1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's crash Course COVID nineteen vaccines versus the 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: bottom Line. I am not a scientist. Repeat, I am 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: not a scientist, but I am a user of COVID 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: nineteen vaccines. I think they're miracles and the single biggest 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: reason the pandemic wasn't more devastating. But if that perspective 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: makes you erupt, please relax. I'm focusing today on the 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: companies that produced the vaccines, not the science. And I 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: have a question. Have those amazing innovators, those life savers 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: played fairly when it comes to sharing the financial spoils 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: of their miracle drugs, and they were miracles. Just about 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: nine months after the U S went into lockdown in March, 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: the first vaccine jabs were available. There are a handful 15 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: of marquee companies that won that race, Visor by Tech, 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson and Astra Zeneca among them. But today, 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: for purposes of a lively discussion about innovation and avarice, 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: I want to focus on moderna. It will help keep 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: our conversation on point and MODERNA is a useful proxy 20 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: for examining how a groundbreaking vaccine was on earthed and 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: who got control of its uses. And to do that, 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: I've invited Dr Monica Gandhi, a leading virologist and epidemiologist 23 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: who also teaches at the University of California, San Francisco, 24 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 1: to join our podcast. Hi Monica, Hi, thank you. It's 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: great to see you and to talk to you. So, 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: first tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. How 27 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: did you end up devoting your career to battling some 28 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: of nature's most dangerous stalkers viruses? You know, Actually my 29 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: entire interest in viruses came about when I was quite young. 30 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: I was only twelve, but it was when the HIV 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: epidemic was first reported. I got fascinated by that. Yeah, 32 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: it was one June, to be exact, were the first 33 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: case reports of these devastating infections, and usually young men 34 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: who obsessed with men. It was out of the blue. 35 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: It felt horrible, And what struck me, even at that 36 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: young age, is that viruses or other bacteria or others, 37 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: fungi or others, parasites are others. There's us as humans, 38 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: and then there's pathogens. That attack us. And when you 39 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: say others, you mean like intruders exactly, intruders that come 40 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: from the outside and really have nothing to do with us. 41 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: And we have strategies, or at least have developed strategies 42 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: over the years of technologic advances to fight the other. Well, 43 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: go back on what the hook was for you. You said, 44 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, you described them as outsiders or invaders. Do 45 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: you see yourself as sort of a detective Yeah, I 46 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: like that idea. I think scientists are detectives because is 47 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: by the way, we're going to be getting more viruses 48 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: and and the planet is changing, and but it is 49 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: sort of detective work. And then it's this idea of optimism. 50 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: And I think that's what appealed to me at the 51 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: age of only twelve, is that it's optimistic to think 52 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: that we have the technologic tools and we can develop 53 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: them if we work hard enough to fight all these 54 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 1: pathogens coming our way. And I was amazed by the 55 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: optimism of infectious disease. I really have to tell you 56 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: that if you meet any infectious disease doctor, they have 57 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,119 Speaker 1: a sense of optimism. We're going to get this, we're 58 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: going to fight it, we're going to figure out how 59 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: to combat it, and that's what happened with so many viruses. 60 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: That's not a bad way to live. It's not a 61 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: bad way for you to live, a very positive way, 62 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: enjoying solving mysteries and feeling hopeful about the outcome. Helpful 63 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: exactly right. Well, so let's talk a little bit about Moderna. 64 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: It's a pretty spectacular company, right. Can you talk a 65 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: little bit about its history if you would, in the 66 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: development of m RNA vaccines, Yes, So, just to be clear, 67 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: MR and A vaccines by the way, it's not like 68 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: they're brand new. You know, a lot of people say, oh, 69 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: there was no such thing as mr anda vaccine technology. Actually, 70 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: remember we've had three major coronavirus is come out and 71 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: cause severe disease in the last twenty years. The first 72 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: one was the stars pandemic two thousand to two thousand three. 73 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: The second one was merrs. All these are coronaviruses, and 74 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: that was the time with mers that the mr and 75 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: A technology was pulled out. It was already an idea 76 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: developing that you take instead of part of a virus. 77 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: Because we all got dip theory of vaccine, tetanus vaccine 78 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: protusses vaccine, and you know what we got. We got 79 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: a piece of the protein of the virus put together 80 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: with something called it adjument, and that made us raise 81 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: an immune response. But the mr and A technology is 82 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: to give the recipe for that piece of protein, not 83 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: the protein itself, but the recipe book for you, the 84 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: human body, to make up the protein in higher levels 85 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: so that you raise really vigorous and importantly a strong 86 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: immune response. M RNA goes away, the protein goes away, 87 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: but you have that immune response to live with. And 88 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: so this was a technology that really started way before 89 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: this pandemic, in the mirrors pandemic, but we didn't need 90 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: it because Morse sort of dwindled out. I mean, we 91 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: sort of got lucky escaping stars and mirrors, right. We're 92 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: fortunate to a certain extent that stars and mirrors didn't 93 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: become what COVID nineteen became. Yes, I mean, it's really 94 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: an interesting question. I mean, they didn't spread in the 95 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: same degree before you had symptoms, so you knew, you know, 96 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: when you had stars, and then you could isolate those 97 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: individuals and then fundamentally, actually they did make people very 98 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: sick and very unfortunately, and so we could again isolate 99 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: and they just sort of dwindle. Both of them went 100 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: away without the need for vaccines. But COVID nineteen we 101 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: were never going to get away with that. And so 102 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: in the wake of Stars, this little company that calls 103 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: itself I think originally modified r n A and then 104 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: they shortened that into Moderna opens its doors up in Cambridge, Massachusetts. 