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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, do you think physics is in a rut?

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Speaker 1: A rut like we've been solving deep problems and delivering

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Speaker 1: amazing technology for too long. You're getting tired of it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's getting a little repetitive, all these discoveries. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like, is it on the right track? You know?

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Speaker 1: Do you think it will it get to the final

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Speaker 1: deep questions about the universe? I don't know. Sometimes I

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Speaker 1: wonder if we need like a revolution in physics. Does

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Speaker 1: physics need to be disrupted? Somebody out there should start

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Speaker 1: uber for physics. I'm more of a lift person, to

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Speaker 1: be honest, I think they have a better outlook in

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Speaker 1: the world. But yes, that's what I mean. You know,

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Speaker 1: I want to be able to call a physicist anytime

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Speaker 1: in my with my phone. Um, well you already have that.

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Speaker 1: That's this podcast. Nice, I'll give you four stars. Daniel here.

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Speaker 1: Hi am Rhema cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics. Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel Whitson. I'm a particle physicist, and I'm here

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Speaker 1: to answer any question of physics on your app anytime.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge invent new physics apps.

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Speaker 1: For people who need physics on demand. Daniel and Jorge

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Speaker 1: make up terrible business ideas and pretending they're awesome. Now

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Speaker 1: it's Daniel and Jorge Explained the Universe, a production of

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Speaker 1: Our Heart Radio, in which we talk about all the

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Speaker 1: things amazing and beautiful but crazy and bonkers about our

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Speaker 1: universe because the more we learn, the more it makes sense,

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Speaker 1: the more it seems surprising and amazing. You know, within

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Speaker 1: we joke about it. But I think it would be

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Speaker 1: kind of a useful app. Don't you think, like anytime

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Speaker 1: anyone has a question about anything, you could just request

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Speaker 1: a physicist on your phone own and the nearest or

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Speaker 1: the most available physicists would answer and then answer your question.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that would be used a lot? Like

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Speaker 1: what kind of questions would people ask? How do we

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Speaker 1: reconcile the different theories about quantum physics? Sure? I think

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Speaker 1: it's more prosaic. It's like can I build a force

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Speaker 1: field to keep my teenager in his bedroom all night long? Also?

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Speaker 1: How does my toaster work? Why doesn't my toaster work?

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Speaker 1: That's probably be the number one question again? Can you

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Speaker 1: come fix my toaster? No, we're not engineers. You need

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Speaker 1: a different Uber for that. Yeah, but think about all

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Speaker 1: those grad students and post talcs and physics who are

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Speaker 1: looking for a little extra money. You know, they would,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they would sign up to answer people's questions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, there actually is a physics consulting service where

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Speaker 1: if you think you have the great next theory of

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Speaker 1: physics but you're not being taken seriously by the mainstream establishment,

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Speaker 1: there is a service where expert physicists will read your

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Speaker 1: theory and give you like top level criticism of it.

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Speaker 1: Why it's probably not the winner of the next year's

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Speaker 1: Nobel Prize. Yeah, it's called Daniel at Daniel and Jorge

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Speaker 1: dot com. It's true. There are people who send me

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Speaker 1: their theories two questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com,

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Speaker 1: and I try to take a look at them. But

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Speaker 1: there is a service which will spend you know, half

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Speaker 1: an hour or an hour actually digging into your theory. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they charge a lot, don't they don't They charge

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Speaker 1: you like fifty or something. You think that's a lot.

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Speaker 1: You think, like, you know, deep deep expertise of the

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Speaker 1: universe should coming like seven. Sure, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I want to know how my toaster works. But not

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Speaker 1: for fifty dollars, buy any toaster Roman for fifty dollars. Well,

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Speaker 1: then I guess you don't really want to know how

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Speaker 1: it works. You just want to buy a new one.

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Speaker 1: I want to buy a transparent toaster so I can

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Speaker 1: see how it works. Well, that's the difference between the

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Speaker 1: scientists and the engineer. The engineer just wants to make

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Speaker 1: it work, and the scientist wants to know why it

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. Yeah, we we just want to eat toast.

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Speaker 1: That's the basic difference. But sometimes scientists also want a

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Speaker 1: theory that just works. And in physics we were making

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Speaker 1: progress towards sort of like answering those deep questions of

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Speaker 1: the universe, but we're not quite there yet. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: guys have been pretty successful. You have a standard model

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Speaker 1: of the universe and some pretty good theories. You know,

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Speaker 1: you have the standard model, not the not the non

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Speaker 1: standard model. We should have called it something else, right,

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Speaker 1: Standard models just so boring. It's like the Beije model

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Speaker 1: of the universe. We should have called it the amazing model. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you have pretty much everything answered right, kind of,

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Speaker 1: except for some basic things about the universe. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: made a lot of progress, which is incredible. We've explained electromagnetism,

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Speaker 1: we've explained the weak foce, we've made a lot of

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Speaker 1: progress and understanding the strong nuclear force. And then, in

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Speaker 1: a totally different camp, with totally different people, using completely

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Speaker 1: different mathematics and ways of thinking, we've made some in

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Speaker 1: rows into understanding gravity. Yeah, but there are some You

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Speaker 1: have all these great theories, but there's something not wide

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Speaker 1: right right, Like it works, it's pretty successful for a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, but there's something kind of fundamentally almost

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Speaker 1: wrong with all of your theories. What did you say, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the problem is we have no theory that describes sort

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Speaker 1: of all of it. We have people who started from

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Speaker 1: the quantum mechanical side of things understanding that building an

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Speaker 1: incredible mind bending theory of the universe that seems to

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Speaker 1: be like an accurate description of the way things actually are.

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Speaker 1: And then we have people working from the other side,

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Speaker 1: starting from gravity and saying like, let's understand gravity is

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Speaker 1: a bending of space man, and they're actually making progress. Also,

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Speaker 1: the problem is these two theories don't agree with each other.

