Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
Speaker 1: You know, we've heard from a lot of amazing people
Speaker 1: on this podcast, like Pamala Harris and Demanda Gorman and
Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi and Stacy Abrahams and Maria Ressa, Tan France,
Speaker 1: Jose Andreas, and that's just to name a few. But
Speaker 1: I know all of these people would be quick to
Speaker 1: tell you that no one does great things alone. We
Speaker 1: need friends, spouses, partners, siblings, colleagues, and others we can
Speaker 1: turn to for support who will keep us motivated and
Speaker 1: hold us accountable. So on today's episode, we're celebrating partnerships.
Speaker 1: I'll be talking to Lieutenant Governor and Second Lady of
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania John and Giselle Fetterman about their shared commitment to
Speaker 1: public service. And I'll be talking to Jorge and Ilana Valdez,
Speaker 1: a brother sister team who found a creative new way
Speaker 1: to help thousands of college students find friendships and more
Speaker 1: while campuses are shut down. But first I'm talking to
Speaker 1: Amy not Too So and and Friedman, hosts of the
Speaker 1: beloved podcast Call Your Girlfriend, and now best selling authors
Speaker 1: about friendship Amy Not Too So, and and Friedman are
Speaker 1: each extraordinary women in their own right. Last July, they
Speaker 1: released their book Big Friendship, How We Keep each Other Close,
Speaker 1: which is really a love letter to friendship and a
Speaker 1: guide for people who want to be better friends in
Speaker 1: a time when we've been isolated from our friends. This
Speaker 1: book sure resonated with me, and I was delighted to
Speaker 1: welcome them to the podcast. I'm just so excited to
Speaker 1: talk to both of you. And it's particularly poignant to
Speaker 1: me because in the last year I've lost two really,
Speaker 1: really good friends, and I missed them all the time.
Speaker 1: I mean every day I want to talk to one
Speaker 1: or the other about what's going on or you know,
Speaker 1: what they're thinking or how they're managing. And I almost
Speaker 1: have to catch myself because you know, I can't talk
Speaker 1: to them. But when you think about friendship, and the
Speaker 1: two of you just really have delved into it. What
Speaker 1: are some of your favorite examples of friendship and popular culture? First,
Speaker 1: I just want to say I'm so sorry for your loss,
Speaker 1: Like hearing that is, it's so big and it's so profound,
Speaker 1: you know, I think the reason and and I are
Speaker 1: so invested in our friendship and in friendship in general.
Speaker 1: I think it is because culturally, we haven't made space
Speaker 1: to to tell people that, you know, when your friend,
Speaker 1: I said, is a significant loss in your life, and
Speaker 1: that we should treat it that way, you know, and
Speaker 1: you should have time for bereavement, and you should have
Speaker 1: people check in on you. So that is you know,
Speaker 1: that's a lot to hear. And I'm so sorry you're
Speaker 1: dealing with that. To your question about friendship and popular culture,
Speaker 1: I think that pop culture for me has always been
Speaker 1: where the idealized version of friendship was. I was an
Speaker 1: obsessive Mary Tyler Moore show watcher as a kid, and
Speaker 1: when and when I was learning English, it was a
Speaker 1: show that meant so much to me, and so like that,
Speaker 1: friendship is iconic to me. I think, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: in the book, we write a lot about Oprah and Gail,
Speaker 1: and while that is not a fictional account of friendship,
Speaker 1: I think that too very real women sharing how invested
Speaker 1: they are in each other. That is something that had
Speaker 1: it has left a lasting impression on my life. How
Speaker 1: about you, an well, and when we talk about complex
Speaker 1: portrayals of friendship that you know, don't just show the
Speaker 1: idealized good stuff, but show everything that it can mean
Speaker 1: to be in someone's life this way. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of those examples come from fiction. We both love
Speaker 1: Tony Morrison Sula and speaking of a lifelong, powerful, profound entanglement,
Speaker 1: so to speak. That book really gets at some of
Speaker 1: the things I think we were hoping to write about,
Speaker 1: in the sense that a friendship can be lots of things,
Speaker 1: not just always affirming and joyful, but complex and difficult.
Speaker 1: You know, when you make friends as an adult, that's
Speaker 1: a different kind of entry into friendship. I think about
Speaker 1: how YouTube met watching what the premiere of Gossip Girl,
Speaker 1: right the prom episode. Let me tell you it was
Speaker 1: riveting stuff. I just I love the the image of it.
Speaker 1: But you became friends as adults, and I think that's
Speaker 1: a really significant event because for so many people, you know,
Speaker 1: that's hard for them, you know. I think that and
Speaker 1: and I were both people that we were so aware
Speaker 1: that so much of our social life when we were
Speaker 1: young was really organized around our parents. That is just
Speaker 1: the truth of any young person. You meet people because
Speaker 1: you're in the same boat as them, and to some
Speaker 1: extent that is also true in college. And I think
Speaker 1: that you know once you step out into the real world.
Speaker 1: You have this opportunity to just be yourself and tell
Speaker 1: your story to people who you know don't have like
Speaker 1: a preconceived notion of who you are, and you get
Speaker 1: to try out almost like a new identity. We're like,
Speaker 1: this is who I am when the world is not
Speaker 1: negotiating me through my mom and dad or my academic
Speaker 1: achievements or whatever. And so I think that, like when
Speaker 1: we met, it was very much a phase of life
Speaker 1: where you know, we lived in d C, such a
Speaker 1: transient kind of city, but we had a lot of
Speaker 1: room in our life to make a new friend because
Speaker 1: we were trying to figure out who am I going
Speaker 1: to be in the world, Like who do I want
Speaker 1: to be when I like an older, more established person.
Speaker 1: And so when I think about people who don't want to,
Speaker 1: you know, they think that they don't have the capacity
Speaker 1: to make friends as adults, it makes me really sad
Speaker 1: because I think that the opportunity you have every time
Speaker 1: you make a friend as an adult, particularly like every
Speaker 1: decade of adulthood, is that you get to be a
Speaker 1: new person in someone's life, and you get to learn
Speaker 1: about yourself in a new context. And so I just
Speaker 1: really hope that we are people who are open to
Speaker 1: that in every season of life. It's so true that
Speaker 1: part of our story is about meeting at this point
Speaker 1: where we were trying to figure out what the next
Speaker 1: phase looked like for both of us individually. And when
Speaker 1: we look back on our admittedly kind of limited experience
Speaker 1: in adulthood making friends, like hopefully we're both around a
Speaker 1: long time to make a lot more, we really see
Speaker 1: that we both have made friends and periods of transition
Speaker 1: and periods where something is shifting in our lives and
Speaker 1: we maybe require are a new kind of relationship or
Speaker 1: support to see us into the next phase. And you know,
Speaker 1: we're all always changing, and I think friends are a
Speaker 1: great reminder of that and a great inspiration to change more.
