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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome episode number five of the Honey Collective.

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Speaker 1: I'm been O'Brien. I'm joined today by a unique individual

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Speaker 1: to say in the least, and that's Shane Mahoney. Shane

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Speaker 1: is the president CEO of of an organization called Conservation Visions.

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Speaker 1: You may have heard him speaking in the public venue

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Speaker 1: about conservation, about his efforts, all the things he's done

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Speaker 1: in his life. Shane is a native of Newfoundland, but

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Speaker 1: he's also a scientist. He's a wildlife manager. He's a

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Speaker 1: policy innovator, he's a strategist. He's a filmmaker. He's a writer,

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Speaker 1: he's a narrator. He's pretty much the most interesting man

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Speaker 1: in conservation, both by his awesome beard and hat and

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Speaker 1: the way he speaks, the way he rates, and how

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Speaker 1: he comes across as a hunter. I wanted to catch

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Speaker 1: up with Shane about a lot of things, but mostly

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Speaker 1: about his knowledge of history and how he sees the

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Speaker 1: hunting world right now, and I believe it was one

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Speaker 1: of the more interesting and passionate conversations I've had in

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Speaker 1: some times. So I'm happy to share that with you,

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Speaker 1: and without further ado, Mr Shane Mahoney enjoyed Shane. How's

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Speaker 1: it going. It's going really well. Um. I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: have this exchange his ideas and conversation with you, so

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Speaker 1: it'll be another chance to talk about something we both

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Speaker 1: feel really passionate about, which is the conservation of wildlife

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Speaker 1: and our outdoor traditions. So very happy to be here

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Speaker 1: with you. Absolutely well, thanks for thanks for jumping on

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Speaker 1: with me. I think before we get into it, we

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Speaker 1: should address your you told me you have a shiner. Currently.

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Speaker 1: There was a little bit of an incident the other day. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: I was doing some tree limbing on the weekend, taking

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Speaker 1: advantage of the fact that here in Newfoundland this winter

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Speaker 1: we don't have nearly as much snow as usual, and

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Speaker 1: I was up on a high ladder and this particularly

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Speaker 1: large branch of some mature maple trees I have on

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Speaker 1: my property decided to jump and smacked me in the

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Speaker 1: face and knocked me just instantly off the ladder, onto

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Speaker 1: the onto the ground with roaring chains on my hand.

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Speaker 1: But fortunately the worst of things did not happen, and

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Speaker 1: I just ended up with a fairly significant cut. And

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Speaker 1: now I'm sporting a lovely looking a bizarre I which

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Speaker 1: wouldn't normally be a complication, except that I'm doing some

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Speaker 1: filming in the next couple of days, so we're trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out if if that can work, and if not,

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Speaker 1: we'll just have to postpone and wait for my my

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Speaker 1: eye to go back to its normal color. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: working on a cold myself, if anybody can hear that.

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Speaker 1: So we're both we're both fifty, but we'll make this

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Speaker 1: happen nonetheless. So I wanted to just talk to you

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Speaker 1: about you know, I've probably got many hours of conversation,

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Speaker 1: like we've had a little bit in the past, about

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Speaker 1: conservation and your philosophies and the things that you care

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Speaker 1: about and are working on currently. But I realized I

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Speaker 1: don't really know much about your upbringing or um, you know,

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Speaker 1: really your hunting history. So I wanted to just kind

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Speaker 1: of start by, um getting a little bit of your background,

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Speaker 1: you know, growing up and your first introduction to hunting

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Speaker 1: and conservation and and really the the beginnings of of

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Speaker 1: of your passions. Well, I think the most important and

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Speaker 1: influential element in my thinking and in my life was

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Speaker 1: that I was raised, born and raised obviously in the

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Speaker 1: Audit of Newfoundland and lived in my early childhood period

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Speaker 1: and into my adolescence in very rural circumstances, in an

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Speaker 1: incredible society, and in an incredible place where the physical attributes,

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Speaker 1: the sea and the land itself, very rugged place sort

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Speaker 1: of imparts a sense of identity and a sense of

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Speaker 1: awareness of the physical and biological world that is impossible

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Speaker 1: to miss. And I grew up in a culture where

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Speaker 1: there weren't any policemen. There weren't any hospitals, there weren't

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Speaker 1: any lawyers, there weren't any insurance companies. There weren't any

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Speaker 1: of those kinds of things, fire departments, or things of

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Speaker 1: that nature. They were really communities that relied absolutely fundamentally

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Speaker 1: upon themselves in one another. We are the oldest non

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Speaker 1: native culture in North America. All the people don't realize that,

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Speaker 1: but the firm cultural identity of a single place, no

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Speaker 1: other place, but no full ang goes back so far

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Speaker 1: as to have that, and we have, over a period

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Speaker 1: of five hundred years approximately, um we developed a very

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Speaker 1: close association with the natural world. The fishing of fish,

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Speaker 1: the whaling of whales, the ceiling of seals, um the

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Speaker 1: hunting of wild creatures, the growing of our own food,

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Speaker 1: and domestic lives, doctor so on. This became just the

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Speaker 1: natural order. It was the natural rhythm of things. And

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Speaker 1: at the same time that world gave all of us

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Speaker 1: as children, completely unfettered lives. Everyone in the community above

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Speaker 1: a certain age who was male was known as uncle

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Speaker 1: so and so. And I don't mean that it's some

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Speaker 1: kind of folk Taylor's way. That is absolutely true. Everybody

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Speaker 1: who was of a certain ages of women was ant.

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Speaker 1: We went in and out of one another's homes. We

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Speaker 1: we slept over in lots of cases, as though we

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Speaker 1: were parts of families. Children that got into trouble were

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Speaker 1: chastised by anyone in the community, but they were also

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Speaker 1: looked after by everyone in the community. So I also

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Speaker 1: came to appreciate over time the kind of values and

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Speaker 1: the kind of cultural identity that comes with people who

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Speaker 1: live close to the natural world. And of course this

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Speaker 1: has been maintained and as exemplified in a sort of

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Speaker 1: very crystalline way with the the new play that has

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Speaker 1: made such a hit on Broadway and elsewhere now around

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Speaker 1: the world called Come from Away, which talks about how

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Speaker 1: Newfoundlanders welcomed sevent of all the Transatlantic travelers, most of

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Speaker 1: whom were Americans who were coming back to North America

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Speaker 1: on that fateful day of nine eleven. And so I

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Speaker 1: came to a very early appreciation of this relationship between

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Speaker 1: human cultures and traditions, the harvesting of wild creatures, and

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Speaker 1: are absolute total dependence on the natural world as a concrete,

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Speaker 1: inseparable kind of idea. Um. And of course all of

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Speaker 1: this takes place organically, and a child and a human

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Speaker 1: being as they mature, but there's absolutely no question that

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Speaker 1: this is the genesis of it. More importantly even than that,

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Speaker 1: perhaps is the fact that because of this childhood, animals

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Speaker 1: and nature became we're not only incredibly accessible to me

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Speaker 1: and to all of my friends, siblings and so on,

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Speaker 1: but it was it was entirely possible for us to

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Speaker 1: enjoy it every day without fear. I mean we we

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Speaker 1: we We lived in a society where everyone knew one another,

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Speaker 1: and where no one was concerned if children disappeared for

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Speaker 1: long hours or played at the end of wars, or

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Speaker 1: when trouting by themselves, as I so often did, even

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Speaker 1: as a very small boy of five and six years

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Speaker 1: of age and even earlier. And also, of course, there

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Speaker 1: were the domestic animals the horses and the sheep and

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Speaker 1: the hens and so on that that people kept, and

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Speaker 1: so you always had these kinds of companions around you.

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Speaker 1: And then if your inclination was stronger than some, which

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Speaker 1: there's always variation, then of course that environment set it free.

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Speaker 1: And I came. My life with animals began as a

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Speaker 1: very very small boy. And while hunting has had an

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Speaker 1: impact on me, animals have shaped me. And so I

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Speaker 1: don't see hunting as the ultimate driving force in my

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Speaker 1: association with animals. I see animals as the driving force

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Speaker 1: of my engagement with wildlife and with animals, and I

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Speaker 1: see hunting as something that is a part of that

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Speaker 1: um and which makes it entirely possible for me to

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Speaker 1: say that I hunt and I love animals deeply, without

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Speaker 1: absolutely any sense of contradiction or any sense of fear

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Speaker 1: that I would not be able to defend that in

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Speaker 1: any circumstance or any debate anywhere in the world. And

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Speaker 1: it extended to wild creatures as well as domestic creatures.

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Speaker 1: I love the ponies, I love the chickens, I love

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Speaker 1: the sheep. I I and I've never lost fascination with animals,

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Speaker 1: whether they are domesticated animals or whether they are wild creatures.

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Speaker 1: And I guess the ultimate, the ultimate expression of that

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Speaker 1: journey then is that I really and this offends some people,

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Speaker 1: of course, but I really don't see very much difference

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Speaker 1: between so called us and then. And this opens up

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Speaker 1: a lot of philosophical discussions, of course, and sometimes makes

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Speaker 1: hunters feel some hunters not at all, but some hunters

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Speaker 1: feel a bit uneasy. But for me, as a hunter,

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Speaker 1: you have to accept that truth can still be able

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Speaker 1: to do it absolutely absolutely well. I mean, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot there um to unpack, but especially but but what

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Speaker 1: strikes me is just in your upbringing. Um, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of aspects that we're missing in the modern world.

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Speaker 1: We're missing in the urban world and even the suburban world.

