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Speaker 1: Push it. I don't think whiteness is trying to take

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Speaker 1: our color. They're trying to take our culture. They're trying

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Speaker 1: to take you know, really the things that make us

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Speaker 1: unique and vibrant and flavorful. It's all of these things.

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Speaker 1: I'm Khalil Gibrad Muhammed and I'm Ben Austin. We're two

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Speaker 1: best friends, one black, one white. I'm a historian and

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Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. And this is some of my best

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Speaker 1: friends are some of my best friends are dot dot dot.

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Speaker 1: In this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the

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Speaker 1: absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. Don't Khalil,

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it is. It's election day. You know,

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Speaker 1: it is Armageddon Day. Armageddon Day. And I got a

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Speaker 1: question for you. Yeah, do you vote? Of course? I voted.

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Speaker 1: Not only did I vote, I voted early? No. No,

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Speaker 1: I mean do you do you just vote? In general? Like? Oh,

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Speaker 1: do I vote? I don't vote? What's going on here? Man?

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Speaker 1: Do you think I'm one of those people? I love

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Speaker 1: voting on election day. I love going in there and

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Speaker 1: seeing all the people volunteering. I love getting a sense

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Speaker 1: of what's going on, just like it's a pulse of

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Speaker 1: democracy in some way it is. Yeah, My wife was

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Speaker 1: an elected official as she ran in local school board election.

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Speaker 1: She won two out of three of them. And I

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Speaker 1: will admit, before voting for her for the first time,

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Speaker 1: which was about a decade ago, I didn't really care

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Speaker 1: about local elections. I mean I didn't pay attention. And

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Speaker 1: I think more than at any point in American history,

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Speaker 1: certainly in the twentieth century, the stakes of this country

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Speaker 1: hanging the balance and what's happen locally all over the place,

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Speaker 1: for local munist elections, for state elections, and so today's

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Speaker 1: a day to vote, folks. All of it matters. And

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Speaker 1: if you listen five years later, it's also going to

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Speaker 1: be a time to vote. So it's almost a reason.

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Speaker 1: That's right, man, where you just said it is exactly right.

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Speaker 1: And this has been accelerated in the Trump years. We

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Speaker 1: all have our eyes on national politics. We are no

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Speaker 1: longer thinking about what's going on locally, which gets us

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Speaker 1: to our guest today, Christopher Reevas is somebody who is

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Speaker 1: going to get us in some ways into Los Angeles politics, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because this guy it represents in a way the future

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Speaker 1: of the world. He is helping us to see the

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Speaker 1: fullness of our humanity and what's at stake. He is

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Speaker 1: an amazing author, actor, podcaster. He's got these two podcasts,

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Speaker 1: Brown Enough and Ruby Rosa. He's got a one man

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Speaker 1: show that he put on called The Real James Bond

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Speaker 1: was Dominican, the Dominicans, the Doctor, the Diplomat, the Jingalo,

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Speaker 1: the Alchemist, the last living Playboy. And he's also a

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Speaker 1: network sitcom actor. He's been on a show called Call

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Speaker 1: Me Cat, You Picked Me Over Max with his perfect hair,

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Speaker 1: chisel jaw and searing blue eyes. All Right, So he

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Speaker 1: also has this new book out called Brown Enough. True

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Speaker 1: Stories about love, violence, the student loan crisis, Hollywood, race, familia,

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Speaker 1: and making it in America. We devoured this book, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And part of what grabbed our attention immediately was that

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Speaker 1: he identifies Tanahassie Coats giving this talk at the Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles Public Library. Tanahassee had became famous for this article

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Speaker 1: about reparations in twenty fourteen, and then a couple of

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Speaker 1: years later wrote a book that became a bestseller, and

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Speaker 1: it was about the black white story of the horrible

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Speaker 1: shit that has happened to black people in this country.

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Speaker 1: And continue used to happen. That's exactly right. So Chris

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Speaker 1: gets up to the mic and he asked a question,

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Speaker 1: and this is a question black and white. That's all

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Speaker 1: I hear, black and white as a brown man, a Dominican, Colombian,

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Speaker 1: Afro Latino in this world. Where does that leave me

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Speaker 1: in the conversation? And Tanahassi answers, not in it? Oh staff,

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Speaker 1: you're not in it. He calls it my moment of

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Speaker 1: awakening that made me realize, oh shit, something's up here.

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Speaker 1: That was that was cold blooded. When I read that,

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Speaker 1: I was like, damn um. And I've interviewed Tahs in

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Speaker 1: the public, you know, in front of a big audience,

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Speaker 1: and he can be prickly about, you know, people saying here,

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Speaker 1: you are the super successful author, why didn't you tell

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Speaker 1: my story? Or why didn't you tell a story that

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Speaker 1: represents me? And he's just like, I mean, I've heard

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Speaker 1: him basically say, you know, write your own book, and

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what Chris does. He writes his own book.

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Speaker 1: He takes this moment as an occasion to say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I have power. I have agency over my

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Speaker 1: own voice. And while I didn't always think I did

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Speaker 1: that's his awakening the agency to tell his own story.

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Speaker 1: And we are grateful that he's done it, because as

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Speaker 1: much as I saw that moment, I was like, hmm,

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Speaker 1: and like, is he really kicking Tanahasi Coats in the

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Speaker 1: butt here and like making me think differently about it?

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Speaker 1: And in the end, you know, this is the most

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Speaker 1: the most powerful. In the end, he really does help

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Speaker 1: us understand how black and white are the pillars that

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Speaker 1: uphold the erasure of brownness. He was saying, listen, in

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Speaker 1: this country, the binary that we're stuck in is between

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Speaker 1: black and white. And he was saying, you got you

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Speaker 1: gotta like redefine that, you gotta change that story. It

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Speaker 1: was like challenge issued. All right, well, let's go to

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Speaker 1: our interview with Chris. Hey, Chris Rivas, thank you. We

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Speaker 1: are so excited to have you on our podcast. You

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Speaker 1: know this great book that you wrote, Brown Enough, Khalil

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Speaker 1: and I both dug it. We both read the whole

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Speaker 1: thing where I had to talk about it, talk to

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Speaker 1: you about the struggle you're going through of being brown

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Speaker 1: in the United States. Great, Yeah, let's do it. This

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Speaker 1: is also partly a story that grows out of your

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Speaker 1: own childhood your own socialization within and a Dominican community

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Speaker 1: in Queens, your own parents immigrant story, and trying to

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Speaker 1: make sense of the anti blackness that exists within that community.

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Speaker 1: And let's talk about this incredible place you come from,

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Speaker 1: but is also this very complicated experience, this personal journey

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Speaker 1: around race itself. It took what thirty four years to

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Speaker 1: discover that where I lived was the actual representation of

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Speaker 1: the world in my opinion. You know, I think we

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Speaker 1: know Queens is one of the most diverse places in

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Speaker 1: the world, and Jackson Heights, where my grandma live, is

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Speaker 1: literally I think we've done the numbers, the most diverse

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Speaker 1: place in the world. What a blessing that I had

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Speaker 1: no idea. I had no idea that in that place

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Speaker 1: was a pool of genius, a pool of brown and

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Speaker 1: black genius, a pool of like literal beauty. Because they

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Speaker 1: were never on the billboards, they were never on TV,

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Speaker 1: they were never on screens. I didn't see my Dominican father,

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Speaker 1: I didn't see my Colombian mother like I never saw

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Speaker 1: Jackson Heights in that way. I never saw Queens in

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Speaker 1: that way. I saw Beverly Hills in that way. I

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Speaker 1: saw so many things that were not me and my community.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be like the kids on TV. And

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Speaker 1: then my parents didn't want me to speak Spanish. I

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Speaker 1: know that I felt embarrassed by it, but I didn't

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Speaker 1: understand why I felt embarrassed that I didn't speak Spanish.

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Speaker 1: I didn't understand why my dad was fighting with people

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Speaker 1: and his family who called him, you know, a good ingle,

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Speaker 1: trying to be like the white people in order to

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Speaker 1: move ahead, in order to do the American dream and

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Speaker 1: everything that came with that. My mom and dad thinking

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Speaker 1: we can buy a house. That's what Americans, that's what

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Speaker 1: we do. That's what's going to get our kids this

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Speaker 1: next level of life. You know, maybe they'll go to college.

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Speaker 1: All of this, they stopped seeing as much of their family,

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Speaker 1: you know, certain parts of their family. I think the

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Speaker 1: quote in my book is that my dad has after

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Speaker 1: that moment, it's like they don't matter. They're not the

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Speaker 1: ones paying the bills, they're not the ones putting food

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Speaker 1: on your table. They want to call me white because

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Speaker 1: when we use the word white, really, what my dad's

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Speaker 1: cousin was saying is what are you trying to have power? Now?