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Speaker 1: They don't play well, they don't have completely different views

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Speaker 1: of how the universe actually is. They're sort of incompatible.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like if you're building a bridge across

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic, and you know, you build one side starts

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Speaker 1: building a bridge, and the other side starts building a

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Speaker 1: bridge from their side, and you find out that you're

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Speaker 1: nowhere near each other in the middle. Yeah, exactly. Or

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Speaker 1: you're using technologies which just cannot fit to other and

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Speaker 1: that's the problem. Right. You're hoping that there is one

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Speaker 1: truth that you can start in different places in your

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Speaker 1: investigation and sort of work together to find the central truth.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes we wonder if these models just depend on

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Speaker 1: your perspective. There's different ways to look at the universe,

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Speaker 1: and some are successful and some are limited, and so

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Speaker 1: we don't know like which is the right way to

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Speaker 1: look at the universe, if if either of them are

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Speaker 1: even right, or we need something totally new, right, if

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Speaker 1: either of them right, because it almost sounds like maybe

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Speaker 1: both of them are not looking at the world, at

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Speaker 1: the universe and quite the right way, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you can't make them work together. Yeah, And there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of examples in history where physics has been like

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Speaker 1: very confidently almost wrapped everything up except for a couple

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Speaker 1: of little details which turn out when you pull on them,

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Speaker 1: unravel everything and reveal like a completely different view of

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Speaker 1: the universe that was quantum mechanics. You know, in the

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Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds, people felt like we've almost got this

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Speaker 1: thing wrapped up except for like, you know, the photoelectric

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Speaker 1: effect and the black body radiation, which revealed, of course

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Speaker 1: that the universe is quantized on a fundamental scale, which

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Speaker 1: blew everybody's minds. Kind of makes you wonder if maybe

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Speaker 1: physics needs to be shaken up a little bit, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of reset or you know, disrupted, or you know,

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Speaker 1: start from a totally needed perspective. Yeah, I think it's

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Speaker 1: possible physics today has all those elements of needing a

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Speaker 1: new idea, of needing a new perspective, of discovering, of

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Speaker 1: stumbling over something which shows us that we've just been

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Speaker 1: asking the wrong questions or starting our solutions from the

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Speaker 1: wrong point of view. And that's not embarrassing, you know.

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Speaker 1: That's the way we explore the world. We start from

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Speaker 1: our current understanding. We see how long it works, and

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Speaker 1: when it breaks, we think, can we just add another

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Speaker 1: little widget to it, or do we have to toss

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Speaker 1: everything out and build it from a different kind of

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Speaker 1: bit In today's episode, we'll be talking about one such

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Speaker 1: idea that might help bridge this connector gap between quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics and gravity. And it's a pretty new theory when

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Speaker 1: you say, it's sort of it's come out in the

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Speaker 1: last maybe what ten years, twenty years. I think it

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Speaker 1: has its history in the eighties, but it's been picking

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Speaker 1: up steam in the last ten or fifteen years, and

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Speaker 1: it's sort of emerging as a dark horse. It was

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Speaker 1: like first was sort of laughed off as a fringe

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Speaker 1: theory and you know, not nearly this popular other theories

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Speaker 1: of everything in quantum gravity, and so I think it's

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Speaker 1: recently gaining some sort of respectability. It's like millennials, you know,

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Speaker 1: born in the eighties but kind of easily discounted, but

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Speaker 1: now they're taking over the world. Are millennials getting respectable?

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Speaker 1: When did that happen? When we died? There? I'm working

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Speaker 1: on my theory of quantum respectability and currently I have

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Speaker 1: zero there you go. So today we'll be talking about

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Speaker 1: what about that theory. And the theory is loop quantum gravity.

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Speaker 1: What is it? Why is it in a loop? And

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Speaker 1: will it solve all the problems in physics? And here

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Speaker 1: I have to make a shout out to one of

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Speaker 1: our listeners, Jim Milco. Jim has been sending me questions

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Speaker 1: for about as long as we've been doing this podcast,

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Speaker 1: and he has been consistently asking for a podcast episode

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Speaker 1: about loop quantum gravity. So thanks for your patients, Jim,

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Speaker 1: here's your episode. Awesome as he sent you, any idea

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Speaker 1: is worthy of a Nobel price yet, Jim has sent

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Speaker 1: a lot of ideas and they're always fun to read.

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Speaker 1: So if you have ideas about the universe, or just questions,

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Speaker 1: or there's something you really want to understand more deeply

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Speaker 1: and you think we might be able to break it down,

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Speaker 1: please send your questions, your suggestions, your fundamental new theories

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Speaker 1: of the universe to questions at Daniel and Jore dot com. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thanks to Jim for listening and to everyone out there listening.

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Speaker 1: And so as usual, we were wondering how many people

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Speaker 1: out there know or have heard of loop quantum gravity.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of a it's sort of a it has

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Speaker 1: two sort of technical familiar words, but then a pretty

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Speaker 1: common word, which is loop. I was very curious in

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Speaker 1: these interviews to see if anybody had heard of this

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Speaker 1: thing and had any ideas. So I went in with

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Speaker 1: a completely open mind. So before you hear these answers,

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Speaker 1: think to yourself, do you know what Luke quantum gravity is?

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Speaker 1: Could you describe it? What would you answer? Here's what

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Speaker 1: people had to say. I mean, I would assume it

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Speaker 1: has something to do with gravity, nothing at all, nothing

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Speaker 1: at all. So I heard of quantum mechanics and read

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Speaker 1: like brief history of time. Okay, but I don't don't

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Speaker 1: know what loup quantum gravity could be. What came to

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Speaker 1: mind first was entanglement. But I don't think that necessarily

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Speaker 1: has anything to do with that. So it's just as

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Speaker 1: opposed to just making up something that I think it

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Speaker 1: might be. I don't know. I have not no no

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Speaker 1: idea that I'm not No, I have it nothing. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, all right, not a lot of penetration in

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Speaker 1: the public market. No, these folks have to work on

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Speaker 1: their pr for sure. String theory has them beat, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they need to get it mentioned in the next

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Speaker 1: Big Bang Theory episode. Oh maybe we should create a

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Speaker 1: setim called loop quantum gravity. I want to see you

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Speaker 1: pitching that, like, Hey, it worked for the Big Bang theory.

