WEBVTT - Why Blockchain May Never Benefit Corporations 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:15.560 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.800 And I'm Tracy alliwit So, Tracy, you know one way 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:25.360 that this year, actually this month in particular, is very 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.880 different than this same month last year. Wait, it's the 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:35.160 month of November. So November versus October. No, no, no no, no, 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:44.440 November versus November. I know it has to be bitcoin, surely, right, 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.960 everyone was obsessed with bitcoin late last year. Yeah, November 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.919 last year was when I think this sort of like 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.240 mania that was already at place for several months really 0:00:55.280 --> 0:01:00.680 turned into an incredible just absolute euphoria, particular early around 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.280 Thanksgiving time. But at this time last year already I 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.520 think basically all anyone was talking about was bitcoined and 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.360 other cryptocurrencies, right, And I think we reached the record 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:16.280 for bitcoin eighteen thousand dollars or something was that in December? Yes, 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.520 I think middle of December. Now know one cares, right, 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:23.399 pretty much, nobody cares. Nothing is happening. It appears the 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.600 prices don't swing around like they used to. All the 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:31.600 speculators have probably moved on to marijuana stocks. And it's 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:35.679 just it couldn't feel more different. The overall environment surrounding 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.720 cryptocurrencies and all that than it did exactly a year ago, right, 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.600 And I don't know how many of our listeners ever 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.480 went to industry conferences where people would talk about bitcoin. Um. 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.800 But the trope, the cliche that you always heard there 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.320 was oh, I don't believe in bitcoin, but I do 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.000 believe in the underlying technology blockchain. Yes, people are still 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.000 saying that. Yes, people still say that, and they might 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.000 even be more confident in their assertions today because of 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.840 the sort of diminished cryptocurrency bubble and like, oh there's 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.000 still something here. We're sure of it. We don't really 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:12.880 know exactly how it's gonna work it, but we know 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.160 that the underlying technology is going to have all these 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:21.079 great applications like tracking shipping or tracking tomatoes or verifying 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:27.359 the provenance of pharmaceuticals or diamonds. And so people continue 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:32.840 to search for that problem that the technology could theoretically 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.320 be helpful in addressing. Yeah, my favorite project that I 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:42.440 heard most recently was Walmart putting Lettuce on the blockchain 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.640 in order to track like quality control exactly. But the 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:51.960 question is, do you really need a blockchain to track lettuce? 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.040 And I've always been kind of skeptical that, or track 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.320 tomatoes or ships or anything like that, or is this 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:01.880 really just a great buzzword where if you're sort of 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.800 like a senior level executive somewhere and you mentioned conferences 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:07.560 and you want to be at a conference and you 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.720 want to sound smart on a panel, you want to 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.040 have something going uh to say, oh, yes, of course, 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:17.840 we're actively working to incorporate blockchain. This is a pretty 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.520 open debate because first, much talk about all the people 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.200 saying blockchain not bitcoin, there doesn't seem to be many 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:28.800 actual practical examples yet in the field where someone is 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:33.040 clearly demonstrating the value of the technology now, and a 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.000 lot of the projects that we did hear about have 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.040 been quietly shelved or at least there hasn't been a 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.120 lot of tangible progress on them, or progress that we 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:44.520 are able to see exactly right. So then the question 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.520 is why haven't we seen more progress and why haven't 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.800 we uh seen some sort of tangible uh connection between 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.360 what people talk about a conferences to how businesses actually operate. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.400 And today's guest will hopefully shed some light on this 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.400 question on the Odd Lots podcast this week, we have 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.760 angers championed Krepni. He used to be a blockchain leader 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:12.040 at e Y and help companies learn about blockchain technology. 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.760 Now he is off doing independent stuff in the crypto world, 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.000 and he has a lot of thoughts on blockchain and 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:23.600 how it might or might not be of benefit two companies, 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.839 and so he has experience and looking forward to getting 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.680 his perspective Angus, thank you very much for joining us. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:31.640 Thank you very much for having me. So how many 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.640 conferences have you been at where someone said blockchain is 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:40.239 the interesting thing, not bitcoin? I I could not possibly count. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.200 And the it's funny when you mentioned November last year, 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.919 there was a glorious two week period where what I 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.920 did was cool. Prior to that, no one had any 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.760 idea what bitcoin was. After that, people very quickly found 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:54.520 someone else to talk to because that was sick of 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:58.320 hearing about it. But it's it's been it's been a 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.440 number of years, and I've got to admit I was 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.360 at one point a blockchain not bitcoin person. But as 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:06.680 you sort of alluded to, when you strip away all 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:10.120 of the hype, how does this technology actually help? And 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.200 I've founded my my work it generally doesn't. So this 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.120 is pretty big because, as you said, you used to 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:20.440 be a blockchain not bitcoin person. You should talk to companies, 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:25.239 work with them about the idea of incorporating blockchain into 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.520 their business practices. And now you say it generally doesn't. 