WEBVTT - Ep. 5: Shane Mahoney 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:08.039 Hey, everybody, welcome episode number five of the Honey Collective. 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:13.200 I'm been O'Brien. I'm joined today by a unique individual 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.840 to say in the least, and that's Shane Mahoney. Shane 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.959 is the president CEO of of an organization called Conservation Visions. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:26.040 You may have heard him speaking in the public venue 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:30.240 about conservation, about his efforts, all the things he's done 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.559 in his life. Shane is a native of Newfoundland, but 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.000 he's also a scientist. He's a wildlife manager. He's a 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.920 policy innovator, he's a strategist. He's a filmmaker. He's a writer, 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.080 he's a narrator. He's pretty much the most interesting man 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:49.720 in conservation, both by his awesome beard and hat and 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:53.360 the way he speaks, the way he rates, and how 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:57.480 he comes across as a hunter. I wanted to catch 0:00:57.520 --> 0:00:59.480 up with Shane about a lot of things, but mostly 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:04.000 about his knowledge of history and how he sees the 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.440 hunting world right now, and I believe it was one 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.560 of the more interesting and passionate conversations I've had in 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.479 some times. So I'm happy to share that with you, 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:32.479 and without further ado, Mr Shane Mahoney enjoyed Shane. How's 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:36.800 it going. It's going really well. Um. I'm excited to 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:41.120 have this exchange his ideas and conversation with you, so 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.360 it'll be another chance to talk about something we both 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.480 feel really passionate about, which is the conservation of wildlife 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:51.080 and our outdoor traditions. So very happy to be here 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:53.640 with you. Absolutely well, thanks for thanks for jumping on 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:55.480 with me. I think before we get into it, we 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.480 should address your you told me you have a shiner. Currently. 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:02.160 There was a little bit of an incident the other day. Yes, well, 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.960 I was doing some tree limbing on the weekend, taking 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.400 advantage of the fact that here in Newfoundland this winter 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.080 we don't have nearly as much snow as usual, and 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.320 I was up on a high ladder and this particularly 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.239 large branch of some mature maple trees I have on 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.360 my property decided to jump and smacked me in the 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:28.240 face and knocked me just instantly off the ladder, onto 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.360 the onto the ground with roaring chains on my hand. 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.480 But fortunately the worst of things did not happen, and 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.720 I just ended up with a fairly significant cut. And 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:46.600 now I'm sporting a lovely looking a bizarre I which 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.400 wouldn't normally be a complication, except that I'm doing some 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.760 filming in the next couple of days, so we're trying 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:57.400 to figure out if if that can work, and if not, 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.240 we'll just have to postpone and wait for my my 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:06.079 eye to go back to its normal color. Yeah, I'm 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.440 working on a cold myself, if anybody can hear that. 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.800 So we're both we're both fifty, but we'll make this 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:16.080 happen nonetheless. So I wanted to just talk to you 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.320 about you know, I've probably got many hours of conversation, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.320 like we've had a little bit in the past, about 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.959 conservation and your philosophies and the things that you care 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:28.919 about and are working on currently. But I realized I 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.000 don't really know much about your upbringing or um, you know, 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.240 really your hunting history. So I wanted to just kind 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.480 of start by, um getting a little bit of your background, 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.560 you know, growing up and your first introduction to hunting 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.800 and conservation and and really the the beginnings of of 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:51.320 of your passions. Well, I think the most important and 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:56.600 influential element in my thinking and in my life was 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:01.560 that I was raised, born and raised obviously in the 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:06.800 Audit of Newfoundland and lived in my early childhood period 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:13.400 and into my adolescence in very rural circumstances, in an 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:21.120 incredible society, and in an incredible place where the physical attributes, 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:27.479 the sea and the land itself, very rugged place sort 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.839 of imparts a sense of identity and a sense of 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.800 awareness of the physical and biological world that is impossible 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.560 to miss. And I grew up in a culture where 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.520 there weren't any policemen. There