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Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. There's no reason

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Speaker 1: in the twenty first century that people should be going hungry.

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Speaker 1: But people are going hungry. According to the Food and

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Speaker 1: Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, in twenty nineteen, nearly

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Speaker 1: seven hundred million people across the world we're facing hunger

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Speaker 1: and poor nutrition. That's almost one in ten people. With

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Speaker 1: the onset of the global pandemic, some experts estimate that

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Speaker 1: one hundred million more people might be added to that number.

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Speaker 1: It's not a time to give up against the global goals.

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Speaker 1: It's a time to redouble our effort. As part of

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Speaker 1: our Setback series, we're examining world hunger, both to get

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Speaker 1: a sense of the magnitude of the challenge we face

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Speaker 1: and because of the new sense of opportunity as we've

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Speaker 1: come together to battle this pandemic. What we really need

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Speaker 1: now is a radical reset at this moment, the commitment

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Speaker 1: globally and nationally to reverse the trend. Abbey Maximin is

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Speaker 1: President and CEO of Oxfam America. There is enough food

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Speaker 1: for all of us, and when we work together, global

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Speaker 1: hunger is solvable. One thing I'd love to understand better

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Speaker 1: is the impact that the pandemic has had on global hunger.

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Speaker 1: I've seen estimates from the UN Food and Agricultural Organization

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Speaker 1: that COVID nineteen might have added something between eighty and

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Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty million people to the total number

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Speaker 1: of undernourished in the world. Are those accurate numbers? And

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Speaker 1: how much did it increase from the baseline before the pandemic. Well,

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Speaker 1: the numbers that you were already quoting are ones we

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Speaker 1: are seeing consistent in terms of the rise of people

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Speaker 1: who are living in hunger, and certainly the number of

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Speaker 1: people facing extreme on the verge of the word that

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Speaker 1: we don't use lightly famine. But there's a confluence of

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Speaker 1: factors COVID, climate conflict, inequality, and the broken food systems

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Speaker 1: that have people have been experiencing and we've seen for

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Speaker 1: years that has now been clearly unveiled for the world

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Speaker 1: to see. Yeah, I mean talk about the actual mechanism

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Speaker 1: around the pandemic. We had Paul Farmer on recently and

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Speaker 1: he pointed out that many countries in Africa have done

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Speaker 1: much better with the pandemic for a variety of reasons,

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Speaker 1: and probably a variety of reasons we don't understand, but

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Speaker 1: it's a cruel irony that they get these indirect effects

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Speaker 1: even if people aren't succumbing to the virus or affected

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Speaker 1: by the virus as much. How is the virus making people,

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Speaker 1: particularly in Africa, which I think includes something like six

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Speaker 1: or seven of the country's most afflicted by hunger, how

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Speaker 1: is it making things towards there? About two thirds of

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Speaker 1: the population across Africa are smallholder farmers. And what COVID

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Speaker 1: has done to local economies, to food systems, and also

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Speaker 1: the issues of conflict going on in the places that

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Speaker 1: have the highest proportion of hunger, there's been this confluence

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Speaker 1: of factors. So the smallholder farmers are really faced with

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Speaker 1: very few choices in terms of how to produce and

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Speaker 1: move their food through a supply chain, if you will.

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Speaker 1: And we've spoken to a number of people, of course,

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Speaker 1: the communities we work with, and there's a woman named

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Speaker 1: Kadidia Diallo, who's a female milk producer in Burkina Fasso,

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Speaker 1: who told us she can't give her children in something

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Speaker 1: to eat in the morning because they're totally dependent on

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Speaker 1: the sale of milk and with the closure of the market,

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Speaker 1: they can't sell the milk anymore, and if we can't

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Speaker 1: sell milk, we don't eat. And those are kind of

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Speaker 1: the anecdotes that are widespread at the moment. You know

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Speaker 1: that notion of what we call the hunger virus and

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Speaker 1: oxfam were produced or report last year that COVID is

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Speaker 1: unveiling or unleashing a number of shadow pandemics, if you will,

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Speaker 1: hunger among them. I want us to talk a little

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Speaker 1: more about that where question. I'm looking at that report

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Speaker 1: right now and I was just going to read the

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Speaker 1: top ten countries for millions of people facing crisis level hunger. Now,

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Speaker 1: this report was done in July twenty twenty, so it

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Speaker 1: may have been updated since then, but at the time,

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Speaker 1: the worst afflicted countries were Yamen, the Democratic Republic of Congo,

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Speaker 1: Democratic and Republic being dubious parts of the name, Afghanistan, Venezuela,

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Speaker 1: West Africa, sa Hale, Ethiopia, South Sudan, Syria, Sudan, and Haiti.