Speaker 1: You know, when you think about the friends from different
Speaker 1: phases of your life, it does reflect who you are,
Speaker 1: but it also, as you both said, reflect who you
Speaker 1: want to become. Because there is a way in which
Speaker 1: your friendship, especially a close friendship, can be such a
Speaker 1: stimulant for you having to take steps it might be
Speaker 1: a little scary or break off a different relationship because
Speaker 1: you've got the support of a friend when you should
Speaker 1: have done it even before. So there's just a lot
Speaker 1: of learning that goes on through friendship. And you know,
Speaker 1: when you talk about friendship, you know, you came up
Speaker 1: with a couple of terms that really resonated with me.
Speaker 1: One is big friendship. What sets big friendship apart? Is
Speaker 1: there such a thing as a little friendship? I love
Speaker 1: the idea of a little friendship. You're like a little
Speaker 1: friendship as a treat for you. Little friendships everywhere our
Speaker 1: next book, right exactly, that's right. You know, I think
Speaker 1: that what we were really trying to get at is
Speaker 1: that the word friend is so nebulous. Friend is anyone
Speaker 1: from that person that you met one time who did
Speaker 1: that really nice thing for you, to someone that's you know,
Speaker 1: they're just in your Facebook feed and you don't remember
Speaker 1: when you met them. And then you know, there's the
Speaker 1: friend like Anne is my friend, someone who I want
Speaker 1: her to be there on my last day in the world.
Speaker 1: I want to know that I have a strong, solid
Speaker 1: relationship with her. And in the Golden Girls version of this,
Speaker 1: you know she's there at the nursing home with me.
Speaker 1: That's the that's the fantasy. Please, you mean, on our
Speaker 1: Hawaiian compound, we are not in the nursing home. But
Speaker 1: let's let's construct a better fantasy for this. Okay, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. But you know, I think that
Speaker 1: they're so much of the unexpressed feelings a friendship or
Speaker 1: that is that we don't we're not even precise about
Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, and so in um, you know,
Speaker 1: coining Big Friendship and talking about it, we are so
Speaker 1: laser focused on the kind of friendship that you want
Speaker 1: to be so deeply rooted in that this person is
Speaker 1: a huge part of your life. You want the worlds
Speaker 1: to know and to recognize that they're a big part
Speaker 1: of your life. It is a relationship that is mature,
Speaker 1: It's a relationship that is rooted in the future, and
Speaker 1: that is um you know, I think really upends the
Speaker 1: social scripts for um, the role that your friends are
Speaker 1: supposed to have in your life. Like we are, we
Speaker 1: are so deeply invested, you know, in creating a world
Speaker 1: where romantic love or you know, like parents and children
Speaker 1: bonds are not the only ones that people think make
Speaker 1: you a whole adult, you know, And we think that
Speaker 1: with Big Friendship, we're getting a little closer to that world.
Speaker 1: But I have to point out that you two have
Speaker 1: been very honest about the trials and tribulations of your
Speaker 1: big friendship. This is the exact reason we wanted to
Speaker 1: write a book, in fact, that something that encompasses the
Speaker 1: complexity of friendship as opposed to just the joyful, up
Speaker 1: on the shelf parts of it. And you know, for us,
Speaker 1: I think the hardest moments were things that started small,
Speaker 1: you know, moments of disconnect or miscommunication where one of
Speaker 1: us felt you know, maybe dismissed or hurt, but didn't
Speaker 1: say anything in real time. And then some more time
Speaker 1: passed and something else happened, and the disconnect kind of
Speaker 1: compounded until it got to this place where we were
Speaker 1: really just completely missing each other and also didn't feel
Speaker 1: safe or comfortable talking about the hard things in our
Speaker 1: lives individually. And it was complex because we on the outside,
Speaker 1: we're still hosting a podcast together, we were still extremely
Speaker 1: functional colleagues, we still had this really deep well of
Speaker 1: love and respect for each other, but in the kind
Speaker 1: of emotional day to day our relationship was not great.
