1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and you're listening to stuff Mom 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: never told you. Today, we are tackling a topic that 3 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: has been much requested by lots of y'all on Twitter 4 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: and in our inbox, and I have to say that 5 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: Bridget and I were super excited to dive into this 6 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: topic of school dress codes. I was especially excited about 7 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: it because this is one of those issues that teen 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: girls are killing it on social media over. They are 9 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: activists and creating protests and walkouts and organizing on this 10 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: issue in a way that I find just also inspiring. 11 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: UM from a you know, it warms this millennial feminist 12 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: heart to see the generation coming up after us just 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: owning this from an organizing perspective. Anything where tween girls 14 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: are leading the way in an activism situation, I'm always 15 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: for it, all about it, and I am weirded out 16 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: by the fact that after diving in a little deeper 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: into the weeds around the research behind this, I'm feeling 18 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: more torn than when I initially started. And let's back 19 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: up a little bit. We're going to unpack all of 20 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 1: the all the sort of emotional journeys that we've been on. 21 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: Both Bridget and I from UM are sort of political 22 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: perspectives on weather dress codes are a good thing or 23 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: not for high schools, uh and for high school age 24 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: girls in particular. But I just want you to know 25 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: that this is an issue that I thought was a 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: lot more clear cut, which is not at all clear cut. 27 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: And I think that's part of what makes this such 28 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: a hot button issue that I'm so excited to dive 29 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: in on. So let's start by just looking back at 30 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: why so many schools across the United States in particular 31 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: have implemented dress codes to begin with, This was a 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: thing that became really really in vogue in the nineties 33 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: and two thousands, the odds, especially in part due to 34 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: the tragic rise of school shootings and the rise of 35 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: gang violence in high schools, and so in the nineties, 36 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: dress codes began to be more commonly implemented in the 37 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: public school arena, not just their Catholic school counterparts, which 38 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: public schools found themselves being compared to um when it 39 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: came to parents looking at school choices UM. So public 40 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: schools wanting to be competitive in that arena, wanting to 41 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: keep their students safe, uh and and sort of reduce 42 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: gang violence from being more of a thing in school 43 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: shootings and all that crazy goth stuff that we were 44 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: all into, UM ball chain necklaces and Jengo jeans and 45 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: as exactly so, so the rise of the school uniform 46 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: or the school dress code to different things, right bridget 47 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: which we want to differentiate between UM. So, according to 48 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: these proponents behind the pushing of school uniforms, they were 49 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: going to prevent gang violence, encourage discipline, helps students resist 50 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: peer pressure, and when it comes to buying trendy clothes 51 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: that limited to or wherever, helping identify intruders in the school. 52 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: This was especially true after the rise of or after 53 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: the Columbines shooting, which was associated with what was known 54 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: as the trench Coat Mafia. So there was a clothing 55 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: element to that act of extreme violence that also added 56 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: to the anxiety around school dress. This also belies the 57 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: intent of diminishing economic and social barriers between students and 58 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: increasing a sense of belonging and school pride and attendance 59 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: at school. So there's this association between discipline and the 60 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: school dress code. So I know that this episode is 61 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: about dress codes, but I went to a school with 62 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: uniforms for pretty much most of my life, and I 63 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: actually love my uniform, And I found all of these 64 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: things to be the case. All of the positives that 65 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: proponents of UM school uniforms and strict dress codes say, 66 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: I found to be the case of my uniform. UM. 67 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: I don't know. We didn't really have a gang issue 68 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: that I was aware of in my school, but it 69 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: definitely made me less self conscious about the clothing that 70 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: I chose because I wasn't a very trendy dresser, and 71 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: so I really liked just having that be eliminated from 72 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: the dynamics of school. Right you already are dealing with 73 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: so much in terms of who's popular, who's not, who's rich, 74 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: who's not. Having uniforms for me totally helped eliminate those 75 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: barriers a little bit, like the equalizing Exactly what was 76 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: your uniform like? So we had UM it was a 77 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: Catholic school, so we had a plaid skirt, UM a 78 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: white Oxford. Mine was always oversized. I don't know if 79 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: that was a choice or my mom just I couldn't 80 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: be bothered. UM a green It was either a green 81 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,119 Speaker 1: pullover or cardigan sweater and UM knee socks and brown 82 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: tie shoes. And on special events you had to wear 83 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: your dress uniform that was Oxford shoes and a green blazer. 84 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: And I lost my blazer sophomore year and I got 85 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: so many detentions because of it. I never had it 86 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: when I needed it, all right, So I mean that's 87 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: a pretty typical schoolgirl uniform, isn't it. And part of 88 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: my beef with all of this stuff uniforms and dress 89 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: codes is that it boils down to, here's how we 90 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: approve of women's appearance in public. This is what a 91 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: woman must look like. This is what a young woman 92 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: or a girl must look like. And all the reasons 93 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: I hate it when people benevolently police our speech is 94 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: part of what I hate about the focus on a 95 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: woman's physical appearance as being not only this benevolent. Let 96 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: me help you avoid boys unwanted attention by telling you 97 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: how to cover up your god given body, and and 98 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,679 Speaker 1: this is somehow putting the blame on you as a woman. 99 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: But also it's just like, focus on what I'm trying 100 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: to say here, people focus on what's coming out of 101 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: my brain. I'm a student, I'm here to learn. Please 102 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: stop objectifying me, even if you're a well intentioned school teacher. Right, 103 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: it just makes it. It dehumanizes you for a second. 