1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:22,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin most of two thousand and six. In early two 2 00:00:22,796 --> 00:00:26,236 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, doctor Michael Barry had experienced as a 3 00:00:26,276 --> 00:00:31,076 Speaker 1: private nightmare. In an email, he wrote, the partner's closest 4 00:00:31,076 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 1: to me tend to ultimately hate me. This business kills 5 00:00:35,676 --> 00:00:39,476 Speaker 1: a part of life that is pretty essential. The thing is, 6 00:00:40,276 --> 00:00:43,996 Speaker 1: I haven't identified what it kills, but it is something 7 00:00:44,116 --> 00:00:46,836 Speaker 1: vital that is dead inside of me. I can feel it. 8 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:52,836 Speaker 2: I'm Lydia Dean caught a producer here and against the rules. 9 00:00:53,116 --> 00:00:55,276 Speaker 2: And what we just heard is an excerpt from The 10 00:00:55,276 --> 00:00:58,596 Speaker 2: Big Short, a book that Michael Lewis wrote in twenty ten. 11 00:00:59,196 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 2: He's now releasing it for the first time as an 12 00:01:01,716 --> 00:01:04,076 Speaker 2: audiobook narrated by him. 13 00:01:04,156 --> 00:01:06,676 Speaker 3: Yep, and I'm here too, so LJ, I'm gonna tell 14 00:01:06,676 --> 00:01:07,716 Speaker 3: you what I want you to do. 15 00:01:08,596 --> 00:01:12,916 Speaker 1: You're a innocent outsider with no particular interest in the 16 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:15,356 Speaker 1: global financial crisis. It is like one of these huge 17 00:01:15,396 --> 00:01:19,996 Speaker 1: events in American history, and it's really useful to me 18 00:01:21,036 --> 00:01:25,636 Speaker 1: to hear what you're curious about, and also for me 19 00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:28,996 Speaker 1: to explain to you why the people who were interviewing 20 00:01:29,036 --> 00:01:31,636 Speaker 1: are the people we're interviewing, why they matter now? 21 00:01:32,236 --> 00:01:35,076 Speaker 2: So I haven't thought about the two thousand and eight 22 00:01:35,156 --> 00:01:38,116 Speaker 2: financial crisis since it happened, which is when I was 23 00:01:38,116 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 2: in high school, and I'm gonna be honest, I actually 24 00:01:40,476 --> 00:01:42,236 Speaker 2: didn't even really think about it. 25 00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:44,596 Speaker 4: That much when it happened. Why would you, I was 26 00:01:44,636 --> 00:01:45,596 Speaker 4: thinking about high school. 27 00:01:46,956 --> 00:01:50,036 Speaker 2: Why did you want to revisit it? Why look back 28 00:01:50,076 --> 00:01:50,596 Speaker 2: at it now? 29 00:01:51,716 --> 00:01:54,116 Speaker 1: It has never lost its relevance. It has been this 30 00:01:54,196 --> 00:01:57,156 Speaker 1: slow motion train wreck that comes right from that. The 31 00:01:57,276 --> 00:02:00,796 Speaker 1: essence of its importance was the feeling of unfairness it 32 00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:04,676 Speaker 1: generated by how it was dealt with. You had these 33 00:02:04,716 --> 00:02:08,276 Speaker 1: elites on Wall Street doing things they shouldn't have been doing, 34 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:11,476 Speaker 1: getting paid a fortune to do them, and when it 35 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:16,596 Speaker 1: all goes wrong and everybody suffers, there's no apparent cost. 36 00:02:16,596 --> 00:02:18,476 Speaker 1: They get to go about doing their business, they get 37 00:02:18,516 --> 00:02:21,036 Speaker 1: bailed out by the government. Everybody has to live by 38 00:02:21,036 --> 00:02:24,116 Speaker 1: the harsh rules of capitalism except the capitalists themselves. The 39 00:02:24,156 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 1: feeling that the world is rigged, the anger generated by 40 00:02:27,236 --> 00:02:31,236 Speaker 1: the event, has been the dominant mood in our political life. 41 00:02:31,556 --> 00:02:34,076 Speaker 1: So I've thought for some time that they'll come a 42 00:02:34,116 --> 00:02:36,556 Speaker 1: moment where it's worth looking back on it and saying, like, 43 00:02:37,556 --> 00:02:38,756 Speaker 1: why was this important? 44 00:02:39,236 --> 00:02:41,476 Speaker 3: What were the consequences of this event, right. 45 00:02:41,396 --> 00:02:42,756 Speaker 4: And here we are, now's the moment. 46 00:02:43,356 --> 00:02:46,156 Speaker 2: And you did it by talking to a bunch of people, right, 47 00:02:46,196 --> 00:02:48,676 Speaker 2: who you thought could answer questions that you had that 48 00:02:48,756 --> 00:02:51,076 Speaker 2: kind of came to you as you were rereading the book. 49 00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:56,436 Speaker 2: And correct, the first person was Adam McKay, who is 50 00:02:56,516 --> 00:02:59,836 Speaker 2: the director of the Big Short movie. How would you 51 00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:02,636 Speaker 2: characterize your relationship to that. 52 00:03:02,676 --> 00:03:06,396 Speaker 1: Movie the same as my relationship to the movies of 53 00:03:06,476 --> 00:03:10,076 Speaker 1: all my books, is that I had no effect whatsoever 54 00:03:10,156 --> 00:03:12,516 Speaker 1: on how they made the movie. But they pretended to 55 00:03:12,556 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 1: listen to me. They pretended to care what I thought 56 00:03:15,796 --> 00:03:18,396 Speaker 1: while they were making the movie. So I developed personal 57 00:03:18,436 --> 00:03:20,836 Speaker 1: relationships with some of the actors and with the director. 58 00:03:21,436 --> 00:03:22,996 Speaker 1: To make a movie from a book, you need to 59 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:25,876 Speaker 1: break the thing and remake it, and the authors I 60 00:03:25,876 --> 00:03:27,756 Speaker 1: think uniquely unsuited. 61 00:03:27,236 --> 00:03:29,316 Speaker 3: To do that. And the movie was different from the book. 62 00:03:29,676 --> 00:03:32,596 Speaker 1: So I wanted to start with McKay because you know, 63 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:33,716 Speaker 1: I'm awed by him. 64 00:03:33,836 --> 00:03:34,796 Speaker 3: He's a huge talent. 65 00:03:35,516 --> 00:03:38,916 Speaker 1: He grappled with the same material, and I wanted to 66 00:03:38,916 --> 00:03:40,836 Speaker 1: just kind of talk about how he grappled with it. 67 00:03:40,956 --> 00:03:43,356 Speaker 1: You know, we had never had that conversation when the 68 00:03:43,396 --> 00:03:44,276 Speaker 1: movie was made. 69 00:03:44,516 --> 00:03:46,556 Speaker 2: Well, Adam McKay when he took on the movie right 70 00:03:46,636 --> 00:03:51,436 Speaker 2: like before that, he had only done straight up comedies Stepbrothers, Talidy, 71 00:03:51,476 --> 00:03:57,076 Speaker 2: the Knights. Were you anxious about interesting your book to 72 00:03:57,156 --> 00:03:59,756 Speaker 2: this guy who up until then had only done comedies. 73 00:04:00,476 --> 00:04:03,636 Speaker 1: Anxious is not doesn't describe what I felt. What I 74 00:04:03,716 --> 00:04:07,996 Speaker 1: felt was incredulity. I thought there's no way they're going 75 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:11,196 Speaker 1: to turn this book into him, and so I was 76 00:04:11,236 --> 00:04:14,156 Speaker 1: amazed that it happened. You know, in the first place, 77 00:04:14,436 --> 00:04:15,756 Speaker 1: I thought, no way they're gonna be able to pull 78 00:04:15,836 --> 00:04:17,316 Speaker 1: us off, And the fact that he pulled us off 79 00:04:17,396 --> 00:04:19,756 Speaker 1: is incredible the way he did. 80 00:04:20,196 --> 00:04:22,236 Speaker 5: Now, I remember. 