Speaker 1: And I also have to say that friendship is unique
Speaker 1: among intimate relationships. You know, it can kind of fall
Speaker 1: into the same traps you know, the same ebbs and
Speaker 1: flows that any other relationship has. Conflict is just part
Speaker 1: of intimately knowing people, and that's something we wanted to
Speaker 1: really bring to the conversation about friendship. We're taking a
Speaker 1: quick break. Stay with us. You know, I love this
Speaker 1: poem that you have in the book. You share a
Speaker 1: few lines of a Pat Parker poem for the white
Speaker 1: person who wants to know how to be my friend,
Speaker 1: and then you go on to sort of pick that
Speaker 1: apart two because for people who might not know who
Speaker 1: you are, which I can't believe anybody actually doesn't. You know,
Speaker 1: we have a black friend and a white friend, and
Speaker 1: the two have had to not only navigate business and friendship,
Speaker 1: and there were relationship but also race. Let's you know,
Speaker 1: let's be clear. And in this poem, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: so fascinating because you know, the poem begins with the
Speaker 1: first thing you do is to forget that I'm black. Second,
Speaker 1: you must never forget that I'm black. So how do
Speaker 1: you to navigate this dynamic in your friendship? And you know,
Speaker 1: as somebody who's been blessed with really strong friendships with
Speaker 1: black women for many years, I'm often amazed at the
Speaker 1: obstacles that they face in their everyday life, which are
Speaker 1: you know, just stomach churning and so how have you
Speaker 1: to navigate this dynamic? And and and have you ever
Speaker 1: had to stop and think or or worried that you're
Speaker 1: getting it wrong in you know, trying to be as
Speaker 1: honest as you possibly can have I ever, you know,
Speaker 1: one reason we love that poem so much is because
Speaker 1: it really does speak to this duality of like what
Speaker 1: makes friendship powerful is that two people feel connected, right,
Speaker 1: they feel a sense of affinity. And at the same time,
Speaker 1: if it's an interracial friendship, particularly one like hours involving
Speaker 1: a white friend and a black friend, we do not
Speaker 1: have parallel experiences in this world. And you know, that
Speaker 1: dynamic that you're talking about of, you know, really coming
Speaker 1: to a deeper understanding of what it means to be
Speaker 1: a black woman in the United States of America through
Speaker 1: your friendship with black women is something that I fully
Speaker 1: relate to. You know. It's one thing to kind of
Speaker 1: read statistics or read the news, and it's another when
Speaker 1: a person you love says like this is what's going
Speaker 1: on with me, and like this is how this plays
Speaker 1: out in my day to day life, and so that
Speaker 1: is something that we really write about as not an
Speaker 1: equal experience for both people in the friendship, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can tell you that I feel deeply
Speaker 1: grateful for having my world expanded and having more knowledge
Speaker 1: of what it's like for people who are not you know,
Speaker 1: of my race in this country. But I also recognize
Speaker 1: that that comes at a really painful cost for friends
Speaker 1: like I mean not to um and that conversation and
Speaker 1: that kind of labor to explain her experience of the
Speaker 1: world in a way that you know, I get to
Speaker 1: have a learning experience just has a different toll. And
Speaker 1: being able to hold those things as joint truths is
Speaker 1: not all that different from holding the joint truths of
Speaker 1: you must forget I'm black, and you must never forget
Speaker 1: I'm black, and and you know, and to your point
Speaker 1: about UM, are these things I think about? You know,
Speaker 1: I think I have been a lot better at the
Speaker 1: first part of that than the second part of it,
Speaker 1: you know. I think a sort of constant vigilance and
Speaker 1: work and conversation is required for me, a white person
Speaker 1: who is raised and steeped in white culture, to be
Speaker 1: more actionable and accountable when it comes to not forgetting
Speaker 1: that people I love are black and have this experience
Speaker 1: in the world, and from your perspective, I mean not
Speaker 1: to as one half of this very powerful, big friendship.
Speaker 1: How have you navigated race or has it been just
Speaker 1: the continuity of your life having to Navy? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: as you know, I'm black, so I you know, for me,
Speaker 1: it's not having conversations about race is not something that
Speaker 1: I am more attuned to when you know, something terribly
Speaker 1: racist happens on the news, and so you know, even
Speaker 1: just that experience, I think was was something that I
Speaker 1: was just like not fully aware of that I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I talked about race all the time because I'm black
Speaker 1: and I don't have the choice to not. But realizing that,
Speaker 1: you know, for a lot of my white friends, this
Speaker 1: is like they're tuning in now because the news sets
Speaker 1: they should tune in, or because there has been an incident,
Speaker 1: you know. And and even in my friendship with and
Speaker 1: where we are two people who are very justice minded,
Speaker 1: and we are people who care a lot about living
Speaker 1: in a world that is fair and equitable, we've been
Speaker 1: great about talking about you know, racism as it happens
Speaker 1: in the world. But understanding that, um, we also needed
Speaker 1: to talk about how it was affecting our own friendship.
Speaker 1: You know, that required a different kind of work. And
Speaker 1: Anna is correct that the toll is the toll is
Speaker 1: so very different you know when usually in intimate relationships
Speaker 1: with white people. I have noticed and um, you know,
Speaker 1: the critic Wesley Morris told us this, um for the
Speaker 1: book that usually if a conversation about race is happening,
Speaker 1: it's not because the white person is bringing it up.
Speaker 1: And that is just like one tiny example of you know,
Speaker 1: the kind of repetitive work that you have to do
Speaker 1: all the time. And I think you know, Anna and
Speaker 1: I are also not naive, like racism is bigger than
Speaker 1: our friendship. We love each other a lot and we
Speaker 1: we want to be there for each other. But this
Speaker 1: is what we mean when we talk about systems that
Speaker 1: oppress people, and so um, you know, she is right.
Speaker 1: It requires a nimbleness and it requires constant vigilance, you know,
Speaker 1: for for us, and I have to say that, you know,
Speaker 1: for people who say that they struggle with this, I
Speaker 1: would really like push them to think about all of
Speaker 1: the other ways that they can be different in their
Speaker 1: relationships you know, for white women, I'm like, if you
Speaker 1: are married to a man. I'm not saying that it's
Speaker 1: apples to oranges, but I think that you you can
Speaker 1: understand how you can deeply love someone who also gets
Speaker 1: on your last nerve about having that deeply affects your life,
Speaker 1: you know, when that is true for straight people who
Speaker 1: are friends with not straight people, and it's true, it's
Speaker 1: true in in all of these ways. And I think
Speaker 1: that having a compassion for people who are different and
Speaker 1: having the ability to be the one that says, hey,
Speaker 1: I understand that my experience is very different than yours,
Speaker 1: and I want to keep checking in on that, and
Speaker 1: I want to keep bringing that up because the world
Speaker 1: is very cruel to a lot of different kinds of people.
Speaker 1: And I think that if you are saying that you
Speaker 1: are friends with people, that is something that you need
Speaker 1: to acknowledge from the jump, and it's something that you
Speaker 1: really have to be invested in, um, you know, in
Speaker 1: being part of a conversation. Otherwise your relationship will never
Speaker 1: go deeper than them, you know. I started by talking
Speaker 1: about two friends that I lost this past year. One
Speaker 1: a friend since sixth grade, someone who uh I was
Speaker 1: in her wedding, she was in my wedding. You know,
Speaker 1: we we were in constant touch with each other. We
Speaker 1: just had, you know, one of those incredible friendships where
Speaker 1: we knew what each other was thinking at the same
Speaker 1: time and could kind of do the old side eye
Speaker 1: about what we're hearing or seeing. It was one of
Speaker 1: the great joys of my life. And my other friend
Speaker 1: was an adult made friend who I met in the nineties,
Speaker 1: had a chance to work with in a number of capacities.
Speaker 1: Was somebody whose opinion I valued so much, who literally
Speaker 1: could and would tell me anything. One of those friends
Speaker 1: that everybody needs. Uh So I thought a lot about
Speaker 1: friendship and knowing what real friendships have been in my life,
Speaker 1: and knowing how difficult it is sometimes for people to
Speaker 1: form them to maintain them, especially with everything else going
Speaker 1: on in their lives and in the world around them.
