 5: that yet. These are just all polls and speculation. In

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Speaker 5: two thousand and sixteen, eighty five percent of black men

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Speaker 5: voted for Hillary Clinton. In twenty twenty, I think like

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Speaker 5: ninety percent of black men, I know it was definitely

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Speaker 5: over eighty percent voted for President Biden and Vice President

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Speaker 5: Harris was on the ticket. I'm a person that only

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Speaker 5: voted for that ticket because of Vice President Harris. So

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Speaker 5: I just think that when people say things like, oh,

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Speaker 5: you know, black men, you know, they don't want to

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Speaker 5: support the vice president. I just think that's overstated.

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Speaker 4: I don't believe that.

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Speaker 5: After come November, I could be proven wrong, but I

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Speaker 5: just don't believe it because I mean, since Reagan, if

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Speaker 5: I'm not mistaken, you know, black people have voted conservative

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Speaker 5: between eight percent and fifteen percent. Like, you know, Trump

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Speaker 5: got twelve percent of the black male either the black

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Speaker 5: vote or the black mail vote in twenty twenty. I

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Speaker 5: think it was the black vote as a whole. Maybe,

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Speaker 5: so it might have been like I don't remember what,

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Speaker 5: I think it was twelve percent. But so it's like

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Speaker 5: those those numbers aren't far off from the average, Like

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Speaker 5: there are black conservatives out here, you know, Like it

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Speaker 5: just is so it's like that that number isn't far

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Speaker 5: off from the average.

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Speaker 4: I think you said something.

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Speaker 5: Else earlier that made me remember one of my points

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Speaker 5: that I kind of forgot a little bit.

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Speaker 4: But it's like, it's not that people.

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Speaker 5: Are necessarily wanting to go be conservative. They're just off everything.

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Speaker 5: They're not feeling the political process period. They're not feeling Democrats,

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Speaker 5: they're not feeling Republicans. There's a lot of black people

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Speaker 5: who feel like, regardless of who's in office, you know,

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Speaker 5: our communities don't change. You know, things are still the same.

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Speaker 5: You know, you got somebody like President Obama who promised

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Speaker 5: a lot of hope and a lot of change, but

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Speaker 5: that didn't change anything.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 5: So I think she's the vice president is fighting against

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Speaker 5: a lot of that.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 5: A lot of people see it feeling like, oh, we've

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Speaker 5: had that before. We had a black face in a

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Speaker 5: high place before. And I feel like she's fighting against

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Speaker 5: you know how people feel about feel against it about

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Speaker 5: the Democratic Party.

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Speaker 1: How did you find her in your interview? Did you

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Speaker 1: think that she answered the questions? Did you feel that

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Speaker 1: she was direct, authentic and you know her? So, how

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Speaker 1: did you feel about this last go round when you

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Speaker 1: guys talked well, you know.

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Speaker 5: In my new book Get Out Us a Dieline Why

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Speaker 5: Small Talk Sucks, I have a chapter called the Language

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Speaker 5: of Politics is Dead, and so I credit Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: with killing the language of politics. So I feel like

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Speaker 5: politicians can speak very freely if they choose to.

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Speaker 4: Plus, I'm a big fan of the movie Bullwharf No.

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Speaker 5: I love that, you know, So I've been waiting for

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Speaker 5: a politician to sound like, you know, a send of

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Speaker 5: the bullwharf. But I think she said something to be

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Speaker 5: in the beginning of our conversation when I brought up

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Speaker 5: the fact that people say she's very scripted, you know,

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Speaker 5: people say she sticks to her talking points, she said,

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Speaker 5: you're welcome.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 5: I call that discipline, And it made me think about something.

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Speaker 5: I think that we've seen such a lack of discipline

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Speaker 5: since Donald Trump came on the scene that we forgot

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Speaker 5: what that looks like. So when you have a politician

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Speaker 5: who was in an interview or in a conversation and

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Speaker 5: they're being disciplined, as she says, and getting their message

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Speaker 5: across and telling us what their policies are, and you know,

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Speaker 5: detailing their policies, it's kind of.

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Speaker 4: Like we want, we want to be entertained, right.

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Speaker 5: And that's not what That's not what I think we

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Speaker 5: need from our politicians. So to say that, do I

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Speaker 5: think she was being authentic? Yeah, I think she was

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Speaker 5: being authentically authentically who she is, which is a very disciplined, seasoned,

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Speaker 5: veteran politician.

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Speaker 1: I have to beg to differ with you on that point.

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Speaker 1: I think that she takes a really long time to

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Speaker 1: get to her point and that she does rely on

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Speaker 1: talking points too often. I think she's gotten much better

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Speaker 1: than she used to, but it's almost as if she's

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Speaker 1: afraid to say something that will later come back to

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Speaker 1: haunt her. And I find the fact that she just

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Speaker 1: doesn't really articulate to me her true policy position and

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Speaker 1: that she isn't really directly answering the questions a lot

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Speaker 1: of times. That's been my experience and my experience watching her.

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Speaker 1: I just wish she would say, this is our plan,

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Speaker 1: or you're right, a lot of illegal immigrants have come

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Speaker 1: into this country during the Biden administration, but this is why,

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Speaker 1: and this is what I want to do about it

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Speaker 1: moving forward. You know, I just I don't find her

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Speaker 1: explanation of policy that compelling compared to say, someone like

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Speaker 1: Bill Clinton or Barack Obama.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever interviewed them?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I interviewed the President Obama before. I interview President

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Speaker 5: Obama when his book came out. I'm never interview President

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Speaker 5: Obama when he was running for office. I've interviewed you know,

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Speaker 5: Hillary Clinton a couple of times as well when she

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Speaker 5: was running.

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Speaker 4: I can understand what you're saying.

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Speaker 5: I think that you know a lot of politicians, or

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Speaker 5: at least disciplined ones, are scared of saying things that

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Speaker 5: you know, may come back to haunt them. But my

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Speaker 5: thing is, in twenty twenty four, what can truly come

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Speaker 5: back to haunt you? But then again, there's only one

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump. Nothing seems to haunt Donald Trump. Nothing seems

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Speaker 5: to stick to Donald Trump, but everything seems to stick,

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Speaker 5: you know, to everybody else.

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Speaker 1: But how do you explain that? How do you explain that?

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are media.

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Speaker 5: I really truly believe it's the media's fault because we

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Speaker 5: created this double standard, like not just the media, government,

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Speaker 5: because you know, people will say things like Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: is a threat to democracy. But as I told the

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Speaker 5: Vice President, I don't feel like the administration acted like it.

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Speaker 5: Like Merrick Garland could have, you know, arrested Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: a long time ago for leading an attempted to cool

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Speaker 5: with his country, but he chose not to. So now

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Speaker 5: when you choose not to, you get Donald Trump at

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Speaker 5: you know, dinners, telling jokes. So it doesn't even look

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Speaker 5: like he's a guy that has ninety plus criminal charges

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Speaker 5: who've been convicted of thirty thirty.

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Speaker 4: Four of them already or whatever.

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Speaker 5: The number was, you don't even look at him as

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Speaker 5: you know what he actually is, which is a true

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Speaker 5: threat to our democracy. Like I was reading something in

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Speaker 5: The New York Times the other day and it said

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Speaker 5: how this election is a moment of truth to Donald Trump,

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Speaker 5: and they just laid out every single thing he's ever

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Speaker 5: been accused of in life. This guy should have been

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Speaker 5: disqualified from running for president a long, long, long, long

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Speaker 5: time ago. And if Kamala Harris or President Obama or

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Speaker 5: a Bill Clinton back in the day, any of those

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Speaker 5: people had said one of the things that Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: has said are done one of the things Donald Trump's done,

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Speaker 5: they'd be disqualified already.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's bring in our guest, Astad Herndon. He's a

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Speaker 1: national politics reporter for the New York Times. He's so

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Speaker 1: the politics podcast The Run Up. In twenty nineteen, he

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Speaker 1: was the Times campaign reporter for Kamala Harris's presidential campaign.

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Speaker 1: And the three of us have something in common. We

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Speaker 1: have all interviewed Kamala Harris. So I thought it would

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Speaker 1: be interesting for us to compare notes and talk about

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Speaker 1: her interview style and then talk about the state of

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Speaker 1: the race.

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Speaker 2: Highest ed, thank you for doing this.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, thank y'all for having me. I really appreciate being

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Speaker 6: here and y'all hearing us out.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, we were just talking and we were

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Speaker 1: saying that nothing, as you overheard, seems to affect Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: I think the word teflon presidency was first came to

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Speaker 1: be talking about Ronald Reagan, I believe. And now I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure what's stronger than teflon. And I guess teflon

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Speaker 1: is now considered a dangerous substance. But I don't know

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Speaker 1: what it is about Donald Trump that nothing sticks no

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Speaker 1: matter what he does. Ostead, what do you think is

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Speaker 1: the reason for that that people are willing to forgive

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Speaker 1: so many host things?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think to what you know, Charlemagne

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Speaker 6: just said, I agree that if half the things that

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Speaker 6: Donald Trump is said are done, one percent of the

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Speaker 6: things Donald Trump is said have done had been you know,

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Speaker 6: has was true about the Democratic candidate or even most

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Speaker 6: other Republicans, you would see them pretty clearly disqualify from

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Speaker 6: the jump. I mean, I think we know some of

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Speaker 6: the answers to this, like there is a different type

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Speaker 6: of relationship with supporter that he fosters. I think it's

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Speaker 6: important to see Trump as a more movement candidate than

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Speaker 6: that's particularly party figure, because his voters feel as if

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Speaker 6: they know and can interpret what he believes more so

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Speaker 6: than mainstream media, more so to the things that they

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Speaker 6: hear and read. They're willing even to dismiss stuff that

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Speaker 6: doesn't fit within that overall picture. But I guess I'm

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Speaker 6: not someone who thinks that this stuff hasn't affected Donald Trump.