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.159 So walk us through this stepsode. What do companies think 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.880 is going to happen when they sort of you draw 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.760 some blockchain related technology into their business, and then what 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.840 actually happens when they try. Generally, the story is that 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.680 we've got we've got a number of entities that we 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:52.960 want to all coordinate our data together, and blockchains help coordinate, 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:58.360 coordinate data, coordinate people or entities without there being some 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:02.479 sort of central party. What generally happens, though, to get 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:06.840 to that stage, you need to form some sort of consortium, 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.400 some group of players together. You need to define some 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.760 sort of standards, you need to you need to work 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:20.400 out how you how you perform governance going on, and generally, 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:24.719 when you're doing that, you form some central body to 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.200 do all of that and um. And the thing is, 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.520 by when once you've formed that central body, you've done 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:37.000 all the complex coordination that's required generally in the enterprise space. 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:42.200 Technology addressing these problems is not the It's not the 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.359 issue it's just getting really hundreds of different stakeholders on board. 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.440 Because if you're just dealing with one entity, you know, 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:54.159 one large bank, you're dealing with technology compliant operation to 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.320 the front office, there are a lot of stakeholders just 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.919 in that. So when you want to build a blockchain 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.520 across all of these various entities, the tough bit is 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:07.440 getting all of those different parties together. Once you've done that, 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.920 once you've addressed that, this is pretty inefficient technology to 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:16.520 actually use to implement the solution. Right, So the sales 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:22.120 pitch is that I can build essentially a database or 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:26.200 you know, a line of information that's immutable and that 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.800 is not controlled by a single party, and that can 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.920 exist amongst entities that maybe don't trust each other. But 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.920 you're saying that in order to get to that point, 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.440 you pretty much have to have a group of entities 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.640 that trust each other and are able to coordinate in 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.720 some sort of centralized fashion exactly. And we've got a 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.120 pretty solid legal system to ensure that people can trust 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:54.200 each other. Right. Financial institutions form contracts with each other 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:56.600 all the time, even though they will be competitors in 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.520 um in some way, and and and that where the 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.320 enforcement falls back on if you create some technology to 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.560 try to re enforce that, you're going to need to 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.440 end up relying on the legal system if someone breaks 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:14.480 those rules anyway. So why use what's fundamentally a very 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.440 inefficient technology that was developed for a very specific purpose. 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.480 Explain this because I think a lot of people who 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.120 don't know much about the space are surprised to hear 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.440 that the technology is inefficient, because the appeal is like, Oh, 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:32.040 it's going to strip out all of this legacy code 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:36.040 and it's really fast, and it's decentralized, and decentralized sounds 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.679 like a really good buzzword, and so it's very efficient, 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.280 and we imagine that there's it's gonna like strip out 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:47.040 all these like gigantic server rooms. Why are blockchains inherently inefficient? 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.200 It's a funny fallacy that that hunger that's caught on 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:55.679 from back in the earlier days of bitcoin, where the 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.959 message was we can move bitcoin or we can perform 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:04.160 payments or move value faster than the current financial system. 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:06.800 It's more efficient in the current financial system because I 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.880 can send you will send money instantly to Tracy now 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.120 who is on the other side of the world. I 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:17.200 think literally on the other side, so I could I 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.680 can send money and Tracy will have it with within 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:24.640 ten minutes. Right, Um, that sounds great, but there's a 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.880 lot of stuff in that that's not included. There's not 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:32.000 the all of the transaction monitor monitoring, anti money launching, 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:36.000 all the operational stuff that's around any bank, right, that's 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.520 around any payment system. So people realize that didn't work, 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.719 and then they said, well, if this technology can move 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.880 payments more efficiently, what else can it do more efficiently? 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.360 And then it's sort of stuck. So that was sort 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.360 of something that hung around. Now, if you have a 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:55.280 look at how bitcoin accomplishes that that movement, it's it 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.640 does a couple of things. One, if I'm sending money 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.640 or sending bitcoin to Tracy, Tracy knows that I have 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.280 sent it because she can see that it's a little 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.680 bit more complicated, but she can see that I had 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.439 that balance to send, and the rest of the network 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.800 can see that I had that balance to send. So 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.640 everyone is storing all of this information right right. And 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.600 the second piece is how does Tracy know that I 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.040 have only sent that to her and I haven't also 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:27.520 sent it to you. There's this very complex mathematical calculation, 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.080 this mining process that makes sure that I'm not doing that. 