Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening and enjoy the podcast. But right now I'm excited
Speaker 1: to introduce my guest for today, Lewis Howes. Lewis is
Speaker 1: a lifestyle entrepreneur, high performance business coach, author, and keynote speaker.
Speaker 1: A former professional football player and two sport All American,
Speaker 1: Lewis hosts the School of Greatness podcast, which has received
Speaker 1: millions of downloads since it launched in twenty thirteen. Louis
Speaker 1: was recognized by the White House and President Obama as
Speaker 1: one of the top one hundred entrepreneurs in the country
Speaker 1: under thirty. He's a contributing writer for Entrepreneur and Yahoo
Speaker 1: dot Com, and has been featured in The New York Times, Forbes,
Speaker 1: Men's Health, The Today Show, and other immedia outlets. Houses
Speaker 1: an advisory board member of Pencils of Promise and his
Speaker 1: latest book is The Mask of Masculinity, How men can
Speaker 1: embrace vulnerability, create strong relationships, and live their fullest lives. Lewis,
Speaker 1: thanks for being on the podcast today. Thanks Scott, I
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Man. I wanted you to be on here
Speaker 1: for years, and I like that you on there. I
Speaker 1: get the sense that one of the things you're most
Speaker 1: proud of in your life these days is what you're
Speaker 1: doing in the Pencils of Promise. I noticed on the internet,
Speaker 1: like things you've been saying and the things you've been
Speaker 1: doing for them to really help them. Tell me a
Speaker 1: little bit about what that organization is and what you're
Speaker 1: doing with him. For me, Pencil Promises helps build schools
Speaker 1: around the world for kids in need and for kids
Speaker 1: that don't have actual physical schools in kind of the
Speaker 1: poorest areas of these countries in Guatemala, a Laos and Ghana,
Speaker 1: and I think they've built over four hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: five hundred schools now and we've built five ourselves, but
Speaker 1: we built almost forty through my influence and through getting
Speaker 1: other people to build them. It just means a lot
Speaker 1: to me because growing up I felt like I was
Speaker 1: always stupid, and I felt like I never had anything
Speaker 1: interesting to say. I feel like I wasn't smart at all,
Speaker 1: and I was in the special needs classes. You know,
Speaker 1: I was picked on because I couldn't read and read aloud.
Speaker 1: When the teachers would ask me to read from a
Speaker 1: book and open up page thirty two chapter, you know,
Speaker 1: a paragraph, one line one, it was like I would
Speaker 1: stumble over the simplest words. And so for me, I
Speaker 1: understand the importance of education. I feel like it was
Speaker 1: hard for me to learn through the model of the
Speaker 1: school that I had growing up, but learning in general
Speaker 1: is something I'm obsessed with. That's why I created personally
Speaker 1: the School of Greatness because these are all the things
Speaker 1: that I wish I would have learned in school growing
Speaker 1: up that they didn't teach us. And so I said,
Speaker 1: I'm going to create that school, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: create opportunities for physical schools for other kids who don't
Speaker 1: even have access to it. So that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1: I love it. And we obviously bond over people thinking
Speaker 1: we're stupid when we're young. That's something that we have
Speaker 1: bonded over for a while now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've
Speaker 1: really I think it's great what you're doing in that space.
Speaker 1: So I want to talk to you about So you
Speaker 1: have this podcast, then you published the book The School
Speaker 1: of Greatness. Yep, but something still nagged at you. Is
Speaker 1: is that right? And it kind of was rus to
Speaker 1: writing this book? So what was that? Yeah? You know,
Speaker 1: four years ago at thirty, a lot of things happened
Speaker 1: for me. I was going through a bad breakup and
Speaker 1: I didn't have the emotional capacity to really express my
Speaker 1: feelings and I didn't have the emotional capacity to really
Speaker 1: leave that relationship. I was allowing things to happen that
Speaker 1: shouldn't have and I just didn't know how to cope
Speaker 1: and deal with the loss of that intimacy. I started
Speaker 1: to allow this anger to come out of me, where
Speaker 1: I was getting in different arguments and fights and very
Speaker 1: aggressive in other areas of my life, to the point
Speaker 1: where I actually got a physic fight with someone and
Speaker 1: at the end of it, I mean, his face was mangled,
Speaker 1: blood everywhere, he had to go to the hospital and stitches,
Speaker 1: and after it, I was just like, what is wrong
Speaker 1: with me? Why am I, as a thirty year old
Speaker 1: man getting into fights and allowing myself to be so
Speaker 1: triggered and emotionally charged when someone steps to me or
Speaker 1: whatever they did to actually physically want to hurt someone back.
Speaker 1: So these things first triggered me to be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: something's not working, Like I'm doing these things and I
Speaker 1: don't feel good about who I am in the world.
Speaker 1: So I said why. I just started asking why am
Speaker 1: I reacting this way? Why don't I have the ability
Speaker 1: to cope with these things? Why do I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm always someone's else to get me? Why do I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm suffering emotionally in these areas? Why do
Speaker 1: I feel like I have a lack of inner peace?
