1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:27,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Jack the Ripper is closing in on Polly Nichols. 2 00:00:28,476 --> 00:00:32,156 Speaker 1: He stalks the streets of Whitechapel, passing the same pubs, 3 00:00:32,476 --> 00:00:37,396 Speaker 1: shops and doss houses as her. Soon their paths will cross. 4 00:00:38,596 --> 00:00:42,996 Speaker 1: A common prostitute outselling sex will mean a monster driven 5 00:00:43,036 --> 00:00:50,556 Speaker 1: to murder and mutilate walls. When I embarked my research, 6 00:00:50,916 --> 00:00:52,996 Speaker 1: this was the story I thought I would be telling. 7 00:00:53,516 --> 00:00:57,996 Speaker 1: But as I probed Polly's history, mining archives and scrutinizing documents, 8 00:00:58,356 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: I found loose threads. And the more I pulled at 9 00:01:01,716 --> 00:01:05,556 Speaker 1: those threads, the more the Jack the ripper myth unraveled. 10 00:01:12,396 --> 00:01:16,676 Speaker 1: I'm Halley Rubert, hold, you're listening to Bad Women. The 11 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 1: Ripper retold a series about the real lives of the 12 00:01:20,756 --> 00:01:23,916 Speaker 1: women killed by Jack the Ripper and how we got 13 00:01:23,956 --> 00:01:32,236 Speaker 1: their stories so wrong. One side, money plenty and friends 14 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:42,196 Speaker 1: too by the score. Then fortune smiled upon me. Now 15 00:01:42,636 --> 00:01:58,756 Speaker 1: one pass my time, Aloney and not well Harf sees 16 00:01:58,956 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 1: to lone me. I'm come free, walkout. So far we've 17 00:02:16,796 --> 00:02:20,476 Speaker 1: traced Polly's humble beginnings in the printing district, her failed 18 00:02:20,516 --> 00:02:24,116 Speaker 1: marriage to William Nicholls, and their separation. We followed her 19 00:02:24,156 --> 00:02:26,796 Speaker 1: to the workhouse and working as a maid for a 20 00:02:26,836 --> 00:02:30,556 Speaker 1: well to do couple, the Cowdrey's, a position she left abruptly. 21 00:02:31,116 --> 00:02:34,196 Speaker 1: Polly absconded from the Cowdrey's home with good she could pawn. 22 00:02:34,636 --> 00:02:37,556 Speaker 1: This pocketful of change lightly kept her out of the workhouse. 23 00:02:38,276 --> 00:02:42,036 Speaker 1: By this point it was July eighteen eighty eight. She 24 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:45,716 Speaker 1: landed in Whitechapel, spending a few weeks at Wilmot's, a 25 00:02:45,796 --> 00:02:48,716 Speaker 1: women only doss house, which would have been the safest 26 00:02:48,716 --> 00:02:54,196 Speaker 1: lodgings available to her. Here she shared a room with 27 00:02:54,276 --> 00:02:59,316 Speaker 1: three others, including one Ellen Holland. Polly and Ellen would 28 00:02:59,356 --> 00:03:02,916 Speaker 1: occasionally split the price of a double bed. Ellen was 29 00:03:02,956 --> 00:03:05,596 Speaker 1: the only person who appears to have formed anything like 30 00:03:05,636 --> 00:03:08,316 Speaker 1: a friendship with Polly, and what we know of her 31 00:03:08,356 --> 00:03:13,036 Speaker 1: in the final week, it's largely thanks to Ellen's testimony. Polly, 32 00:03:13,116 --> 00:03:16,876 Speaker 1: she said, was melancholic. At this time. She was drinking, 33 00:03:17,236 --> 00:03:20,316 Speaker 1: but she also kept herself to herself, as though some 34 00:03:20,356 --> 00:03:23,716 Speaker 1: great trouble was weighing on her mind. In the woman 35 00:03:23,716 --> 00:03:27,716 Speaker 1: who slept beside her, Ellen observed a personality folding in 36 00:03:27,796 --> 00:03:35,636 Speaker 1: on itself, private, alienated and grieving. On the night of 37 00:03:35,676 --> 00:03:39,156 Speaker 1: August thirty first, Ellen bumped into Polly on a dark 38 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:43,676 Speaker 1: Whitechapel thoroughfare. It was around twelve thirty am, and Polly 39 00:03:43,756 --> 00:03:47,356 Speaker 1: was intoxicated. She'd spent the evening at a nearby pub, 40 00:03:47,596 --> 00:03:50,476 Speaker 1: The Frying Pan, and she'd drunk away any money for 41 00:03:50,556 --> 00:03:53,596 Speaker 1: a bed at the Doss house. She tried her luck, 42 00:03:53,636 --> 00:03:57,356 Speaker 1: all the same, She'd told Ellen, but the deputy lodging 43 00:03:57,396 --> 00:03:59,916 Speaker 1: housekeeper wasn't in the habit of handing up beds to 44 00:04:00,036 --> 00:04:03,556 Speaker 1: penniless drunks. She had sent her on her way, not 45 00:04:03,756 --> 00:04:06,956 Speaker 1: in shouts. Be off with you, Polly laughed and issued 46 00:04:06,956 --> 00:04:10,796 Speaker 1: a sharp retort, also get my doss money. See what 47 00:04:10,876 --> 00:04:14,716 Speaker 1: Johnny Barney I've got now. Those fourteen words would soon 48 00:04:14,796 --> 00:04:17,116 Speaker 1: take on a life of their own. They would be 49 00:04:17,156 --> 00:04:21,316 Speaker 1: translated into a tacit admission that she was a prostitute 50 00:04:21,596 --> 00:04:27,076 Speaker 1: looking for a paying client. Two hours elapsed and Ellen 51 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:31,756 Speaker 1: encountered Polly again, this time slumped against a wall. Polly, 52 00:04:32,836 --> 00:04:35,556 Speaker 1: is that you. Ellen tried to convince Polly to return 53 00:04:35,596 --> 00:04:37,876 Speaker 1: with her to Wilmot's comeback with me, but she would 54 00:04:37,916 --> 00:04:41,756 Speaker 1: not be persuaded. Polly stated she had made and then 55 00:04:41,876 --> 00:04:45,396 Speaker 1: spent her lodging money three times over that day. It's 56 00:04:45,476 --> 00:04:49,796 Speaker 1: likely she begged for this money. The clock on Whitechapel 57 00:04:49,876 --> 00:04:52,996 Speaker 1: Church was striking half past two when the pair parted. 58 00:04:53,716 --> 00:04:57,836 Speaker 1: Ellen watched her friend sway off into the darkness, unsteady 59 00:04:57,916 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 1: on her feet. Perhaps Polly felt her way through the night, 60 00:05:02,716 --> 00:05:06,996 Speaker 1: leaning on walls in an effort to balance herself. Fingers outstretched, 61 00:05:07,156 --> 00:05:10,596 Speaker 1: she groped for a place that might become bed. She 62 00:05:10,676 --> 00:05:14,436 Speaker 1: passed flat fronted brick cottages, which offered no convenient nooks 63 00:05:14,516 --> 00:05:17,996 Speaker 1: or porches. Then the curb dipped and the wall became 64 00:05:18,036 --> 00:05:22,196 Speaker 1: a gait set slightly back from the road. Perhaps Polly 65 00:05:22,196 --> 00:05:26,476 Speaker 1: slid down to rest. Perhaps her heavy head slumped and 66 00:05:26,596 --> 00:05:35,436 Speaker 1: her eyes eventually shut asleep took over. William Nichols was 67 00:05:35,476 --> 00:05:39,076 Speaker 1: to see his estranged wife one last time. He had 68 00:05:39,156 --> 00:05:42,756 Speaker 1: quickly assembled an outfit for the occasion, a black coat, 69 00:05:42,916 --> 00:05:46,636 Speaker 1: tie and hat. It had been three years since he 70 00:05:46,756 --> 00:05:51,356 Speaker 1: last encountered Polly, and police inspector Frederick Aberleine warned William 71 00:05:51,396 --> 00:05:55,476 Speaker 1: that he might struggle to recognize her. The color visibly 72 00:05:55,556 --> 00:05:58,876 Speaker 1: drained from William's face as the coffin lid was removed. 