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to the two of you because
Speaker 1: you've been, you know, so important in modeling what it
Speaker 1: means to be a friend. You have fought for your friendship,
Speaker 1: you have committed to your friendship, and I find that
Speaker 1: really inspiring. I'm getting so emotional, and I'm really going
Speaker 1: to try not to cry. But I think that hearing
Speaker 1: you articulate everything that you said about your friends who
Speaker 1: are gone like that is why it matters. You know,
Speaker 1: this idea that, um, you can love people so deeply
Speaker 1: and they can mean so much to you. Know, I
Speaker 1: think that as a society we are not great at
Speaker 1: reinforcing that those people can be your friends. And when
Speaker 1: I hear you say that, I I'm just remind it
Speaker 1: again and again that we we need people need to
Speaker 1: know that the greatest loves of your life can be
Speaker 1: your friends. And the reason that it's worth fighting for
Speaker 1: your relationships, particularly your friendships, is because you know we
Speaker 1: are not all going to be here, and if you
Speaker 1: are lucky, you will pass on in the same season
Speaker 1: of life. But that is not a reality for everyone.
Speaker 1: And I think feeling that you really gave it your
Speaker 1: all and that you feel not unresolved about how you
Speaker 1: expressed your love to someone that meant so much to you,
Speaker 1: you know, I keep coming back to that over and
Speaker 1: over again. It's why this is so important. It's true,
Speaker 1: and we also owe a great debt to you in
Speaker 1: terms of feeling like we can be honest and open
Speaker 1: about these kinds of things, and um, We're very aware
Speaker 1: that we did not like spring from nothing, you know,
Speaker 1: we come from uh, you know, amazing examples in you know,
Speaker 1: lgbt Q scholarship and in you know, feminist movement, and
Speaker 1: you know, examples of women in politics and business and
Speaker 1: in all these other areas that really enable us to
Speaker 1: have the conversations that we want to have now. And
Speaker 1: so that's one reason why it's so powerful to hear
Speaker 1: you say that, because we are also very grateful. Thank you,
Speaker 1: my friends. I am so delighted to talk to you both.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thank you, I mean not to.
Speaker 1: And Ann's book is called Big Friendship How we keep
Speaker 1: each other close, and you can hear them every week
Speaker 1: on their podcast, Call Your Girlfriend. I first met John
Speaker 1: and Giselle Fetterman when I was on the campaign trail
Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen. I was struck by their shared
Speaker 1: commitment to public service and by how much fun they
Speaker 1: have together. As Lieutenant Governor and second Lady of Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: They've spurred each other on when it comes to getting
Speaker 1: things done for their community and advocating for people who
Speaker 1: really needs somebody in their corner. They live in Braddock, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 1: where John was mayor for thirteen years, and if working
Speaker 1: at homeschooling their three children wasn't enough, recently, their lives
Speaker 1: got even busier when John announced that he's running to
Speaker 1: be the next U. S. Senator from Pennsylvania. I really
Speaker 1: was looking forward to talking to them together for this podcast. Well,
Speaker 1: let me just welcome you to this show. I'm so
Speaker 1: excited to talk with both John and Giselle. And we
Speaker 1: know everybody's been you know, kind of COVID isolated. Just
Speaker 1: give our listeners a little insight into managing three kids
Speaker 1: while you both stay so busy and watching political campaigns
Speaker 1: and fulfilling your duties as lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania. You know,
Speaker 1: we have a six year old, a nine year old,
Speaker 1: and eleven year old boy. It's fun, it's overwhelming. I
Speaker 1: know that you know, we're gonna look back and be
Speaker 1: grateful for all this time that we had together. I
Speaker 1: mean at times I hide in the closet for a
Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, well, how did the two of you meet.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say this that she's gonna tell the
Speaker 1: story to embarrass me. It's a very romantic story. I
Speaker 1: hope everyone has tissues. Uh So at the time, I
Speaker 1: was working out of Newark, New Jersey and Food Justice
Speaker 1: and food Access. I nutritionist by trade, and I was
Speaker 1: at a retreat and I read this article about this
Speaker 1: community of Braddick and they talked about the history of
Speaker 1: this incredibly rich community, Andrew Carnegie's for steel mill, big
Speaker 1: contributions to this country, and then it was kind of
Speaker 1: left behind, and that was really upsetting to me. It
Speaker 1: just felt wrong. And I loved the Brooklyn Bridge when
Speaker 1: I lived in New York. I just love this bridge.
Speaker 1: I thought it was magnificent. And I learned that the
Speaker 1: steal that built the Brooklyn Bridge came from Braddick. Brazilians.
Speaker 1: We believe in signs, and I said, this is a sign.
Speaker 1: So I wrote a letter to the borough and I
Speaker 1: shared the work that I was doing with Food Justice
Speaker 1: and I wanted to visit and learn more and understand
Speaker 1: how this could happen to a city like this. And
Speaker 1: the letter ended up with John and he called me.
Speaker 1: I came to visit, I think like two months later,
Speaker 1: and then I arrived and he felt madly, just madly
Speaker 1: in love with me. So yeah, so that's how she
Speaker 1: tells it, and that's obviously not true. But she enjoys
Speaker 1: shutting that out there, and then when people see what
Speaker 1: an ogre I look like and which she looks like,
Speaker 1: they assumed that it's like, well, that's got to be true.
Speaker 1: But it is true that that but for her reaching
Speaker 1: out to that letter, I don't know if our paths
Speaker 1: would have ever crossed. You know. One of the reasons
Speaker 1: that I wanted to talk with both of you is
Speaker 1: because you both are known for your public service and
Speaker 1: for you know, really trying to help people, and you
Speaker 1: have a partnership, and the partnership is really key to
Speaker 1: what both of you have been able to accomplish. And
Speaker 1: so Giselle, I want to start with you first. How
Speaker 1: did you get involved in public service? And really what
Speaker 1: I view and reading about everything you're doing a really
Speaker 1: creative approach to you know, service and empowerment of people.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I think my stems from gratitude. You know.
Speaker 1: I came to this country as a young immigrant. My
Speaker 1: family essentially live in the shadows for almost fifteen years.
Speaker 1: We were undocumented, and we found ourselves in this whole
Speaker 1: new world and kind of navigating our way around it.