Speaker 1: Pressure and stress? Like these things For some of my
Speaker 1: life drove me to achieve accomplishments and sports and business
Speaker 1: and other things like that. But I was so unfulfilled
Speaker 1: when I would achieve these things that I was just like, Okay, why,
Speaker 1: There's got to be a better way. So this put
Speaker 1: me down a path of discovering and being aware of
Speaker 1: all the things that I was afraid of. It confronted
Speaker 1: me in the most intimidating ways where I started sharing
Speaker 1: my fears, my insecurities, my things. I was ashamed of
Speaker 1: the things I was guilty of and started just kind
Speaker 1: of revealing all them verbally, and I talked about being
Speaker 1: sexually abused for the first time in twenty five years.
Speaker 1: And the more I just kind of opened up and
Speaker 1: just said, here I am, I have nothing to hide anymore.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to project this perfect image, this jock image,
Speaker 1: whatever it was, I'm not going to project I know
Speaker 1: all the answers here I am. I don't know all
Speaker 1: the answers. Here's the shit I've been through, and they've
Speaker 1: terrified me. And I've been lying to you for my
Speaker 1: whole life about these things. When I started to open up,
Speaker 1: I felt an unbelievable sense of freedom. First I felt
Speaker 1: terror because I was worried that everyone was going to
Speaker 1: judge me and not accept me, and no one was
Speaker 1: going to love me. Once I realized that everyone loved
Speaker 1: me more, people accepted me, more, people trusted me more,
Speaker 1: they respected me more for sharing these things, for being
Speaker 1: open and being vulnerable, it was like this freedom. It
Speaker 1: was like, for the first time in my life, I
Speaker 1: could be who I've always wanted to be, which is myself,
Speaker 1: and I could go through life and I didn't have
Speaker 1: this like fear that people weren't going to accept me anymore,
Speaker 1: and I was like, if they don't accept me for
Speaker 1: who I am, then I'll find someone who does and
Speaker 1: I'll focus on those people. But I was I could
Speaker 1: rather have zero friends and be myself than have all
Speaker 1: the friends in the world, have everyone loved me, but
Speaker 1: me not love myself because I'm not being who I
Speaker 1: want to be. So that's how this journey began. It
Speaker 1: was like I felt this freedom myself. Wanted to dive
Speaker 1: deeper and understand the science behind why I grew up
Speaker 1: a certain way, why I put on different masks, why
Speaker 1: other men do this. I wanted to study it from psychiatrists, psychologists,
Speaker 1: and other individuals. And then I was like, I want
Speaker 1: to write this. You know, I read a book on
Speaker 1: this for myself, for other men like me. Then I realized,
Speaker 1: like as I was writing this, like this is the
Speaker 1: keys to the Kingdom for women. And if women could
Speaker 1: understand the husband, their boyfriend, their father, their brother, their son,
Speaker 1: what they might be going through, the mask they might
Speaker 1: be wearing, and understand it from a place of love
Speaker 1: as opposed to making them wrong, the amount of harmony
Speaker 1: and support and community and togetherness we could all form
Speaker 1: together would be mind blowing. So it's been an interesting
Speaker 1: process and I knew that in order for this to
Speaker 1: be effective, I had to fully reveal all my crap,
Speaker 1: fully reveal like my biggest fears and embrace them, you know,
Speaker 1: and become, you know, the batman, Like I'm afraid of
Speaker 1: bats and now I'm just gonna wear a batsuit because
Speaker 1: this is the thing I'm most afraid of. So I'm
Speaker 1: going to let everyone see my fear and just put
Speaker 1: it out there. And I'm going to be stronger by
Speaker 1: embracing my fear because I'm going to let people see it.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what I realized I needed to do.
Speaker 1: I was like, I need people to hear these stories.
Speaker 1: I need them to talk about them. I need to
Speaker 1: open up in ways that are very uncomfortable for me
Speaker 1: because it's going to bring a level of opening, a
Speaker 1: catalyst awareness to other people. Yeah, it's very brave, very
Speaker 1: brave you and you definitely have a lot of male
Speaker 1: fans that look up to you as a role model
Speaker 1: of masculinity. So for someone like you to do that
Speaker 1: is we really should not underestimate the power that you
Speaker 1: yield to do that. Yeah, and I'm I'm a big
Speaker 1: fan of Brene Brown and Oprah and Deepak Chopra, and
Speaker 1: they talk about vulnerability and you know, sharing and expressing
Speaker 1: yourself the challenges. Most men that I grew up with
Speaker 1: would not be open to ever watching Oprah's show or
Speaker 1: listening to brand A Brown or any feminist talking about
Speaker 1: vulnerability and what men should be doing. But I think
Speaker 1: my hope is that you know, the men that needed
Speaker 1: the most, these kind of like alpha aggressive Stowe, you know,
Speaker 1: men who grew up not thinking that way. Maybe they
Speaker 1: can see me and maybe see themselves in me, this tall, white,
Speaker 1: physical jock male who is an athlete who's also built businesses,
Speaker 1: you know, and accomplish some things that are like cool
Speaker 1: in the masculinity world, and hopefully they can see it
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, maybe I can learn something from
Speaker 1: this guy about success in my life or you know,
Speaker 1: opportunities and then realize that I was actually much deeper
Speaker 1: than just making money. It's about finding inner peace. So
Speaker 1: you know, that's cool. And I'm just thinking, like, is
Speaker 1: there male vulnerability and is there female do Males and
Speaker 1: females have different issues when it comes to the need
Speaker 1: to show more vulnerability I mean, vulnerability is universal. I
Speaker 1: think men tend to be less vulnerable in certain stigmas
Speaker 1: that they face that they can't be so I can't
Speaker 1: share about certain things that have happened to me in
Speaker 1: my past because I need to be at a man
Speaker 1: for the people around me, so I can't act like
Speaker 1: it affected me. I think women, also, especially now in
Speaker 1: our time right now, feel like a pressure of needing
Speaker 1: to look sexy and hot all the time, to be
Speaker 1: to excel at their work or and their entrepreneurial career,
Speaker 1: and to come home and cook and clean and be
Speaker 1: chill and be relaxed around their man and like and
Speaker 1: turn it on at any time and be sexual at night. Like.