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.000 This really seems like the key thing, which is that 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:40.000 it's not just that you're sending money to Tracy, it's 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:44.240 that everyone on the entire bitcoin network is seeing you 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.080 send money to Tracy. So it's actually wildly inefficient in 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.640 a sense. It may serve a purpose, but if it's 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.120 like if I sent you an email, but the only 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.240 way I could send you an email is if everyone 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.600 in the entire world who had an email account also 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.960 got to see that, we could just see This would 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:05.920 be an extremely computationally intense process. Absolutely, and when you're 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.439 when you're sending and that's a that's a good example. 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.079 If we have a look at something like email, that's 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.480 just data, So it doesn't matter if you're the only 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:16.960 one that gets it or someone else doesn't validate that 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.280 you received it. That's just between us. If you're talking 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.520 about value, that does matter. If people are duplicating it, 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:25.920 that does matter, if people are creating more than they should. 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:31.400 So you sacrifice a lot of that computational efficiency to 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.720 solve this very specific problem, which was what bitcoin solved 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.880 in the first place. So it's been one of these 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:41.400 unfortunate things where that that initial fallacy of this efficiency, 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.160 of this speed was was sort of taken and run 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.400 with it, and people forgot that this was a very 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:52.240 niche computer science problem that was solved using, you know, 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:57.680 very complex, inefficient solution. So I believe in the world 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:02.640 before blockchain, we would call that database sprawl, right, So absolutely, 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.880 how how much of an issue is that for a 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.280 company that is trying to do a real world application 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:14.480 with blockchain? And it kind of feeds into a second 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:16.520 question that I would like to ask, which is how 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:20.040 many of the real world applications or projects with blockchain 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:24.920 we're actually distributed in a significant way, because we saw 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.520 a lot of companies announced test cases with blockchain, but 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.839 then they would say, oh, and by the way, this 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.080 is only for us, it's only on our servers, it's 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:38.800 not even decentralized. Yeah, a couple of things. Firstly, any 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:45.040 enterprise technology transformation is very costly and requires a huge 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:50.880 amount of coordination. So there's in my ten years at 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.640 the firm UM, I don't think I came across a 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:57.040 client that couldn't have benefited from one giant data warehouse 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:59.640 where all of the data is reconciled all of its 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.200 console it dated. The number that had that is very few, 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.720 just because to set up something like that is hugely 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:10.000 costly and you're you're talking multiple years for paybacks. So 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.480 these are coordinating. What technology spend is useful and what 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.880 isn't in an enterprise is the job of the CTO, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.880 and it's complex. A block chain doesn't change that. A 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.560 blockchain is still very costly to implement, just like any 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.800 other just like any other infrastructure. So the question is 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.560 if we could have done this previously with architecture that 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.480 we have that we had before blockchains, then why didn't 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.000 we Because I'm not sure it would change. A blockchain 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.200 is going to change that dynamic. The second thing is, 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:47.400 and this is worth noting, is it's neon impossible to 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:52.240 define exactly what people mean by blockchains. There's a common 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.000 thing that comes that keeps on coming up is that 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.080 in many definitions that people when people try to define 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.600 what a blockchain is, how it often doesn't differ from 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:09.800 say a Google spreadsheet UM or just an append only database. 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:14.080 Because if you start talking about distributed systems, well that's 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.560 a distributed database. UM. If you talk about decentralization. Well, 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.320 that's very that can be difficult to define because there 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.880 can be spectrums of that and people have different views 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:30.560 on exactly what is decentralization. So it's one of those 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.600 things that it's sort of got a buzzword that everyone 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:37.480 thinks they know what they're talking about when they say 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.160 a blockchain. But I've seen a lot of technologies out 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.120 there that define themselves as you know, as blockchains, that 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.440 work very, very differently. So it comes down to is 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:52.160 a blockchain just simply a chain of blocks um, In 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.200 which case it's that's just an append only database and 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.200 a pretty boring data architecture UM. But that doesn't really 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.000 address all of the clams that people say it does. 