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Speaker 1: You're trying to leave us behind and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be an actress since I was a kid, y'all, ever

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Speaker 1: since I saw Peter Pan on Broadway, you know, like

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Speaker 1: I was just like I was, I was invested in

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Speaker 1: telling stories in that way. And one of them I

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Speaker 1: love the most was James Bond. I mean, that's that's

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Speaker 1: me running around in my tidy whities with all my

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Speaker 1: little nerve guns strapped around me, like, pretending to be

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Speaker 1: on missions, pretending to be this white British dude. And

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Speaker 1: it was as simple as like, how would my life

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Speaker 1: have been different if I wasn't pretending to be some

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Speaker 1: white dude, but I was pretending to be my pops myself? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: khalil An, you know anyone else? Oh? All right, well

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Speaker 1: that's fascinating about this desire? Is that the guy you're

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Speaker 1: going after, So just unpack him a little bit. You know,

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Speaker 1: it really started. I created this play and it's now

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Speaker 1: a podcast about this Dominican man, James Bam was based on.

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Speaker 1: You gotta tell us his name because it's an awesome name.

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Speaker 1: Portfido Rubrosa what we call him, got it? I mean,

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Speaker 1: let's just assume our listeners don't know him anymore than

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Speaker 1: you did, and I'll admit the first time I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: about it. So tell us the interesting, the most interesting

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Speaker 1: man in the world's story. Yeah, So Portia is incredible,

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Speaker 1: truly the most interesting man in the world. He was

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Speaker 1: twice the richest man in the world. Wow. He was

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Speaker 1: a diplomat for the dr He lived in Hitler's Germany.

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Speaker 1: He lived in Fidel's Cuba. He ran guns for the

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Speaker 1: New York City mob into Cuba. He was best friends

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Speaker 1: with Sinatra, Kennedy, the rat Pack, you name it. Was

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Speaker 1: he a playboy? Yes, they say, the greatest living playboy

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Speaker 1: of all time. I mean slept with every major princess,

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Speaker 1: Harris and waitress of the forties and fifties. So this guy,

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Speaker 1: this Dominican man, is this international playboy and super cool.

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Speaker 1: And he befriends Ian Fleming, who writes the James Bond

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Speaker 1: novels which become the movies. And Ian Fleming is like,

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Speaker 1: this is my guy. Ruby is who I'm going to

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Speaker 1: base this character on. You discover that James Bond is

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Speaker 1: based on this Dominican dude, and you just feel all

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Speaker 1: kinds of pride. Right when I discovered Portfridio Ruby Rossa

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Speaker 1: and that this man was Dominican. I went straight to

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Speaker 1: Pops and I said, Yo, you know about this dude?

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Speaker 1: He said yeah, and I said, Yo, he's epic. Why

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Speaker 1: don't you tell me about him? And he said I

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Speaker 1: didn't think it mattered? And I was like, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter matter. All I wanted in my life were heroes,

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Speaker 1: Like why doesn't it matter? This is an epic person

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Speaker 1: everyone should know about, not just Dominican. And then this

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Speaker 1: makes me wonder, my grandma has property out there. Why

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Speaker 1: don't you visit? Why haven't you been back in thirty years?

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Speaker 1: Like I don't want to talk about it, you know,

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Speaker 1: all of this stuff. I go to my mom, Yo, Mama,

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Speaker 1: how come you never took me to Columbia. Well, we

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Speaker 1: was busy here. We were here trying to give you

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Speaker 1: this life. Look at your life now. Yeah, we call

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Speaker 1: that striving strive me. That's that's the immigrant driver's story, right,

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Speaker 1: and the things we lose in that striving. They had

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Speaker 1: their heads down, they were focused. Here's a question I

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Speaker 1: have for you, Chris, because I was I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: a lot about you know, I like Khalil. This is

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Speaker 1: the first I'm hearing about him. And I'm also thinking

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Speaker 1: about this moment for you where you discover this person

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Speaker 1: who you would you literally embody on stage. And there's

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Speaker 1: also seems to me, and I'm asking this rather than

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Speaker 1: saying it, there seems to be something a little tragic

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Speaker 1: about him too, in his own sense of identity and

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Speaker 1: you know, racial identity. Am I right about that? You're

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent right? I mean he in the forties

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Speaker 1: and fifties was whitening his skin and got a nose job,

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Speaker 1: and so then talk about how this is the guy

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Speaker 1: that is also like you're coming out guy, you know,

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Speaker 1: like this is the weird moment. Do you sort of

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Speaker 1: find affinity to him because he doesn't just capture pride,

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Speaker 1: but you're all of your own confusion as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's why I call him a warning sign. You know,

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Speaker 1: I saw someone so desperate to be seen by whiteness,

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Speaker 1: so desperate to be seen. He also tried to be

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Speaker 1: an actor in Hollywood. He was going to do a

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Speaker 1: movie with Jaskobor. He was denied by the US Immigration Service,

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Speaker 1: like last minute, they were all said. He was getting

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Speaker 1: acting classes from Humphrey Bogart. Humphrey Bogar, y'all like that's

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Speaker 1: me calling Daniel de Lewis and being like yode y'all

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Speaker 1: get out. He was so desperate to be accepted by whiteness,

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Speaker 1: not by his dominicanness right, not by where he came from,

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Speaker 1: by the things he wanted to be. He was never satisfied.

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Speaker 1: You repeat some of these mistakes, I mean, you you,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like crazy and the brown man, and

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Speaker 1: me was like, oh, is this why my manager told

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Speaker 1: me to get a nose job? And is this why

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Speaker 1: I did it? Oh? Is this why my manager told

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Speaker 1: me to cut my hair? Yeah? You do get on

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Speaker 1: a sitcom, like a network sitcom after you get this

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Speaker 1: nose job? Right? I do? Yeah? I mean after I

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Speaker 1: got the nose job, I started booking work left and right.

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Speaker 1: And I have to wonder, am I a better actor?

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Speaker 1: Or is it because I look more? I look nicer,

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Speaker 1: I look more approachable, you know, I look Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: fit the standard, I fit the mold. The more you talk,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the more remarkable it is to really hear

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Speaker 1: in his life this story of cultural appropriation. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: make any sense that most people, and maybe it's not

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Speaker 1: most people, maybe it's just me and have been in me.

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Speaker 1: But like that, I think certainly in my own immediate circle.

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Speaker 1: Most of us haven't heard of this guy, and so

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Speaker 1: cultural appropriation is as much about the erasure of people

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Speaker 1: who are the actual doers of our society. Right Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the beautifully said, I mean that's that was another big

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Speaker 1: tipping point for me. It was like, oh, whiteness is

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Speaker 1: trying to take things from me, Christopher Reevas trying to

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Speaker 1: take my nose, my hair, my curls, literally, you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to take queens from me. But also what heroes

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Speaker 1: has it taken from me? What warnings has it taken

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Speaker 1: from me? Who else is out there that I don't

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Speaker 1: know about? I want to know about the other amazing

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Speaker 1: heroes we have brown heroes black Like, who else is

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Speaker 1: out there that the narrative of whiteness controls, either takes

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Speaker 1: or says, I'll let you have this one. I'll let

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Speaker 1: you learn about this one, you know, which is so

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Speaker 1: powerful in a time right now where we're banning books again,

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Speaker 1: we're banning books in twenty twenty two. Humans should know

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Speaker 1: about this man. Anyone who's been twice the richest person

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Speaker 1: in the world. I feel like that's pretty cool, you know,

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Speaker 1: like that's accomplishing something regardless of how you got there.

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Speaker 1: And so one of the things about Ruby's life that

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Speaker 1: really stuck out to me, on top of all this

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Speaker 1: sort of epicness and sadness and wildness, was like Homeboy

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Speaker 1: was with a lot of white women, and I got

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Speaker 1: a lie and something clicked to me, you know, like

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Speaker 1: I was dating a white woman. And so I looked

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Speaker 1: at this sort of you know, white woman that I

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Speaker 1: was literally sleeping next to, and I looked at my

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Speaker 1: history of all the women I dated, and I said,

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Speaker 1: I need to do some work around this, and so

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Speaker 1: we broke up. You know, I didn't exactly say why

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Speaker 1: didn't you know, I didn't be like I'm having a

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Speaker 1: racial awakening, like I gotta go, I can't do. It

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Speaker 1: was just a real life It was a real life

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Speaker 1: It's not you, it's me, which is true. And then

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Speaker 1: I went in search of my desires. I went in

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Speaker 1: search of like, Okay, every movie I've ever seen as

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Speaker 1: a kid shows me some brown or black dude being

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Speaker 1: saved by some white women. Right. Why have I thought

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Speaker 1: that the hand I hold determines my worth more than

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Speaker 1: my own hand. I've really started figuring out what am

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Speaker 1: I attracted to and why And because I like to

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Speaker 1: do things in a public nature or I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I like to do them. I think it's just

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Speaker 1: how I But you are a professional actor, come like,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, you do like to doing things that the

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Speaker 1: public matter. I think it's just how I meet myself.