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Speaker 1: Your connection to the people around you, A deep sense

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Speaker 1: of trust that that you had there and that that

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Speaker 1: will allow you to probably explore more than maybe you

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Speaker 1: would have if you didn't have a sense of trust

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Speaker 1: in your community, uh, and things like that. So I

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Speaker 1: think that you know your passion for animals in the

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Speaker 1: in the connection you feel to them. I'm sure it

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Speaker 1: was just driven closer by the environment that you you

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Speaker 1: grew up. And I find that to be be something

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Speaker 1: in the modern world that we we lack. And um,

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Speaker 1: I think more folks could could take heed to the

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Speaker 1: way you grew up and the changes that we've seen

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Speaker 1: in the last few decades. Well, I think that is true,

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Speaker 1: and of course it's a it's part of the great

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Speaker 1: conundrum for conservation in in many ways, because we know

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Speaker 1: that there is increasing urbanization occurring worldwide. I mean there

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Speaker 1: is a there is a continuous and strengthening move to

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Speaker 1: cities of course by people in cultures all around the world,

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Speaker 1: and this is having a lot of effects in the

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Speaker 1: sense that it is separating a lot of people from

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Speaker 1: the natural world more and more. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: it is also freeing up considerable landscapes that at one

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Speaker 1: time were occupied by people that are now being reclaimed

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Speaker 1: by wildlife at many parts of the world, um, which

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Speaker 1: a lot of people don't think about. But this is

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Speaker 1: one of the outcomes of urbanization which is a benefit

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Speaker 1: to conservation in the sense that it's more spaceful for

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Speaker 1: wildlife to thrive and exist. Um. The flip side of it,

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Speaker 1: of course, is this problem of association from the natural world,

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Speaker 1: and we are going to have to find ways to

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Speaker 1: bring people to a concern for animals and wildlife regardless

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Speaker 1: of where they live. Fortunately, because our relationship with animals

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Speaker 1: is such an evolutionary thing. I mean, it's so deeply

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Speaker 1: bettered in us. But the one thing that city people,

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Speaker 1: if we could call people city people versus rural people,

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Speaker 1: do not differ on is their fascination with animals and

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Speaker 1: with wildlife. Um. That's why the television shows like the

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Speaker 1: BBC's Planet Earth, which to a large extent simply featured

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Speaker 1: the biological diversity of the planet, attracts the largest television

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Speaker 1: audience of all time. UM. So we're not helpless in

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Speaker 1: this debate, as some of the rhetoric might suggest. And

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Speaker 1: because children like technology just like we did as children,

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Speaker 1: just like every human child has since we broke the

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Speaker 1: first stone. Um, you know this is uh, this, this

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Speaker 1: doesn't need that. We can define a significant conservation ethic

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Speaker 1: within people in those circumstances, and we might be reminded,

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Speaker 1: as hunters and anglers that it was the urban elites

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Speaker 1: of the United States of America, the George Bird Grinnell's

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Speaker 1: and the Theodore Roosevelt's it was the urban elites of

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Speaker 1: your country which led the movement for conservation at the

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Speaker 1: turn of the twentieth century. Absolutely there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of Europeanism in those ideas that who would be a hunter? Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, um, that leads into a great uh, a

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Speaker 1: subject that I wanted to cover up. Not I wasn't

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Speaker 1: sure we'd get to it today because there's so much

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Speaker 1: but just uh, the beginning of conservation in this country, um,

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Speaker 1: and how you know, eighty years is a long time,

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Speaker 1: um since we really got into the things like Pittman

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Speaker 1: Robertson Acts and some of the more important legislation. UM.

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Speaker 1: But I believe it was you know, the turn of

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Speaker 1: the century when Pinochet define what conservation was and started

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Speaker 1: to understand this idea that market hunting was going to

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Speaker 1: two was ruined us to our wild life into America

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Speaker 1: and we needed to have a different set of ideals.

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Speaker 1: So talking, I know, you have a lot of knowledge

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Speaker 1: about that, and you've been really involved and you know

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Speaker 1: in the North American model of wildlife conservation and theorizing

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Speaker 1: and talking a lot about how conservation came to be

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Speaker 1: and then in the pursuing you know, preceding decades why

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Speaker 1: it needed to to change when it did. So I

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Speaker 1: would love you. I As an aside to that, I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot of hunters that do not know

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Speaker 1: much about that history, and in our outbit removed from

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Speaker 1: things like Pittman Robertson UM and and funds they pay

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Speaker 1: into because they are generations, removed from the idea that

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Speaker 1: it was necessary. So I think it's it's important to

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Speaker 1: to cover those things well. It is important because in

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Speaker 1: the broadest conceptual sense, UM, knowing our history is what

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Speaker 1: prepares us for the present and the future. UM. And

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Speaker 1: also knowing our history is what helps give our nations

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Speaker 1: and our people a sense of identity. And one part

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Speaker 1: of the history of the United States and of Canada

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Speaker 1: meant certainly of some other countries, but really significantly in

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Speaker 1: the United States was the rise of this idea of

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Speaker 1: conservation and which was really kind of the forerunner of

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Speaker 1: the sustainable use movement, etcetera. UM. You know, it's hard

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Speaker 1: for people today to believe that a hundred and twenty

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Speaker 1: and indeed a hundred fifty years ago, UM, the ravages

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Speaker 1: being applied to wildlife and other natural resources such as forests,

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Speaker 1: for example, but also river systems so on, were just

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Speaker 1: extreme in in the United States. In particular and in

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Speaker 1: parts of settled Canada, the depletion of wildlife was at

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Speaker 1: such a state that, as I have said and reminded

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Speaker 1: many policy makers, if we had had endangered Species acts,

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Speaker 1: you know, at the turn of the twentie century in

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Speaker 1: the United States Canada, most of the iconic species that

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Speaker 1: most readily come to mind too people when you say

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Speaker 1: the word wildlife, you know, such as black bear, or

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Speaker 1: white tailed deer, mule deer, elk, you know, species Canada, geese,

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Speaker 1: wood ducks, wild turkeys, and all these kind of iconic species.

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Speaker 1: They would have all been on the endangered species list.

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Speaker 1: There's absolutely no question of that. Depletions were so extreme

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Speaker 1: and so geographically extensive and widespread that every one of

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Speaker 1: them would have been elicted. And yet we live at

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Speaker 1: a time whereas hunters like to point out, most of

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Speaker 1: those iconic species, of course, are ones that are very

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Speaker 1: safely distanced from anything like an endangered species listing, and

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Speaker 1: they are in extraordinary abundance in many cases. So we

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Speaker 1: have somebody there are being killed in our highways and

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Speaker 1: turkeys in our driveways. It goes. So this is an example,

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Speaker 1: first of all, all the extraordinary capacity of a country

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Speaker 1: to move from wildlife crisis to wildlife triumph. And of

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Speaker 1: course every country in the world is preoccupied with this

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Speaker 1: issue today, and yet we have a demonstration of our capacity,

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Speaker 1: as you know, beings to undertake such rescue missions and

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Speaker 1: be successful. The second most important comment about that, of course,

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Speaker 1: is that the people who responded to the crisis were

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Speaker 1: people who, in many cases never needed to worry about

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Speaker 1: their opportunities in life at all, because they were elites,

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Speaker 1: they were from wealthy backgrounds, and so on and so forth,

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Speaker 1: and yet they threw themselves into this fight as nationalists, essentially,

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Speaker 1: as Americans, as people who believed, as Roosevelt articulated that

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Speaker 1: if you did not care you could excuse me about

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Speaker 1: the natural resources of your country, and if you did

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Speaker 1: not want to play a part in their management and

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Speaker 1: custodianship so that future generations could inherit them and share them,

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Speaker 1: then you really had no right to call yourself an American.

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Speaker 1: This ultimately got translated in the American social political environment

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Speaker 1: to the White House because as a result of you know,

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Speaker 1: an assassination, obviously um Teddy Roosevelt comes to power. He

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Speaker 1: becomes the President of the United States of American he

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Speaker 1: draws into the vortex of power are in the White House,

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Speaker 1: these ideas and then brings them to the nation and

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Speaker 1: to the governors, to the to the political infrastructure of

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Speaker 1: the country, and then sets about, you know, doing the

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Speaker 1: famous things that people know about him, you know, setting

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Speaker 1: up national parks and wilderness areas, while life reserved and

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Speaker 1: all of that. And while all of that was important,

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Speaker 1: the most important thing that people like pin Show and

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Speaker 1: Grinnelle and Roosevelt gave and which Roosevelt personified, was he

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Speaker 1: gave to the American people this idea that conservation of

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Speaker 1: wildlife and natural resource has mattered. And despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that not everybody had been a fan of Teddy Roosevelt's

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Speaker 1: when he was in the presidency, and despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that you know, when he left the presidency obviously eventually, um,

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Speaker 1: it's a very interesting that no American president since Democrat

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Speaker 1: or Republican has really done it, has really done much

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Speaker 1: to damage the basic kind of infrastructures that Teddy Roosevelt

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Speaker 1: put in place. Despite the fact that he had so

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Speaker 1: many critics at the time, that suggests to me that

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Speaker 1: he embedded something in America. He embedded something in the

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Speaker 1: American people, and that that makes political leaders think twice

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Speaker 1: about changing too much the way that the resources of

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Speaker 1: your country are managed. And this doesn't mean that every

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Speaker 1: American citizen knows the history. It doesn't mean that every

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Speaker 1: American citizen walks around preaching this. Of course they don't.

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Speaker 1: But still there has to be a reason for why

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Speaker 1: his programs and institutions have been so resilient over a century. Well.