weren't any hospitals, there weren't 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:49.680 any lawyers, there weren't any insurance companies. There weren't any 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.880 of those kinds of things, fire departments, or things of 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:57.599 that nature. They were really communities that relied absolutely fundamentally 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.800 upon themselves in one another. We are the oldest non 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.080 native culture in North America. All the people don't realize that, 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:10.359 but the firm cultural identity of a single place, no 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:13.000 other place, but no full ang goes back so far 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:17.840 as to have that, and we have, over a period 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:22.840 of five hundred years approximately, um we developed a very 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:27.039 close association with the natural world. The fishing of fish, 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:31.599 the whaling of whales, the ceiling of seals, um the 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.000 hunting of wild creatures, the growing of our own food, 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:39.320 and domestic lives, doctor so on. This became just the 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.159 natural order. It was the natural rhythm of things. And 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:48.040 at the same time that world gave all of us 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:54.600 as children, completely unfettered lives. Everyone in the community above 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.080 a certain age who was male was known as uncle 0:05:57.880 --> 0:05:59.840 so and so. And I don't mean that it's some 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.880 kind of folk Taylor's way. That is absolutely true. Everybody 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.120 who was of a certain ages of women was ant. 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.440 We went in and out of one another's homes. We 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:12.880 we slept over in lots of cases, as though we 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:17.000 were parts of families. Children that got into trouble were 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.280 chastised by anyone in the community, but they were also 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.440 looked after by everyone in the community. So I also 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:29.200 came to appreciate over time the kind of values and 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.920 the kind of cultural identity that comes with people who 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.839 live close to the natural world. And of course this 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:40.080 has been maintained and as exemplified in a sort of 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.640 very crystalline way with the the new play that has 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.520 made such a hit on Broadway and elsewhere now around 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.440 the world called Come from Away, which talks about how 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:55.800 Newfoundlanders welcomed sevent of all the Transatlantic travelers, most of 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:01.040 whom were Americans who were coming back to North America 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:06.359 on that fateful day of nine eleven. And so I 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:11.200 came to a very early appreciation of this relationship between 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:18.280 human cultures and traditions, the harvesting of wild creatures, and 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:23.680 are absolute total dependence on the natural world as a concrete, 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:29.920 inseparable kind of idea. Um. And of course all of 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.920 this takes place organically, and a child and a human 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.560 being as they mature, but there's absolutely no question that 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:40.000 this is the genesis of it. More importantly even than that, 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:47.400 perhaps is the fact that because of this childhood, animals 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:53.240 and nature became we're not only incredibly accessible to me 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:57.000 and to all of my friends, siblings and so on, 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:03.400 but it was it was entirely possible for us to 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:09.000 enjoy it every day without fear. I mean we we 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.520 we We lived in a society where everyone knew one another, 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.120 and where no one was concerned if children disappeared for 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.520 long hours or played at the end of wars, or 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.480 when trouting by themselves, as I so often did, even 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.240 as a very small boy of five and six years 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.800 of age and even earlier. And also, of course, there 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:35.400 were the domestic animals the horses and the sheep and 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.480 the hens and so on that that people kept, and 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:42.800 so you always had these kinds of companions around you. 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:49.280 And then if your inclination was stronger than some, which 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:54.079 there's always variation, then of course that environment set it free. 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.679 And I came. My life with animals began as a 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:03.880 very very small boy. And while hunting has had an 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:09.240 impact on me, animals have shaped me. And so I 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:13.000 don't see hunting as the ultimate driving force in my 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:18.440 association with animals. I see animals as the driving force 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:23.080 of my engagement with wildlife and with animals, and I 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:27.000 see hunting as something that is a part of that 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:34.520 um and which makes it entirely possible for me to 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:40.400 say that I hunt and I love animals deeply, without 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.920 absolutely any sense of contradiction or any sense of fear 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.760 that I would not be able to defend that in 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:52.520 any circumstance or any debate anywhere in the world. And 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:57.199 it extended to wild creatures as well as domestic creatures. 