105 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: Exactly not a new technology. This Maderna company started in 106 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: two thousand and ten. So you know, remember that, like 107 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: it wasn't that this is some brand new technology. We 108 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: wanted it to have a company that would be focused 109 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: for the next pandemic. As SARS went away in its own, 110 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: Where's went away on its own. The idea was, if 111 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: we ever had a pandemic, Maderna and other companies like 112 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: this would lie waiting with this novel technology. And Maderna 113 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: was doing cool things and has done cool things. How 114 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: was it looked upon or received within the both the 115 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: research community, the public health community, the greater kind of 116 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: commercial pharmaceutical community. What did people think of Moderna in 117 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: its early days? It was looked on very favorably because 118 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: it was this little company that could and it was 119 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: just really trying to work on, for example, cancer vaccines, 120 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: human metanuma virus, thinking about using this for influenza, for ours, fee, 121 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: for all these other viruses that we've been having, and 122 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: I don't have a vaccine yet. But to be honest, 123 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: it wasn't very well known. And then it was sort 124 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 1: of chugging along and chugging along, and then reality turned 125 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: it into a star in the broader idea of innovation 126 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: in the pharmaceutical world. I mean, how hard is it 127 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: to authentically innovate to really produce knockout revolutionary drugs. Actually, 128 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: this is a great question because in the history of vaccinology, 129 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: we have these kind of basic ideas, right, Like smallpox 130 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: was the first vaccine that was thought about. And what 131 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: they did, Edward Jenner, was take another virus that looked 132 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: like smallpox, vaccinia and also cow poxies are cousins of smallpox. 133 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: They're also cousins of monkey box by the way, and 134 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: put a little bit of that into humans. Put a 135 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: little bit of a related virus into humans. So that 136 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: was the first vaccine technology. And then when we went 137 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: around in time, it was like, wait, I don't want 138 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: to give you a live vaccine, you know, from even 139 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: a cousin. I don't want you to get that cousin. 140 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: So let's think about putting pieces of the virus, innocent 141 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: pieces of the virus, not the whole virus, Innocent pieces 142 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: of the virus linked together with an adjuvent. Or we'll 143 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: give you the whole virus, but we're gonna kill it, 144 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: We're gonna inactivate it, or we're gonna at least make 145 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: it very weak. And these were all the viral technologies 146 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: we had. The idea that mcderna, who started in two 147 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: thousand ten and was working on MR and A technology 148 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: two thou seventeen and then the knockout in two thousand 149 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: and twenty, the idea that we have this totally novel 150 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: vaccine technology for our next pandemic was amazing because the 151 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,599 Speaker 1: vaccines that we have work well, but we needed a 152 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: vaccine that worked really well. This is a worldwide pandemic. 153 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: Then we should, I think, probably be grateful about the 154 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: level of high quality innovation that exists within the biotechnology 155 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: and the pharmaceutical community. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, And 156 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 1: and it's rare, it's really rare to get one of 157 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: these drugs that's like a Grand Slam, A lot of 158 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: money gets poured in, a lot of research gets poured in, 159 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: but there can be misfires, right, Yeah. And actually, to 160 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: be very fair on what you said, I should say 161 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: that I've been in academia all my life. I'm an 162 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: n H funded researcher, and i know the NH very well, 163 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: and I know universities very well. But really, for knockout 164 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: products like this, we do need to work with our 165 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: biotechnology and pharmaceutical industry colleagues. Really to make immunotherapy for cancer, 166 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: to make cancer vaccines, to make a Marni vaccines, we 167 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: need a company that has the innovation and also the 168 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: funding in it and the production capacity to make products 169 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: at scale. So this is a major link that we 170 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: have between academia and industry our novel rugs, and we 171 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: need them. And and there's a third link, isn't there 172 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: the federal government and the deep, deep pockets of Uncle Sam. 173 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: Because the trajectories of these drugs are so long, the 174 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: risk in whether they'll even come to market is so high, 175 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: and the cost is so exorbitant that when companies can 176 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: a partnership with the federal government is often very useful. Right, Yes, 177 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: And it's a great question that you asked, because it's 178 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: not just the n I H that would maybe say 179 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: fund a research innovation, but it's the f d A 180 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: that helps work with companies to say, really, if you're 181 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: going to produce this, we're going to help work with you, 182 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: and we're gonna get it out quickly. We're going to 183 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: approve it more quickly. And it's also was very unprecedented. 