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Speaker 1: And I think the uniqueness of those ideas is really

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Speaker 1: codified in the fact that today every American values wild life.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we we disagree in a lot of ways

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Speaker 1: about how that value looks and feels, what it means,

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Speaker 1: but I think we all, unlike you know, Africa or

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Speaker 1: other areas of the world, we all have a value

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Speaker 1: determined value for those animals. And I think that's really,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the legacy of the

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Speaker 1: early conservationists. I mean, I think it has to be

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Speaker 1: that that there's no one in this country that would

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Speaker 1: would stand for the wholesale slaughter of the animals like

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Speaker 1: it was in market hunting times. No, I think that's

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely true, and the sensibilities of the nation have

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Speaker 1: changed in many ways, of course, but I think you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right about widlife. And and of course this is

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Speaker 1: the great this is the great suit of armor that

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Speaker 1: that conservation wears. Right. I mean, there's there is a citizen,

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Speaker 1: citizen rebacking these values. It's not just a handful of

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Speaker 1: professionals in the US Fish and Wirelife Service or geological

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Speaker 1: survey of the National Park Service. It's not just a

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Speaker 1: group of you know, of effective bureaucrats buried within you know,

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Speaker 1: government offices in Washington. It's not just a Secretary of Interior.

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Speaker 1: It's not just anything. It really the solid fabric of

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Speaker 1: this movement lies in the this sort of generalized kind

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Speaker 1: of awareness and sensibility that is now part of the

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Speaker 1: American psyche. And you know, I think this is what

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Speaker 1: all opportunity for conservation going forward springs from that reservoir

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Speaker 1: of commitment and hope. Absolutely When then you go to seven,

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Speaker 1: specifically when Franklin Roosevelt got a bunch of people together,

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Speaker 1: two thousand conservations in fact, and they call it the

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Speaker 1: North American Wildlife Conference, and and that was I think

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Speaker 1: that is a huge point in the readings I've done

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Speaker 1: in the history of of conservation, because they then began

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Speaker 1: to put together a way to pay for all these

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Speaker 1: ideas um, because obviously that you care about wildlife, you

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Speaker 1: want to take care of them and leave places for

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Speaker 1: them to roam, and for hunters to want to pursue them. Well,

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Speaker 1: you have to have some sort of funding to do that.

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Speaker 1: So talk about a little bit about you know, the

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Speaker 1: user pays public benefits model, and a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what was happening in the late nineteen thirties there around

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Speaker 1: Franklin Roosevelt and then the passing of the Pittman Robertson Act,

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Speaker 1: and then what that meant going forward, because I think

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Speaker 1: that's often also a lost aspect of the conservation movement. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think one of the first and most obvious UM

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Speaker 1: residences and similarities in fact between you know, this time

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Speaker 1: period of the mid mid in late nineteen thirties and

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Speaker 1: the original cement period of the turn of the twentieth

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Speaker 1: century and a little bit before, was that both were

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Speaker 1: fueled by crisis um America obviously had you know, suffered

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Speaker 1: the incredible effects of this sort of dust bowl era.

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Speaker 1: The economic challenges were there, and interestingly enough, of course,

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Speaker 1: a relative of Theodore Roosevelts is in the White House

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Speaker 1: and does a great many things in the conservation realm,

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Speaker 1: the conservation Corps, and yes, there was a variety of

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Speaker 1: pieces of legislation established in that time period. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: the the North American Conference and Wildlife Management Institute were

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Speaker 1: founded at that time. A number of very influential NGO

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Speaker 1: groups came to rise at that time, the Wildlife Federation,

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Speaker 1: just just the cooperative Wildlife Research Unit process. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there were many, many, many, really substantial innovative changes that

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Speaker 1: took place in that period of crisis in America at

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Speaker 1: that time under Franklin Roosevelt's Roosevelt's leadership, the the ideas

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Speaker 1: that there should be a user pay system to some extent,

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Speaker 1: and that that kind of in in a sense, oversimplifies

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Speaker 1: conservation in America. But the phrase is often used, and

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Speaker 1: so it's helpful to discuss it in those terms. You know,

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Speaker 1: this this need was identified much much, much earlier. George

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Speaker 1: Burt Runnell was the first one that I am aware

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Speaker 1: of who actually wrote in Forest Stream, which he was

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Speaker 1: the editor of for many decades, UM, that it should

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Speaker 1: be the hunting community of the United States of America

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Speaker 1: who paid for all wildlife enforcement. Um. This was an

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Speaker 1: idea that was thirty forty years ahead of its time,

387
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Speaker 1: but nevertheless, the notion that there needed to be money,

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Speaker 1: that the resource had to be managed and protected, that

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Speaker 1: the money had to come from somewhere. This was already

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Speaker 1: floating in the sort of conservation air. And when end

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Speaker 1: we finally saw this solidify or codify, who was when

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Speaker 1: you know, people decided, okay, let's pass legislation and find

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Speaker 1: a way to raise significant amounts of money to help

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Speaker 1: support the state agencies fundamentally in your country, which were

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Speaker 1: of course constitutionally legally given the responsibility for the public

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00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: trust of those resources, in other words, to manage and

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Speaker 1: custody of those resources that you know that existed within

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Speaker 1: their individual jurisdictions. And so the idea surface that you know,

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Speaker 1: a way to do this was to put a federal

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Speaker 1: excise tax, you know, on commodities that will be used

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Speaker 1: by people who were involved in the outdoors, principally people

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Speaker 1: who hunted um and so rifles and ammunition and things

403
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Speaker 1: of this nature, and that we could place a tax

404
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: there that would eventually be would be redistributed back to

405
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Speaker 1: the states based on the formula of land areas and population, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Etcetera um, and that those moneys would then be given

407
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Speaker 1: directly to the state agencies to manage the state wildlife resources.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you know it. First of all, there were

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Speaker 1: more than hunters involved in that process, because obviously anyone

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Speaker 1: who practice shooting, for example, and the target practiced skate

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Speaker 1: shooting and trap shooting its own, and so forth, anyone

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Speaker 1: who actually purchased the firearms and ammunition were also contributing

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Speaker 1: to that fund and therefore also contributing to the state

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Speaker 1: agencies capacities to manage wildlife, whether they were hunters or not.

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Speaker 1: So there was always a more diverse community helping to

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Speaker 1: fund the state agency than just hunters. But over the

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Speaker 1: intervening time period between nine seven and the present day,

418
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Speaker 1: you know the Prisment Roberts and Act and the moneys

419
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Speaker 1: that have come from it, I mean it literally had

420
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Speaker 1: has raised billions above billions of dollars every placeable amounts

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Speaker 1: of money that had been diverted to the management of

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Speaker 1: wildlife in your country. And even to this day, of course,

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Speaker 1: the dollars spent by hunters and also now because of

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Speaker 1: subsequent legislation, the money spent by anglers people who fish

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Speaker 1: are a major component, a majority proportion of the moneys

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Speaker 1: that the state agencies have to operate with. So it's

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Speaker 1: a it was a seminal piece of legislation, bord of

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Speaker 1: ideas that had been launched thirty to forty years earlier,

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00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: finally enacted and passed, and you know, has just made

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Speaker 1: an absolutely unbelievable difference to the conservation and management of

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Speaker 1: wildlife in your country. And you are the only country

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Speaker 1: in the world that I'm aware of who has something

433
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: of this specific nature. And it is not by any

434
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: coincidence in my view, that the the States of America

435
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: also has the most mature, the most complex, the most

436
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: innovative conservation UH institutions and system in the world. Yeah, yeah, no,

437
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: And I think you know, I think uh in my

438
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: research and readings, it's about six of those state agency

439
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: funds come from UM either license sales or or Pitt

440
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: and Robertson funds UM or excise taxes. And that's that's

441
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: that's huge. And over the over this eighty years of

442
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: its existence, there's something like eighteen billion dollars or the

443
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: funding that's that's been pushed in. That's just that number

444
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: is amazing to me and it's amazing as a as

445
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: a child that I wasn't taught that, or coming up

446
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: as a hunter that that wasn't in just instilled in

447
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: me that you're part of this history, this tapestry of

448
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: a bunch of really smart people who cared about wildlife.

449
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: They created this amazing thing that you're now paying into

450
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: UM for this privilege. And I wonder if you have

451
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: thoughts on why we don't as Americans celebrate that as

452
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: much UM as I think we should. Well, I think

453
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: part of the reason is just that, you know, you

454
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: have to have UM. The idea of communicating history has

455
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: to be someone's purpose, just like anything else in society. UM.

456
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: The idea of communicating your political history, for example, in

457
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: the United States of America, has been a has been

458
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: undertaken by generations of amazing writers and historians and academics, etcetera.

459
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: And so you know what happened joining, for example, the

460
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: formative years of the founding of the United States, what

461
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: happened during the time of the Revolutionary War, what happened

462
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: at the time of the building of the consensus at

463
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: strife around the constitutional frameworks? UM, what happened joining to

464
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: America during the Civil war or what America's entry in

465
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: the Two World Wars. You know, you know America has done.

466
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: Your country has on an amazing job of capturing that

467
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: history and bringing that history to the American people. Similarly, um,

468
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: you know, the efforts of your armed forces over you know,

469
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: a very long period of time, obviously has been widely

470
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: celebrated and communicated and commemorated um by you know, American

471
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: citizens who who who gave that knowledge and offered that

472
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: knowledge to the rest of the public. And that's why

473
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: there is such strong support in your country today for

474
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: the men and women who serve in your own forces.