104 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: It takes you out of that learning environment and says, oh, 105 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: I'm only your shorts are too short. Yeah, And just 106 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: going back to what I was saying, if I was 107 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: had my own school, I would definitely have uniforms. But 108 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: in order to avoid the thing that you were just 109 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: saying all of the gross sexist, weird stuff that comes 110 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: from the strictly enforced school dress policies, I think it'd 111 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: be great if schools adopted unisex uniforms. A lot of 112 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: the schools in d C d CPS, you just wear 113 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: kind of loose fitting cat loose fitting khaki pants and 114 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: an oversized polo. Everybody wears that. I think that's better 115 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: than just even even though I loved my uniform. That's 116 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: better than saying, oh, girls in public should be in 117 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: a blazer in a skirt. How girls in public should 118 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: show up that they are dressed for learning even though 119 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: I really liked my uniform. That's interesting. I also find 120 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: it interesting when it comes down to the issue of 121 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: free speech. So these I these dress codes, this strict 122 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: adherence to certain dress codes has not always held up 123 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: in court because it really boils down to restricting students 124 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: right to free speech, which is a constitutionally protected right 125 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: in the United States. And I should note this is 126 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: really only true for the public school arena, because private 127 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: schools can do whatever they want. Right, No one's forcing 128 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: you to go to private school. But in two thousand 129 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: and seven, the U. S. Supreme Court upheld a lower 130 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: court's decision to let a Vermont's student wear a T 131 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: shirt that depicted President Bush surrounded by drug and alcohol images. 132 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: Oh I wish I could see the shirt. It related 133 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: to his glory days of doing cocaine. It was so 134 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: the school said, this shirt is all about drug references, 135 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: and the students said, no, this is a political message. 136 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: And the Supreme Court wayed in saying that the kid 137 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: was right and that this was part of his freedom 138 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: of speech and that it wasn't about inciting or encouraging 139 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: drug use, which is part of the nuance here. Interestingly, 140 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: the major cases on these issues have always dealt with 141 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: men or boys, which I thought was interesting. So that's 142 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: not girls students who are being defended and upheld. It's 143 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: boys making some sort of statement with an edgy shirt. Exact, 144 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: got it? And maybe that's changing. I sure hope it is. 145 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: But the major cases that have been dealt with on 146 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court level, especially in the two thousand's, really 147 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 1: had to do with high school male students UM T 148 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: shirt messages themselves. So in both cases the one I 149 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, in a later case that came out of 150 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: the San Diego High school when they suspended a student 151 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: for wearing an anti gay T shirt message. The school 152 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: argued that the T shirt was hateful and inflammatory, but 153 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court basically vacated or set aside the vision 154 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: of a lower court that upheld the students right to 155 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: wear that UM, saying it was his freedom of speech. Well, 156 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: that I find I find so interesting is that, and 157 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: I think we talked more about this later on, But 158 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: girls who are getting in trouble at school because they're 159 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: wearing a spaghetti strapped tank top, they're sort of being 160 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: punished for their bodies. These are boys who are wearing 161 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: shirts that have messages on them that you know, it's 162 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: their right to wear it. Courts that determined in terms 163 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: of free speech right. But it's interesting to me that 164 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: they are the ones who are having their rights reaffirms 165 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: that upheld, and young women who are you know who 166 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: is re affirming they're right to have their shoulders out. 167 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: Well luckily tween right now, because this this is all 168 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: done under the guise of helping students create a safe 169 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: space for learning where they can focus on education, and 170 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: that's you know, that is the intent behind a lot 171 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: of these rules. But the outcome is that women's body 172 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: are policed in a way that men's bodies are not. 173 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: And on top of it all, it completely locks the 174 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: schools into this binary concept of gender. So we have 175 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: to acknowledge for our non binary gender conforming folks that 176 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: school uniform policies and strict dress codes really erase their 177 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: ability to be have their freedom of speech upheld and respected, 178 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: um when they're not dressing according to what the male 179 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: dress code should be is or proclaims is the right 180 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: way for a little boy to address. So the first 181 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: part of this that I think is important for us 182 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: to acknowledge is whether or not the intent to create 183 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: a safelowning environment is actually being upheld. Is that what 184 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: school uniform policies are actually doing now. Like Virginia draw 185 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: who is an assistant professor at Youngstown State University, I 186 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: went into this process and to the research process for 187 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: this podcast, thinking that school uniforms did really do that 188 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: at all, thinking that they didn't actually help students focus. 189 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: But as she says, after doing her research, she says, quote, 190 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: I came away seeing that they do, at least at 191 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: these schools, they do, and I was absolutely floored. In 192 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: her research, which reviewed sixty four public high schools in Ohio, 193 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: she concluded that schools with uniform policies improved attendance, graduation, 194 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: and reduced suspension rates. She was unable to connect uniforms 195 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: with academic improvement because lots of other conflicting variables around, 196 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: like changing instructional methods and curriculum, but uniformly, to put 197 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: it that way, she did find a connection between creating 198 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: those kinds of disciplined, focused student environments and school uniforms. 