WEBVTT - Oliver Darcy 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.200 Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.160 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:08.559 today's best minds. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:10.680 We're on vacation with that doesn't mean we don't have 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.280 a great show for you Today. Author John Gans examines 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 how we got to our present political moment. But first 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:18.840 we'll talk to Status News Oliver Darcy about the changing 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:20.200 media landscape. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.120 Welcome to Fast Politics, Oliver Darcy. 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:25.959 Thank you, Molly. I'm excited to be here. 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:29.159 I wanted to have you on the podcast because I 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:33.640 read your newsletter every day. Status Well, thank you, You're welcome. 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:38.680 You are a really smart media reporter and also, you know, 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:41.159 a lovely human being. But I spent a lot of 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.640 time thinking about the media, and not just because I 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:49.080 love to think about myself, but because you know, we 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.560 are heading into Trump two point zero and the media 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.200 is really one of the last checks and balances we 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:57.960 have left. So can you just paint with a broad 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:00.400 brush what the media looks like right now? 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:04.280 Well, unfortunately it's not in the best shape. And the 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.360 broadest way to describe it is I think there are 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:10.720 a number of outlets either facing financial or business struggles, 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.600 and then there are other outlets that are facing editorial struggles, 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.400 and then their outlets, perhaps like the Los Angeles Times, 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:22.960 facing both editorial and financial struggles, and so unfortunately at 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.080 a time I think when the fourth estate you would 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:28.240 want it to be the strongest, in a very strong position, 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.920 it's actually quite vulnerable. And you're seeing that in different signs. 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.520 I guess our symptoms are appearing every day, whether it's 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.880 Joe and Mika maybe going down to Malongo to kiss 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:43.160 the ring, or whether it's Jeff Bezos and Patrick Sunchion, 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.640 you know, having blocked their newspapers for making endorsements, or 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:52.760 whether it's CNN putting dishonest MAGA voices like Scott Jennings 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.200 on the air. I think you're seeing throughout the landscape 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:00.240 troubling signs as Donald Trump prepares to has sent to 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:02.320 the Oval office once again. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.320 So there are a number of things happening. One is financial. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.399 These media companies are having a hard time making money. 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:15.280 Some of that is because tech companies have really put 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.359 them in an impossible spot. 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.799 Right, yes, one hundred percent, so talk to us about that. 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:26.400 For a long time. Obviously, these media companies were fueled 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:30.400 by advertiser dollars and right now in twenty twenty four, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.440 advertisers can generally get a lot more bang for their 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:38.000 buck by advertising with either Google or Meta because they 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.320 allow for extreme targeting. Right if you go on Instagram, 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.480 you will get ads targeted specifically to you, like it's 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.080 actually quite wild. You don't even want to spend money, 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.320 and you get these ads that are like, you know, 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.120 and I'm thinking, I'm getting these ads and I'm like, 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.280 I didn't even know this product exists, but this looks 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.360 like it was built specifically for me. And that targeting 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.960 is really alluding to these advertise And so you've seen 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.560 all that ad money that used to maybe be spent 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.400 in the you know, glossy pages of Vogue or people 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.200 used to advertise on in different number of different areas. 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.560 You've seen a lot of the advertising dollars go to 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.840 the duopoly of Google and Meta, and that's put a 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:21.160 lot of financial pressure on publishers. And you've seen newspapers 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:23.560 go under. You know, they really can't make ends meet anymore, 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.480 whether that's the local newspapers that are in the communities, 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.200 because a lot of small businesses now rather spend their 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.799 money online versus in the local paper or whether that's 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.520 on the national level where you're seeing papers like the 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:38.800 Los Angeles Times or the Washington Post really really struggle 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.040 to make ends meet, and a large part of that 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.480 is because of the advertising environment. It's not friendly to them. 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.480 I want you to explain sort of what is left 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:51.080 in the media sort of world now, like what it 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:59.360 looks like for newspapers, magazines, and news more generally on television. 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.720 So I think on the local level, we just it 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:06.960 cannot be underscored enough how decimated the local news environment 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:09.480 is a lot of communities no longer have a paper. 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.200 They're relying maybe on a TV station to cover the news, 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:14.880 and a lot of those are owned by Sinclaire, which 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.320 is another story. And so in the local level it's 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.360 just really terrible. And so hopefully someone can figure out 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:22.599 a way to make this work, but right now it's 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.120 not so good. On the national level, you're seeing a 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:29.040 lot of these one time giants shrink, you know, year 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.520 after year, and so La Conde and Asks is a 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.040 good example. You know that that company has has continued 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.040 to shrink over the years. It was once this huge 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.360 behemoth and now it's it's you know, every other It 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.680 feels like every few months they're doing some sort of layoffs, 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:45.960 and they're trying to figure out how to transition from 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.360 a print business to a digital business with a digital 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.159 ad environment not being good. I think a good example, 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.680 I guess is Vox Media, which owns New York Magazine, 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.280 but also the Verge ear some of these other Internet brands. