WEBVTT - Adam McKay is Still Angry About 2008 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:22.756 Pushkin most of two thousand and six. In early two 0:00:22.796 --> 0:00:26.236 thousand and seven, doctor Michael Barry had experienced as a 0:00:26.276 --> 0:00:31.076 private nightmare. In an email, he wrote, the partner's closest 0:00:31.076 --> 0:00:35.676 to me tend to ultimately hate me. This business kills 0:00:35.676 --> 0:00:39.476 a part of life that is pretty essential. The thing is, 0:00:40.276 --> 0:00:43.996 I haven't identified what it kills, but it is something 0:00:44.116 --> 0:00:46.836 vital that is dead inside of me. I can feel it. 0:00:49.636 --> 0:00:52.836 I'm Lydia Dean caught a producer here and against the rules. 0:00:53.116 --> 0:00:55.276 And what we just heard is an excerpt from The 0:00:55.276 --> 0:00:58.596 Big Short, a book that Michael Lewis wrote in twenty ten. 0:00:59.196 --> 0:01:01.716 He's now releasing it for the first time as an 0:01:01.716 --> 0:01:04.076 audiobook narrated by him. 0:01:04.156 --> 0:01:06.676 Yep, and I'm here too, so LJ, I'm gonna tell 0:01:06.676 --> 0:01:07.716 you what I want you to do. 0:01:08.596 --> 0:01:12.916 You're a innocent outsider with no particular interest in the 0:01:12.956 --> 0:01:15.356 global financial crisis. It is like one of these huge 0:01:15.396 --> 0:01:19.996 events in American history, and it's really useful to me 0:01:21.036 --> 0:01:25.636 to hear what you're curious about, and also for me 0:01:25.756 --> 0:01:28.996 to explain to you why the people who were interviewing 0:01:29.036 --> 0:01:31.636 are the people we're interviewing, why they matter now? 0:01:32.236 --> 0:01:35.076 So I haven't thought about the two thousand and eight 0:01:35.156 --> 0:01:38.116 financial crisis since it happened, which is when I was 0:01:38.116 --> 0:01:40.476 in high school, and I'm gonna be honest, I actually 0:01:40.476 --> 0:01:42.236 didn't even really think about it. 0:01:42.156 --> 0:01:44.596 That much when it happened. Why would you, I was 0:01:44.636 --> 0:01:45.596 thinking about high school. 0:01:46.956 --> 0:01:50.036 Why did you want to revisit it? Why look back 0:01:50.076 --> 0:01:50.596 at it now? 0:01:51.716 --> 0:01:54.116 It has never lost its relevance. It has been this 0:01:54.196 --> 0:01:57.156 slow motion train wreck that comes right from that. The 0:01:57.276 --> 0:02:00.796 essence of its importance was the feeling of unfairness it 0:02:00.916 --> 0:02:04.676 generated by how it was dealt with. You had these 0:02:04.716 --> 0:02:08.276 elites on Wall Street doing things they shouldn't have been doing, 0:02:08.636 --> 0:02:11.476 getting paid a fortune to do them, and when it 0:02:11.516 --> 0:02:16.596 all goes wrong and everybody suffers, there's no apparent cost. 0:02:16.596 --> 0:02:18.476 They get to go about doing their business, they get 0:02:18.516 --> 0:02:21.036 bailed out by the government. Everybody has to live by 0:02:21.036 --> 0:02:24.116 the harsh rules of capitalism except the capitalists themselves. The 0:02:24.156 --> 0:02:27.236 feeling that the world is rigged, the anger generated by 0:02:27.236 --> 0:02:31.236 the event, has been the dominant mood in our political life. 0:02:31.556 --> 0:02:34.076 So I've thought for some time that they'll come a 0:02:34.116 --> 0:02:36.556 moment where it's worth looking back on it and saying, like, 0:02:37.556 --> 0:02:38.756 why was this important? 0:02:39.236 --> 0:02:41.476 What were the consequences of this event, right. 0:02:41.396 --> 0:02:42.756 And here we are, now's the moment. 0:02:43.356 --> 0:02:46.156 And you did it by talking to a bunch of people, right, 0:02:46.196 --> 0:02:48.676 who you thought could answer questions that you had that 0:02:48.756 --> 0:02:51.076 kind of came to you as you were rereading the book. 0:02:51.756 --> 0:02:56.436 And correct, the first person was Adam McKay, who is 0:02:56.516 --> 0:02:59.836 the director of the Big Short movie. How would you 0:02:59.916 --> 0:03:02.636 characterize your relationship to that. 