475
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: But someone has to do it, someone has to take

476
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: this on. And you know, while many people today talk

477
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: about the North American model, I remember when that term

478
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: was born, and that term did not exist until nineteen

479
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: nineteen eight, did not exist in the English language. Yet

480
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people I talked to today, you know,

481
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: kind of you know, speak about that term as though

482
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: it's kind of always been with us. Well, no, it

483
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: wasn't always with us at all. And the interesting thing

484
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: is that it was a Canadian who came up with

485
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: the term, of course, Dr Valerius Geist, and I was

486
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: a student of his, of course, and remain a great

487
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: and fast friend of this amazing man, and I undertook

488
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: the idea of popularizing it and then, working with other colleagues,

489
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: we did just that. So when somebody raises the term

490
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: North American model, it is a primary example of what

491
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: I am saying in response to your question. It took

492
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: a group of people who were determined to communicate this

493
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: history to make that emission without any real resources. We

494
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: didn't have any plan. All I knew was that this

495
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: concept had to go forward and led to efforts that

496
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: eventually involved state agencies and provincial agencies and governments. And

497
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: when I see the North American model as a term today,

498
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: it makes me sort of marvel at the fact that

499
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 1: we can bring a new concept to the broad public

500
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: and have it embedded and have it talked about it

501
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: and have it exercised. But what it amounted to was

502
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: a need, a need to explain to people that there was,

503
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: in fact a model in North America. So in a way,

504
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: it too was born of crisis. Because one of the

505
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: reasons why that term was developed it was because there

506
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: was a growing trend in Canada and the United States

507
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 1: at that time in the nineteen eighties, nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties,

508
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: and which persists to this day of privatizing wildlife HM

509
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: and the the arguments that developed between those who were

510
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: in favor and those of us who opposed. The privatization

511
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: of wildlife, which remains, as you know, a very hot topic,

512
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: led to the question of well, what's at stake? And

513
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: it was a result of that question being posed in

514
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: people's minds that they're developed a response. And the response

515
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: to what was at stake eventually became formulated in the

516
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: concept of the North American model, which described the system

517
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: of institutions, policies, and laws that arose out of the

518
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: sustainable use of wildlife, which we've just talked about going

519
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: back to the time at Roosevelt and Grenelle, etcetera. That

520
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 1: that system was real, it wasn't a falsehood. And if

521
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: we were to privatize wildlife, many many, many of those policies, laws,

522
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: and institutions would be rendered either unimportant, useless, contradictory um

523
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: and eventually we would undermine the successes of North American conservation.

524
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: And that's where that term came from. So it too

525
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: very much been was really born out of the need

526
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: to defend something that's need, that's something really to really

527
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: to look a look through here in this conversation. I

528
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: mean that this I believe there are seven tenants of

529
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: that model. Talk through that. I mean talk to how

530
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,919
Speaker 1: those were determined or or how you call those out

531
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: and what that structure you look like, and why that

532
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: was important. But I think the first thing to say

533
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: at the outset with this, because you know, this is

534
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: a conversation that you know often arises in as and

535
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: as different viewpoints are brought to bear on it. You know,

536
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: questions of roles will know why seven went out? Ten?

537
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: Why not this one? Why not that one? And they

538
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: the idea of putting together this framework was not too

539
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: um was not to suggest that this was all their

540
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: loss or two say this could not be rewritten or

541
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: redefined or improved upon, or attitude. There was never any

542
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: of that kind of authoritarian and kind of dictation going

543
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 1: on when this ferment started in the late nineteen eighties

544
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: and carried through through the nineties and now as a

545
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: sort of common discussion of Parlors. No. But this was

546
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: was an attempt to remind people in Canada and the

547
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: United States that we did have this system first of all,

548
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: that there really was a system. And that system included

549
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: things like the Pittman Robertson Fund, and it included things

550
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 1: like state agencies, and included things like government programs, and

551
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: included things like international treaties for migratory birds. It included

552
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 1: things like the strong science programs and so on and

553
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: so forth. And it was they were like identified as

554
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 1: major principles or ideas to remind everybody that they need

555
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: not have happened when we started the conservation movement that

556
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: the late nineteen hundreds, early part of the the late

557
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, early part of the twentieth century, we had

558
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: very few game laws. We had no enforcement agencies. We

559
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: did not have any university programs. We did not have

560
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: any state or provincial agencies. We did not have any

561
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: federal agencies responsible for these resources. We did not have

562
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: the science programs at the universities. We did not have

563
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: any of those things, and nothing said that we had to.

564
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: But they emerged bit by bit, synergizing and actualizing one another,

565
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: until we built up this system that relies on agencies

566
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 1: and professionals and academ EMICs and and and participants, hunters

567
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: and anglers and other people. And so the seven principles

568
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: that are identified should be seen as guideposts, as very

569
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: important and integral, and their principles in the sense that

570
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: they they speak to philosophical things, you know, um, wildlife,

571
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: the marketing of dead wildlife excuse me, would no longer

572
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: be part of the North American system, and that obviously

573
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 1: was an attempt to move against the market hunting issues.

574
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: The principle that wildlife is an international resource, you know,

575
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: the idea that wildlife moved across boundaries, both across state

576
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: boundaries and between the United States and Canada, Mexico and

577
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: the parts of the world, and that only by accepting

578
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: that could we come up with the institutions that would

579
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: be necessary for conserving the waterfowl being at best example,

580
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: the idea that wildlife that hunting would be a right

581
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: of every citizen, but of course they would need to

582
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 1: be appropriately trained and you know, certified, and to do

583
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: it under legal means and so on. So these were

584
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,919
Speaker 1: the kinds of principles that were identified and originally by

585
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: hilarious guist Uh and promulgated afterwards by many others. But

586
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: they were identified to remind again people in governments and

587
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: in policy institutions that these principles really mattered. For example,

588
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: the principle that science is the basis for management. This

589
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: is a principle that we have abided by in North

590
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: America for the last hundred years and eighty years since

591
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: we started to gain real knowledge of of wildlife science.

592
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: And as you know, there is a big debate today

593
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: about whether we are starting to turn our back on

594
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: science and manage wildlife from a totally emotional perspective. So,

595
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: you know, it's a really important man that the audience

596
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: understand that the principles are are not sort of meant

597
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: to be like the like Moses delivering tablets, you know

598
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: what I mean, like the there's a flexibility and an

599
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: organic part of all of this that we have to accept,

600
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: and that means we have to accept a lot of

601
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: different viewpoints as being potentially legitimate, but of course they

602
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 1: have to all pass the critical test, and the critical

603
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 1: test is whether those viewpoints are in the best long

604
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: term interest of wildlife, right, And I think that it's

605
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: such I mean for everyone listening here. I knew a

606
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 1: little bit about the beginning of that model and learned

607
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: about it here recently and was shocked to know that

608
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: it wasn't longer reaching than the eighties, but I think

609
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: or you spend that in to you know, you start

610
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: off at the turn of the center and you spin

611
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: that into the current day. You look at the grizzly

612
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: bear hunting band in British Columbia, and then the the

613
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: constant really just debate around wolves and apex predators, mountain lions,

614
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: and the emotionality that that that it's sucked into these

615
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 1: debates where pragmatism is kind of not able to shine through.

616
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: You are you concerned about about those ideas? And and

617
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: because of the history of our wildlife conservation is so pragmatic,

618
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: do you do you feel like the loss of that

619
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: in some way is going to be one of the

620
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: hardest battles that conservation has to fight. I think it's

621
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: one of the battles that conservation has to fight. But again,

622
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: I take a somewhat different view of all of this

623
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: um confusion and mayhem, if you will, because at the

624
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: same time that we can argue that, you know, science

625
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: must be the basis where decision may king. I think

626
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: we all really accept in any quiet moment of reflection,

627
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: that emotionality and passion are not restricted to any particular

628
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: group within society or the conservation debate. Hunters of passions

629
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: not anters of passion and die. Hunters of passionate um.

630
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: Those who have more of a preservation philosophy, who are

631
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: primarily focused on say things like national parks and and

632
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: you know, protected areas. They have great passion and great commitment,

633
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: and they have a very legitimate argument to make about

634
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: these these institutions and policies being a part of the

635
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: conservation matrix. I don't think there's anybody today who would

636
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: say that we do not need to consider protected areas

637
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: or national parks or stay parts of things of that nature,

638
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: even if they exclude hunting in some or many or cases.

639
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: I think most people would agree, yes, they're very much needed.

640
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: People might say, you know, well, I only think they

641
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: should be in place if there's an animal that's in

642
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: desperate need of a protected space. Other people would say no, no,

643
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: I think they must be much more expensive than that.

644
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 1: But I think most people would agree that we need

645
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: a a if I could say, a more preservationist element

646
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,240
Speaker 1: in the mix. At the same time, hunters and anglers

647
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: are very passionate about their traditions and often speak with

648
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: great emotion and little science about their particular activities. Um.

649
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 1: And I think that's really helpful because I think if

650
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: we were all to speak simply dispassionately about animals, I

651
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 1: don't think there would be any hope for them in

652
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: this world. So I think the trick here is to

653
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: realize that there are certain elements and questions that demand

654
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: a combination of science and passionate commitment, and that we

655
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: need to collectively all sides of this debate figure out

656
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 1: that appropriate balance. Now, there are philosophical differences between people.

657
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: You know, some people believe in animal rights, for example,

658
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: as a somewhat more extreme view, and a lot of

659
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: people do not. But as you move down and across

660
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: the spectrum of conservation and ideas, you know, there's much

661
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: more similarity between groups of people. Then there are differences,

662
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: and we need to find that ground as well as

663
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: a as a basis for discussion. I am, however, very

664
00:45:53,520 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: concerned that science is being um um, the profile that

665
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: science has in the management of wilife is being decreased.

666
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: I think we are living in a world where information

667
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: overload is the common practice. We're living in a world

668
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: because of our new technologies that allow every opinion to

669
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,240
Speaker 1: be instantly received by hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands,

670
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: millions of people UM. And that phenomenon is affecting a

671
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 1: lot more than just the management of wildlife. It is

672
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: undermining scholarship in many ways because everybody is an expert.

673
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: It is undermining good science in many ways because anybody

674
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 1: can get out there in quotation marks scientific opinion. Uh,

675
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, through mechanisms that are not controlled in any sense.

676
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: You know, it's not like you have to publish in

677
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: a peer review journal, because you can just get it

678
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 1: out there through Facebook or YouTube or whatever you want

679
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: to do, a Ted talk whatever. This is leading to

680
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: a decent ableize circumstance of knowledge and I think this

681
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: has very significant and dangerous implications for UM, for the

682
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: management of wild And let me give you an example.