184 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: But Operation work Speed in this setting of sarce COVID 185 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: two was really the federal government saying, okay, look, we 186 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: have a novel virus. Life has you know, ground to 187 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: a stand still worldwide. We need to get out of 188 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: vaccine quickly, and we're gonna independent funding and invest in 189 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: a private public partnership. And that was innovative. We have 190 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: to give credit to Operation Warp Speed and Moderna was 191 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: a direct beneficiary of that that the head of Operation 192 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: Warp Speed had been on Moderna's board. MODERNA got I 193 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: think around ten billion dollars in federal funding to help 194 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: it do R and D around m R and A, 195 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: and I think it had a partnership with the federal 196 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: government that lasted for at least I think four years 197 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: prior to bringing their vaccine to market. How do you 198 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: see Moderna's role during the early stages of the pandemic 199 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: When you think about the importance of MODERNA as an 200 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: entity at that time, you know, I see Maderna as 201 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: extremely important at the in the early phases of the 202 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: pandemic because everyone was rushing to make a vaccine. But 203 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: there were sort of eyes on Maderna because in two 204 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen, Madderna had developed a prototype of an 205 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: mRNA vaccine four different viruses, including human metauma virus which 206 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: causes is a sort of a respiratory viral syndrome every 207 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: winter in people. And so there had been an immediate 208 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: look at this novel technology of Maderna. To be fair, 209 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: and I'm sure that people know this history, but the 210 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: Vaccine Research Center, like you said, the federal government had 211 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: already funded Maderna and been involved in Maderna. So Barney Graham, 212 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 1: as the lead scientist at the Vaccine Research Center at 213 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: the n I AGED had been involved in the mRNA technology, 214 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: really helped co develop it. So it wasn't just a 215 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: financial relationship, it was also a research and development relationship. Definitely, 216 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: definitely a scientific relationship because Berney Graham had already written 217 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: a paper just the year before in Nature magazine that said, 218 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: if we ever have a pandemic, we have to have 219 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: the vaccine as fast as possible using novel technologies, which 220 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: was obvious. I mean, he's reflecting what we're all thinking, 221 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: is that if we get a pandemic, unlike influenza, where 222 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: there was no vaccine, it went away because fortunately a 223 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: lot of people died of the virus, it went away 224 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: on its So was the first influenza vaccine ever developed. 225 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: So it didn't go away through technology. And so we 226 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: knew from nine that this time we couldn't let her 227 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: go away through natural immunity and through more mortality. We 228 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: needed to help quell the mortality through vaccine technology. Monica, 229 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: I want to ask you more about the partnership between 230 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: MODERNA and the government. Well, let's take a quick break 231 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: from a word from one of our sponsors, and we'll 232 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: jump into some of the patent battles when we return. Okay, So, 233 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: Dr Monica Gandhi and I were just talking about the 234 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: relationship between the federal government and pharmaceutical companies, and the 235 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: federal government and MODERNA specifically as being one of those 236 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: useful private public partnerships that helps bring things to market 237 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: more quickly and ideally with better outcomes. And Darren is 238 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: sort of the post your child for an outcome like that, 239 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: isn't it Monica? Yes, because close ties between the n 240 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: i H and Maderna R mad had developed a novel 241 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: technology with the help of the NH and the Vaccine 242 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: Research Center at the NH with Barney Graham, and it 243 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: was almost poised to be the company that brought us 244 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: the vaccine for COVID. Do you recall where you were 245 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: or how you heard about the idea that there was 246 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: going to be a popularly available vaccine that could not 247 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen off of its heels. Oh, I remember very 248 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: rough because even though December eleven was the first u 249 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: A for the vaccine in the United States that was 250 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: through FISER, November nine was the first time that we 251 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: got the results from FISER and November sixteen was the 252 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: first day that we got the results from Maderna. This 253 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: is two thousand twenty. I was thrilled the results were profound, 254 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: just this incredible level of protection against automatic COVID with 255 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: both of these mr and A vaccine products. A lot 256 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: of talking to the press around that time, just I 257 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: was sort of really very excited and very thrilled. I 258 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: just couldn't believe it was so fast. November nine after 259 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: March eleven, that's less than nine months. It's amazing. Eight 260 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: months ago we got the results, nine months we got 261 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: the product to you. When people used to talk about 262 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: drug development taking years, right exactly, I just I couldn't 263 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: believe it. I felt like it was a day like 264 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: going back to my history and why I was so 265 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: interested in virology, where everything was full of hope, everything 266 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: turned around. It was that optimism and we got it. 267 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: That's all I cared about. Well, and you know, you 268 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: mentioned the influenza epidemic of a century before and how 269 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: they just basically waited it out and had to let 270 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: the bodies pile up because they lacked the science. They 271 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: lacked the innovation then to be able to combat it. 272 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: And that is a hallmark of progress in our era, 273 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: isn't it? Thinks Actually, I mean I have also because 274 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in infectious disease. I've really read a 275 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: lot about a history of infectious disease. Prior to the 276 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: development of new technologies, we had to wait everything out, 277 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: and we waited it out through misery and through death 278 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: and suffering. And the same was true of HIV at 279 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: the beginning of the pandemic, before we got the novel 280 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: and treach of our therapies. It was terrible, but we 281 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: didn't have that technology. And I don't know about other industries. 