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Speaker 1: We just need another physics theory named titled sitcom that

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Speaker 1: makes fun of nerds. Yeah, well I'm in as long

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Speaker 1: as we have characters that both are smart and can

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Speaker 1: talk to human beings. Oh really yeah? Any Oh that hurts, man,

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Speaker 1: That hurts. So not. Not only a lot of people

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Speaker 1: seem to have heard of it. I mean I imagine

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Speaker 1: they most of them have heard of quantum mechanics or

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Speaker 1: have heard the word quantum if anything, from the Marvel movies,

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Speaker 1: and they surely have heard of gravity, but loop quantum

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Speaker 1: gravity is pretty pretty unknown. Yeah, it's a little bit esoteric,

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Speaker 1: but it's fascinating and it has really interesting ideas, and

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Speaker 1: those ideas could have really deep implications. It's the kind

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Speaker 1: of theory which, if it's correct, really changes the way

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Speaker 1: of our relationship with it. So it's super fun to

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Speaker 1: think about. And it's also really complicated and very technical,

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Speaker 1: and there's a humongous amount of complicated math involved, none

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Speaker 1: of which none of which you will have to understand

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Speaker 1: to get the basic ideas today, which is why Daniel,

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Speaker 1: to about this topic. Right, that's right, because I'm a

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Speaker 1: quantum gravity. So I went and I talked to Bianca Dittrich.

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Speaker 1: She's a professor at the Perimeter Institute in Canada, and

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Speaker 1: So here is Bianca. So my name is Bianca Ditwich,

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Speaker 1: originately from Germany. Also studied in Germany and then oscillated

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Speaker 1: All right, cool, So Bianca explained to you what loop

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Speaker 1: quantum gravity is. Yeah. I had a long conversation with

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Speaker 1: Bianca about why we need loop quantum gravity, how it

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Speaker 1: it are, how we could test it, and of course

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Speaker 1: then I had to ask her at the end about

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Speaker 1: black holes. Of course, because every good conversation ends in

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Speaker 1: a black hole literally, right, maybe at the end of

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Speaker 1: the universe, all that every conversation, everyone will ever have,

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Speaker 1: all that information will end up maybe in a black hole. Well,

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Speaker 1: what happens if you take a black hole and you

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Speaker 1: put it in a toaster oven. There's a question nobody's

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Speaker 1: ever asked, if I need to ask that a crunchy

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Speaker 1: outside of the inside will still be cold black hole temperature. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So what if I put a black hole in a microwave?

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Speaker 1: Then do I heat up the inside of the black hole.

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Speaker 1: That's a question I've never thought of. That's really a

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Speaker 1: fun question. All right, Well, that step us through what

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Speaker 1: Bianca explained to you, Daniel was so first of all,

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Speaker 1: I guess what is the big problem in physics? Did

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Speaker 1: that needs to be fixing? The big problem is that,

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Speaker 1: as we said earlier, we have two different basic ideas

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Speaker 1: and they start from very different places, and as you

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Speaker 1: said that they when they come together across the Atlantic,

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Speaker 1: they just don't meet. And those two ideas are quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics and general relativity of theory Einstein's theory of gravity.

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Speaker 1: It's weird to me that there would be too so

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Speaker 1: many so different theories about the universe. You know, wouldn't

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Speaker 1: they all sort of meet at the at the you know,

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Speaker 1: plus and minus mathematical level. Well, you'd hope so. And

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Speaker 1: this is sort of the way physics starts. You know,

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Speaker 1: if your caveman cave woman physicist, you begin building your

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Speaker 1: model of the universe by sort of looking at all

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Speaker 1: then saying, can I understand all of this stuff in

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Speaker 1: as simple as possible terms? And so you're like, all right,

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Speaker 1: there's the thing where things fall down, there's the thing

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Speaker 1: where lightning comes from the sky. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: same as this other thing where I get zapped, and

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Speaker 1: things falling down is actually the same thing as stars

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Speaker 1: moving through the sky. There's all these moments when we

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Speaker 1: sort of shrunk the list of ideas we need to

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Speaker 1: explain the universe. And so you hope that as this

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Speaker 1: list gets shorter and shorter, they fit together nicely. And

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Speaker 1: that's happened a lot of time so far. Electricity is

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Speaker 1: the same thing as magnetism, and it's all part of

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Speaker 1: this other thing called the electroweak force that has happened.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes you get, you know, you get two puzzle

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Speaker 1: pieces and they just don't fit together, all right. So

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Speaker 1: maybe step remind us Daniel, what each of these theories are, Like,

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Speaker 1: what's the what's the easy way to describe what general

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Speaker 1: relativity is, And what's the easy way to describe what

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics is. So general relativity is a way to

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Speaker 1: try to understand what is gravity. And remember that Newton

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Speaker 1: have mass pull on each other. So take a force, yeah, Newton,

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Speaker 1: that was the old thinking. That was the old thinking.

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Speaker 1: Newton thought gravity is a force, and it seems kind

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Speaker 1: of like a force. It acts like a force, like

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Speaker 1: electricity and magnetism, and he was able to write down

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Speaker 1: and it works pretty well. Now, Einstein came along and

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Speaker 1: he gave us general relativity, which is a complete reconception

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Speaker 1: of how gravity works. He said, no, no, gravity is

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Speaker 1: not a force. Gravity is a change in the shape

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Speaker 1: of space and time itself. Like you have a blob

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Speaker 1: of mass or blob of any kind of energy density,

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Speaker 1: it changes the shape of space and that's what makes

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Speaker 1: things move in curves. Rather than moving and what feels

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Speaker 1: like a straight line to us, things moved through bent space.

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Speaker 1: It's not like a mysterious invisible force that pulls things together.

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Speaker 1: It's more like when things exist, they distort, they bend

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Speaker 1: the space around them, and that's why they come together. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it's a beautiful idea and it's been tested exilient

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Speaker 1: ways and it works. It describes very tiny deviations in

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Speaker 1: Mercury's orbit. It describes how light bends around the Moon

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Speaker 1: during an eclipse. Big stuff, big stuff, Yeah, really thoroughly

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Speaker 1: extensively tested. It predicted gravitational waves, which we've actually seen

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Speaker 1: black holes to right and black holes. Yeah. And and

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Speaker 1: the thing to understand the things that that's going to

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Speaker 1: be make it in conflict with quantum mechanics is that

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Speaker 1: it's a classical theory meeting that it assumes that, like

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Speaker 1: you can describe everything perfectly, that everything has a position

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Speaker 1: and a direction and a location, right, and that the

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Speaker 1: space is operating in is smooth, Like you can subdivide

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Speaker 1: space as many times as you want between me and you.