199 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: Having grown up mostly wearing uniforms, it doesn't surprise me 200 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: at all. Um. I can't speak for the suspension rate 201 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 1: or anything like that, because my uniform actually was a 202 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: source of discipline for me, often forgetting things or not 203 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: having things I'm supposed to have on certain days. But 204 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: I think attendance is so important because if you get 205 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: up and you're often running late, like I was pretty 206 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: much every single day of my life, and still I am. 207 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: If you know that you just have to grab a 208 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: wrinkled skirt from the bottom of your closet, it's the 209 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: same skirt every day. In fact, I used to when 210 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: I was in high school. I would sleep in a 211 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: pair of boxer shorts, and I would keep my uniform 212 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: in the car, so I would wear boxer shorts under 213 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: my unifor I would just basically put the skirt out 214 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: in the car so I had to. I woke up, 215 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: you know, five minutes before the alarm and did nothing 216 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: to get dressed, and that really did help me get 217 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: to school on time and more often. It's an interesting 218 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: dichotomy between a lack of choice and the freedom from 219 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: not having to make that that's that's tough for me. 220 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: I'm having trouble, like I feel very um ambivalent over 221 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: this now in a way that I didn't when I 222 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: first started. When you first started, what did you think 223 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: about I thought dress codes were total bunk. Here's the thing. 224 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: I still feel that they are in the way that 225 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: they're actually policed, in the way that they're actually enforced. 226 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: But you can't argue with the positive facts here they 227 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: say that the research is muddled. They say that the 228 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: research is inconclusive. And that's true insofar as there are 229 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: other researchers, like assistant professor at the University of Missouri 230 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: David Bresma, who in his two thousand and four books 231 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: reached totally different conclusions, saying that there's no positive correlation 232 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: between uniforms and school safety or uniforms and academic achievement. 233 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: But then I see stats like this one from uh 234 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: Nevada Middle Schools in two thousand and eight and two 235 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, where researchers at the University of Nevada 236 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: Reno set out to find out what a thousand, three 237 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: fifty seventh and eighth graders thought about the implementation of 238 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: school a dress codes. Now here's the thing. Even though 239 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: like me, the majority of students reported that they disliked 240 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: wearing uniforms, so this is not a dress code, to 241 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: be clear, this is a uniform policy. Fifty four percent 242 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: of them agreed that they could still express their identity 243 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: freely while wearing a uniform. Fifty agreed that uniforms saved 244 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: their families money, which is an important class consideration here, 245 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: but only said that there was less gaining activity, so 246 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: the students perception of violence not a big deal, saying 247 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: uniforms were not strongly you know, related to gain violence. 248 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: That said, when the researchers looked into school discipline and 249 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: local police records and compared them to the prior years data, 250 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: discipline referrals were down ten percent and there were sixty 251 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: three percent fewer police log reports graffiti, fights, and gang 252 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: related activity. Again, that doesn't surprise me at really. I 253 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: just I feel like when I and again I know 254 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: uniforms and we're talking about dress codes, but but we're 255 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: now you could have dovetailed into uniforms, but they're sort 256 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: of related. I think when I wore my uniform, it 257 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: was just very clear to every but that we were 258 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: there to learn, and we weren't like, we weren't there 259 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: to hang out with friends, or it wasn't the mall, 260 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: that wasn't after school activities. It was school. And I 261 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: think in general, a Catholic school setting is very can 262 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: be very regimented and very disciplined, and having that being 263 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: reinforced in your clothing just made that easier to internalize. 264 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: I think, and again I'm speaking purely from my personal experience, 265 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: so other folks probably very much. Do you have different 266 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: opinions about this topic, But these numbers don't lie, and 267 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: they don't surprise me at all. Yeah, I mean, I 268 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: really would like to see what else was happening in 269 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: these communities during those years of just go change, because 270 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: maybe there were confounding effects that were unrelated to gaining activities. 271 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: It's hard for me to think that this is as 272 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: simple as changing your outfit and it changes your whole 273 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: philosophy around violence, but maybe not. I was a public 274 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: school kid my entire life up until college, and for me, 275 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: I distinctly remember always feeling like I was gambling with 276 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: my school outfit of the day because I was a 277 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: tall I am a tall kid with long legs, and 278 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: I came to learn very early that shorts that would 279 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: get my shorter classmates not in trouble I were forbidden 280 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: for me to wear. So what that made me intensely 281 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: aware of is that my body was the problem. And 282 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: I was sent home on multiple occasions, and I distinctly 283 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: remember being called out of class and I'm thinking, who 284 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: the hell reported me? Right? Who reports me? I'm in 285 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: math class? Like, I don't frankly want to be here either, 286 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: but you're gonna pull me out of class, Have me 287 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: sit in the principal's office, Have me call my parents, 288 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: who have jobs and we're busy working and could be 289 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: doing lots of better things than fetching me a pair 290 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: of more appropriate shorts from school. Make me feel ashamed 291 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: that entire time I'm sitting there, and then make my 292 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: dad feel embarrassed, like I remember seeing that shame internalized 293 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: by my own father who brought me this pair of 294 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: shorts in the middle of the school day, and sort 295 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: of like I think he wanted to apologize on my behalf, 296 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, And I think it 297 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: really messed me. I don't like that feeling. I don't 298 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: have that either. And I think, for as much as 299 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: it sounds like I'm saying, ra ra school uniforms, RARA 300 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: dress codes, I think, even if the data shows that 301 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 1: dress codes or school uniforms can improve schools in all 302 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: these different ways, what difference does it make if these 303 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: wardrobe changes show all these improved benefits for schools, if 304 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,360 Speaker 1: they are implemented in ways that are sexist, shame inducing, 305 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: growth that prevent you math student Emily from getting the 306 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: full day's math instruction that prevent your dad from having 307 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: to be able to, you know, complete his work day, 308 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 1: and that our shame inducing for both you and him. 309 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: See I guess you arguing for my side of this debate. 