Speaker 1: There's enormous amounts of pressures that women, I understand, face
Speaker 1: and feeling like they can't be vulnerable as well. So
Speaker 1: I feel like they're different for our time and for
Speaker 1: what's happening right now. But it's hard to be vulnerable
Speaker 1: in general because it's it's fearful. It's a lot of
Speaker 1: fear that comes from being vulnerable. What if someone doesn't
Speaker 1: accept me, what if someone won't love me anymore? What
Speaker 1: if they make fun of me by being who I am?
Speaker 1: That's why we put on masks as men and women.
Speaker 1: We wear these masks to fit in. Brenee talks about gosh,
Speaker 1: what's the quote she said, the opposite of belonging is
Speaker 1: fitting in or something like that, where it's like when
Speaker 1: you try to fit in, that's when you don't belong
Speaker 1: because you're not being to who you really are. So
Speaker 1: you know, we face different fears as men and women,
Speaker 1: but vulnerability is universal. Yeah, I like that answer. Did
Speaker 1: you find your with the fitting in thing or the
Speaker 1: need for belonging? Did you find yourself like saying things
Speaker 1: or doing things on social media or as your business
Speaker 1: that wasn't really at the core of your authenticity of
Speaker 1: who you are, but you knew it would get you likes. No,
Speaker 1: I'm sure. Yeah, there's nothing that stands out right now
Speaker 1: that I'm like, I was never the guy that was
Speaker 1: kind of like showing like the flashy cars or I
Speaker 1: never did that, at least that I to my memory.
Speaker 1: You know, when I take that back, when I was
Speaker 1: like in a helicopter ride in Hawaii, I was like
Speaker 1: filming from there, but it wasn't like I need to
Speaker 1: show this sense of like luxurious life. It was more
Speaker 1: just like moments of adventure. That's just not my mask
Speaker 1: as much. I live more minimal. I mean, I wear
Speaker 1: like a black V neck T shirt every day, and like,
Speaker 1: I like nice things and I like to be comfortable.
Speaker 1: But I my worth doesn't come from the amount of
Speaker 1: money I have in my bank account and letting everyone
Speaker 1: know how much money I have, Whereas that's the material
Speaker 1: mask which I talk about where some men feel like
Speaker 1: they need to show it all the time. You know,
Speaker 1: you show your car, show your watch, to show this
Speaker 1: and this, and again, I'm not saying anything's right or wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to judge anyone who do these things.
Speaker 1: I just look at it coming from a place of
Speaker 1: why do we do these things? Why do we need
Speaker 1: to feel the need to like show our cash or
Speaker 1: show this If it's for a reason to show an
Speaker 1: example of what's possible, or it's to inspire or something
Speaker 1: else okay, cool, or if it's to educate cool, If
Speaker 1: it's to feel like we are accepted in the world
Speaker 1: because we have this much money and we're projecting this,
Speaker 1: is that really making us fulfilled? And if all that
Speaker 1: money was gone, would you still be accepted? Would people
Speaker 1: still love you? Something to ask yourself. So I think
Speaker 1: it's just coming from a place of why am I
Speaker 1: doing the things I'm doing? Why am I aggressive? Why
Speaker 1: do I need to conquer every woman in the world.
Speaker 1: Why do I need to have all the answers all
Speaker 1: the time and be always right? Why do I always
Speaker 1: need to use humor instead of, you know, to deflect
Speaker 1: things or use humor, And at times that could be vulnerable,
Speaker 1: but I don't know how to cope with my emotions.
Speaker 1: Just asking why? What's underneath these things that hold us
Speaker 1: back from getting closer to our vision? That's why I
Speaker 1: ask myself. It's not right or wrong, good or bad.
Speaker 1: It's is the actions you're taking working for you to
Speaker 1: help you get closer to your vision of your life,
Speaker 1: or your relationships or your career. Is it working or not?
Speaker 1: And here's the funny thing is some of these masks,
Speaker 1: you know, the mask, the material mask. When I was
Speaker 1: broke in on my sister's couch and had no money,
Speaker 1: I put the material mask on. I said, I need
Speaker 1: to focus on making money, I need to not be broke.
Speaker 1: I'm going to fixate on this, you know, fifteen twenty
Speaker 1: hours a day, and it worked. I made a lot
Speaker 1: of money. I built my business like those things worked,
Speaker 1: but it was so consuming that I gained sixty pounds
Speaker 1: and people started calling me fat Lewis that I didn't
Speaker 1: have any other relationships, that I was doing business deals
Speaker 1: that weren't authentic to me, and that didn't feel good.