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:05.240 So another selling point of blockchain technology is that it's 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:10.239 a sort of shared database. It's replicated across participants, depending 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:12.800 you know, on how they want to use it. But 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.920 the integrity of the data is supposed to be ensured 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.880 because you're using you know, these mathematical calculations to verify 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.400 it each time, and everyone can see all the underlying 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:29.280 blocks and all of that. Is that actually true or 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:33.360 is it possible that blockchains can be gamed by a 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.680 bad actor? And that the underlying data can be manipulated. 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:41.960 The data can really almost anything in computer scidence or 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.640 in in data structures like this can be gamed. It's 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:51.040 just how difficult is it. A blockchain in this, in 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:55.160 the in the sort of bitcoin or um in that sense, 0:15:55.880 --> 0:16:01.600 is incredibly difficult to game because the data is spread 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.080 out across a lot of participants, so you've got to 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:09.080 get everyone to change it. And secondly, the software that 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.920 is adding that data is run by all of those 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.040 different systems, so you've got to go in and change 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:20.720 that software as well. So yes, it is very, very 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.520 difficult to change that data, but it's worth noting what 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:29.520 you've sacrificed to do that. In at least in enterprise systems, 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:36.080 Essentially you are giving up governance of that data structure, 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.960 and so on the plus side, you can never change 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.920 the data. On the downside, you can never change the 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.600 data if there is an error, if the software needs 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:50.200 to be upgraded, if there needs to be a format change, 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.200 any any of that sort of Any of that sort 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.920 of stuff then needs to be coordinated across every single 0:16:56.000 --> 0:17:01.880 system that's managing this. So the more complex you make, 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.639 you a technology solution using a blook chain, the bigger 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.000 the chance that something will go wrong. Yeah, well, I 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.600 was gonna say so, Like one of the things about bitcoin, 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.240 and it's a plus in a minus, which is that 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.119 if I, like send want to send you some money 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.800 or send you some bitcoin, but I accidentally like put 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:25.080 in the wrong address, then we're screwed. Like that's I mean, 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.560 maybe the person who if we can find that person 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.800 who got the money, maybe they'll be kind enough if 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:31.760 they can figure it out to reverse it, but probably 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.080 we're screwed. And so when I like hear about stuff 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.200 like we're gonna put like real estate on the blockchain, 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.520 it's like, what if, like I buy a house from 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.480 you and it turns out that at the very last 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.720 second during the closing, someone puts in the wrong address. 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:51.840 Either they were really screwed or we can reverse it, 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.480 in which case it probably wasn't really a blockchain in 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.359 the first place, you or a fat finger error. And 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.680 so yeah, and you so half the state. Yeah, it's Um. 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.240 The the other thing in real estate is a funny 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.520 one because that that also gets brought up because um, 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.840 how do you tie the blockchain to the actual real 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.399 world as well? Right, And this gets actually, so it 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:13.320 was something I want to ask, and I think it's 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.200 sort of I want to flesh out your first point, 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.320 which is that the challenge with all this stuff is 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.439 not the technology, but in getting everyone to agree. And 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.280 once you've gotten everyone to agree, then you've kind of 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.880 solved the problem that the tech is. So I'm thinking 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.600 about something like, okay, tracking lettuce on a block chain, 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:38.479 like the real challenges like who gets to scandal at us? Right, 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.560 you have to like, you can't have anyone go around 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:43.840 with a barcode and a scanner scanning let us into 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:47.840 the blockchain. Someone has to be like authorized participants to 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.160 go around with a scanner and their scanner is connected 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.600 to the database. But it seems like if you can 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.240 then all agree on who gets to have these scanners 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:59.160 and whose passwords work, then again, like you've already solved 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.120 the hard part. Absolutely, And how do you make sure 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.600 that people are scanning all the lettuces or that someone 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.840 hasn't substituted a poor let us for a good let us. 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:13.399 I'm not sure how big a problem. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.960 you know, counterfeit let us. So there is the data 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:22.359 in a blockchain in theory is perfect, but that's not 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:27.800 the data problem that that we generally have. It's on 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:32.320 the ins and out data quality doesn't happen because a 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.960 sequel server is fundamentally bad at keeping the data right. 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:42.520 It's wrong because the data the different formats between systems. Absolutely, 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:48.760 that doesn't change with the blockchain, so vegetable arbitrage aside. 