683
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: So we have a great many people who are opposed

684
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: to the idea of international trophy hunting, for example, because

685
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: they identify it as an egotistical proposition. Somebody travels from

686
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: one country to a place like Africa and they shoot

687
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: an elephant to rely on things of this nature that

688
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: they bring back the trophies and they put them in

689
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: their living rooms or whatever. There's trophy rooms, and a

690
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 1: lot of people have a negative view towards this, including

691
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: by the way, many hunters, as you know. Um. But

692
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: the so the emotionality is I don't like this, um.

693
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: You know, the animals should not be taken for that reason.

694
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: The primary motivation is not for food, etcetera, etcetera. And

695
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 1: so I don't believe this should be done. But the

696
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: reality is, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you view

697
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: this issue. The reality, the scientific, empirical, knowledge based reality

698
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: is that that activity contributes to the conservation of wildlife

699
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 1: habitat and wildlife species in many regions. It isn't perfect,

700
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: it isn't without corruption and loss and disfigurement. But there's

701
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: no question that when you analyze and bring the facts

702
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: together and interpret them, that those activities help, in some

703
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: specific cases to significantly improve the chances for existence for

704
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 1: lions and pray species and ecosystems. Indeed that would otherwise

705
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: be lost to other activities if hunting was not occurring there,

706
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: that would end up inevitably in the loss wildlife. So

707
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: this is a this is a classic example. Let's before

708
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 1: us right now. On the emotional side, many people find

709
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: it difficult to understand. But when faced with the absolute

710
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: facts that here is the alternative. Have these activities and

711
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: protect that wildlife landscape, or lose those activities and lose

712
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: the wildlife that exists there. And many people will say, ah,

713
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that. I still don't like it, perhaps,

714
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: but I have to accept that it has merit for

715
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: the conservation of wildlife. And I think this is the

716
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: important thing. Then about emotionality. The important thing is to

717
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: have a litmus test for emotionality. So I have a

718
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: lot of people in the non hunting world who dialogue

719
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: with me, and I have a lot of people in

720
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: the hunting world who dialogue with me. And I have

721
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: some people in the world to dialogue with me who

722
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: say we cannot understand how you are a hunter, and

723
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: I say, I understand why you find it difficult to understand.

724
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: But for me, there is only one question. So whether

725
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: I like a particular decision, you know, whether that's about

726
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: protected areas or or hunting and angling, or any any

727
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 1: issue that you can think about that impinges on conservation.

728
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: My only only question, ultimately to myself is will this

729
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: benefit wildless And if it does, I'm in favor of it,

730
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: even if I don't like it and I'm against it,

731
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: I'm against it obviously if it fails that test. Yes,

732
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 1: And I think it's a great point you make about emotionality.

733
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: And I just feel like because hunting and conservation, and

734
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: especially in a different continent with a different set of

735
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: value systems, I think that the complexity and nuance is

736
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: lost in that emotionality. And that's what really what hunting

737
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: is grounded upon, is that it is nuanced and that

738
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: it is complex UM and it a lot of times

739
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: it's oxymoronic, as you as you explained, there's a lot

740
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: of ideas that killing animals to save them is a

741
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: general one. Who get all the time that people say,

742
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: well that makes no sense. Well, yeah, maybe on his

743
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: face it makes no sense. But if you use, you know,

744
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: your question of is it good for wild life as

745
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: the guiding principle, I think that always gets us gets

746
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: us to the right place. Do you do you feel like,

747
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: specifically the British Columbia grizzly bear band is something that

748
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: UM will be repeated and does that concern you or

749
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: do you feel like that's a UM an outlier in

750
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: some way? No, I wouldn't say that it's an outlier, um,

751
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: but I also think that it's a It's a classic

752
00:51:55,600 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 1: example of how of how our attachment to wildlife at

753
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: an emotional level and a psychological level really tends to

754
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: play out the issue of the hunting of carnivores generally

755
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 1: mountain lions, grizzly bears, wolves, um is. You know, it's

756
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 1: a phenomenon that's debated intensively, not only in North America,

757
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: but it's intensively debated in UH in Europe as well

758
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: at present time, where links and wolves and even bears,

759
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: brown bears are expanding their range. I mean, we have

760
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,439
Speaker 1: we have wolves now living you know, the outskirts of Rome, um.

761
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 1: And so it's generating an incredibly intense discussion and debate

762
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: on social acceptance of the animals themselves by rural people

763
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: and shepherds and people who have livestock, etcetera. Uh and

764
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: of course by people who are opposed at a philosophical

765
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: level to all kinds of hunting. So it certainly is

766
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 1: not an isolated event. And of all the hunting that

767
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: takes place in in Africa, of course, you know, it

768
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: is the it is the hunting of lions which is

769
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: one of the absolute most intensely discussed and debated, and

770
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: of course the conservation programs that have developed in other countries,

771
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,919
Speaker 1: let's say for India, for example, which is very much

772
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: a conservation program built in almost entirely on protected areas

773
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: and preservationist ideals. It was the tiger, of course, that

774
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: became sort of the emblematic and sort of was helpful

775
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: or encouraging or incentivizing for that nation to to undertake

776
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: the massive conservation efforts and very successful conservation efforts. I

777
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,959
Speaker 1: would point out that they have, so I certainly don't

778
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: see these grizzly bear carnivore the issue, you know, as

779
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: being isolated in a sense. And the debate within British

780
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: Columbia has been ongoing for a very very long period

781
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: of time um and that province has seesawed back and

782
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: forth on the issue. It has mounted several scientific reviews

783
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: of grizzly bear populations and sustainability over time. In fact,

784
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: the Province of British Columbia has invested quite heavily, more

785
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: heavily than most jurisdictions politically in trying to you know,

786
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: sort of get at this question and decide whether there

787
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:32,280
Speaker 1: should be hunting for grizzly bears or not. UM. So

788
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: I think that we can expect a great deal more

789
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: of this. UM. If I were to look at this

790
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: whole issue from the anti hunting point of view, I

791
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: think that there's a tremendous amount of focus globally on

792
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: African hunting and trophy hunting and so on in the

793
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: African context at the present time, which we're all aware of. UM.

794
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: It remains to be seen. What it's going to unfold

795
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 1: on the continent is many, many great complexities obviously there UM.

796
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 1: But I think it is fair to say that there

797
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: will be increasing attention paid over time to the hunting

798
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: of the charismatic big carnivores in North America, and that

799
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: is going to lead to even further increased debates over wolves, reintroductions,

800
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: management status of these species, interactions with the Endangered Species Act.

801
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: I think any of us who believe that that is

802
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: not going to continue and be an intense debate are

803
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: fooling ourselves. It is going to be very real. On

804
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: the other hand, UM, you know, the idea that we

805
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: can have unrestrained growth of large, dangerous carnivores in our

806
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: midst greatly bears, for example, but also wolves which can

807
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: be dangerous animals of course, and mountain lion, which we

808
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 1: know can prey on people, etcetera. You know, whether you

809
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 1: know society at large, it has a sort of an

810
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: unlimited either indifference or willingness to accept these large carnivores

811
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: in their midst You know, that remains to be seen,

812
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: and I, you know, I highly doubt that you know,

813
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: people are going to eventually want just you know, uncontrolled

814
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 1: numbers of these of these big predators in their midst

815
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: We we live in a time we're that realistically, you know,

816
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: cannot play out. And of course what tends to happen

817
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 1: in these debates is that the people who don't necessarily

818
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 1: live with the dangerous wildlife are often the ones who

819
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: most vociferously wanted protected at all costs. Having said all

820
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 1: of that, there is a reason why these big carnivores

821
00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: capture our imagination, generate so much emotionality. Uh. This is

822
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: not by accident, and this is not a product of

823
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 1: modern media or any of those things. You know, we

824
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: have always had this extraordinary relationship with the big carnivores.

825
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: You know, we mythologize them, we feared them, we marveled

826
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: at them. Um, you know, we have always had even

827
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: as hunter gatherer people's there have always been cults and

828
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: and amulets and things that have celebrated these big carnivores

829
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: as a sense of power and prestige and so on

830
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: and so forth. So we should not see the modern

831
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: debate over these big carnivores as something new, or if

832
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: you're on the anti hunting side, see hunter's interest in

833
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: managing or hunting those animals as something new and bizarre.

834
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: Nor from the hunting side, we see the emotionality to safeguard, protect,

835
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, those those animals as being something that is

836
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: bizarre or new either. It kind of always has been

837
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: with us. And it's for that reason that alone that

838
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: I feel confident that we will continue to have major

839
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: debates over what is best to do with with these

840
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: big carnivores. And um, you know, society's values change over time.

841
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 1: The values in America and the values in Canada, the

842
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: two countries that we talked most about within the North

843
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: American context, although they're not the only countries Mexico is

844
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: there in those two countries, and I may say probably

845
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: particularly in the United States. Um, there are really significant

846
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: cultural shifts taking place as the society becomes more diverse,

847
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: as new and different values emerge in the urbanized centers.

848
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: As we've talked about earlier in the party cast, there's

849
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 1: a lot of reason for us to expect that the

850
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: idea that carnivore hunting will be criticized, you know, we

851
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: we should expect that this is probably going to continue

852
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: because of the social trends that we can see before us.

853
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: And the real question is, then, um, how do we,

854
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: from a hunting perspective, you know, mount the most socially

855
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 1: effective arguments for having a sustainable harvesting, management based harvest

856
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: of those of those carnivores. And some might say that

857
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 1: we are already doing that. I would agree. Some might

858
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: say we're probably not doing it as effectively as we

859
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: would hope to, and I would agree with that also.

860
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: So I think we we need to be prepared for

861
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 1: a continuing long term debate over the harvesting of grizzly

862
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: bears and it will never be settled then, in my view, absolutely.