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:06.396 Movie the same as my relationship to the movies of 0:03:06.476 --> 0:03:10.076 all my books, is that I had no effect whatsoever 0:03:10.156 --> 0:03:12.516 on how they made the movie. But they pretended to 0:03:12.556 --> 0:03:15.716 listen to me. They pretended to care what I thought 0:03:15.796 --> 0:03:18.396 while they were making the movie. So I developed personal 0:03:18.436 --> 0:03:20.836 relationships with some of the actors and with the director. 0:03:21.436 --> 0:03:22.996 To make a movie from a book, you need to 0:03:22.996 --> 0:03:25.876 break the thing and remake it, and the authors I 0:03:25.876 --> 0:03:27.756 think uniquely unsuited. 0:03:27.236 --> 0:03:29.316 To do that. And the movie was different from the book. 0:03:29.676 --> 0:03:32.596 So I wanted to start with McKay because you know, 0:03:32.796 --> 0:03:33.716 I'm awed by him. 0:03:33.836 --> 0:03:34.796 He's a huge talent. 0:03:35.516 --> 0:03:38.916 He grappled with the same material, and I wanted to 0:03:38.916 --> 0:03:40.836 just kind of talk about how he grappled with it. 0:03:40.956 --> 0:03:43.356 You know, we had never had that conversation when the 0:03:43.396 --> 0:03:44.276 movie was made. 0:03:44.516 --> 0:03:46.556 Well, Adam McKay when he took on the movie right 0:03:46.636 --> 0:03:51.436 like before that, he had only done straight up comedies Stepbrothers, Talidy, 0:03:51.476 --> 0:03:57.076 the Knights. Were you anxious about interesting your book to 0:03:57.156 --> 0:03:59.756 this guy who up until then had only done comedies. 0:04:00.476 --> 0:04:03.636 Anxious is not doesn't describe what I felt. What I 0:04:03.716 --> 0:04:07.996 felt was incredulity. I thought there's no way they're going 0:04:08.036 --> 0:04:11.196 to turn this book into him, and so I was 0:04:11.236 --> 0:04:14.156 amazed that it happened. You know, in the first place, 0:04:14.436 --> 0:04:15.756 I thought, no way they're gonna be able to pull 0:04:15.836 --> 0:04:17.316 us off, And the fact that he pulled us off 0:04:17.396 --> 0:04:19.756 is incredible the way he did. 0:04:20.196 --> 0:04:22.236 Now, I remember. 0:04:21.876 --> 0:04:25.236 Thinking, the only way it works is funny. Like you 0:04:25.236 --> 0:04:26.996 ask a comedian to be funny, they can be funny, 0:04:27.036 --> 0:04:29.636 that's their job. When they're supposed to be funny, they're funny. 0:04:29.676 --> 0:04:30.636 I find that so hard for me. 0:04:31.076 --> 0:04:32.676 I feel like they can only be funny by accident. 0:04:33.116 --> 0:04:33.956 That's exactly right. 0:04:34.036 --> 0:04:34.676 I'm the same way. 0:04:34.716 --> 0:04:37.436 I can be funny by accident, very well put. And 0:04:37.596 --> 0:04:39.076 you know, I hate to say it. When I'm writing, 0:04:39.116 --> 0:04:41.316 I laugh at my own stuff. Laughter is like really 0:04:41.396 --> 0:04:45.036 important to the stuff. If it's not fun I lose interest. 0:04:45.716 --> 0:04:48.756 I don't think, oh, I'm writing a comedy. I think, oh, 0:04:48.796 --> 0:04:52.396 there's lots of funny bits in here. It's more like 0:04:52.436 --> 0:04:55.396 a tragedy the story with lots of funny bits in 0:04:55.396 --> 0:04:55.956 the middle of it. 0:04:56.196 --> 0:04:57.716 But when Kate took it on, I thought, if. 0:04:57.556 --> 0:05:00.636 Someone's gonna do it, it has to be wildly entertaining, 0:05:01.676 --> 0:05:04.956 otherwise nobody will come to the subject matter. So I thought, 0:05:05.036 --> 0:05:07.756 if anybody can do it, sure the guy who did Talladega, 0:05:07.836 --> 0:05:09.596 Nites and Anchorman is the guy. 0:05:10.436 --> 0:05:13.516 This is the Big Short Companion pod after the Break 0:05:13.876 --> 0:05:17.756 Michael Lewis's conversation with Adam McKay about how he transformed 0:05:17.756 --> 0:05:19.956 a wonky book about the two thousand and eight financial 0:05:19.956 --> 0:05:36.676 crisis into an Oscar winning film. 0:05:36.716 --> 0:05:38.476 So I'm gonna ask you a lot of stupid questions, 0:05:38.836 --> 0:05:41.636 questions and there questions some of them might know kind 0:05:41.636 --> 0:05:44.996 of the answer to, but mostly don't. And before we 0:05:45.076 --> 0:05:47.996 get to the Big Short, I want you to tell 0:05:48.036 --> 0:05:51.756 me about the how you made your first movie, how 0:05:51.956 --> 0:05:55.756 you became a movie person, a movie director, what it 0:05:55.916 --> 0:05:56.996 was and how it happened. 0:05:57.196 --> 0:06:05.356 So I was head writer at Saturday Night Live. And 0:06:06.516 --> 0:06:10.156 you know the big advantage I had was I had 0:06:10.196 --> 0:06:17.156 come out of that Chicago long form scenic improv scene 0:06:17.316 --> 0:06:22.476 and basically all we did every single night of the 0:06:22.516 --> 0:06:29.316 week was improvised sketches. So I was very comfortable in 0:06:29.356 --> 0:06:33.676 that space, and so they made me head writer. I 0:06:33.836 --> 0:06:39.716 was head writer for three years, but I've always loved movies. 0:06:40.236 --> 0:06:44.836 So after three years, I was like, you know what, 0:06:45.116 --> 0:06:47.996 it's time to move on. I wanted to do my 0:06:48.156 --> 0:06:52.676 own stuff, and I was frustrated. I mean, ETC. Live 0:06:52.876 --> 0:06:55.876 is kind of like the New York Times. I mean 0:06:55.916 --> 0:07:03.796 it's a very established institution that has a certain way 0:07:03.916 --> 0:07:08.916 that it operates. And honestly, if you asked Louren Michaels, 0:07:08.956 --> 0:07:11.836 I think he would tell you he was sick of 0:07:11.916 --> 0:07:17.516 me arguing with him. So I was about to leave 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:22.556 in you know, friendly terms, and I had a manager, 0:07:22.676 --> 0:07:26.916 Jimmy Miller, who said, if you're going to leave, you 0:07:27.036 --> 0:07:33.196 might as well make a totally unreasonable demand. So I 0:07:33.276 --> 0:07:36.196 went back and I said, all right, I want to 0:07:36.236 --> 0:07:39.476 make short films. I want you to give me a budget, 0:07:40.356 --> 0:07:45.156 I want you to let me name my credit. I 0:07:45.196 --> 0:07:49.956 don't want to ever have to go to production meetings 0:07:50.076 --> 0:07:53.236 or any of that stuff. And I still want to 0:07:53.236 --> 0:07:59.076 write sketches as I see fit. So I was like, oh, 0:07:59.116 --> 0:08:03.996 and I want to raise and I was expecting the 0:08:04.076 --> 0:08:07.996 response to come back, you know, get lost, and he 0:08:08.156 --> 0:08:14.036 said yes. And it was really all credit to Lauren. 0:08:15.076 --> 0:08:21.356 The experience I had shooting those short films was really 0:08:21.516 --> 0:08:26.356 when I knew like, oh, I'm a writer director. They 0:08:26.356 --> 0:08:32.436 were all on sixteen millimeter like real film, and they were. 0:08:32.636 --> 0:08:37.476 It was just an incredible experience. So Pharrell and I 0:08:37.956 --> 0:08:41.876 will Farrell and I had written a script which we 0:08:41.996 --> 0:08:46.396 couldn't get made over at Paramount, but we had. It 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:51.236 was about a car salesman from Ana who was the 0:08:51.316 --> 0:08:56.796 greatest car salesman but fell into a slump. So we'd 0:08:56.836 --> 0:09:00.956 had so much fun doing that that we decided to 0:09:00.996 --> 0:09:07.636 write another script, and we wrote the Anchorman script, and 0:09:07.956 --> 0:09:13.116 the idea was ways that I would direct