282 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure this people think the same thing and energy 283 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: and other things. But I knew that we can never 284 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: have another pandemic again where we didn't have technology waiting 285 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: in the woods to essentially control it. Otherwise the death 286 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: and suffering would have been much much more. We have 287 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: had almost seven million deaths from COVID nine team worldwide. 288 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: That is unacceptable, but it is so much less than 289 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: we would have had. You know, there was this very 290 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: spirited debate around a lot of the different drugs and 291 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: vaccines that came onto the market during the early days 292 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: of COVID, around whether or not they were fast fairly 293 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: and whether or not everyone had the access to those 294 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: drugs that needed them, And it sort of became this 295 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: interesting discussion about both innovation and I think miracles and 296 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: avarice and overreach and justice. Yeah, and I wonder if 297 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: you have any thoughts about how you think about that 298 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: around any of the big pharma companies or the small innovators. Well, 299 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: this is a great question because I'm really a student 300 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: of HIV history in the sense that I grew up 301 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: thinking about HIV a lot. And when you look at 302 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: the history of HIV, there were incredible innovations in HIV 303 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: which were really the anti viral therapeutics that were developed 304 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: and disseminated in the US and Europe. By in the meantime, 305 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: HIV was raging in Sub Saharan Africa and India and 306 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: Eastern Europe and other places that actually didn't have access 307 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: to these medications, and it became a global and very 308 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: visible fight and advocacy from the HV community, from scientists, 309 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: from clinicians, from researchers, from patients that said, wait, how 310 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: can we save the lives of only one group of 311 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: people when we have novel technology and not that saved 312 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: the lives of a whole other group of people because 313 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: they live in lower income nations. And the two thousand 314 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: International AIDS meeting, which is in Durban, South Africa, it 315 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: was just fiery and it was all protest. It was 316 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: people from the U S and Europe saying I'm not 317 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: taking these medications until my brothers in South Africa can 318 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: get these medications. It was very, very vocal and very visible. 319 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: We were horrified that the innovations would not be given 320 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: to low incombinations. Well, generally, how do the drug companies 321 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: respond to protests like this or criticism of them about 322 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: the availability and access to their drugs? So sometimes very 323 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: ignore the communities, and then sometimes they're very responsive. So 324 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: what happened is the year two thousand when the International 325 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: AIDS meeting was drowned out by the Dinner protest. Really 326 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: what happened is that Fiser at the time was making 327 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: a very cheap medication called flu connisol, which would combat 328 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: cryptococ commeningitist, which is a very high mortality opportunistic confection 329 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: in AIDS, and they made a billion dollars in the 330 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: year two thousand from flu connisole. And it just seemed 331 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: unconsciousable that we'd have this very cheap drug that should 332 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: be could be made by generic companies and marketed to 333 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: the rest of the planet, and Fiser was making that 334 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: much money. And they did respond, and there was a 335 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: process that occurred through the World Trade Organization, the w 336 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: t O called the trips waiver, and what the w 337 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: t O meant at the time is that if we're 338 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: in the middle of a massive global health emergency, patents 339 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: may not matter to the same degree as they would 340 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: and we may have to waive those patents through the 341 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: trips waiver to a allow companies in South Africa and 342 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: India and kind of middle resource nations to get the 343 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: formula and to make these medications more cheaply and to 344 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: give them out to low income resource nations. And that 345 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: really occurred as a result of HIV and equity. You 346 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: bring up patents, which is another sort of leg of 347 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: the stool and watching I think how pharmaceutical companies protect 348 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: their research, protect their products, but also protect their bottom line. 349 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of patent battles that occur 350 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: in the pharmaceutical world. Patent trolling is a big thing 351 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: in big pharma. Talk a little bit about that. How 352 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: much of the patent battles are over really legitimate claims 353 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: to intellectual property, and how many of them are anti 354 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: competitive or are simply used to sort of protect something 355 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: that might have a more generic use. So to be fair, 356 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: the reason that patents came about, obviously is that the 357 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: company would say, you know, we need to make money 358 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: off of our products because put in a lot of 359 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: research and development into our product, and that comes money. 