73 00:06:00,316 --> 00:06:03,676 Speaker 1: The fatal gash across Polly's throat had been stitch closed, 74 00:06:04,676 --> 00:06:07,596 Speaker 1: but her body was still mutilated by the long and 75 00:06:07,876 --> 00:06:10,716 Speaker 1: terrible cuts and flicked did in the moments after her death. 76 00:06:11,836 --> 00:06:14,396 Speaker 1: I forgive you as you are, said William to the 77 00:06:14,436 --> 00:06:17,756 Speaker 1: body of the woman who, at eighteen had once been 78 00:06:17,796 --> 00:06:21,476 Speaker 1: his girlish bride, who had borne six of his children. 79 00:06:22,356 --> 00:06:24,436 Speaker 1: I forgive you an account of what you've been to me. 80 00:06:30,156 --> 00:06:34,716 Speaker 1: The authorities investigating this strange and disturbing killing showed Polly 81 00:06:34,876 --> 00:06:39,156 Speaker 1: less compassion in death than her estranged husband. In their notes, 82 00:06:39,476 --> 00:06:42,956 Speaker 1: the first detectives on the scene wrote definitively that Polly 83 00:06:43,116 --> 00:06:47,196 Speaker 1: was living the life of a prostitute. This baseless assumption 84 00:06:47,276 --> 00:06:51,396 Speaker 1: warped the investigation from that moment on. Initially, just two 85 00:06:51,436 --> 00:06:55,076 Speaker 1: possibilities were put forward. The first, this murder had been 86 00:06:55,116 --> 00:06:59,196 Speaker 1: committed by a gang storting money from prostitutes. The second, 87 00:06:59,556 --> 00:07:02,676 Speaker 1: a lone and crazed prostitute killer was behind this crime. 88 00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:06,476 Speaker 1: Either way, the authorities in the press were convinced of 89 00:07:06,596 --> 00:07:11,356 Speaker 1: one thing. Polly Nichols was selling sex that night. They 90 00:07:11,436 --> 00:07:14,356 Speaker 1: thought that Whitechapel was full of women like Polly, and 91 00:07:14,476 --> 00:07:17,716 Speaker 1: her involvement in this sordid and illegal trade had got 92 00:07:17,716 --> 00:07:21,916 Speaker 1: her killed. This supposition then colored how the evidence was 93 00:07:22,036 --> 00:07:25,836 Speaker 1: viewed and how the witnesses were questioned. It also seemed 94 00:07:25,836 --> 00:07:29,156 Speaker 1: into the press reports on this crime. It is still 95 00:07:29,196 --> 00:07:32,436 Speaker 1: the bedrock of the familiar Jack the Ripper murder story 96 00:07:32,676 --> 00:07:35,716 Speaker 1: and the basis for endless theories about the identity of 97 00:07:35,756 --> 00:07:42,996 Speaker 1: the killer. Trevor Marriott, for instance, believes that a visiting 98 00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:47,356 Speaker 1: German sailor named Carl Fagenbaum is behind these crimes. You 99 00:07:47,476 --> 00:07:51,156 Speaker 1: heard from Trevor in episode one. He's a retired detective 100 00:07:51,276 --> 00:07:55,996 Speaker 1: used to working murder cases and a ripparologist. The London 101 00:07:56,116 --> 00:07:59,796 Speaker 1: docks were very close to Whitechapel, and where you've got docks, 102 00:07:59,796 --> 00:08:03,076 Speaker 1: you've got merchant salman who go ashore while the boat's 103 00:08:03,116 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 1: in dark. And merchant seman are always matched with looking 104 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:12,036 Speaker 1: for prostitutes, and of course Whitechapel was rife with prostitutes. 105 00:08:12,396 --> 00:08:17,396 Speaker 1: Faginborn had apparently confessed to having issues with women. Every 106 00:08:17,436 --> 00:08:20,996 Speaker 1: so often, he had this urge to kill and mutilate women. 107 00:08:21,596 --> 00:08:26,036 Speaker 1: Trevor isn't an expert on Victorian prostitution, but to his 108 00:08:26,116 --> 00:08:30,396 Speaker 1: detective's brain, the pieces fall into place. Faginbonn wanted to 109 00:08:30,396 --> 00:08:35,316 Speaker 1: find a woman to kill. Prostitutes made convenient victims. Prostitutes 110 00:08:35,316 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 1: throng the streets of Whitechapel, and Polly was also in Whitechapel. 111 00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:43,476 Speaker 1: Prostitution is the oldest occupation, isn't it. He's been around 112 00:08:43,516 --> 00:08:48,596 Speaker 1: for many, many years, since time immemorial. And obviously you 113 00:08:48,716 --> 00:08:51,476 Speaker 1: read between the lines. Obviously, when you've got someone like 114 00:08:51,836 --> 00:08:56,476 Speaker 1: Polly Nichols that's wandering around at nighttime, drunk in an 115 00:08:56,516 --> 00:09:00,236 Speaker 1: area that is known for prostitution, you know you can 116 00:09:00,316 --> 00:09:03,676 Speaker 1: draw your own conclusions. Here's where I hit a snag. 117 00:09:04,276 --> 00:09:07,356 Speaker 1: As far as Polly Nichols is concerned. There really is 118 00:09:07,396 --> 00:09:10,476 Speaker 1: no proof of her selling sex. And if this part 119 00:09:10,516 --> 00:09:13,596 Speaker 1: of the familiar Jack the Ripper story is inaccurate, is 120 00:09:13,636 --> 00:09:17,156 Speaker 1: any of it? I get so deeply uncomfortable when people 121 00:09:17,236 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 1: try to say, you know, these women were prostitutes. Julia 122 00:09:21,196 --> 00:09:24,436 Speaker 1: Late is a historian at Birkbeck University of London and 123 00:09:24,516 --> 00:09:27,396 Speaker 1: an expert on the city's sex trade. She says the 124 00:09:27,436 --> 00:09:31,436 Speaker 1: evidence that Polly Nichols was a prostitute is flimsy at best. 125 00:09:31,956 --> 00:09:35,076 Speaker 1: Given the evidence we have. We're just so reliant on 126 00:09:35,116 --> 00:09:38,356 Speaker 1: the voices of male police officers to tell us who 127 00:09:38,436 --> 00:09:42,556 Speaker 1: women were, and that fundamentally rankles me. I think just 128 00:09:42,716 --> 00:09:46,996 Speaker 1: because a police officer wrote something down doesn't make it true. 129 00:09:47,236 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 1: One of the things that always made me think this 130 00:09:50,356 --> 00:09:54,556 Speaker 1: Jack the prostitution narrative doesn't quite add up is that 131 00:09:54,596 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 1: the geography is slightly wrong. Julia says the vast majority 132 00:09:58,756 --> 00:10:01,476 Speaker 1: of women who made their living selling sex would have 133 00:10:01,476 --> 00:10:05,276 Speaker 1: been working not endowned Heel Whitechapel, but in the richer 134 00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:07,956 Speaker 1: west end of London, which is where all the good 135 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:11,636 Speaker 1: customers were. It's where most of the nightlife was. But also, 136 00:10:11,876 --> 00:10:13,796 Speaker 1: even if they were selling sex in the East End, 137 00:10:13,956 --> 00:10:16,916 Speaker 1: they would have been working on busy thoroughfares, not in 138 00:10:16,956 --> 00:10:19,116 Speaker 1: back alleys. And I know that the argument is, oh, 139 00:10:19,196 --> 00:10:21,996 Speaker 1: they took the customer to this back alley, but it's 140 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:25,156 Speaker 1: just too flimsy. It's the very very wee hours of 141 00:10:25,196 --> 00:10:28,236 Speaker 1: the night. Most women who were selling sex would have 142 00:10:28,316 --> 00:10:31,196 Speaker 1: been home by that point. The main night crowd would 143 00:10:31,196 --> 00:10:33,956 Speaker 1: have dissipated. There wouldn't have been much work, There wouldn't 144 00:10:33,956 --> 00:10:36,836 Speaker 1: have been much reason to hang around continuing to solicit. 