it, and 0:09:13.676 --> 0:09:17.876 once again to Lauren's credit, he loved it. He was 0:09:18.076 --> 0:09:22.276 behind it. He was like, McKay can direct. Ferrell is 0:09:22.316 --> 0:09:28.796 a star, and every single studio and financier in town 0:09:29.596 --> 0:09:35.876 passed on it. And I'll never forget. We were back 0:09:36.036 --> 0:09:40.516 in my little apartment in New York City and I 0:09:40.596 --> 0:09:45.316 was with Farrell and it, you know, nothing was going 0:09:45.356 --> 0:09:48.876 the way we thought it would go. And the only 0:09:49.236 --> 0:09:54.436 project that anyone wanted to make was this goofy script 0:09:54.596 --> 0:09:59.516 about him as a full adult being an elf. And 0:10:00.036 --> 0:10:02.916 we were just sitting in my apartment and we're like, 0:10:03.916 --> 0:10:09.076 we better make this good. I was hired to do that, 0:10:09.156 --> 0:10:14.556 to rewrite, and we hammered on it, and all the 0:10:14.596 --> 0:10:18.996 studios that it passed on. Anchorman came back and like 0:10:19.156 --> 0:10:21.796 there was like a little bidding war, and. 0:10:22.036 --> 0:10:23.116 That was it. 0:10:23.436 --> 0:10:25.556 I got to make Anchorman. 0:10:26.716 --> 0:10:29.396 This is the beginning of your long form career as 0:10:29.396 --> 0:10:32.356 a film director. Yeah, is Ackerman, I remember you telling 0:10:32.356 --> 0:10:36.316 me that Anchorman you always had a kind of political objective, 0:10:36.876 --> 0:10:40.876 a cultural and there was cultural commentary there that maybe 0:10:40.916 --> 0:10:43.996 the audience didn't fully take on because they were too entertained. 0:10:44.156 --> 0:10:44.356 Yeah. 0:10:44.396 --> 0:10:49.476 I mean that's the background that I came out of Chicago, 0:10:50.516 --> 0:10:56.556 Second City. Dell Close. Dell Close, who's the famous long 0:10:56.636 --> 0:11:01.596 form improv teacher, used to always say, if you aim 0:11:01.796 --> 0:11:05.996 for art and you miss, you end up with comedy. 0:11:06.796 --> 0:11:09.556 If you aim for comedy and you miss, you end 0:11:09.676 --> 0:11:14.796 up with crap. So everything we did, even Anchorman, as 0:11:14.916 --> 0:11:18.676 silly as it is, if you look at the way 0:11:18.716 --> 0:11:22.916 we begin it with the shot choices. I mean, we 0:11:22.916 --> 0:11:28.556 were really trying to play it high stakes. Same thing 0:11:28.716 --> 0:11:34.556 with Talladega Knights Step Brothers. Always as ridiculous as they were, 0:11:35.316 --> 0:11:37.796 we were trying to play it at the highest stakes. 0:11:38.196 --> 0:11:40.276 And then Will and I would always have a little 0:11:40.476 --> 0:11:46.636 secret that we were like, Anchorman is actually about the 0:11:46.756 --> 0:11:53.716 collapse of mainstream news media. Talladega Knights is about this 0:11:53.996 --> 0:12:00.516 backwards pride of the w Bush supporters. Stepbrothers was about 0:12:00.956 --> 0:12:08.156 how consumerism turns grown men into children. And so every 0:12:08.276 --> 0:12:12.716 movie we had this little secret and we never tell anyone. 0:12:13.516 --> 0:12:17.676 So the big shorts, Yeah, I mean it was really 0:12:17.756 --> 0:12:21.916 like someone recommended the book. Oh they have good taste. 0:12:22.116 --> 0:12:25.236 I picked it up, Oh, let me read this, could 0:12:25.316 --> 0:12:30.716 not put it down, and I was like, oh my god, 0:12:30.876 --> 0:12:36.796 this story is incredible. I mean, people forget But at 0:12:36.836 --> 0:12:41.076 the time that book came out, that was like the 0:12:41.116 --> 0:12:45.796 book of that era, because we were in the full 0:12:46.356 --> 0:12:53.636 throes of what people now call the neoliberal economic model. 