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Speaker 1: Is that still pretty much the list? I think that's

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Speaker 1: pretty much consistent today because you can see the overlay

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Speaker 1: with those those factors that I talked about, conflict being

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Speaker 1: amongst them, but then the climatic changes and implications and

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Speaker 1: that becomes this toxic situation, if you will, around people's

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Speaker 1: ability to access and how markets work and how those

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Speaker 1: at the bottom are really left behind. Another impact of

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Speaker 1: the crisis is that aid organizations like Oxfam, which is

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Speaker 1: the pre eminent one in many parts of the world,

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Speaker 1: have had to cut back themselves and have found it

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Speaker 1: harder to operate in some of those countries. I know

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Speaker 1: Oxfam at in the early days the pandemic had to

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Speaker 1: close number of offices, lay off a number of people.

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Speaker 1: In the UK, it's everyone knows Oxfam for the shops

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Speaker 1: it has everywhere, which are like second hand shops that

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Speaker 1: help to fund Oxfam relief activities and a lot of those,

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Speaker 1: of course we're not open. How has that affected the

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Speaker 1: ability to provide relief in those places. Well, it's certainly challenging.

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Speaker 1: I mean, as we all know, resources are key. You know,

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Speaker 1: the demand is greater than ever and then you know

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Speaker 1: there's always a challenge when you're in nonprofits. But certainly

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Speaker 1: what you just described when the shops closed, that has

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Speaker 1: a big impact on our ongoing operations when there's a

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Speaker 1: demand that is increasing. But I also Jacob would like

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Speaker 1: to talk about the meadow or more macro level too.

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Speaker 1: Um I love talking about OXFAM and when you look

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Speaker 1: back at what was happening last year when we wrote

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Speaker 1: the Hunger Virus Report, the ten largest food and beverage

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Speaker 1: companies in the world had eighteen billion dollars of profit

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Speaker 1: that was distributed across shareholders. And those are ones who

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Speaker 1: rely on global value chains at a time when the

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Speaker 1: global humanitarian response needs was barely funded at under twenty

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Speaker 1: percent at the time of eight billion of a total

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Speaker 1: need or seven point eight billion. Let me question a

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Speaker 1: little further whether or how those two things are related,

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Speaker 1: because when I look at the countries on your top

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Speaker 1: ten list, the majority of them have been suffering from

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Speaker 1: civil war or civil conflict or at least political breakdown.

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Speaker 1: And much of the challenge is getting help to people,

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Speaker 1: not the willingness of the outside world to provide help

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Speaker 1: to a place like Yemen or Syria. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: is the question of how much money food companies are

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Speaker 1: making really germane to the problem. There's no reason in

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Speaker 1: the twenty first century that people should be going hungry,

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Speaker 1: and there's a question of human act and inaction and

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Speaker 1: policy choices that are made. Their German relationship of looking

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Speaker 1: at the entire ecosystem, where we're looking at multilateralism and

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Speaker 1: choices that are made to be able to increase resourcing

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Speaker 1: at a time to prevent the loss of life and

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Speaker 1: livelihoods while the corporations can be profiting significantly. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a whole range of interconnections between what's happening and

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Speaker 1: unequal tax systems and where the resources are flowing at

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Speaker 1: a time when they could be flowing in other directions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when you look at the UN sustainability goals, one of

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Speaker 1: the core ones was eradicating hunger and famine worldwide. By

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty, the first part of the millennium, we saw

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Speaker 1: tremendous progress against extreme poverty, including hunger. And a question

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Speaker 1: running through this mini series we're doing on the pandemic

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Speaker 1: setback is how temporary is the setback or is this

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Speaker 1: setback temporary? That is, are we going to lose a

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Speaker 1: year or a couple of years and then get back

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Speaker 1: on the positive trajectory we were on, or is this

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Speaker 1: something more dire that's going to reverse the progress we

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Speaker 1: were seeing. What do you think? Well, I think it

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Speaker 1: will depend on the ability of wealthy governments to make

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Speaker 1: real commitments to look at the debt some of the

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Speaker 1: low income countries are forced to carry, and so that

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Speaker 1: the right investments can be made at country level, for

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Speaker 1: investing in food security and food systems, in livelihoods, in

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Speaker 1: public health. We've seen a whole disproportionate level of debt

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Speaker 1: repayment that could have covered entire social protection mechanisms in

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Speaker 1: certain countries. Is what we really need now is a

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Speaker 1: radical reset at this moment, the commitment globally and nationally

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Speaker 1: to reverse the trend. Let's talk about solutions a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in what some of the most effective strategies

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Speaker 1: are for OXFAM right now. Solvable listeners have heard a

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Speaker 1: couple of times from big advocates of cash transfers who

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Speaker 1: argue that we've figured out what works in aid. Basically,

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Speaker 1: it's giving people money. It's not giving people food or

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Speaker 1: other are trying to help necessarily more specific ways. That's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily Oxfam's approach. I wonder what you think is

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Speaker 1: working well. That is a component of it. There's not

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Speaker 1: a single approach. I think it's a suite of approaches together.