310 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: I just see that. I just see the new one. 311 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: So let's talk more about all the potential negative ramifications 312 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: of school uniforms and dress codes after a quick break, 313 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,719 Speaker 1: so we're back, and we have to unpack not just 314 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: the purported benefits of school uniforms in strict dress codes, 315 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: but also what some of these negative, less easily measured 316 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: ramifications might be. Because for all the research out there 317 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: on school uniforms and dress codes, I have not seen 318 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: enough research on how this can potentially negatively impact women's 319 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: sense of self and the messages that we're actually giving 320 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: to all students when we tell women that they need 321 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: to cover up their bodies in a way that we 322 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: don't always tell men they have to do. So, the 323 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: first negative implication to me is that this actually makes 324 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: little girls and women students like me and math class 325 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: in seventh grade much more conscious of our bodies, and 326 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: it makes us feel self conscious because defining what's considered 327 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: quote offensive or inappropriate is where schools can promote prejudiced policies, 328 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: even if those biases aren't intentional. They're saying that for 329 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: students who attend schools like the Woodford County High School, 330 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: where women's shoulders cannot be exposed and anything that reveals 331 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: their collar bone is deemed too inappropriate or somehow offensive, 332 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: you know, we're really making girls feel self conscious, ashamed, 333 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: and uncomfortable in their own bodies, which I find to 334 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: be a huge problem. It is a huge problem. And 335 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: that goes into another big drawback of dress codes in 336 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: school uniforms is that they imply that girls are responsible 337 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: for not quote, distracting male counterparts and that men are 338 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: entitled to their bodies. And I found this quote about 339 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: Woodford County schools to be very very telling. It is 340 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: not really the formal dress code by itself that's so discriminatory. 341 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: It's the message behind the dress code. My principle constantly 342 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: says that the main reason for it is to create 343 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: a distraction free learning zone for our male counterparts. And 344 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: that's really, at the end of the day, what it 345 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: comes down to for me. We should not be implementing 346 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: the school policies that make women and women identified students 347 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: feel like it is their job to do anything in 348 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: order to help male students not be distracted. Male students 349 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: are responsible for their own reactions. If you are a 350 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: boy and you can't handle sitting in math class next 351 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: to Emily and her shot, that is on you. That 352 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: is a personal problem, and you need to figure it 353 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: out because it's on you to graduate, not her. And 354 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: I think these policies they do make it seem like, oh, 355 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: little Johnny can't help it. It's up to you to 356 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: change your behavior, change how you show up, and a 357 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: lot of times change your own comfort to make sure 358 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: that little Johnny can pass me exactly. And it perpetuates 359 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: this idea that boys will be boys, which is patronizing 360 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: and insulting quite frankly to the free will of men 361 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: and boys out there, And it also does them a 362 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: disservice in my opinion, of giving them this sense of 363 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: entitlement over women should be punished for their behavior vier 364 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: that incites bad behavior on men and boys parts. It 365 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: makes sense, It makes total sense. It reminds me so 366 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: much of the episode we did around nipples, where in 367 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: certain in one county, even though it was legal for 368 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: women to be topless. The police tried to stop them 369 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: from doing so because they were worried about the reaction 370 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: of male motorists. And again, male motorists, they are responsed. 371 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: They're the ones driving cars. They are responsible for their 372 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: own ability to drive a car. If they see a 373 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: woman topless and they crash their car, that is on them. Yes, 374 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: I think teen Vogue put it brilliantly, as teen Vogue 375 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: has a way of doing when they really asked, like, 376 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: what message are we sending to boys anyhow with this stuff. 377 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: Emily Lyndon put it perfectly when she wrote in teen 378 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: Vogue saying, you know what, I agree, boys probably will 379 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: find your body to be a distraction during class. Boys 380 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: are sexually curious as our people of all genders. No 381 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: matter what, we are going to be distracted by each 382 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: other's bodies sometimes. But why is that a problem. At 383 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: some point, boys are going to need to learn how 384 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: to be productive despite the presence of female bodies. They're 385 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,719 Speaker 1: going to need to figure out how to be seated 386 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: next to someone with cleavage and still write that paper, 387 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: finish that math problem, set or do whatever it is 388 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: they have to get down without losing their cool. They 389 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: need to learn to manage distractions, but more importantly for everyone, 390 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: they need to learn to manage what they do when 391 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: they find themselves turned on by another person's body. There's 392 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: no avoiding it throughout their lives. Straight boys are going 393 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: to be turned on by women they see on the street, 394 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 1: coworkers and acquaintances. They need to be able to recognize 395 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: those feelings and then decide not to act on them. 396 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 1: And I think that's exactly it. You know, in life 397 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: as adults, we are distracted by each other. We live 398 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: in a society. I don't like this message that we're 399 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: sending boys that they can sort of pluck out these distractions, 400 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: whether they're sexual distractions or other correct distractions. We live 401 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: in a society. You have to learn how to deal 402 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: with it. I am distracted all the time by bodies, 403 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,239 Speaker 1: by other things, and you know what I do. I 404 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: deal with it. And I don't think we should be 405 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: teaching boys to expect the society will cater to them 406 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: and their desires and distractions exactly. And it also sends 407 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: this message to little boys that we assume their naturally predatory, 408 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: which is disingenuous and not a good message to reinforce that, oh, 409 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: we don't expect you to have free will or self control. 