145 00:10:37,316 --> 00:10:40,796 Speaker 1: What's more, women who were regularly selling sex would have 146 00:10:40,836 --> 00:10:44,156 Speaker 1: had more money than Polly Nichols. They wouldn't be scrounging. 147 00:10:44,196 --> 00:10:46,596 Speaker 1: They turned to sex works so that they didn't need 148 00:10:46,636 --> 00:10:49,796 Speaker 1: to scrounge. The amount of money that even a very 149 00:10:50,196 --> 00:10:53,596 Speaker 1: quote unquote low class prostitute, and I'm using the parlance 150 00:10:53,596 --> 00:10:55,356 Speaker 1: of the time, there the amount of money that they 151 00:10:55,396 --> 00:10:59,396 Speaker 1: could make dwarfed any other occupation they could perform. It's 152 00:10:59,476 --> 00:11:02,636 Speaker 1: very suspicious to me that Polly is having such difficulty 153 00:11:02,716 --> 00:11:05,596 Speaker 1: making ends meet if she's also supposed to be selling 154 00:11:05,636 --> 00:11:08,916 Speaker 1: sex because she just have more money. What about the 155 00:11:09,116 --> 00:11:12,596 Speaker 1: document that Polly was a so called casual prostitute selling 156 00:11:12,636 --> 00:11:15,396 Speaker 1: sex just occasionally to make ends meet or put a 157 00:11:15,476 --> 00:11:18,676 Speaker 1: roof over her own head in hard times. Well, this 158 00:11:18,996 --> 00:11:22,076 Speaker 1: was a concern of police at the time. In mixed 159 00:11:22,156 --> 00:11:26,516 Speaker 1: sex lodging houses, unmarried couples would rent rooms together, a 160 00:11:26,516 --> 00:11:30,876 Speaker 1: phenomenon that the authorities regarded to be unconditionally a form 161 00:11:30,876 --> 00:11:35,636 Speaker 1: of prostitution. What women might do is solicit a client. 162 00:11:36,076 --> 00:11:38,596 Speaker 1: Perhaps I should keep my language more formal, because they 163 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:41,236 Speaker 1: may not have seen it as soliciting a client. They 164 00:11:41,236 --> 00:11:43,636 Speaker 1: were probably far more likely to have seen it as 165 00:11:43,756 --> 00:11:46,116 Speaker 1: meeting a man who will pay for the double room. 166 00:11:46,316 --> 00:11:48,236 Speaker 1: You just need to have sex with them, and then 167 00:11:48,236 --> 00:11:49,956 Speaker 1: you get a nice warm bed to sleep in at 168 00:11:49,956 --> 00:11:52,556 Speaker 1: no cost to yourself. But the thing is, on the 169 00:11:52,676 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 1: night she died, Polly Nichols wasn't in a nice, warm 170 00:11:55,796 --> 00:11:58,236 Speaker 1: bed in a lodging house with a man. And if 171 00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:01,316 Speaker 1: this kind of casual prostitution was the norm for her, 172 00:12:01,716 --> 00:12:04,916 Speaker 1: why did she prefer the single sex accommodation at Wilmot's. 173 00:12:05,436 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 1: Polly nichols staying at an all female lodging house is 174 00:12:08,556 --> 00:12:11,796 Speaker 1: already a very clear sign that she almost certainly was 175 00:12:11,876 --> 00:12:14,916 Speaker 1: not engaging in selling sex. Because women who are selling 176 00:12:14,956 --> 00:12:18,076 Speaker 1: sex in the East End used those lodging houses as 177 00:12:18,116 --> 00:12:25,036 Speaker 1: spaces to perform sex acts, that was their workspace. The 178 00:12:25,156 --> 00:12:35,836 Speaker 1: ripper retold will return shortly. Determining who exactly was and 179 00:12:35,916 --> 00:12:39,076 Speaker 1: who exactly wasn't selling sex in the eighteen eighties can 180 00:12:39,116 --> 00:12:43,356 Speaker 1: be tricky. The term prostitute was applied so broadly so 181 00:12:43,396 --> 00:12:46,796 Speaker 1: as to make any precise assessment of their numbers impossible. 182 00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:51,196 Speaker 1: It was a sweeping label, often used interchangeably with homeless 183 00:12:51,356 --> 00:12:55,116 Speaker 1: or vagrant. Society assumed that women who lived without male 184 00:12:55,156 --> 00:12:58,196 Speaker 1: protection or a roof over their heads would do anything 185 00:12:58,236 --> 00:13:02,716 Speaker 1: for food, drink, or a bed, especially sell sex. The 186 00:13:02,796 --> 00:13:06,556 Speaker 1: eighteen twenty four Vagrancy Act further muddied the Waters. It 187 00:13:06,596 --> 00:13:10,476 Speaker 1: was an Armnibus Act that was used to give police 188 00:13:10,476 --> 00:13:15,116 Speaker 1: powers to control what they thought was proper behavior or 189 00:13:15,116 --> 00:13:18,276 Speaker 1: improper behavior on the street. The law included an ill 190 00:13:18,276 --> 00:13:22,156 Speaker 1: defined clause that brought any prostitute behaving in a riotous 191 00:13:22,156 --> 00:13:26,036 Speaker 1: and disorderly manner within its remit. The police used this 192 00:13:26,076 --> 00:13:29,556 Speaker 1: phrase indiscriminately against any woman on the streets whom they 193 00:13:29,596 --> 00:13:32,956 Speaker 1: wished to move on or arrest. Police case files sometimes 194 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:38,196 Speaker 1: record disorderly prostitutes without actually describing behavior that might have 195 00:13:38,276 --> 00:13:42,356 Speaker 1: warranted such a description. The burden of evidence is completely negated. 196 00:13:42,516 --> 00:13:45,316 Speaker 1: It's basically saying we had her name in a notebook, 197 00:13:45,476 --> 00:13:48,516 Speaker 1: and she was on the street, and we decided that 198 00:13:48,556 --> 00:13:51,796 Speaker 1: she was disorderly, so we used this really quite loose 199 00:13:51,916 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 1: law to either arrest her or find her or move 200 00:13:55,276 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 1: her on. The law was also open to abuse. Women 201 00:13:59,196 --> 00:14:01,916 Speaker 1: did sell sex in Whitechapel in eighteen eighty eight, but 202 00:14:01,996 --> 00:14:05,476 Speaker 1: we also know that the Whitechapel police inflated the scale 203 00:14:05,476 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 1: of the trade to enhance their own reputation for tackling 204 00:14:08,796 --> 00:14:13,076 Speaker 1: crime each division. Whitechapel was considered the most corrupt police 205 00:14:13,076 --> 00:14:16,756 Speaker 1: division in London at the time. They were using prostitution 206 00:14:16,876 --> 00:14:19,796 Speaker 1: arrests all the time to kind of up their numbers, 207 00:14:19,876 --> 00:14:22,876 Speaker 1: as we would say in the present day. The arrest 208 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:27,076 Speaker 1: of Elizabeth Cass offers a great example of this. Cass 209 00:14:27,116 --> 00:14:30,956 Speaker 1: was a dressmaker in London's wealthy West End. One evening, 210 00:14:30,996 --> 00:14:34,396 Speaker 1: after leaving work, she was window shopping and she paused 211 00:14:34,396 --> 00:14:37,836 Speaker 1: to admire a pair of gloves. She came to the 212 00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:43,556 Speaker 1: attention of police Constable Endicott, who claimed he had seen 213 00:14:43,596 --> 00:14:47,116 Speaker 1: her soliciting on the