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Speaker 1: There's an infinite possible locations for like a ball that

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Speaker 1: we're throwing back and forth. That's Einstein's vision of space. Right,

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Speaker 1: it assumes that everything is kind of smooth and continuous,

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Speaker 1: and there there are no bumps in the universe at

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Speaker 1: the microscopic level. That's right. You can zoom in forever

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Speaker 1: according to Einstein and general relativity, and things still stay

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Speaker 1: smooth and and everything has a fixed location. Right, the

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Speaker 1: ball is somewhere and space and time makes some sense.

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Speaker 1: There's no uncertainty or or weird or weirdness. That's right.

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Speaker 1: The world can be known, everything can be determined according

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Speaker 1: to general relativity. But then you have quantum mechanics, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And then on the other hand, building from the other

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Speaker 1: side of the ocean, you know, the toaster side of

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Speaker 1: the ocean instead of the microwave side of the ocean.

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Speaker 1: Um completely mixing metaphors, there is quantum mechanics. And quantum mechanics,

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Speaker 1: of course developed in the early part of this century

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Speaker 1: to explain some things that didn't make sense, some experiments

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Speaker 1: we saw which just could not be described using a

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Speaker 1: classical understanding of electromagnetism. It was really what was light

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Speaker 1: that gave us the first clues. We did a whole

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Speaker 1: podcast episode about the photoelectric effect and how we know,

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Speaker 1: the photon is a thing, and they did these experiments

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Speaker 1: that just didn't make sense unless you thought of light

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Speaker 1: as being made of tiny little packets of energy rather

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Speaker 1: than a smooth, continuous beam. You had to think about

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Speaker 1: it as these tiny packets. When you zoom in, things

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Speaker 1: don't behave nice and smooth and continuous there are sort

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Speaker 1: of lumpy and clumpy. Yeah, And there were also just

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Speaker 1: some problems with the theory, like there's a kind of

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Speaker 1: radiation in the universe called black body radiation, which is

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Speaker 1: just how things glow, Like everything in the universe has

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Speaker 1: a temperature and it glows with that temperature, and quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics predicted that well. Classical theory electromagnetism predicted a certain spectrum,

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Speaker 1: like if you're this temperature, you should glow with this color.

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Speaker 1: If you're that temperature, you should glow with that other color.

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Speaker 1: The problem was that it predicted that for certain temperatures

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Speaker 1: you should glow at a crazy nonsensical color, like if

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Speaker 1: you get an infinite amount of radiation. The original theory,

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Speaker 1: the one before quantum mechanics, said that things that certain

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Speaker 1: temperatures should have an infinite amount of light at very

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Speaker 1: very low wavelengths, right, it really really sort of it's

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Speaker 1: called ultra violet light, and that they should have like

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Speaker 1: a ridiculous amount of infinite amount of ultra violet light,

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Speaker 1: which is nonsensical. So you can do an ex perament

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Speaker 1: basically that proves that general relativity doesn't work for all cases. Well,

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Speaker 1: you can do an experiment that proves that the old

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Speaker 1: theory of electricity and magnetism doesn't work. And we knew

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Speaker 1: that didn't work. We're like, okay, this theory is making

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Speaker 1: a prediction that just doesn't make sense. But if you

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Speaker 1: add quantum mechanics to it, quantum mechanics says, oh, that's

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Speaker 1: just because light is not continuous. If you make light

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Speaker 1: into chunks, then if you predict that, you don't see

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Speaker 1: this crazy behavior. And that's in fact what we saw

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Speaker 1: in nature. And so we needed to sort of change

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Speaker 1: the theory. The theory gave nonsensical results. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: have to add this bit to it to say bit

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Speaker 1: that says, okay, well there's a minimum size to a photon,

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Speaker 1: and that solved that problem. It said, okay, now you

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Speaker 1: can make realistic predictions. And so but the thing to

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Speaker 1: understand is that like quantum mechanics changes also the way

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Speaker 1: we think about the universe, right, it says things are uncertain,

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Speaker 1: things are fluctuating. This is like crazy randomness the heart

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Speaker 1: of the universe. All right. So those are the two

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Speaker 1: two big titans in physics theories, right, general activity and

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics to try to explain the universe. And the

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Speaker 1: problem is that they don't play well together. So let's

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Speaker 1: get into a little bit of why they don't play

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Speaker 1: well together and whether this idea of loop quantum gravity

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Speaker 1: can help solve that. But first let's take a quick break,

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Speaker 1: all right, Daniel, So general relativity and quantum mechanics don't

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Speaker 1: play well together. Is it fair to say? Is it?

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Speaker 1: Is it kind of like I'm trying to think of

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Speaker 1: an analogy. Is it kind of like microeconomics and macro economics, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, macro economics is good for you know, big

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Speaker 1: economies and countries and and micro economics is good for

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Speaker 1: like how people make decisions, but like somehow they don't always.

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Speaker 1: It's weird to think about where they meet in the middle. Perhaps,

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Speaker 1: but in those two cases, one should be an extreme

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Speaker 1: case of the other. Here it's really you have a

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Speaker 1: fundamental different view of how the universe works. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's more like totally different kinds of art, you know,

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Speaker 1: like figurative art versus symbolic art. Like what's a better

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Speaker 1: way to describe the human experience? You know? Is that

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Speaker 1: through abstract splashes of color or is it by you know,

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Speaker 1: depicting the things we see in interesting juxtapositions or something.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's right, right, it's like a totally

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Speaker 1: lens or you know, totally set of glasses. Yes, it's

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Speaker 1: a completely different way of thinking about the world. And

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Speaker 1: people have been trying for a long time to bring

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Speaker 1: them together to say, all right, are these things in

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Speaker 1: conflict or can we make a consistent sort of quantum

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Speaker 1: theory of gravity that brings it all together? Right? And

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Speaker 1: so here is Bianca talking about that question. It's one

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Speaker 1: of the really big outstanding questions and physics and and

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Speaker 1: my view it really means quantum gravity should include a

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Speaker 1: new notion of space time. We have to replace it, however,

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Speaker 1: with something completely new we expected that which change quite

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Speaker 1: dramatically as a foundation, so physics um and get very

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Speaker 1: interesting insights into you know, the nature of space and time.