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.280 You're you're seeing Jim Bankoff, who's the CEO over there, 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.240 really look for other revenue streams, whether and generally this 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.000 is becoming a subscription subscription play where they're asking people 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.279 to subscribe directly to their publications. It's not great, I 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.720 guess on the national level either, where these big publishers 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.240 are shrinking and really struggling to I guess, to stay 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.680 alive and find revenue streams that are while. And then 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.720 on the television side, there's another whole issue, which is 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:31.400 that these also one time giants are facing an existential 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.400 threat in that people are cutting the cord. Every single year, 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.040 millions of Americans are cutting the cord. And what does 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.560 that mean. That means that the revenue stream these these 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.440 cable companies, in particular cable news companies are fueled in 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.120 part by Cape or mostly by cable carriage fees. Their 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:52.120 business model is collapsing underneath them, and less people are 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.039 watching them, so that means less advertiser dollars because every 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.200 time someone cuts the cord, there goes another potential person 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.200 you can meet with advertising dollars. And so a company 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:05.240 like CNN or MSNBC or even Fox News, and then 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:08.719 also there's just a linear channels like ABC News, NBC News. 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:13.080 They're all losing audience, and so the game really has 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.680 become not whether you can grow your audience, but how 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:18.840 you can hold on to the audience you have long 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:22.920 enough to transition to a digital play that will work. 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.120 And of course, as we just discussed on digital, there 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.159 are all these problems because the advertising market's not great either. 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.320 So really what it's coming down to, I think for 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:35.560 all of these players is how to compel reader's viewers 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:39.520 to pay for direct to consumer subscriptions. And I think 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.919 at some point it's going to be challenging because people 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.760 will only pay for a subscription to so many things. Right, 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.440 you have a Netflix account, you might have an Hbo account, 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.800 you might have a New York Times subscription, But how 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:53.760 many subscriptions can you convince people to pay for before 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:54.760 they're just over it. 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:59.360 Yes, I'm wondering, like when we think about people are 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:04.160 on line watching news, right, They're watching it in clips, 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:08.160 they're watching it in the guy with the beanie aggregating 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:12.400 the news. They're watching news like they want news. It's 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.040 just that cable companies have not figured out how to 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.000 get it to them. Is that correct? 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.240 I think that's partly right in that, like, yes, there 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.960 are models for news and commentary that are certainly working online. 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.560 I think the issue is these cable companies were making 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.840 so much money molly off of these cable carriage fees, 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.760 and so they have They are very large, They have 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.440 large workforces to maintain, you know, like CNN basically has 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:43.400 a standing army of journalists around the world, something like 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.640 four thousand journalists in the workforce. They're just stationed across 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.680 the world and they're all getting paid whether they go 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.840 on air or not. Right, And you might be able 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.160 to find a model where like let's say, like a 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:57.320 Kaitlin Collins, you know, can have a let's say five 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:00.520 ten million dollar business built around her, but that's not 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.280 going to supplant or dig you out of the hole. 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.200 For a billion dollar company. You know, if CNN is 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.320 making let's say eight hundred million dollars a year right now, 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.720 maybe seven hundred and it was making over a billion, 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.400 you know during the Trump years under a former chief 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.840 Jeff Zucker, you know, that's that's a profit. And so 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.080 even if you can build like a ten million dollar 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.880 business around Kaitlin Collins and a ten million dollar business 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:28.760 around Anderson Cooper doing something on streaming, that is nowhere 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.760 near the profit margin these companies have been operating, and 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:36.959 so then they need to dramatically downsize. And as they downsize, 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.400 there goes a lot of the reporting that they that 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.800 they're paying for. And so the trick I think really 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.840 is I think you're seeing this with Mark Thompson at CNN, 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.880 is he knows that he needs to really slim down CNN, 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.400 get it much much leaner and focused on digital. And 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.199 the reality is for these companies to survive, they're all 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.160 going to have to get a lot smaller, and that's 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.640 going to be very, very painful over the next few years. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.800 So I guess the question is, yes, there is a 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.720 way to get news out to people in in a 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.320 profitable way online, It's just not going to replace the 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.640 profits that these companies have been making and so you're 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.360 going to have to cut a lot of journalists in 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:12.920 the process. 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.440 Yes, for sure. One of the things that happened in 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.160 the nineties, And again I am, I want to say 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.840 a victim of the nineties because that was when I 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:25.400 started working, and that's when I came of age, which 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.599 makes me sound old, But what I saw in the 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:32.400 nineties was all of these newspapers and magazines and then 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:36.400 the Internet, and that they could not make the jump, right. 