81 00:04:21,876 --> 00:04:25,236 Speaker 1: Thinking, the only way it works is funny. Like you 82 00:04:25,236 --> 00:04:26,996 Speaker 1: ask a comedian to be funny, they can be funny, 83 00:04:27,036 --> 00:04:29,636 Speaker 1: that's their job. When they're supposed to be funny, they're funny. 84 00:04:29,676 --> 00:04:30,636 Speaker 5: I find that so hard for me. 85 00:04:31,076 --> 00:04:32,676 Speaker 2: I feel like they can only be funny by accident. 86 00:04:33,116 --> 00:04:33,956 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. 87 00:04:34,036 --> 00:04:34,676 Speaker 5: I'm the same way. 88 00:04:34,716 --> 00:04:37,436 Speaker 1: I can be funny by accident, very well put. And 89 00:04:37,596 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 1: you know, I hate to say it. When I'm writing, 90 00:04:39,116 --> 00:04:41,316 Speaker 1: I laugh at my own stuff. Laughter is like really 91 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:45,036 Speaker 1: important to the stuff. If it's not fun I lose interest. 92 00:04:45,716 --> 00:04:48,756 Speaker 1: I don't think, oh, I'm writing a comedy. I think, oh, 93 00:04:48,796 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 1: there's lots of funny bits in here. It's more like 94 00:04:52,436 --> 00:04:55,396 Speaker 1: a tragedy the story with lots of funny bits in 95 00:04:55,396 --> 00:04:55,956 Speaker 1: the middle of it. 96 00:04:56,196 --> 00:04:57,716 Speaker 3: But when Kate took it on, I thought, if. 97 00:04:57,556 --> 00:05:00,636 Speaker 1: Someone's gonna do it, it has to be wildly entertaining, 98 00:05:01,676 --> 00:05:04,956 Speaker 1: otherwise nobody will come to the subject matter. So I thought, 99 00:05:05,036 --> 00:05:07,756 Speaker 1: if anybody can do it, sure the guy who did Talladega, 100 00:05:07,836 --> 00:05:09,596 Speaker 1: Nites and Anchorman is the guy. 101 00:05:10,436 --> 00:05:13,516 Speaker 2: This is the Big Short Companion pod after the Break 102 00:05:13,876 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 2: Michael Lewis's conversation with Adam McKay about how he transformed 103 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:19,956 Speaker 2: a wonky book about the two thousand and eight financial 104 00:05:19,956 --> 00:05:36,676 Speaker 2: crisis into an Oscar winning film. 105 00:05:36,716 --> 00:05:38,476 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna ask you a lot of stupid questions, 106 00:05:38,836 --> 00:05:41,636 Speaker 1: questions and there questions some of them might know kind 107 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:44,996 Speaker 1: of the answer to, but mostly don't. And before we 108 00:05:45,076 --> 00:05:47,996 Speaker 1: get to the Big Short, I want you to tell 109 00:05:48,036 --> 00:05:51,756 Speaker 1: me about the how you made your first movie, how 110 00:05:51,956 --> 00:05:55,756 Speaker 1: you became a movie person, a movie director, what it 111 00:05:55,916 --> 00:05:56,996 Speaker 1: was and how it happened. 112 00:05:57,196 --> 00:06:05,356 Speaker 6: So I was head writer at Saturday Night Live. And 113 00:06:06,516 --> 00:06:10,156 Speaker 6: you know the big advantage I had was I had 114 00:06:10,196 --> 00:06:17,156 Speaker 6: come out of that Chicago long form scenic improv scene 115 00:06:17,316 --> 00:06:22,476 Speaker 6: and basically all we did every single night of the 116 00:06:22,516 --> 00:06:29,316 Speaker 6: week was improvised sketches. So I was very comfortable in 117 00:06:29,356 --> 00:06:33,676 Speaker 6: that space, and so they made me head writer. I 118 00:06:33,836 --> 00:06:39,716 Speaker 6: was head writer for three years, but I've always loved movies. 119 00:06:40,236 --> 00:06:44,836 Speaker 6: So after three years, I was like, you know what, 120 00:06:45,116 --> 00:06:47,996 Speaker 6: it's time to move on. I wanted to do my 121 00:06:48,156 --> 00:06:52,676 Speaker 6: own stuff, and I was frustrated. I mean, ETC. Live 122 00:06:52,876 --> 00:06:55,876 Speaker 6: is kind of like the New York Times. I mean 123 00:06:55,916 --> 00:07:03,796 Speaker 6: it's a very established institution that has a certain way 124 00:07:03,916 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 6: that it operates. And honestly, if you asked Louren Michaels, 125 00:07:08,956 --> 00:07:11,836 Speaker 6: I think he would tell you he was sick of 126 00:07:11,916 --> 00:07:17,516 Speaker 6: me arguing with him. So I was about to leave 127 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:22,556 Speaker 6: in you know, friendly terms, and I had a manager, 128 00:07:22,676 --> 00:07:26,916 Speaker 6: Jimmy Miller, who said, if you're going to leave, you 129 00:07:27,036 --> 00:07:33,196 Speaker 6: might as well make a totally unreasonable demand. So I 130 00:07:33,276 --> 00:07:36,196 Speaker 6: went back and I said, all right, I want to 131 00:07:36,236 --> 00:07:39,476 Speaker 6: make short films. I want you to give me a budget, 132 00:07:40,356 --> 00:07:45,156 Speaker 6: I want you to let me name my credit. I 133 00:07:45,196 --> 00:07:49,956 Speaker 6: don't want to ever have to go to production meetings 134 00:07:50,076 --> 00:07:53,236 Speaker 6: or any of that stuff. And I still want to 135 00:07:53,236 --> 00:07:59,076 Speaker 6: write sketches as I see fit. So I was like, oh, 136 00:07:59,116 --> 00:08:03,996 Speaker 6: and I want to raise and I was expecting the 137 00:08:04,076 --> 00:08:07,996 Speaker 6: response to come back, you know, get lost, and he 138 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:14,036 Speaker 6: said yes. And it was really all credit to Lauren. 139 00:08:15,076 --> 00:08:21,356 Speaker 6: The experience I had shooting those short films was really 140 00:08:21,516 --> 00:08:26,356 Speaker 6: when I knew like, oh, I'm a writer director. They 141 00:08:26,356 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 6: were all on sixteen millimeter like real film, and they were. 142 00:08:32,636 --> 00:08:37,476 Speaker 6: It was just an incredible experience. So Pharrell and I 143 00:08:37,956 --> 00:08:41,876 Speaker 6: will Farrell and I had written a script which we 144 00:08:41,996 --> 00:08:46,396 Speaker 6: couldn't get made over at Paramount, but we had. It 145 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:51,236 Speaker 6: was about a car salesman from Ana who was the 146 00:08:51,316 --> 00:08:56,796 Speaker 6: greatest car salesman but fell into a slump. So we'd 147 00:08:56,836 --> 00:09:00,956 Speaker 6: had so much fun doing that that we decided to 148 00:09:00,996 --> 00:09:07,636 Speaker 6: write another script, and we wrote the Anchorman script, and 149 00:09:07,956 --> 00:09:13,116 Speaker 6: the idea was ways that I would direct it, and 150 00:09:13,676 --> 00:09:17,876 Speaker 6: once again to Lauren's credit, he loved it. He was 151 00:09:18,076 --> 00:09:22,276 Speaker 6: behind it. He was like, McKay can direct. Ferrell is 152 00:09:22,316 --> 00:09:28,796 Speaker 6: a star, and every single studio and financier in town 153 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:35,876 Speaker 6: passed on it. And I'll never forget. We were back 154 00:09:36,036 --> 00:09:40,516 Speaker 6: in my little apartment in New York City and I 155 00:09:40,596 --> 00:09:45,316 Speaker 6: was with Farrell and it, you know, nothing was going 156 00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:48,876 Speaker 6: the way we thought it would go. And the only 157 00:09:49,236 --> 00:09:54,436 Speaker 6: project that anyone wanted to make was this goofy script 158 00:09:54,596 --> 00:09:59,516 Speaker 6: about him as a full adult being an elf. And 159 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:02,916 Speaker 6: we were just sitting in my apartment and we're like, 160 00:10:03,916 --> 00:10:09,076 Speaker 6: we better make this good. I was hired to do that, 161 00:10:09,156 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 6: to rewrite, and we hammered on it, and all the 162 00:10:14,596 --> 00:10:18,996 Speaker 6: studios that it passed on. Anchorman came back and like 163 00:10:19,156 --> 00:10:21,796 Speaker 6: there was like a little bidding war, and. 164 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:23,116 Speaker 5: That was it. 165 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:25,556 Speaker 6: I got to make Anchorman. 