410 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: You know that it's sort of justifies. It's like the 411 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: person who asks after someone reports being raped, well, what 412 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: were you wearing? Right? And I also think, honestly, if 413 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: you impact this enough, it's really insulting to boys. It 414 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: really does not send the message that boys can be respected, 415 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: that boys can be free agents of their own desires 416 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: and wills. It assumes that they're not to just be 417 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: in society the way anyone else is exactly, which is insulting. 418 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: It is insulting. And talk about learning disruptions. If we 419 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: want to help boys stay focused in this case, or 420 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: help all students stay focused, does pulling people out of 421 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: class because of dress code violations really achieve that end? 422 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: I mean, do you remember when you were in school 423 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: and someone would come in to give a note to 424 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: the teacher. The whole would be like, everyone stop and 425 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: look at someone's getting a note, Like the whole class 426 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: will come crashing down. As a former teacher, those kinds 427 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: of things are distractions. It's a distraction for the teacher, 428 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: for the person pulled out of class who's missing thirty 429 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: minutes of math or whatever, and for the students around you. 430 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: Everyone's time to be better spent on other things. Exactly. 431 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: In some instances, these girls were not only pulled from 432 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: class and asked to change, but if their parents couldn't 433 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: take the entire day off, some schools have them sit 434 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: in detention for the rest of the school day to 435 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: keep them from distracting their male counterparts. Because what they're 436 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: actually saying by that is her education is less of 437 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: a priority than the education of the boys who could 438 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: possibly be distracted. And that just to add another wrinkle 439 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: of enragement on that. For me, that seems so classist, 440 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: right if you were the kind of student who your 441 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: your parents doesn't have the kind of job or they 442 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: can just go or you know, maybe they give you 443 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: if you're if your parent is a is a low 444 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: wage worker and can't doesn't have the kind of job 445 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: where they can just decide to leave and come get 446 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: you or whatever, you are then forced to sit in detention. 447 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: So compared to that to a classmate who already has 448 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: the privilege of having a parent stay at home and 449 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: not work. Your parent can come and bring you an 450 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: extra pair of shorts, and you get to go back 451 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: to math class and go back to learning. But the 452 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: student who doesn't have that kind of home life, they 453 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: don't they have to sit in detention for the rest 454 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: of the day. Schools are supposed to be the great 455 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: equalizer of opportunity exactly. That's what you're what you're saying, 456 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: which is if we're going to actually provide a level 457 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: playing field for students through public education, we have to 458 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: live true to that and understand where classism can impact 459 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 1: the execution of that intention behind public education exactly. That 460 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: that's what I think is is troubling me so much. 461 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: It's the way that it's not not an equal playing 462 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: field along the lines of gender, along the lines of class. 463 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: It's very clear to me that there's a hierarchy of 464 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: who this works best for, and that is seemingly male students, 465 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: and who this doesn't work out for exactly. And I'm 466 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: sure parents listening and know the drill of you know, 467 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: having kids does sometimes mean getting that call in the 468 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: middle of the day from the principal's office or getting 469 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: the call from the school nurse when you have a 470 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: child who needs to be picked up right. It's like 471 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: of all the challenges that working parents face in today's society, which, 472 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: by the way, our work lives do not always cater 473 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: to parents needs and do not always understand when a 474 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: parent needs to pick up a sick child who's in 475 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 1: need of retrieval for a real, legit medical emergency. We 476 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,959 Speaker 1: have to add this to the plate of working parents. 477 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: We have to add this on top of everything else 478 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: that schools are are deciding as a priority for parents 479 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: to worry about. It just seems not essential, and it 480 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: seems to me more of a distraction from their education 481 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: than the idea of creating a less distracting environment. And 482 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: also the shame that these girls, primarily who are pulled 483 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: from class experience can be doubly traumatic. Not only are 484 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: you missing out on your education, but you're then sitting 485 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: in the principal's office or some of these schools forced 486 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: those girls to wag a big oversized T shirts that 487 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: have lettering on them saying dress code violator. That is 488 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: some scarlet letter style exactly. And it gets even worse 489 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: around prom season. Jessica Valenti, one of my favorite writers 490 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: who shared this take in her column for The Guardian UK, 491 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: writes of a young woman in Virginia who was kicked 492 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: out of her prom because the father's attending the event 493 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 1: thought her dress was giving rise to quote impure thoughts. 494 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: What the hell this is a seventeen year old girl 495 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: who is sent home from her prom because a bunch 496 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: of leering dads were getting turned on like I had growth. 