street several times before that evening 214 00:14:47,116 --> 00:14:49,916 Speaker 1: and had written her description down in his handy little 215 00:14:49,916 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 1: police notebook. Under general practice at the time, policeman arrested 216 00:14:54,796 --> 00:14:58,156 Speaker 1: a soliciting prostitute on the third occasion that they saw her, 217 00:14:58,716 --> 00:15:03,436 Speaker 1: providing that she was annoying passers by. According to Endicott, 218 00:15:03,836 --> 00:15:07,236 Speaker 1: he had already seen cast twice. No matter what Elizabeth 219 00:15:07,236 --> 00:15:09,956 Speaker 1: Cass was doing, no matter how she had been labeled, 220 00:15:09,956 --> 00:15:13,316 Speaker 1: accurately or inaccurately, she certainly wasn't annoying anybody. She was 221 00:15:13,356 --> 00:15:16,516 Speaker 1: just standing on the street. So Endicott arrested her. And 222 00:15:16,756 --> 00:15:18,556 Speaker 1: this could have played out the way that it played 223 00:15:18,556 --> 00:15:21,276 Speaker 1: out for hundreds of other women, which is that they 224 00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:24,196 Speaker 1: accepted their fate understood they didn't really have any ground 225 00:15:24,196 --> 00:15:26,676 Speaker 1: to stand on, paid a fine and got out of 226 00:15:26,676 --> 00:15:29,676 Speaker 1: the police court as quickly as possible. But Elizabeth Cass 227 00:15:30,156 --> 00:15:32,836 Speaker 1: played it differently, not least because she had a really 228 00:15:32,876 --> 00:15:37,636 Speaker 1: supportive employer. Cass's employer, a well known dressmaker and female 229 00:15:37,716 --> 00:15:41,396 Speaker 1: business owner, came to her defense. She stormed into the 230 00:15:41,436 --> 00:15:45,276 Speaker 1: police station, claiming that her employee had been wrongfully arrested 231 00:15:45,556 --> 00:15:48,636 Speaker 1: and threatening to call for an investigation into the matter. 232 00:15:48,956 --> 00:15:52,316 Speaker 1: In fact, an investigation was called, and it was found 233 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:56,036 Speaker 1: that PC Endicott had no grounds on which to arrest 234 00:15:56,156 --> 00:16:00,316 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Cass, that he in fact was going to be 235 00:16:00,356 --> 00:16:03,956 Speaker 1: brought up on perjury charges, which she was. He was 236 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:07,316 Speaker 1: found not guilty of perjury, but he was dismissed from 237 00:16:07,356 --> 00:16:10,676 Speaker 1: the police, which is just an incredible moment, I think. 238 00:16:10,916 --> 00:16:14,436 Speaker 1: And in this case, you just see just how fragile 239 00:16:14,476 --> 00:16:19,436 Speaker 1: the definition of prostitute is. You see how thin the 240 00:16:19,556 --> 00:16:23,356 Speaker 1: evidence is, because it's not that the evidence against Elizabeth 241 00:16:23,396 --> 00:16:26,636 Speaker 1: Cass was any thinner than any other woman who had 242 00:16:26,676 --> 00:16:30,156 Speaker 1: been arrested. It wasn't that she was annoying people less. 243 00:16:30,356 --> 00:16:33,756 Speaker 1: It was simply that she called them on it, and 244 00:16:33,956 --> 00:16:38,676 Speaker 1: other women who didn't have the same access to support, didn't. 245 00:16:38,716 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 1: They just pled guilty. So the vast majority of arrests 246 00:16:41,956 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 1: for prostitution proceed and end in a finer imprisonment, not 247 00:16:46,116 --> 00:16:49,716 Speaker 1: because the women are proven to be prostitutes, are proven 248 00:16:49,756 --> 00:16:52,916 Speaker 1: to be soliciting to the annoyance of other people, but 249 00:16:52,996 --> 00:16:55,636 Speaker 1: because they plead guilty because it's the easiest way for 250 00:16:55,676 --> 00:16:58,396 Speaker 1: them to get out of the police court as quickly 251 00:16:58,436 --> 00:17:02,036 Speaker 1: as possible. In the months between the exoneration of Elizabeth 252 00:17:02,076 --> 00:17:05,116 Speaker 1: Cass and the White Chapel murders, arrests of women as 253 00:17:05,236 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 1: common prostitutes plummeted. Constables were told not to use the 254 00:17:09,636 --> 00:17:13,916 Speaker 1: word unless a woman willingly identified herself as a prostitute, 255 00:17:14,116 --> 00:17:17,716 Speaker 1: an order officers clearly ignored when they wrote their reports 256 00:17:17,756 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 1: over the corpse of Polly Nichols. But it was a lull, 257 00:17:21,476 --> 00:17:25,276 Speaker 1: not a change of heart. London's Police commissioner soon said 258 00:17:25,276 --> 00:17:29,156 Speaker 1: even sterner instructions for his officers to arrest women, and 259 00:17:29,196 --> 00:17:32,756 Speaker 1: the courts no longer asked for any corroborating evidence that 260 00:17:32,796 --> 00:17:37,436 Speaker 1: a suspect had caused an annoyance. The policeman's would was 261 00:17:37,556 --> 00:17:41,396 Speaker 1: now enough to convict, And it turns the legislation against 262 00:17:41,436 --> 00:17:45,556 Speaker 1: quote unquote common prostitutes into you're on a police register 263 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:48,716 Speaker 1: as being a prostitute and you were on the street, 264 00:17:49,356 --> 00:17:52,436 Speaker 1: that's the heart of the offense. After eighteen eighty eight 265 00:17:52,476 --> 00:17:56,196 Speaker 1: and so now nothing would protect a stigmatized woman from 266 00:17:56,196 --> 00:17:59,836 Speaker 1: that kind of police attention. The police were also enforcing 267 00:17:59,836 --> 00:18:03,796 Speaker 1: a code of social and moral norms. A woman without 268 00:18:03,836 --> 00:18:06,756 Speaker 1: a house and a family, a woman who lived with 269 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:09,956 Speaker 1: a man outside of marriage, and a woman who was 270 00:18:09,956 --> 00:18:12,916 Speaker 1: a victim of rape were considered one and the same. 271 00:18:13,836 --> 00:18:17,116 Speaker 1: Any woman who had sex outside of marriage under any 272 00:18:17,116 --> 00:18:21,556 Speaker 1: circumstances could be called a whore and a prostitute. And 273 00:18:21,636 --> 00:18:24,356 Speaker 1: I think that's something that's really easy to forget from 274 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:28,236 Speaker 1: our late twentieth early twenty first century perspective. Anybody who 275 00:18:28,236 --> 00:18:30,476 Speaker 1: stepped out of line, any woman who stepped out of line, 276 00:18:30,596 --> 00:18:33,996 Speaker 1: was liable to be labeled a prostitute. So when the 277 00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:36,436 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper murders or what were then called the 278 00:18:36,436 --> 00:18:40,836 Speaker 1: Whitechapel murders started happening, it was very easy to impose 279 00:18:40,916 --> 00:18:45,916 Speaker 1: that narrative they were prostitutes and therefore they were killed 280 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:50,836 Speaker 1: because that's what happens to unrespectable women. That's their trajectory. 