166 00:10:26,716 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 1: This is the beginning of your long form career as 167 00:10:29,396 --> 00:10:32,356 Speaker 1: a film director. Yeah, is Ackerman, I remember you telling 168 00:10:32,356 --> 00:10:36,316 Speaker 1: me that Anchorman you always had a kind of political objective, 169 00:10:36,876 --> 00:10:40,876 Speaker 1: a cultural and there was cultural commentary there that maybe 170 00:10:40,916 --> 00:10:43,996 Speaker 1: the audience didn't fully take on because they were too entertained. 171 00:10:44,156 --> 00:10:44,356 Speaker 4: Yeah. 172 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 6: I mean that's the background that I came out of Chicago, 173 00:10:50,516 --> 00:10:56,556 Speaker 6: Second City. Dell Close. Dell Close, who's the famous long 174 00:10:56,636 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 6: form improv teacher, used to always say, if you aim 175 00:11:01,796 --> 00:11:05,996 Speaker 6: for art and you miss, you end up with comedy. 176 00:11:06,796 --> 00:11:09,556 Speaker 6: If you aim for comedy and you miss, you end 177 00:11:09,676 --> 00:11:14,796 Speaker 6: up with crap. So everything we did, even Anchorman, as 178 00:11:14,916 --> 00:11:18,676 Speaker 6: silly as it is, if you look at the way 179 00:11:18,716 --> 00:11:22,916 Speaker 6: we begin it with the shot choices. I mean, we 180 00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:28,556 Speaker 6: were really trying to play it high stakes. Same thing 181 00:11:28,716 --> 00:11:34,556 Speaker 6: with Talladega Knights Step Brothers. Always as ridiculous as they were, 182 00:11:35,316 --> 00:11:37,796 Speaker 6: we were trying to play it at the highest stakes. 183 00:11:38,196 --> 00:11:40,276 Speaker 6: And then Will and I would always have a little 184 00:11:40,476 --> 00:11:46,636 Speaker 6: secret that we were like, Anchorman is actually about the 185 00:11:46,756 --> 00:11:53,716 Speaker 6: collapse of mainstream news media. Talladega Knights is about this 186 00:11:53,996 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 6: backwards pride of the w Bush supporters. Stepbrothers was about 187 00:12:00,956 --> 00:12:08,156 Speaker 6: how consumerism turns grown men into children. And so every 188 00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:12,716 Speaker 6: movie we had this little secret and we never tell anyone. 189 00:12:13,516 --> 00:12:17,676 Speaker 6: So the big shorts, Yeah, I mean it was really 190 00:12:17,756 --> 00:12:21,916 Speaker 6: like someone recommended the book. Oh they have good taste. 191 00:12:22,116 --> 00:12:25,236 Speaker 6: I picked it up, Oh, let me read this, could 192 00:12:25,316 --> 00:12:30,716 Speaker 6: not put it down, and I was like, oh my god, 193 00:12:30,876 --> 00:12:36,796 Speaker 6: this story is incredible. I mean, people forget But at 194 00:12:36,836 --> 00:12:41,076 Speaker 6: the time that book came out, that was like the 195 00:12:41,116 --> 00:12:45,796 Speaker 6: book of that era, because we were in the full 196 00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:53,636 Speaker 6: throes of what people now call the neoliberal economic model. 197 00:12:53,956 --> 00:13:00,956 Speaker 6: That's where essentially corruption became quote smart. And it was 198 00:13:00,996 --> 00:13:06,796 Speaker 6: this weird period which has now come to full blossom 199 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:14,036 Speaker 6: where not only our institutions but our culture itself, the 200 00:13:14,076 --> 00:13:21,796 Speaker 6: way we operate as a society became something that was 201 00:13:21,836 --> 00:13:25,676 Speaker 6: about get what you can get. You know, Michael, you're 202 00:13:25,956 --> 00:13:30,596 Speaker 6: familiar with the last man out theory, which was the 203 00:13:30,836 --> 00:13:35,196 Speaker 6: scariest thing I discovered when I was doing the Big Short, 204 00:13:35,236 --> 00:13:41,196 Speaker 6: and that theory is get everything you can get your bonuses, 205 00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:46,316 Speaker 6: make as much money as you can, screw everything, and 206 00:13:46,556 --> 00:13:51,716 Speaker 6: just don't be the last man left. Make sure you're 207 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:56,476 Speaker 6: out before the collapse. And I really think if you 208 00:13:56,716 --> 00:14:03,836 Speaker 6: look at the neoliberal economic age, that one theory explains 209 00:14:04,316 --> 00:14:08,356 Speaker 6: so much. So yeah, I loved your book. You also 210 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:12,756 Speaker 6: have a really good sense of humor, so you made 211 00:14:12,756 --> 00:14:16,636 Speaker 6: me laugh several times. And then I loved it in 212 00:14:16,756 --> 00:14:20,956 Speaker 6: the book how you would call stuff out and stop 213 00:14:21,676 --> 00:14:25,396 Speaker 6: and say, if you're confused right now. So was I 214 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:29,116 Speaker 6: when I heard this, And that was really the bell 215 00:14:29,356 --> 00:14:30,716 Speaker 6: that went off. 216 00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:34,556 Speaker 1: That was putting Margot Robbie in a bathtub to explain 217 00:14:34,916 --> 00:14:39,356 Speaker 1: credit to fault swaps. Yeah, yeah, So the banks started 218 00:14:39,356 --> 00:14:42,196 Speaker 1: filling these bonds with riskier and riskier. 219 00:14:41,876 --> 00:14:43,236 Speaker 3: Mortgages, thank you, Benja. 220 00:14:44,156 --> 00:14:47,356 Speaker 5: That way they can keep that profit machine churning. Right. 221 00:14:48,436 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 1: By the way, these risky mortgages are called subprime. 222 00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:55,436 Speaker 3: So whenever you hear subprime think shit. 223 00:14:56,956 --> 00:15:00,436 Speaker 1: Our friend Michael Bury found out that these mortgage bonds 224 00:15:00,476 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 1: that were supposedly sixty. 225 00:15:01,956 --> 00:15:05,636 Speaker 3: Five percent triple A were actually just mostly full of shit. 226 00:15:07,276 --> 00:15:08,996 Speaker 3: So now he's going to short. 