497 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: Every one of those dads needs to be like investigated 498 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: or something. I also can't imagine being a champerone as 499 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: a parent at an event like prom and have something 500 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: to say about a minor in that way. I can't 501 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: even wrap my head around. Now that's someone's well, this 502 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: is super, super real and common now. At prom in 503 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, and staff at Bingham High School in South Jordan, 504 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: Utah turned away a dozen girls whose dresses they deemed 505 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: to show too much skin. Even the girls who were 506 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: allowed to attend the dance had to go through the 507 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: ordeal of being scrutinized and judged because they were girls. 508 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: They write in teen Vogue about a hundred girls total 509 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: were stopped and examined. During this examination, they were like 510 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: told to raise their arms and turn around and like 511 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: bend over. This is not a prison cell, people, They're 512 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: not being searched, Okay, They're treated like criminals who are 513 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: already expected to be in violation and then having to 514 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: put on this disgusting performance in front of teachers who 515 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: are then judging how slutty their students are, and what 516 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: a stupid thing to like How is that not like? 517 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: How is that not setting teachers up to feel uncomfortable 518 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: and students to feel uncomfortable. I feel like, if you 519 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: don't feel uncomfortable in that situation, something up, Like if 520 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: you were like, oh, yes, my favorite part of prom 521 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: when the girls jiggle and see if a boom pops out, 522 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: you should be in a school exactly. I just think 523 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: what's awful is that the reason why these young ladies 524 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: are going through that is just for being a woman, 525 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,959 Speaker 1: just for having a body. And I think, you know, 526 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: we wonder where we get these really messed up ideas 527 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: that we internalize about our bodies. We wonder where they 528 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: come from their rained in all levels of our society. 529 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely bridget And one of the final negative impacts that 530 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: I really want to make sure we cover today is 531 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: the fact that dress codes like this completely erase the 532 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: presence of non gender conforming students. It forces a false 533 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: binary on student administrators who have to enforce this stuff 534 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: as well as make it even more uncomfortable and challenging 535 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: for students who identify as trans or students who don't 536 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: conform to the gender binary. Furthermore, according to a recent 537 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: study from the Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network LGBT, students 538 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: will prevented from wearing clothing that were thought to be 539 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: from another gender, and that number was even higher for 540 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: trans students, nearly of whom have been prevented from wearing 541 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: clothes that differed from those designated for their legal sex. 542 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: That is outrageous to me. And again, we live in 543 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: a world where our world is diverse. We fall along 544 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: a you know, the spectrum of genders and the spectrum 545 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: of the way that we present this idea that you 546 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: can be that cut and dry with if you are this, 547 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: you wear that is so backward exactly. Transgender students nationwide 548 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: have been sent home for wearing clothing different than what's 549 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: expected of their legal sex, and others have been excluded 550 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: from yearbooks. And this includes male students who were adhering 551 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: to the female dress code violation standards in the research. 552 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: In Preparing for Today, I read about a transgender student 553 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: who was dressing up for a thematic day a throwback 554 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: Thursday Day, and he came in wearing a full wig 555 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: and address of sort of a throwback to nineteen fifties fashion. Notably, 556 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: the dress did cover his collar bone, and it the 557 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: skirt was beyond his knees. So even though it conformed 558 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: to the kinds of dress code rules that the girls 559 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: in the school, or those who identified as girls were 560 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: conforming to, he was still sent home by administrators. See again, 561 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: sometimes it seems like it's really not about helping kids 562 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: focus or making kids more safe. It's a putative thing 563 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: that's about reinforcing this very rigid set of gender ideals. Exactly. 564 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: That's what it's really about. It has something to do 565 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: with this arbitrary Oh if you can see, you're this 566 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: part of your body or that part of the body 567 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: who have to go home. It's about reinforcing this really 568 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: really rigid understanding of gender. And now these kinds of 569 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: dress codes are instituted in over half of public schools 570 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: across the United States. So when we come back from 571 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: a quick break, we're going to talk through what the 572 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: teens are doing to make a change on this front, 573 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: and how you can actually implement a dress code without 574 00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: being a jerk, We'll be right back, and we're back, 575 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: and we are excited to talk through how teen girls 576 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: are going to save us all. Really, and teen girls 577 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: have been at the forefront of the pushback that is 578 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: rising and in the main streaming of feminism on high 579 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: school campuses nationwide. One of the ways in which teams 580 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,959 Speaker 1: are pushing back on dress codes that are unfairly sexist 581 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: in how they're implemented, or anti trans students and anti 582 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: LGBTQ students is by using social media in a really 583 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: powerful way. Tweens and social media I would have thought exactly. 584 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: For evidence of this, just check out the hashtag I 585 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: Am more than a Distraction, which pulls up on Twitter 586 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: a ton of photos of students who are dressed seemingly 587 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: appropriately in a way that I wouldn't find distracting and 588 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: sent home nonetheless, So this is how parents as well 589 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: as students are saying, look at me like, this is 590 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: what gets me a high school seventeen year old girls 591 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: sent home from school, and I think when you see 592 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: some of these outfits, that's when it really becomes enraging. 