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:38.760 They just couldn't figure out how to make the jump, 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.560 and so they didn't and so ultimately what happened was 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:44.840 they were kind of shrunk and they were kind of 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:49.000 replaced by things that were not as good or not 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:53.920 as fulsome but in some ways they were. So can 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.400 you sort of like go along with me and try 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:00.800 to think of ways in which these news comeanies. Isn't 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.960 there like a way to sort of make this work 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.240 or you think it's really just not suited. 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:09.960 I think there's a way to make news work. I'm 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.920 bullish on that. I mean, I definitely think there's a 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.320 way to make news work. I just think that the 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:20.480 current you know, the current dinosaurs, if you will, because 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.599 they're large and they're old, are probably not going to 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:26.720 make it into the next age in the same way, right, 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.720 And so whether that's the old magazine publishers and losing 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.160 a lot of glamour there, or whether that's the cable 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.280 news companies and some of these big newspapers, like, it's 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.439 going to be really tough. I think the Times, the 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:40.559 New York Times, has done a really good job of 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:45.600 offering a very polished premium offering that adds a lot 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.680 of value to people's lie and offers great reporting. I 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.480 think that the issue too, though, to some extent, is 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:56.280 how many New York Times is do you need? Right, Molly, 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:58.960 if you subscribe to the New York Times, now, do 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.040 you really need another one? Do you want to pay 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.480 for three or four New York Times is? I don't know. 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.160 And so you know, because The Times has sort of 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.679 taken up the market there, and it's possible that maybe 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:14.440 like CNN could offer a very differentiated product with with 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.439 live video around the world that would be interesting. Maybe 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.280 that would be a differentiation enough for you just to 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.240 pay for it. But I think that's the challenge as well, 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.840 Like there are only so many subscriptions. I think people 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.360 will pay for and maybe there can be some bundling 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:30.320 in the future, maybe like at some point we see 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:33.480 the Newer Times in Journal and CNN bundle, or maybe 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:35.800 CNN and the New York Times get together. I think 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.840 there's gonna be more consolidation that happens because there's too much, 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.319 just too many offerings, and it's people are going to 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.240 be fatigued. And I also just continue to think that 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.680 these massive companies are going to have to slim down 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.840 dramatically just to survive. And that's not to say, like, 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:56.320 look like as these companies also slim down, other things 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.920 will grow, Right, So you have newer companies like Pop 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.760 or Axios or these newer age companies that pop up 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.520 and maybe fill a little bit of that void. But 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.200 as as technology progresses, things are disrupted, and I think 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:14.959 we're just continuing to live through that, right. 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:21.400 No, agreed, And like there definitely are certainly opportunities to 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:26.440 rethink the business model, and you've done that really well, 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.840 So talk to me about how you've done that well. 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.160 I think if we go back to this a second 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.240 as well, I think you know, there are a lot 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.880 of companies, again, the big ones that have a lot 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.920 of people there and and whether like CNN goes to 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.920 air in South Korea or you know, and where they 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.360 have someone's station or where they have you know, whether 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.959 they go to air in Africa where they have probably 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.440 someone's station, or maybe they have people station all across 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.320 the world, and a lot of those people if they're 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.080 not going on air, I think that you know they're 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.560 they're gonna mean, they're obviously getting paid regardless. And I 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.080 think that if you're someone like Mark Thompson, you have 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.480 to figure out how to get them to create content 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:06.640 every single day, even if it doesn't go to air 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.440 and adds something of value, because if you're adding something 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.360 of value, people will I think, pay for it. And 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.679 that's what I've seen with my own company status is 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.360 every single day I wake up and I'm trying to 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.440 add value. I'm trying to tell you something you don't know, 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.200 to give you pieces of information that you were unaware 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.560 of before. Because I think that when you have a 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.520 strong product like that that tells people, it informs people, 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.640 it's interesting to read, they will pay for it. It's 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.800 just a matter of doing that on a consistent basis. 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.760 I also think as well that you have to stand 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.520 for something, Molly. I think people that read me know 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.480 pretty well where I stand on very important issues, and 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.080 you can't be like milk toast. You have to have 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.480 a little flavor, you have to have a little edge, 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.480 and you have to be breaking news. And I think 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.679 if you can create a dish that has those ingredients, 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.959 people will be intrigued by it hopefully pay for it. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.560 And that's where I've been aiming to do a status Let's. 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:05.880 Talk about that for a minute, because that's really important. 