227 00:15:08,836 --> 00:15:16,116 Speaker 1: The between stabetic games. Got it. You never adapted a 228 00:15:16,116 --> 00:15:18,116 Speaker 1: book before, had you? 229 00:15:18,156 --> 00:15:18,236 Speaker 7: No? 230 00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:24,876 Speaker 6: My wife is a theater director, and she had adapted 231 00:15:24,916 --> 00:15:28,436 Speaker 6: a lot of stuff. It's kind of her specially. But 232 00:15:28,716 --> 00:15:33,076 Speaker 6: most importantly, I knew that there are no hard rules, 233 00:15:33,556 --> 00:15:37,356 Speaker 6: and I also knew from talking to people that they 234 00:15:37,356 --> 00:15:43,036 Speaker 6: were very confused by the financial language. And I said, 235 00:15:43,156 --> 00:15:47,956 Speaker 6: we have to time this exactly right, right at the 236 00:15:48,076 --> 00:15:51,676 Speaker 6: moment where your average audience is like, what are they 237 00:15:51,916 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 6: talking about? We have to stop. And I knew we 238 00:15:57,756 --> 00:16:01,916 Speaker 6: had picked the right moment when my sound guy came 239 00:16:01,956 --> 00:16:06,356 Speaker 6: to me and said, hey, Adam, I just got to 240 00:16:06,436 --> 00:16:10,796 Speaker 6: let you know, this is really confused, and I was like, yes, 241 00:16:11,356 --> 00:16:12,796 Speaker 6: We're in good shape. 242 00:16:17,516 --> 00:16:18,276 Speaker 5: When we come back. 243 00:16:18,356 --> 00:16:20,636 Speaker 1: I asked Adam McKay how he got so many big 244 00:16:20,676 --> 00:16:22,516 Speaker 1: stars to sign up for the Big Short. 245 00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:32,316 Speaker 7: How did the Volkswagen Beetle go from being Hitler's dream 246 00:16:32,396 --> 00:16:35,716 Speaker 7: car to a hippie icon. How did a disgruntled center 247 00:16:35,756 --> 00:16:39,476 Speaker 7: fielder change the business of sports I'm Jacob Goldstein and 248 00:16:39,596 --> 00:16:42,396 Speaker 7: on Business History, my co host Robert Smith and I 249 00:16:42,436 --> 00:16:45,436 Speaker 7: dig into the people and companies who created the modern world. 250 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:49,436 Speaker 7: Business History is full of innovations and failures and insights 251 00:16:49,436 --> 00:16:52,676 Speaker 7: into how business works today. At the end of today's 252 00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:54,676 Speaker 7: episode of Against the Rules, we're going to play a 253 00:16:54,716 --> 00:16:59,076 Speaker 7: clip from our episode about Jim Simon's decades ago. Simon's 254 00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:03,636 Speaker 7: basically invented modern algorithmic trading, and after a few early hiccups, 255 00:17:03,916 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 7: including buying up all the potatoes in Maine, Simon's built 256 00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:11,876 Speaker 7: a machine that generated in incredible returns for decades. The 257 00:17:11,916 --> 00:17:14,836 Speaker 7: show is called Business History and the previous coming up. 258 00:17:14,876 --> 00:17:26,076 Speaker 7: At the end of today's episode of Against the Rules. 259 00:17:23,036 --> 00:17:26,756 Speaker 1: I'm back with writer and director Adam McKay. 260 00:17:27,596 --> 00:17:27,876 Speaker 2: For you. 261 00:17:27,996 --> 00:17:30,516 Speaker 1: What were the challenges like taking the book and turning 262 00:17:30,556 --> 00:17:32,716 Speaker 1: into a script or did it just kind of come naturally? 263 00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:37,476 Speaker 6: Well, you know, there was already a script written Charles 264 00:17:37,876 --> 00:17:42,916 Speaker 6: Charles Randolph had written a script, and I was like, oh, 265 00:17:42,956 --> 00:17:46,596 Speaker 6: there's some really good stuff in here, but I know 266 00:17:46,756 --> 00:17:51,836 Speaker 6: exactly what to do, and that rewrite. I think it 267 00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:56,556 Speaker 6: was turned around pretty quickly. And then Paramount had the 268 00:17:56,876 --> 00:18:01,836 Speaker 6: script and they have no interest because they're like the 269 00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:06,756 Speaker 6: guy who did step Brothers with Wall Street, and we 270 00:18:06,836 --> 00:18:10,996 Speaker 6: realized we had to get big star. So just on 271 00:18:11,036 --> 00:18:16,756 Speaker 6: our own, we went out to Christian Bale, Ryan Gosling, 272 00:18:17,036 --> 00:18:21,396 Speaker 6: Brad Pitt and it was one of those freaky moments 273 00:18:21,436 --> 00:18:26,596 Speaker 6: where they all said yes. And Adam Goodman was running 274 00:18:26,756 --> 00:18:30,716 Speaker 6: Paramount and to his credit, he was like, okay, I 275 00:18:30,716 --> 00:18:34,236 Speaker 6: mean they didn't give us a huge amount of money, 276 00:18:34,716 --> 00:18:37,236 Speaker 6: but they gave us, you know, the green light, and 277 00:18:37,276 --> 00:18:38,316 Speaker 6: that was it. 278 00:18:39,596 --> 00:18:42,876 Speaker 1: Do you know why your actors said yes? Do you 279 00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:45,316 Speaker 1: know why Christian Bale and Ryan Gosling and Brad Pitt 280 00:18:45,316 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 1: all said I want to do I'm. 281 00:18:46,276 --> 00:18:51,036 Speaker 6: Gonna say this and it sounds very immodest. 282 00:18:50,956 --> 00:18:53,196 Speaker 5: But that was a good script. 283 00:18:53,596 --> 00:18:59,156 Speaker 6: Like that was I mean, these actors get, you know, 284 00:18:59,716 --> 00:19:04,916 Speaker 6: one hundred scripts a year, maybe they read like thirty 285 00:19:05,076 --> 00:19:09,476 Speaker 6: or forty. That was a good script. And then in 286 00:19:09,556 --> 00:19:14,636 Speaker 6: every case I met with them before they said yes, 287 00:19:14,756 --> 00:19:18,316 Speaker 6: so I was able to say, like, I know you 288 00:19:18,516 --> 00:19:22,916 Speaker 6: know me from X Y Z, but here's how I 289 00:19:23,036 --> 00:19:28,076 Speaker 6: see this. This will be different. I right away knew 290 00:19:28,116 --> 00:19:33,596 Speaker 6: that I wanted Barry Ackroyd to be the DP because 291 00:19:33,636 --> 00:19:37,276 Speaker 6: we had a lot of scenes in offices, and we 292 00:19:37,436 --> 00:19:42,556 Speaker 6: needed to make the mundane of a phone call have urgency. 293 00:19:43,156 --> 00:19:49,076 Speaker 6: And no one adds life to scenes like Barry Ackroyd. 294 00:19:49,196 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 1: Give me an example of how he creates drama from 295 00:19:52,716 --> 00:19:53,276 Speaker 1: a phone call. 296 00:19:53,796 --> 00:19:54,996 Speaker 5: That's this is different. 297 00:19:55,516 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 6: So what he does is his background is as a 298 00:20:01,556 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 6: documentary filmmaker. So we started with long lens in the 299 00:20:08,116 --> 00:20:13,636 Speaker 6: corner of the room, don't look at me, and crazy 300 00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:18,356 Speaker 6: stuff going on. And through the years of doing that, 301 00:20:19,116 --> 00:20:22,836 Speaker 6: he learned how to look for the right light, how 302 00:20:22,876 --> 00:20:27,836 Speaker 6: to find the artistic shot. And by the time I 303 00:20:27,996 --> 00:20:32,796 Speaker 6: met him and he was at full peak ability and 304 00:20:32,956 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 6: the only thing I told him was occasionally, I'm going 305 00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:44,956 Speaker 6: to want to do traditional Dolly, big Hollywood shots. I 306 00:20:44,996 --> 00:20:48,956 Speaker 6: wanted to be a blend. And he was totally cool 307 00:20:49,036 --> 00:20:53,076 Speaker 6: with it. And it was some of the most exciting 308 00:20:53,476 --> 00:20:59,436 Speaker 6: filmmaking I have ever seen because it's a constant process 309 00:20:59,596 --> 00:21:04,196 Speaker 6: of discovery. He kind of treats it like I don't 310 00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:08,556 Speaker 6: know what's going to happen. This is a documentary, So 311 00:21:09,556 --> 00:21:15,596 Speaker 6: you can see them constantly zooming in finding something, Oh, 312 00:21:15,676 --> 00:21:21,996 Speaker 6: I like this hangout. Meanwhile, I'm behind the monitor going, oh, Verry, 313 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:23,956 Speaker 6: that is incredible. 