Speaker 1: And I felt like I kind of, you know, wasn't
Speaker 1: looking out for my audience on some of the things
Speaker 1: I was promoting or selling because I was just fixated
Speaker 1: on making the money. And I said, Okay, is this
Speaker 1: working or not working in terms of a bigger vision
Speaker 1: that I have for myself. So that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1: It's just like evaluating and being fully aware. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, the ultimate man is fully aware of his
Speaker 1: fears and insecurities and can own them with confidence and
Speaker 1: can stand in them and talk about them. And that's
Speaker 1: what it's about. Sometimes a lot of us aren't able
Speaker 1: to share those things because we're so terrified of what
Speaker 1: other people might think. Yeah, and you make that point clear.
Speaker 1: And when you go through each of these different masks,
Speaker 1: each of those masks are a way of protecting a
Speaker 1: particular image that we want to protect. Yeah, exact image protection.
Speaker 1: Each one of them right. I was going to wait
Speaker 1: till like the very end of this interview I asked
Speaker 1: this question, but I want to ask you right now,
Speaker 1: and I hope that this doesn't signify the end of
Speaker 1: the interview. I'd love to know, like who is Lewis
Speaker 1: Howse at his best? Because I can ask who is
Speaker 1: Lewis Howse but yet to understand like all of us
Speaker 1: are are all lots of things. But who are you
Speaker 1: when you're at your best? Loving, passionate, joyful, graceful, non judgmental, courageous,
Speaker 1: service minded, coming from a place of win win, and
Speaker 1: always looking to lift others up. I love that, and
Speaker 1: that's how I think of you, by the way, So
Speaker 1: that's good. But let me tell you my observation of
Speaker 1: what I heard there when you said that I'm such
Speaker 1: a psychologist. When I heard that, I heard you mentioned
Speaker 1: a lot of very positive stereotypically male and female traits.
Speaker 1: So what you did is you combined kind of the
Speaker 1: best of humanity, both male and female. So that suggests
Speaker 1: to me that you know, a big part of your
Speaker 1: message is not you are trying to change our perceptions
Speaker 1: of our stereotypical masculine image. Is that right? I think so, man,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out the best way to feel
Speaker 1: at peace and feel fulfillment and meaning inside and to
Speaker 1: create more fulfillment in the world and bring humanity together.
Speaker 1: And I realized that, you know, I have I feel
Speaker 1: like I've had an interesting life because I have two
Speaker 1: older sisters and a mom that were there and always
Speaker 1: talking about how to treat women like they would My
Speaker 1: sisters would go out on dates and they would have
Speaker 1: bad time, and they'd come back to me and be like,
Speaker 1: never do this when you grow up. Lewis like, never
Speaker 1: do what this person did. So I was kind of
Speaker 1: always trained of what women were feeling and what women
Speaker 1: were wanted, and I felt like I had this very
Speaker 1: sensitive side to me. I was, you know, saying in
Speaker 1: a choir. I was in the school musical, I played guitar,
Speaker 1: I selsa dance. You know. I enjoy and appreciate jazz
Speaker 1: and music and arts and poetry. I appreciate these things
Speaker 1: because my sisters grew up appreciating these things. But then
Speaker 1: on this other side, I have like a more rough,
Speaker 1: masculine side where my brother was in prison for four
Speaker 1: and a half years and I visited him in a
Speaker 1: prison cell, literally visiting room with fifty other convicts in
Speaker 1: the room and their families, and heard some of the deepest,
Speaker 1: darkest stories where I was bullied, picked on, picked the
Speaker 1: last in the special needs classes. My whole life had
Speaker 1: tutored my whole life because people said it was dumb
Speaker 1: and used. That sense of the story that I told
Speaker 1: myself is that no one loved me, no one was
Speaker 1: there for me, and no one saw me. So I
Speaker 1: took all this anger and pain and said, I'm going
Speaker 1: to be the biggest, fastest, strongest human being I can be,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to be so good at sports and
Speaker 1: so strong that no one will ever be able to
Speaker 1: hurt me or make me wrong or pick me last
Speaker 1: ever again. I'm going to be the best so that
Speaker 1: they have to acknowledge me, be so good they can't
Speaker 1: ignore me, right, Yeah. And so I had these kind
Speaker 1: of like conflicting I had like the extreme masculine machismo
Speaker 1: energy on the sports field, and then I had like
Speaker 1: this sensitive, vulnerable tenderness like around women and my girlfriends,
Speaker 1: you know, in the time, I would like sing lullabies
Speaker 1: to them on the guitar. I was like very contradictory
Speaker 1: and I didn't know how to balance it because I
Speaker 1: just didn't know. And I came from a place of
Speaker 1: needing to be right and needing to win in sports, business, relationships,
Speaker 1: in life, and needing to be right all the time
Speaker 1: is extremely exhausting. And needing to win all the time
Speaker 1: is exhausting as well, because if I'm right and I'm
Speaker 1: the only winner, that means I'm isolating myself on an
Speaker 1: island where everyone else is a loser and they're wrong,
Speaker 1: and I'm alone when I'm right and I win. But
Speaker 1: when I come from a place of you know, how
Speaker 1: can we all be winners? How can we create a
Speaker 1: win win in every situation? How can we come to
Speaker 1: a mutual agreements on things as opposed to you're right,
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, whatever it may be. I realized, like, wow,
Speaker 1: there's so much more harmony in this. There's so much
Speaker 1: more grace and love and community and fulfillment as opposed
Speaker 1: to just being right and alone all the time. There's
Speaker 1: so much more to life than that. Yeah, so a
Speaker 1: lot of things are saying really cut at the core
Speaker 1: of a common humanity that I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people listening will recognize, And I sure do. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to pretend here that that I didn't
Speaker 1: wear all sorts of masks for the same exact reason
Speaker 1: you did, same exact reason. I mean, a lot of
Speaker 1: people who have kind of been stripped of their power
Speaker 1: as children tend to overcompensate. And I'm trying to go
Speaker 1: down your list here of your mask. Yeah, you're the
Speaker 1: You're the no, you're the know at all masks, right,
Speaker 1: you're the one who gets all the degree one. I
Speaker 1: picked that one. I wanted to go down the list
Speaker 1: because I sure I saw a lot, not just here.