360 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: In this case, of course, the operation Workspeed had invested 361 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: ten billion dollars from the US federal government into the 362 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: Maderna vaccine. But under more normal circumstances where we're not 363 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: in the middle of a global health emergency, usually it 364 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: is the company itself that's come up with that money. 365 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: And the point of protecting patents is to say, we 366 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: need to spend some time and tell the medication naturally 367 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: becomes generic, because after a certain amount of time, every 368 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: medication is allowed to be made by generic manufacturers. The 369 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: companies would say, it's we need this patent to protect 370 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: our profit and I do understand that again under normal circumstances, 371 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: but these aren't normal circumstances. Well and moderna there's even 372 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: an extra little twist in all of it, because what 373 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: did it do after it engage in this sort of 374 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: mutually effective and profitable partnership with the federal government to 375 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: develop a vaccine, bring it to market, and start to 376 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: reap the financial gain of that, including a skyrocketing stock price. 377 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: It began to threaten the federal government with a lawsuit. 378 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: It said it was going to take the government to 379 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: court under the claim that it had soul rights to 380 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: the patents around its COVID nineteen vaccine right right. So 381 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: that was a very surprising day because not only had 382 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: the government invested from Operation Warp Speed into Maderna, and 383 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: not only had the government, through the Vaccine Research Center 384 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: at the NIH, helped contribute to the technology scientifically with 385 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: Dr Graham and his research associates, but finally the government 386 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: had actually agreed to give Maderna and Feiser the money 387 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: and pay for the COVID vaccines because we're in the 388 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: middle of a global health emergency and a US public 389 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: health emergency. So instead of people having to get this 390 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: through their insurance, we made this vaccine widely available in 391 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: pharmacies for everyone, whether they have insurance or not, undocumented immigrants, 392 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. You can go and get it at a pharmacy. 393 00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: But how can you go and get it a pharmacy 394 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: because a government purchased these vaccines from Maderna. So to me, 395 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: I was shocked because it seemed like Maderna had had 396 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: plenty of investment from the federal government and I mean 397 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: the whole idea of the intellectual property from Dr Graham 398 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: was ignored and they sued the federal government. And I 399 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: will just tell you as someone who's NIH funded, I 400 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: would be on calls and people at the n H 401 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: were very frustrated and shocked. Well, Moderna ultimately backed away 402 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: from those legal threats, but they, you know, they also 403 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: had interesting arguments. You know, when Moderna would be sued, 404 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: they would argue on occasion that the federal government had 405 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: to defend the lawsuit because it was the federal government's product. 406 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: But when it came to this patent battle, they wanted 407 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: to claim it as their own. Doesn't seem like they 408 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: can have it both ways though, there, you know, right, 409 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: And I think Moderna was also sued Visor and bion 410 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: Tech for patent infringement, and Moderna itself has been sued 411 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: by other competitors. It becomes this big tangle of patent 412 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: battles that can often obscure or you know, what people 413 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: want out of the drugs themselves and how to bring 414 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: them to market effectively. Yes, I think it makes the 415 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: company's look really greedy, like you said, because actually both 416 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: Madonna Adviser have made a lot of money during the pandemic, 417 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: and it makes them look like they're not responding to 418 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,239 Speaker 1: equity concerns about how we give these vaccines to low 419 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: income countries, and it just it's not like we're not 420 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: going to use these products. But it did frankly leave 421 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people in the scientific community called. Okay, 422 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: I think we should take one more break here and 423 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: um when we get back, I want to talk about 424 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: the effect that moderna has overreach has had bringing vaccines 425 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: to the rest of the world, and that will come 426 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: up after these ads. We're back with Dr Monica Gandhi, who, 427 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: by the way, you can pre order her new book, Endemic, 428 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: a post pandemic Playbook. It will be published this summer. 429 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: I will be an eager reader, as I'm sure many 430 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: other people will be. My Nica. We were talking just 431 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: before the break about these internet signed patent battles in 432 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: the US and Western Europe, primarily I guess some parts 433 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: of Asia over control of vaccines. But what are those 434 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: sort of battles ultimately mean for low income to moderate 435 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: income countries, primarily those in the southern hemisphere where they 436 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: lack the public health infrastructure and the private public partnerships 437 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: to deliver these kind of drugs to their own citizens. 438 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: What do these battles mean for them? So it means that, 439 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, residents of those nations lose out, and it's 440 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: really unfair. So to just clearly lay this out. India 441 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: and South Africa had not really suffered from COVID that 442 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: much by October of because we still hadn't gotten into 443 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: the new variants essentially, but there was an anticipation that 444 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: we would have new variants. We'd already had one called 445 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: D six fourteen G and so they were smart enough 446 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: to say, well, just because we've been relatively spared so far, 447 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: it's not like we're not going to need these vaccines. 