314 00:21:24,196 --> 00:21:25,756 Speaker 1: But you know what, you know what that sounds like. 315 00:21:25,796 --> 00:21:30,476 Speaker 1: It sounds like a visual a rhyme with how you 316 00:21:30,516 --> 00:21:33,876 Speaker 1: approach the words. You are so open, you're holding your 317 00:21:33,876 --> 00:21:37,716 Speaker 1: script so loosely, and you're letting things happen sometimes that 318 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:41,516 Speaker 1: aren't in the script, always so that you don't know 319 00:21:41,796 --> 00:21:45,596 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. That if everybody was sort of 320 00:21:45,676 --> 00:21:47,036 Speaker 1: like roped to the words on. 321 00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:52,556 Speaker 6: The page, I actually think, see what you think of this, Michael. 322 00:21:52,796 --> 00:22:00,356 Speaker 6: I think this hyper capitalist end result culture we're now 323 00:22:00,916 --> 00:22:07,156 Speaker 6: in eradicates discovery. So if you're gonna sell a book 324 00:22:07,716 --> 00:22:11,476 Speaker 6: or you're going to write an article, you have to 325 00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:16,636 Speaker 6: tell them the conclusion. And I'm old enough to remember 326 00:22:17,276 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 6: the early eighties the late seventies, people would go into 327 00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:28,116 Speaker 6: movies and have no idea where it was gonna end up. 328 00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:33,116 Speaker 6: There would be investigative pieces where the writer would start 329 00:22:33,156 --> 00:22:38,236 Speaker 6: with A and end up with like W. And the 330 00:22:38,316 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 6: more and more financialized America has become the less unless. 331 00:22:45,156 --> 00:22:46,356 Speaker 5: You see that. 332 00:22:47,156 --> 00:22:51,316 Speaker 6: I think our lower budget helped us a lot with 333 00:22:51,436 --> 00:22:56,396 Speaker 6: the big short. You know, the executives could have missed 334 00:22:56,556 --> 00:23:01,116 Speaker 6: on it, and once we got those big stars, they 335 00:23:01,116 --> 00:23:05,596 Speaker 6: had cover for the boardroom. Like if the boardroom asked them, 336 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:09,436 Speaker 6: why did you give thirty five million dollars to the 337 00:23:09,436 --> 00:23:12,716 Speaker 6: guy who did Step Brothers. They could just say, we 338 00:23:12,756 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 6: have Brad Pitt, Christian Bale, Ryan Gosling, Steve Carell, and 339 00:23:17,316 --> 00:23:18,036 Speaker 6: on and on. 340 00:23:18,756 --> 00:23:21,276 Speaker 1: I am at my best, and the best things happen 341 00:23:21,716 --> 00:23:24,876 Speaker 1: when I have a very loose notion and I don't 342 00:23:24,876 --> 00:23:28,476 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen. I love that that feeling 343 00:23:28,556 --> 00:23:30,436 Speaker 1: of like being on a ride you're not quite sure 344 00:23:30,476 --> 00:23:33,996 Speaker 1: where it's going. So the actors gave you cover. How 345 00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:37,196 Speaker 1: did you decide who was going to play who? Let's 346 00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:38,156 Speaker 1: take one. How did you. 347 00:23:38,116 --> 00:23:40,316 Speaker 5: Pick Christian Bale to play Michael Berry? 348 00:23:42,036 --> 00:23:42,756 Speaker 4: He's just. 349 00:23:44,636 --> 00:23:51,116 Speaker 6: One of the ten greatest film actors ever. And I 350 00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:55,316 Speaker 6: would just say, if you're gonna like create that list 351 00:23:55,716 --> 00:24:00,716 Speaker 6: of people that are chameleons, people that are really artists. 352 00:24:01,116 --> 00:24:07,716 Speaker 6: I started doing all this stuff in nineteen ninety, which 353 00:24:07,756 --> 00:24:11,956 Speaker 6: is crazy, and so I've met a lot of actors. 354 00:24:12,036 --> 00:24:15,836 Speaker 6: We had a lot of hosts at Saturday Night Live. 355 00:24:16,516 --> 00:24:19,276 Speaker 6: I was doing those short films. I got to work 356 00:24:19,356 --> 00:24:25,476 Speaker 6: with feature actors, and I just started noticing that there 357 00:24:25,556 --> 00:24:32,476 Speaker 6: is a giant gulf between personality actors who kind of 358 00:24:32,556 --> 00:24:37,836 Speaker 6: operate off their charisma with some real skills, and then 359 00:24:37,916 --> 00:24:42,076 Speaker 6: these like I mean, for lack of a better term, 360 00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:49,436 Speaker 6: but like real artists and Bail just wow. Seeing his 361 00:24:50,796 --> 00:24:53,596 Speaker 6: process was incredible. 362 00:24:54,116 --> 00:24:54,916 Speaker 5: I was watching it. 363 00:24:54,996 --> 00:24:57,916 Speaker 1: I was thinking, oh my god, that's Michael Berry on 364 00:24:57,996 --> 00:24:58,476 Speaker 1: the screen. 365 00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:09,276 Speaker 7: I've always been more comfortable alone. 366 00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:19,316 Speaker 5: I believe it was because of my glass eye. I 367 00:25:19,356 --> 00:25:27,676 Speaker 5: lost the eye. A child of alash separates me from people. 368 00:25:31,996 --> 00:25:35,196 Speaker 1: I could not have told Christian Bale how to do it. 369 00:25:35,636 --> 00:25:38,556 Speaker 1: That meant Christian Bale figured stuff out that I had 370 00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:42,716 Speaker 1: not articulated. So this bothered me because I thought, I'm 371 00:25:42,756 --> 00:25:45,716 Speaker 1: an observer, I'm an observant chap. I should have observed 372 00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:48,076 Speaker 1: whatever it was that he would have needed to play 373 00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:52,836 Speaker 1: Michael Berry. So we're on the junket and I'm you know, 374 00:25:52,996 --> 00:25:55,996 Speaker 1: on stage, you know, four or five times with Christian Bale, 375 00:25:55,996 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 1: and you sometimes talking about the movie in the book 376 00:25:58,676 --> 00:26:01,276 Speaker 1: and the story, and backstage I have a lot of 377 00:26:01,316 --> 00:26:04,716 Speaker 1: time to chit chat with him, and I kept badgering him, like, 378 00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:07,316 Speaker 1: how the hell did you do that? Because all I 379 00:26:07,396 --> 00:26:10,596 Speaker 1: knew was like Michael Berry had told me, Michael Berry said, 380 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:12,356 Speaker 1: I called him, I said, what's going on? 381 00:26:12,516 --> 00:26:13,236 Speaker 5: With the movie he goes. 382 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:16,516 Speaker 1: He said, Christian Bale visited me. He's the weirdest guy 383 00:26:16,556 --> 00:26:18,516 Speaker 1: I've ever met. And I said, if Michael Berry is 384 00:26:18,516 --> 00:26:20,396 Speaker 1: calling you weird, and I said, well, what was weird 385 00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:22,676 Speaker 1: about it? He said, he said, he just want to 386 00:26:22,676 --> 00:26:25,316 Speaker 1: come for a day. He came in the morning, sat 387 00:26:25,356 --> 00:26:28,716 Speaker 1: across from me until the evening, did not get up 388 00:26:28,796 --> 00:26:31,436 Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom, and just watched me the 389 00:26:31,476 --> 00:26:34,276 Speaker 1: whole day and asked me some questions. And then at 390 00:26:34,316 --> 00:26:36,156 Speaker 1: the end of it, he said, could I just could 391 00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:38,316 Speaker 1: I have that T shirt in those shorts because I'm 392 00:26:38,356 --> 00:26:38,956 Speaker 1: going to use those. 