Speaker 1: And I saw things that I knew weren't the best
Speaker 1: way for something to be done, and I was never
Speaker 1: in a position to be able to do something about it.
Speaker 1: So I collected these kind of pains and these stories
Speaker 1: and these experiences for when one day I was in
Speaker 1: the position to do something about it. And so I
Speaker 1: think it comes from I'm grateful that I get to
Speaker 1: live in this country and I get to do the
Speaker 1: work that I do, and that's what keeps me going.
Speaker 1: That really resonates with me. You know, John, your story
Speaker 1: is also fascinating to me. How did you originally get
Speaker 1: into public service? It's it's your family that that did.
Speaker 1: I was in year two of AmeriCorps, which you know
Speaker 1: very well. You know the history there. Um. I went
Speaker 1: to the Hill House, which was an organization in Pittsburgh's
Speaker 1: historic Hill District, which is the Great Black Jazz It's
Speaker 1: kind of like the you know, the Second Harlem, if
Speaker 1: you will, of America, to teach g D classes and
Speaker 1: set up computer labs there, and that was made possible
Speaker 1: by AmeriCorps. I was at twenty four year old and
Speaker 1: I wanted to get into public service, but I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure how, but AmeriCorps made that possible. So so thank
Speaker 1: you well. I think in a list of accomplishments that
Speaker 1: my husband's most proud of AmeriCorps way up at the top.
Speaker 1: So I will pass that on. We need more of
Speaker 1: that in America right now. I hope that part of
Speaker 1: the change in our politics and our society is trying
Speaker 1: to intentionally create more and more opportunities for service, which
Speaker 1: then has the benefits that you just described. John, when
Speaker 1: you came to do that g e D program, what
Speaker 1: was your transition into decigning to run for mayor and Braddock?
Speaker 1: How did that happen? Yeah, just to put that in context,
Speaker 1: Braddock had lost its population. It was as vibrant and
Speaker 1: robust as Silicon Valley is because Pittsburgh and the steel
Speaker 1: industry was that industry that was driving American innovation. Fast
Speaker 1: forward to when I showed up twenty years ago, you know,
Speaker 1: affiliated with AmeriCorps. We lost the population and the community
Speaker 1: was around black and it was one of the port is,
Speaker 1: one of the porst communities in Pennsylvania. So I started
Speaker 1: setting up programming to help young people get their g
Speaker 1: d s, get their jobs. There's driver's license. And then
Speaker 1: after a couple of years it was going beautifully and
Speaker 1: I was feeling really enriched, but two of my students
Speaker 1: were killed with guns, and it really hit me with
Speaker 1: a realization that it's great that I can get someone
Speaker 1: a g D or a job, but that's not much
Speaker 1: help if they're not around to to do that. So
Speaker 1: I I ran for mayor, wanting to be the change
Speaker 1: I hoped to impose or create in my community, and
Speaker 1: that would be that you don't lose anybody through gun violence.
Speaker 1: And that first race, the young people that I worked with,
Speaker 1: you know, my former students, all registered to vote and
Speaker 1: went and knocked on door to door for me. And
Speaker 1: long story short, I won that first race by one vote,
Speaker 1: one vote, one vote. So I have the ultimate every
Speaker 1: vote counts story because I would never have been mayor,
Speaker 1: lieutenant governor, or you know, having the esteem, privilege, and
Speaker 1: honor to be talking to you this morning, but for
Speaker 1: that one vote back in two thousand and five. Well,
Speaker 1: what I like, though, is that you are willing to
Speaker 1: speak out and invite people to come into the conversation.
Speaker 1: You've been an outspoken advocate on everything from lgbt Q rights,
Speaker 1: immigration reform obviously, to marijuana legalization. One of the subjects
Speaker 1: you've really run with as lieutenant governor. But in following
Speaker 1: your career and just on that marijuana legalization issue, what
Speaker 1: you did was very much in keeping with how I
Speaker 1: think of politics. You traveled the whole state, the whole
Speaker 1: Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. You went to you know, every corner,
Speaker 1: engaging people. You had people who agreed with you, people
Speaker 1: who disagreed, and people who just wanted to know what
Speaker 1: the debate was all about. And that led you then
Speaker 1: to be able to make a recommendation and based on
Speaker 1: real conversations, how do we get back to that, John,
Speaker 1: how do we try to reinstate the sense of um,
Speaker 1: you know, not only civility, um, but you know, a
Speaker 1: real conversation about the direction of our country going forward.
Speaker 1: Well that that what a great question because like it
Speaker 1: just brought me back to Pennsylvania has sixty seven counties,
Speaker 1: and I insisted to go every single one of them,
Speaker 1: and just to give you an idea of the diversity
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania, Like our our smallest county has five thousand
Speaker 1: people in it. And it's hard to remember that we're
Speaker 1: all Pennsylvanians because our life experiences could be so drastically different.
Speaker 1: But you just mentioned the words civility and and my gosh,
Speaker 1: like those meetings were all civil, it was such a
Speaker 1: great conversation, like going to the reddest communities, the reddest
Speaker 1: counties in Pennsylvania, Like it's it's nostalgic, but it's crazy,
Speaker 1: is that wasn't even that long ago, and you know
Speaker 1: how much things have changed and how toxic things have gotten.
Speaker 1: But I also learned that people really want to talk
Speaker 1: and people want to be engaged. You really get to
Speaker 1: see a person's experience through his or her own eyes
Speaker 1: when you're in their own community. Absolutely, and social media
Speaker 1: has has weaponized cruelty and given it a velocity that
Speaker 1: is unprecedented where if you're in a room and personal,
Speaker 1: it's a lot harder to do and say some of
Speaker 1: the things that get flown around online and never once
Speaker 1: you know, in the reddest county. So your question really
Speaker 1: made me nostalgic back to a time where we could
Speaker 1: have a conversation. And I also discovered that around Pennsylvanians
Speaker 1: are for this. It's not a hard left kind of
Speaker 1: niche issue. It is a populist like let's just do
Speaker 1: it already thing. You know, of course, more Democrats than
Speaker 1: Republicans but a majority of Republicans too. But what has happened,
Speaker 1: you know, as has been well documented and as we
Speaker 1: have all experienced the fore president's campaign and presidency in bold,
Speaker 1: did a lot of people to be more vocal in
Speaker 1: expressing racists and xenophobic and other very negative, hateful points
Speaker 1: of view. And that's something that your family has experienced firsthand.
