1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 2: We're on vacation with that doesn't mean we don't have 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: a great show for you Today. Author John Gans examines 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: how we got to our present political moment. But first 7 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: we'll talk to Status News Oliver Darcy about the changing 8 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 2: media landscape. 9 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Oliver Darcy. 10 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 3: Thank you, Molly. I'm excited to be here. 11 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: I wanted to have you on the podcast because I 12 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: read your newsletter every day. Status Well, thank you, You're welcome. 13 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: You are a really smart media reporter and also, you know, 14 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: a lovely human being. But I spent a lot of 15 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: time thinking about the media, and not just because I 16 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: love to think about myself, but because you know, we 17 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: are heading into Trump two point zero and the media 18 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: is really one of the last checks and balances we 19 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: have left. So can you just paint with a broad 20 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: brush what the media looks like right now? 21 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 3: Well, unfortunately it's not in the best shape. And the 22 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 3: broadest way to describe it is I think there are 23 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 3: a number of outlets either facing financial or business struggles, 24 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 3: and then there are other outlets that are facing editorial struggles, 25 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 3: and then their outlets, perhaps like the Los Angeles Times, 26 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 3: facing both editorial and financial struggles, and so unfortunately at 27 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 3: a time I think when the fourth estate you would 28 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 3: want it to be the strongest, in a very strong position, 29 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 3: it's actually quite vulnerable. And you're seeing that in different signs. 30 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: I guess our symptoms are appearing every day, whether it's 31 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: Joe and Mika maybe going down to Malongo to kiss 32 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 3: the ring, or whether it's Jeff Bezos and Patrick Sunchion, 33 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 3: you know, having blocked their newspapers for making endorsements, or 34 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 3: whether it's CNN putting dishonest MAGA voices like Scott Jennings 35 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 3: on the air. I think you're seeing throughout the landscape 36 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 3: troubling signs as Donald Trump prepares to has sent to 37 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: the Oval office once again. 38 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: So there are a number of things happening. One is financial. 39 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 1: These media companies are having a hard time making money. 40 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: Some of that is because tech companies have really put 41 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: them in an impossible spot. 42 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 3: Right, yes, one hundred percent, so talk to us about that. 43 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 3: For a long time. Obviously, these media companies were fueled 44 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 3: by advertiser dollars and right now in twenty twenty four, 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 3: advertisers can generally get a lot more bang for their 46 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 3: buck by advertising with either Google or Meta because they 47 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 3: allow for extreme targeting. Right if you go on Instagram, 48 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: you will get ads targeted specifically to you, like it's 49 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 3: actually quite wild. You don't even want to spend money, 50 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: and you get these ads that are like, you know, 51 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, I'm getting these ads and I'm like, 52 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: I didn't even know this product exists, but this looks 53 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 3: like it was built specifically for me. And that targeting 54 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 3: is really alluding to these advertise And so you've seen 55 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 3: all that ad money that used to maybe be spent 56 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 3: in the you know, glossy pages of Vogue or people 57 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 3: used to advertise on in different number of different areas. 58 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 3: You've seen a lot of the advertising dollars go to 59 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 3: the duopoly of Google and Meta, and that's put a 60 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 3: lot of financial pressure on publishers. And you've seen newspapers 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 3: go under. You know, they really can't make ends meet anymore, 62 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 3: whether that's the local newspapers that are in the communities, 63 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 3: because a lot of small businesses now rather spend their 64 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 3: money online versus in the local paper or whether that's 65 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 3: on the national level where you're seeing papers like the 66 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 3: Los Angeles Times or the Washington Post really really struggle 67 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 3: to make ends meet, and a large part of that 68 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 3: is because of the advertising environment. It's not friendly to them. 69 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: I want you to explain sort of what is left 70 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: in the media sort of world now, like what it 71 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: looks like for newspapers, magazines, and news more generally on television. 72 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: So I think on the local level, we just it 73 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: cannot be underscored enough how decimated the local news environment 74 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: is a lot of communities no longer have a paper. 