393 00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:41,916 Speaker 5: I'm gonna weare those when I play you and Wow. 394 00:26:42,596 --> 00:26:42,996 Speaker 5: But I saw. 395 00:26:43,036 --> 00:26:44,636 Speaker 1: I went to Christi Balle, I said, like, what the 396 00:26:44,676 --> 00:26:46,956 Speaker 1: hell happened in those twelve hours? Like what did you 397 00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:50,276 Speaker 1: figure out? Because there was something about his body, languages. 398 00:26:50,316 --> 00:26:52,676 Speaker 1: I couldn't figure out why he had got him because 399 00:26:52,836 --> 00:26:56,156 Speaker 1: Michael Berry, in his presence, you feel this discomfort. And 400 00:26:56,276 --> 00:26:58,996 Speaker 1: Christian Bale had replicated that, and he says to me, 401 00:27:00,036 --> 00:27:02,876 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it. I really pestered 402 00:27:02,956 --> 00:27:06,036 Speaker 1: him and finally he says, okay. He says, it wasn't 403 00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:08,596 Speaker 1: that complicated. Oh, if you watched him, you could see 404 00:27:08,676 --> 00:27:11,236 Speaker 1: he does it's a breathing. He breathes in the wrong 405 00:27:11,276 --> 00:27:14,036 Speaker 1: places of sentences. Yes, and he says as long and 406 00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:16,956 Speaker 1: if you do that, you get all herky jerky. And 407 00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:21,996 Speaker 1: I had not noticed that. The genius in seeing that 408 00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:24,436 Speaker 1: with just breathtaking to me. And he said to me, 409 00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:27,716 Speaker 1: I told McKay, just reminded me to breathe in the 410 00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:30,996 Speaker 1: wrong places and everything else will come. Does that ring 411 00:27:30,996 --> 00:27:31,276 Speaker 1: a bell? 412 00:27:32,156 --> 00:27:38,036 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, oh yeah, he told me exactly that. What 413 00:27:38,516 --> 00:27:44,316 Speaker 6: I noticed about him Bury is he's a lovely guy. 414 00:27:45,116 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 6: I noticed this contrast of extremely sensitive, big heart and 415 00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:58,876 Speaker 6: then armor. We never got into the way he was raised. 416 00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:03,876 Speaker 6: We didn't need to, but I could identify with the 417 00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:11,196 Speaker 6: idea growing up as a nineteen seventies latchkey kid with 418 00:28:11,396 --> 00:28:16,996 Speaker 6: kind of the tumult of childhood, the chaos, seeking a 419 00:28:17,196 --> 00:28:18,316 Speaker 6: safe place. 420 00:28:20,956 --> 00:28:22,396 Speaker 5: So we're going to take a quick break now. 421 00:28:22,796 --> 00:28:25,076 Speaker 1: When we return, Adam McKay and I talk about the 422 00:28:25,116 --> 00:28:28,916 Speaker 1: event behind both the book and the movie, the financial 423 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:39,876 Speaker 1: Crisis of two thousand and eight. When I think of 424 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 1: the difference between the movie and the book that you know, 425 00:28:43,916 --> 00:28:47,476 Speaker 1: aside from Margaret Robbie being in a bathtub rather than 426 00:28:47,476 --> 00:28:51,676 Speaker 1: a footnote in my book talking to the reader, I 427 00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:53,156 Speaker 1: think there's a tonal difference. 428 00:28:54,716 --> 00:28:58,476 Speaker 5: It's to your credit, it's to your moral credit. The 429 00:28:58,556 --> 00:28:59,916 Speaker 5: movie's angrier than the book. 430 00:29:01,156 --> 00:29:02,676 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah. 431 00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:04,756 Speaker 1: And it may be partly because some time had passed 432 00:29:04,796 --> 00:29:07,596 Speaker 1: and we could see what had happened. Yeah, it was 433 00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:10,156 Speaker 1: part I think it's partly temperamental. I think you have 434 00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:11,756 Speaker 1: an ability to get angrier than I do. 435 00:29:13,476 --> 00:29:13,636 Speaker 5: Well. 436 00:29:13,676 --> 00:29:18,836 Speaker 6: You know, that is a great point because I always 437 00:29:18,996 --> 00:29:24,036 Speaker 6: joked with Ferrell that when we did those broad comedies, 438 00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:30,436 Speaker 6: I used to call Anchorman, Taladegan, Knights and step Brothers 439 00:29:31,156 --> 00:29:36,556 Speaker 6: the mediocre white Man Trilogy, because they're all about white 440 00:29:36,556 --> 00:29:40,916 Speaker 6: guys who think they're better than they are. I think 441 00:29:40,956 --> 00:29:47,916 Speaker 6: they're more powerful unearned confidence and really, looking back on it, 442 00:29:47,956 --> 00:29:51,396 Speaker 6: when you go big Short vice don't look up, yep, 443 00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:55,156 Speaker 6: I would call it the collapse trilogy. 444 00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:55,476 Speaker 5: Yep. 445 00:29:55,516 --> 00:30:01,356 Speaker 6: I mean, I think now even mainstream people can admit, 446 00:30:01,716 --> 00:30:07,156 Speaker 6: like the West is collapsing, like the climate is collapsing, 447 00:30:07,316 --> 00:30:12,876 Speaker 6: you know. And Big Short was the first with that 448 00:30:13,236 --> 00:30:17,756 Speaker 6: in the sense that I was really angry with Obama 449 00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:24,796 Speaker 6: for not prosecuting, not doing the right thing as far 450 00:30:24,916 --> 00:30:29,796 Speaker 6: as the allocation of all the money taking care of 451 00:30:29,876 --> 00:30:34,196 Speaker 6: the homeowners. And that was kind of my peak betrayal 452 00:30:34,356 --> 00:30:39,676 Speaker 6: moment because I had really is embarrassing, but I had 453 00:30:39,796 --> 00:30:44,956 Speaker 6: really believed in Obama. It just never occurred to me 454 00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:50,556 Speaker 6: that someone could be so cynical in that vulnerable moment. 455 00:30:50,876 --> 00:30:55,756 Speaker 6: It never occurred to me that someone could step into 456 00:30:55,796 --> 00:31:03,596 Speaker 6: that seat and just go same old, same old confrontation adverse. 