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Speaker 1: So we're very supportive of cash transfers and local solutions

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Speaker 1: and safety nets be at food. There are appropriate times

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Speaker 1: when food delivery might be the right thing, promoting agriculture

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Speaker 1: development and smallholder farmers, giving farmers tools and seeds that

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Speaker 1: are appropriate and adaptive to climatic conditions. And we also

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Speaker 1: work and support what we call female food heroes, women

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Speaker 1: who can be productive both in their communities but raise

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Speaker 1: their voices to help influence policy and production practices. And

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Speaker 1: big social protection programs that we've seen very successful in

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Speaker 1: places like Ethiopia where there have been as we know,

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Speaker 1: chronic food and security back from the nineteen eighty four

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Speaker 1: famine to early two thousands. We're putting in place a

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Speaker 1: productive safety net program that works with multilateral governments, the

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Speaker 1: local national government and NGOs including Oxfam protect the lives

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Speaker 1: and livelihoods of eight million chronically food and secure people

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Speaker 1: in the country. So there's a combination of events or

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Speaker 1: approaches that can really make a difference. I've seen you

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Speaker 1: say that hunger is about power, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of younger people feel that aid organizations

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Speaker 1: and aid institutions in many ways reflected even as they're

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Speaker 1: trying to address it. That you have rich countries who

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Speaker 1: you know, often go in with a colonial mentality or

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Speaker 1: a savior mentality and are treating the recipients in a

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Speaker 1: patronizing way, and they would like to see much more

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Speaker 1: of a power balance in the way aid is distributed,

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Speaker 1: in the way these organizations work. How has OXFAM been

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Speaker 1: affected by that kind of conversation. Well, it's an important

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Speaker 1: one and it's one where Oxham has been committed to

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Speaker 1: real change for many years. Back in twenty fifteen there

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Speaker 1: was a World Humanitarian Summit where we were championing and

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Speaker 1: we continue to with others what we like to call

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Speaker 1: local humanitarian leadership. We know who are the frontline responders.

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Speaker 1: Invariably it is those living locally in communities, and so

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Speaker 1: we take a partner led approach. Just over the course

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Speaker 1: of COVID, we've worked with over seven hundred partners globally

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Speaker 1: across almost seventy countries in terms of supporting locally led response.

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Speaker 1: So we look at the local leadership and how do

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Speaker 1: we support local organizations to access the resources they need

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Speaker 1: and be able to deliver, but ensure global connections to

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Speaker 1: make sure that lessons and resourcing can help support the

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Speaker 1: local action. And that's relevant here in the United States too.

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Speaker 1: We work the Deep South and Puerto Rico in Appalachia

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Speaker 1: as well to support activities as well as we do

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Speaker 1: around the world. Abby, I wonder why hunger is You're

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Speaker 1: solvable at a personal level, what led you to devote

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Speaker 1: your life to this huge challenge? But this issue in particular,

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Speaker 1: well this issue, you know, I know my own personal

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Speaker 1: I would say reckoning or awareness was the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: four Ethiopian famine. I was just about to finish high

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Speaker 1: school at the time, but the images that came through

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Speaker 1: in the global attention around this really struck me and

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Speaker 1: thinking how can this be? And you know, that was

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Speaker 1: a time where I think it was galvanizing for the

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Speaker 1: world to understand what was really happening and the full

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Speaker 1: gravity of that. I went on to work in Southern

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Speaker 1: Africa and then in the Horn of Africa, including living

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Speaker 1: and working in Ethiopia for eight years, but spending decades

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Speaker 1: working working there, and as we look at what the

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Speaker 1: issues of inequality and poverty and the issue of hunger,

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Speaker 1: I've seen when there's political will, collective action, local empowerment,

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Speaker 1: women's voices at the table, that real change can happen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that whole history you point to of the

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Speaker 1: international crisis and response, which you first saw around the

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Speaker 1: Ethiopian famine, but even before that goes to the back

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Speaker 1: to the Bangladesh famine and the Nigerian civil war and

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Speaker 1: Biafra in the late sixties. Is a very frustrating model

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Speaker 1: because the pattern going back to those crises is the

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Speaker 1: world gets notices, the world is horrified, the world provides

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Speaker 1: a lot of aid, and then it doesn't really the

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Speaker 1: aid doesn't really A lot of it doesn't really get

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Speaker 1: there either be gets obstructed by politics and conflict or

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Speaker 1: because of inefficiencies and distribute hian or you know, there's

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Speaker 1: some aid that gets through, but it doesn't it doesn't

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Speaker 1: fundamentally alter the situation. What have we learned since you

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Speaker 1: started paying attention to the issue thirty five years ago?