448 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: We see the writing on the wall. You're developing these vaccines, 449 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: and they wrote a letter. Indian South Africa wrote a 450 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: letter to the World Trade Organization in October saying something 451 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: bad could happen, we could get a new variant. It's 452 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: not like we're going to get through this without vaccines, 453 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: and please invoke the trips waiver to ask Maderna and 454 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: fiser or who are developing these vaccines. And we got 455 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,479 Speaker 1: the data just a month later to waive the patent, 456 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: so that we can make these m RNI vaccines in 457 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: our nations, and why is it Indian South Africa because 458 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: they basically have the ability to make these vaccines. They're 459 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: kind of middle resource countries. They have already shown that 460 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 1: they can make gantredge of our therapies and other medications. 461 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: They had the technical capability. They said, please invoke the 462 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: trips waiver to the w t O so that we 463 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: can make the vaccines as soon as they're ready. W 464 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,239 Speaker 1: T I said no, And in the meantime we had 465 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: an election and Maderna and Fiser wrote letter to President 466 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: Biden assumed as he was elected and said, you know 467 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: that letter from India and South Africa, that's a really 468 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: bad idea. Don't do it. And so unfortunately Biden for 469 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: a while did not actually support the trips waiver, and 470 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: we got well into some very bad times, specifically the 471 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: delta variant in India with a four percent vaccination rate 472 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: in March. And then why did the w t say no? 473 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: Because you really do need support from the world community. 474 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: It is the World Trade Organization and fundamentally it is 475 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: partially dependent on G nine nations and eventually, I hope, 476 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: would hope G twenty saying these high incombinations supporting the 477 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: trips waiver because obviously these nations are getting pushed back 478 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: from the company saying don't do it, and they did, 479 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: and so it's almost like the World Trade Organization cannot 480 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: work in isolation from these high income countries, and they 481 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: weren't getting support from high income countries either Germany, which 482 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: was the place of buy in tech, nor the United States, 483 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: which was the place of maderna um. What do you 484 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: think of the argument that if there are taxpaired dollars involved, 485 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: and there are private financings of drug development, that the 486 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: initial benefits, the initial harvesting of those gains should stay 487 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: within the country that financed it. I think that was 488 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: typically an argument that came out that the politicians and 489 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: private companies wanted to make sure their own citizens were 490 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: fully inoculated before any shipments went to other countries. You know, 491 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 1: what I would say about that is that that in 492 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: general could make sense to me if this wasn't a 493 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: highly transmissible respiratory virus where high rates of transmission occurring 494 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: in other countries with low rates of immunity will affect 495 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: us here in the United States. The Delta variant that 496 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: we do not know exactly where it emerged was first 497 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: identified in India. The omicron variant we don't know where 498 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: to emerge was first identified in South Africa. How interesting 499 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: that it was those two countries who were begging the 500 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: w t O for vaccines. And the reason that I 501 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: say that is we are all affected by global health. 502 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: That's the thing about a highly infectious pathogen. That it 503 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: mattered that India had a terrible delta variant surge because 504 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: it came here and we quickly also had a bad 505 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: delta variant surge in places who were under vaccinated. In 506 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: the United States, places with low rates of vaccine, we 507 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: had plenty of vaccines. It was just that some states 508 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: didn't have the uptake that we were hoping for by 509 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: the time Delta hit our shores in July and it 510 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: affected us. It affected our hospitals, and it may not 511 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: have if we had thought together as a global health community, 512 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: what happens there matters here in the United States. Viruses 513 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: don't carry passports or think about borders. Do they exactly 514 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: exactly we do different. Maybe we should think about what 515 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: you just said. For rhumat logic diseases, cancer diseases, things 516 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: that are not highly infectious and contagious. This was a 517 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: global health emerg and see I think what happened in 518 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: it was tragic in terms of global vaccine equity and 519 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: and pandemics remind us at least when it comes to 520 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: public health. But I think there's other areas in which 521 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: it's true too that we are authentically a global community 522 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: that we can't really turn our backs on one another's 523 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: can we yes right now? Good example, the JUG Show 524 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: on January five had a press conference where they look 525 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: like they wanted to declare this pandemic over because things 526 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: were going so much better in every country but China, 527 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: and because things are not going that well in China 528 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: right now. We are linked to China. We are absolutely 529 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: linked to everyone is and the global pandemic will not 530 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: be declared over. Intel China can get through what they're 531 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: getting through right now with lower rates of vaccination than 532 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: they likely should have had before they massively opened up MO. 533 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: Darn Is is interesting in that context because they made 534 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: a patent pledge and they said that in the early 535 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: stages of the pandemic that they