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.400 I love the ponies, I love the chickens, I love 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:08.600 the sheep. I I and I've never lost fascination with animals, 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:14.199 whether they are domesticated animals or whether they are wild creatures. 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:22.160 And I guess the ultimate, the ultimate expression of that 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:27.880 journey then is that I really and this offends some people, 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:32.280 of course, but I really don't see very much difference 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:39.880 between so called us and then. And this opens up 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.920 a lot of philosophical discussions, of course, and sometimes makes 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.680 hunters feel some hunters not at all, but some hunters 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:49.839 feel a bit uneasy. But for me, as a hunter, 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.400 you have to accept that truth can still be able 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:59.880 to do it absolutely absolutely well. I mean, there's a 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:04.080 lot there um to unpack, but especially but but what 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.640 strikes me is just in your upbringing. Um, there's a 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.880 lot of aspects that we're missing in the modern world. 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.760 We're missing in the urban world and even the suburban world. 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.240 Your connection to the people around you, A deep sense 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.960 of trust that that you had there and that that 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:24.120 will allow you to probably explore more than maybe you 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:25.760 would have if you didn't have a sense of trust 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.400 in your community, uh, and things like that. So I 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:30.960 think that you know your passion for animals in the 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:32.880 in the connection you feel to them. I'm sure it 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.080 was just driven closer by the environment that you you 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.320 grew up. And I find that to be be something 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.800 in the modern world that we we lack. And um, 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.040 I think more folks could could take heed to the 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.840 way you grew up and the changes that we've seen 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.800 in the last few decades. Well, I think that is true, 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.240 and of course it's a it's part of the great 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:03.320 conundrum for conservation in in many ways, because we know 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:08.079 that there is increasing urbanization occurring worldwide. I mean there 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:12.240 is a there is a continuous and strengthening move to 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.600 cities of course by people in cultures all around the world, 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.320 and this is having a lot of effects in the 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.760 sense that it is separating a lot of people from 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:26.280 the natural world more and more. But at the same time, 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.000 it is also freeing up considerable landscapes that at one 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.600 time were occupied by people that are now being reclaimed 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.280 by wildlife at many parts of the world, um, which 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.160 a lot of people don't think about. But this is 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.520 one of the outcomes of urbanization which is a benefit 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:46.080 to conservation in the sense that it's more spaceful for 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:51.720 wildlife to thrive and exist. Um. The flip side of it, 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.079 of course, is this problem of association from the natural world, 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.120 and we are going to have to find ways to 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:03.679 bring people to a concern for animals and wildlife regardless 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:08.560 of where they live. Fortunately, because our relationship with animals 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.480 is such an evolutionary thing. I mean, it's so deeply 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.600 bettered in us. But the one thing that city people, 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.199 if we could call people city people versus rural people, 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:23.240 do not differ on is their fascination with animals and 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:27.719 with wildlife. Um. That's why the television shows like the 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:32.559 BBC's Planet Earth, which to a large extent simply featured 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.600 the biological diversity of the planet, attracts the largest television 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:41.440 audience of all time. UM. So we're not helpless in 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.720 this debate, as some of the rhetoric might suggest. And 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.520 because children like technology just like we did as children, 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.880 just like every human child has since we broke the 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:57.600 first stone. Um, you know this is uh, this, this 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:03.560 doesn't need that. We can define a significant conservation ethic 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:08.560 within people in those circumstances, and we might be reminded, 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.400 as hunters and anglers that it was the urban elites 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.040 of the United States of America, the George Bird Grinnell's 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:20.840 and the Theodore Roosevelt's it was the urban elites of 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:25.320 your country which led the movement for conservation at the 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.080 turn of the twentieth century. Absolutely there was a lot 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.960 of Europeanism in those ideas that who would be a hunter? Right? 