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the thing. And as you read the book,
Speaker 1: I talk about myself as an example for each mask.
Speaker 1: So it's like I've lived all these I lived them.
Speaker 1: Still it's a matter of being aware of them and
Speaker 1: being able to say, you know what, Okay, let me
Speaker 1: take it off and just be authentic and be myself. Well,
Speaker 1: I appreciated you did that so much that I want
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable here now as well with you. Sure, sure, okay,
Speaker 1: So if I'm going down this, I see a lot
Speaker 1: of my childhood to know it all. Of course, your
Speaker 1: sports was my note at all, but joker, you know
Speaker 1: I got detention a lot because I was the class clown.
Speaker 1: Like I really enjoyed making all the kids laugh and
Speaker 1: that was that was fun. Actually, it was probably a
Speaker 1: way for you to be seen and be acknowledged, just
Speaker 1: as someone who adds value and who wants to be
Speaker 1: around the group, right, yeah, And I still enjoy that,
Speaker 1: by the way, So of course who doesn't like that?
Speaker 1: And I have a nuanced answer to the aggression one
Speaker 1: because I think mine was like yours on the battlefield
Speaker 1: or the battlefeld, be the sports field. But I'll tell
Speaker 1: you what mine was. I became a hacker and really yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a way to read no, no, no, Like I
Speaker 1: I created like something called a bolt and board system,
Speaker 1: Like I had a BBS. This is back like pre internet.
Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone knows what that is. I
Speaker 1: put up for free like games and things that were
Speaker 1: like I mean it's too yeah exactly, there we go,
Speaker 1: there we go, like you know, like people dabster right
Speaker 1: and all that. But this is before all that. And
Speaker 1: like i'd like Wolfenstein three D for free to people
Speaker 1: and stuff. Anyway, some people might catch that's a rebel. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a true but I felt that was my
Speaker 1: way of gaining control, you know, as we all try
Speaker 1: to work out our masks and under those masks, that's
Speaker 1: you know, been trying to I mean, I think that
Speaker 1: a lot of things you're saying doftel really nicely with
Speaker 1: like the humanistic psychology movement and Carl Rogers and authenticity,
Speaker 1: and I'm really trying to work on that as well.
Speaker 1: So we're all on our path to that. And I
Speaker 1: found your book really touching quite honestly, really it was
Speaker 1: the most raw thing I've read from you. And the
Speaker 1: humility of it is just incredible. I mean it I
Speaker 1: was ringing out. I was like, I think you're too
Speaker 1: much humility in this, Like I'm afraid you went in
Speaker 1: the opposite direction too, like you went from school of
Speaker 1: greatness to like to school said nothing. Yeah, And I'm like, wait, wait, Loise,
Speaker 1: can humility itself be a mask as well? By the way,
Speaker 1: I was wondering, Yeah, I think if someone's just constantly,
Speaker 1: if you don't acknowledge your gifts, I think you're just
Speaker 1: then you're not stepping into your greatness. There's a dance, right,
Speaker 1: It's like, how can you acknowledge your gifts as opposed
Speaker 1: to discount them? Constantly. I think for this book, I
Speaker 1: was just making reference to like man, I made a
Speaker 1: lot of mistakes of the man and as a human being.
Speaker 1: And I heard a lot of people in this instance
Speaker 1: when I wore this mask, and when I wore this mask,
Speaker 1: like I just suffered inside and made other people wrong,
Speaker 1: and I wore this mask, I just you know, everything
Speaker 1: fell apart of my business, and so I was just
Speaker 1: looking to you know, you look at my bio on
Speaker 1: my side, I talk about all my accomplishments. So it's
Speaker 1: not like I'm discounting the things I've done, but I
Speaker 1: think it's recognizing, like, Okay, as much as these accomplishments
Speaker 1: have been great, or as much as I'm great at
Speaker 1: one skill or this or that, does it matter if
Speaker 1: I'm suffering constantly, or if I'm hurting other people? Does
Speaker 1: it matter if I don't feel fulfillment. There's a story
Speaker 1: of talk about in the book with Robin Williams, who
Speaker 1: is arguably one of the funniest people ever to live,
Speaker 1: who made more people laugh and smile and cry tears
Speaker 1: of joy than any other man, maybe one of the
Speaker 1: top ten probably comedians of all time, right, and yet
Speaker 1: he was unable he took his life. He took his life.
Speaker 1: He was unable to find inner fulfillment. He wasn't able
Speaker 1: to find that peace. And I'm not trying to make
Speaker 1: an assumption here because I don't know exactly what happened,
Speaker 1: but I could only guess that whenever he took his
Speaker 1: guard down and actually try to just be himself, which
Speaker 1: is probably just like a loving, vulnerable man, and people
Speaker 1: were like, where's the funny Robin. We want the jokes,
Speaker 1: we want this, and he's like, okay, let me bring
Speaker 1: it up for you. La da da, And it's like
Speaker 1: he probably just felt like, you know, I always got
Speaker 1: to do this around people, or they're not going to
Speaker 1: like me or they're not going to love me. Again.