457 00:31:04,556 --> 00:31:07,236 Speaker 6: And that betrayal was really deep. 458 00:31:07,596 --> 00:31:10,996 Speaker 5: You got radicalized by the financial crisis. 459 00:31:12,516 --> 00:31:15,596 Speaker 6: Yes, I mean, the only thing I'll say is I've 460 00:31:15,716 --> 00:31:17,636 Speaker 6: always been left. 461 00:31:17,916 --> 00:31:19,236 Speaker 5: I grew up you know this. 462 00:31:19,556 --> 00:31:23,356 Speaker 6: You know, we were on food stamps, welfare. 463 00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:23,676 Speaker 5: I was poor. 464 00:31:24,276 --> 00:31:27,476 Speaker 6: So I always grew up as the guy who's like, look, 465 00:31:28,036 --> 00:31:35,436 Speaker 6: this system worked. That LBJ great society was really working 466 00:31:35,676 --> 00:31:39,916 Speaker 6: in the seventies, in the early eighties before Reagan and 467 00:31:39,956 --> 00:31:46,076 Speaker 6: then Bill Clinton dismantled it. But I definitely the anger 468 00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:47,596 Speaker 6: you're talking about. 469 00:31:47,836 --> 00:31:49,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's well earned. 470 00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:51,676 Speaker 5: It's well earned. It's a funny thing. 471 00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:53,876 Speaker 1: I don't feel I have the right to be angry. 472 00:31:53,956 --> 00:31:56,516 Speaker 1: It's that you were really a little bit. I mean, 473 00:31:56,556 --> 00:31:58,596 Speaker 1: it's just that I was raised with the opposite you. 474 00:31:58,636 --> 00:32:02,036 Speaker 1: I was raised with incredible privilege. Not only did I 475 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:04,236 Speaker 1: did we not have food stamps. I couldn't have told 476 00:32:04,236 --> 00:32:07,276 Speaker 1: you what a food stamp was. I thought, it's like 477 00:32:07,316 --> 00:32:10,036 Speaker 1: something you put on our letter. You know, it's or 478 00:32:10,116 --> 00:32:12,876 Speaker 1: collected and sold for profit. 479 00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:19,036 Speaker 6: I'm to your credit. Pretty much every book you've written 480 00:32:19,676 --> 00:32:24,276 Speaker 6: has been suspicious of the power structure, the jargon. 481 00:32:24,636 --> 00:32:26,676 Speaker 1: But it comes from a different place. It comes from 482 00:32:26,676 --> 00:32:29,676 Speaker 1: New Orleans. It comes from being an outsider to the 483 00:32:29,996 --> 00:32:33,956 Speaker 1: mainstream culture, and I think that's where it starts. 484 00:32:33,836 --> 00:32:35,916 Speaker 5: Also, but also comes from a place of. 485 00:32:36,356 --> 00:32:39,996 Speaker 1: I do have the fairness gene, like I get really injustice. 486 00:32:40,036 --> 00:32:41,996 Speaker 1: In unfairness really upsets me. 487 00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:44,796 Speaker 5: And so that's that's the other thing. 488 00:32:45,316 --> 00:32:46,676 Speaker 1: We only have a few minutes left, And there was 489 00:32:46,676 --> 00:32:49,396 Speaker 1: something I wanted to say, because first off, it was 490 00:32:49,516 --> 00:32:52,836 Speaker 1: very clearly the least likely book. 491 00:32:52,556 --> 00:32:54,316 Speaker 5: Of mine to be turned into a movie. 492 00:32:54,476 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 1: So it was to me an amazing triumph it happened 493 00:32:56,996 --> 00:32:58,796 Speaker 1: at all. It was like the dog walking on its 494 00:32:58,836 --> 00:32:59,476 Speaker 1: hind legs. 495 00:32:59,476 --> 00:33:01,796 Speaker 5: Thing, like the wonder is that does it well? Is 496 00:33:01,836 --> 00:33:02,596 Speaker 5: that it does it at all? 497 00:33:02,916 --> 00:33:05,076 Speaker 1: But that it was that good, and it was so 498 00:33:05,156 --> 00:33:08,756 Speaker 1: difficult to make the degree of difficulty was incredible, and 499 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:11,276 Speaker 1: so it was in some ways the movie that I 500 00:33:11,316 --> 00:33:16,676 Speaker 1: felt least responsible for. So it was touching and curious 501 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:20,916 Speaker 1: to me that when the movie came out, you insisted 502 00:33:20,956 --> 00:33:24,676 Speaker 1: on dragging me along for the ride, and so that 503 00:33:24,716 --> 00:33:26,876 Speaker 1: I not only was I doing the junkets with you, 504 00:33:26,996 --> 00:33:28,876 Speaker 1: but I was in the second row of the Oscars. 505 00:33:28,916 --> 00:33:31,116 Speaker 1: I'd been to the Oscars before, but i'd been by 506 00:33:31,156 --> 00:33:33,196 Speaker 1: the time I got to the Oscars for The blind 507 00:33:33,236 --> 00:33:36,196 Speaker 1: Side and Moneyball, I was very much a spectator, like 508 00:33:36,236 --> 00:33:38,076 Speaker 1: I was just there to watch the you know, everybody 509 00:33:38,156 --> 00:33:41,636 Speaker 1: get nominated and maybe win. In this case, I sit 510 00:33:41,676 --> 00:33:44,196 Speaker 1: down on my seat in the second row and one 511 00:33:44,196 --> 00:33:47,076 Speaker 1: of the Oscars attendants come over and says, if the 512 00:33:47,156 --> 00:33:49,076 Speaker 1: movie wins Best Picture and it had a real shot, 513 00:33:49,556 --> 00:33:51,956 Speaker 1: says Adam McKay, insists that you come on stage and 514 00:33:52,076 --> 00:33:52,596 Speaker 1: receive the. 515 00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:53,276 Speaker 5: Oscar with us. 516 00:33:54,196 --> 00:33:56,556 Speaker 1: And I was so I was really touched by that, 517 00:33:56,756 --> 00:33:59,436 Speaker 1: like like I teared up, like it was just like 518 00:33:59,476 --> 00:34:01,356 Speaker 1: could it was wholly. 519 00:34:01,156 --> 00:34:02,556 Speaker 5: Unnecessary on your part. 520 00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:05,636 Speaker 1: I really have thought from the minute I started at 521 00:34:05,716 --> 00:34:08,356 Speaker 1: interactions with the movie business that everybody in the movie 522 00:34:08,356 --> 00:34:10,796 Speaker 1: business would really for the author to be dead because 523 00:34:10,796 --> 00:34:14,596 Speaker 1: he does CAUs he causes nothing but trouble, like there's no. 524 00:34:14,636 --> 00:34:17,396 Speaker 3: Upside, and and and you. 525 00:34:17,396 --> 00:34:21,116 Speaker 1: Wanted to be alive. I was just really pleased with that. 526 00:34:21,716 --> 00:34:22,996 Speaker 1: And I'm and grateful. 527 00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:29,356 Speaker 6: I've said to you over and over again through the years, 528 00:34:29,996 --> 00:34:36,236 Speaker 6: the energy of reading that book is directly. 529 00:34:35,916 --> 00:34:37,036 Speaker 5: In the movie. 530 00:34:37,716 --> 00:34:42,636 Speaker 6: I just think maybe part of the power of your stories, 531 00:34:43,836 --> 00:34:47,036 Speaker 6: you know, it's the fact that you do come from 532 00:34:47,076 --> 00:34:50,156 Speaker 6: a whatever you want to call it, privilege, you know, 533 00:34:50,436 --> 00:34:57,076 Speaker 6: somewhat wealthy background and New Orleans, which is an outsider city. 534 00:34:57,676 --> 00:35:03,316 Speaker 6: I mean, you look historically like a lot of revolutionaries 535 00:35:03,356 --> 00:35:10,716 Speaker 6: were wealthy. And there's a credibility to that voice that 536 00:35:10,996 --> 00:35:16,076 Speaker 6: really can't be challenged because no one can say to you, oh, 537 00:35:16,276 --> 00:35:22,036 Speaker 6: Michael Lewis, you just want to get rich. Here's my privilege, 538 00:35:22,236 --> 00:35:26,516 Speaker 6: here's my name. There's a real power to it. And 539 00:35:26,716 --> 00:35:30,996 Speaker 6: I think your point about I believe in fairness stands 540 00:35:31,036 --> 00:35:35,196 Speaker 6: stronger because you come from where you come from. 541 00:35:35,596 --> 00:35:39,836 Speaker 1: In your movies, you make these useful and jarring cuts 542 00:35:39,836 --> 00:35:42,156 Speaker 1: from one thing to the next. I'm going to make 543 00:35:42,156 --> 00:35:44,476 Speaker 1: a useful and jarring cut to the end of this conversation. 