Speaker 1: And Giselle, you had a particularly unfortunate experience at the
Speaker 1: grocery store this past fall. What happened there? So I
Speaker 1: do usually have the protection of stay troopers with me
Speaker 1: because of my husband's role in this time. I just
Speaker 1: was running to the grocery store, which is just three
Speaker 1: minutes from my house. I just sometimes like to go
Speaker 1: by myself because it's you want to feel normal, right,
Speaker 1: And the golden Quewis were on sale, and they those
Speaker 1: are my favorite. And I ran to get some golden
Speaker 1: Quwi's and I was in line to pay, and this
Speaker 1: woman passed and recognized me, you know, she stopped and
Speaker 1: it just began from there. She you know, yelled some slurs.
Speaker 1: She said that I don't belong here, that I'm a
Speaker 1: thief and I'm belonging in this country. And I was paralyzed.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I think I'm really good at standing
Speaker 1: up for someone else, but it's when it's for me,
Speaker 1: I just kind of freeze and just start crying. And
Speaker 1: that's what I did. And I paid quickly, and I
Speaker 1: ran off to my car and I was leaving. She
Speaker 1: followed me to the car and continued again yelling slurs
Speaker 1: at me. And it was it was a pretty terrible
Speaker 1: harbor experience of many people face UM in this country unfortunately. UM.
Speaker 1: But I you know, when it happens to you and
Speaker 1: it's so close, that hate is so close to your face,
Speaker 1: it was a lot to process. Wow, I'm so sorry
Speaker 1: that happened. How do you try to deal with that?
Speaker 1: How do you understand that? What can we all learn
Speaker 1: from that? So I cry a lot. I think that's
Speaker 1: my first thing. But you know, I tried to understand
Speaker 1: that that woman, for example, she wasn't born that way.
Speaker 1: She didn't come out of you know, into this world
Speaker 1: hating me because I was born in a different country
Speaker 1: or spoke a different language. So I have to understand
Speaker 1: that she was taught that, and I my hope is
Speaker 1: that she can be the one who breaks that cycle. Right,
Speaker 1: we want to continue to break cycles. I I thought
Speaker 1: of that incident, thinking like, my gosh, did she have children,
Speaker 1: does she have grandchildren? Is she teaching them this? So
Speaker 1: I asked that she um received support to be able
Speaker 1: to find a way out of this. I wanted her
Speaker 1: to see herself and say, I don't really like that person,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to be that person anymore, UM,
Speaker 1: and that she can be the one who breaks that cycle.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. You know. One of the hard
Speaker 1: parts though about being in public life is your kids.
Speaker 1: And I remember when Chelsea was, you know, maybe old
Speaker 1: enough to understand the conversation we were having with her
Speaker 1: five or six. We were telling her that, you know,
Speaker 1: she would hear mean things said about her daddy and mommy,
Speaker 1: and you know, she had to understand that that would happen.
Speaker 1: And she was so I could just remember a little
Speaker 1: face and her eyes getting really big. Well, why would
Speaker 1: anybody do that? Why would anybody say anything mean? And yeah,
Speaker 1: we're we're there with you. Yeah, but you have to
Speaker 1: prepare your children. And and I know that, UM, you
Speaker 1: guys have done that because I've read about how you
Speaker 1: talk to your kids and tell them that you know, sadly,
Speaker 1: this is part of the world. And when you're out
Speaker 1: in the public as you both are, you know that's
Speaker 1: going to happen. Do they understand that you think they do?
Speaker 1: They really do. They've lived it for a long time.
Speaker 1: And I don't wanna you know, I want to shield
Speaker 1: as much as I can, but I also want them
Speaker 1: to know that this is the world. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: raising them not for us. We're raising them for this
Speaker 1: world so that they can be agents to combat the
Speaker 1: rest that's out there. And I remember the night of
Speaker 1: that incident. I came home and I was really upset
Speaker 1: and crying for a few hours, and we're trying to
Speaker 1: explain what had happened to the kids because I was alone.
Speaker 1: In August, who's six, He's like, Mom, you're so adorable.
Speaker 1: How could anybody say anything to you? Like he was
Speaker 1: out age. Well he's a very perceptive child, That's all
Speaker 1: I could say. Well, so now you two have launched
Speaker 1: a new adventure because John, you have announced your running
Speaker 1: for the Senate. How did you make that decision? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean I just always want to be in a
Speaker 1: position to serve. I mean it started things in my
Speaker 1: life worked out like you know I was the product
Speaker 1: of a kind of an unplanned teenage pregnant romance, so
Speaker 1: my beginnings could have turned out one way or the other.
Speaker 1: But I was fortunate where I ended up in a
Speaker 1: place where I'm able to and I want to contribute
Speaker 1: because I just wanted to make the world a better
Speaker 1: place and pay it forward. And that's a lane that
Speaker 1: made the most sense, and that really crystallized after we
Speaker 1: got into a place with our former president doing and
Speaker 1: saying things that were beyond the pale of dismantling democracy.
Speaker 1: And I was so outraged that eight out of our
Speaker 1: nine Republican Congressional delegation members who were on the same
Speaker 1: ballot saying, you know, the voters loved me. No fraud
Speaker 1: in my race, but man, Joe Biden, you rigged it
Speaker 1: for him. The fact that there are people willing to
Speaker 1: trade political capital and temporary popularity to damage this nation's
Speaker 1: democratic franchise appalled me at a level that I never
Speaker 1: could have imagined. And I said this in jest, but
Speaker 1: it's also true that if I am the next Senator,
Speaker 1: I promised to be on Sedition free. I love that,
Speaker 1: and everyone knows I'm no fan of politics, I'm too sensitive.
Speaker 1: My heart can't handle it. Um. But for me, I
Speaker 1: think was you know, my family in Brazil, it's everyone's
Speaker 1: him to come to America always, you know, every conversation
Speaker 1: I have with them, it's like, I'll see you soon.
Speaker 1: It's this this long American dream. And when all this
Speaker 1: was happening and everything felt like it was falling apart,
Speaker 1: my family stopped saying that, They're like, we're fine here,
Speaker 1: and UM, that was a really sad moment because I
Speaker 1: love this country so much and I want them to
Speaker 1: continue to dream of of being here. And I think
Speaker 1: that's what Um. You know, my support for him full came. John.