essentially wouldn't enforce what 536 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: they believe to be their legal patent claims against MANU 537 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: actors in developing countries. If other local manufacturers decided to 538 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: use Mo Danna's technology to solve these viral problems in 539 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: their own country, Danna would essentially look the other way. 540 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: And that's a pretty unusual and generous, publicly spirited posture 541 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: to take, isn't it. Yes, the day that happened, there 542 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: was a lot of love towards Maderna. So you can 543 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: say something, but if you don't follow through, it's not 544 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: like scientists, you know, won't remember this in the next 545 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: pandemic and you want to really follow through on. To me, 546 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't even totally feel like generosity in the sense 547 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: that I think in terms of profit, Madonna really made 548 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: a profit and will continue to make profit. I think 549 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: it was more something that was holding true to their 550 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: obligations that they got a lot of external funding and 551 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: we were in the middle of a global health emergency 552 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: and they should have played balmar. So did you not 553 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: take their patent pledget face value? Do you think it 554 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: was a way to a late criticism them or was 555 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: it a legitimate positive step forward? You know, I have 556 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: to say that everyone was writing around that time. I 557 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: wrote a piece and Time magazine in March when I 558 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: was watching what was going on in India that said 559 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: please step up both the governments of G nine to 560 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: work on the trips waiver and also Madonna advisor and 561 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: I wrote a couple of pieces in other places at 562 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: that time. So they were getting a lot of pressure 563 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: around that time because it became revealed that letter that 564 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: they had written to President Biden where they said, please 565 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: ignore what India and South Africa asked for. We don't 566 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,239 Speaker 1: think that's good in terms of profit. That letter had 567 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: been you know, I don't know what happened, but it's 568 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: somehow gotten the public space. So people were looking to Maderna. 569 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: So when they said that, I think everyone was very happy. 570 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: But we're now what we're almost two years past that 571 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: point in March, and we don't have these you know, 572 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: sort of freely being made in other countries for distributions. 573 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: So the vaccines that we're getting in some of our 574 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: countries right now, China doesn't have massive production of MRNTI vaccine. 575 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: It has a vaccine, but it doesn't have the same vaccine. 576 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: And this vaccine works well, it really works well, you know, 577 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: in the same way that patents and the bottom line 578 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: get in the way of developing countries getting access to 579 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: drugs they need. Even in developed countries, the pricing sometimes 580 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: can be so exorbitant that certain drugs can be out 581 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: of reach of citizens, even in the countries in which 582 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: the drugs are developed. And pharma companies have often said, 583 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: our pricing is a reflection of the time it takes 584 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: to develop a drug and the massive investment we need 585 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: to make into that development. But they're also not very 586 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: transparent about actually sort of showing their costs and showing 587 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: their processes to substantiate that completely, are they yes. So, 588 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: for example, there was a statement made that these m 589 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: RTI vaccines really hard to make, but the ceremon Institute 590 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: in India had already claimed in October when they wrote 591 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: the w U TiO we don't think they're very hard, 592 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: and we really have the technology, we have the institute, 593 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: we have the factory, we can do it. And so 594 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: there's this statement made that they're so hard, but you 595 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: really need the recipe, you really need the patent to 596 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: look at so you can see if they can make it. 597 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: That was an excuse used for antirectoral therapy. But once 598 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: India started making natural therapy for the world. The trajectory 599 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: of the world changed in HIV oh by the way, 600 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: India violated the patent and they sort of the drug 601 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: companies look the other way. Why did they look the 602 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: other way in that case, because again the international pressure 603 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: was so loud at that point. Sub Saharan Africa is 604 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: really always been the epicenter of the HIV pandemic. This 605 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: very visible meeting had just happened that the International AIDS 606 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 1: conference in Durban, and it just would have looked so 607 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: bad for the pharmaceutical companies to sue South Africa for 608 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: buying these drugs from India, or to sue India to 609 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: making the drugs that they just complaining and uh and 610 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: these drugs they were part of the pep FAR program. 611 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: The pep FAR program the President's Emergency Plan for Age 612 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: Relief formed under President Bush and he and program going 613 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: forward really led to a mass dissemination event. Director of 614 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 1: out Therapy worldwide, but it was using the cheap drugs 615 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: made in India. So how do we resolve this collision 616 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: between innovation and avarice? Is it resolvable? Is it a 617 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: collision that ultimately has positive results? Is it one in 618 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,879 Speaker 1: your mind that is always going to be a little 619 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 1: bit scarred. How do you think about that? I always 620 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: think of that whatever you do comes back to you. 621 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: I mean we say this in human beings, like if 622 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,919 Speaker 1: we behave unselfishly, you know a lot of that kind 623 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: of rewards come back to you. I have no doubt 624 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 1: that companies in the middle of a global health emergency, 625 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: because there are high incominations, will always make profit. If 626 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: they make something innovative to combat that pandemic. I think 627 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,399 Speaker 1: they will always make profit. But what will come back 628 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: to them is an incredible feeling of goodwill, of more 629 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: scientific input, of more money into their company, of more 630 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: interactions with the federal government if they behave more nobly 631 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: and with less average to try to help control the 632 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: epidemic and to provide global vaccine equity to these medications. 