281 00:18:50,876 --> 00:18:53,796 Speaker 1: That's their story. This is what you expect to happen 282 00:18:53,836 --> 00:18:56,796 Speaker 1: to a woman who behaves this way. Reading the newspaper 283 00:18:56,796 --> 00:19:00,436 Speaker 1: reports of the coroner's inquest a legal proceeding to determine 284 00:19:00,436 --> 00:19:03,236 Speaker 1: the cause of death, it seems that the police and 285 00:19:03,276 --> 00:19:07,116 Speaker 1: the authorities had a dim view of Paully Nichol's character. 286 00:19:08,316 --> 00:19:12,956 Speaker 1: In open court, Polly's grieving father was asked, was she fast? 287 00:19:13,716 --> 00:19:19,716 Speaker 1: To be fast implies promiscuity or debauchery. No, I never 288 00:19:19,756 --> 00:19:22,436 Speaker 1: heard of anything of that sort. She used to go 289 00:19:22,556 --> 00:19:24,756 Speaker 1: with some young women and men that she knew, but 290 00:19:25,236 --> 00:19:29,436 Speaker 1: I never heard of anything improper. During her testimony, Ellen 291 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:32,076 Speaker 1: Holland was asked if she knew what her former roommate 292 00:19:32,116 --> 00:19:35,836 Speaker 1: did for a living. Ellen claimed she did not. Did 293 00:19:35,836 --> 00:19:40,756 Speaker 1: you consider she was very clean in her habits? Oh? Yes, 294 00:19:41,476 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 1: she was a very clean woman. The idea that Polly 295 00:19:45,036 --> 00:19:48,796 Speaker 1: was both fast and unclean seemed to be confirmed by 296 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:51,716 Speaker 1: her defiant parting words after she had been denied a 297 00:19:51,796 --> 00:19:54,596 Speaker 1: bed at the lodging house. I'll so get my doss money. 298 00:19:55,036 --> 00:19:57,996 Speaker 1: See what Johnny Barney I've got now. These words have 299 00:19:58,076 --> 00:20:02,276 Speaker 1: been used sometimes to hint, sometimes to assert that Polly 300 00:20:02,396 --> 00:20:06,196 Speaker 1: Nichols made money by selling sex. Some interpret her remark 301 00:20:06,276 --> 00:20:08,276 Speaker 1: as a boast that her head gear would make her 302 00:20:08,356 --> 00:20:12,196 Speaker 1: more attractive to potential clients. The police reference to her 303 00:20:12,396 --> 00:20:16,556 Speaker 1: jolly bonnet is opaque if indeed she even uttered those words, 304 00:20:16,956 --> 00:20:19,916 Speaker 1: and there is no guarantee that she did. She could 305 00:20:19,916 --> 00:20:23,436 Speaker 1: have meant any number of things. I think the most 306 00:20:23,476 --> 00:20:26,076 Speaker 1: likely thing she meant is that she was going to 307 00:20:26,156 --> 00:20:31,316 Speaker 1: beg because while society thought there were eighty thousand prostitutes, 308 00:20:31,636 --> 00:20:35,116 Speaker 1: the police estimated there are about eight thousand in London, 309 00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:38,156 Speaker 1: and if you look at the estimated number of beggars, 310 00:20:38,636 --> 00:20:43,396 Speaker 1: it's way higher. So just statistically speaking, it's more likely 311 00:20:43,476 --> 00:20:48,516 Speaker 1: she was referring to panhandling or begging than mercenary sex. 312 00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:52,076 Speaker 1: Polly may equally have been indicating a plan to palm 313 00:20:52,196 --> 00:20:55,156 Speaker 1: the bonnet. We know that the Cowdreyes, the couple for 314 00:20:55,236 --> 00:20:58,196 Speaker 1: whom she briefly worked, had given her a bonnet, and 315 00:20:58,276 --> 00:21:00,716 Speaker 1: that when she absconded from their home, she took this 316 00:21:00,836 --> 00:21:04,956 Speaker 1: with her. For women who had chaotic or unstable living 317 00:21:04,996 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: situations like Polly Nichols, you wore your credit and so, 318 00:21:09,116 --> 00:21:11,196 Speaker 1: and she said, look what a jolly bonnet I have 319 00:21:11,596 --> 00:21:14,236 Speaker 1: she may have been intending to pawnet so that she 320 00:21:14,236 --> 00:21:16,876 Speaker 1: could get toss money, or she may have been referring 321 00:21:16,916 --> 00:21:19,676 Speaker 1: to the fact that she obtains the bonnet through begging 322 00:21:19,716 --> 00:21:22,436 Speaker 1: for it or trading for it, or pawning for it 323 00:21:22,796 --> 00:21:26,556 Speaker 1: on another day. Like so many other details surrounding Polly's 324 00:21:26,556 --> 00:21:30,436 Speaker 1: final hours, the truth behind the fabled Jolly bonnet remark 325 00:21:30,596 --> 00:21:33,436 Speaker 1: is now unknowable, but one hundred and thirty years on, 326 00:21:33,756 --> 00:21:36,116 Speaker 1: it is still cited as proof that Polly was a 327 00:21:36,156 --> 00:21:38,996 Speaker 1: prostitute and killed by a man who bought her time 328 00:21:38,996 --> 00:21:42,516 Speaker 1: and body for a few pennies. The sworn evidence of 329 00:21:42,556 --> 00:21:46,516 Speaker 1: her father and of her friend is totally ignored, But 330 00:21:46,676 --> 00:21:51,156 Speaker 1: julia Our tendency to label women like Polly prostitutes speaks 331 00:21:51,236 --> 00:21:57,196 Speaker 1: volumes like why has the testimony of somebody who knew 332 00:21:57,596 --> 00:22:04,636 Speaker 1: Polly quite well been disregarded in favor of policemen who 333 00:22:04,676 --> 00:22:08,196 Speaker 1: had never seen her before except as a dead body. 334 00:22:08,436 --> 00:22:11,636 Speaker 1: I mean, the only explanation is that we're more comfortable 335 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:15,116 Speaker 1: with this narrative, the narrative of the fallen woman. She 336 00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:17,636 Speaker 1: steps out of line, she has sex out of wedlock, 337 00:22:17,716 --> 00:22:19,916 Speaker 1: perhaps she has a baby out of wedlock. She has 338 00:22:19,956 --> 00:22:23,716 Speaker 1: a difficult relationship with a man, she's abandoned or she 339 00:22:23,796 --> 00:22:27,996 Speaker 1: abandons him, and the narrative is that she's supposed to die, 340 00:22:28,236 --> 00:22:32,236 Speaker 1: either throwing herself in the Thames because she's so distraught 341 00:22:32,476 --> 00:22:35,996 Speaker 1: at how far she's fallen, or she's supposed to die 342 00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:39,116 Speaker 1: of disease, or her body's supposed to be racked by syphilis, 343 00:22:39,516 --> 00:22:42,316 Speaker 1: or she's supposed to be a victim of violence, because 344 00:22:42,436 --> 00:22:46,476 Speaker 1: that's what happens to women like that. Before I delved 345 00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:49,196 Speaker 1: into the archive, I'd assume that the case for Polly 346 00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:52,436 Speaker 1: being a prostitute was iron clad, But as I look 347 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:57,316 Speaker 1: deeper and deeper, firm evidence failed to materialize. In fact, 348 00:22:57,356 --> 00:23:01,916 Speaker 1: other more likely interpretations of her murder presented themselves. But 349 00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:04,836 Speaker 1: sharing my findings with the world put me into conflict 350 00:23:04,916 --> 00:23:08,596 Speaker 1: with people who have made careers and staked their reputations 351 00:23:08,676 --> 00:23:13,396 Speaker 1: on the Ripper being a killer of Wolls. Documentary makers, 352 00:23:13,476 --> 00:23:17,636 Speaker 1: to her guides, authors and self styled ripparologists all start 353 00:23:17,676 