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Speaker 1: All right, So it seems like we need something totally

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Speaker 1: new here um, And so Daniel, can you explain to

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Speaker 1: me kind of what the problem is, like why can't

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Speaker 1: they play well together? The ones that we have. Well,

428
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: people have been trying to bring these two things together

429
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: since basically they've existed. You know, people have been working

430
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: on making gravity into a quantum theory for a very

431
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: very long time. But you know, quantum theories traditionally thinking

432
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 1: about forces very differently than gravity does. They think about

433
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: forces is like ripples in a quantum field. You know,

434
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: you have like the electromagnetic field, and you think about

435
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 1: how do photons communicate the electromagnetic field. There are ripples

436
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 1: in this electromagnetic field, and you quantize those ripples. That's

437
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: how quantum mechanics thinks about forces. But in general, relativity

438
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 1: of force is really more like a bending out space.

439
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: That's right, And mostly you can do this. You can say, like,

440
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: all right, well, can I make a quantum theory of gravity?

441
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: Can I build a theory where I exchange where gravity

442
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: is a field and it has ripples and those ripples

443
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: are quantized, just like I can for electromagnetism, And mostly

444
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: you can, actually you can. It's mostly it works, but

445
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: it fails in some moments. Couldn't you just have quantum

446
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: fields in a general relativity you know world? You know, like,

447
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: couldn't you have quantum particles that bend space as well?

448
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: Like why can't I a quantum particle also bend space

449
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: like a planet? Well, but then gravity is coming from

450
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: something that's classical, that's smooth and continuous, and general relativity

451
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: is just not a quantum theory, right, Like it assumes

452
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: that you know everything about the location and the time

453
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: and the position. What couldn't you just make the bending

454
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: also kind of uncertain? I'm just trying to figure out

455
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: why why you can't marry the two, you know, why

456
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: can't these particles and these fields exist in a world

457
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: that is as Einstein envisioned with the bending and the

458
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: gravity that's exactly what Looke gravity is? Or hey, you

459
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: just basically invented the idea prize right now, Thank you

460
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: very much. That's right, And you know this other idea

461
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: that like, let's take the gravitational field and think about

462
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: as a quantum field that mostly works. The important thing

463
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: to understand is that it only fails when gravity gets

464
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: really really strong, right, things like inside a black hole,

465
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 1: and what happens is that it makes nonsense predictions like

466
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: it just like we saw for the black body radiation.

467
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: It predicts like infinite amount of energy will be released,

468
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: but we know that's not true. We know it doesn't happen.

469
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: And so the theories work except in extreme circumstances. And

470
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: that's what makes it really hard, is like it's easy

471
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: to fix the theory when you can see it breaking.

472
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: But these theories general relativity and quantum mechanics, they only

473
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: disagree about like what happens in the inside of a

474
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: black hole, and we can't see that. Why don't we

475
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: just like nor black hole? If we just like nor

476
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 1: black holes in the universe, wouldn't that make our there's

477
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: a lot wouldn't that make physics a little bit easier,

478
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, because it's all it seems like it seems

479
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: like everything breaks in a black hole, and so why

480
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: don't It's like, you know, the mess in my closet.

481
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: Let's just ignore it's the engineering, you man, that's the engineering.

482
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: The scientist in me is desperate to know. You have

483
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: to know inside a black hole. Yes, if you have,

484
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: you created a black hole in your closet, because if

485
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: so I'm coming over and I want to check it out.

486
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: I think we're close to the singularity. To be honest,

487
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: in there, you don't want to go in there that

488
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: you may never come out like you have all these

489
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: rejected toaster microwave prototypes in there, that's right, all these

490
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: rejected app ideas as well. And so these two things

491
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: aren't working together. Well. People have tried, but they just

492
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: give nonsense predictions like the calculations you get suggested, you know,

493
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: infinite amount of energy in a radiated inside a black

494
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: hole when gravity gets really strong, And we can't easily

495
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: test that because we don't have a black hole and

496
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: and I don't have a galaxy sized particle collider. I

497
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: would need to create the sort of energy density in

498
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: order to break quantum gravity. And so what we need

499
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: is we need to see inside a black hole, or

500
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: we need a new idea, and so we need Jorge's

501
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: vision of quantum gravity. I have an idea. How about

502
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: something called loop quantum gravity. That's such a great name too.

503
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: All right, So we have these two fourth theories, and

504
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: you know, one of them has an h thunderbolt cable

505
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: connector and the other side is a mini USB cable connector,

506
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: and so they don't fit. And so that's what this

507
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 1: idea of loop quantum gravity is. It's like, maybe it's

508
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: like an adapter. That is it like an adapter that

509
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: makes it to work or is it a totally new

510
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: cabling system. Yeah, it says instead of trying to think

511
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: of gravity is like a Newtonian gravity as a force

512
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: um and and and quantizing that gravitational field directly. Instead

513
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: take Jorges idea, which is just takes space itself and

514
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: quantize that and say, well, maybe general relativity is basically right,

515
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: except that instead of working on a smooth continue in

516
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: US space, we work on a space that is quantized,

517
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: like there are pixels of space instead of space being

518
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: infinite and smooth, they are like little chunks of space.

519
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: It would explain how quantum particles move, or it would

520
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: explain how gravity can be quantized. It would allow us

521
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: to build a theory of quantum gravity that doesn't make

522
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: nonsense predictions, because it basically makes the places where those

523
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 1: predictions get nonsense impossible, like the predictions of quantum gravity

524
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,239
Speaker 1: breakdown really high energies and really small distances. So the

525
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: idea is basically, well, what if really small distances aren't allowed,

526
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: like there's just nothing smaller than ten of the minus

527
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: thirty five where things break down, then there isn't the problem.

528
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: Let's just ignore the closet and assume that the closet

529
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: is QUANTIEDA it's just one thing, I see. Yeah, it's

530
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: it's not ignoring the closet. It's saying the closet doesn't exist.

531
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: You were so worried about the closet. It turns out

532
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: it's impossible. There is no clause it. But it sounds

533
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: like you're trying to make gravity quantized. You're not trying

534
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: to make quantum things the bendy like space. Well, if

535
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: space is bendy and quantized, then you quantum things move

536
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: through quantizes bend bendy space. So this would allow you

537
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: to bend space in a quantized way. Yeah, it would

538
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: allow you to bend space in a quantized way. And

539
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of a beautiful idea because it's very

540
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: similar to the origin of quantum mechanics itself. Right, we

541
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: solve the problem of black body radiation, of this thermal

542
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: emission giving crazy numbers by saying, oh, maybe we can

543
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: just um quantize photons and that mathematically solves that problem. Here,

544
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: we're solving the problem of infinite emissions inside black holes

545
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: and really high energies and small distances by saying, oh,

546
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: maybe we quantize space, and so those small distances are impossible.