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Speaker 1: You know, if I write it down, it's like it's

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Speaker 1: holding me accountable. And so I wrote this piece in

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Speaker 1: The Times that I titled please Don't Hate Me for

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Speaker 1: dating white women. They called it I broke up with

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Speaker 1: my girlfriend because she was white. It went insane, It

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Speaker 1: got translated into all these different languages, and it really

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Speaker 1: opened the door to me asking bigger questions about how

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Speaker 1: I moved through the world. Like that was a big

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Speaker 1: in for me. Looking at dating and intimacy in that

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Speaker 1: way in relationships was a big into like how am

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Speaker 1: I moving through the world as a body of culture?

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Speaker 1: And what power am I literally giving to to whiteness.

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Speaker 1: So listen, you know this is a black guy and

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Speaker 1: a white guy show, right, So here we are talking

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Speaker 1: about our interracial friendship. We're best friends. You heard about

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Speaker 1: the show, and we are the embodiment of literally the

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Speaker 1: black white binary that troubles this story that you tell

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Speaker 1: and you enter into this conversation in power by saying like, yo,

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Speaker 1: enough enough already. So do we have this wrong? Are

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Speaker 1: we contributing to the problem, Chris, help help us figure

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Speaker 1: out how to be better. You are not causing or

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Speaker 1: keeping the problem going. That is the world. It is

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Speaker 1: a binary world. It is a white black world. Before

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Speaker 1: you even came into existence, before you were formed, like,

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Speaker 1: it has been a white black world. It has been

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Speaker 1: his her world. We are just now starting to really

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Speaker 1: crack open the doors. And this goes way beyond race

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Speaker 1: of what it means to embrace the middle space. We're

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Speaker 1: making this space more full right now. So it's literally happening.

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Speaker 1: It's more conversations like this. That's when he needs to

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Speaker 1: have it. Yeah, you're talking about this middle space. But

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Speaker 1: you write in the book, you know what is brownness

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Speaker 1: the vague but large gap in the middle where things

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Speaker 1: are forgotten, don't exist, don't matter, or don't belong. What

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Speaker 1: is brownness a concept everything between black and white, the

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Speaker 1: global majority and both a large and majority. You're not

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Speaker 1: talking about a small number of people, We're talking about

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Speaker 1: a huge number. You're in La where over fifty percent

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Speaker 1: of the people are Latino explain that, like, how could

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Speaker 1: such a large group be left out of the conversation.

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Speaker 1: I do think there is more brownness in the world

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Speaker 1: than anything else. Yeah, Yeah, this world has a lot

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Speaker 1: of brown people in it. And I'm not just talking

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Speaker 1: about the Enos. More ethnicities and heritages and cultures and

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Speaker 1: flavors than I can even think off off the top

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Speaker 1: of my head. Yeah, I don't know how we all

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Speaker 1: get left out. How it happened. I mean, yes, it's systemic,

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Speaker 1: and it happened, and we're just we're here now. And

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Speaker 1: so what I can speak to is maybe hopefully towards

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Speaker 1: the future and be like, all right, so how do

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Speaker 1: we have more inclusive conversations, dialogues, awarenesses. Yeah. I want

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Speaker 1: to stay with this for just a second longer, because

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Speaker 1: I think it's really important, like both to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: brownness is also about a physical appearance and also a

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Speaker 1: kind of political project. And I want to share very

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Speaker 1: quickly two examples from my own children. My wife grew

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Speaker 1: up herself a little bit anxious about her blackness, and

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Speaker 1: partly because she spoke in such a way that other

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Speaker 1: black kids teased her. You know, you're trying to be white,

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Speaker 1: and so at some point she kind of defined herself

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Speaker 1: as Neapolitan. And that matters because when we were raising

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Speaker 1: our fine bndess lady, it is kind of crazy, right,

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Speaker 1: but okay. Nevertheless, so when it was time to be

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Speaker 1: parents our firstborn son, named debraun Stephanie, like, her instinct

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Speaker 1: was to like acknowledge his brownness because he's, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's like Beyonce colored right like that, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of a little shade darker than beige. And I was like, no,

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Speaker 1: he's black. And so this little like debate between us

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Speaker 1: manifest later on when we left this like super white

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Speaker 1: college town in Bloomington, Indiana, and we went to visit

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Speaker 1: my mother who lived on the South side of Chicago

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Speaker 1: where I grew up. And we were walking on Michigan

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Speaker 1: Avenue in downtown Chicago on the Magnificent Mile, and we

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Speaker 1: were surrounded by the sights and sounds of the city.

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Speaker 1: Everybody was there, and our son literally is like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, there really are black people. And this is insane, right, Chris,

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Speaker 1: because here he like, there's the dude's lame is Jabron Muhammad,

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Speaker 1: Like if nothing else, he's like some some like black

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Speaker 1: dude in the making right, Like, you know, he can't.

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Speaker 1: He's nothing but brown or black or something. But he's

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Speaker 1: our child, and somehow we had missed the fact that

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Speaker 1: in his own socialization he was seeing his face as brown,

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Speaker 1: but the political stakes of him being black weren't clear

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Speaker 1: to him yet. And I think that's kind of what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, Like there are the whole world is

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Speaker 1: made up of brown people more than any other, like

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00:20:34,956 --> 00:20:39,916
Speaker 1: physical reality, and yet the stakes of our politics internationally

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Speaker 1: are like choosing white or black. Yeah, we've choosing is

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Speaker 1: a good word. I mean, we could expand all the

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Speaker 1: whole our own choice. Yeah, man, that's what we're here,

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Speaker 1: because we are here to you want us to make

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Speaker 1: a choice. Let's talk about this. Let's talk about brownness

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Speaker 1: as a different choice, assuming you have the choice to

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Speaker 1: make right. We talk about privilege a lot, and that's

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Speaker 1: one of the great definitions, is the ability to have choice.

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Speaker 1: I don't think whiteness is trying to take our color.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to take our culture. They're trying to take

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Speaker 1: you know, really the things that make us unique and

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Speaker 1: vibrant and flavorful and colorful, you know, like it's all

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Speaker 1: of these things. And when you say, take what do

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Speaker 1: you mean? Because when I think of assimilation and I

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Speaker 1: think of pretending, and I think of choices like what's

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00:21:28,836 --> 00:21:32,076
Speaker 1: going to allow me to survive literally physically, what's going

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00:21:32,116 --> 00:21:36,356
Speaker 1: to allow me to thrive possibly move up a social

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00:21:36,516 --> 00:21:41,716
Speaker 1: financial ladder, and the dangers that come with pretending an assimilation.

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Speaker 1: I think it's trying to take bodies of culture's culture

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Speaker 1: and make it one way, you know, make it our way,

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Speaker 1: make it the white way, make it the acceptable way.

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Speaker 1: And so this idea of choice, when do we as

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Speaker 1: bodies of culture wake up to the choices we've been making?

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Speaker 1: You know, that's a whole version of racial awakening is

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Speaker 1: have I been making my own choices? Or have I

404
00:22:04,956 --> 00:22:10,476
Speaker 1: been brainwashed hypnotized into think I'm making my own choices?

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Speaker 1: But really I'm just trying to survive. All Right, we

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Speaker 1: are here with Chris Revas. We've been talking about brownness.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and we come back.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about Los Angeles, where Chris lives.

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Speaker 1: Now we're going to talk about a local scandal about racism,

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Speaker 1: this tape that was released and how it reflects on

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Speaker 1: the national stage and national politics. Hey, we're back with

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Speaker 1: Chris Revas and some of my best friends are Chris.

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Speaker 1: You know here we are mid term elections. Politics is

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Speaker 1: royaling the country and you live in Los Angeles and

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Speaker 1: you know so in October the scandal happened. This tape

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Speaker 1: was released, and we want to just sort of unpack

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Speaker 1: it a little bit because it seems so relevant to

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Speaker 1: your work and to this conversation. Three Latino City Council

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Speaker 1: members in Los Angeles are caught on tape, including the

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Speaker 1: council president, Nori Martinez, and also a Latino labor leader.

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Speaker 1: So there are four people talking and this conversation actually

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Speaker 1: happens in twenty twenty one, but the tape is just

423
00:23:24,316 --> 00:23:27,516
Speaker 1: released and then run by the La Times this year.