Speaker 1: I'm just making a guest here because I know how
Speaker 1: I am. When I put the joker mask on. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe they don't like me if I'm not just myself.
Speaker 1: And so I can't remember where I was going with this.
Speaker 1: But the Robin's story for me is a great example
Speaker 1: of like he had all the talent in the world,
Speaker 1: he had all the gifts in the world to make
Speaker 1: an impact, and maybe he wasn't acknowledging them. Or maybe
Speaker 1: he also wasn't just allowed to be his true self
Speaker 1: when he wanted to be because everyone expected him to
Speaker 1: wear this mask because it did make an impact, It
Speaker 1: did bring so much joy to people. But I think
Speaker 1: you have to honor yourself the most, and if it's
Speaker 1: killing you inside that you're making this impact, then you
Speaker 1: got to find a way to shift inside so you
Speaker 1: can do both find impact inside and fulfillment and still
Speaker 1: bring your gifts to the world. Don't discount your gifts.
Speaker 1: Bring him out, and then learn the strategies to and
Speaker 1: emotionally and mentally to be yourself and to cope with
Speaker 1: certain things and to go through life with the challenges
Speaker 1: we have. So yeah, like not just find fulfillment, but
Speaker 1: be your full self, right, Yeah, exactly exactly. You know,
Speaker 1: that's awesome. You said something very interesting that many of
Speaker 1: us have worn our masks for so long that we're
Speaker 1: not even sure what's actually underneath them anymore. I mean,
Speaker 1: how do you like For a lot of people, you know,
Speaker 1: it can actually be terrifying, you know, and then they
Speaker 1: have to see clinicals very get a lot of therapy
Speaker 1: because it can be you can't just rip a mask
Speaker 1: off someone you know who's had it. We could just
Speaker 1: be traumatic experience. Traumatic, it can be it's going to
Speaker 1: be a transformational experience, and it's going to be a breakdown,
Speaker 1: which could hopefully create a breakthrough if you're in a
Speaker 1: safe enough environment in space and all these things happen.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people the only way we
Speaker 1: can truly take our mask off is with some type
Speaker 1: of interruption in our life. That may be going through
Speaker 1: a divorce, that may be going through a traumatic breakup,
Speaker 1: that maybe someone dying in your life, having a near
Speaker 1: death experience, seeing something so close to your life, a
Speaker 1: friend of yours experience something and have an experience on you,
Speaker 1: going through a therapeutic experience. You know. Some people can
Speaker 1: find these breakthroughs at retreats or workshops or emotional intelligence
Speaker 1: experience where you can finally have that moment of clarity
Speaker 1: and awareness. But most people are never aligning themselves to
Speaker 1: feel awareness around what's really been happening in their whole
Speaker 1: life for five years or whatever the process may be,
Speaker 1: until there's an interruption something someone actually shaking them physically
Speaker 1: and saying wake up, like wake up, you've been doing
Speaker 1: this why? And unfortunately, it usually takes a big interruption
Speaker 1: in our lives for that to happen, as opposed to
Speaker 1: just someone waking up one day and saying, oh, and
Speaker 1: I wonder why this is happening to me. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like usually there's got to be that interruption. Now.
Speaker 1: That's for sure a major theme in your book as well.
Speaker 1: I know this is this idea of perfection. Is you
Speaker 1: get it close with this line, no human being could
Speaker 1: ever successfully live up to the standard we've created if
Speaker 1: you ever even come close. You know, it sounds like,
Speaker 1: you know, there's that some Christed neft self compassion stuff
Speaker 1: in there as well. You know, like you're saying a
Speaker 1: lot of men like have more self, like a common humanity,
Speaker 1: and not be so perfectionistic that you're like, gosh, forbid
Speaker 1: you you're imperfect. You know, like, oh my gosh, you can't.
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to be imperfect. Yeah, I mean this
Speaker 1: goes from men and women. You know. I think women
Speaker 1: feel this sense of needing to be perfect again in
Speaker 1: the bedroom, in the workforce, at home and like with
Speaker 1: the kids and always have you know, look good. It's
Speaker 1: a universal feeling, you know. I think men have a
Speaker 1: big pressure on their shoulders to be a certain way,
Speaker 1: and to be strong and not show emotions, and to
Speaker 1: be like this perfect image for the women in their
Speaker 1: lives and family. And it's just a it's a weight.