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Speaker 6: Donald Trump is the second most unpopular presidential candidate who's

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Speaker 6: ever run. He just happens to be running against people

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Speaker 6: who were just as impopular as him, particularly in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 6: I think, and much of this race against Joe Biden.

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Speaker 6: In fact, I frankly would go even further and say,

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Speaker 6: if the Democratic Party had kind of followed through on

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Speaker 6: the plan they implied in twenty twenty, where Biden didn't run,

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Speaker 6: they held a primary, worked out some of their kind

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Speaker 6: of internal ideological shifts, and then produced a nominee, even

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Speaker 6: if that nominee was still Kamala Harris, I think that

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Speaker 6: person would have been in a much stronger position than

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Speaker 6: they currently find themselves, because I don't think Donald Trump

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Speaker 6: actually is all that massively popular. I think Donald Trump

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Speaker 6: has a hard ceiling of popularity that is greater than

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Speaker 6: most other politicians. But what we know is that the

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Speaker 6: anti Trump coalition is one that is just as strong,

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Speaker 6: if not stronger. We saw that in the midterms, We've

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Speaker 6: seen that in special elections. We see that kind of

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Speaker 6: over and over, and frankly, it's what gives democratics some

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Speaker 6: confidence even as this looks really fifty to fifty. So

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Speaker 6: I guess I would take the other side and say

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Speaker 6: I don't think that Donald Trump is fully teflon. I

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Speaker 6: think that a lot of the things are just priced

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Speaker 6: in for most people, so they see him as untrustworthy.

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Speaker 6: They see him as someone who will fly out rules

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Speaker 6: and norms. But I think for a lot of people

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Speaker 6: that's being held up against a desire for change that

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Speaker 6: he can also represent when Democrats that feel a little

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Speaker 6: more status quo, which I do think they do feel now,

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Speaker 6: and part of that is part of the process question. Like,

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Speaker 6: I don't think it was inherent that Kamala Harris felt

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Speaker 6: like that. I think there was a version of that

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Speaker 6: that did feel like a big new way forward some ways.

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Speaker 6: I think that this process has played out has hurt

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Speaker 6: their ability to cast themselves as that well let's.

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Speaker 1: Talk about this whole idea of having a more open primary,

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Speaker 1: given that there were only a few months between the

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Speaker 1: time Joe Biden stepped down or decided not to run

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Speaker 1: and the election itself. I mean, it's great to say

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Speaker 1: that in hindsight, right Astead, And I'd love to hear

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Speaker 1: what Charlemagne says about this as well. But do you

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Speaker 1: really think it would have put the Democrats in a

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Speaker 1: stronger position. I mean, that's sort of a fantasy, isn't it.

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Speaker 6: I hear why you're saying that, But I was there

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Speaker 6: in early twenty twenty three asking them the same questions

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Speaker 6: about Biden's age. It was only the evidence was there

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Speaker 6: that the public thought he was too old for a

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Speaker 6: second term. The donor money was there for interest in

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Speaker 6: the open and other candidates. It was their own deference

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Speaker 6: to Joe Biden that put them in this position. It's

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Speaker 6: the only thing that put them in this position is

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Speaker 6: their traditional deference to his reelections. I'm really talking about

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Speaker 6: early twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you're saying if he had dropped out a year early.

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Speaker 6: I'm saying, if he would have followed through and what

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Speaker 6: he implied to the public in twenty twenty, which is

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Speaker 6: that he would be a transitional president lead to another

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Speaker 6: generation of Democrats.

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Speaker 4: They wouldn't be in this position.

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Speaker 6: I think a lot of their voters assumed that they

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Speaker 6: wouldn't be in this position, and that the party would

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Speaker 6: have a new conversation with itself in an open primary way.

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Speaker 6: But that's obviously not how it developed. He ran and

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Speaker 6: folks stuck by him for a year and a half,

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Speaker 6: two years, and then by the time I think it

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Speaker 6: became really clear that something different needed to happen after

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Speaker 6: the debate, there was no real's plan B.

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Speaker 4: There was no other option, I think.

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Speaker 6: So I guess I say that to say, I don't

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Speaker 6: think there's a different way this could have developed after

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Speaker 6: they put themselves in the position they put themselves in,

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Speaker 6: got it, But I do think there were different options,

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Speaker 6: and so somehow I think the conversation has to start

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Speaker 6: not just in what they could have done with Kamala

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Speaker 6: Harris's message or what she can do individually to win

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Speaker 6: these people back in the short term. I think the

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Speaker 6: biggest thing they could have done is recognized that a

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Speaker 6: lot of the country wanted a different direction or thought

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Speaker 6: of the Democratic Party in a transitory period, and they

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Speaker 6: ignored that evidence for way too long.

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Speaker 4: That's all I'm saying. Yeah, I I agree with a

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Speaker 4: set one hundred percent.

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Speaker 5: I was a person that was calling for Joe Biden

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Speaker 5: to step down, you know, a year ago, two years ago,

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Speaker 5: you know, just because I knew that if we kept

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Speaker 5: going the way that we was going, there was no

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Speaker 5: possible way that you know, Joe Biden could win in November.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, I think that he should have been a

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Speaker 5: transitional president, like that should have been the plan. But

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Speaker 5: it shouldn't have been just up to him. It should

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Speaker 5: have been everybody around him should have known, like, hey,

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty, you're gonna run, You're gonna win, but you

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Speaker 5: got to set up the next generation of Democrats. The

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Speaker 5: only thing I would say is maybe three four years ago,

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Speaker 5: it didn't feel like Democrats had.

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Speaker 4: That strong of a bench.

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Speaker 5: But you know now, I remember Joe Biden said toward

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Speaker 5: the end of last year, he was leaving one of

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Speaker 5: the press conferences and they asked him, they said, you

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Speaker 5: know who else can beat Trump except for you? When

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Speaker 5: he turned around and he was like, there's about fifty

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Speaker 5: of us that could beat Trump. And I was like, well,

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Speaker 5: line him up, because I felt like when he said

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Speaker 5: that it was true, right. I felt like Dumingapiro, I

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Speaker 5: felt like Gretchen Whitmer, I felt like, you know, Wes Moore,

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Speaker 5: I felt like the Vice president, Kamala Harris like I

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Speaker 5: felt like there was people, you know, who would have

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Speaker 5: been more formidable opponents.

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Speaker 4: So I think that the Democrats, you know, they they

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Speaker 4: just didn't have a plan.

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Speaker 1: To me, I think they had a bench, but the

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Speaker 1: bench needed a lot of I don't know, to use

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Speaker 1: a sports metaphor, they needed a lot of practice, and

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Speaker 1: they needed to be in front of a national audience.

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Speaker 1: And some of those people you just mentioned, Josh Shapiro,

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Speaker 1: Gretchen Whitmer, definitely Wes Moore, who I like and I

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Speaker 1: think he has a great political future. But they are

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Speaker 1: very unproven on a national stage. So I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: how strong the bench actually was. And I think part

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Speaker 1: of the problem is what Astead was saying. They didn't

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Speaker 1: have an opportunity to develop the bench because Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: was so entrenched in the presidency. I want to tell

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Speaker 1: you all about the Cancer Straight Talk podcast from Memorial

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Speaker 1: I thought we would talk about Kamala Harris as an

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Speaker 1: interview subject, because that's something the three of us have

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Speaker 1: in common. Instead, Charlemagne and I have all interviewed the

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Speaker 1: Vice president, and I think we have different impressions. I

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Speaker 1: was asking Charlemagne about Charla. I have a hard time

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Speaker 1: calling you Charlotte, but I'll call you Charlotte charlt and

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Speaker 1: he was saying he found her to be very disciplined,

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Speaker 1: which made me smile because it's exactly what she said

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Speaker 1: when you said something about her being scripted. I think

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Speaker 1: she came back to you Astead in that twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: interview and said no, I'm just disciplined. How do you

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Speaker 1: think she's changed as a candidate. You've been watching her

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Speaker 1: interviews from your experience. Do you think she's getting better

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Speaker 1: or is it all sort of remaining the same.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's been an evolution, for sure.

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Speaker 6: I remember meeting with at that time Senator Kamala Harris

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Speaker 6: when she was getting ready to announce her presidential run

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Speaker 6: a year into her kind of time in Washington, and

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Speaker 6: I think it's just important to remember how different Democrats

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Speaker 6: felt at that time. They was really kind of set

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Speaker 6: between two polls being Joe Biden's moderateness in Bernie Sanders's progressiveness,

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Speaker 6: and there was a feeling for the folks who were

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Speaker 6: sitting out in the middle that you kind of just

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Speaker 6: had that the party was moving in an inevitably progressive direction.

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Speaker 6: And so she did things at that time like signing

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Speaker 6: on the healthcare bill, single payer, like embracing some progressive

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Speaker 6: stuff that she's obviously walked back. But I think it

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Speaker 6: was an uncomfortable fit even at that time. Like her

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Speaker 6: record is one that has always suggested a hodgepodge of

438
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 6: ideological ideas, a fluidity and a desire to kind of

439
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 6: yes of reject some of the more rigid, particularly hard

440
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 6: on crime stuff of the past, and also you know,

441
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 6: kind of leading in a I would say, more progressive direction,

442
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 6: but it's never been the leftissness of San Francisco in

443
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 6: the way that Republicans are describing.

444
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 4: And so at the.