424
00:23:28,036 --> 00:23:30,516
Speaker 1: They're talking all kinds of anti black stuff and both

425
00:23:30,556 --> 00:23:34,596
Speaker 1: like actual black people, like African Americans, but also people

426
00:23:34,596 --> 00:23:37,236
Speaker 1: of darker skin. So yeah, let's let's let's listen to

427
00:23:37,276 --> 00:23:39,196
Speaker 1: a clip because this is this is it's just a

428
00:23:39,236 --> 00:23:42,396
Speaker 1: really strong language here and our listeners should here. It's

429
00:23:42,396 --> 00:23:46,276
Speaker 1: a black and brown on this floe, and the white

430
00:23:46,276 --> 00:23:50,716
Speaker 1: guy with a little black kid was risky, hate the

431
00:23:50,916 --> 00:23:57,116
Speaker 1: kids bousing off the There's nothing you can do to

432
00:23:57,196 --> 00:24:02,676
Speaker 1: control him. They call someone's kid a black kid, a monkey,

433
00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:06,876
Speaker 1: thank you. I wasn't going to even try it. Uh.

434
00:24:07,036 --> 00:24:09,836
Speaker 1: They talk about working class immigrants from Wahika who live

435
00:24:09,916 --> 00:24:15,076
Speaker 1: in Korea Town as little short, dark people, dirty dirty. Yeah.

436
00:24:15,116 --> 00:24:18,916
Speaker 1: And then even like the progressive da this guy George cascoone,

437
00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:21,316
Speaker 1: you know, they sort of dismiss him as somebody he's

438
00:24:21,356 --> 00:24:23,796
Speaker 1: with the blacks. So yeah, man, I want to throw

439
00:24:23,796 --> 00:24:26,516
Speaker 1: it back on you, like explain like was it did

440
00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:28,956
Speaker 1: it surprise you? Why didn't it, you know, tell us

441
00:24:28,956 --> 00:24:31,636
Speaker 1: about it. My first thought is, you know, thank god,

442
00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:35,596
Speaker 1: thank god that's tape was released, right, Like, It's not like,

443
00:24:35,716 --> 00:24:38,276
Speaker 1: how dare they? It's like, of course they, you know,

444
00:24:38,316 --> 00:24:43,916
Speaker 1: the Latina Latin, Latin XE, whatever people's preferred, you know,

445
00:24:43,956 --> 00:24:50,076
Speaker 1: identity pronoun is Latinos have so much racism and colonization

446
00:24:50,316 --> 00:24:55,596
Speaker 1: and white supremacy. Deep deep, deep, deep, deep, deep deeply

447
00:24:55,716 --> 00:24:59,996
Speaker 1: braided into that it didn't surprise me because white supremacy

448
00:25:00,076 --> 00:25:02,596
Speaker 1: is not an American thing. It is a global thing.

449
00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:05,516
Speaker 1: But Latini that is one of the bigger sufferers of it,

450
00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:08,836
Speaker 1: and what does that mean. I'll started my own story

451
00:25:09,116 --> 00:25:12,516
Speaker 1: before I speak about someone else's Dominicans there's people on

452
00:25:12,556 --> 00:25:15,876
Speaker 1: the same land, the same island, similar dark skin. Right.

453
00:25:15,916 --> 00:25:18,716
Speaker 1: My grandma's black, y'all, but she ain't black. God forbid

454
00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:22,156
Speaker 1: you call her black, but she's black. Right, No, they're black.

455
00:25:22,476 --> 00:25:25,476
Speaker 1: I'm Dominican, right, that's in my blood. And they're they're

456
00:25:25,556 --> 00:25:27,956
Speaker 1: being that those Haitians is when you say they are

457
00:25:28,076 --> 00:25:30,836
Speaker 1: they or anyone black black people are black, I'm Dominican,

458
00:25:30,996 --> 00:25:32,636
Speaker 1: you know. And so you have to do hero who

459
00:25:33,276 --> 00:25:37,356
Speaker 1: is Haitian, has Haitian ancestry, baby powdering his face, you know,

460
00:25:37,396 --> 00:25:41,076
Speaker 1: identifying with himself with whiteness, killing the black people that

461
00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:43,356
Speaker 1: he's associated with. So I'm just gonna speak to my

462
00:25:43,356 --> 00:25:45,996
Speaker 1: own blood. Yeah, man, I hadn't. I hadn't even thought

463
00:25:45,996 --> 00:25:50,676
Speaker 1: about your hero and his Haitian background. Yeah. So's he's

464
00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:54,876
Speaker 1: the president of the Dominican Republic for like thirty one years,

465
00:25:54,876 --> 00:25:59,476
Speaker 1: from like nineteen thirty to nineteen sixty one, and massacres

466
00:25:59,476 --> 00:26:04,596
Speaker 1: something like an estimated twelve to thirty thousand Haitians under

467
00:26:04,676 --> 00:26:08,356
Speaker 1: his rule. It's just it's just unbelievable. So that's your

468
00:26:08,396 --> 00:26:12,196
Speaker 1: Dominican side. What about your Colombian side? Colombians have one

469
00:26:12,196 --> 00:26:14,516
Speaker 1: of the largest slave trades in the world that don't

470
00:26:14,516 --> 00:26:17,756
Speaker 1: come up a lot, like a lot came to America,

471
00:26:17,836 --> 00:26:21,556
Speaker 1: a lot went to Colombia, and you know, and so

472
00:26:21,676 --> 00:26:25,076
Speaker 1: you go to places like even now at Adina, Mexico,

473
00:26:25,196 --> 00:26:28,556
Speaker 1: Costa Rica. Who's on the hats It's white people. You know,

474
00:26:28,556 --> 00:26:31,356
Speaker 1: it's white it's white lavinos, but it's white people, like

475
00:26:31,396 --> 00:26:34,196
Speaker 1: it's white people selling you products. It's white people on

476
00:26:34,236 --> 00:26:37,396
Speaker 1: the shows. It's white people on the del novelas's white

477
00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:39,876
Speaker 1: people on the news. I just did an event for

478
00:26:40,076 --> 00:26:43,596
Speaker 1: you know, NBC Telemundo and a woman genuinely asked me,

479
00:26:43,636 --> 00:26:45,316
Speaker 1: how can we how can we show it better for

480
00:26:45,316 --> 00:26:47,156
Speaker 1: our community? And I said, yo, you know, you don't

481
00:26:47,156 --> 00:26:49,396
Speaker 1: have one alf for Latino on your staff. And where

482
00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:52,556
Speaker 1: was their response? You know, I don't. I mean, it's

483
00:26:52,596 --> 00:26:56,356
Speaker 1: just nothing like I was like I asked it. The

484
00:26:56,396 --> 00:27:02,316
Speaker 1: guy who hired me was like, you're talking about colorism

485
00:27:02,396 --> 00:27:05,156
Speaker 1: right like you're you're talking about it deeply, deeply rooted

486
00:27:05,196 --> 00:27:07,956
Speaker 1: and lots of Latino cultures. And that's what you feel

487
00:27:08,076 --> 00:27:09,756
Speaker 1: was sort of at the root of going on in

488
00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:13,116
Speaker 1: this conversation that was outed between these city councils. Ye,

489
00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:15,076
Speaker 1: that's what was happening in la and none of them

490
00:27:15,116 --> 00:27:17,556
Speaker 1: you deserve to sort of be in places of power.

491
00:27:18,276 --> 00:27:20,796
Speaker 1: But also what they're associated with power is their whiteness

492
00:27:20,876 --> 00:27:24,476
Speaker 1: or their non dirtiness, you know, or they're closer to whiteness,

493
00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:27,516
Speaker 1: so they're better. And no, they don't deserve to be

494
00:27:27,516 --> 00:27:29,596
Speaker 1: in places of power. But you know, thank God that

495
00:27:30,196 --> 00:27:32,476
Speaker 1: we know how these people are moving through the world

496
00:27:32,516 --> 00:27:35,476
Speaker 1: and thinking, this is why you're thankful this came Yeah,

497
00:27:35,516 --> 00:27:37,116
Speaker 1: that's what you mean. Yeah, that's why I'm thankful this

498
00:27:37,236 --> 00:27:40,276
Speaker 1: came out so we can have these conversations and hold

499
00:27:40,316 --> 00:27:43,076
Speaker 1: these people accountable. But I care less about holding them

500
00:27:43,076 --> 00:27:45,356
Speaker 1: accountable and more about people listening to it and holding

501
00:27:45,396 --> 00:27:48,916
Speaker 1: themselves accountable, asking do I think this, How have I

502
00:27:49,076 --> 00:27:53,076
Speaker 1: participated in this? How am I participating daily in white

503
00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:55,876
Speaker 1: supremacy and in anti blackness because we all have a

504
00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:57,636
Speaker 1: hand in it. Yeah, that's one of the things I think.