75 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 3: They're relying maybe on a TV station to cover the news, 76 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 3: and a lot of those are owned by Sinclaire, which 77 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: is another story. And so in the local level it's 78 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: just really terrible. And so hopefully someone can figure out 79 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 3: a way to make this work, but right now it's 80 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: not so good. On the national level, you're seeing a 81 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 3: lot of these one time giants shrink, you know, year 82 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 3: after year, and so La Conde and Asks is a 83 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 3: good example. You know that that company has has continued 84 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 3: to shrink over the years. It was once this huge 85 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 3: behemoth and now it's it's you know, every other It 86 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 3: feels like every few months they're doing some sort of layoffs, 87 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 3: and they're trying to figure out how to transition from 88 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 3: a print business to a digital business with a digital 89 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 3: ad environment not being good. I think a good example, 90 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 3: I guess is Vox Media, which owns New York Magazine, 91 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 3: but also the Verge ear some of these other Internet brands. 92 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 3: You're you're seeing Jim Bankoff, who's the CEO over there, 93 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 3: really look for other revenue streams, whether and generally this 94 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: is becoming a subscription subscription play where they're asking people 95 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 3: to subscribe directly to their publications. It's not great, I 96 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 3: guess on the national level either, where these big publishers 97 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: are shrinking and really struggling to I guess, to stay 98 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 3: alive and find revenue streams that are while. And then 99 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 3: on the television side, there's another whole issue, which is 100 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: that these also one time giants are facing an existential 101 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 3: threat in that people are cutting the cord. Every single year, 102 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 3: millions of Americans are cutting the cord. And what does 103 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 3: that mean. That means that the revenue stream these these 104 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: cable companies, in particular cable news companies are fueled in 105 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: part by Cape or mostly by cable carriage fees. Their 106 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 3: business model is collapsing underneath them, and less people are 107 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 3: watching them, so that means less advertiser dollars because every 108 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 3: time someone cuts the cord, there goes another potential person 109 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 3: you can meet with advertising dollars. And so a company 110 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: like CNN or MSNBC or even Fox News, and then 111 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 3: also there's just a linear channels like ABC News, NBC News. 112 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: They're all losing audience, and so the game really has 113 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 3: become not whether you can grow your audience, but how 114 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 3: you can hold on to the audience you have long 115 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 3: enough to transition to a digital play that will work. 116 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 3: And of course, as we just discussed on digital, there 117 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 3: are all these problems because the advertising market's not great either. 118 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 3: So really what it's coming down to, I think for 119 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 3: all of these players is how to compel reader's viewers 120 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: to pay for direct to consumer subscriptions. And I think 121 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 3: at some point it's going to be challenging because people 122 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: will only pay for a subscription to so many things. Right, 123 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 3: you have a Netflix account, you might have an Hbo account, 124 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 3: you might have a New York Times subscription, But how 125 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 3: many subscriptions can you convince people to pay for before 126 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 3: they're just over it. 127 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm wondering, like when we think about people are 128 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: on line watching news, right, They're watching it in clips, 129 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: they're watching it in the guy with the beanie aggregating 130 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: the news. They're watching news like they want news. It's 131 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: just that cable companies have not figured out how to 132 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: get it to them. Is that correct? 133 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 3: I think that's partly right in that, like, yes, there 134 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: are models for news and commentary that are certainly working online. 