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.360 I mean, um, that leads into a great uh, a 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.320 subject that I wanted to cover up. Not I wasn't 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.120 sure we'd get to it today because there's so much 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:43.880 but just uh, the beginning of conservation in this country, um, 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.680 and how you know, eighty years is a long time, 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:51.240 um since we really got into the things like Pittman 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.800 Robertson Acts and some of the more important legislation. UM. 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:56.960 But I believe it was you know, the turn of 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:02.400 the century when Pinochet define what conservation was and started 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.720 to understand this idea that market hunting was going to 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.880 two was ruined us to our wild life into America 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.920 and we needed to have a different set of ideals. 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.240 So talking, I know, you have a lot of knowledge 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.760 about that, and you've been really involved and you know 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.440 in the North American model of wildlife conservation and theorizing 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.920 and talking a lot about how conservation came to be 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:28.320 and then in the pursuing you know, preceding decades why 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:30.760 it needed to to change when it did. So I 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.640 would love you. I As an aside to that, I 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.080 think there's a lot of hunters that do not know 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.240 much about that history, and in our outbit removed from 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:43.400 things like Pittman Robertson UM and and funds they pay 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.640 into because they are generations, removed from the idea that 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.880 it was necessary. So I think it's it's important to 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:55.000 to cover those things well. It is important because in 0:15:55.080 --> 0:16:01.320 the broadest conceptual sense, UM, knowing our history is what 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.360 prepares us for the present and the future. UM. And 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:10.400 also knowing our history is what helps give our nations 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.880 and our people a sense of identity. And one part 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.440 of the history of the United States and of Canada 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:23.720 meant certainly of some other countries, but really significantly in 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:29.360 the United States was the rise of this idea of 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.760 conservation and which was really kind of the forerunner of 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:38.160 the sustainable use movement, etcetera. UM. You know, it's hard 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:43.920 for people today to believe that a hundred and twenty 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:48.800 and indeed a hundred fifty years ago, UM, the ravages 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:54.680 being applied to wildlife and other natural resources such as forests, 0:16:54.760 --> 0:17:00.240 for example, but also river systems so on, were just 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.800 extreme in in the United States. In particular and in 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:08.040 parts of settled Canada, the depletion of wildlife was at 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.880 such a state that, as I have said and reminded 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:17.240 many policy makers, if we had had endangered Species acts, 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.200 you know, at the turn of the twentie century in 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:25.600 the United States Canada, most of the iconic species that 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.920 most readily come to mind too people when you say 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.919 the word wildlife, you know, such as black bear, or 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:39.080 white tailed deer, mule deer, elk, you know, species Canada, geese, 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.680 wood ducks, wild turkeys, and all these kind of iconic species. 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.800 They would have all been on the endangered species list. 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.440 There's absolutely no question of that. Depletions were so extreme 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:56.439 and so geographically extensive and widespread that every one of 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:01.040 them would have been elicted. And yet we live at 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:06.080 a time whereas hunters like to point out, most of 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.320 those iconic species, of course, are ones that are very 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:14.720 safely distanced from anything like an endangered species listing, and 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.840 they are in extraordinary abundance in many cases. So we 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.560 have somebody there are being killed in our highways and 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:26.080 turkeys in our driveways. It goes. So this is an example, 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.600 first of all, all the extraordinary capacity of a country 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:36.560 to move from wildlife crisis to wildlife triumph. And of 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.480 course every country in the world is preoccupied with this 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:44.439 issue today, and yet we have a demonstration