Speaker 1: I know that after you announced your Senate campaign, an
Speaker 1: incident that happened in Braddock when you were mayor back
Speaker 1: in got some renewed attention on social media particularly, So
Speaker 1: I just have to ask you, John, what happened? So
Speaker 1: in is outside and experienced a really large and sharp
Speaker 1: burst of gunfire and there was an individual, you know,
Speaker 1: covered head to toe, couldn't tell what their race was,
Speaker 1: what there there was running from this corridor where there's
Speaker 1: been a lot of shootings over the years there and
Speaker 1: I made that split second decision I called nine one one,
Speaker 1: and I got my family in safely, and I made
Speaker 1: the decision. This was a few weeks after Sandy Hook
Speaker 1: as he as the individual was heading towards our elementary
Speaker 1: school to intercept him, didn't point the weapon against him.
Speaker 1: It was over in less than thirty seconds because the
Speaker 1: police were coming from such a short area. And the
Speaker 1: allegation was is that it was somehow racially motivated, when
Speaker 1: that just couldn't be further from the truth. What I
Speaker 1: can say, though, is is that Braddock served as my
Speaker 1: my jury after that, and they knew it had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with the race. They knew it had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with anything other than somebody rising up to
Speaker 1: intervene in a situation where there was undisputed gunfire. Multiple
Speaker 1: residents you know, attested to that. And they re elected
Speaker 1: me by a greater than three to one margin four
Speaker 1: months after this incident, and then to another term four
Speaker 1: years later, and then to lieutenant governor. And I've just
Speaker 1: said that my twenty years in Braddock, the most thing
Speaker 1: I'm most proud of is we stopped gun deaths in
Speaker 1: our community for five and a half years for the
Speaker 1: first time ever. And it has to be said, profiling.
Speaker 1: You know this history in the black community. It's a
Speaker 1: real thing, and I certainly understood that, But at no
Speaker 1: point in time was I ever aware of this individual's
Speaker 1: race or even gender based on how they were dressed
Speaker 1: and how far apart we were and how rapidly this
Speaker 1: all happened. Well, I want to bring this back to
Speaker 1: the two of you because I'm fascinated about partnership and
Speaker 1: one of my stories that I love about you, Giselle
Speaker 1: is I think it was a birthday and John asked
Speaker 1: you what you wanted, and you said you wanted a container.
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about like a little tiny container
Speaker 1: for a plant. I'm talking about a container that goes
Speaker 1: on a huge ship. And so John just kind of went, okay.
Speaker 1: I had just got a nice honorarium, which I never
Speaker 1: kept any honorariums, of course, they all went to charity.
Speaker 1: And She's like, I need I want to start this
Speaker 1: thing called the Free Store, and I'm like okay. So
Speaker 1: we would always drive by this place that creates a
Speaker 1: container offices, like you know, like out of like a
Speaker 1: legitimate ocean cargo shipping container, and the price was X
Speaker 1: and my honorarium was literally X I was like, okay, sure,
Speaker 1: here you go. And then that was what nine years ago,
Speaker 1: nine years ago, and that has become the Free Store,
Speaker 1: and she has created something that is as fine as
Speaker 1: anything that's ever been done to helping the really basic
Speaker 1: fundamental needs of the folks here. It was so the
Speaker 1: two of you kind of have educated each other about
Speaker 1: all sorts of things during your your partnership. Yes, mostly
Speaker 1: me educating him because I'm just I'm just the arm
Speaker 1: candy secretary, you know, like, well, it's a great partnership.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for, you know, one of
Speaker 1: the best memories with Grace. You know, we were waiting
Speaker 1: for your event and everything was running late because that's
Speaker 1: what happens in campaigns. And she was starving and grumpy
Speaker 1: because that's who she is, and we see you coming
Speaker 1: and I said, look, Grace, there she is and she said, great,
Speaker 1: but now I'm starving and you've got a big bag
Speaker 1: of chips from your husband, and I have the best
Speaker 1: picture of her just so to her, you are the
Speaker 1: one who fed her that day, and she she that's
Speaker 1: a great metaphor because you know that that's how I
Speaker 1: think about public service. You know, it is a process
Speaker 1: of meeting and yes, feeding all of the needs that
Speaker 1: are out there. So I just wish that both of you,
Speaker 1: you know, the very best in your you know, public
Speaker 1: and professional and personal pursuits altogether. Thank you for talking
Speaker 1: to me today. The Pennsylvania Senate election in is one
Speaker 1: of the most important contests in the country upcoming, So
Speaker 1: if you're paying close attention, as I hope you are,
Speaker 1: please come back next week. When I talked to another
Speaker 1: terrific Democrat in the race, Malcolm Kenyatta, you know, partners
Speaker 1: are great, but what if you don't have one? My
Speaker 1: next guests set out to answer that question for one
Speaker 1: very specific demographic college students stuck at home during the pandemic.
Speaker 1: Iliana Valdez is a senior majoring in computer science at
Speaker 1: Yale University. Her brother Jorge graduated from college a few
Speaker 1: years ago and now works as a software developer. This fall,
Speaker 1: they found themselves sheltering in place, so along with a friend,
Speaker 1: they came up with the idea for a new dating
Speaker 1: site called okay Zoomer and worked together to build it.
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say it's been a resounding success. Hi,
Speaker 1: Alianna and Jorgey, Welcome to the show today. Hi, thanks
Speaker 1: for having us. Well. I was so intrigued by Okay
Speaker 1: Zoomer and I wanna learn all about that. But first
Speaker 1: a little bit about the two of you, your brother
Speaker 1: and sister. I'd love to learn more about where your
Speaker 1: interest in programming came from. So I love to tell
Speaker 1: people that it started in the womb because my mom
Speaker 1: was at college studying for computer science when she was
Speaker 1: pregnant with me. But after that, like my big brother
Speaker 1: did it. So of course, like I wouldn't be like, well,
Speaker 1: it's a pretty good combination, but the two of you
Speaker 1: working together have created something new. It's called Okay Zoomer,
Speaker 1: a great name. What inspired you to do this, Eleana?
Speaker 1: How how did you even think about it? So when
Speaker 1: we got sent home, UM, a lot of my friends
Speaker 1: and I were on Facebook because that's all we had
Speaker 1: to do at home UM in quarantined, and a lot
Speaker 1: of people were posting really funny memes about not being
Speaker 1: able to have a love life anymore and not being
Speaker 1: able to find their partner before they graduate. So I
Speaker 1: remember we were like, what if we solve that problem?