135 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 3: I think the issue is these cable companies were making 136 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 3: so much money molly off of these cable carriage fees, 137 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: and so they have They are very large, They have 138 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 3: large workforces to maintain, you know, like CNN basically has 139 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 3: a standing army of journalists around the world, something like 140 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 3: four thousand journalists in the workforce. They're just stationed across 141 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 3: the world and they're all getting paid whether they go 142 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: on air or not. Right, And you might be able 143 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 3: to find a model where like let's say, like a 144 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 3: Kaitlin Collins, you know, can have a let's say five 145 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 3: ten million dollar business built around her, but that's not 146 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 3: going to supplant or dig you out of the hole. 147 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 3: For a billion dollar company. You know, if CNN is 148 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 3: making let's say eight hundred million dollars a year right now, 149 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 3: maybe seven hundred and it was making over a billion, 150 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 3: you know during the Trump years under a former chief 151 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 3: Jeff Zucker, you know, that's that's a profit. And so 152 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 3: even if you can build like a ten million dollar 153 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 3: business around Kaitlin Collins and a ten million dollar business 154 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 3: around Anderson Cooper doing something on streaming, that is nowhere 155 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 3: near the profit margin these companies have been operating, and 156 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 3: so then they need to dramatically downsize. And as they downsize, 157 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 3: there goes a lot of the reporting that they that 158 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 3: they're paying for. And so the trick I think really 159 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 3: is I think you're seeing this with Mark Thompson at CNN, 160 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: is he knows that he needs to really slim down CNN, 161 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 3: get it much much leaner and focused on digital. And 162 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 3: the reality is for these companies to survive, they're all 163 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 3: going to have to get a lot smaller, and that's 164 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: going to be very, very painful over the next few years. 165 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 3: So I guess the question is, yes, there is a 166 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 3: way to get news out to people in in a 167 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 3: profitable way online, It's just not going to replace the 168 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 3: profits that these companies have been making and so you're 169 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 3: going to have to cut a lot of journalists in 170 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 3: the process. 171 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: Yes, for sure. One of the things that happened in 172 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: the nineties, And again I am, I want to say 173 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: a victim of the nineties because that was when I 174 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: started working, and that's when I came of age, which 175 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,599 Speaker 1: makes me sound old, But what I saw in the 176 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: nineties was all of these newspapers and magazines and then 177 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: the Internet, and that they could not make the jump, right. 178 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: They just couldn't figure out how to make the jump, 179 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: and so they didn't and so ultimately what happened was 180 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: they were kind of shrunk and they were kind of 181 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: replaced by things that were not as good or not 182 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: as fulsome but in some ways they were. So can 183 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: you sort of like go along with me and try 184 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: to think of ways in which these news comeanies. Isn't 185 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: there like a way to sort of make this work 186 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: or you think it's really just not suited. 187 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 3: I think there's a way to make news work. I'm 188 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: bullish on that. I mean, I definitely think there's a 189 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 3: way to make news work. I just think that the 190 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 3: current you know, the current dinosaurs, if you will, because 191 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,599 Speaker 3: they're large and they're old, are probably not going to 192 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 3: make it into the next age in the same way, right, 193 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: And so whether that's the old magazine publishers and losing 194 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 3: a lot of glamour there, or whether that's the cable 195 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 3: news companies and some of these big newspapers, like, it's 196 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 3: going to be really tough. I think the Times, the 197 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 3: New York Times, has done a really good job of 198 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: offering a very polished premium offering that adds a lot 199 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 3: of value to people's lie and offers great reporting. I 200 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 3: think that the issue too, though, to some extent, is 201 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 3: how many New York Times is do you need? Right, Molly, 202 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 3: if you subscribe to the New York Times, now, do 203 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 3: you really need another one? Do you want to pay 204 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 3: for three or four New York Times is? I don't know. 205 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 3: And so you know, because The Times has sort of 206 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 3: taken up the market there, and it's possible that maybe 207 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: like CNN could offer a very differentiated product with with 208 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 3: live video around the world that would be interesting. Maybe 209 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 3: that would be a differentiation enough for you just to 210 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 3: pay for it. But I think that's the challenge as well, 211 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 3: Like there are only so many subscriptions. I think people 212 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 3: will pay for and maybe there can be some bundling 213 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 3: in the future, maybe like at some point we see 214 