of our capacity, 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:48.320 as you know, beings to undertake such rescue missions and 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:54.200 be successful. The second most important comment about that, of course, 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.960 is that the people who responded to the crisis were 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:03.200 people who, in many cases never needed to worry about 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:07.200 their opportunities in life at all, because they were elites, 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.280 they were from wealthy backgrounds, and so on and so forth, 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:15.720 and yet they threw themselves into this fight as nationalists, essentially, 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:20.679 as Americans, as people who believed, as Roosevelt articulated that 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:24.080 if you did not care you could excuse me about 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.960 the natural resources of your country, and if you did 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:32.200 not want to play a part in their management and 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:37.480 custodianship so that future generations could inherit them and share them, 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.080 then you really had no right to call yourself an American. 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.760 This ultimately got translated in the American social political environment 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.880 to the White House because as a result of you know, 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:55.200 an assassination, obviously um Teddy Roosevelt comes to power. He 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:57.680 becomes the President of the United States of American he 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.520 draws into the vortex of power are in the White House, 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:06.880 these ideas and then brings them to the nation and 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.159 to the governors, to the to the political infrastructure of 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.720 the country, and then sets about, you know, doing the 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.480 famous things that people know about him, you know, setting 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.359 up national parks and wilderness areas, while life reserved and 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.000 all of that. And while all of that was important, 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.480 the most important thing that people like pin Show and 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:32.400 Grinnelle and Roosevelt gave and which Roosevelt personified, was he 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:37.199 gave to the American people this idea that conservation of 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:41.600 wildlife and natural resource has mattered. And despite the fact 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.520 that not everybody had been a fan of Teddy Roosevelt's 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.960 when he was in the presidency, and despite the fact 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:52.120 that you know, when he left the presidency obviously eventually, um, 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:56.880 it's a very interesting that no American president since Democrat 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:02.120 or Republican has really done it, has really done much 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.640 to damage the basic kind of infrastructures that Teddy Roosevelt 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:07.919 put in place. Despite the fact that he had so 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:12.679 many critics at the time, that suggests to me that 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:18.359 he embedded something in America. He embedded something in the 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:23.920 American people, and that that makes political leaders think twice 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:29.399 about changing too much the way that the resources of 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.400 your country are managed. And this doesn't mean that every 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:34.880 American citizen knows the history. It doesn't mean that every 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.879 American citizen walks around preaching this. Of course they don't. 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.280 But still there has to be a reason for why 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:46.880 his programs and institutions have been so resilient over a century. Well. 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:50.920 And I think the uniqueness of those ideas is really 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:55.440 codified in the fact that today every American values wild life. 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:57.320 I mean, we we disagree in a lot of ways 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.920 about how that value looks and feels, what it means, 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:04.080 but I think we all, unlike you know, Africa or 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.720 other areas of the world, we all have a value 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.720 determined value for those animals. And I think that's really, 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:15.879 at the end of the day, the legacy of the 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.440 early conservationists. I mean, I think it has to be 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:21.480 that that there's no one in this country that would 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.800 would stand for the wholesale slaughter of the animals like 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:29.000 it was in market hunting times. No, I think that's 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.879 that's absolutely true, and the sensibilities of the nation have 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:33.880 changed in many ways, of course, but I think you're 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:37.840 absolutely right about widlife. And and of course this is 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:42.480 the great this is the great suit of armor that 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:46.160 that conservation wears. Right. I mean, there's there is a citizen, 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:51.359 citizen rebacking these values. It's not just a handful of 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:55.000 professionals in the US Fish and Wirelife Service or geological 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.879 survey of the National Park Service. It's not just a 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:03.520 group of you know, of effective bureaucrats buried within you know, 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:07.200 government offices in Washington. It's not just a Secretary of Interior. 