445
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 6: Time you could kind of feel the odd pairing that

446
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 6: she was trying to do in that primary, and I

447
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 6: don't think it really served them that well. So I

448
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 6: remember to answer your first question, like I remember interviewing

449
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 6: her initially, and you could kind of feel a candidate

450
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 6: that was searching for the story they wanted to tell

451
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 6: amid this like very intense democratic landscape where Elizabeth Warren's

452
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 6: putting out a plan every five minutes and you got

453
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 6: Pete Boudajeedge doing an interview every day. Right where do

454
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 6: you find yourself in? That was really, I think fairly difficult.

455
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 6: I think she found a lot more of her voice

456
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 6: toward the end when it was going worse, to be honest,

457
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,479
Speaker 6: that's when you had them say, you know, she can

458
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 6: be tough against Trump or or she was embracing the

459
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 6: kind of prosecutor against a felon that I think they've

460
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 6: arrived at and it got her away from the progressive stuff.

461
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 6: She was never going to be a fit for people

462
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 6: who wanted Bernie Sanders to be a president. She was

463
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 6: never going to be a fit for people who are

464
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 6: more interested in more and they kind of had to

465
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 6: learn where that is. Interview wise, though she doesn't and

466
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 6: I don't know how you are feel but like, if

467
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 6: you're asking for a vision, if you're asking for a

468
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 6: root cause, if you're asking for I think some of

469
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 6: the answers we expect from typical presidential candidates, it's never

470
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 6: really the lane she wants to play in. I have

471
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 6: not found her to be like particularly reflective on that

472
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 6: front or like an affirmative case to lay out where

473
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 6: she stands on a lot of issues. But I do

474
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 6: think she's true at is, you know, executing a set play,

475
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 6: talking about decision making and being empathetic to a lot

476
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 6: of different communities. And so it reminds me of a

477
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 6: prosecutor in the way they come to issues because it's

478
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 6: not it's oftentimes a reactive role, it's oftentimes an accountability role.

479
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 6: It's not a vision setting role. And so sometimes I

480
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 6: think in the interviews you're feeling that tension because the

481
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 6: questions we're used to asking some of these candidates is

482
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 6: I don't think really the lane her her. She's existed

483
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 6: foremost in it's certainly a lawyer and a prosecutor, I

484
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 6: think more and that is the foremost identities I've come

485
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 6: to understand her through.

486
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 1: And maybe because she really deals with facts and evidence,

487
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: I think she has a hard time being theoretical and

488
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 1: as you said, visionary.

489
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 4: That's not really her laying.

490
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: I don't think, I know, because you know, I really

491
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to her about the conundrum the Biden

492
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: administration was finding itself in with Israel. And I said,

493
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: October seventh was horrible, horrific, unimaginable, the brutality, the barbarism

494
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: that the world heard about, there are no words. Having

495
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: said that, let's talk about where we are now. And

496
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: I think it was last January, and you know, the

497
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: Palestinian deaths were mounting, and I just wanted to give

498
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: her permission, and I asked her about how challenging this was,

499
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: because it is the most complex and historically complicated situation

500
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: there is. And instead of saying, you know, picking up

501
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: where I left off, she said, Katie, let's talk about

502
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: October seventh and I was like, but I just basically

503
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: did that. But she seems and so many interviews I've

504
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: listened to she does the same thing. And I think

505
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: that's why people feel she's scripted, because she often answers

506
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: questions the same way. And that's why I think again, Charlotte,

507
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,719
Speaker 1: that they think that she relies on talking points because

508
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: you often hear the same points again and again and again.

509
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: But you found that to be disciplined, not frustrating.

510
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, because once she's explained it in the the

511
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 5: last conversation we had when she said, you know, she

512
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 5: has to be disciplined and you have to repeat things

513
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 5: over and over and over and over in this era

514
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 5: that we're in, I agree with that. And you know,

515
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 5: there are the double standards because we act like Donald

516
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 5: Trump doesn't do the same exact thing, like Donald Trump will.

517
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 4: Eat the same thing over and over, same rhetoric, over

518
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 4: and over.

519
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 5: All politicians do that, like I can't think of a

520
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 5: Polo Petician who doesn't. I just think that we're in

521
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 5: this news cycle in twenty twenty four where we see

522
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 5: every single conversation, we see the conversations where she's just

523
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 5: talking locally to people in Pennsylvania, locally in Michigan. But

524
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 5: then we see the big national conversations and a lot

525
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 5: of this rhetoric is the same, and I think it

526
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 5: starts to become redundant to us what the reality is. Like,

527
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 5: if you have a message that you're trying to get

528
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 5: across to people, and you're trying to nail these points,

529
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 5: you are going to repeat yourself over and over.

530
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 6: I think that's totally true, And certainly the comparison to

531
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 6: Donald Trump isn't a fair one. Like Trump doesn't answer

532
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 6: anything and has often, even increasingly over the last four

533
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 6: to eight years, done less interviews, done less all of

534
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 6: that type of stuff. The only thing I would say,

535
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 6: and this is why, and I think some of this

536
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 6: is based in my experience with her presidential campaign, is

537
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 6: like there, I think Trump has told a you know,

538
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 6: maybe bashing on this, but I think Trump has told

539
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 6: a consistent story on the biggest issues that he cares about,

540
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 6: Like he's always been basically saying the same thing about immigration,

541
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 6: he's always been basically saying the same thing about crime,

542
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 6: and like he has changed on.

543
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 4: Thirty forty other areas.

544
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 6: But you kind of have a sense of the issues

545
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 6: he cares the most about and the ways he will

546
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 6: go about it. And one thing I think is different

547
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 6: with Harris is the story of twenty nineteen when she

548
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 6: was introducing herself to a lot of the country is

549
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 6: not exactly the same place the party is now, and

550
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 6: so I partly think that more than just individual interviews

551
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 6: or policy or vision, we're really talking about those things

552
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 6: as a proxy of how to get to know someone's

553
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 6: true beliefs, what is motivating them, what they prioritize more

554
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 6: than other stuff.

555
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: And you don't think she's done that well.

556
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 6: And I don't think it's been consistent enough for people

557
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 6: to really grab on to, Like I know that because

558
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 6: the voters I talked to still feel like they haven't heard.

559
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 6: And it's not because he hasn't done enough interviews. I

560
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 6: don't think it's not because she hasn't. I just think

561
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 6: that hasn't been at the story that you started with

562
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 6: and the story you've landed with.

563
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 4: There's still some distance there that has not been explained.

564
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 4: In my opinion.

565
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 5: Well, I think one thing that we have to keep

566
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 5: in mind to talking about man one hundred days of

567
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 5: Vice President Kamala Harris running for president versus twelve years

568
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 5: of Donald Trump running for president, So of course we

569
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 5: know all Donald Trump's messaging. Of course we know where

570
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 5: he's staying on the biggest issues. She hasn't even had

571
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 5: a chance to, you know, create that type of campaign

572
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 5: for herself, Like you know, when she ran in twenty twenty,

573
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 5: she was only here for a split second. Then she

574
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 5: became vice president and had to play that role, so

575
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 5: we didn't hear from her at all.

576
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 4: Now you got one.

577
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 5: Hundred days or however long it was to tell the

578
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 5: American people what it is you're about versus you know,

579
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 5: going against someone for twelve years. And to your point

580
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 5: about what you said, a set about where she stood

581
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 5: in twenty nineteen versus now is much different. And we

582
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 5: all admit that the party was the Democratic Party was

583
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 5: out of there goddamn mind in twenty nineteen.

584
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 4: I think that's an important point.

585
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 5: Like I'm so glad that I'm so glad that she's

586
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 5: more of a of a interest I really am. Like

587
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 5: I think that the right was too far this way,

588
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 5: the left is too far this way. I'm glad we

589
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 5: got somebody that's just in the middle. That's what we

590
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 5: need to be.

591
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 6: Because all I'm saying, is that is a story that

592
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 6: she could tell? You know that, I guess so all.

593
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 6: And I can tell you in my experience when I

594
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 6: have asked what has changed then from there? And you

595
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 6: can say, looking back, I think the party went too

596
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 6: far in one direction. And I think people will hear

597
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 6: that for sure, And so I guess I'm saying there

598
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 6: is an unwillingness to make that leader.

599
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: Don't you think that she'd be afraid to alienate progressives

600
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: if she said something like that Astead.

601
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 4: I think that's probably true.

602
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 6: But she's camp her final message is campaigning with Liz

603
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 6: Cheney and Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconson. She's already basically done it,

604
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 6: you know, she's already She's the thing she's made most

605
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 6: clear over the last couple of months to answer whether

606
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 6: the differences between you and Biden question are basically that

607
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 6: she's more of a centrist, she's more of a mother,

608
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 6: And so I think she's basically doing it. She's just

609
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 6: not making it clear. And I think that's a messaging

610
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 6: choice that we've seen from the campaign, even before she

611
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 6: was the nominee. There's clearly a desire to be everything

612
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 6: that everyone because they want to recreate, I think an

613
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 6: anti Trump. They don't want to break up the anti

614
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 6: Trump coalition. I just think at that point then you're

615
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 6: seeing some points on the vision scale too, and so

616
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 6: that's the only thing that's the choice I think they're making.

617
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you all about her having to

618
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: define herself in one hundred days. I just wish that

619
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: she had been more forward facing or public facing during

620
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: her years as vice president. And I think Joe Biden's

621
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: hesitancy to do interviews, to get out there to do

622
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: unscripted moments really hurt her because she was sort of

623
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: in the witness protection program for four years.

624
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 4: Yes, that was my biggest critique of her.

625
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 5: You know, when I made a statement one time that

626
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 5: I felt I was disappointed, you know, and I had

627
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 5: a little bit of regret, you know, voting for that ticket.