633 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: So good example the two antivirals moment, pair of Air 634 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: and pax Lovid, those companies of which one was Fighter 635 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: and one was Mark. Immediately when they made their antiviral products, 636 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: worked with the medicine's patent pool and said we're gonna 637 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: make these available in low income countries. We're gonna give 638 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: our formula out we're not even gonna do what Maderna 639 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: did on the public stage and make it look like 640 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: we're not going to give out the formula for these 641 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: to be made in low resource settings. And they did that, 642 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 1: and there was an incredible amount of goodwill towards them. 643 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: And then what does that do That makes the federal 644 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: government buy a lot of packs LOVID doses for the 645 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: US population. They made a lot of money. It's always 646 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: going to come back to them, I think, And so 647 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: try to behave well for the public. Shaming occurs, yes, 648 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 1: exactly exactly, but Viser came out looking good in terms 649 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: of paxilovin. So tell me, what have you learned from 650 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: watching Modanna and some of the other vaccine wizards during 651 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,439 Speaker 1: the COVID crisis. You know, you're the smartie, I said 652 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: at the top of the show. I'm not a scientist. 653 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: You're the scientist. So probably there's less in all of 654 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: this that is a learning moment for you. But I 655 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: was really curious about anything that you might have learned 656 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: from all of us. I mean, one thing I have 657 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 1: learned is just to go back to something we said 658 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 1: at the beginning, I think this technology, whatever you think 659 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: about it, because of course there's been misinformation and there's 660 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: been some kind of back and forth about the safety 661 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: these vaccines. I actually think that these vaccines have been miraculous, 662 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: and the reason they've been so miraculous is they make 663 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: really high levels of proteins. So when I think about 664 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: older people, amy no compromised individuals like the patients I 665 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: take care of living with HIV, I want them to 666 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: have the MR and a vaccine because such high levels 667 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: of protein are made, such a vigorous immune responses made 668 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: that though we can't prevent all infection severe disease, there's 669 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: an incredible protection against severe disease. So this is not 670 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: a technology we should ever, you know, not use. I 671 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: think it's going to be used in in the future 672 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: if we have a new pathogen. So what I would 673 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: say is that don't give up in the emory technology, 674 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,399 Speaker 1: don't give up in these companies. Maderna. Should I hope 675 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: start working better together with both the legacy of what 676 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: happened from the NIH. Now Dr Graham has actually retired. 677 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: He wanted to retire before, but he was in the 678 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: middle of a pandemic, so he has now retired. The 679 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: NIH should always be your friend if you are an 680 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 1: innovative drug company, so work well with the NH dropped 681 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: the patent against Fiser. These are vaccines that have been 682 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: again in existence for a while and it was not 683 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: like Fiser went to Maderna and stole anything. And that 684 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: will also look good if they drop that and express 685 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,919 Speaker 1: some generosity. So express some degree of willingness in terms 686 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 1: of low resource countries being able to make these India 687 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: and South Africa, and then the next pandemic we're going 688 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: to turn to Maderna. Well, I could keep talking to 689 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: you for another hour. This was a great conversation. Thanks 690 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: for joining us today, Monica, Thank you so much. Really 691 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: great questions and conversation and really relevant for the future. 692 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 1: You can follow Dr Monica Gandhi on Twitter at Monica 693 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: Gandhi nine, and you can preorder her book Endemic, a 694 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: post Pandemic Playbook, which will be published this summer. Here 695 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: at crash Course, we believe the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, 696 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,760 Speaker 1: surprising and always instructive. In today's Crash Course, I learned 697 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: that pharmaceutical companies can be innovative and great, and they 698 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 1: can also be good if they just put the bottom 699 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,800 Speaker 1: line aside for a little while, sometimes, especially during a 700 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: public health emergency. What did you learn? We'd love to 701 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: hear from you. You can tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion, 702 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: handle at Opinion or me at Tim O'Brien using the 703 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 1: hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also subscribe to our 704 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: show wherever you're listening right now and leave us a review. 705 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: It helps more people find the show. This episode was 706 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: produced by the indispensable Anna Mazarakas and me. Our supervising 707 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and we had editing help from 708 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 1: Katie Boys, Jeff Grocott, Mike Nitza, and Christine Vanden. By large. 709 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: Blake Maples does our sound engineering, and our original theme 710 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: song was composed by Luis Gara. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll 711 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: be back next week with another Crash Course.