505
00:27:57,636 --> 00:27:59,316
Speaker 1: I mean. To your credit in the book is such

506
00:27:59,316 --> 00:28:04,036
Speaker 1: a powerful personal story about your own journey, because you

507
00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:08,196
Speaker 1: don't pull any punches in terms of how you yourself

508
00:28:08,236 --> 00:28:12,716
Speaker 1: have come to see your own grandmother's scolding you for

509
00:28:12,836 --> 00:28:17,436
Speaker 1: bringing home a black girlfriend at some point and recognizing

510
00:28:17,836 --> 00:28:21,596
Speaker 1: the obvious and subtle ways that all around you people

511
00:28:21,636 --> 00:28:24,796
Speaker 1: were saying, get closer to whiteness, Get closer to whiteness,

512
00:28:24,276 --> 00:28:28,356
Speaker 1: that's where power rests. When I heard about this story

513
00:28:28,396 --> 00:28:30,836
Speaker 1: of a Latino council members and the labor leader in

514
00:28:31,196 --> 00:28:33,676
Speaker 1: LA and I even brought it up in class, you know,

515
00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,316
Speaker 1: teaching this semester in a class called race and Racism

516
00:28:36,516 --> 00:28:39,396
Speaker 1: and the United States as a Global Power. I was

517
00:28:39,476 --> 00:28:45,156
Speaker 1: also hoping my students would appreciate that honorary whiteness is

518
00:28:45,396 --> 00:28:49,596
Speaker 1: driving our electoral politics. What do you mean, Yeah, honorary

519
00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:53,236
Speaker 1: whiteness meaning people who are not European descendant, but who

520
00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:57,556
Speaker 1: either have the category bestowed upon them. But in this

521
00:28:57,716 --> 00:29:01,916
Speaker 1: moment of our midterm elections, partly what we're seeing is

522
00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:06,356
Speaker 1: that this large Latino population, which is the largest at

523
00:29:06,436 --> 00:29:10,196
Speaker 1: least by census demographic of non white people in America

524
00:29:10,236 --> 00:29:13,276
Speaker 1: and will be the majority population, and something like a

525
00:29:13,316 --> 00:29:17,436
Speaker 1: generation is also at war in a sense with itself

526
00:29:17,516 --> 00:29:20,076
Speaker 1: over whether it's going to choose to follow the path

527
00:29:20,116 --> 00:29:22,956
Speaker 1: to power laid by white people or it's going to

528
00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:25,636
Speaker 1: come up with something different. Do I have that right

529
00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:27,396
Speaker 1: or do you have a different take on it? Because

530
00:29:27,436 --> 00:29:31,276
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in these ideological and political divisions within

531
00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:34,276
Speaker 1: Latino communities. Your parents are in Miami, it's Cuba an

532
00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:37,156
Speaker 1: American based. I mean, it's like, this is some real

533
00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:40,756
Speaker 1: stuff we're wrestling with, Chris politically. I mean the words

534
00:29:40,756 --> 00:29:43,796
Speaker 1: you said that I really love is the war with ourselves.

535
00:29:44,436 --> 00:29:50,996
Speaker 1: There is some serious, serious awakening and radical honesty and

536
00:29:51,076 --> 00:29:54,156
Speaker 1: transparency that needs to take place. But inside of the

537
00:29:54,996 --> 00:29:57,756
Speaker 1: Latino community. And I want to share something that I

538
00:29:58,356 --> 00:30:00,796
Speaker 1: had just learned this recently. So for the Brown Enough podcast,

539
00:30:00,876 --> 00:30:04,356
Speaker 1: we recently interviewed doctor Saudi Garcia. She said something I'd

540
00:30:04,396 --> 00:30:08,836
Speaker 1: never heard before. She said, if you Latina xe whatever,

541
00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:12,676
Speaker 1: you know, if we use the word Latin before anything,

542
00:30:13,156 --> 00:30:17,716
Speaker 1: we are identifying with whiteness. We are all Afro Caribbean

543
00:30:17,756 --> 00:30:19,996
Speaker 1: or Afro Latino, like we need to identify with the

544
00:30:20,036 --> 00:30:23,196
Speaker 1: other half before we identify with the whiteness. We are

545
00:30:23,236 --> 00:30:26,836
Speaker 1: indigenous beings of the land. And then all of this

546
00:30:27,036 --> 00:30:29,356
Speaker 1: sort of colonization in Spain and this and this other

547
00:30:29,396 --> 00:30:33,236
Speaker 1: things happen, you know, that sort of separated us in slavery, right,

548
00:30:33,316 --> 00:30:35,996
Speaker 1: bringing you know, slaves in and adding all this to

549
00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:40,476
Speaker 1: the mix. Every time we put in Latin anything, regardless

550
00:30:40,516 --> 00:30:42,236
Speaker 1: of what you put on the end of that you

551
00:30:42,236 --> 00:30:45,036
Speaker 1: are identifying with that whiteness in you, adding more to

552
00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:47,036
Speaker 1: that internal struggle that I don't think people even know

553
00:30:47,156 --> 00:30:51,036
Speaker 1: they're fighting. They're trapped inside of you know. I do.

554
00:30:51,076 --> 00:30:53,116
Speaker 1: I quote it because it's it holds up. We've all

555
00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:56,476
Speaker 1: seen the matrix, like it's hard to wake up. You

556
00:30:56,516 --> 00:30:59,636
Speaker 1: mean the movie star in keantle Reaves and Larry Fishburn

557
00:30:59,676 --> 00:31:02,876
Speaker 1: who went to your high school, right Talented unlimited, right

558
00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:05,556
Speaker 1: your community. It's hard to wake up, y'all, It's hard

559
00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:07,916
Speaker 1: to wake up. And Chris, this is amazing. I'm listening

560
00:31:07,916 --> 00:31:09,716
Speaker 1: to you and thinking about a sort of term monology.

561
00:31:10,116 --> 00:31:13,196
Speaker 1: And it also, like in electoral politics, it also cuts

562
00:31:13,196 --> 00:31:15,476
Speaker 1: the other way, like Khalil asked you about your your

563
00:31:15,476 --> 00:31:19,276
Speaker 1: parents who moved from Queens to Miami, and you know,

564
00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:22,076
Speaker 1: a lot of us think sort of like Latino or

565
00:31:22,156 --> 00:31:25,436
Speaker 1: Latin X, like as a monolith like here at least

566
00:31:25,436 --> 00:31:27,956
Speaker 1: this group of people. And part of this conversation is

567
00:31:27,956 --> 00:31:31,036
Speaker 1: we're talking about within it it also being so varied

568
00:31:31,276 --> 00:31:33,756
Speaker 1: and so different. And then you're also sort of spinning

569
00:31:33,756 --> 00:31:36,996
Speaker 1: it another way and saying like and the term is

570
00:31:37,036 --> 00:31:39,556
Speaker 1: also sort of a kind of forgetting but yeah, I

571
00:31:39,556 --> 00:31:40,916
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, can you talk a little bit

572
00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:43,516
Speaker 1: about like Khalil sort of talking about the differences within

573
00:31:43,556 --> 00:31:46,796
Speaker 1: it and even like an electoral way like your parents

574
00:31:46,796 --> 00:31:50,636
Speaker 1: are in this now sort of Cuban Republican stronghold of

575
00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:54,916
Speaker 1: Latino politics. In Miami, we got Democrats and Republicans, okay,

576
00:31:55,796 --> 00:32:00,116
Speaker 1: and for a long time Republicans have really been power.

577
00:32:00,556 --> 00:32:02,716
Speaker 1: We can call it power, and then we can call everything,

578
00:32:02,916 --> 00:32:06,476
Speaker 1: you know, democrat everything else. And you take a place

579
00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:10,436
Speaker 1: like Miami, it's little Cuba. They're the ones in power there.

580
00:32:10,876 --> 00:32:14,236
Speaker 1: They run a show, and so they are Republican because

581
00:32:14,236 --> 00:32:16,116
Speaker 1: they are white. They are the white ones. They are

582
00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:18,916
Speaker 1: the powerful ones. Right, that's why you have you go

583
00:32:18,956 --> 00:32:22,476
Speaker 1: to Miami. Right now, you'll see to this day converted

584
00:32:22,516 --> 00:32:26,116
Speaker 1: ice cream trucks, you know, yelling Trump, screaming it down

585
00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:28,956
Speaker 1: the street. Right, they're the ones in power. And so

586
00:32:29,036 --> 00:32:30,836
Speaker 1: Miami's are I mean, don't like, we can't even get

587
00:32:30,876 --> 00:32:34,476
Speaker 1: started on place like Miami. They're they're so lost in

588
00:32:34,516 --> 00:32:38,716
Speaker 1: the sauce, you know, like they're they're too far gone.