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 3: the Newer Times in Journal and CNN bundle, or maybe 215 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 3: CNN and the New York Times get together. I think 216 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 3: there's gonna be more consolidation that happens because there's too much, 217 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 3: just too many offerings, and it's people are going to 218 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 3: be fatigued. And I also just continue to think that 219 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 3: these massive companies are going to have to slim down 220 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 3: dramatically just to survive. And that's not to say, like, 221 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 3: look like as these companies also slim down, other things 222 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 3: will grow, Right, So you have newer companies like Pop 223 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: or Axios or these newer age companies that pop up 224 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: and maybe fill a little bit of that void. But 225 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 3: as as technology progresses, things are disrupted, and I think 226 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 3: we're just continuing to live through that, right. 227 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: No, agreed, And like there definitely are certainly opportunities to 228 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: rethink the business model, and you've done that really well, 229 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: So talk to me about how you've done that well. 230 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 3: I think if we go back to this a second 231 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 3: as well, I think you know, there are a lot 232 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 3: of companies, again, the big ones that have a lot 233 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: of people there and and whether like CNN goes to 234 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 3: air in South Korea or you know, and where they 235 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: have someone's station or where they have you know, whether 236 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 3: they go to air in Africa where they have probably 237 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 3: someone's station, or maybe they have people station all across 238 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 3: the world, and a lot of those people if they're 239 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 3: not going on air, I think that you know they're 240 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 3: they're gonna mean, they're obviously getting paid regardless. And I 241 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 3: think that if you're someone like Mark Thompson, you have 242 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 3: to figure out how to get them to create content 243 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 3: every single day, even if it doesn't go to air 244 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 3: and adds something of value, because if you're adding something 245 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: of value, people will I think, pay for it. And 246 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 3: that's what I've seen with my own company status is 247 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 3: every single day I wake up and I'm trying to 248 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 3: add value. I'm trying to tell you something you don't know, 249 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 3: to give you pieces of information that you were unaware 250 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 3: of before. Because I think that when you have a 251 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 3: strong product like that that tells people, it informs people, 252 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: it's interesting to read, they will pay for it. It's 253 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 3: just a matter of doing that on a consistent basis. 254 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 3: I also think as well that you have to stand 255 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 3: for something, Molly. I think people that read me know 256 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: pretty well where I stand on very important issues, and 257 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: you can't be like milk toast. You have to have 258 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 3: a little flavor, you have to have a little edge, 259 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: and you have to be breaking news. And I think 260 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 3: if you can create a dish that has those ingredients, 261 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 3: people will be intrigued by it hopefully pay for it. 262 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 3: And that's where I've been aiming to do a status Let's. 263 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: Talk about that for a minute, because that's really important. 264 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: So I am an opinion columnist, I would say, very 265 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: very like I would say, I'm center left. If you're 266 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: on the right, you would say, if you write for 267 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: Fox Digital, yes I read it. Thanks guys. I'm a 268 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: far leftist, but obviously if you're any kind of leftist 269 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: you know I'm like quite centrist and I'm pro democracy, 270 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: I think, which is ultimately more important than any political leaning. 271 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: And I try really carefully to when I write, though 272 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: I'm largely on the opinion side and not reporting, I'm 273 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: pretty careful to keep mindful of my values as much 274 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: as possible, which is not always as possible as I 275 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: would like it to be. Sometimes I have to make choices, 276 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: but you are a reporter, so I'm hoping you could 277 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: talk about that because I think it's interesting and I think, 278 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: more importantly than that, it is what is needed right now. 279 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that there's been a conflation to some 280 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: extent between stating obvious facts and stating an opinion. I 281 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 3: got into this in one of my recent newsletters, like, 282 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 3: for instance, the idea of where Cash Patel talks about 283 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 3: using the FBI to go after members of the media. 