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Speaker 1: Have we gotten better at providing aid and relief and

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Speaker 1: in crisis and in crisis prevention? Well, I truly believe so.

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Speaker 1: And as I look at the genesis or founding of

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Speaker 1: OXFAM in the United States was during the Bangladesh and

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Speaker 1: Cambodia civil wars and the hunger issues there, and so

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Speaker 1: part of it is not just moving food but understanding

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Speaker 1: the complexity of the issues influencing you know, geopolitical and

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Speaker 1: bilateral engagement by countries like the United States, which can

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Speaker 1: have a big impact on what happens in other places.

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Speaker 1: So we've seen lots of learnings. I think of how

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Speaker 1: do you we mobilize action in places like Ethiopia where

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Speaker 1: there have been some real learnings over decades of looking

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Speaker 1: at chronic vulnerability and food insecurity, and how do you

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Speaker 1: respond with a joint government, US, World Bank, multilateral and

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Speaker 1: NGEO response to look at social protection not just through

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Speaker 1: food but through cash and looking at hungry periods, but

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Speaker 1: then overlaying it with the issues of understanding the impact

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Speaker 1: of climate change. So those are big climate policy related

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Speaker 1: commitments that can need to be considered as well with

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Speaker 1: collective action and political will you see when you can

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Speaker 1: prevent and even reverse the trajectory of some of these issues.

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Speaker 1: What are the most important things that listeners can do

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Speaker 1: to reduce the worsening of global hunger because of the pandemic. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you for bringing attention to this issue. I would

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Speaker 1: say that despite the setbacks we're seeing, it's not a

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Speaker 1: time to give up against the global goals. It's a

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Speaker 1: time to redouble our effort. So what can people do

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Speaker 1: donate to address hunger locally or globally either. I know

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Speaker 1: people have been really stepping up to support their local

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Speaker 1: food banks and charities. That remains an important component of

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Speaker 1: the effort, not the only thing. Supporting local farmers and

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Speaker 1: food systems, and people in the United States can make

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Speaker 1: choices of being much more conscious of knowing where their

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Speaker 1: food comes from because of the supply chain, if you know,

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Speaker 1: getting cheap food in the United States often starts somewhere

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Speaker 1: else and kind of end the extreme asymmetry between small

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Speaker 1: scale producers and big food companies and really encourage people

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Speaker 1: to learn more and be an advocate on the issue

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Speaker 1: of hunger with family and friends, and get involved politically

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Speaker 1: and reach out to their representatives to let them know

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Speaker 1: they care about it. Is there anything you've read recently,

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Speaker 1: either a book or an article or a film or

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Speaker 1: TV show that has brought home and would bring home

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Speaker 1: for listeners the dimensions of the problem and the way

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Speaker 1: you're talking about it. I'd say Roger Thureau the last

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Speaker 1: Hunger season, and he has a TED talk and other

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Speaker 1: things that helps unpack the question for people. Michael Pollen

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Speaker 1: in Defense of Food that helps look at the bigger

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Speaker 1: issues in the industrialization of food. Movies goosh like Was

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Speaker 1: It The Boy Who Harness the Wind? It's a book

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Speaker 1: and a movie that looks at a water related situation

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Speaker 1: in Malawi during a food crisis that also brings to

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Speaker 1: life some of these issues. Those are some things to

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Speaker 1: come to mind. Abbey, thanks for joining us today. Thanks Jacob,

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Speaker 1: good to be with you. Abbey Maximan is the President

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Speaker 1: and CEO of Oxfam America. To learn more about progress

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Speaker 1: in the fight against global hunger and how the pandemic

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Speaker 1: has affected it, as well as other global development goals,

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Speaker 1: check out the links in our show notes and Solvable listeners.

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Speaker 1: We have some exciting news to share it. You might

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Speaker 1: have heard him on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour as

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Speaker 1: a guest contributor or on a number of other podcasts

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Speaker 1: Inside and Outside the World of Public Radio. Host Ronald

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Speaker 1: Young Junior is joining our team. I'm thirty seven. I'd

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Speaker 1: love to get married and have kids within the next

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Speaker 1: three years by the time I'm forty. Tell me what

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Speaker 1: the world looks like for them if we continue on

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Speaker 1: the path that we're on. More from Ronald coming soon.

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Speaker 1: Solvable Senior Producer is Jocelyn Frank. Research in booking by

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Speaker 1: Lisa Dunn. Catherine Girardo is our managing producer, and our

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Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia Loebell. Special thanks to Sasha Matthias

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Speaker 1: and Sophie mckibbon. Solvable is a production of Pushkin Industries.

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Speaker 1: If you like the show, please remember to share, rate,

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Speaker 1: and review. It really helps us get the word out.

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Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin podcasts wherever you listen, including on

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app and Apple podcast. I'm Jacob Weisberg.