589
00:32:39,276 --> 00:32:42,236
Speaker 1: You come to a place like Los Angeles, so many

590
00:32:42,556 --> 00:32:46,036
Speaker 1: Latinos here don't even realize that they have power. They're

591
00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:48,916
Speaker 1: not even voting. They don't realize how much space they

592
00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:52,316
Speaker 1: take up in the conversation. And I've been having this

593
00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:54,356
Speaker 1: conversation a lot, and this is why I think the

594
00:32:54,356 --> 00:32:57,236
Speaker 1: city comes with conversation is actually important. I'm so glad

595
00:32:57,236 --> 00:32:59,516
Speaker 1: you turn it that way. And I've been thinking about

596
00:32:59,556 --> 00:33:02,676
Speaker 1: the scandal at the last counsel in exactly those terms

597
00:33:02,676 --> 00:33:04,596
Speaker 1: and trying to make sense of it. And it was

598
00:33:04,716 --> 00:33:07,036
Speaker 1: enough of a scandal, like on the local level that

599
00:33:07,116 --> 00:33:09,436
Speaker 1: even Biden felt like he had to weigh in and

600
00:33:09,876 --> 00:33:12,516
Speaker 1: demand that they resign. I mean, the President of the

601
00:33:12,596 --> 00:33:15,116
Speaker 1: United States had to step in, and maybe if the

602
00:33:15,396 --> 00:33:17,356
Speaker 1: mid terms weren't coming up, he wouldn't have done that.

603
00:33:17,796 --> 00:33:19,476
Speaker 1: But I think I'm hearing what you're saying. On you

604
00:33:19,556 --> 00:33:21,556
Speaker 1: both of you could correct me if I'm wrong about this.

605
00:33:21,636 --> 00:33:24,916
Speaker 1: But in some ways, the racism that was exposed, which

606
00:33:24,916 --> 00:33:28,316
Speaker 1: was really ugly, also sort of masked the other thing

607
00:33:28,356 --> 00:33:31,036
Speaker 1: that was going on that was revealed is that these

608
00:33:31,196 --> 00:33:34,956
Speaker 1: four powerbrokers didn't really give a fuck about people in

609
00:33:34,956 --> 00:33:38,236
Speaker 1: the community and especially working class people. I mean, they

610
00:33:38,276 --> 00:33:41,796
Speaker 1: were talking about holding power and retaining power, and you're

611
00:33:41,836 --> 00:33:44,356
Speaker 1: talking about like from the bottom up. They were figuring

612
00:33:44,396 --> 00:33:47,276
Speaker 1: out ways to negotiate to keep themselves in power. But

613
00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:50,196
Speaker 1: they were dismissing people from Wahaka as you said, like

614
00:33:50,436 --> 00:33:51,996
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what village they're from. They

615
00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:55,076
Speaker 1: just showed up here, and you know, and they were

616
00:33:55,116 --> 00:33:57,716
Speaker 1: willing even to seed certain districts to keep a black

617
00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:00,036
Speaker 1: council member in place so that they could stay in power,

618
00:34:00,596 --> 00:34:05,676
Speaker 1: and that kind of like coalition building just for itself.

619
00:34:06,076 --> 00:34:08,716
Speaker 1: This is what a political machine does. A machine, a

620
00:34:08,716 --> 00:34:13,716
Speaker 1: political machine reproduces itself and isn't about sort of lifting

621
00:34:13,716 --> 00:34:16,996
Speaker 1: anybody up that might be an offshoot of it. Is

622
00:34:16,996 --> 00:34:19,196
Speaker 1: that right? Like like is that what you're saying? Like

623
00:34:19,236 --> 00:34:22,116
Speaker 1: this is uh, it was exposed that they didn't care

624
00:34:22,156 --> 00:34:26,236
Speaker 1: about about the people in the community. They are self serving,

625
00:34:26,636 --> 00:34:29,516
Speaker 1: you know, like that the conversation literally proves their self serving.

626
00:34:29,596 --> 00:34:31,836
Speaker 1: But I do think that that conversation is happening in

627
00:34:31,876 --> 00:34:34,476
Speaker 1: more rooms than a than a record has been. Hell yeah,

628
00:34:34,516 --> 00:34:37,036
Speaker 1: hell yeah. You write about this in your book, you know,

629
00:34:37,076 --> 00:34:41,156
Speaker 1: about like actual progressive politics, you know, because I don't know,

630
00:34:41,196 --> 00:34:42,916
Speaker 1: I mean clear, we could we could hash this out

631
00:34:42,956 --> 00:34:44,756
Speaker 1: a little bit, like you know, here we have this

632
00:34:44,836 --> 00:34:48,116
Speaker 1: Democratic Party. It's like, what does it actually stand for.

633
00:34:48,716 --> 00:34:51,276
Speaker 1: And so I mean, you write in your book about

634
00:34:51,356 --> 00:34:54,436
Speaker 1: student debt, and you write about, you know, healthcare debt.

635
00:34:54,716 --> 00:34:57,796
Speaker 1: You write about these issues that are affecting real people

636
00:34:57,836 --> 00:34:59,876
Speaker 1: who like can't afford the country in the way it's

637
00:34:59,876 --> 00:35:04,076
Speaker 1: set up. And Democrats are the worst storytellers in the

638
00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:08,356
Speaker 1: world right now, in the world. That's huge there. They're

639
00:35:08,396 --> 00:35:12,956
Speaker 1: horrible story tellers. And Republican Party is an unbelievable storyteller.

640
00:35:13,596 --> 00:35:15,916
Speaker 1: And something I want to recommend that every human read

641
00:35:16,396 --> 00:35:20,076
Speaker 1: is by Josse Orga said, oh yeah, The Revolt of

642
00:35:20,116 --> 00:35:23,636
Speaker 1: the Masses. He wrote this in the twenties Homeboy. He

643
00:35:23,876 --> 00:35:27,316
Speaker 1: did some prophesizing. He separated the world into two people,

644
00:35:27,636 --> 00:35:30,636
Speaker 1: minorities and masses. Minorities had nothing to do with ethnicity

645
00:35:30,716 --> 00:35:33,756
Speaker 1: or race. Minority was if you are a surgeon, you

646
00:35:33,756 --> 00:35:37,556
Speaker 1: are a minority. You needed training, like that's legit, Like

647
00:35:37,676 --> 00:35:39,956
Speaker 1: not everybody can come in and cut out your kidney.

648
00:35:40,276 --> 00:35:42,876
Speaker 1: He was like, there are things where you need training,

649
00:35:43,196 --> 00:35:45,636
Speaker 1: and then there are masses. And he said, one day

650
00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:49,316
Speaker 1: something will come along that will allow the masses to

651
00:35:49,356 --> 00:35:51,876
Speaker 1: have a microphone and they will start to think they

652
00:35:51,876 --> 00:35:54,956
Speaker 1: are a minority. And he said that will be the

653
00:35:54,996 --> 00:35:58,356
Speaker 1: most dangerous day in the world, because people will start

654
00:35:58,396 --> 00:36:01,116
Speaker 1: gathering around the things they disagree on more than the

655
00:36:01,116 --> 00:36:03,756
Speaker 1: things they agree on. There will be so much power

656
00:36:03,836 --> 00:36:06,196
Speaker 1: around what we don't agree on versus what we agree on.

657
00:36:07,156 --> 00:36:12,956
Speaker 1: The Republican Party is so good at gathering around disagreements,

658
00:36:12,956 --> 00:36:16,196
Speaker 1: like they push it, push it, push that agenda so hard,

659
00:36:16,316 --> 00:36:20,556
Speaker 1: and it galvanizes, it galvanizes more than any democratic event

660
00:36:20,676 --> 00:36:24,116
Speaker 1: or party has ever galvanized anything. Right, because they're just

661
00:36:24,236 --> 00:36:28,556
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, no, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong.

662
00:36:28,596 --> 00:36:31,516
Speaker 1: They're trying to take from you. Yeah, I have I

663
00:36:31,556 --> 00:36:37,036
Speaker 1: have genuine issues with the storytelling of politics right now.

664
00:36:37,836 --> 00:36:40,316
Speaker 1: The Republican Party is really good at convincing them that

665
00:36:40,316 --> 00:36:46,276
Speaker 1: they're actually working for the people. Sure, yeah, we are

666
00:36:46,276 --> 00:36:48,596
Speaker 1: going to take another quick break. We'll be right back.