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:10.080 So I am an opinion columnist, I would say, very 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.839 very like I would say, I'm center left. If you're 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.520 on the right, you would say, if you write for 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.840 Fox Digital, yes I read it. Thanks guys. I'm a 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.040 far leftist, but obviously if you're any kind of leftist 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.760 you know I'm like quite centrist and I'm pro democracy, 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:32.280 I think, which is ultimately more important than any political leaning. 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.840 And I try really carefully to when I write, though 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.520 I'm largely on the opinion side and not reporting, I'm 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:44.480 pretty careful to keep mindful of my values as much 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.760 as possible, which is not always as possible as I 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.960 would like it to be. Sometimes I have to make choices, 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.040 but you are a reporter, so I'm hoping you could 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.480 talk about that because I think it's interesting and I think, 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.960 more importantly than that, it is what is needed right now. 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:04.000 Yeah, I think that there's been a conflation to some 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:09.160 extent between stating obvious facts and stating an opinion. I 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.800 got into this in one of my recent newsletters, like, 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.720 for instance, the idea of where Cash Patel talks about 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:20.720 using the FBI to go after members of the media. 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.480 I think that I don't even think, I know, that's 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:27.240 an Unamerican way to think, and it's it's it's it 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.760 goes every against everything that you know is embedded into 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.360 the country's founding principles. And I don't really think it's 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.600 an opinion for me to to. You know, if I 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:42.600 was writing a story to describe that as flatly an 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:47.160 American for some reason, some people would argue that's an opinion, 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.080 and then you get into I guess what is opinion 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.960 and what is fact. I think that there are a 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.240 lot of people in the press corps who are worried 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.400 about being seen as partisan for stating I guess obvious facts, 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.920 and Cash Battel is an extremist. That's another fact. Steve 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.480 Bannon is an extremist, Pete Heg Seth is a conspiracy theorist. 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.560 These are well documented facts, and at times you'll see 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.080 like the Associated Press, I think, had a story many 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.640 months ago that called Cash Battel a conspiracy theorist or 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.520 said that he has a long history trafficking and conspiracy theories, 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:25.600 which he actually does. But for some reason, news organizations 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:30.680 shy away from those labels when writing or reporting on 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.640 these figures. And I'm not sure why. I don't think 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:34.440 it's an opinion. 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:35.800 No, it's true. 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.720 Well, people are scared, Molly. They're afraid that if they 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.840 call cash Battel an extremist or Pete hegse ethic conspiracy theorist, 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.840 that they're going to be labeled as leftist, partisans and biased, 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:51.000 and that Fox News will as sail ABC or whoever 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.440 would say some such a thing. And then, I mean, 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.720 look at what happened when when David Mirror fact checked 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.200 Donald Trump a couple times during the debate. You know, 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.240 Sean Hannity gone on air right afterward and attacked Disney 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.480 CEO Bob Iger. And these guys do not want to 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.959 be drawn into the culture wars for a lot of reasons, 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.080 but one because half of the country is still their 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.919 potential customer base. You know, they want Republicans and Democrats 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.439 going to Walt Disney World. News organizations are trying to 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.280 tread softly because I think they want to maintain credibility 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.639 with both halves of the country, and the truth is 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.600 kind of pitting them against each other because I think 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.200 that for a lot of people who lean left, they're 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.679 frustrated not seeing conspiracy theorists called conspiracy theorists, and then 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.320 on the right, if you do do that, then they 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.240 get alienated and think that you're a leftist and you're biased, 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.320 and so it's really a difficult pickle these companies are in. 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:49.199 I happen to think that as journalists, our job is 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:53.280 not to think whether the truth will offend people, but 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.879 it's to report things fairly and accurately. And I don't 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:59.480 think you can tell the story of Cash Betel in 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:04.119 a fair accurate way without very strongly mentioning, you know, 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.280 in the headlines and the leads of stories that this 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.320 is an extremist who has been appointed or named as 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.119 the potential next FBI director. I don't think that's an 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.760 opinion I think that's a matter of fact, and I 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.360 think news organizations have the duty to tell the public 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.400 what's actually happening. She answer your question when I write, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.399 I'm just writing these as you know, I'm just writing 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.240 that Cash Betel is an extremist. And so I think 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.360 because a lot of other people don't write like that, 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.280 maybe they think Oller is like an opinion guy or whatever. 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:34.560 I don't think that's an opinion. I just I'm just 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:36.880 writing a matter of fact. And when I was at CNN, 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.200 we called Fox News a right wing propaganda network in 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.680 news copy because they are, and if anyone has any 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:45.639 questions about that, I'm happy to refer to them to 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.840 you know, a large volume of articles and documents from 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.520 the dominion case that very much indicates that is exactly 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:57.080 what they are. And I think journalists need to actually, frankly, 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.639 have a little more backbone and when they're covering these 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:01.480 these entities. 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:06.400 So interesting, so important, And thank you Oliver. 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.600 Darcey, well thank you Molly. This was really fun.