0:12:53.956 --> 0:13:00.956 That's where essentially corruption became quote smart. And it was 0:13:00.996 --> 0:13:06.796 this weird period which has now come to full blossom 0:13:07.196 --> 0:13:14.036 where not only our institutions but our culture itself, the 0:13:14.076 --> 0:13:21.796 way we operate as a society became something that was 0:13:21.836 --> 0:13:25.676 about get what you can get. You know, Michael, you're 0:13:25.956 --> 0:13:30.596 familiar with the last man out theory, which was the 0:13:30.836 --> 0:13:35.196 scariest thing I discovered when I was doing the Big Short, 0:13:35.236 --> 0:13:41.196 and that theory is get everything you can get your bonuses, 0:13:41.796 --> 0:13:46.316 make as much money as you can, screw everything, and 0:13:46.556 --> 0:13:51.716 just don't be the last man left. Make sure you're 0:13:51.876 --> 0:13:56.476 out before the collapse. And I really think if you 0:13:56.716 --> 0:14:03.836 look at the neoliberal economic age, that one theory explains 0:14:04.316 --> 0:14:08.356 so much. So yeah, I loved your book. You also 0:14:08.836 --> 0:14:12.756 have a really good sense of humor, so you made 0:14:12.756 --> 0:14:16.636 me laugh several times. And then I loved it in 0:14:16.756 --> 0:14:20.956 the book how you would call stuff out and stop 0:14:21.676 --> 0:14:25.396 and say, if you're confused right now. So was I 0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:29.116 when I heard this, And that was really the bell 0:14:29.356 --> 0:14:30.716 that went off. 0:14:30.836 --> 0:14:34.556 That was putting Margot Robbie in a bathtub to explain 0:14:34.916 --> 0:14:39.356 credit to fault swaps. Yeah, yeah, So the banks started 0:14:39.356 --> 0:14:42.196 filling these bonds with riskier and riskier. 0:14:41.876 --> 0:14:43.236 Mortgages, thank you, Benja. 0:14:44.156 --> 0:14:47.356 That way they can keep that profit machine churning. Right. 0:14:48.436 --> 0:14:52.276 By the way, these risky mortgages are called subprime. 0:14:52.796 --> 0:14:55.436 So whenever you hear subprime think shit. 0:14:56.956 --> 0:15:00.436 Our friend Michael Bury found out that these mortgage bonds 0:15:00.476 --> 0:15:02.396 that were supposedly sixty. 0:15:01.956 --> 0:15:05.636 Five percent triple A were actually just mostly full of shit. 0:15:07.276 --> 0:15:08.996 So now he's going to short. 0:15:08.836 --> 0:15:16.116 The between stabetic games. Got it. You never adapted a 0:15:16.116 --> 0:15:18.116 book before, had you? 0:15:18.156 --> 0:15:18.236 No? 0:15:19.796 --> 0:15:24.876 My wife is a theater director, and she had adapted 0:15:24.916 --> 0:15:28.436 a lot of stuff. It's kind of her specially. But 0:15:28.716 --> 0:15:33.076 most importantly, I knew that there are no hard rules, 0:15:33.556 --> 0:15:37.356 and I also knew from talking to people that they 0:15:37.356 --> 0:15:43.036 were very confused by the financial language. And I said, 0:15:43.156 --> 0:15:47.956 we have to time this exactly right, right at the 0:15:48.076 --> 0:15:51.676 moment where your average audience is like, what are they 0:15:51.916 --> 0:15:57.556 talking about? We have to stop. And I knew we 0:15:57.756 --> 0:16:01.916 had picked the right moment when my sound guy came 0:16:01.956 --> 0:16:06.356 to me and said, hey, Adam, I just got to 0:16:06.436 --> 0:16:10.796 let you know, this is really confused, and I was like, yes, 0:16:11.356 --> 0:16:12.796 We're in good shape. 0:16:17.516 --> 0:16:18.276 When we come back. 0:16:18.356 --> 0:16:20.636 I asked Adam McKay how he got so many big 0:16:20.676 --> 0:16:22.516 stars to sign up for the Big Short. 0:16:29.196 --> 0:16:32.316 How did the Volkswagen Beetle go from being Hitler's dream 0:16:32.396 --> 0:16:35.716 car to a hippie icon. How did a disgruntled center 0:16:35.756 --> 0:16:39.476 fielder change the business of sports I'm Jacob Goldstein and 0:16:39.596 --> 0:16:42.396 on Business History, my co host Robert Smith and I 0:16:42.436 --> 0:16:45.436 dig into the people and companies who created the modern world. 