667
00:37:03,196 --> 00:37:05,676
Speaker 1: I want to come back to brownness, where we started

668
00:37:05,756 --> 00:37:11,556
Speaker 1: this conversation as a metaphor for reimagining how we should

669
00:37:11,636 --> 00:37:15,516
Speaker 1: think about what we owe each other. And in a way, Chris,

670
00:37:15,556 --> 00:37:18,796
Speaker 1: I'm really just I'm taking what I took from your

671
00:37:18,796 --> 00:37:22,156
Speaker 1: book and putting it back to you, trying to say, like,

672
00:37:22,236 --> 00:37:25,356
Speaker 1: this is how I understand how you want us to

673
00:37:25,396 --> 00:37:28,356
Speaker 1: reconsider who's in this conversation, and you use that as

674
00:37:28,396 --> 00:37:32,276
Speaker 1: a really powerful insight into why me the black guy

675
00:37:32,436 --> 00:37:35,636
Speaker 1: needs to pay closer attention to you, Chris, your story

676
00:37:35,836 --> 00:37:38,556
Speaker 1: and the millions of other stories like it, And why

677
00:37:38,596 --> 00:37:41,916
Speaker 1: Ben the white guy is in a way in a

678
00:37:41,956 --> 00:37:46,436
Speaker 1: position to bestow power on the rest of us by

679
00:37:46,556 --> 00:37:49,756
Speaker 1: virtue of the privileges that come with a whiteness. So

680
00:37:50,276 --> 00:37:53,756
Speaker 1: what you also tell us in this story of brownness

681
00:37:53,956 --> 00:37:58,276
Speaker 1: is that the grasp of power grows out of the

682
00:37:58,396 --> 00:38:04,356
Speaker 1: development of capitalism, and that capitalism has created austerity for everybody.

683
00:38:05,276 --> 00:38:08,916
Speaker 1: Austerity for the quality of life you live, Austerity for

684
00:38:08,956 --> 00:38:12,516
Speaker 1: your access to life saving treatments or just regular checkup

685
00:38:12,516 --> 00:38:16,516
Speaker 1: at the doctor called healthcare, austerity for the affordability of

686
00:38:16,516 --> 00:38:21,996
Speaker 1: a fricking education that everyone deserves, austerity, or, as Robert Reich,

687
00:38:22,076 --> 00:38:25,716
Speaker 1: the former Clinton labor secretary said, inequality for all. That's

688
00:38:25,716 --> 00:38:28,996
Speaker 1: what you get with capital. That is the story you tell,

689
00:38:29,116 --> 00:38:34,116
Speaker 1: And so so round us out with how appropriating brownness

690
00:38:34,196 --> 00:38:38,756
Speaker 1: for ourselves is also about reclaiming what we owe each

691
00:38:38,796 --> 00:38:42,196
Speaker 1: other in a society that should no longer be about austerity.

692
00:38:42,956 --> 00:38:45,316
Speaker 1: I'm going to round you out by using the donut metaphor,

693
00:38:46,396 --> 00:38:50,996
Speaker 1: and donut economics says, the world right now is an arrow.

694
00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:54,156
Speaker 1: The arrow must go up. The arrow must go up

695
00:38:54,156 --> 00:38:57,596
Speaker 1: by any means necessary in our world. Right, Yes, I

696
00:38:57,636 --> 00:39:00,716
Speaker 1: talk a lot about capitalism, and capitalism is dangerous, you know,

697
00:39:00,876 --> 00:39:03,756
Speaker 1: like it has been dangerous ever since. You know. We

698
00:39:04,316 --> 00:39:06,476
Speaker 1: took land from people and then then made them work

699
00:39:06,476 --> 00:39:08,156
Speaker 1: on the land we took and then paid them a

700
00:39:08,156 --> 00:39:10,476
Speaker 1: living that they could only spend that money at our stores,

701
00:39:10,516 --> 00:39:12,596
Speaker 1: so that we never lost any money. We have an

702
00:39:12,676 --> 00:39:15,596
Speaker 1: arrow that must go up at any means necessary, by

703
00:39:15,636 --> 00:39:20,796
Speaker 1: any means necessary means, at the cost of Khalil, Chris

704
00:39:20,836 --> 00:39:24,556
Speaker 1: and even Ben by any means necessary means. Like there

705
00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:28,236
Speaker 1: is a cost, except that cost is often taken from

706
00:39:28,276 --> 00:39:31,236
Speaker 1: bodies of culture more than other bodies. But the arrow

707
00:39:31,276 --> 00:39:34,356
Speaker 1: must move up. The stock market must rise. We must right.

708
00:39:34,716 --> 00:39:37,356
Speaker 1: The people who created the system of power must stay

709
00:39:37,396 --> 00:39:40,676
Speaker 1: in power, and the arrow must move up. Also it

710
00:39:40,756 --> 00:39:44,036
Speaker 1: relates to Republicans, right, they've sold that the arrow is

711
00:39:44,076 --> 00:39:46,316
Speaker 1: shifting down, and I will keep it up. I will

712
00:39:46,396 --> 00:39:51,116
Speaker 1: keep the arrow up me right. Donut economics says, we

713
00:39:51,196 --> 00:39:53,236
Speaker 1: want to stay in the in the flesh of the donut.

714
00:39:53,516 --> 00:39:55,636
Speaker 1: If you go towards the inside of the donut, you're

715
00:39:55,636 --> 00:39:57,876
Speaker 1: going to steal from the land and from the people.

716
00:39:58,156 --> 00:39:59,836
Speaker 1: If you go to the outside of the donut, you're

717
00:39:59,836 --> 00:40:01,596
Speaker 1: also going to steal from the land and the people.

718
00:40:01,716 --> 00:40:04,876
Speaker 1: Like what does it look like to stay in the flesh,

719
00:40:04,956 --> 00:40:06,956
Speaker 1: to think in a more reciprocal way? And so when

720
00:40:06,956 --> 00:40:10,036
Speaker 1: I think of brownness, I think of the I think

721
00:40:10,116 --> 00:40:12,356
Speaker 1: you know, we're in the we're in the meat. We're

722
00:40:12,396 --> 00:40:15,996
Speaker 1: thinking in a more ciprocal, more expansive way. We're thinking

723
00:40:16,036 --> 00:40:18,156
Speaker 1: of a less this that a less more and more

724
00:40:18,156 --> 00:40:21,716
Speaker 1: and more and a less. I get more breath, like

725
00:40:21,756 --> 00:40:23,996
Speaker 1: I wanted to take a deep breath there. I think

726
00:40:24,196 --> 00:40:27,916
Speaker 1: we heard it. When we think in a more expansive,

727
00:40:27,996 --> 00:40:31,476
Speaker 1: generous way, we realize, like I get to take a nap.

728
00:40:31,836 --> 00:40:33,476
Speaker 1: I don't got to be on this race for more

729
00:40:33,516 --> 00:40:35,356
Speaker 1: and more and more, this race that was sold to

730
00:40:35,396 --> 00:40:37,796
Speaker 1: me by whiteness. I don't have to be the arrow.

731
00:40:38,156 --> 00:40:42,676
Speaker 1: I get to be here having these conversations, these generous conversations,

732
00:40:43,076 --> 00:40:45,436
Speaker 1: like I don't keep it, get to meditate, I don't

733
00:40:45,436 --> 00:40:48,076
Speaker 1: have to keep proving it. I don't have to hustle, hustle,

734
00:40:48,156 --> 00:40:50,636
Speaker 1: hustle on a race that I was told like I

735
00:40:50,676 --> 00:40:53,796
Speaker 1: had to work extra hard just to even start. Nah,

736
00:40:53,836 --> 00:40:57,076
Speaker 1: screw your race. I'm hopping off the wheel like so so.

737
00:40:57,236 --> 00:41:01,196
Speaker 1: Brownness to me is a more expansive, delicious way of

738
00:41:01,236 --> 00:41:04,356
Speaker 1: living because it includes more of us, not less of us.

739
00:41:04,676 --> 00:41:08,636
Speaker 1: And it's less fighting for the arrow because an arrow

740
00:41:08,676 --> 00:41:10,596
Speaker 1: skinny hell, and only a couple of people are going

741
00:41:10,636 --> 00:41:12,996
Speaker 1: to get it. But the donut is fat, and we

742
00:41:13,036 --> 00:41:16,076
Speaker 1: can all eat from the donut. Fat Donuts. Hey, listen,

743
00:41:16,116 --> 00:41:18,756
Speaker 1: this is this is gonna be our new show spin

744
00:41:18,836 --> 00:41:23,636
Speaker 1: off Fat Donuts, the three of us. I love donuts.

745
00:41:23,676 --> 00:41:29,036
Speaker 1: I would I would eat donuts. Y'all love once a

746
00:41:29,076 --> 00:41:34,396
Speaker 1: month because metaphorically literally, we're gonna start a new show.

747
00:41:34,436 --> 00:41:38,756
Speaker 1: We're gonna have a franchise. We're gonna in New York, Chicago.

748
00:41:38,916 --> 00:41:45,476
Speaker 1: Fat Donuts gonna be yoga and donuts. Well, listen, Chris,

749
00:41:45,636 --> 00:41:48,236
Speaker 1: you've taught me a lot. I just own it for myself.