863
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: In other words, is it possible for me to envisage

864
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: your time in British Columbia, for example, where some kind

865
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: of limited harvesting of grizzly bears. Um. You know, is

866
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 1: is permitted or could things change again? Yes, I believe

867
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 1: they could, um and um. But even if they do,

868
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: they won't change in that direction forever either. Well, and

869
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: you make some great points there. One one of those

870
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 1: is that this is just a continuing conversation like that,

871
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 1: this is through generations. Obviously, you know the cultural societal

872
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: changes will drive this conversation one way or the other way.

873
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: But this is to me just a continuing conversation. And

874
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 1: and if it was, if it was one question I

875
01:00:57,640 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: think I feel like we all have to ask is

876
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 1: and you've said this in the past, It's like, is

877
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: what you're doing good for wildlife? Is it good for society?

878
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: Good for for our society? That also is it good

879
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: for wildlife? And if you can continue to answer that

880
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: question yes every time, UM, I think we we will

881
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 1: be okay in the sense of hunting. But one thing

882
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 1: that has concerned me, and we've talked about this in

883
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: the previous podcast A good bit is just the general

884
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 1: sense that hunting in and of itself, the act of hunting,

885
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: does not have the best public relations UM in in

886
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of of the world, whether that's you know,

887
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: moreover the Africa trophy hunting issue, but but generally just

888
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 1: the killing of an animal for sport, or or how

889
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: you would explain modern sport hunting. Do you feel like,

890
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 1: you know, in that ongoing conversation there is a way

891
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 1: that you would would talk to hunters and say like, hey, here,

892
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: here are a couple of things we can do better

893
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:59,439
Speaker 1: to drive this conversation in such a way that eliminates

894
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: some the negative pr that we currently feel. Um, whether

895
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 1: you think it's due to to really what hunters have

896
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: put out there into the world, or that the world

897
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: is changing in the face of hunting, long question, but well,

898
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 1: I think there's a tremendous amount we can do. Frankly,

899
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 1: and I I've always believed this, and I've always marveled

900
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 1: at how slow we are to do them. I can't explain, um,

901
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 1: you know, I don't find it hard to explain to

902
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: the debate that's going on in society at all. I

903
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: don't find it hard to understand the value systems, or

904
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 1: the philosophies or the opinions of people who are opposed

905
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 1: to hunting at all. I don't have any difficulty understanding that, Uh,

906
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: just as I don't have any difficulty understanding why people

907
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 1: feel so passionately about hunting and and how people can

908
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,919
Speaker 1: become real conservationists not only through hunting, but as part

909
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 1: of their hunting world. I don't have any problem understanding

910
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: any of that. And I don't think any group on

911
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: either side of that divide, if we can call it that,

912
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: are are more or less intelligent, or more or less fanatical,

913
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 1: or more or less emotional, as I've said before, and

914
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: I don't think any of that is a distinction. What

915
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: I really find difficult to understanding is why the hunting

916
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: public has been so slow to do some of the

917
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 1: obvious things that we always should have been doing, and

918
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 1: to cease doing some of the things that we obviously

919
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 1: should never have been doing. So in the latter case,

920
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 1: for example, some of the graphic imagery that we have

921
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 1: been showing for now twenty five years, quarter of a century,

922
01:03:56,240 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: it's a long time on our television shows, UM, often

923
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: accompanied by you know, the glorification of the kill and

924
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 1: of an animal in suffering or an animal which has suffered. UM.

925
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 1: This has done incredible damage to the hunting world. Whether

926
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: the hunters want to admit it, Whether the production companies

927
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 1: want to admit it, whether the television stations want to

928
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: commit it or admitted I don't really care. It has

929
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 1: and it continues in today's world of almost inevitable viral exchange.

930
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: It has opened up the possibility, through hard to track channels,

931
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 1: an enormous flow of this kind of information to distant

932
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: computers and cell phones all around the world that provide

933
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 1: no context and which inevitably need the naive observer to

934
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 1: fall on the side of opposition to hunting. Um. Things

935
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:12,959
Speaker 1: we also should never have done is we should never

936
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: have tried to prove to the anti hunting world that

937
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: the only thing we care about when we call ourselves

938
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: conservation is the are the animals that we hunt. So

939
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 1: I'd like to ask you, Ben, and ask your audience

940
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: how many of the organizations that we have that are

941
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 1: based on hunters and founded by hunters and talk about

942
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: doing conservation, how many of them are really focused a

943
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 1: non hunted species at all? Yeah, how many awards do

944
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 1: you see being given out at those events for people

945
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: working on non hunted species? What do we think conservation

946
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,440
Speaker 1: and ended with the game animals? Well, that's the exact

947
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 1: message we give all the time, and our industries are

948
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:11,479
Speaker 1: giving it all the time. So when you ask about

949
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 1: the things we shouldn't be doing, I think there's there's

950
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: probably millions of little things that go on the social

951
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 1: media circuit every day we shouldn't be doing. And then

952
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:24,959
Speaker 1: to get on and say that, you know, criticize people

953
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: who are against hunting and say that they have no

954
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: conservation ethic and so on? Did John You're not have

955
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: a conservation ethic? Yeah? Who's going to stand up and

956
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 1: say that that's ridiculous? So this is the other things

957
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 1: that we do as a as hunters that are things

958
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 1: that we we we we should not be doing, but

959
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 1: we we do all the time. We shouldn't be slandering

960
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 1: people with sort of racial nomenclatures like green eads, you know,

961
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 1: and antis. Notice how they all end in those ease

962
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: like Nazis and so on and so forth. What do

963
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: you think that makes us look like? I mean, these

964
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: are all things that I look at, and I've looked

965
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 1: at for twenty five years, and I've I've I've spoken

966
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: as much, I think as any human being before hunting

967
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 1: audiences and talked about these issues to virtually no avail,

968
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 1: and in my own personal estimation, I don't think I've

969
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 1: moved the needle one bit. What do you what do

970
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: you think? What do you think it's going to take

971
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 1: to change that? Is it going to take some kind

972
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:27,920
Speaker 1: of you're going to take to change that? As a crisis,

973
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 1: and I think we're getting damned close. In the last

974
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: five years, we lost two million hunters in the United

975
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: States of America. By our own surveys, we've lost two million.

976
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 1: We have a demographic wave moving through the hunting population

977
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 1: in the United States and Canada that inevitably made were

978
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 1: inevitably means we are going to lose millions more by

979
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 1: the demographic wave. I'm obviously referring to just we're a

980
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 1: very old age class. Yea, we call them age classes

981
01:07:57,520 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 1: in the hunting world, we call them baby boomers. In

982
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 1: this country, that generation, recruitment processes are not replacing them.

983
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 1: So I think we're going to need a crisis, and

984
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: we're also going to need to have some conservation leadership

985
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 1: in the hunting community stand up and do certain things.

986
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:16,759
Speaker 1: So it's fine for me to say what we shouldn't

987
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,640
Speaker 1: be doing, but I think there there also needs to

988
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 1: be ideas about what we should be doing. So. Here's

989
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,720
Speaker 1: an idea that I have offered up to a number

990
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:29,800
Speaker 1: of organizations in the hunting world. Take some significant percentage

991
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:31,639
Speaker 1: of all the money that comes in from the from

992
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 1: the hunting world and devoted into some broader conservation effort.

993
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 1: Why don't we give ten percent of the money that

994
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: we raise two non hunted species efforts. Yeah, sea turtles

995
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,679
Speaker 1: or dolphins or other things that have captured butterflies, things

996
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:50,759
Speaker 1: that have captured the imagination of children around the world.

997
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 1: Why don't we prove that we are really about conservation

998
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:57,640
Speaker 1: written large, and not just about conserving the animals that

999
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 1: we shoot. Why don't we establish awards for people who

1000
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 1: do things in conservation, and whether they be a hunter

1001
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 1: or a non hunter, treat them equally, as is now

1002
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:11,559
Speaker 1: starting to happen. Why don't we develop television shows that

1003
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 1: celebrate the animal. I mean, there's a million things that

1004
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 1: can be done. I mean, you know, and there's there's

1005
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 1: good efforts starting along these roads. Then, I mean, there

1006
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 1: are companies you know that that are out there are

1007
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,759
Speaker 1: starting to do really good things in this world about

1008
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 1: conservation and the and the new films that are being

1009
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 1: produced by some of those companies are excellent, and we're

1010
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 1: we're seeing some movement in the television world. We're starting

1011
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 1: to see this, but we need to do it all

1012
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 1: much harder and much faster. As I've said to many

1013
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 1: people running our hunting conventions, the day that the non

1014
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:56,000
Speaker 1: hunting world, the day that the non hunting world, and

1015
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 1: I would say even the anti hunting world can find

1016
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 1: something of real value when merits for them on that floor,

1017
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 1: then we will have begun to move forward in the

1018
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:13,880
Speaker 1: way that Teddy Roosevelt imagined. Yeah. Yeah, do you think

1019
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 1: that man was a fanatic about songbirds? He love birds

1020
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 1: more than he loved hunting. Yeah, yeah, A naturalist, a naturalist. Yeah,

1021
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:33,400
Speaker 1: do you feel like, uh going forward? You know, there

1022
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 1: is this mentality in hunting that I've seen, and I've

1023
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 1: seen it propagated by a lot of very famous folks,

1024
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 1: a lot of some of the figureheads of our industry

1025
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: from a celebrity standpoint, that said every hunter should should

1026
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 1: support every hunter, like this idea of tribalism, like we

1027
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,639
Speaker 1: must if we don't all support each other, will fall

1028
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:58,719
Speaker 1: at our core. Or if if if we don't support

1029
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 1: every type of hunting, re hunter or every pursuit, then

1030
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: we somehow fail. I personally don't agree with that. Do

1031
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 1: you feel like that's part of the reason why change

1032
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 1: hasn't been as a parent for the hunting world? Um,

1033
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 1: I know that some people feel that way, and I

1034
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:23,080
Speaker 1: have some empathy for the position, because you know, if

1035
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 1: it's a hunting community, just like any other community, a

1036
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 1: political party, or a country, you know, it's just constantly

1037
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 1: consumed by infighting, and clearly that's that's not a good thing,

1038
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 1: and it destabilizes the best of messages and the best

1039
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,919
Speaker 1: of intentions. So I have an empathy for that viewpoint.