547
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: So there's there's a beautiful sort of analogy there to

548
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: previous structures of solutions that suggests like tensively like, oh,

549
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: maybe this is the right track because it feels like

550
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: nineteen fifteen a little bit. That's right. We're gonna party

551
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: like it's people are growing mustaches and wearing top hats,

552
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: and you're like, I like it. I like it, except

553
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: for the fact that like, no women are allowed to

554
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: do physics. That's the bad part, all right. So the

555
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: idea is that maybe space and time itself like space

556
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: and time like there are no there's no there's no

557
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: infinite as at least small second. That's right, And that's

558
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: a question people have been sending me over email many times.

559
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: If you quantize space, you also quantize time. And you know,

560
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: space time is a fabric in this theory and they're

561
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: deeply connected, and so if you're quantizing space, then yes,

562
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: you're also probably quantizing time. Well, it's like you're there's

563
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: actually a ticking clock to the universe. Maybe, yeah, there's

564
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: a minimum time that makes sense. You know, you can't

565
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: infinitely divide a second into arbitrarily tiny slices. There's a

566
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: minimum of time below which makes no sense. Okay, And

567
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: so what does that mean? I guess space is not

568
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: really like space. Space is more like a clump of

569
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: little spaces. Well, the reason it's called loop quantum gravity

570
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: is that the way to think about it is that

571
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: space is a bunch of these loops and they're sort

572
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: of woven together. And so think about spaces like chain mail.

573
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: If you're into D and D. You know, it's like

574
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: a bunch of links that are all connected to each other.

575
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: And space comes out of that, right spaces, There are

576
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: these The fundamental thing in the universe are these little loops,

577
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: and the loops are woven together. And the way that

578
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: things move through space, and the way that gravity happens

579
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: is how these little loops interact with each other and

580
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: pull on each other and are built together. To what

581
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: are these little loops? They're like little bits of the universe.

582
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: That's the next Nobel prize, man, you want to win

583
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: two Nobel prizes in a single podcast, in a single

584
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: let's do you have enough for this to be a physicist?

585
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: For the what do you call the hat the hat trick?

586
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: A hat trick? You're gonna go for three Nobel prizes.

587
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: That's when you get fifteen minutes off, Daniel, Let's do

588
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: it when you invent the perfect toaster microwave combination, that

589
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: definitely is worth a novel prize. Well, nobody knows what

590
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: these loops are, and you know that's sort of the

591
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: next question, Like if you can start from these loops

592
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: and build a theory that describes everything and predicts the

593
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: universe and it is consistent with everything we know, then

594
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: the next question is you're like, well, why these little loops?

595
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: What do they mean? How do we get those little

596
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: loops right? Where do they come from? Do they emerge

597
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: from something deeper? You know, physicists are great at making

598
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: answers that create more questions. But I guess why call

599
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: them loops? Are they actually like little rings that are

600
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: tied together? What does that? Why not call them I

601
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: don't know, bubbles or uh pixels or you know what

602
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: I mean? Like, what is it about the idea of

603
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: a loop that gives it the name loop quantum gravity. Well,

604
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: I guess bubbles would work also, But I think it's

605
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: just a visualization idea. You know that these things are

606
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: linked together um and it's sort of a mesh, and

607
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: you know there are also loops, like we're doing calculations

608
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: around in a circle. You have to avoid a sort

609
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: of trap, Like you can't think about these as loops

610
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: in space. They're not like um circles on some axis, right,

611
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: because when you have what is that access, we're talking

612
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: about the very nature of space itself. It's not like

613
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: these loops are somewhere and like this loop is at

614
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: this point in that loop is at that point. The

615
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: loops are the points like space is these this thing

616
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: we're talking about like the nature of space itself, which

617
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: is really hard to sort of wrap your mind around. Oh,

618
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: I see you. You were just looking at you guys

619
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: were just looking for like a word that implies that

620
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: space is made up of little things that are kind

621
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: of interconnected or overlapping, right, or like hooked together. M

622
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: m okay. And so you went with them loops. I

623
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: was like loops. They went with loops. I think it's

624
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: not a terrible idea, you know, they could have called

625
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: it the bubble quantum gravity, but hear it. But you know,

626
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: we talked about this another time in the podcast. You

627
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 1: can think of these things as little bubbles, and then

628
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: you get to talk about things like space foam and

629
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: quantum foam because these loops aren't fixed, right, they can

630
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: like fluctuate in and out of existence. I see. So

631
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: these are all related ideas loop quantum gravity, space foam,

632
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: quantum foam. They're all sort of coming at this idea

633
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: of a bubbly space and thinking about space not as

634
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: continuous and smooth but made up of little quantized bits,

635
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: like let's quantize space itself because general relativity is an

636
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: attempt to understand gravity in terms of the nature of space.

637
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: And so if we're gonna get a quantum theory of gravity,

638
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: the idea is, let's let's just quantize space itself, all right.

639
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: So that's quantum loop or loop quantum gravity, and so

640
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: we'll get into what are some of the open questions

641
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: and why people think it may or may not be

642
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: the ultimate answer to how the universe works. But first

643
00:34:49,120 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. Okay, Daniel, what does it

644
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: all mean? What does loop quantum gravity mean? If it's

645
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: true or if it's not true, and why do we

646
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 1: think it might not be true? All right, well here's

647
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: the big letdown. Right, So, so far it seems like

648
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: you're gonna break the loop. I'm gonna break the loop. Yeah.

649
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: It seems like a beautiful idea. It seems really promising.

650
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: It seems like dot dot dot the next obvious step

651
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: in physics. Right. The problem is there's a lot of

652
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 1: problems with it, and there's a lot of open questions.

653
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean it's not gonna work. It just

654
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: means it's far from clear that it is going to work. Well,

655
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: I see, there's a room for us skepticism. Yeah, and

656
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: even among physicists there's a lot of skepticism about loop

657
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: quantum gravity. It's a bit of a fringe theory. There

658
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: are a lot more people working, for example, on string theory,

659
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: which is a completely different attempt to unify gravity and

660
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics and all of the other forces all at once.