Speaker 1: What did we help people find that partner before they
Speaker 1: graduate Yale or they graduate whatever university is that they're
Speaker 1: going to. And my brother was like, so quick to
Speaker 1: be on board and behind the mission. I love that, Jorge.
Speaker 1: So here, your little sister comes home from school and
Speaker 1: she says, you know, this is really bad because my
Speaker 1: friends and I are feeling really isolated. She comes to
Speaker 1: me with this Google form of people who are expressing
Speaker 1: their desire to find their match right, and it's got
Speaker 1: over ten tho sign ups on it, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how I'm going to get these people
Speaker 1: their perfect match. And one night and I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we can solve this together. Let's let's figure it out. Well,
Speaker 1: you did a lot of the programming behind Okay, Zoom
Speaker 1: or Orge. What makes it different from other dating apps?
Speaker 1: We try to not provide any means of superficial first impression,
Speaker 1: so there's no pictures on the site. Really, the only
Speaker 1: thing we're doing is giving you basic demographic information and
Speaker 1: leaving it on you to reach out to that person. Um.
Speaker 1: And another thing that's different is that we only give
Speaker 1: you a match every Friday. You know, It's not like Tinder,
Speaker 1: where you're getting an endless stream of people that you
Speaker 1: might be interested in. So really it's focusing on like
Speaker 1: making core personal relationships that are built to withstand and Iliana,
Speaker 1: You're not just making potential romantic matches, as I understand it,
Speaker 1: You're helping your fellow college students replicate the kind of
Speaker 1: random encounters they might have if they were, you know,
Speaker 1: in the dining hall or the library or walking out
Speaker 1: of a class, so that they could have a more
Speaker 1: normal life right now. Yeah, that was a big driving
Speaker 1: force behind it. I'm also a freshman counselor and a
Speaker 1: lot of our first years like have not been able
Speaker 1: to meet other people. Um, so this is definitely like
Speaker 1: something we want to apply it to. We want to
Speaker 1: make sure that, you know, students who are completely remote
Speaker 1: still get that experience of networking, because that's a huge
Speaker 1: important part of being at college. Aleana, Why do you
Speaker 1: think Okay zoomer has struck such a chord and and
Speaker 1: how many people have actually ended up using it so far?
Speaker 1: I think a huge part of what it struck such
Speaker 1: a chord is because our current apps like Tinder and
Speaker 1: stuff like that are very driven on hookups and like
Speaker 1: short term interactions, which did not survive the pandemic because
Speaker 1: we were gone and separated from each other for eight months,
Speaker 1: and so people realize, wow, maybe there needs to be
Speaker 1: a different method for me to build these like meaningful
Speaker 1: conversations before I start a relationship with someone to make
Speaker 1: sure that it's going to last. Um So that's been
Speaker 1: a huge like part of why I think it worked.
Speaker 1: And we've had over twenty thou people use it so far,
Speaker 1: and that number keeps growing. Have you gotten any testimonials
Speaker 1: that show that you're doing the right thing, You're you're
Speaker 1: really helping people during such a difficult time. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: one of my best friends actually is currently in rural Wyoming.
Speaker 1: In rural Wyoming, his tender options are like zero to none.
Speaker 1: Um So, it's definitely been a huge factor for people
Speaker 1: that they still want to date people they have things
Speaker 1: in common with, so that means they still want to
Speaker 1: date people at their respective universities. But the dating apps
Speaker 1: they're out there just aren't cutting it anymore, especially in
Speaker 1: our new globalized community that we have. It's just we
Speaker 1: know that we're going in the right direction just because
Speaker 1: we've been able to serve a lot of people who
Speaker 1: haven't been served by the current dating apps anymore. Okay,
Speaker 1: before we close, I have to ask have either of
Speaker 1: you gone on any Okay Zoomer dates. I've gone in
Speaker 1: an Okay Seemer friend date and it was awesome. Met
Speaker 1: a nice person from Princeton and check in every now
Speaker 1: and then. How about you or Unfortunately I'm out of
Speaker 1: the age demographic at this point. Well, I'm sort of
Speaker 1: hoping that as you grow and develop this new site
Speaker 1: that you expand it for ages, because it's not only
Speaker 1: college kids who need to have, you know, positive connections
Speaker 1: without the pressure of appearance being front and center and
Speaker 1: all the ideas of dating and the pressures that that brings.
Speaker 1: So I'll put it a plug for you know, expanding
Speaker 1: Okay Zoomer. I want to thank both Iliana and Jorge
Speaker 1: and really congratulate you on making such good use of
Speaker 1: the time you had during COVID to create something that
Speaker 1: can bring people together in some really good and positive ways.
Speaker 1: Thank you both very much. Thank you to check out
Speaker 1: Okay Zoomer go to Zoomer dot Love. Speaking of partners,
Speaker 1: we could not make this podcast without you our listeners,
Speaker 1: and I love hearing your stories and ideas for upcoming oos. Recently,
Speaker 1: after our episode on doing hard Things, I asked you
Speaker 1: to share some of the hard things you've had to do,
Speaker 1: and boy, I got so many wonderful responses. Anna wrote
Speaker 1: to me about how hard her parents have been working
Speaker 1: as they try to keep their small business and employees
Speaker 1: afloat during this pandemic. Sharon and so many others wrote
Speaker 1: in about dealing with loss and grief, the death of
Speaker 1: a loved one, the difficulty conceiving, caring for aging parents,
Speaker 1: and so much more. Thank you to everyone who has
Speaker 1: written in, and on a related note, for a future episode,
Speaker 1: I'll be answering questions from listeners. So if you have
Speaker 1: a question about the podcast about public service, about the
Speaker 1: skills that I have or haven't mastered during this pandemic,
Speaker 1: for example, leave us a message at mine one four
Speaker 1: four five eight one four four one. Again that's nine
Speaker 1: one four four five eight one four four one. We
Speaker 1: just asked that you try to keep it to you know,
Speaker 1: a minute or so, or if you prefer, you can
Speaker 1: email us at You and Me Both pod at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com. I really look forward to hearing from you.
Speaker 1: You and Me Both is brought to you by I
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