Speaker 1: It's a pressure that we don't need to live with
Speaker 1: because it causes emotional stress. And as I'm sure you
Speaker 1: have studied that the emotional mel tightness that we hold
Speaker 1: on to for years creates physical ailments, creates cancers, creates
Speaker 1: complications in our physical health, and our physical health then
Speaker 1: brings us more stress in the world and holds us
Speaker 1: back from again living our life with our vision and
Speaker 1: all these things. It comes back to does this work
Speaker 1: for us and work for humanity or does it not
Speaker 1: work for us and helping us bring our vision and
Speaker 1: our dreams to life. And if it's not working for
Speaker 1: us at the best level that it can, then how
Speaker 1: can we approve it so it will work, so we
Speaker 1: can get closer to our vision and living with harmony,
Speaker 1: living with fulfillment. That's what it's about. I love that,
Speaker 1: and I love that you're trying to help women and
Speaker 1: men both. There's one mask I think does have some
Speaker 1: unique male issues, and that's the sexual mask. I think
Speaker 1: that women have different pressures. Their sexual mask might be
Speaker 1: different than the male sexual mask. Let's zoom in for
Speaker 1: a second and on the sexual mask you talk in
Speaker 1: there you highlight Neil Strauss and you know when his
Speaker 1: book The Game came out to that five like every male,
Speaker 1: you know, we're like, whoa, you can gain amazing, you
Speaker 1: can gain the system exactly amazing. There's such a prevallege
Speaker 1: of males who go through this fees and it's almost
Speaker 1: like like enough already, Like because every generation for the
Speaker 1: end of time is male, is just going to keep
Speaker 1: going through over and over and over again. Like is
Speaker 1: there some wisdom? Is certain wisdom our thirty five year
Speaker 1: old selves can can tell? I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: this is a challenge because you know, I don't understand
Speaker 1: all the science yet behind biology and our DNA and
Speaker 1: our makeup and our testosterol levels are higher. So I
Speaker 1: think it's just like we see something and human nature
Speaker 1: just turns on a switch and we're just you know,
Speaker 1: driven to want to conquer it or to have that
Speaker 1: you know, woman. And so I feel like there's a
Speaker 1: lot more research and science I have to do to
Speaker 1: fully understand it. But as evolved, emotional, intelligent, human that
Speaker 1: can make conscious decisions and choices. And again, no right
Speaker 1: or wrong here, because you know, Hugh Hefner just died
Speaker 1: yesterday right from recording this, and you know he was
Speaker 1: there were a lot of people who thought he was
Speaker 1: like immoral and wrong and this and that for living
Speaker 1: the life he did. But there was I think there
Speaker 1: was a cartoon graphic that came out this morning. The
Speaker 1: guy lived his life the way he wanted to that
Speaker 1: was authentic to him. Now. I'm sure he was marrying
Speaker 1: some masking different things, but he seemed pretty happy. He
Speaker 1: seemed pretty fulfilled. He built an iconic brand. He was
Speaker 1: always in his pajamas, Like, What's I mean for me?
Speaker 1: It seems like he was living his life that was
Speaker 1: great to him. And there was this cartoon graphic that
Speaker 1: had Hugh at the gates of Heaven like looking up
Speaker 1: at heaven and God was there talking to him, and
Speaker 1: he said, I just left Heaven. Where am I going?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? It's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: we can judge him, we can say certain things were wrong,
Speaker 1: but his truth was he wanted to live the way
Speaker 1: he wanted to and he wasn't hurting anyone the way
Speaker 1: he was doing it. He seemed very gentle, He seemed
Speaker 1: very giving and kind, and you know, he was a
Speaker 1: support person. It seemed like, you know, I didn't know
Speaker 1: the man, but it just seemed like from the things
Speaker 1: I learned. And so there's a challenge because I think
Speaker 1: as men were more driven for sexual desires because of
Speaker 1: our testosterone and our biology to want appro creates. Again,
Speaker 1: I don't understand all the science, but it's again thinking
Speaker 1: about what serves my vision. Does having sex with a
Speaker 1: new girl every single night and then emotionally connecting with
Speaker 1: them and persuading them to get in bed with me
Speaker 1: and then saying Okay, see you later and never talking
Speaker 1: to them again. If you're not communicating openly and being
Speaker 1: clear and being you know, you know, just not trying
Speaker 1: to persuade someone or manipulate someone to do something, there's
Speaker 1: going to be consequences. You're gonna feel the inside, You're
Speaker 1: going to hurt people. So look at your life as like, Okay,
Speaker 1: if you want to have sex with lots of people,
Speaker 1: just make sure that you're doing it from a place
Speaker 1: of love and you're communicating so that people know clearly
Speaker 1: the intentions, what's happening. All these things, and it's just like,
Speaker 1: is it effective to have twenty women in your life
Speaker 1: that you're having sex with every other week? Can you
Speaker 1: manage a life and your vision while constantly managing all
Speaker 1: these energies and conflicts. I mean, it just seems like
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, in a perfect world, it seems
Speaker 1: like this, maybe this has heaven. In another world, it
Speaker 1: seems like maybe it's a nightmare, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So it's what it comes down to. Yeah, can you
Speaker 1: give me some examples of some of your role models
Speaker 1: from a masculinity perspective, I mean Tony Robbins, Ray Lewis,
Speaker 1: Scooter Brawn or you know kind of role models of
Speaker 1: what they've done in their lives. And you know a
Speaker 1: lot of people have any known Doctor Drew. I'm just
Speaker 1: looking at the people on my wall that have interviewed
Speaker 1: who are just you know, even Randy Catore, you know,
Speaker 1: he's in All these men have different you know, accomplishments,
Speaker 1: and they wear different masks as well what they have
Speaker 1: in the past and they do now. And but all
Speaker 1: these guys, Yeah, let's focus on Tony Robbins, who Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you do you do mention in the book that's right,
Speaker 1: And you can trast him with Ty Lopez, who is
Speaker 1: an internet celebrity who seems to need to bring in
Speaker 1: his material successes or rentals into his videos exactly. So
Speaker 1: can you contrast the two to each other. They both
Speaker 1: a lot of wealth, But how are they different? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think listen, Tony's also not shy, Like he'll have
Speaker 1: a photo of him on his private jet, and there's
Speaker 1: photos of him at the Golden State Warriors games because
Speaker 1: he's a part owner of the team and things like that.
