WEBVTT - My employee lied about a reference 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:05.840 My colleagues. We'll stop commenting on everything. I get my 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.400 assistant racist eyes at people and meeting Why does my 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:10.879 coworker keep taking credit for all my idea? Have any 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.040 wisdom for me? Hi, I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:18.040 Aska Manager Podcast. Right answer questions from listeners about life 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:20.840 at work. Everything from what to say if you're allergic 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.119 to your coworkers perfume to what to do if you 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:28.320 drink too much at the company party. Let's get started, Hi, 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.120 and welcome to the show. If you listened all the 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.400 way to the end of last week's episode, you heard 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:35.320 me say that this week's show will be the final 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:39.040 episode of the Asking Manager Podcast. I will talk more 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.199 towards the end of this episode about why I made 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:44.159 that decision, But first, we have a bunch of interesting 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:49.279 questions from callers to tackle, and here is the first one. Hi, 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.239 Alice and I really enjoy the show. And Uh, I 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.920 wanted to run it scenario by you that happened to 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.320 a friend of mine the other day. He told me 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.400 that one of his direct reports had asked him for 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:06.880 a reference for a part time weekend gig to make 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:11.240 some extra money. He said that this, Uh, this staff 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.240 member was a high performer. In fact, he kind of 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:17.080 used him as being one of the best, and so 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.839 therefore he didn't have any qualms about giving him a reference. 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.240 So fast forward to a few weeks later, and this 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:31.240 same employee is tendering his resignation and it turns out 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.520 that it is a full time job, and my friend 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.080 learns that he was lied to. That staff member lied 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.800 to him about it being a weekend job. My friend 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:48.920 feels betrayed, and he feels shame. He is saying that 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.840 they're now losing one of the best staff members, and 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.800 he has a mind to call back the woman in 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.120 HR the other job that he gave the reference to 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.160 and tell her what happened. What do you think he 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:05.640 should do? Should he call her or should he just 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.360 bite the bullet and take the loss. I'd love to 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:16.360 hear what you say about it. Thanks, great question. So first, no, 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:20.400 he definitely should not call the other employer. It's really 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.360 natural to be disappointed when a great employee leaves, and 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.880 I get that. It's weird to realize that the person 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.520 wasn't fully honest with him about what was going on 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.079 when he asked for the reference. But here's the thing. 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.800 It's generally not safe for people to be completely honest 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.560 with their managers when their job searching. My mail is 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.239 full of letters from people whose managers found out that 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.760 they were job searching, confronted them about it, and then 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.440 pushed them out earlier than they had planned to leave. 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.680 And that is a huge danger for people. And as 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.720 a manager, you've got to understand that people worry about that. 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.880 And even if you, as a manager, know that you 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.519 would never do that, your employees don't necessarily know that. 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:08.040 And really, even if they figure that you probably wouldn't 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.480 penalize them or push them out earlier than they want 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.240 to go, they might not feel like they can risk 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.560 even a tiny chance of that. I mean, this is 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:18.480 people's livelihoods that we're talking about, So the stakes are 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.880 really really high if they trust you and then it 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.040 turns out that they were wrong. So as a manager, 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.200 you've kind of just accept that people won't always feel 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:32.079 comfortable or safe letting you know when they're thinking about leaving. 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.040 It sounds like this employee was being pushed by the 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.040 new employer to get a reference from the current job, 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:40.880 which isn't cool, by the way, because of exactly what 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:43.520 I was just talking about. But some employers will do that, 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.920 they'll insist on talking to your current manager before they'll 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.760 make you an offer. And if that was what happened here, 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:51.920 then this guy was in a really difficult position. You know, 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.840 he obviously didn't feel like he could safely be honest 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:58.120 with her his boss, or he wasn't willing to trust 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:00.840 in that possibility for the reasons we are just talking about, 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:03.520 and so he came up with this cover story about 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.000 it being for a part time job. And it's pretty 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.520 understandable when you look at it like that. But while 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.640 I can understand your friend not being thrilled that he 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.000 was lied to, he's got to look at the bigger 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.040 picture here. You know, the employee did it because he 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.400 didn't feel safe potentially putting his job on the line. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.560 That is understandable. It's not a huge betrayal. Your friends 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:25.839 should understand why he did it, and he should wish 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:30.839 him well. He definitely should not, under any circumstances, contact 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.640 the other employer to report this. That would be just 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.400 incredibly crappy to do, and frankly, he'd probably come off 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:43.120 really strangely to the other employer. Plus there's another audience 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.760 for stuff like this, and that is your friends, other employees. 