628
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 5: Not that I would have voted for Trump, but I

629
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 5: just was like, damn, you know, I don't know if

630
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 5: I could do this again come November.

631
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 4: And I don't know if that means I would you know,

632
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 4: sit out.

633
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 5: No, I would. I wouldn't have sat out. I would

634
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 5: have voted, but I just wasn't willing to endorse. I

635
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 5: wasn't going to tell people, Hey, I'm voting for President Biden.

636
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 4: But that was my biggest partiker. My biggest partiker her

637
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 4: was like, Man.

638
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 5: I voted for this ticket because of you, and because

639
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 5: I thought Joe Biden was going to be a transitional president.

640
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 5: I thought that, even though we know what the role

641
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 5: of vice president traditionally has been, because you're a woman,

642
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 5: because you're a woman of color, because you can speak

643
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 5: to a lot of things in this moment that he can't,

644
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 5: I just thought she would have been, like you said,

645
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 5: Miss Cork, a little bit more front facing.

646
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 4: And when I didn't get that, I was disappointed.

647
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 5: But I think I personally had an unrealistic expectation of

648
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 5: what I expected from her.

649
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 4: All I'm saying is I don't think that was unrealistic.

650
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 6: I think they pretty clearly implied that to most Americans

651
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 6: in twenty twenty. I think the age was a big

652
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 6: concern about Joe Biden in the primary when he was

653
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 6: running four years ago, and they made those statements about

654
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 6: transitional president, about pos signaling one term her selection. I

655
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 6: remember what the campaign was telling reporters on background. They

656
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,239
Speaker 6: set up the idea that you should think about this

657
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 6: as a two person ticket and that the future would

658
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 6: flow through at least start with the Kamala hairs, right,

659
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 6: And so I just think I don't think the plan

660
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 6: that would have changed some of this stuff is all

661
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 6: that mysterious.

662
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 4: I just think they backed off of it.

663
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 6: And for my reporting, it was pretty clear that in

664
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 6: the first couple of years of Harris there was some

665
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 6: stuff about her stepping back from media, particularly after the

666
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 6: Lester Hold interview, but much more important was a White

667
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 6: House that was trying to insulate Joe Biden. And so

668
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 6: I do think, to your point, Katie, like she was

669
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,479
Speaker 6: a victim somewhat of that strategy because they created this

670
00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 6: adversarial media relationship that I'd never understood. Like I like,

671
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 6: you know, but it's okay probably for Biden, who has

672
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 6: such a brand in the country and people said have

673
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 6: a sense that they know. I think it matters more

674
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 6: for someone like Harris, where that is not as defined.

675
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 4: And it didn't.

676
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 5: And it didn't help that there was so much negative

677
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 5: stories coming out of the White House about her, and

678
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 5: a lot of that was was from the administration. It

679
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 5: was people in the administration who was putting out these

680
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 5: sort of hit pieces about her and saying out she

681
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 5: has aspirations beyond being vice president, and so what you know,

682
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 5: she can't keep anybody on her staff, you know, right?

683
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: Why would the administration do that? You guys, why would that?

684
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: I mean just because they were being assholes? I mean,

685
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: or were they threatened by her? Why would the administration

686
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: do something like that put out all these bad stories.

687
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 5: I think somebody was scared of a potential president Kamala

688
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 5: Harris like I think of.

689
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 4: I think it's a fair read.

690
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 6: I would say that the tensions between president and vice

691
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 6: president are there's often those ten, right, But this one

692
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 6: was different, I think partially because you had the looming

693
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 6: question of age, and the White House's strategy was to

694
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 6: deny that that was a real problem not just amongst

695
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 6: but in the country, or that that was not a

696
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 6: real Biden liability. And so it was coming from the

697
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 6: White House an administration to say that Joe Biden is

698
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 6: the only person who can beat Donald Trump, that Joe

699
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 6: Biden is the only one who you know, and so

700
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 6: all of some of that stuff I remember. I'll tell

701
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 6: you an actual story. I remember one time talking to

702
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 6: this White House official and saying, Okay, you know, I

703
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 6: was building my profile of the Harris that we were

704
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 6: doing in the Times magazine last year, and one thing

705
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 6: I had heard was that they had seen some data

706
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 6: that said when she goes out and delivers messages specifically

707
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 6: on abortion, they get big movement among independence. So I'm

708
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 6: running this past the White House and the way that

709
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 6: you think they would support because it's their vice president.

710
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 6: And the thing the person told me was actually like, Hey,

711
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 6: that's not specific to her, that's anybody who gives the

712
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 6: Biden message. And that is the type of weirdo relationship

713
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 6: I'm talking about, because on one hand, you could see

714
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 6: you would think that they would see her as a

715
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 6: as a valuable asset, right because the duck, because they're incentive.

716
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 6: And I think this is like how some of those

717
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 6: White House ambitions work, is to insulate their own candidate.

718
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 6: Sometimes that comes at the expense even of other Democrats.

719
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: Well, during that profile, I know that you said you

720
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: felt like you were on trial when you were interviewing her.

721
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: I want to play a short clip of the interview

722
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: you did with her in twenty twenty three.

723
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: Another thing in twenty and twenty was, obviously those things

724
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 3: were happening at the time that Biden was making his

725
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: selection for running me and I was reading stories at

726
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 3: the time that was basically saying, very clearly, you know

727
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 3: the time story Harry Reid says that you know he

728
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 3: came to decision that he needed to choose a black woman.

729
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 3: While that is obviously about you, that's not necessarily you personally,

730
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: but your identity.

731
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 4: How should it matter?

732
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 3: Does it matter that that narrative has existed that Biden

733
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: needed to choose someone or who was a black person,

734
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 3: And should it matter?

735
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 7: I don't think I understand your question.

736
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 3: I'm saying, does it matter that that kind of narrative

737
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: around Biden needed to choose a black woman as a

738
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 3: running mate still exists and has hovered over that selection,

739
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 3: or is.

740
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 7: That it happened? I don't I don't think I understand you.

741
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:22,479
Speaker 7: Honestly don't understand your question.

742
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 4: I'm saying that.

743
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 7: He chose a black woman. That woman is me, So

744
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 7: I don't know that anything lingers about what he should choose.

745
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 7: He has chosen. He asked me to join him on

746
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 7: the ticket.

747
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 4: I guess I was. I can move on. I want

748
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 4: to ask I just gave up.

749
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: She wasn't picking up what you were putting down as.

750
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 6: She knows getting well what I'm talking about. I know

751
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 6: she knows what I'm talking about, you know, and it's

752
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 6: it's fine. I think it's so. I think this is

753
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 6: my point about sometimes she also doesn't want to be

754
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 6: put in the position I think sometimes journalists do more

755
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 6: often of like respond to the thing you don't want

756
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 6: to respond to, right, And so I think that the

757
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 6: whole time I was doing that story, I heard so

758
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 6: much about how the diversity, higherness of it all unfair

759
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 6: or you know whatever, was still part of the reason

760
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 6: people were kind of invalidating her selection and I think

761
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 6: minimizing the prospect that she could be the eventual leader

762
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 6: of the Democratic Party. And so you would talk to

763
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 6: Democrats about what happens after Joe Biden and they wouldn't

764
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 6: even include Kamala Harrison the picture. And that was of

765
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 6: informing so many of those questions at the time. It's

766
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 6: because it seemed very clear that some of this was

767
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 6: really tied to what was a subtle dismissing of her role.

768
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 6: And I think what I wanted to do in that

769
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 6: is put it in front of her to respond to.

770
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 6: And I think that there is somewhat a subtle way

771
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 6: that discrimination works, where particularly in political media, people have

772
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 6: these kind of silent, anonymous conversations around you and they

773
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 6: won't give you the dignity of saying this is what I.

774
00:37:59,040 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 4: Think about that.

775
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 6: And so I thought, Okay, she would appreciate being able

776
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 6: to be like this is ridiculous, blah blah blah blah blah,

777
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 6: or whatever she wants to decide. But that's a critical

778
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 6: misunderstanding of that I made, because I don't think she

779
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 6: wants to do that, and frankly, I think she found

780
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 6: it insulting to bring it up to her.

781
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: I think also you pointed out that she's not particularly

782
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: introspective right in these interviews, not in that way.

783
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 6: She's not gonna do it with you, I don't. I

784
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 6: think she does it with some other people. She's not

785
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 6: gonna do it with me. She's not gonna do it,

786
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 6: and that type of set it.

787
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I also think that, you know, man, if

788
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 5: there's anything that would like I don't want to say

789
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 5: conflict right because I don't know if you remember, but

790
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 5: there was, uh, he didn't just pick the vice president

791
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 5: like there was was a huge too.

792
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 4: There was a there was a lot.

793
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 6: Of tension, radicitions, room convo, back combo.

794
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 4: They did.

795
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 5: They did the big They did a big, big write

796
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 5: up in USA Today where it was like Angela Raie

797
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 5: and Sonny Houston and all these different black women who

798
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 5: were demanding, you need to pick a black woman as

799
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 5: you're running mate. And you know, there was a lot

800
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 5: of pushback on that because there was all of these

801
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 5: rumors about, oh, I don't think the first lady at

802
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 5: the time, Joe Biden didn't necessarily like Kamala, and a

803
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 5: lot of people around Biden didn't like Kamala because of

804
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 5: the way Kamala came it.

805
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, Joe Biden during the debate.

806
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: Wasn't it all James Clyburn, you guys, wasn't it James Clyburn,

807
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: who basically it was not.