Speaker 1: But it's not like every photo is him standing in
Speaker 1: front of his jet talking about like what it takes
Speaker 1: to be successful is get rich and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: It's coming from a place of like service and contribution
Speaker 1: and making an impact. And you know, I think people
Speaker 1: can judge or think certain things about him, and he's
Speaker 1: made a lot of money, and maybe there's certain mass
Speaker 1: that he is or isn't living with still, but I
Speaker 1: believe that he's His general message overall is how do
Speaker 1: we give, how do we come from a contribution, how
Speaker 1: do we help heal? How do we help build strong relationships?
Speaker 1: So his message is teaching abundance, teaching harmony, teaching, contribution,
Speaker 1: teaching these things as opposed to get his rich dra
Speaker 1: can so you can have a ferrari and a car
Speaker 1: in a house and this, Like me, I think it's
Speaker 1: just a different dance of how you share these your
Speaker 1: message with the world. And I don't see it feel
Speaker 1: like he does it to show how much money has
Speaker 1: because people are going to accept him now or think
Speaker 1: he's manly now, or think he's worthy now. I think
Speaker 1: he's just showing his lifestyle. I'm just flying to Bali
Speaker 1: and like I wanted to connect with you guys from
Speaker 1: moment and talk about the meaning of life. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like more philosophical and heart's than money centered, even
Speaker 1: though he does have books on you know, money matter
Speaker 1: of the game. He has financial books, but again it's
Speaker 1: setting your life up for abundance, not just to get
Speaker 1: the nice things. Can you name any male role models
Speaker 1: of yours that you think kind of illustrate this more
Speaker 1: enlightened aspect of masculinity, that of people that aren't high
Speaker 1: in social status. I noticed that like all the names
Speaker 1: you mentioned like that you really admire, they all have
Speaker 1: that tinge of high social status. And is there anyone
Speaker 1: that just like you really like. Yeah, Like there's a
Speaker 1: guy really like cool Rob Bell. Okay guy, even though
Speaker 1: he's well known as an author and in kind of
Speaker 1: like the Christian community. He was on tour with Oprah.
Speaker 1: He's done a lot of like he's got a big audience,
Speaker 1: but he just lives a humble life. He's like a
Speaker 1: few blocks from me in just like a you know,
Speaker 1: medium moderate sized house, nothing fancy. And he's all about
Speaker 1: finding meaning and he's all about like finding your spiritual
Speaker 1: compass and living a rich life of community and connection
Speaker 1: and you know, expression and art. And he just always
Speaker 1: seems to like find joy as I think he's a
Speaker 1: mid forties maybe late forties. He just seems like he's
Speaker 1: like always like a little kid. He's just like she
Speaker 1: finds joy in like the littlest things. And I just
Speaker 1: love his And he's a father of three kids that
Speaker 1: are just awesome, and he's just like he cooks there,
Speaker 1: he cooks for them, he hangs out with them, he
Speaker 1: plays music with them. He also lives his life and
Speaker 1: writes his books and speaks around the world. And I
Speaker 1: just find that really cool. He's like my spiritual compass,
Speaker 1: you know. He's just like man could I be more
Speaker 1: giving and more like joyful? And I just I love
Speaker 1: being around him for that reason. Yeah. You know when
Speaker 1: you just mentioned Rob Bell and you talked about him,
Speaker 1: your face lit up and you kind of went to
Speaker 1: a different place than when you mentioned just all those
Speaker 1: other people that you mentioned. Yeah, And I think that's
Speaker 1: kind of revealing in a way. It's you know, who
Speaker 1: you really want to be as a person. It's very
Speaker 1: clear to me who you want to be and who
Speaker 1: you know. Sometimes maybe we name drop people I do
Speaker 1: you do other people do? We don't really like aspire,
Speaker 1: we don't, you know, it's not just people on my wall.
Speaker 1: Yeah I saw that. Yeah, okay, but something about Rob
Speaker 1: Bell and those characteristics bils a man. Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, I want to be more like
Speaker 1: Rob Bell for sure, He's amazing. Yeah. So I want
Speaker 1: to end here on a quote that from your book
Speaker 1: that I think really encapsulates this, this very forward view
Speaker 1: of masculinity. For me, I look at a man as
Speaker 1: a symbol of inspiration, someone who lives to be of
Speaker 1: service along his journey, someone who follows his purpose, who
Speaker 1: experiences fears but has the courage to face them and
Speaker 1: move forward. Anyway. Someone who's loving to all people creatures
Speaker 1: in the world, including himself. Someone who can take care
Speaker 1: of his basic needs and teach others how to live
Speaker 1: in abundance. Someone who doesn't judge people but looks for
Speaker 1: ways to lift others up. Someone who leaves this place
Speaker 1: better than the way he found it. That to me
Speaker 1: is a man. Well. Thanks h Lewis for inspiring so
Speaker 1: many men and women and making the world a better
Speaker 1: place yourself. I appreciate it, brother, Thanks Scott, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for listening to The Psychology Podcast with Doctor
Speaker 1: Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just
Speaker 1: as thought provoking as I did. If something you heard
Speaker 1: today stimulated you in some way, I encourage you to
Speaker 1: join in the discussion at the Psychology Podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: That's the Psychology Podcast dot com.