544 00:35:44,916 --> 00:35:47,156 Speaker 6: Thanks for doing us pleasure, man. 545 00:35:53,476 --> 00:35:54,996 Speaker 5: The pleasure is always mine. 546 00:35:55,436 --> 00:35:57,996 Speaker 1: I always leave any conversation with Adam McKay feeling like 547 00:35:58,036 --> 00:35:58,396 Speaker 1: I want to go. 548 00:35:58,436 --> 00:36:00,116 Speaker 5: Write something again anyway. 549 00:36:00,556 --> 00:36:02,756 Speaker 1: Coming up next week, we're going to beat some of 550 00:36:02,756 --> 00:36:06,156 Speaker 1: the real life characters, the short sellers, traders and investment 551 00:36:06,196 --> 00:36:08,716 Speaker 1: bankers who appeared in both the movie and the book, 552 00:36:09,796 --> 00:36:12,636 Speaker 1: the ones who saw the financial crisis looming long before 553 00:36:12,636 --> 00:36:16,396 Speaker 1: anyone else did. Thanks for listening to this episode of 554 00:36:16,436 --> 00:36:19,676 Speaker 1: The Big Short Companion podcast, See you soon. 555 00:36:30,796 --> 00:36:33,636 Speaker 2: Against the Rules The Big Short Companion is hosted by 556 00:36:33,636 --> 00:36:37,276 Speaker 2: Michael Lewis. It's produced by Me Ludy, Jean Kott, and 557 00:36:37,356 --> 00:36:42,316 Speaker 2: Catherine Girodeau. Our editor is Julia Barton. Our theme was 558 00:36:42,356 --> 00:36:46,156 Speaker 2: composed by Nick Burtel, and our engineer is Hans Dale. 559 00:36:46,156 --> 00:36:52,196 Speaker 2: She special thanks to Nicole opten Bosch, Jasmine Faustino, Pamela 560 00:36:52,276 --> 00:36:56,516 Speaker 2: Lawrence and the rest of the Pushkin Audiobooks team. Against 561 00:36:56,516 --> 00:36:59,796 Speaker 2: the Rules is the production of Pushkin Industries. To find 562 00:36:59,836 --> 00:37:04,316 Speaker 2: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 563 00:37:04,676 --> 00:37:07,476 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to podcasts, and if you'd like 564 00:37:07,516 --> 00:37:10,956 Speaker 2: to listen ad free and learn't about other exclusive offerings. 565 00:37:11,236 --> 00:37:13,676 Speaker 2: Don't forget to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription 566 00:37:14,236 --> 00:37:18,556 Speaker 2: at Pushkin dot fm, slash Plus or Honor Apple Show page, 567 00:37:19,356 --> 00:37:22,236 Speaker 2: and you can get the big short now at Pushkin, 568 00:37:22,396 --> 00:37:27,356 Speaker 2: dot fm, slash Audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. 569 00:37:35,196 --> 00:37:37,316 Speaker 7: It's Jacob Goldstein. I'm the co host of a new 570 00:37:37,316 --> 00:37:40,236 Speaker 7: show called Business History, and we're bringing you a clip 571 00:37:40,316 --> 00:37:43,236 Speaker 7: right now from an episode we did about a mathematician 572 00:37:43,316 --> 00:37:47,396 Speaker 7: named Jim Simon's. Simons wanted to take human emotions out 573 00:37:47,396 --> 00:37:51,356 Speaker 7: of investing, and after a few early hiccups, including buying 574 00:37:51,436 --> 00:37:54,276 Speaker 7: up all the potatoes in Maine, he created one of 575 00:37:54,316 --> 00:37:57,516 Speaker 7: the greatest money machines in history. I really hope you 576 00:37:57,596 --> 00:37:59,436 Speaker 7: like the clip, and if you want to hear more, 577 00:37:59,556 --> 00:38:02,716 Speaker 7: please check out the show. It's called Business History and 578 00:38:02,756 --> 00:38:05,636 Speaker 7: it's available wherever you're listening right now. 579 00:38:06,556 --> 00:38:09,796 Speaker 4: They were doing what we would call today michechine learning. 580 00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:14,236 Speaker 7: Machine learning is like, essentially, you build a system in 581 00:38:14,276 --> 00:38:16,236 Speaker 7: a computer, you feeded a bunch of data, and the 582 00:38:16,276 --> 00:38:19,196 Speaker 7: system sort of builds a map of the relationships in 583 00:38:19,236 --> 00:38:21,596 Speaker 7: that data, and then with new data it can kind 584 00:38:21,596 --> 00:38:25,196 Speaker 7: of interpolate or extrapolate and make guesses about what should 585 00:38:25,236 --> 00:38:25,716 Speaker 7: come next. 586 00:38:26,036 --> 00:38:27,276 Speaker 4: And of course today. 587 00:38:26,956 --> 00:38:31,676 Speaker 7: We have an exciting, maybe misleading confounding term for machine learning. 588 00:38:32,156 --> 00:38:35,156 Speaker 4: We call it AI exactly right, right, this is still 589 00:38:35,316 --> 00:38:38,356 Speaker 4: very basic machine learning, and the computer at the time 590 00:38:38,916 --> 00:38:42,996 Speaker 4: keeps making mistakes that they didn't really understand. So, for instance, 591 00:38:43,836 --> 00:38:50,116 Speaker 4: once the computer developed a taste for potatoes, main potatoes, 592 00:38:50,636 --> 00:38:55,756 Speaker 4: the system kept buying main potato futures in the state 593 00:38:55,756 --> 00:39:00,796 Speaker 4: of Maine, potato potatoes, big harvest year, next year or whatever. Yes, okay, 594 00:39:01,196 --> 00:39:04,916 Speaker 4: until two thirds of the company's money was in potatoes. 595 00:39:04,996 --> 00:39:07,276 Speaker 4: They were all in potatoes. And they got a call 596 00:39:07,316 --> 00:39:08,316 Speaker 4: from the regulators, the. 597 00:39:08,276 --> 00:39:12,756 Speaker 7: Cftb PP comodi's Futures Trading Commission. 598 00:39:12,396 --> 00:39:16,116 Speaker 4: Right yeah, saying whoa who are you guys, Like, what 599 00:39:16,156 --> 00:39:18,516 Speaker 4: are you doing over there? You have almost cornered the 600 00:39:18,556 --> 00:39:22,476 Speaker 4: market on potatoes. You have to sell. And they ended 601 00:39:22,556 --> 00:39:27,556 Speaker 4: up losing money on the trade because blown out on potatoes, 602 00:39:27,676 --> 00:39:31,356 Speaker 4: they had stopped the computer whatever the computer's plan was. 603 00:39:31,996 --> 00:39:34,756 Speaker 4: But you know, this was just one small weird thing. 604 00:39:35,156 --> 00:39:38,916 Speaker 4: Simon and Baum were really kind of nervous about this 605 00:39:38,956 --> 00:39:41,836 Speaker 4: whole thing. They had taken investors money, they didn't really 606 00:39:41,836 --> 00:39:46,036 Speaker 4: know if their system worked. And as the story gets told, 607 00:39:46,116 --> 00:39:49,276 Speaker 4: they start to like second guess the computer and themselves, 608 00:39:49,316 --> 00:39:51,596 Speaker 4: and they start to think, well, I have this intuition 609 00:39:51,716 --> 00:39:55,396 Speaker 4: that gold's gonna go up because of the geopolitical situation, 610 00:39:55,636 --> 00:39:57,316 Speaker 4: and they'd make some money on that, and then they 611 00:39:57,396 --> 00:40:00,636 Speaker 4: lose some money on that, and so by doubting their 612 00:40:00,676 --> 00:40:04,116 Speaker 4: own system, it just wasn't really working. And at that 613 00:40:04,196 --> 00:40:06,556 Speaker 4: point they're just Wall Street investors. Right when the big 614 00:40:06,556 --> 00:40:09,676 Speaker 4: computer trying to buy more potatoes and and the man 615 00:40:09,756 --> 00:40:11,076 Speaker 4: won't let em buy potatoes.