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.359 I'm curious how we got to the point that we 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:57.760 began our discussion with this blockchain but not bitcoin idea, Like, 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:02.840 how did companies actually ease upon this technology as something 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.000 that was going to transform their various businesses? How did 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.520 we get to that point. It's it's a funny one 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:13.959 because the question comes up when I when I'll say this, 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.919 as people will say, well, are you telling me that 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:22.080 all of these companies are wrong? The challenge is that 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:30.040 when certainly in any sort of innovation, sometimes headlines are 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.520 you know, headlines are quite important to the business, and 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.280 you know, some of this will be sort of marketing strategies, 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.880 and some of this will be you know, just simply 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:43.320 experimentation and learning about this. If I were a major 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:47.399 financial um, if I were running a major financial institution 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.919 and everyone's telling me that this technology is going to 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:54.280 make me redundant um, I would be full to not 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:58.720 invest and explore this and with my work when I was, 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.520 when I was with the first moment um, you know, 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:06.399 with well with with all of these organizations, it makes 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.960 sense to assess this, to do your due diligence to 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:15.200 understand what this technology is and isn't. What's happened is 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.680 that some of that's really sort of caught on. And 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:22.800 so my my theory, when people start seeing press releases 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:27.280 from different organizations, when people start hearing all of these 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.479 grand promises, what's important is to demonstrate that you're doing something. 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:36.280 And there's a certain, you know, a certain level of 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:38.879 group think where there's a lot of looking sideways and 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.560 not necessarily looking, you know, looking underneath. I think there's 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:47.320 a great analogy here with the asset management industry, in 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:50.800 which there's a lot of risk to swimming against the 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.640 tide and you could get So let's just say there 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:59.240 is a world in which banking primarily goes on the blockchain. 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.679 Whatever that means. You would be taking a lot of 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:04.680 career risk and someone would probably get fired if you're 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.639 the CTO of some bank who didn't do that. Like 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:09.919 if everyone else said wow, we've we've really found a 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.080 way to like cut out all this back office and 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.000 efficiency by putting all this data on the blockchain, and 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:17.639 they're everyones reduced their costs and one bank didn't like 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.439 that CTO is in trouble. But if everyone jumps at 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.160 the same time into it and it doesn't work out, 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:26.080 then it's like, well, we invested some money, it didn't 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:28.080 work out, but no one gets into trouble. So for 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:31.359 the individual, there's a lot of pressure then to just 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.399 sort of go along with all the press releases and 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.359 all the other people. We absolutely and to be perfectly honest, 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:38.840 it's not that expensive to do it right, it's it 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.360 And so it's it makes sense to make that bet, 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:45.800 as you say, because do you do you really want 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:47.600 to stand up and say that all of these other 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:50.439 ones are wrong, because you know, on the if you 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:52.000 don't say that, like you could at least go on 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.320 a panel and sounds smart. And I say that I'm 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:56.080 only like have joking when I say that, But I 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:59.919 I often like wonder, like how much is that motive 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:04.239 ation for someone who is like a technology executive at 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:06.280 a bank. They're just like, you want to sound smart, 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:08.720 you want to be a thought leader, right yeah, And 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:13.879 and also you know, as um, while I you know, 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:17.840 I preach restraint and all with this technology, one thing 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.399 that I think it is doing, and I think this 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:22.480 is where a number of the projects are getting to, 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:29.479 is it's making institutions rethink their core infrastructure and maybe 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:32.800 start looking at making some of these investments that they 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:37.560 haven't previously because they've realized we've just been plotting along 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:41.240 for you know, ten twenty years, just doing minimal upgrades 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.119 to our technology because that's been good enough. But this 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:49.160 has made the rethink that, you know, maybe our position 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:51.360 isn't always going to be safe, and maybe we need 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:54.840 to have a real rethink of this core infrastructure, even 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.240 if it goes down the track of something centralized and 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:00.680 something that doesn't really need a blockchain. Has it really 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:04.520 sort of disrupted the technology organized nation enough that they've 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:10.040 thought about new ways of restrctfrastructure. So okay, so maybe 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:14.480 it's forcing some institutions to think about their technology infrastructure 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:16.879 in a more holistic way. But I have to ask, 0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:22.160 do you see any real world application for blockchain technology 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:26.520 where it would actually a work and be makes sense? 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:33.480 Private block chains? No? The one thing or at least 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.600 there's nothing that I can see right now. But look, 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:39.960 I could be you know, I could be wrong. There 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:42.760 is a reason why bitcoin was designed as a very 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:46.840 simple technology in that it only really transferred value and 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:51.639 had some very small, simple bits of logic for the 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:56.200