284 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 3: I think that I don't even think, I know, that's 285 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 3: an Unamerican way to think, and it's it's it's it 286 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 3: goes every against everything that you know is embedded into 287 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: the country's founding principles. And I don't really think it's 288 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 3: an opinion for me to to. You know, if I 289 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 3: was writing a story to describe that as flatly an 290 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: American for some reason, some people would argue that's an opinion, 291 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 3: and then you get into I guess what is opinion 292 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 3: and what is fact. I think that there are a 293 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 3: lot of people in the press corps who are worried 294 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: about being seen as partisan for stating I guess obvious facts, 295 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 3: and Cash Battel is an extremist. That's another fact. Steve 296 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 3: Bannon is an extremist, Pete Heg Seth is a conspiracy theorist. 297 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 3: These are well documented facts, and at times you'll see 298 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 3: like the Associated Press, I think, had a story many 299 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 3: months ago that called Cash Battel a conspiracy theorist or 300 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 3: said that he has a long history trafficking and conspiracy theories, 301 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: which he actually does. But for some reason, news organizations 302 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 3: shy away from those labels when writing or reporting on 303 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 3: these figures. And I'm not sure why. I don't think 304 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 3: it's an opinion. 305 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: No, it's true. 306 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: Well, people are scared, Molly. They're afraid that if they 307 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: call cash Battel an extremist or Pete hegse ethic conspiracy theorist, 308 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 3: that they're going to be labeled as leftist, partisans and biased, 309 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 3: and that Fox News will as sail ABC or whoever 310 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 3: would say some such a thing. And then, I mean, 311 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 3: look at what happened when when David Mirror fact checked 312 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 3: Donald Trump a couple times during the debate. You know, 313 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 3: Sean Hannity gone on air right afterward and attacked Disney 314 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 3: CEO Bob Iger. And these guys do not want to 315 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 3: be drawn into the culture wars for a lot of reasons, 316 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 3: but one because half of the country is still their 317 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 3: potential customer base. You know, they want Republicans and Democrats 318 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 3: going to Walt Disney World. News organizations are trying to 319 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 3: tread softly because I think they want to maintain credibility 320 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 3: with both halves of the country, and the truth is 321 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 3: kind of pitting them against each other because I think 322 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 3: that for a lot of people who lean left, they're 323 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 3: frustrated not seeing conspiracy theorists called conspiracy theorists, and then 324 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 3: on the right, if you do do that, then they 325 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 3: get alienated and think that you're a leftist and you're biased, 326 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 3: and so it's really a difficult pickle these companies are in. 327 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 3: I happen to think that as journalists, our job is 328 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 3: not to think whether the truth will offend people, but 329 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 3: it's to report things fairly and accurately. And I don't 330 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 3: think you can tell the story of Cash Betel in 331 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 3: a fair accurate way without very strongly mentioning, you know, 332 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 3: in the headlines and the leads of stories that this 333 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: is an extremist who has been appointed or named as 334 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 3: the potential next FBI director. I don't think that's an 335 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 3: opinion I think that's a matter of fact, and I 336 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 3: think news organizations have the duty to tell the public 337 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 3: what's actually happening. She answer your question when I write, 338 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 3: I'm just writing these as you know, I'm just writing 339 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 3: that Cash Betel is an extremist. And so I think 340 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 3: because a lot of other people don't write like that, 341 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 3: maybe they think Oller is like an opinion guy or whatever. 342 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 3: I don't think that's an opinion. I just I'm just 343 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 3: writing a matter of fact. And when I was at CNN, 344 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 3: we called Fox News a right wing propaganda network in 345 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 3: news copy because they are, and if anyone has any 346 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 3: questions about that, I'm happy to refer to them to 347 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 3: you know, a large volume of articles and documents from 348 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 3: the dominion case that very much indicates that is exactly 349 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 3: what they are. And I think journalists need to actually, frankly, 350 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 3: have a little more backbone and when they're covering these 351 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 3: these entities. 352 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 1: So interesting, so important, And thank you Oliver. 353 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: Darcey, well thank you Molly. This was really fun.