661
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: String theories like a theory of everything, where loop quantum

662
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: gravity is like, let's just focus on make in gravity

663
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: of quantum theory. If you can do that, then that's

664
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: another way to unify these two big theories. Yeah, the

665
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: string theory is sort of a The other idea is

666
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: that the opponent of Looke quantum gravity, let's build a

667
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: tunnel under the Atlantic instead of trying to make these

668
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 1: two bridges work. And the string theory is a much

669
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: bigger community, has a lot more people working on it,

670
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: people are sort of more excited about it, whereas Looke

671
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: quantum gravity is like, you know, the younger sibling in

672
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: terms of theories of quantum the underdog exactly making me

673
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: like it more now, And one reason is that it

674
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: sort of hasn't yet delivered on its promise. Like, what

675
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: you want to do is start from this concept of

676
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: loops and from it should emerge Einstein's theory of relativity.

677
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: You should be like, I'm gonna have a completely different

678
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: picture of the world, but it's going to give the

679
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: same predictions sort of at my scale. I should still

680
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: describe how a ball flies over my neighbor's wall, and

681
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: how and gravitational waves and all of that stuff. You

682
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: should be able to sort of are from there and

683
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: build up to general relativity. You start off imagining the

684
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: world the universe is a mesh of of loops, but

685
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 1: it doesn't give you baseballs and fences. Yeah, not yet.

686
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: And it's not like they can't do it. It's just like,

687
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: well they haven't quite figured it out yet, and it's hard,

688
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: right this is are difficult things, and people are hacking

689
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: with their machetes through the jungle of mathematics that's involved,

690
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 1: and it's not always clear that we have the right tools,

691
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: and sometimes progress is paused for like a decade or

692
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: thirty years until somebody's like, hey, we've heard this new

693
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: idea from mathematics. Turns out that's exactly what we need

694
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: over here. That kind of thing has happened in physics

695
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: at a lot of times. And there are other sort

696
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: of really interesting problems with loop quantum gravity, which actually

697
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: conflict with relativity. Okay, so there's maybe something fundamentally wrong here,

698
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: you know, or not necessarily wrong, but it would again

699
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: change the way we think about the universe. Like, here's

700
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: the problem with quantizing space. Says there are space pixels, right,

701
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: that means that in some sense there's a minimum distance

702
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: to the universe. But what is that distance? Because we

703
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 1: know that distances depend on velocities, right, Like as you

704
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: move faster, things get shrunk, so do things that are

705
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: moving see smaller space pixels than things that are stationary,

706
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: And if so, it would mean that there is some

707
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: sort of absolute velocity to the universe. Right, if you

708
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: can measure your space pixel the size of your space pixels,

709
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: that tells you sort of what your absolute speed is.

710
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: But special relativity has always told us velocity is relative.

711
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: There is no absolute frame, and so this is sort

712
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: of conflict with a really really core concept and special relativity.

713
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: Couldn't it be like the speed of light, which like

714
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: it always looks the same no matter how fast you're going.

715
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: Couldn't these loops always look the same no matter how

716
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: fast you're going. Yeah, So there's a lot of ways

717
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: to try to solve this problem. One is to say,

718
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: you know, we have these weird space pixels which to

719
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: form under certain circumstances, and there's some very complicated mathematics

720
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: involved to do essentially what you just described. You're really

721
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: hidden out of the park today with like going for

722
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: the hat track here, wait wait till you see why

723
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: what I pull out at the last five minutes. And

724
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: the other is to accept it and to say, you

725
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: know what, maybe there is maybe there is an absolute

726
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: reference frame. Maybe special relativity is slightly wrong, But wouldn't

727
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: that throw the whole light speed thing off. Well, not

728
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: all of special relativity has to be wrong. The consequence

729
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: would be that light would travel at a slightly different

730
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: speed as a function of its frequency. So like high

731
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: frequency light would travel that is slightly different speed from

732
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: lower frequency light like X rays and UV light would

733
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: move faster than radio waves. But it'd be a really

734
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: small difference to be really hard to tell, all right,

735
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: So there's some skepticism or I guess some open questions

736
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: about it, because it's not quite hitting it out of

737
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 1: the ballpark, over your fence or not into your neighbors

738
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: house or not um And so I guess the question

739
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: is what does it all mean? I mean, what if

740
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: it happens to be true? And how are we even

741
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: going to know of something like this is true? Yeah,

742
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: so of course the deep question I have is what

743
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: does this mean for the nature of the universe? And

744
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 1: how could we see it? Right? Where would it manifest itself?

745
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: And as we talked about at the beginning of the episode,

746
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: the place this would really be important, the place you

747
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: would notice at difference, the place where it matters is

748
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: inside a black hole of course, of course, right, so

749
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: let's go there, Let's go into the closet there. That's right,

750
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: we're opening the closet and all who knows what's in

751
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 1: there and who knows what's been growing? And so I

752
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: asked Bianca the professor, because she thinks about this stuff, right,

753
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: she thinks about what happens inside black holes when gravity

754
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: gets really strong and space gets twisty. And I asked her, like,

755
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: what is your mental image of inside a black hole?

756
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: Because I want to know, right, I mean, there's a

757
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: black hole in her mind at least, and I want

758
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: to know what does it look like inside her mind?

759
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: Effects will be only important very near the singularity. There,

760
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: the space and coviatures really getting very large. And maybe

761
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: I'd like to think that there's a new universe which

762
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: opens up with each singularity, which gives us much more

763
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: universes than we know of. Yeah, she went there, she

764
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: went for there are new universes inside black holes. I

765
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: love it. There's a new universe in my closet. I

766
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: would believe that. And inside that closet there are other

767
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: closets with other closets inside them, I meaning meaning that's

768
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: kind of a consequence of quantum blue gravity is that

769
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: when you get to these extreme singularities, these loops kind

770
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: of what like open up or you know, become their

771
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: own little universes. Is that the idea, I will not

772
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: pretend to even understand what that means, because there's some

773
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: crazy consequences that like, if there's a universe inside every

774
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: black hole, is our universe inside a black hole? You know,

775
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: maybe who knows? It's crazy stuff? Yes, is your answer.

776
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 1: I go with the s and that's my third Nobel

777
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,720
Speaker 1: Prize claim. Or is that the conclusion to your pitch

778
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: or your loop quantum gravity sitcom episode there Echo at

779
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: the end of season twenty, it turns out they're all

780
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: in a black hole. That's right, And you know, we

781
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: might be able to figure this out in ways other

782
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: than going to a black hole. We actually do have

783
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: ideas for how you could test this, and they revolve

784
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: around seeing whether we can tell the difference in the

785
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: speed of light from high frequency and low frequency light.