808
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 5: Cliburn wanted the Supreme Court justin did not care about

809
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 5: the VP, Yes right, he did not. Cliburn did not

810
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 5: care about to be pep to climberk were like, you

811
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 5: need a black woman Supreme Court judge.

812
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: That's so interesting was that misreported astead for a long time.

813
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 6: No, I think I think people have overinflated Clyburn's role

814
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 6: a little bit. You know, I think the mythology posts

815
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 6: South Carolina primary has become very large. But he's really

816
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 6: clear about this, and he's been clear about this from

817
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 6: the job. He did not he did not he did

818
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 6: not say you need to choose Kamala Harris. He said

819
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 6: he wanted his Supreme Court justice and he got it right.

820
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 6: Like it was a big campaign discussion, to your point,

821
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 6: like they basically had an internal fight among the Biden

822
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 6: campaign of whether they had to choose a black woman,

823
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 6: and there were people on multiple sides in that fight.

824
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 4: But the truth is that Harris was.

825
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 6: The only one who was qualified in a non race

826
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 6: way and also sufficed this kind of racial conversation that

827
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 6: was happening too, right, So I don't think it was

828
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 6: just identity, you know, I don't think it was only that,

829
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 6: but I do think it played a huge role, and

830
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 6: particularly at that time when we had the post Floyd moment.

831
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 6: And so I think to your point about twenty twenty

832
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 6: seeming kind of crazy, like the fact that this happened

833
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 6: so publicly was so unique anyway, And so that was

834
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 6: part of the reason I was bringing those questions to

835
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 6: her is because I know that conversation reached her I

836
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 6: know that even the kind of backlash to that reached

837
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 6: her too, And so the difference is she does not

838
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 6: want that, and other people said it.

839
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 4: There were people in the story who.

840
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 6: Were like, you know, I think that they have you know,

841
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 6: pigeonholed her and blah blah blah bla blah. But she

842
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 6: doesn't want that to come from her, And I partially

843
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 6: understand that. I just want something that's not the type

844
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 6: of adversariness that then acts like you're crazy for asking it.

845
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 5: Dana Bass, I remember this vividly. Dana Bash was interviewing

846
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 5: President Biden. They looked like they were outside somewhere, and

847
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 5: Dana Bass said to him, Charlamagne and a host of

848
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 5: others say, you have to choose a black woman as

849
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 5: a running mate, and Joe goals, well, Miss Jim Carvern says,

850
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 5: I don't ready. So this happened on CNN. So these

851
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 5: conversations were happening everywhere.

852
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 4: This is a fact.

853
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

854
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

855
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

856
00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: wake Up Call by going to Katie Couric dot com

857
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: you think she's improved in her interviews as stead I do.

858
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 6: I think she's done more of them, and so I

859
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 6: think doing more is usually better. You know, there's multiple

860
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 6: ways for politicians to think about interviews, but the best

861
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 6: strategy I've learned is to is when they see it

862
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 6: as an opportunity to get their message across. And I

863
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 6: think there's been a change in thinking a little bit.

864
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 6: But I have to also say they've changed the type

865
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 6: of people they talk to, and that's been a big

866
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 6: difference in the last four years too. Like they I

867
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 6: don't think they're like, you know, anti New York Times

868
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 6: or mainstream media of you know, kind of incentive or

869
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 6: you know, the message they've been doing to kind of

870
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 6: pull them away from that type of stuff as an accident,

871
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 6: I think they prefer talking to people who are more

872
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 6: explicitly supportive. You can have more intimate conversations. I know,

873
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 6: podcasting and that stuff. I'm not saying like that stuff

874
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 6: is bad. I'm just saying it's it's kind of been

875
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 6: zero sum where they've done more interviews with people who

876
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 6: support them a they've done less with more traditional media.

877
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 6: And partially I think we underrated the intentionality of that.

878
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: Does that help them, because to me, I think people

879
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: are craving not necessarily a Brettbear interview, And I think

880
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: Charlemagne did ask some really good questions during his interming.

881
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 4: I'm not talking about the quality of questions. I think

882
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 4: that interview is good.

883
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 6: I'm saying that they also, but I'm saying they they're

884
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 6: choosing the places really specifically.

885
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: But what do you think that they're these questions, They're

886
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: they're appealing to different groups like the Call Her Daddy

887
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: podcasts and the Breakfast Club. Obviously, she knows that there

888
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: are a lot of blackmail listeners for the Breakfast Club,

889
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: so it seems like they're really being very intentional about

890
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: reaching a certain audience. At the same time, do you

891
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: think it's hurt her not doing an interview with a

892
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: fair minded but tough traditional journalists who will really kind

893
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: of go through some of the issues, not talk over her,

894
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: not feel like they're reading Donald Trump's talking points. What

895
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: Brettbear kind of felt like somebody who who really asks

896
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: some some really well crafted, well thought out questions.

897
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: You don't think that's hurt her, you guys, I think.

898
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 4: She might need one big prime time interview.

899
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 2: Well, she did sixty minutes with Bill Whitaker.

900
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 5: She did, I'm gonna be honest with you know, they

901
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 5: respect to sixty minutes. I hate how they do interviews.

902
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 5: I can't stand when they narry when they asked the

903
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 5: question then narrate the answer.

904
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 4: I hate. I cannot stand that. They drives me crazy.

905
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 4: But I think she needed to.

906
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 5: Do one big prime time conversation for America from a

907
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 5: from a traditional journalist.

908
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 6: I do agree that would help a lot. Yeah, And

909
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 6: I think it's just a matter. And to me, it's

910
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 6: like not just going there, but what are they willing

911
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,439
Speaker 6: to say when they're there?

912
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 4: Right?

913
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 6: And I think that, you know, the second to switch happened.

914
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 6: The overall question in my head is are we still

915
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 6: talking about the Joe Biden second term with the new

916
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 6: person at the top, or is there something different about

917
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 6: Kamala Harris that they want to lay out and make

918
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 6: a different type of break from the administration or embrace

919
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 6: it kind of change mantle more. And they've slowly gotten

920
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 6: around to doing some breaks with the administration, but it's

921
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 6: been really small. And I think that's the question I

922
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 6: really have that I think a more traditional interview would

923
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 6: really lay out is to the point about the vision question,

924
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 6: what is that and what is the differences between that

925
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 6: and what your just generic Democrat would be.

926
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 1: Well, she famously said on the view that she couldn't

927
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: think of anything that she would have done differently in

928
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: the Biden administration. She did say to Brett Baer, I'm

929
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: not Joe Biden. I'm a different person. I'll bring my

930
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: life experiences, my professional background, YadA, YadA, YadA, But she

931
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: still didn't really, I don't think crystallize how they differ.

932
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: And do you think that's because she didn't want to

933
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: offend Joe Biden. I read somewhere that he kind of

934
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: gave her permission to say, yes, it's okay, you can

935
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: separate yourself from my agenda or my administration.

936
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: Do you think that's true.

937
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've seen her say I saw her saying at

938
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 6: different times when she was at this question. I thin

939
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 6: couple days ago. You know, traditionally vice presidents don't criticize

940
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 6: the president. All I would say the Democrats is like

941
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 6: that sort of deference is part of the reason they

942
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 6: have got themselves in this in the first place. Like

943
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 6: their inability to see this administration as unpopular is a

944
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 6: big problem, and so they can keep pretending as if

945
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 6: people don't have those feelings about the administration, and then

946
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 6: I think their play is basically an anti Trump one,

947
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 6: which might work, or they have to acknowledge that some

948
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 6: of that is in the air, and then it becomes

949
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 6: more important to lay out what those differences might be.

950
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 6: And so I really like and so to your point, like,

951
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 6: I haven't seen that become clear. But I think that's

952
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 6: downstream of a bigger problem I think they're facing, which

953
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 6: is that they have not really come to terms with

954
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 6: the fact that they cannot just be the Biden administration

955
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 6: and tell people that's okay. For as much as they

956
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 6: want to tell people the economy is better in the

957
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 6: numbers than you might feel, as much as they want

958
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 6: to say like Gaza would be worse under Trump, so

959
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 6: get over it.

960
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 4: Like that's not.

961
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,959
Speaker 6: Really working with those people, and so they keep going

962
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 6: back to that. Well, I just think it's kind of

963
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 6: a risky one to do because the kind of lecture

964
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 6: strategy see Obama with black Man a week or two ago.

965
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 4: I don't think that's a winning one.

966
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 5: There were two places that I feel like she could

967
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 5: really break away from Biden.

968
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 4: She's doing one of.

969
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 5: Them where she talks about her opportunity economy, like when

970
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 5: she talking about rebuilding the middle class, when she talks about,

971
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 5: you know, wanting to provide people with the opportunity to

972
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 5: own a small business, own a home, I think speaking

973
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 5: directly to that, directly rebuilding the class, I think that

974
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 5: is very That could be something she could break away

975
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 5: from Biden with and talking about how, you know, you

976
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 5: have these conversations about the middle class. When we was

977
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 5: in Detroit, my man e t Eric he had he

978
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 5: said something to her, I hear all of this talk

979
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 5: about the middle class, but how do we get people

980
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 5: from poverty?

981
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 4: For sure? Middle class? That could be the way to

982
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 4: break away. And another way to break away.

983
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 5: Is to simply say, hey, man, I feel like, you know,

984
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 5: this administration got a lot wrong with the border. Yeah,

985
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 5: you know, and and and and and and and it's

986
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 5: gonna take by partisan legislation to fix the border. The

987
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 5: border has been a problem under a lot of different administrations.

988
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 5: So you know, Democrats Republicans were gonna have to come

989
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 5: together and fix this. And guess what, we did have

990
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 5: a bill that you know, Democrats agreed on Andy, Republicans

991
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 5: agreed on but with what Trump shot it down because

992
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 5: he didn't want us to get any political wins. But

993
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,959
Speaker 5: she should speak to that, like, she should really say, hey,

994
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 5: we got it.