0:16:45.836 --> 0:16:49.436 Business History is full of innovations and failures and insights 0:16:49.436 --> 0:16:52.676 into how business works today. At the end of today's 0:16:52.716 --> 0:16:54.676 episode of Against the Rules, we're going to play a 0:16:54.716 --> 0:16:59.076 clip from our episode about Jim Simon's decades ago. Simon's 0:16:59.156 --> 0:17:03.636 basically invented modern algorithmic trading, and after a few early hiccups, 0:17:03.916 --> 0:17:07.516 including buying up all the potatoes in Maine, Simon's built 0:17:07.556 --> 0:17:11.876 a machine that generated in incredible returns for decades. The 0:17:11.916 --> 0:17:14.836 show is called Business History and the previous coming up. 0:17:14.876 --> 0:17:26.076 At the end of today's episode of Against the Rules. 0:17:23.036 --> 0:17:26.756 I'm back with writer and director Adam McKay. 0:17:27.596 --> 0:17:27.876 For you. 0:17:27.996 --> 0:17:30.516 What were the challenges like taking the book and turning 0:17:30.556 --> 0:17:32.716 into a script or did it just kind of come naturally? 0:17:33.716 --> 0:17:37.476 Well, you know, there was already a script written Charles 0:17:37.876 --> 0:17:42.916 Charles Randolph had written a script, and I was like, oh, 0:17:42.956 --> 0:17:46.596 there's some really good stuff in here, but I know 0:17:46.756 --> 0:17:51.836 exactly what to do, and that rewrite. I think it 0:17:51.876 --> 0:17:56.556 was turned around pretty quickly. And then Paramount had the 0:17:56.876 --> 0:18:01.836 script and they have no interest because they're like the 0:18:01.916 --> 0:18:06.756 guy who did step Brothers with Wall Street, and we 0:18:06.836 --> 0:18:10.996 realized we had to get big star. So just on 0:18:11.036 --> 0:18:16.756 our own, we went out to Christian Bale, Ryan Gosling, 0:18:17.036 --> 0:18:21.396 Brad Pitt and it was one of those freaky moments 0:18:21.436 --> 0:18:26.596 where they all said yes. And Adam Goodman was running 0:18:26.756 --> 0:18:30.716 Paramount and to his credit, he was like, okay, I 0:18:30.716 --> 0:18:34.236 mean they didn't give us a huge amount of money, 0:18:34.716 --> 0:18:37.236 but they gave us, you know, the green light, and 0:18:37.276 --> 0:18:38.316 that was it. 0:18:39.596 --> 0:18:42.876 Do you know why your actors said yes? Do you 0:18:42.916 --> 0:18:45.316 know why Christian Bale and Ryan Gosling and Brad Pitt 0:18:45.316 --> 0:18:46.436 all said I want to do I'm. 0:18:46.276 --> 0:18:51.036 Gonna say this and it sounds very immodest. 0:18:50.956 --> 0:18:53.196 But that was a good script. 0:18:53.596 --> 0:18:59.156 Like that was I mean, these actors get, you know, 0:18:59.716 --> 0:19:04.916 one hundred scripts a year, maybe they read like thirty 0:19:05.076 --> 0:19:09.476 or forty. That was a good script. And then in 0:19:09.556 --> 0:19:14.636 every case I met with them before they said yes, 0:19:14.756 --> 0:19:18.316 so I was able to say, like, I know you 0:19:18.516 --> 0:19:22.916 know me from X Y Z, but here's how I 0:19:23.036 --> 0:19:28.076 see this. This will be different. I right away knew 0:19:28.116 --> 0:19:33.596 that I wanted Barry Ackroyd to be the DP because 0:19:33.636 --> 0:19:37.276 we had a lot of scenes in offices, and we 0:19:37.436 --> 0:19:42.556 needed to make the mundane of a phone call have urgency. 0:19:43.156 --> 0:19:49.076 And no one adds life to scenes like Barry Ackroyd. 0:19:49.196 --> 0:19:52.676 Give me an example of how he creates drama from 0:19:52.716 --> 0:19:53.276 a phone call. 0:19:53.796 --> 0:19:54.996 That's this is different. 