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 1: from the same point. Jack the Ripper posed as a 354 00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:24,116 Speaker 1: john who took as prostitute victims to a quiet place 355 00:23:24,236 --> 00:23:27,596 Speaker 1: to slaughter them. My research has picked away at the 356 00:23:27,636 --> 00:23:32,116 Speaker 1: foundation of that myth, undermining the whole edifice, and many 357 00:23:32,236 --> 00:23:36,836 Speaker 1: riparologists aren't happy. Some think I'm a liar, some compare 358 00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:40,916 Speaker 1: me to a Holocaust denier, and almost all simply refuse 359 00:23:41,156 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 1: to listen. I don't think she's dishonest. I'm not going 360 00:23:44,236 --> 00:23:47,436 Speaker 1: to say she's dishonest. All I'm saying is that what 361 00:23:47,636 --> 00:23:50,036 Speaker 1: she has written and why she wrote it as a 362 00:23:50,036 --> 00:23:52,676 Speaker 1: matter for her to live with us. That why she 363 00:23:52,756 --> 00:24:01,316 Speaker 1: has written misleading facts in the book, The Ripper Retold 364 00:24:01,356 --> 00:24:12,076 Speaker 1: will return shortly. Retired police detective Trevor Merritt still thinks 365 00:24:12,196 --> 00:24:16,236 Speaker 1: I'm wrong when we talk about prostitutes. There is overwhelming 366 00:24:16,316 --> 00:24:20,596 Speaker 1: evidence from both official police files and sworn in quest 367 00:24:20,676 --> 00:24:25,716 Speaker 1: testimony from witnesses that these women were prostitutes and it's recorded, 368 00:24:25,756 --> 00:24:29,596 Speaker 1: but she won't accept that fact. I'm the she in 369 00:24:29,716 --> 00:24:34,556 Speaker 1: question here. Trevor's ebook, The Real Truth includes a section 370 00:24:34,636 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 1: that states I've deliberately misinformed my readers and omitted vital facts. 371 00:24:39,916 --> 00:24:42,796 Speaker 1: As Trevor has repeatedly told me on social media. I 372 00:24:42,836 --> 00:24:45,996 Speaker 1: didn't want to engage with him in person, so my producer, 373 00:24:46,036 --> 00:24:48,876 Speaker 1: Alice spoke with him. Holly Nichols, there is still in 374 00:24:48,996 --> 00:24:53,276 Speaker 1: existence in police files details that shows her being recorded 375 00:24:53,316 --> 00:24:56,116 Speaker 1: as a prostitute. So that's the first thing that she 376 00:24:56,556 --> 00:25:00,756 Speaker 1: readily doesn't accept. Now matter how much you fudge it up, 377 00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:04,636 Speaker 1: these women were recorded as being prostitutes, and there was 378 00:25:04,796 --> 00:25:08,796 Speaker 1: enough evidence produced from witnesses to show that they engaged 379 00:25:08,836 --> 00:25:12,676 Speaker 1: in prostitution, albeit perhaps just to survive. But if you're 380 00:25:12,716 --> 00:25:16,076 Speaker 1: selling your body for money, you are by clear definition 381 00:25:16,236 --> 00:25:19,556 Speaker 1: prostituting yourself. So do you think police records can ever 382 00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 1: be wrong? Well, I suppose there is always that argument. 383 00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:27,356 Speaker 1: But why would they record somebody as being a prostitute 384 00:25:27,396 --> 00:25:30,116 Speaker 1: as being wrong? Why would somebody stand up and give 385 00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:35,396 Speaker 1: swan testimony in a court that these women were prostitutes 386 00:25:35,436 --> 00:25:38,676 Speaker 1: and that's how they live from day to day. For Trevor, 387 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:42,076 Speaker 1: my work in the archives, which I've cross referenced with 388 00:25:42,156 --> 00:25:45,636 Speaker 1: what we actually know a Victorian prostitution and police attitudes 389 00:25:45,676 --> 00:25:49,476 Speaker 1: towards it, is invalid Online. He's accused me of playing 390 00:25:49,676 --> 00:25:53,876 Speaker 1: the feminist card. Her book has seemed to attracted a 391 00:25:54,036 --> 00:25:58,436 Speaker 1: large proportion of female readers, and you know, I think 392 00:25:58,436 --> 00:26:01,676 Speaker 1: it's sad that those female readers, no matter what cause 393 00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:05,836 Speaker 1: they want to take up, they've been misled by some 394 00:26:05,876 --> 00:26:09,076 Speaker 1: of the things that Hallie has published in her book 395 00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:12,396 Speaker 1: some of the things which she will not readily acknowledge 396 00:26:12,516 --> 00:26:17,156 Speaker 1: as being misleading, and unfortunately these female readers have placed 397 00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:19,956 Speaker 1: her high on a pedestal. In effect, do you have 398 00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:23,316 Speaker 1: a sense of why women might identify with Halle's work 399 00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:28,836 Speaker 1: or hear things in it that seem valuable. Well, Obviously, 400 00:26:29,036 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 1: as I've said, she's attracted a host of feminist followers 401 00:26:32,556 --> 00:26:35,836 Speaker 1: who constantly thrive on the police that all females have 402 00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:40,716 Speaker 1: been subjected to oppression, hardship, and abuse both past and present. 403 00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:43,636 Speaker 1: So I can only assume that the bookers hit a 404 00:26:43,716 --> 00:26:47,196 Speaker 1: nerve with them and that's what they want to go with. Really, 405 00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:51,956 Speaker 1: from their perspective, Trevor, who remember conducted murder investigations as 406 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:55,356 Speaker 1: a serving detective, has very little sympathy for poly Nichols, 407 00:26:55,716 --> 00:26:58,676 Speaker 1: a woman living a hard life with society stacking the 408 00:26:58,676 --> 00:27:02,636 Speaker 1: odds against her at every turn. For Trevor, poly Nichols 409 00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:06,076 Speaker 1: was the architect of her own demise. They'd fallen on 410 00:27:06,196 --> 00:27:08,996 Speaker 1: hard times a lot of time because of their own doing, 411 00:27:09,756 --> 00:27:14,156 Speaker 1: not because anybody had made them homeless, not because anybody 412 00:27:14,156 --> 00:27:16,876 Speaker 1: had made them poor, not because anybody had made them 413 00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:19,716 Speaker 1: walk the streets at night it was of their own doing, 414 00:27:19,876 --> 00:27:22,996 Speaker 1: because clearly these women in the past, many of them 415 00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:27,796 Speaker 1: had husbands, many of them had partners, and they themselves 416 00:27:27,956 --> 00:27:30,796 Speaker 1: chose to lead the lives that they were living at 417 00:27:30,796 --> 00:27:34,756 Speaker 1: the time. Women like Polly were victims of unfair divorce laws, 418 00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:39,036 Speaker 1: impossible barriers to securing jobs and housing, and subject to 419 00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:42,316 Speaker 1: extreme prejudice if they failed to remain within the tight 420 00:27:42,436 --> 00:27:45,436 Speaker 1: boundaries of what was expected of a wife and mother. 