593 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: One story that I could not wrap my brain around 594 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: was a student at Hickory Ridge High School in Harrisburg, 595 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: North Carolina, who at a four point or GP at 596 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: to full right to college. Who she was wearing. And 597 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, if you look at the picture, it's fine. 598 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: It's a peasant top that kind of shows her collar 599 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: bone and kind of shows a little bit of shoulder, 600 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: basically wearing this completely fine outfit. Because of what she 601 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: was wearing, a police officer accosted her, threatened her with 602 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: arrest with his hand on on his gun. Right, it's 603 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: important to point out she of course as a woman 604 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: of color, so that's also part of it. And she 605 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: was threatened with having her scholarship revoked for wearing for 606 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: daring to wear a peasant top, right, I mean, they 607 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: actually gave her a two week suspension. She wasn't allowed 608 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: to graduate, and that put her scholarship at risk totally, 609 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: which is unbelievable that this is a girl who, by 610 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: the way, she was asked by an administrator to come 611 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: to the office at while she was eating lunch in 612 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: the cafeteria when this all went down. She didn't have 613 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: a blazer to put on, but her friend did, so 614 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: she got her friends blazer and put it on, and 615 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: they still treated her like a criminal. It's just disgusting 616 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: how this is being implemented. Yeah, And I think one 617 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: of the reasons why this I Am more than a 618 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: distraction hashtag is so powerful to me is that it 619 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: reinforces how punitive and arbitrary a lot of these policies 620 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: can be. Exactly exactly And remember that story about prom 621 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: where the women were paraded outside of prom and had 622 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: to walk through the gauntlet of being slut shamed by 623 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: their own administrators and school teachers. Well, that instance prompted 624 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: Sierra Gregorson to not only put up a change dot 625 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: org petition, but also to stage a walk out with 626 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: more of a hundred of her classmates to bring attention 627 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: to just how disgusting it was to be treated like 628 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: a sex object and few like you were being judged 629 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: as a sex object by your own teachers, in school 630 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: mates and classmates. And despite the media attention that was 631 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 1: garnered around these protests and these changed dot org petitions, 632 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: and how much this has spread like wildfire. In Sire's case, 633 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: you never really heard back from her administration. As happy 634 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: as I am to see these students really making a 635 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: lot of noise and advocating for themselves in this way, 636 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: it really shouldn't be up to them to create policies 637 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: that aren't awful. Um, And so what are some of 638 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: the ways that people can be better about dress codes 639 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: and uniforms and not how that be this awful, sexist, 640 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: gross experience for students exactly. I think that's a great question, Bridget, 641 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: because the the use of school dress codes can be 642 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: done well. Even teen Vogue admits as such the end 643 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: of their article on this Emily Rights listen quote. Not 644 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 1: all dress codes are harmful. Some schools have gender neutral 645 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: uniforms or guidelines that aim to teach students about what 646 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: will likely be expected of them once they leave school. 647 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: After all, our workplace guidelines for how to dress appropriately 648 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: at work that people have to learn about as well. Um, 649 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: She says, even adults adhere to certain unwritten dress codes 650 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,919 Speaker 1: in different areas of life. So some of the ways 651 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: that schools can do this right is to first involve 652 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: students and parents early on in the formation of school 653 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: dress codes, and don't let one slut shaming parent like 654 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: decide to write the dress code for you. I think 655 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: this is absolutely something that gets more buy in from students. 656 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: When students are more involved in the decision making process 657 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: and the formulation of these rules. Another thing to consider 658 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: is removing really harmful language from policies, words like distraction again, 659 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: words that are going to make certain students feel like 660 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: their presence, their body something is wrong with them. Taking 661 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: those words out of the equation altogether. It can be 662 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: a great way of forming dress code policies that are 663 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: not harmful, toxic, and stupid exactly and taking out the 664 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: gender binary to exactly where you're at, and not holding 665 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 1: people who identify as women or girls to a totally 666 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: different standard it as boys. Right, just treat students like students, 667 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: that's what they are. I think it's especially important to 668 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: educate teachers, especially when it comes to things like gender 669 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: nonconforming students. Right. Teachers should know how to deal with 670 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: this in ways that aren't awful in toxic, that what 671 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: might seem innocuous and benevolent might actually make a student 672 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable because they're being objectified totally. And you really 673 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: never know what thing you could say that's going to 674 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: stick with a student for years. You don't know, some 675 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: something you might not even be thinking about can be 676 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: can be really shame inducing and harmful to a kid. Exactly, 677 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: not to mention distract from their ultimate goal, which is 678 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: to learn from you. They're at school to learn, So 679 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: treating all students with that level of respect is really 680 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: critically important. Yeah, and again, like I was saying earlier, 681 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: my ideal school uniform would have been one that's gender neutral. 682 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: I think gender neutral school uniforms can be is a 683 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: great alternative to having uniform policies that, you know, make 684 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: it very gendered. I think that's a great way to 685 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: do it in a way that's not so awful. Yeah, 686 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: I have I Still I don't think I can get 687 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: on board with uniforms. Still, I think you can be 688 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: chill about not objectifying students bodies without everybody having to 689 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: look the same. So there's a party of me that 690 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: just I see where you're coming from. But I also 691 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: find it unnecessary and impractical to the overarching aims of what, 692 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: especially a public school educational experience is supposed to be about. 693 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I definitely meant that more for non public schools. 