1040
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 1: But like you, I feel there's a limit to this.

1041
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 1: I feel that we have to we have to realize

1042
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 1: that hunting has to be made relevant in a modern society.

1043
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:59,559
Speaker 1: We cannot continue to treat it as though it is

1044
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 1: experience of the American and Canadian frontier. We have moved

1045
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:09,200
Speaker 1: moved a long way from the days of Lewis and Clark.

1046
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:12,759
Speaker 1: We've moved a long way from the days of Autubon.

1047
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:16,080
Speaker 1: We've moved a long way from the days of Roosevelt.

1048
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:18,480
Speaker 1: We moved a long way from the days of Leopold.

1049
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 1: We've moved fifty to sixty years beyond the days of

1050
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:27,440
Speaker 1: Rachel Carson in Silent Spring, fifty to sixty years a generation.

1051
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:32,760
Speaker 1: And we have to make this activity the oldest of

1052
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 1: human activities. We have to make this relevant to a

1053
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 1: modern society. We have to normalize hunting in a moderate society.

1054
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:48,599
Speaker 1: And when you start to think about those as your goals,

1055
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 1: which they are mine, I wish to normalize it. I

1056
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:54,840
Speaker 1: don't wish to exceptionalize it. I don't wish to make

1057
01:12:54,880 --> 01:13:00,040
Speaker 1: it exceptional. I want to make it relevant um. And

1058
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 1: you start to think about doing things very differently. You

1059
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:08,800
Speaker 1: start to think about new organizations. You start to think

1060
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:12,559
Speaker 1: about new magazines. You start to think about new television shows.

1061
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:16,519
Speaker 1: You start to think about new marketing possibilities. You start

1062
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 1: to think about new coalitions. You start to think about

1063
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:25,599
Speaker 1: things like food, wild food. You start to think about

1064
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:30,719
Speaker 1: people whom love animals, and you want to be able

1065
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,559
Speaker 1: to reach out to them and talk to them about

1066
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 1: your own love of animals. Um. You start to explain

1067
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 1: the fact that the rancher who is still believed to

1068
01:13:41,320 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 1: care very much for his animals as he does, or

1069
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 1: the small scale farmer who does care very much for

1070
01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:51,639
Speaker 1: their animals, they know those animals will die. In fact,

1071
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:55,720
Speaker 1: they're raising them for death. Yet they have managed to

1072
01:13:56,040 --> 01:14:02,360
Speaker 1: maintain a position in society that's viewed as relevant and valuable,

1073
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:05,799
Speaker 1: and they are believed to really care for their animals.

1074
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: Isn't that true? It is, so we need to ask

1075
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:13,479
Speaker 1: ourselves the question, why do so many people believe that

1076
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 1: we don't care? Is it really the animal death issue?

1077
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:23,439
Speaker 1: Because that's just the same for the rancher in the farmer.

1078
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:30,559
Speaker 1: Maybe it's us, Maybe it is. Yeah, And I think

1079
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 1: there is introspection needed, and I appreciate yours personally, and

1080
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 1: then the forced, you know, forced introspection that we can

1081
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 1: all get from conversations like these. I think it is

1082
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:50,599
Speaker 1: absolutely essential to challenge every idea, um and everything that

1083
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:54,679
Speaker 1: that we believe is true. Because, as I'm sure you are,

1084
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:58,680
Speaker 1: our upbringings are very different. But I'm sure as you

1085
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:01,679
Speaker 1: have come to to be a part of this broad

1086
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 1: conservation movement, you've changed your ideals and adjusted with your

1087
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:09,080
Speaker 1: expanded knowledge. And the more you've known, the more that

1088
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 1: you have theorized new things. And I think that is

1089
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:14,799
Speaker 1: that's true for me as a hunter to a smaller

1090
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:18,639
Speaker 1: scale than you, But I think that every hunter should

1091
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,440
Speaker 1: listen to your words and just and start to examine

1092
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:24,439
Speaker 1: the ways in which they act and the ways which

1093
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 1: their groups act, and how that can be be better

1094
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 1: constituted to get to the goals that that that you

1095
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:34,120
Speaker 1: put forward. UM, yes, I totally agree with you, Ben,

1096
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:37,639
Speaker 1: and I would say this too. And you know, despite

1097
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:41,320
Speaker 1: the fact that in this podcast we have covered a

1098
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:44,240
Speaker 1: lot of intense series and problematic areas and so on

1099
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:51,040
Speaker 1: and so forth, the the the the resilient truth is

1100
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:57,679
Speaker 1: that when the hunter man, woman, young, old, and when

1101
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:04,760
Speaker 1: the hunting community of every that mixture operates at its

1102
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 1: best with a conservation ethic in mind, with the idea

1103
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 1: of what is best for wildlife in mind, it is

1104
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:24,640
Speaker 1: a It is an unsurpassed force for the good of wildlife. UM.

1105
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 1: And the frustrations that some of us carry every day

1106
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 1: when we are embedded in these debates every day, is

1107
01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:37,600
Speaker 1: that we know that to be true. And what I

1108
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 1: am trying to do in my small world of influence

1109
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 1: and with the time and energy I have, is to

1110
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:52,840
Speaker 1: unlock that part of the hunting world and to chip

1111
01:16:52,840 --> 01:17:00,400
Speaker 1: away at things that that limit that potential. And just said,

1112
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:03,559
Speaker 1: it's free, as it was set free at the turn

1113
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 1: of the twentieth century and which history proves did an

1114
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:17,120
Speaker 1: absolutely unbelievable thing. All the odds were against us yea

1115
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:20,599
Speaker 1: as a nation's I mean not just as hunters were

1116
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:23,280
Speaker 1: against our nations. Well you think about white tail white

1117
01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 1: tail deer. I mean five hundred thousand of them in

1118
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:31,560
Speaker 1: ninety seven. Today there's thirty million of them. That is unbelievable.

1119
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 1: Um And as we've often said, and that this greater conversation,

1120
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 1: there's not this isn't, you know, some big attempt just

1121
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 1: to be negative. It is just an attempt to talk

1122
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:44,000
Speaker 1: through some of the tougher things and get to the

1123
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 1: point where we all know where we have to be.

1124
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:49,519
Speaker 1: Is that that you're There's the reason that hunting has

1125
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 1: changed my life and conservation surely has changed yours is

1126
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 1: that it is it is transformative in many ways. So

1127
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 1: that's why it's important to me and to you. And

1128
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:01,559
Speaker 1: while these conversations happen, so um I that's a good

1129
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 1: way to end it. But before we get out of here,

1130
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:06,880
Speaker 1: I want you to tell everybody, um yeah, about the

1131
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:09,479
Speaker 1: wild harvested issues. About something we've discussed in the past,

1132
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 1: and something I think it's very important going forward, and

1133
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 1: and something you've been working very hard on in recent past. Yes, well, uh,

1134
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:22,720
Speaker 1: it's very a proposed because, of course, um, it came

1135
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:28,760
Speaker 1: out of my thinking, much like the discussions we've had today.

1136
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: It came out of my thinking and my search for

1137
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 1: something that would make hunting really relevant in a modern society,

1138
01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:42,720
Speaker 1: and and instead of fighting social trends, to set it

1139
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 1: up in a way that is shows how it is

1140
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:50,600
Speaker 1: actually working with important social trends. And this led me

1141
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 1: to the idea of the growing concern that people have

1142
01:18:54,840 --> 01:19:00,719
Speaker 1: for health, for the role that the arm it around

1143
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:07,000
Speaker 1: and plays in maintaining or harming their health, and with

1144
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:10,280
Speaker 1: the concern that people have especially with respect to the

1145
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:16,439
Speaker 1: quality and source of their food. And in thinking about

1146
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:19,720
Speaker 1: all of this, I began to wonder, well, how much

1147
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 1: wild food do we really as hunters and as anglers

1148
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:27,080
Speaker 1: harvest in Canada and the United States, Given that you know,

1149
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 1: forty million of let's participate in those activities every year,

1150
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:35,240
Speaker 1: and just knowing from myself and from friends and colleagues,

1151
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:39,480
Speaker 1: just you know how much wild neat uh, some individuals

1152
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:42,960
Speaker 1: consume and just how many people they share it with.

1153
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:46,959
Speaker 1: So I launched this what's called the Wild Harvest initiative.

1154
01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 1: It is a continent wide assessment of the harvest of

1155
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 1: wild fish and birds and mammals UM you know, on

1156
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:02,679
Speaker 1: in Canada and the United States. UM. It is bringing

1157
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:06,320
Speaker 1: together the list of all species obviously in the list

1158
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:10,160
Speaker 1: of all harvests that are recorded by the management agencies.