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:12.840 It's not just anything. It really the solid fabric of 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:17.800 this movement lies in the this sort of generalized kind 0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:21.760 of awareness and sensibility that is now part of the 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:25.240 American psyche. And you know, I think this is what 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:30.960 all opportunity for conservation going forward springs from that reservoir 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:36.800 of commitment and hope. Absolutely When then you go to seven, 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:40.800 specifically when Franklin Roosevelt got a bunch of people together, 0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:44.879 two thousand conservations in fact, and they call it the 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:48.720 North American Wildlife Conference, and and that was I think 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:51.720 that is a huge point in the readings I've done 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.760 in the history of of conservation, because they then began 0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:58.760 to put together a way to pay for all these 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:03.679 ideas um, because obviously that you care about wildlife, you 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:05.600 want to take care of them and leave places for 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:09.080 them to roam, and for hunters to want to pursue them. Well, 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.240 you have to have some sort of funding to do that. 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:14.600 So talk about a little bit about you know, the 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:17.600 user pays public benefits model, and a little bit about 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:21.040 what was happening in the late nineteen thirties there around 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:25.600 Franklin Roosevelt and then the passing of the Pittman Robertson Act, 0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:28.480 and then what that meant going forward, because I think 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:34.360 that's often also a lost aspect of the conservation movement. Well, 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:38.280 I think one of the first and most obvious UM 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:45.440 residences and similarities in fact between you know, this time 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:48.959 period of the mid mid in late nineteen thirties and 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:53.240 the original cement period of the turn of the twentieth 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:56.760 century and a little bit before, was that both were 0:24:56.760 --> 0:25:04.720 fueled by crisis um America obviously had you know, suffered 0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:08.520 the incredible effects of this sort of dust bowl era. 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:14.399 The economic challenges were there, and interestingly enough, of course, 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:18.080 a relative of Theodore Roosevelts is in the White House 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:23.440 and does a great many things in the conservation realm, 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:26.560 the conservation Corps, and yes, there was a variety of 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:31.320 pieces of legislation established in that time period. Um. You know, 0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:36.280 the the North American Conference and Wildlife Management Institute were 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:40.200 founded at that time. A number of very influential NGO 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:44.480 groups came to rise at that time, the Wildlife Federation, 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:49.479 just just the cooperative Wildlife Research Unit process. I mean, 0:25:49.800 --> 0:25:53.840 there were many, many, many, really substantial innovative changes that 0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:57.200 took place in that period of crisis in America at 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:04.040 that time under Franklin Roosevelt's Roosevelt's leadership, the the ideas 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:07.399 that there should be a user pay system to some extent, 0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:12.720 and that that kind of in in a sense, oversimplifies 0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:15.359 conservation in America. But the phrase is often used, and 0:26:15.400 --> 0:26:19.199 so it's helpful to discuss it in those terms. You know, 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:25.480 this this need was identified much much, much earlier. George 0:26:25.480 --> 0:26:27.760 Burt Runnell was the first one that I am aware 0:26:27.760 --> 0:26:30.399 of who actually wrote in Forest Stream, which he was 0:26:30.440 --> 0:26:34.600 the editor of for many decades, UM, that it should 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:38.040 be the hunting community of the United States of America 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:42.440 who paid for all wildlife enforcement. Um. This was an 0:26:42.440 --> 0:26:44.879 idea that was thirty forty years ahead of its time, 0:26:45.760 --> 0:26:49.600 but nevertheless, the notion that there needed to be money, 0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:52.560 that the resource had to be managed and protected, that 0:26:52.600 --> 0:26:55.000 the money had to come from somewhere. This was already 0:26:55.080 --> 0:27:00.199 floating in the sort of conservation air. And when end 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:04.840 we finally saw this solidify or codify, who was when 0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:09.560 you know, people decided, okay, let's pass legislation and find 0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:13.040 a way to raise significant amounts of money to help 0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:18.040 support the state agencies fundamentally in your country, which were 0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:24.080 of course constitutionally legally given the responsibility for the public 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:26.159 trust of those resources, in other words, to manage and 0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:31.280 custody of those resources that you know that existed within 0:27:31.320 --> 0:27:36.239 their individual jurisdictions. And so the idea surface that you know, 0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:40.000 a way to do this was to put a federal 0:27:40.080 --> 0:27:43.640 excise tax, you know, on commodities that will be used 0:27:43.640 --> 0:27:46.920