0:19:55.516 --> 0:20:01.316 So what he does is his background is as a 0:20:01.556 --> 0:20:07.996 documentary filmmaker. So we started with long lens in the 0:20:08.116 --> 0:20:13.636 corner of the room, don't look at me, and crazy 0:20:14.076 --> 0:20:18.356 stuff going on. And through the years of doing that, 0:20:19.116 --> 0:20:22.836 he learned how to look for the right light, how 0:20:22.876 --> 0:20:27.836 to find the artistic shot. And by the time I 0:20:27.996 --> 0:20:32.796 met him and he was at full peak ability and 0:20:32.956 --> 0:20:37.476 the only thing I told him was occasionally, I'm going 0:20:37.556 --> 0:20:44.956 to want to do traditional Dolly, big Hollywood shots. I 0:20:44.996 --> 0:20:48.956 wanted to be a blend. And he was totally cool 0:20:49.036 --> 0:20:53.076 with it. And it was some of the most exciting 0:20:53.476 --> 0:20:59.436 filmmaking I have ever seen because it's a constant process 0:20:59.596 --> 0:21:04.196 of discovery. He kind of treats it like I don't 0:21:04.236 --> 0:21:08.556 know what's going to happen. This is a documentary, So 0:21:09.556 --> 0:21:15.596 you can see them constantly zooming in finding something, Oh, 0:21:15.676 --> 0:21:21.996 I like this hangout. Meanwhile, I'm behind the monitor going, oh, Verry, 0:21:22.636 --> 0:21:23.956 that is incredible. 0:21:24.196 --> 0:21:25.756 But you know what, you know what that sounds like. 0:21:25.796 --> 0:21:30.476 It sounds like a visual a rhyme with how you 0:21:30.516 --> 0:21:33.876 approach the words. You are so open, you're holding your 0:21:33.876 --> 0:21:37.716 script so loosely, and you're letting things happen sometimes that 0:21:37.996 --> 0:21:41.516 aren't in the script, always so that you don't know 0:21:41.796 --> 0:21:45.596 what's going to happen. That if everybody was sort of 0:21:45.676 --> 0:21:47.036 like roped to the words on. 0:21:46.996 --> 0:21:52.556 The page, I actually think, see what you think of this, Michael. 0:21:52.796 --> 0:22:00.356 I think this hyper capitalist end result culture we're now 0:22:00.916 --> 0:22:07.156 in eradicates discovery. So if you're gonna sell a book 0:22:07.716 --> 0:22:11.476 or you're going to write an article, you have to 0:22:11.596 --> 0:22:16.636 tell them the conclusion. And I'm old enough to remember 0:22:17.276 --> 0:22:22.996 the early eighties the late seventies, people would go into 0:22:23.076 --> 0:22:28.116 movies and have no idea where it was gonna end up. 0:22:28.396 --> 0:22:33.116 There would be investigative pieces where the writer would start 0:22:33.156 --> 0:22:38.236 with A and end up with like W. And the 0:22:38.316 --> 0:22:45.356 more and more financialized America has become the less unless. 0:22:45.156 --> 0:22:46.356 You see that. 0:22:47.156 --> 0:22:51.316 I think our lower budget helped us a lot with 0:22:51.436 --> 0:22:56.396 the big short. You know, the executives could have missed 0:22:56.556 --> 0:23:01.116 on it, and once we got those big stars, they 0:23:01.116 --> 0:23:05.596 had cover for the boardroom. Like if the boardroom asked them, 0:23:05.676 --> 0:23:09.436 why did you give thirty five million dollars to the 0:23:09.436 --> 0:23:12.716 guy who did Step Brothers. They could just say, we 0:23:12.756 --> 0:23:17.036 have Brad Pitt, Christian Bale, Ryan Gosling, Steve Carell, and 0:23:17.316 --> 0:23:18.036 on and on. 0:23:18.756 --> 0:23:21.276 I am at my best, and the best things happen 0:23:21.716 --> 0:23:24.876 when I have a very loose notion and I don't 0:23:24.876 --> 0:23:28.476 know what's going to happen. I love that that feeling 0:23:28.556 --> 0:23:30.436 of like being on a ride you're not quite sure 0:23:30.476 --> 0:23:33.996 where it's going. So the actors gave you cover. How 0:23:33.996 --> 0:23:37.196 did you decide who was going to play who? Let's 0:23:37.196 --> 0:23:38.156 take one. How did you. 0:23:38.116 --> 0:23:40.316 Pick Christian Bale to play Michael Berry? 