786
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: The speed of light changes, which we didn't think it did,

787
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: but if it changes with frequency, then that's an indication

788
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: maybe there's something loopy going on. Yeah, maybe there's something

789
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: loopy going on, And this would be a really small effect.

790
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: So what you need to do is like have a

791
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: race between photons of different frequencies high frequency versus low frequency,

792
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 1: and the race would have to be super long because

793
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: light goes super past of course, and it's different is

794
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: really small. And so what they do is they look

795
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: for light sources that are really really far away and

796
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: then try to measure see if there's a difference in

797
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: like the arrival time of photons. Would you would I

798
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: need to know where they're coming from, right, Yeah, So

799
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: we have these sources which are variable, like quasars and

800
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: pulsars that are really far away. You know, they pulse,

801
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 1: and so you can sort of line the two up

802
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: and say, well, we know these two were emitted at

803
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: the same moment because they are the top of the

804
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: pulse at the same time or something. And then you

805
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: can say, well, did they arrive in sync or are

806
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: they sort of out of sync? And so there's a

807
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: satellite which looked out and measured this and looked for this.

808
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: What did they find, Well, this is the integral satellite.

809
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: And that's some tortured acronym for I don't even know

810
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: what is it. Really, It's called integral up and what

811
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: they found they didn't see anything, right, They didn't see

812
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: any difference in the arrival times. I didn't see any loops.

813
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: And they were able to say that if there are loops,

814
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: they're smaller than ten to the minus forty eight meters.

815
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: What they can do that, that's by looking at two photons. Yeah,

816
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: by looking at these photons, because the photons come from

817
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: really really far away, and so the differences would be

818
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: added up across the universe. And they claim they should

819
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: have seen them. They saw that they were in sync.

820
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 1: They were in sync. Yeah, and this is thirteen orders

821
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: of magnitudes smaller than what we think the size of

822
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: the loops are. So like that seems pretty definitive. Yeah,

823
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: but what did the loop quantum gravity folks say, Well,

824
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, there's only one branch of loop quantum gravity.

825
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: The people who say that maybe that's that special relativity

826
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: needs to be tweaked. Other people have solutions, as you say,

827
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: to make light travel the same speed no matter what,

828
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: by having you know, crazy deformations these things, and all

829
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: sorts of complicated interactions between light and space, and so

830
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: it just sort of rules out one branch of loop

831
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: quantum gravity. You can never kill these theories. Man, They're

832
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: like weeds. They always there's another version that crops up there,

833
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: like exide one head of But they're fascinating, you know.

834
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 1: Each one is a wonderful exploration and sort of the

835
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: intellectual space of like how could the universe work? What

836
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 1: possible universes might we live in? And the amazing thing

837
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: is that there is an answer, right, there is one

838
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 1: way that the universe actually works. And what's kind of

839
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: interesting I think is that it wouldn't affect your everyday life,

840
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 1: like things would still work the same way. But who

841
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: knows what's going on down at the fundamental level? Right,

842
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: it could be one of these crazy theoretical ideas. Yeah,

843
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: and it's important now to scientists, but it might eventually

844
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: be important to engineers. You know, knowledge that seems impractical

845
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 1: and useless but reveals the fundamental nature of reality could

846
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: eventually be useful and hate to me, that's fun anyway.

847
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: I don't really care if it's useful. I just gotta know, right, Yeah,

848
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's how micro rays were invented,

849
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 1: actually by accident, by looking at something else. And where

850
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: would we be? Where would burritas be these days? That's right.

851
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: And you know, there have been actually fascinating advances in

852
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: microwave and the technology the engineer ring of microwaves. And

853
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, if you can unlock kind of

854
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 1: the magic and the power that's happening at that microscopic level,

855
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: who knows what you could do, right, what kind of

856
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: energies you can get, or what kinds of warp drives

857
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: or microwave ovens. Yeah, microwave toaster opens powered by artificial intelligence. Yeah,

858
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: And so I have to give a shout out to Nico.

859
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: He's one of our listeners and he heard our episode

860
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: about microwave ovens actually, and he wrote to me and

861
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: told me that they have a new fancier AI powered

862
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: microwave oven um which can heat stuff up at different

863
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: temperatures and monitor to make sure the heating is all

864
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: smooth and fancy, and actually dropped by my house and

865
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: delivered one of these prototypes, which has been a lot

866
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: of fun. That's amazing that you let one of your

867
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,439
Speaker 1: listeners into your house. Hey, he was offering a brand

868
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: new appliance, so I thought. And while he was there,

869
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: I asked him about Luke quantum gravity, but he didn't

870
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: have any ideas. Oh man, there's no setting on that

871
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: in the microwave, not yet. Um. The next in the

872
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: prototype will be quantum gravity powered, I'm sure. All right, Well,

873
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: it sounds like the answer is stay tuned. You know,

874
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: that's what we explain, what Luke. Quantum gravity is and

875
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: who knows, and maybe it is the way that the

876
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,439
Speaker 1: universe works at that level, and we may find out

877
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: in the near future. That's right, And these are the

878
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: kinds of mysteries that are going to help us figure

879
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: out the deep nature of the universe. You know. It's

880
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 1: when things break that we have an opportunity to figure

881
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: out how things should work. And so it's exciting to

882
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: have these kind of problems. It's exciting to know sort

883
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: of where to work, even if we don't know what

884
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: the answer should look like. All right, well, we hope

885
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: you enjoyed that. Daniel. How much this podcast costs me

886
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: in terms of your physics time? One loop one? Let's

887
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: tend to the minus thirty five dollars, My tend to

888
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: the minus thirty one plank dollar? Yeah, pick up plank dollar.

889
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: Oh good, I gotta I got a couple here in

890
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: my pocket. Okay. Quantum of the mover to me all right.

891
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, and

892
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: as usual, thank you to everybody who wrote in with

893
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: your questions. See you next time. Before you still have

894
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: a question after listening to all these explanations, please drop

895
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: us the line. We'd love to hear from you. You

896
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel

897
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: and Jorge That's one Word, or email us at Feedback

898
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: at Daniel and Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening and

899
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a

900
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from my

901
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio, a Apple Podcasts,

902
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.