421 00:27:46,076 --> 00:27:49,716 Speaker 1: Trevor boards no truck with any of this. They were 422 00:27:49,716 --> 00:27:51,876 Speaker 1: the ones that chose to leave their husbands, or their 423 00:27:51,956 --> 00:27:55,196 Speaker 1: husbands chose to leave them because of their behavior. There 424 00:27:55,196 --> 00:27:57,996 Speaker 1: are two sides to all of this. And Howe seems 425 00:27:58,036 --> 00:28:01,796 Speaker 1: to want to portray the picture of these poor, unfortunate women. 426 00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:03,996 Speaker 1: But they're poor unfortunate because a lot of the time 427 00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 1: they brought it on themselves, you know, And is there 428 00:28:07,596 --> 00:28:10,836 Speaker 1: any excuse for that. Trevor would really prefer that I 429 00:28:10,916 --> 00:28:14,396 Speaker 1: restricted myself to the subject he thinks is most important 430 00:28:14,796 --> 00:28:18,396 Speaker 1: the identity and motives of Jack the Ripper. Bringing up 431 00:28:18,436 --> 00:28:21,516 Speaker 1: the lives of the women rather annoys him, especially if 432 00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:24,316 Speaker 1: it calls into question his pet theory about the murders. 433 00:28:24,796 --> 00:28:27,396 Speaker 1: You know, I think it's all getting blown up out 434 00:28:27,436 --> 00:28:30,956 Speaker 1: of all proportion. To be fair, I've found that many 435 00:28:30,996 --> 00:28:34,636 Speaker 1: people heartily agree with Trevor. I find their lack of 436 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:38,636 Speaker 1: interest and their lack of curiosity both puzzling and troubling. 437 00:28:39,516 --> 00:28:42,356 Speaker 1: It's not just that they haven't learned from the injustices 438 00:28:42,396 --> 00:28:44,916 Speaker 1: of the past. It's as if they don't want to 439 00:28:44,996 --> 00:28:47,636 Speaker 1: learn from them, and they don't even want to hear 440 00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:50,916 Speaker 1: about them. Trying to get my head around this, I 441 00:28:50,996 --> 00:28:53,236 Speaker 1: came across the work of the New York Times best 442 00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:57,516 Speaker 1: selling author Gillian Lauren. Gillian's writing introduced me to a 443 00:28:57,676 --> 00:29:00,716 Speaker 1: term that has helped me fathom the hostility I faced 444 00:29:00,876 --> 00:29:03,876 Speaker 1: for trying to tell the real stories of the Whitechapel women. 445 00:29:04,676 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 1: That term is the less dead victims who don't attract 446 00:29:08,716 --> 00:29:13,396 Speaker 1: the ssidies, interest or sympathy. So less dead is actually 447 00:29:13,436 --> 00:29:17,476 Speaker 1: not my invention. It was by a criminalist, Stephen Egger, 448 00:29:17,676 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 1: and what it means is that essentially there's priority given 449 00:29:22,476 --> 00:29:26,796 Speaker 1: to human beings. For instance, in the eighties, there were 450 00:29:26,956 --> 00:29:31,276 Speaker 1: seven serial killers in South la and women were turning 451 00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:35,276 Speaker 1: up in dumpsters every morning. The cops would call in 452 00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:39,916 Speaker 1: a homicide as one eighty seven. No humans involved. We 453 00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:42,516 Speaker 1: found her in a dumpster. It's a nobody. We found 454 00:29:42,596 --> 00:29:47,676 Speaker 1: somebody under tires, no humans involved, And we're very often 455 00:29:48,116 --> 00:29:51,636 Speaker 1: categorized as overdoses. I don't think a lot of people 456 00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:54,956 Speaker 1: go and decide to overdose with their skirts over their 457 00:29:54,956 --> 00:29:58,436 Speaker 1: head under a pile of tires. The less Dead applies 458 00:29:58,476 --> 00:30:01,716 Speaker 1: to poll Nichols and the other White Chapel victims, just 459 00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:05,316 Speaker 1: as it applies to some people killed today. The deaths 460 00:30:05,316 --> 00:30:08,796 Speaker 1: may be divided by many decades, but all these victims 461 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:13,276 Speaker 1: united by society's indifference to their plight. It's so easy 462 00:30:13,396 --> 00:30:16,556 Speaker 1: to sort of dismiss women and also assume that you 463 00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 1: know everything about them by saying their prostitutes. Someone's a prostitute, 464 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:23,156 Speaker 1: you know everything about them already. Someone's a drug addict, 465 00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:26,236 Speaker 1: you know everything about them already. You know if somebody's poor, 466 00:30:26,276 --> 00:30:28,716 Speaker 1: you know everything about them already. And the truth is 467 00:30:28,756 --> 00:30:31,636 Speaker 1: that you don't. Jillie and I are doing something very 468 00:30:31,676 --> 00:30:35,356 Speaker 1: similar with our research. In her book and documentary series, 469 00:30:35,676 --> 00:30:38,796 Speaker 1: She's explored the lives of the women murdered by Samuel Little. 470 00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:42,196 Speaker 1: Little claimed to have murdered as many as ninety three 471 00:30:42,276 --> 00:30:45,636 Speaker 1: people in towns and cities all across the United States, 472 00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:51,956 Speaker 1: women of color, marginalized women, prostitutes, addicts, sometimes not. They 473 00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:56,436 Speaker 1: all had such different stories. These women were very much 474 00:30:56,556 --> 00:31:00,076 Speaker 1: the less dead. Their disappearances dating back to the nineteen 475 00:31:00,196 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 1: seventies were often barely investigated, let alone investigated as murders. 