0:23:42.036 --> 0:23:42.756 He's just. 0:23:44.636 --> 0:23:51.116 One of the ten greatest film actors ever. And I 0:23:51.116 --> 0:23:55.316 would just say, if you're gonna like create that list 0:23:55.716 --> 0:24:00.716 of people that are chameleons, people that are really artists. 0:24:01.116 --> 0:24:07.716 I started doing all this stuff in nineteen ninety, which 0:24:07.756 --> 0:24:11.956 is crazy, and so I've met a lot of actors. 0:24:12.036 --> 0:24:15.836 We had a lot of hosts at Saturday Night Live. 0:24:16.516 --> 0:24:19.276 I was doing those short films. I got to work 0:24:19.356 --> 0:24:25.476 with feature actors, and I just started noticing that there 0:24:25.556 --> 0:24:32.476 is a giant gulf between personality actors who kind of 0:24:32.556 --> 0:24:37.836 operate off their charisma with some real skills, and then 0:24:37.916 --> 0:24:42.076 these like I mean, for lack of a better term, 0:24:42.356 --> 0:24:49.436 but like real artists and Bail just wow. Seeing his 0:24:50.796 --> 0:24:53.596 process was incredible. 0:24:54.116 --> 0:24:54.916 I was watching it. 0:24:54.996 --> 0:24:57.916 I was thinking, oh my god, that's Michael Berry on 0:24:57.996 --> 0:24:58.476 the screen. 0:25:00.836 --> 0:25:09.276 I've always been more comfortable alone. 0:25:12.156 --> 0:25:19.316 I believe it was because of my glass eye. I 0:25:19.356 --> 0:25:27.676 lost the eye. A child of alash separates me from people. 0:25:31.996 --> 0:25:35.196 I could not have told Christian Bale how to do it. 0:25:35.636 --> 0:25:38.556 That meant Christian Bale figured stuff out that I had 0:25:39.316 --> 0:25:42.716 not articulated. So this bothered me because I thought, I'm 0:25:42.756 --> 0:25:45.716 an observer, I'm an observant chap. I should have observed 0:25:45.756 --> 0:25:48.076 whatever it was that he would have needed to play 0:25:48.196 --> 0:25:52.836 Michael Berry. So we're on the junket and I'm you know, 0:25:52.996 --> 0:25:55.996 on stage, you know, four or five times with Christian Bale, 0:25:55.996 --> 0:25:58.676 and you sometimes talking about the movie in the book 0:25:58.676 --> 0:26:01.276 and the story, and backstage I have a lot of 0:26:01.316 --> 0:26:04.716 time to chit chat with him, and I kept badgering him, like, 0:26:05.516 --> 0:26:07.316 how the hell did you do that? Because all I 0:26:07.396 --> 0:26:10.596 knew was like Michael Berry had told me, Michael Berry said, 0:26:10.716 --> 0:26:12.356 I called him, I said, what's going on? 0:26:12.516 --> 0:26:13.236 With the movie he goes. 0:26:13.676 --> 0:26:16.516 He said, Christian Bale visited me. He's the weirdest guy 0:26:16.556 --> 0:26:18.516 I've ever met. And I said, if Michael Berry is 0:26:18.516 --> 0:26:20.396 calling you weird, and I said, well, what was weird 0:26:20.436 --> 0:26:22.676 about it? He said, he said, he just want to 0:26:22.676 --> 0:26:25.316 come for a day. He came in the morning, sat 0:26:25.356 --> 0:26:28.716 across from me until the evening, did not get up 0:26:28.796 --> 0:26:31.436 to go to the bathroom, and just watched me the 0:26:31.476 --> 0:26:34.276 whole day and asked me some questions. And then at 0:26:34.316 --> 0:26:36.156 the end of it, he said, could I just could 0:26:36.156 --> 0:26:38.316 I have that T shirt in those shorts because I'm 0:26:38.356 --> 0:26:38.956 going to use those. 0:26:38.996 --> 0:26:41.916 I'm gonna weare those when I play you and Wow. 0:26:42.596 --> 0:26:42.996 But I saw. 0:26:43.036 --> 0:26:44.636 I went to Christi Balle, I said, like, what the 0:26:44.676 --> 0:26:46.956 hell happened in those twelve hours? Like what did you 0:26:47.636 --> 0:26:50.276 figure out? Because there was something about his body, languages. 0:26:50.316 --> 0:26:52.676 I couldn't figure out why he had got him because 0:26:52.836 --> 0:26:56.156 Michael Berry, in his presence, you feel this discomfort. And 0:26:56.276 --> 0:26:58.996 Christian Bale had replicated that, and he says to me, 0:27:00.036 --> 0:27:02.876