995
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 4: We didn't get it right on the board, this administration

996
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 4: getting right.

997
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 5: I'm not the president, I'm the vice president, so I'm

998
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 5: just you know, riding with my guy. But I don't

999
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:34,720
Speaker 5: think we got it all the way right on the border.

1000
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 5: I'm going to be stronger.

1001
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 2: Why doesn't she do that because.

1002
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 5: Politicians just don't admit they wrong. Politicians don't want to

1003
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 5: admit because if I admit I was wrong on the border,

1004
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,479
Speaker 5: then that means the Republicans were right, so that gives

1005
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 5: them a political win, you know, so to speak.

1006
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 4: It's just that simple. They don't want to admit that

1007
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:51,879
Speaker 4: they got it wrong.

1008
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 6: I think those are all great of options that she

1009
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 6: has in front of her in terms of making a

1010
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 6: more explicit break, and I think it is just that

1011
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 6: kind of simple the o. It goes to something I

1012
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 6: said earlier though this one. I think they kind of

1013
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 6: like politics galaxy, bringing themselves out of doing the obvious thing.

1014
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 6: It's because she's already the Jimcrats are already kind of

1015
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 6: conceding the Trump point that the borders a problem. It's

1016
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 6: clear in their ads, it's clear in how they talk.

1017
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 6: It's they've done a one to eighty from how they

1018
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 6: talk about the border from four years ago when they

1019
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 6: were running. And so all I'm saying is that it's

1020
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 6: already there. What's not there is a clear explanation of

1021
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 6: how you transition or where you find yourself in that.

1022
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 6: And so some of that is a leadership question, Like

1023
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,280
Speaker 6: I would much rather be the person driving my party

1024
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 6: shifts in an election than a person feeling like I

1025
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 6: was just a weather vean and I'm flowing wherever the

1026
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 6: party's going. And so some of that is what I

1027
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 6: think they have to get comfortable and stepping into. And

1028
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 6: I just think at this point they're just gonna roll

1029
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 6: the dice with the election and kind of anti trumpness

1030
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 6: and call of the day. But like in the end,

1031
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 6: the question for her will be what does the party

1032
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,439
Speaker 6: look like under you? And there's no way to avoid that,

1033
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 6: you know, Like so when I hear like even when

1034
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 6: I hear like a bipartisan Council of Advisors with Republicans, yeah,

1035
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,320
Speaker 6: I think that does the signaling to the list Chaney

1036
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 6: types that you're open to more centrist ideas. But I

1037
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 6: also hear someone who's again seeding the vision question to

1038
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 6: other people, and I'm like, I don't think that really

1039
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 6: solves the biggest problem. I don't think people don't think

1040
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 6: you listen. I think people want to know what you believe,

1041
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 6: you know, and so I think that's a slight difference

1042
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 6: that they're not necessarily playing in right now. And I

1043
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 6: really think the answer is because they don't want those

1044
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 6: the beliefs to turn off the type of people who

1045
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 6: they can keep in line if it's just about beating Trump.

1046
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 4: You know. That was a question I had for her. Yeah,

1047
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 4: that I didn't get to because I only had an hour.

1048
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:44,760
Speaker 5: But it's like, do do black people people of color

1049
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 5: who run for president do they have to say we're

1050
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 5: going to have Republicans in our cabinet just to appeal America?

1051
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 4: That's a great question.

1052
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 5: I like, there's a certain sector of white America that

1053
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 5: people of color when they are because President Obama did it, yes,

1054
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 5: not doing it?

1055
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 4: They or do y'all have to do that just to appease?

1056
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: Is it just black candidates who who have said that

1057
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 1: in the past. I don't think so. I think other candidates.

1058
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 6: But I do think identity plays a big piece here

1059
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 6: because I think, like, think about how many times Obama

1060
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 6: made a point to clarify he just won't be the

1061
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 6: president of Black America.

1062
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 4: Like I think that there is something and the opposite

1063
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 4: is true too.

1064
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 6: Biden was free to talk about black people all the time,

1065
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 6: you know, like Biden made clear I will do things

1066
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 6: specifically for black communities in a way that I think

1067
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 6: black politicians sometimes scare away from.

1068
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 4: And I also think his brand as moderate.

1069
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 6: Yes it's true because he's been there for a long time,

1070
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 6: but I also think white manness allows you to pass

1071
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 6: some of those electability concerns. You know a story I

1072
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 6: will tell about hair specific to this point. Do you

1073
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 6: remember the second debate? You know, the first debate is

1074
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 6: the one she came to Biden about segregation and bustling, right,

1075
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,720
Speaker 6: But the second debate she was kind of a different person, yes,

1076
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 6: like and it felt Jekyl Heidi from the person you

1077
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 6: met in the first debate. And I remember asking one

1078
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 6: of her advisors like, WHOA, what was up with that?

1079
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,240
Speaker 6: Like what was the decision process there? And the answer

1080
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 6: I remember getting was we didn't want her to feel

1081
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 6: too much like a hard charging or angry black woman.

1082
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,479
Speaker 6: And so partly it was about show some different sides

1083
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 6: of yourself. And this is some white guy telling me,

1084
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 6: you know, classic dim consultant type.

1085
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 4: And I think, like, on one hand, you see.

1086
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 6: How that why that is the advice, But you're also

1087
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 6: pulling someone away from who they are, Like I think

1088
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 6: Kamala Harris is a fairly direct, fairly hard charging black

1089
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 6: woman and that's fine, Like that's the appeal, you know,

1090
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 6: is mean, that's when she's at her best. That's when

1091
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 6: you understand her the most, Like that's when it's clear.

1092
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 6: So so I think partly there is these ways they

1093
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 6: tell themselves women black people have to operate, And I'm like,

1094
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 6: is that rule true? Or if she is just who

1095
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 6: she is, then do people pick up on that?

1096
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 4: And that matters more.

1097
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 5: She's a prosecutor, she's a person who used to hold

1098
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 5: people accountable in those Senate here. When I watched her

1099
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 5: with Brett Baer, when she gets angry, she's like, all righty, Brett,

1100
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 5: cut that out, Like we're not doing that. When I

1101
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 5: had her on my TV show and I was staying

1102
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 5: to her like, who is the real president is Joe

1103
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 5: mansion or is it Joe Biden. She was like, Charlamaine,

1104
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 5: cut it out, stop talking like a Republican president and

1105
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 5: Biden is the president, and I'm Kamala Harris the vice president.

1106
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 4: Like she's at her best when she's when the fire

1107
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 4: is lit, when she's rosed than me.

1108
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 6: I think you get it more even in the interview right,

1109
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,720
Speaker 6: like I'm saying, like she is, it's who I think.

1110
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 6: And so sometimes I think I particularly learned this covering

1111
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,919
Speaker 6: her and Warren in the last primary. There's often these

1112
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 6: people in the back room that have decided who these

1113
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 6: people have to be. And I think, particularly among Democrats

1114
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 6: in the post Trump era, I just think that like

1115
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 6: being what is most true matters more, and like if

1116
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 6: you're up against Donald Trump, who is gonna play who's

1117
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,240
Speaker 6: gonna be himself every day of the week and lose

1118
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 6: on that front, I think inauthenticity is a much bigger

1119
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 6: risk than they acknowledge. And some of that stuff I

1120
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 6: do think is really tied to identity, blackness, and sexism.

1121
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: You know, my sister was running for governor of Virginia

1122
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: and she got sick and had to drop out, and

1123
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: I remember her saying to me, when you run for office,

1124
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: you have to be willing to lose. And I think

1125
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: what she meant was you have to adhere to some

1126
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: north star. You have to be who you are through

1127
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: and through. And I think you're right a set. I

1128
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: think that authenticity. You know, you can smell inauthenticity a

1129
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: mile away. So I think there is something that has

1130
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 1: felt slightly amorphous of who she really is deep down inside.

1131
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 6: And I guess I don't think she's I don't think

1132
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 6: she's in confusion about that, by the way, Like, I

1133
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 6: think this is actually about how you present and how

1134
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 6: you tell that story through politics and policy. Like I

1135
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 6: don't actually think she I think she knows who she is. Yeah,

1136
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 6: And so one of the it's about translating that into

1137
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,240
Speaker 6: a way that people can most understand. I remember learning

1138
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 6: that you know, advisors had asked her, did she want

1139
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 6: to call herself a pragmatic progressive?

1140
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 4: Right?

1141
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 7: Like?

1142
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 6: Is there a way that you can distill something so

1143
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 6: that people can have a sense of understanding how you

1144
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 6: make decisions?

1145
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 4: That is what I think is the thing we're talking about.

1146
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 1: The narrative over the past few weeks, And this is

1147
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,919
Speaker 1: something Charlemagne has waged into and I wanted your view

1148
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 1: on this is she's struggling with black men, particularly under

1149
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: the age of fifty. Charlemagne said he thought that that

1150
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: was an unfair assessment that some black folks in the

1151
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: United States are struggling more with the Democratic Party than

1152
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: with Kamala Harris. So I'd love to hear your take

1153
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: on the kind of latest hair on fire issue in

1154
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: Democratic circles.

1155
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, and that I would love to hear you on

1156
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 6: this also, Charlotte Mane, I mean, I think felt like

1157
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 6: the first what you said, I definitely agree with. I

1158
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 6: think this is part of a broader story's much more

1159
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 6: about black people's relationship with the Democratic Party than it

1160
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 6: is about individual black men and Kamala Harris. If even

1161
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 6: if you look at the numbers post twenty twelve, we've

1162
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 6: seen a consistent decline a black share of support for Democrats.