476 00:31:06,116 --> 00:31:09,756 Speaker 1: Years later, in prison, Little drue haunting pictures of the 477 00:31:09,796 --> 00:31:13,676 Speaker 1: individuals he said he had killed. The FBI is still 478 00:31:13,716 --> 00:31:18,276 Speaker 1: seeking information to help connect victims with these confessions. Little 479 00:31:18,356 --> 00:31:21,396 Speaker 1: was convicted in twenty fourteen, at the age of seventy four, 480 00:31:21,676 --> 00:31:24,316 Speaker 1: for the murders of three women in the nineteen eighties, 481 00:31:24,796 --> 00:31:30,076 Speaker 1: but throughout his life he was repeatedly charged with theft, fraud, rape, 482 00:31:30,116 --> 00:31:37,756 Speaker 1: and assault. Repeatedly the authorities let him go. They didn't 483 00:31:37,756 --> 00:31:41,436 Speaker 1: try hard, they didn't care. And at the same time 484 00:31:41,916 --> 00:31:46,956 Speaker 1: there were prosecutors and defense attorneys who were putting notes 485 00:31:47,116 --> 00:31:50,676 Speaker 1: in the files saying, I believe this guy is good 486 00:31:50,676 --> 00:31:53,796 Speaker 1: for many murmurs in this So why do you think 487 00:31:53,876 --> 00:31:58,156 Speaker 1: there was this hesitation. I mean, this guy was killing 488 00:31:58,236 --> 00:32:00,996 Speaker 1: and killing and killing, and you know he was caught 489 00:32:01,036 --> 00:32:04,156 Speaker 1: and let go and caught and let go. So is 490 00:32:04,196 --> 00:32:08,676 Speaker 1: it because we believe that, for example, homeless people are expendable, 491 00:32:08,916 --> 00:32:12,116 Speaker 1: that sex workers are expendable, is that it is that 492 00:32:12,156 --> 00:32:17,516 Speaker 1: the reason the white Yale College student who is murdered 493 00:32:17,556 --> 00:32:20,276 Speaker 1: on spring break is the most dead, or the governor's 494 00:32:20,356 --> 00:32:23,076 Speaker 1: daughter is the most dead. It's easy to say, like, 495 00:32:23,276 --> 00:32:28,796 Speaker 1: we have these baton institutional biases against prostitutes, women of color, 496 00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:31,636 Speaker 1: drug addicts, and I can say that all day long, 497 00:32:31,956 --> 00:32:34,596 Speaker 1: and really I think it's about power. They didn't have 498 00:32:34,636 --> 00:32:37,916 Speaker 1: any they didn't have any money, they didn't have any power. 499 00:32:38,316 --> 00:32:41,076 Speaker 1: There are obvious parallels between Little's crimes and the White 500 00:32:41,116 --> 00:32:44,476 Speaker 1: Chapel murders, but talking to Julian, I was struck by 501 00:32:44,516 --> 00:32:47,996 Speaker 1: one detail a court hearing that reminded me of the 502 00:32:48,036 --> 00:32:51,076 Speaker 1: treatment women like Polly would have received an eighteen eighty 503 00:32:51,116 --> 00:32:54,996 Speaker 1: eight when dealing with those in authority. Laylah McClain and 504 00:32:55,196 --> 00:32:59,396 Speaker 1: Hilda Nelson and pascuagal And, Mississippi were both attacked by 505 00:32:59,596 --> 00:33:03,356 Speaker 1: Samuel Little. Eight years after Layla and Hilda escaped his clutches, 506 00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:07,116 Speaker 1: they attended court to testify against him. Hilda was eight 507 00:33:07,156 --> 00:33:11,156 Speaker 1: months pregnant. She took one look sam and she yearnated 508 00:33:11,476 --> 00:33:14,356 Speaker 1: on the floor and they made her clean it up, 509 00:33:14,796 --> 00:33:18,316 Speaker 1: and then they asked them to leave. They didn't even testify. 510 00:33:18,916 --> 00:33:23,676 Speaker 1: Following his conviction, Gillian interviewed Little about his crimes extensively. 511 00:33:24,516 --> 00:33:28,356 Speaker 1: She even elicited new confessions from him. Her focus was 512 00:33:28,396 --> 00:33:31,996 Speaker 1: never on little psychology or motivations, but on the people 513 00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:36,116 Speaker 1: that he harmed and killed. Gillian, herself, as a survivor 514 00:33:36,156 --> 00:33:39,596 Speaker 1: of sexual assault and a violent partner, once attempted to 515 00:33:39,636 --> 00:33:43,116 Speaker 1: strangle her. Now she feels she has a responsibility to 516 00:33:43,116 --> 00:33:47,116 Speaker 1: tell victim's stories. The responsibility is a universal one and 517 00:33:47,156 --> 00:33:49,836 Speaker 1: a larger one, and I will continue to feel a 518 00:33:49,876 --> 00:33:52,996 Speaker 1: responsibility to these victims and a relationship with them for 519 00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:58,676 Speaker 1: the rest of my life. Little's murder victims, overlooked, ignored, ridiculed, 520 00:33:58,716 --> 00:34:02,876 Speaker 1: and religned by society, were raced before they died. Gillian 521 00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:06,516 Speaker 1: tells me, like they were dead already. Small wonder then, 522 00:34:06,596 --> 00:34:09,756 Speaker 1: that when they came to harm at Little's hands, society 523 00:34:09,836 --> 00:34:13,116 Speaker 1: looked the other way. It's an idea that resonates with me. 524 00:34:13,836 --> 00:34:17,916 Speaker 1: Society had killed Polly Nichols before her actual death too. 525 00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:22,396 Speaker 1: Over a hundred years later, we continue to dismiss vulnerable people, 526 00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:26,716 Speaker 1: to treat them as disposable, insisting that Polly Nichols was 527 00:34:26,756 --> 00:34:30,756 Speaker 1: a prostitute is part of this process. It overlooks and 528 00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:35,436 Speaker 1: so erases the complexity of her existence. It effaces her humanity, 529 00:34:35,796 --> 00:34:40,676 Speaker 1: and so makes her vicious murder slightly more palatable. The 530 00:34:40,796 --> 00:34:44,756 Speaker 1: notion that the victims were only prostitutes and so deserving 531 00:34:44,796 --> 00:34:48,196 Speaker 1: of their fate seeks to perpetuate the belief that there 532 00:34:48,236 --> 00:34:53,276 Speaker 1: are good women and bad women, madonnas and whores. It 533 00:34:53,396 --> 00:34:56,996 Speaker 1: suggests that there is an acceptable standard of female behavior, 534 00:34:57,396 --> 00:35:00,196 Speaker 1: and that those who deviate from the standard are fit 535 00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:04,556 Speaker 1: to be punished and unworthy to be mourned. Whenever a 536 00:35:04,596 --> 00:35:07,876 Speaker 1: woman steps out of line and contravenes the feminine norm, 537 00:35:08,036 --> 00:35:12,516 Speaker 1: whether today social media or on the Victorian street, there 538 00:35:12,636 --> 00:35:15,676 Speaker 1: is a task understanding that someone must put her back 539 00:35:15,716 --> 00:35:19,556 Speaker 1: in her place. Will return to this idea again and again, 540 00:35:19,596 --> 00:35:21,636 Speaker 1: as we unpicked the threads that hold the jack the 541 00:35:21,716 --> 00:35:25,716 Speaker 1: Ripper lift together. Only by bringing his victims back to life, 542 00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:29,956 Speaker 1: by permitting them to speak and attempting to understand their experiences, 543 00:35:30,516 --> 00:35:51,396 Speaker 1: can we silence the ripper and what he represents bad women? 544 00:35:51,436 --> 00:35:53,556 Speaker 1: The Ripper were told is brought to you by Pushkin 545 00:35:53,636 --> 00:35:56,716 Speaker 1: Industries and me Hallie Ribbinhold, and is based on my 546 00:35:56,756 --> 00:35:59,876 Speaker 1: book The five. It was produced and co written by 547 00:35:59,916 --> 00:36:02,796 Speaker 1: Ryan Dilley and Alice Fines, with help from Pete Norton. 548 00:36:03,356 --> 00:36:06,716 Speaker 1: Pascal Wise sound designed and mixed the show and composed 549 00:36:06,756 --> 00:36:10,076 Speaker 1: all the original music. You also the voice talents of 550 00:36:10,156 --> 00:36:14,956 Speaker 1: Soul Boyer, Melanie Gutridge, Gemma Saunders, and rufus Wright. The 551 00:36:15,036 --> 00:36:17,516 Speaker 1: show also wouldn't have been possible without the work of 552 00:36:17,636 --> 00:36:23,116 Speaker 1: mil LaBelle, Jacob Weisberg, Jen Guera, Heather Fane, Carlie Migliori, 553 00:36:23,556 --> 00:36:28,396 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Nicole Morano and Daniella Lacan were special thanks 554 00:36:28,436 --> 00:36:31,076 Speaker 1: to my agents Sarah Ballard and Ellie Karen