1159
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:16,599
Speaker 1: It is estimating obviously the total biomass or total weight

1160
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:22,519
Speaker 1: pounds MS of of that harvest for all species UM,

1161
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:28,680
Speaker 1: then determining through various sources the actual consumable weights of

1162
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:34,040
Speaker 1: all of that harvest, working with economists to give it

1163
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:39,240
Speaker 1: a fair market value. And we are obviously talking billions

1164
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:44,640
Speaker 1: billions of pounds of wild food that is harvested, to

1165
01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 1: give that a an actual economic value, real economic value

1166
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 1: in today's market if it was in the marketplace, and

1167
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:59,520
Speaker 1: then to work with agricultural scientists and others to say, well, okay,

1168
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:02,680
Speaker 1: we have this commodity. It is worth this amount. It

1169
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 1: is providing this amount of food to people. Now, what

1170
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 1: would happen if we ended hunting and angling? You know

1171
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 1: what would it cause society to actually replace all of

1172
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:15,560
Speaker 1: this wild food? Along the way, we will be establishing

1173
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 1: a sharing index to indicate just how many people those

1174
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:25,760
Speaker 1: individuals who do hunt and fish how many people they

1175
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:28,720
Speaker 1: actually share that wild harvest with, so we get some

1176
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:33,440
Speaker 1: idea of the the ripple effect or the generosity footprint

1177
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:39,639
Speaker 1: of this activity in society. UM. And then we intend,

1178
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 1: of course, to to mobilize this knowledge in the context

1179
01:21:44,479 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 1: and coalition with people who harvest other things from the

1180
01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:52,360
Speaker 1: natural world, such as wild fruits and wild berries, wild

1181
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:57,360
Speaker 1: mushrooms and so on and so forth. Medicinal plants two

1182
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:04,760
Speaker 1: again pursue my goal of normalizing hunting and demonstrating to

1183
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:07,479
Speaker 1: a modern public, not the world I grew up in

1184
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:11,599
Speaker 1: because it has passed, but to a modern public why

1185
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 1: this activity remains relevant and why people should consider engaging

1186
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:20,400
Speaker 1: in it or coming to understand that the people who

1187
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:23,120
Speaker 1: do engage in it are doing something that is very

1188
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:28,120
Speaker 1: honorable and worthwhile. UM. I see the trends of where

1189
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 1: hunters and anglers are coming from you know what, demographic,

1190
01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:37,000
Speaker 1: what locations, and it is very clear that it is

1191
01:22:37,080 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 1: possible to reach people, bending back on the earlier part

1192
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:44,719
Speaker 1: of our conversation, who live in you know, urban areas

1193
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:47,320
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, because they are very

1194
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:51,360
Speaker 1: much concerned with this issue of food and the quality

1195
01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:54,599
Speaker 1: of food. UM. This is an attempt on my part

1196
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:58,880
Speaker 1: to bring hunting before the modern public in a way

1197
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:03,439
Speaker 1: that they're already sensitive to, which, as I said, is

1198
01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:06,320
Speaker 1: the quality of their of their food. And I'll also

1199
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:11,440
Speaker 1: be emphasizing the other aspects health benefits of this activity

1200
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:16,519
Speaker 1: in terms of emotional uh sensitivities you know, at the

1201
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:20,759
Speaker 1: time spent in the outdoors and in nature, the physical

1202
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:25,759
Speaker 1: activity benefits of the activities so appealing to the broader

1203
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 1: issues of human health, for which there is a growing

1204
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 1: body of scientific evidence. Of course, um and just trying,

1205
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:36,920
Speaker 1: as I said, to make people understand that while this

1206
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:40,519
Speaker 1: activity may not be for everybody. While and everybody will

1207
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:44,559
Speaker 1: be a rancher, not everybody will be a farmer. For

1208
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:47,759
Speaker 1: a group of people in society, this is a way

1209
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:51,479
Speaker 1: for them to take responsibility for the meat they consume,

1210
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:56,639
Speaker 1: and most people in society do consume meat. Um and

1211
01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:01,480
Speaker 1: at the same time demonstrating that this is the largest

1212
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:07,880
Speaker 1: environmentally friendly food procurement system in existence. We do not

1213
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 1: destroy habitat, we defend it. We do not despoil the

1214
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:17,200
Speaker 1: environment we protected, and at the same time we share.

1215
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:23,000
Speaker 1: We have this virtually insane drive to share this wild

1216
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:27,519
Speaker 1: food with friends, family, colleagues and even strangers. As I've

1217
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:31,840
Speaker 1: said in many lectures over many years, none of us

1218
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 1: will go to the grocery store and buy a beefloast

1219
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:39,640
Speaker 1: or a chicken and bring it to our neighbors and

1220
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:42,559
Speaker 1: give it to them. As soon as we harvest the deer,

1221
01:24:43,200 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 1: harvest and elk, harvest wild mushrooms, harvest wild berries, harvest wildfish,

1222
01:24:49,439 --> 01:24:51,200
Speaker 1: the very first thing we want to do is to

1223
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:53,880
Speaker 1: share this. We want to give it to somebody, We

1224
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:56,600
Speaker 1: want to have them for dinner. And when we do

1225
01:24:56,720 --> 01:25:00,479
Speaker 1: share it with them, they're absolutely delighted to sieve it

1226
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:04,000
Speaker 1: and they immediately want to share it. They'll say, oh,

1227
01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:06,639
Speaker 1: thank you. You know, my son is coming to dinner

1228
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 1: tomorrow night, I'm going to cook that for him, or uh,

1229
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:12,120
Speaker 1: you know, my my father and mother would love to

1230
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:14,880
Speaker 1: have that, so I'm going to share this meal with them.

1231
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 1: There is something innately human about the drive to share

1232
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:25,559
Speaker 1: wild harvested food, and we are about to launch a

1233
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 1: major communication effort with the help of now partners, which

1234
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:35,799
Speaker 1: include you know, industry groups such like blophold at Sitka

1235
01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:38,080
Speaker 1: and YETTI groups such as that, as well as with

1236
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:42,080
Speaker 1: state agencies in the data and Florida and Texas, a

1237
01:25:42,120 --> 01:25:46,679
Speaker 1: wide variety of NGOs, while Sheep Foundation, Dallas, Sportsman's Alliance,

1238
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:51,240
Speaker 1: s c I, Houston, I mean a lot of Elk Foundation,

1239
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:54,280
Speaker 1: a lot of NGOs, too many to mention. We're about

1240
01:25:54,320 --> 01:25:58,200
Speaker 1: too soon start to launch the information from this. We

1241
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:01,280
Speaker 1: have built the database. We have an amazing and the

1242
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 1: most knowledgeable database now formed database on all of this,

1243
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:09,040
Speaker 1: and I'm really looking forward to it being a way

1244
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:14,800
Speaker 1: to have comfortable conversations about hunting with people from very,

1245
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:18,840
Speaker 1: very diverse backgrounds. As a medical doctor from the San

1246
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:21,880
Speaker 1: Francisco Bay Area said to me at the end of

1247
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:27,919
Speaker 1: the lecture a couple of weeks ago, she said, Um,

1248
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, there are many people in the San Francisco

1249
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:35,200
Speaker 1: Bay Area who are opposed to hunting, But she said,

1250
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:37,880
Speaker 1: there are a lot more people in the San Francisco

1251
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 1: Bay Area who are fanatical about new culinary experiences, and

1252
01:26:43,439 --> 01:26:46,160
Speaker 1: one of the things they really are intrigued with and

1253
01:26:46,320 --> 01:26:51,680
Speaker 1: interested in are these wild harvested foods. So you know,

1254
01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:55,960
Speaker 1: it's a it's just my attempt to to seek in

1255
01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:59,960
Speaker 1: the middle of all of this debate and a quiet

1256
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 1: space that I know will matter to people. I'm not

1257
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 1: trying to make them hunters. I'm not trying to make

1258
01:27:08,120 --> 01:27:11,000
Speaker 1: them anglers, although I be delighted if they would be

1259
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:14,600
Speaker 1: open to that, just trying to make them understand that

1260
01:27:14,720 --> 01:27:17,759
Speaker 1: this is relevant and the reason is relevant. It's because

1261
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:22,000
Speaker 1: it's about healthy time in nature and the harvest the

1262
01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:26,120
Speaker 1: food of the highest quality that we take responsibility for

1263
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:29,360
Speaker 1: ourselves absolutely well as a hunter. I appreciate you, know,

1264
01:27:29,439 --> 01:27:32,800
Speaker 1: not only your words, which are well spoken, but your

1265
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:36,439
Speaker 1: actions in that regard. I think that's um, the ability

1266
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:39,880
Speaker 1: you have to to articulate these ideas but then also

1267
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:43,160
Speaker 1: help them stand up with this data and these these

1268
01:27:43,200 --> 01:27:47,320
Speaker 1: efforts I think is is um can be revolutionary. And

1269
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:49,800
Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing those and and sharing the rest

1270
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 1: of your story. And I thank you Shane for your time.

1271
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,679
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Pat, it's been a real pleasure.

1272
01:27:55,960 --> 01:28:00,200
Speaker 1: Care of yourself. Thank you. Okay, by life, that was

1273
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 1: a good one. Episode number five in the books. I

1274
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:07,920
Speaker 1: want to thank, of course Mr Shane Mahoney for all

1275
01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:10,360
Speaker 1: that he does and who he is, and for his

1276
01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:13,960
Speaker 1: efforts with the Wild Harvest Initiative and Conservation Visions. If

1277
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:15,320
Speaker 1: you want to learn a little bit more about that,

1278
01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:19,360
Speaker 1: you can go to Conservation Visions dot com. Click on

1279
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 1: Wild Harvest Initiative you can learn more about his efforts there.

1280
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 1: I think those could possibly be industry changing numbers that

1281
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 1: comes out of his study of where our wild meats

1282
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:34,920
Speaker 1: go and why they're important. Thanks again to all of

1283
01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:38,040
Speaker 1: you for listening to episode number five. You can go

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Speaker 1: to the Hunting Collective dot com to check out the

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Speaker 1: other four episodes, including John Dudley, Ryan Callahan, Steve Ronnella,

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Speaker 1: Aubrey Marcus. There's videos there, there are articles there. There's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff at the Hunting Collective dot com.

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Speaker 1: We're also on iTunes and Stitcher. If you'd like this podcast,

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Speaker 1: roll over to iTunes, give to review, subscribe, subscribe, tell

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Speaker 1: all your friends to do the same. For now, that's

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Speaker 1: all we have. We're gonna be joined next week by

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Speaker 1: the one and only Remy Warrant, my good friend and

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Speaker 1: someone you all want to hear from. So thanks again. Bye,