694 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: I think that if you are a school, if you 695 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: are a private school that has a uniform, I think 696 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,479 Speaker 1: that uniform That's what I'm saying. No, I totally agree 697 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: with you then, even though mine was a skirt, right exactly. Um. Also, 698 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: I mean we didn't even talk about how much of 699 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: a sex object the school girl uniform has become. I mean, 700 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: Britney spears hit me maybe one more time, right if 701 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: we were. I just think it's gross to have girls 702 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: parading around in outfits that people have sexualized. What's so 703 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: funny about that is that I think if there's anybody 704 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: from my high school listening, shout out to STHs, but 705 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: you would know that the girls, at least the girls 706 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: in my school, because we wore uniforms, we were the grossest, rankest, 707 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 1: most unwashed group of women you've ever seen in your life. 708 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: My my uniform was mustard staining for most of the year. 709 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: Um that that idea that you know, sexy Catholic schoolgirl, 710 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: I don't know where that came from. Not my school 711 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: came from a bunch of men. That's where more like unwashed, unshaven? 712 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: Is that skirt clean? What's that? Stay in school girl? 713 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: I love it? I love it well. I think the 714 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 1: last piece of advice we want to sort of share 715 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: here that I found really compelling is maybe flip the 716 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: script on the whole idea of school a dress codes 717 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 1: that overly penalized women for the way that their bodies 718 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,720 Speaker 1: can be quote unquote distracting to men. Instead, consider training 719 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: the boys and the men, the administrators, the teachers not 720 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: to harass women. Or instead of blaming women's dress for 721 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: assault and harassment, for underscoring just how problematic that framing 722 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: can be, let's teach our boys how to stay focused, 723 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: how to be respectful, how to not judge uh, and 724 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: know that you know not everybody is going to look 725 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: exactly the way you want them to look all the time. 726 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: And I think at the end of the day, the 727 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: sooner we can get on board with that and allowing 728 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: not just freedom of expression, but allowing people's bodies to 729 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 1: not be offensively distracting to you, we can all get 730 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: down to the business of learning from each other. Definitely, 731 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: I want to have one more thing in there. If 732 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: you have a person in your school who seems to 733 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: be how can I put this. I think a lot 734 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: of school dress code enforcement comes from a place that 735 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 1: is stevie and gross and weird in a sexual way. 736 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: I think if you see that, don't be abad to 737 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: call that out. I read a lot of these stories 738 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,280 Speaker 1: about male administrators and male chaperones at dances and stuff. 739 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 1: If that stuff seems weird, maybe it is. Yeah. Also 740 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: I've I've seen it in my experience from other women 741 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: coming down on This is the other thing. We never 742 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: really got to it in the episode, but before we 743 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: close out out, this also pits women against women. Remember 744 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: when I was saying about shorts, I was pointing at 745 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: my other classmate saying, well, she can wear it, and 746 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 1: you don't have a problem with her wearing these shorts. 747 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: But I, somehow this is a problem. We're wearing the 748 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: exact same thing. I heard that come up again and 749 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: again when I was watching testimony from girls who were 750 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 1: who made documentaries like student made documentaries around dress code 751 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: I know, right and technology tweens and social media hashtag 752 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: tweens and social media for the win um. But they 753 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: were describing how well she's wearing the exact same thing, 754 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: but I got in trouble for it. That makes me realize, 755 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: it's my body that's offensive. It's not the garment that's offensive. 756 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: And it does in my experience that enforcement, that power 757 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: trip that some teachers or administrators get can also reflect 758 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: an internalized misogyny of saying this is a good girl, 759 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: and this is a slut definitely, this is what a 760 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 1: good girl looks like, and this is I feel entitled 761 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: to basically slut shame women over the choices that they're 762 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: making about their own bodies. Isn't an interesting how we've 763 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: all internalized this stuff. Yeah, it's not cool. I just 764 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: think it dehumanizes the intellectual potential of a student to 765 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: make her feel the way that I felt, which was 766 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: ashamed and like I should be apologizing, And I just 767 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,399 Speaker 1: I don't want other women or men, or those who 768 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: don't fall in that binary to feel objectivied in that 769 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: same way. That's not the kind of priorities that our 770 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: schools should be promoting, in my opinion. So we want 771 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: to hear from you on this. It's fraud. I hope. 772 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: I hope we don't sound like we just flip flopped 773 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: on this idea seventeen times, but it's how I feel. 774 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: I feel like this is such a fraud issue. I'd 775 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: love to shine a spotlight on any schools that you 776 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: feel are doing this well. As a parent, have your 777 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: kids come home or have you been called from the 778 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 1: principle's office about your kids dress this impacted your own 779 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: educational journey. We'd love to hear from you any other 780 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 1: questions you've got for them. Yeah, did you wear uniform 781 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: is when you were in school? Do your kids were uniforms? 782 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: How do you feel about them? Yeah? I'm probably one 783 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: of the only people who was super pro uniform. But 784 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,240 Speaker 1: if you're not pro uniform, I want to know why. Yeah. 785 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: I we'd love to hear from me on this because 786 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: I know you were asking for this episode, and I 787 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: feel like it left me feeling more ambivalent than when 788 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: I started. But I think if anyone can save us 789 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 1: on this issue, it's between betweens, Betweens, teen Vogue, and 790 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,319 Speaker 1: the internet, right, So send us a treat at mom 791 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,760 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast shoot does a message on Instagram at stuff 792 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You, And as always, we love reading 793 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: your listener mail at mom Stuff at how stuff works 794 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: dot com.