1163
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 6: Even if you look at twenty twenty two, where Democrats

1164
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 6: did really well, Black turnout was their weakest points, their

1165
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 6: widest coalition yet, and they've actually as the party has

1166
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 6: got more college educated than things like they take on

1167
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 6: different types of issues, and so I don't think it's

1168
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 6: any surprise that if you have politicians that increasingly come

1169
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 6: from a more college educated lens. If you take on issues,

1170
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 6: even if you're a way you're appealing to black folks's representation,

1171
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 6: which is often about elite black folks and elite spaces,

1172
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 6: that that pulls you further and further away from the

1173
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 6: type of black folks we're talking about who feel distant

1174
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 6: from the party. I remember we did an episode about

1175
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 6: this at my family Thanksgiving table last year for the podcast,

1176
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 6: and then I got pulled together a whole bunch of

1177
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 6: family and friends. We talked about the kind of shadow

1178
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 6: of Obama because I'm from Chicago, and how that led

1179
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 6: to this kind of feeling of difference with Democrats.

1180
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 4: And one thing that I think stuck.

1181
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 6: Out is like when you ask people why are you

1182
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 6: a Democrat in the first place, the answer that I

1183
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 6: got was much more about thevery fight for poor people

1184
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 6: than it was they fight for black people. And I

1185
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 6: think that's an important thing to remember for a lot

1186
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 6: of these people, is like the drop off is partially

1187
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 6: because the brand has gotten further away from we fight

1188
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 6: for poor people, and it overlaps that that includes a bunch.

1189
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 4: Of black men.

1190
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 6: Who did you know that includes a certain share of

1191
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 6: these folks. But I don't think I think to say

1192
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 6: that it's just sexism, or it's just a white husband,

1193
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 6: or you know, or it's just excuses, you know, to

1194
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 6: not have a black woman president, I really think is

1195
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 6: a type of tone. And I think, particularly I think

1196
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 6: about what Obama said, There's no way he would go

1197
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 6: to white communities and make that same type of lecturing army.

1198
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 4: He wouldn't go.

1199
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 6: He wouldn't go to his cousins in Kansas and say

1200
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 6: it's your fault. He would say, what are your concerns?

1201
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 6: And how is the party speaking to that? And I

1202
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 6: just think it's not that hard. That's what folks are

1203
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 6: looking for.

1204
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: Charlemagne, I'll call you Charlotte if you call me Katie,

1205
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: and you don't have to call me mss correct. But

1206
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 1: you did ask Vice President Harris on your show about

1207
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: what Barack Obama said in that more intimate setting when

1208
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: he seemed like he was scolding black men for not

1209
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: supporting her. Let's listen to that.

1210
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 5: President Obama was out there last week waving his finger

1211
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 5: at black men. When are Liz Cheney and Hillary Clinton

1212
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 5: going wave day finger at white women? Win of Bill

1213
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 5: Clinton and Joe Biden going wave day finger at white

1214
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 5: men because fifty two percent of white women voted for

1215
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 5: Trump in twenty sixteen, fifty five percent voted for Trump

1216
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty. They all voted against their own interests.

1217
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 5: When the finger waving gonna start at them?

1218
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 8: Well, thank you for highlighting that I do have the

1219
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 8: support of over two hundred Republicans who worked for various administrations,

1220
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 8: including everyone going back to Ronald Reagan to the Bushes,

1221
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 8: to John McCain and Romney, and including Liz Channing.

1222
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 7: I'm very proud to have her support.

1223
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 8: And I believe that they who many of them who

1224
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 8: may have voted for Trump before, are supporting me because

1225
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 8: they know the stakes are so high in terms of

1226
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 8: our very democracy and rule of law, and.

1227
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 5: So the finger wagon should start today Atamar.

1228
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 8: Well, I think what is happening is that we are

1229
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 8: all working on reminding people of what is at stake,

1230
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 8: and that is very important.

1231
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 2: So what did you think about the way she answered

1232
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 2: that question?

1233
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 5: I mean, she didn't answer my question directly, but you

1234
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 5: know what I think, what I think the VP likes

1235
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 5: to do is she likes she likes me just to

1236
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 5: say things because you know it'll be out in it.

1237
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 4: She knows somebody, she knows somebody, you'll hear it.

1238
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 5: So it's just like, you know, me saying it right

1239
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 5: there in that moment in front of her. Liz Chaney

1240
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 5: will hear it, Hillary will hear it. Bill Clinton here,

1241
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 5: Joe bidenl hear it. And it's just like, yeah, you

1242
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 5: know what we do need to be out here, you know,

1243
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 5: rallying people that look like us to go out there

1244
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 5: and support her.

1245
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 6: I think it's the difference between saying the words black

1246
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 6: people are not a monolith and truly believing right and

1247
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 6: truly operating from that front. I mean this pops up

1248
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 6: in other ways too. We should point out, like part

1249
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 6: of the black folks drifting to Trump, if you look

1250
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 6: at places like Florida are a bunch of first generation

1251
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 6: in African Americans who have different immigrant experience, different life

1252
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 6: experience than the voting block that's traditionally had a bunch

1253
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 6: of roots in America, and I think has a different

1254
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 6: lens on politics than you're more African American Southern core.

1255
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 6: So I'm like, if you actually think about the differences

1256
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 6: that are true among black people broadly, then of course

1257
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 6: there's drop off on some areas. Of course, some of

1258
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 6: these things interact differently, but I would only say that

1259
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 6: Obama has shown the consistent tone of lecturing over the years,

1260
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 6: like he did this while president, talking about your cousin

1261
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 6: Pooky and pull up your pants and things like that,

1262
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 6: and so I think, like it's just one of those

1263
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 6: things where you know, we had I talked to Governor

1264
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 6: Wes Moore about black man specifically, and what he says is,

1265
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 6: you need to acknowledge their frustration with the political system

1266
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 6: and the role that Democrats have played in that, and

1267
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 6: that's where you got to start.

1268
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 2: And then I'm just going to say, how can they

1269
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 2: win them back?

1270
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 4: And I think that's where you got to start from.

1271
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 6: I think it's a I think it's a lens on

1272
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 6: issues and that, but I also think it is a

1273
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 6: tone that acknowledges frustration with the political system and frustration

1274
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 6: with the Democratic Party, Like it is not a even

1275
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 6: if seventy eighty percent of black folks vote for Democrats,

1276
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 6: when you talk to them, they have a lot of

1277
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 6: problems with the Democratic Party. And so I think when

1278
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 6: folks act like black folks are just mindlessly hitting the

1279
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 6: blue button, that's when you don't see the type of

1280
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 6: nuances that can lead you to make those marginal improvements.

1281
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 5: You know, ms, I want to read the exact quote.

1282
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 5: You know, this is from President Obama's speech. It wasn't

1283
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 5: when he was talking in the more intimate setting. It

1284
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,439
Speaker 5: was when he was talking at the rally in Pennsylvania,

1285
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 5: and he said, and so sometimes the other excuse we

1286
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 5: hear when we're talking to folks as well, it ain't

1287
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 5: gonna make no difference. Well, no, you're right that we're

1288
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 5: not eliminating poverty. We're not gonna get rid of all

1289
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 5: problems with race. We're not gonna prevent every bad thing

1290
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 5: from happening in this country, whoever we elect president.

1291
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 4: That's not how things work.

1292
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 5: The question is that we have somebody there who sees us,

1293
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 5: who cares about us, who will work on our behalf

1294
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 5: and can make things a little bit better. And so

1295
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 5: there are a whole bunch of things that I did

1296
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 5: not get done when I was president. After age is

1297
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 5: I couldn't do it because it was blocked by Congress.

1298
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 5: Couldn't do it because sometimes the Supreme Court stepped in.

1299
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 5: Couldn't do it because I couldn't persuade enough folks to

1300
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 5: do it.

1301
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 4: This is how you get black men back.

1302
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:40,919
Speaker 5: This is how you get black people back, because there's

1303
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 5: a level of honesty in this state and an empathy

1304
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 5: to what voters are feeling that you're speaking directly too.

1305
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 4: You don't got to get.

1306
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 5: Up there, mister President Obama and tell me about all

1307
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 5: of this hope and change that we can believe in,

1308
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 5: and you know how you're gonna wave them long and

1309
01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 5: you know, change the conditions of the black community.

1310
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 4: No. I know you can't eliminate poverty.

1311
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 5: I know you're not gonna get rid of all the

1312
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 5: problems with race, but I also convinced me that you

1313
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:09,439
Speaker 5: care and you will work on my behalf to make

1314
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 5: things better. That should be a messaging at a Democratic party.

1315
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 6: And it can't come this late, to be honest, they

1316
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 6: have said, they have said they understood this, they were

1317
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 6: investing early. But the reality is come the mid term,

1318
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 6: the midterms the last four years. There have been signs

1319
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 6: about this with black folks for a while. And so

1320
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 6: the fact that I think this conversation has only recently

1321
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 6: developed is already emblematic of a problem because it could

1322
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 6: have been a thing that they invested in early, and

1323
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 6: I think to the point about the primary early, these

1324
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 6: are the type of things that the primary would do,

1325
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 6: is talk about how to have a conversation about how

1326
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 6: they talk to black men in the first place. In

1327
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 6: that interview with Harris last year, I asked her the

1328
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 6: party talks more about race and blackness than before, why

1329
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 6: isn't that leading the more black votes? And her answer,

1330
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 6: you know, was ask me after twenty twenty four, which

1331
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 6: I think is the same type of dismissiveness of the

1332
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 6: problem that we've kind of seen from them. And so

1333
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 6: twenty twenty four might end up being the wake up

1334
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 6: call on this front. But I don't think it's limited

1335
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 6: to black people. There's a Latino men problem, There's a

1336
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 6: young man there is also.