750
00:41:48,356 --> 00:41:51,636
Speaker 1: Really appreciate same here, Same here, man. How well you've

751
00:41:51,636 --> 00:41:54,676
Speaker 1: told your own story. The book is really great, and

752
00:41:54,956 --> 00:41:57,596
Speaker 1: you know, we just look forward to you telling us

753
00:41:57,636 --> 00:41:59,916
Speaker 1: more stories and teaching us more about a different way

754
00:41:59,956 --> 00:42:02,636
Speaker 1: to live with each other in the future. Thank you.

755
00:42:02,956 --> 00:42:05,676
Speaker 1: I'm really I'm really grateful for y'all appreciate. Thank you, Chris,

756
00:42:05,676 --> 00:42:14,956
Speaker 1: thank you so much, thank you, thank you, Chris. I'm

757
00:42:14,996 --> 00:42:16,956
Speaker 1: so glad Khalil that we got to talk about Los

758
00:42:17,036 --> 00:42:20,596
Speaker 1: Angeles today. You know, Mike Davis, the urban historian, died

759
00:42:20,996 --> 00:42:23,996
Speaker 1: in October. His City of Courts about about the city

760
00:42:24,036 --> 00:42:26,436
Speaker 1: definitely shaped my way of thinking about how we think

761
00:42:26,476 --> 00:42:30,676
Speaker 1: about cities. Yeah, yeah, and about America and writing about it.

762
00:42:30,676 --> 00:42:34,356
Speaker 1: It was a nineteen eighty story about like hyper surveillance.

763
00:42:34,796 --> 00:42:37,156
Speaker 1: He had a chapter called Fortress America. It was really

764
00:42:37,196 --> 00:42:41,716
Speaker 1: about a kind of dystopic vision of fear and the

765
00:42:41,956 --> 00:42:45,236
Speaker 1: other and how you know, white elites were just locking

766
00:42:45,276 --> 00:42:48,436
Speaker 1: it down for their own benefit and privilege. So prescient,

767
00:42:48,476 --> 00:42:52,316
Speaker 1: so prescient. And you know, we're talking about Los Angeles

768
00:42:52,436 --> 00:42:56,596
Speaker 1: today and we're talking about this scandal with the local officials,

769
00:42:56,996 --> 00:42:59,956
Speaker 1: and it feels like we're also talking about the Democratic Party, right,

770
00:43:00,356 --> 00:43:05,836
Speaker 1: we are the Democratic Coalition on this recording today, you know, black, brown,

771
00:43:05,876 --> 00:43:10,596
Speaker 1: and progressive white, and we are the Rainbow coalition at well,

772
00:43:10,676 --> 00:43:14,436
Speaker 1: and Los Angeles showed this, you know, in this scandal,

773
00:43:14,516 --> 00:43:18,436
Speaker 1: like how precarious this coalition is, how like how much

774
00:43:18,476 --> 00:43:20,796
Speaker 1: in fighting and how we don't really know how to like,

775
00:43:21,316 --> 00:43:23,596
Speaker 1: you know, hold it together. I really love you coming

776
00:43:23,636 --> 00:43:26,116
Speaker 1: back to this point because here we are on election

777
00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:29,476
Speaker 1: day and the future is uncertain and the point of

778
00:43:29,556 --> 00:43:34,156
Speaker 1: Chris's whole story, his life as he's lived it, his

779
00:43:34,996 --> 00:43:38,116
Speaker 1: commitment to the arts as a way to express his ideas,

780
00:43:38,636 --> 00:43:40,636
Speaker 1: and this book that he's written as a kind of

781
00:43:40,716 --> 00:43:44,076
Speaker 1: call to action for all of us, is to recognize

782
00:43:44,076 --> 00:43:46,876
Speaker 1: that living in a world that has been defined by

783
00:43:46,996 --> 00:43:50,116
Speaker 1: color as a way to hoard power for some at

784
00:43:50,156 --> 00:43:54,156
Speaker 1: the expense of others is the moment that we're living in. Yeah, yeah,

785
00:43:54,236 --> 00:43:56,796
Speaker 1: I mean it is a moment of white replacement theory.

786
00:43:56,916 --> 00:43:59,356
Speaker 1: I mean it is a moment where our political parties

787
00:43:59,716 --> 00:44:03,916
Speaker 1: cannot separate themselves from this existential threat. And uh, you know,

788
00:44:03,996 --> 00:44:06,196
Speaker 1: we don't know what the future holds, but we know

789
00:44:06,276 --> 00:44:08,876
Speaker 1: that every day matters at this moment, and having Chris

790
00:44:09,156 --> 00:44:12,396
Speaker 1: help us make sense of this is really valuable. And

791
00:44:12,476 --> 00:44:14,796
Speaker 1: you're right. So here we have this amazing storyteller on

792
00:44:14,876 --> 00:44:19,396
Speaker 1: the show, and you know, some story about a deeper

793
00:44:20,276 --> 00:44:23,596
Speaker 1: mission for equity which is escaping us, which we're not

794
00:44:23,636 --> 00:44:26,636
Speaker 1: talking about, and you know, and Chris brings that up

795
00:44:26,756 --> 00:44:29,556
Speaker 1: that came up in this recording in Los Angeles, and

796
00:44:29,676 --> 00:44:31,796
Speaker 1: you know, it's what we talked about today. I think

797
00:44:31,876 --> 00:44:36,036
Speaker 1: that no matter what comes in the not too distant future,

798
00:44:36,476 --> 00:44:39,556
Speaker 1: we have the right people to help us figure it out.

799
00:44:40,276 --> 00:44:42,316
Speaker 1: And uh, and I know I'm gonna be good because

800
00:44:42,356 --> 00:44:44,476
Speaker 1: I got you, man. I got you, man. Do you

801
00:44:44,476 --> 00:44:46,916
Speaker 1: mean to figure out how to do this podcast? Yeah?

802
00:44:46,956 --> 00:44:50,596
Speaker 1: We were whatever. All right, I'll see you on the

803
00:44:50,596 --> 00:44:52,876
Speaker 1: other side, all right, Love you, Yeah, love you man.

804
00:45:02,156 --> 00:45:04,556
Speaker 1: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of

805
00:45:04,636 --> 00:45:07,956
Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me

806
00:45:08,156 --> 00:45:12,276
Speaker 1: Khalil Gibrama and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced

807
00:45:12,276 --> 00:45:16,916
Speaker 1: by John Asante and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is Jasmine Morris,

808
00:45:17,236 --> 00:45:21,036
Speaker 1: our engineer is Amanda Kwang, and our executive producer is

809
00:45:21,076 --> 00:45:26,316
Speaker 1: mia Lebelle. At Pushkin, Thanks Selita Mullad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine,

810
00:45:26,716 --> 00:45:32,356
Speaker 1: Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Gretta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg. Our

811
00:45:32,476 --> 00:45:36,556
Speaker 1: theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the brilliant

812
00:45:36,596 --> 00:45:40,196
Speaker 1: Avery R. Young, from his album Pubman. You definitely want

813
00:45:40,196 --> 00:45:42,716
Speaker 1: to check out his music at his website. Avery R.

814
00:45:42,836 --> 00:45:46,076
Speaker 1: Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social

815
00:45:46,076 --> 00:45:49,236
Speaker 1: platforms at pushkin pods, and you can sign up for

816
00:45:49,276 --> 00:45:53,596
Speaker 1: our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts,

817
00:45:53,876 --> 00:45:57,956
Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

818
00:45:57,996 --> 00:46:00,996
Speaker 1: like to listen. And if you like our show, please

819
00:46:01,036 --> 00:46:03,436
Speaker 1: give us a five star rating and a review, and

820
00:46:03,556 --> 00:46:05,036
Speaker 1: listen even if you don't like it, give it a

821
00:46:05,036 --> 00:46:08,036
Speaker 1: five star rating and a review, and please tell all

822
00:46:08,076 --> 00:46:20,556
Speaker 1: of your best friends of about it. Thank you. I

823
00:46:20,556 --> 00:46:22,156
Speaker 1: don't know if I put this in the book, but

824
00:46:22,156 --> 00:46:24,196
Speaker 1: but I referenced it a lot. You know Howard is

825
00:46:24,236 --> 00:46:27,836
Speaker 1: in and like People's History of America, says the biggest trick.

826
00:46:28,076 --> 00:46:29,876
Speaker 1: Not in the book. Oh, not in the book. Not

827
00:46:29,996 --> 00:46:34,076
Speaker 1: in the book. Khalil has memorized the book. He knows

828
00:46:34,276 --> 00:46:36,516
Speaker 1: there's nothing you can you can't get anything past them.

829
00:46:36,636 --> 00:46:39,316
Speaker 1: Not in the book. Third printing. You almost wrote it

830
00:46:39,356 --> 00:46:41,676
Speaker 1: on page seventeen, but put it in the third printing.