1337
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 2: A blue college edu.

1338
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 6: It is a it is a broader thing, and so I,

1339
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 6: you know, the specificness of black men somewhat feels like

1340
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,920
Speaker 6: an early attempt to blame a loss. In my opinion,

1341
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 6: if someone Harris supposed to lose first, the reason will

1342
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 6: not chiefly be black men, and so I don't I

1343
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 6: don't get why sometimes the conversation.

1344
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: Has felt like that before we go and you guys

1345
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 1: have been so generous with your time this podcast is

1346
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 1: going to drop when there's less than two weeks to

1347
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: go before the election, and I know that instead, you've

1348
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: been traveling like crazy, You've qualified for the Delta Diamond Medallion,

1349
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: You've been crisscrossing the country. I think Charlemagne and I

1350
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 1: would both like to hear what you're hearing as you

1351
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: travel all across America. What are some of the things

1352
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 1: that are really sticking out in your mind?

1353
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 6: I think the biggest thing is before the switch happened,

1354
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 6: so much of what we heard was an apathetic relationship

1355
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 6: to this presidential race and in a frankly downright hostile

1356
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 6: feeling of being forced to be choosed between those two candidates.

1357
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 6: And for a year or so, that was the overwhelming

1358
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 6: kind of malaise in the air, was why do I

1359
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 6: want to deal.

1360
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 4: With this election?

1361
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 6: And that was driven and I think for a lot

1362
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 6: of people we were talking to Democrats, they were saying, oh, well,

1363
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 6: you know, we have to deal with kind of getting

1364
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 6: people invested, but maybe weren't recognizing that they were part

1365
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 6: of that problem because of the candidates. Since the switch

1366
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 6: has happened, there has been a greater willingness to kind

1367
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 6: of like engage in the in the election and things

1368
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 6: like that. But I think we're still basically dealing with

1369
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 6: the landscape and when Trump is the main figure, partially

1370
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 6: Democrats own making and kind of messaging, but it feels

1371
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 6: like a referendum on him. And one thing that Republicans

1372
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 6: have done for four years ago to now is get

1373
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 6: their voters on the same page when it comes to

1374
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 6: things like early voting, when it comes to things like participating,

1375
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 6: and they use election denial in that message. So we're

1376
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 6: in Georgia last week and we are hearing people voting

1377
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 6: lined up to vote in the first day of early

1378
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 6: voting where they broke records, and they're saying the reason

1379
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 6: is because Dominion stole the.

1380
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 4: Machines last year.

1381
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 6: They're using the Donald Trump language of denial as a

1382
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 6: motivation to go vote, and so it has this kind

1383
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 6: of dual effect where I think it's created a more

1384
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 6: unified MAGA base.

1385
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 4: But we're still going to deal with the situation.

1386
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 6: Whereas some guy told me in Georgia, if Donald Trump

1387
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 6: doesn't win, I don't believe it. I think those questions

1388
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 6: are still hugely important from a democratic side. I think

1389
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 6: you have a good chance to do fine it's just

1390
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 6: with a little bit of a different base and coalition

1391
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 6: than they like to admit.

1392
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 4: The Obama days are done.

1393
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 6: Like, it's a little wider, it's a little more college educated,

1394
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 6: it's a little more affluent, it's a little in all

1395
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 6: of that type of stuff. I think it's just things

1396
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 6: that are uncomfortable for them to say out loud. But

1397
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 6: the people but who wanted to protect democracy and protect

1398
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 6: abortion rights are really real and you see that all

1399
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:08,480
Speaker 6: across folks, and so without those issues, I think that

1400
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 6: Donald I think Donald Trump is correctly named people's desire

1401
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 6: for change from this administration.

1402
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 4: But I think Donald Trump is a huge liability for.

1403
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 6: Being the messenger of that, and so it creates That's

1404
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 6: how you get to fifty to fifty. And I think

1405
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 6: that that's been really clear in the different parts of

1406
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 6: the country. If you go to Georgia and Arizona, we

1407
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 6: hear so much more about immigration, we hear so much

1408
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:33,920
Speaker 6: more about I think issues that I play well for

1409
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 6: Donald Trump. But when we're on Michigan and Wisconsin and

1410
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 6: hearing about abortion rights and protecting democracy, you see how

1411
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 6: there's still a path for Harris.

1412
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 4: And I just think that the party itself.

1413
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 6: Democrats specifically haven't had what we believe in adult combo

1414
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 6: since twenty nineteen, and so without that and the absence

1415
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 6: of that, what they believe in is just Donald Trump

1416
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 6: shouldn't be president again, and so like that's what this

1417
01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 6: is a come to be. But it's ground that they

1418
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 6: seeded because the other conversation, the uncomfortable conversation, was one

1419
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 6: they weren't willing to have last year, before.

1420
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 4: There was a VP Harris at the top of the ticket.

1421
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 5: I was saying that this election is going to boil

1422
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:16,839
Speaker 5: down to the criminals who are the Republicans, the cowards

1423
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 5: who are the Democrats because they don't fight hard enough

1424
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 5: on nothing in the couch, which is voting. And I think,

1425
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 5: you know, those people on the couch, they were totally

1426
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 5: checked out when she got to the top of the ticket.

1427
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:29,639
Speaker 5: Now they're sitting up on the couch a little bit like, oh,

1428
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:32,719
Speaker 5: let me see what's going on. They're listening and they're

1429
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 5: listening to, you know, hear things that you know they

1430
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 5: can resonate with. And it's really just something to the

1431
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 5: Democratic Party over the next couple of weeks. It's something

1432
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 5: to VP Kamala Harris to go out there and give

1433
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 5: them something, you know, to get up and go to

1434
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 5: that to that voting move for. You know, I think

1435
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:50,679
Speaker 5: that they I think Democrats they do a terrible job

1436
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 5: of talking about people they never truly talked to. And

1437
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 5: I think that they have a real disconnect with working

1438
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 5: class people in America, not just working class Black people,

1439
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 5: leader the working class people period. I think that there's

1440
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:08,679
Speaker 5: a level of eliticism that has happened in the Democratic Party.

1441
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 5: Even when they say things like the economy is great,

1442
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 5: look at the stock market.

1443
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:14,479
Speaker 4: The people I'm talking to where I'm.

1444
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:16,640
Speaker 5: From in rural Monks Corner, in the rural area in

1445
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 5: South Carolina, they don't know nothing about those stocks.

1446
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 4: They don't have no stocks. They they don't care about that.

1447
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 5: They want to know what the grocery prices, those rent

1448
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:25,800
Speaker 5: prices that they're talking about.

1449
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:27,960
Speaker 4: They're talking about the cost of whiting being too high.

1450
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:30,600
Speaker 5: And you know, Democrats got to find a way to

1451
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 5: get back into the trenches and start talking to people

1452
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 5: instead of talking about people. And when they get that

1453
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 5: connection again with the working class, I think they'll be

1454
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 5: in a much better place.

1455
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:41,640
Speaker 6: I think the only thing I would add to that

1456
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 6: is so much of that disconnect, I think has been

1457
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 6: driven by a bad assumption that the racial changes, the

1458
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 6: demographic had changes in the country will just inevitably lead

1459
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 6: to more Democratic votes. I think it's still it's still

1460
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 6: they're still breaking themselves from that demographic destiny belief. And

1461
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:02,640
Speaker 6: so more let's you know, does not mean inherently more Democrats,

1462
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 6: like that is a misunderstanding of the diversity of that community.

1463
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:09,640
Speaker 6: More black folks does not inherently mean for Democrats.

1464
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 4: That's not an understanding. That's I'm an Asian voter. We

1465
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 4: can keep going down the line.

1466
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 6: But I think the missing piece for people's understanding is

1467
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 6: really just an assumption that folks had one that Donald

1468
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 6: Trump would just be invalidated either by January sixth or

1469
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 6: the legal cases, or that they, you know, something would

1470
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 6: happen by himself. And then the second piece, I think

1471
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 6: is they still have to break themselves from the assumption

1472
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 6: that all these minority folks will inevitably moved in their direction.

1473
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 6: And so whatever the new demographic version of America is,

1474
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 6: there's no telling what that means politically, you know. And

1475
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 6: I think they are just getting to that understanding, and

1476
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 6: some of the shifts, particularly on a class front.

1477
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 4: We're talking about have forced that recognition.

1478
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 1: Astead Herndon and Charloteage the God. This was so fun.

1479
01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 1: Thank you both for spending this time with me. I

1480
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Thank you, Miss Katie, Katie Yeah, miss

1481
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 1: Katie's Miss Katie's fine.

1482
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 2: That's so southern and cute.

1483
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 6: Hey Bill, thank you for having it. Love the work,

1484
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:11,680
Speaker 6: the audience though, happy to be here.

1485
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:19,599
Speaker 4: Thank your good money.

1486
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Everyone.

1487
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: If you have a question for me, a subject you

1488
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:27,639
Speaker 1: want us to cover, or you want to share your

1489
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:31,400
Speaker 1: thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world reach out.

1490
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:34,320
Speaker 1: You can leave a short message at six oh nine

1491
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:37,760
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1492
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:39,520
Speaker 1: send me a DM on Instagram.

1493
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:41,120
Speaker 2: I would love to hear from you.

1494
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:45,759
Speaker 1: Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.

1495
01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:49,799
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1496
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:54,360
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1497
01:11:54,400 --> 01:12:00,000
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1498
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