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:50.280 If the rest of his staff here that he tried 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.599 to sabotage someone's new job, that's going to destroy any 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:56.640 trust that they had in him. I mean, if he's 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:58.800 upset that this guy didn't trust him enough to tell 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.359 him that he was job searching, no one will ever 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.600 tell him anything sensitive again if he does that, So 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.760 he really can't do that. The best thing that he 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.479 can do here is to apologize to the employee if 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.599 he was anything other than gracious when he got his resignation, 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.760 and wish him well and mean it sincerely. Because if 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.760 he wants to be upset with anything here, be upset 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.479 with the system that forces job seekers into this kind 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:28.520 of position. Okay, here is the next call. I work 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.120 at a company where the entry level role requires a 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.680 lot of training to become independent. Typically it's a full 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.120 six months of a senior person's time before they can 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.520 work on their own. Because of this intense amount of training, 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.080 we generally try to weed out people interested in grad 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:47.280 school during the interview process. Despite that effort, I overheard 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.640 one of the newest people on my team say that 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.240 he's studying for the g r E, which tells me 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.880 he's likely trying to get into grad school next year. 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.120 I'm totally okay with people pursuing grad school if that's 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.000 what's best for their career, but given the amount of 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.680 time it takes to train someone for the role, it's 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.200 frustrating to have people leave for grad school only a 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:11.000 year after they start, and this happens quite frequently. I 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.080 think this is partly due to the role not being 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.760 the most glamorous, and also due to the fact that 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.040 the role requires very smart people but doesn't pay that much, 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.359 something which I don't have any control over. My question 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.520 has several parts. Firstly, for this particular person, if we 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.680 talk to him and it turns out he's planning on 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.520 leaving in nine months or less, is it okay to 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:35.640 limit his responsibilities or would that be unethical? It would 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:37.880 make sense to train him on fewer things, so we 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.599 don't spend a lot of time on the more complex 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.760 tasks that he will only use for a short period. However, 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:47.040 that would then of course limit his possibilities for growth, 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.640 and I'm not sure that's technically allowable, And we would also, 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.760 i'm sure, lose any opportunity to convince him it would 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.720 be worthwhile to stay. Secondly, for the future. What are 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.560 some things we can do to stop this situation happening? 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.080 Is it okay to explicitly ask people during the interview 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:06.680 process if they intend to go to grad school and 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.320 tell them we are not interested in candidates planning to 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:11.880 go to grad school in the next two years. In 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.760 a company where I don't have control over the salary, 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.239 is there anything I can do to either hire people 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.239 who intend to stay or to encourage people to stay 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:24.520 instead of going back to school right away. Okay, this 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.400 is tricky. It is absolutely true that there are jobs 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:31.560 where it really doesn't make sense to invest in training 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:33.440 someone if they're going to leave for grad school in 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:35.560 a year or for any other reason in a year. 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:38.280 There are jobs where it really does take like nine 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:41.800 months or longer before you're really comfortable with the work 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.160 and where you know what you're doing. And if it's 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.840 that kind of job, it doesn't make sense to bring 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.160 someone on knowing that they're going to leave before they're 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.280 fully trained and before your investment in them has paid off. 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.080 On the other hand, though, you also can't really require 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.680 people to make rock solid commitments to you if you, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.000 as the employer, aren't willing to do that in return. 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.960 Most employers in the US don't use contracts and can 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.400 let someone go at any time, and so in that context, 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.480 it's not entirely fair to say, we want you to 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:18.720 commit to us for two years, but we're not going 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:22.360 to make a real commitment in return. Now, I realize 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.600 that you're not asking anyone to put anything in writing 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.280 on their side, so it's that's not a perfect comparison. 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.960 But in general, you want to keep in mind that 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.600 in any employment relationship without a contract that spells out 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:38.480 how long both sides are committing for, you've got to 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.440 be okay to some extent with people leaving earlier than 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.680 you would like if that turns out to be what's 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:46.280 best for them. But that doesn't mean that there's nothing 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.960 you can do here. It's reasonable to explain in your 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.720 hiring process that you're looking for people who will hopefully 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:53.640 stay in the role for a minimum of two years, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.640 and you can explain why, and you can also say 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.200 this role tends to attract people were thinking about grad school, 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.040 and so we would ask that if that is your plan, 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.120 we'd ask that you not pursue this particular role because 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:08.960 we really need someone who will be here for at 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.960 least a couple of years. That doesn't mean that it 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.720 won't happen anyway. Some people will agree to that, but 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.280 then their lives will change and plans will change, and 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.559 months in they will realize that they do want to 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.600 apply to grad school now. And you can't totally avoid 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.599 that ever happening. But by saying it explicitly during the 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.200 hiring process, some people will weed themselves out or think 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.040 more carefully about what they're committing to. And then if 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.240 it does turn out that someone has decided to apply 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.319 to grad school while they're still early on with you, 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:39.800 there is nothing wrong with deciding that you're going to 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.120 do what's best for you business wise in terms of 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.520 what projects you give them and how you train them 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.240 and how you invest in them. I would just make 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.000 sure that they are indeed applying, don't rely on the 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.440 rumor mill for this, and also be transparent with them. 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:55.880 Tell them what you're doing so that they don't notice 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.240 that they're being given different projects and draw their own 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.760 conclusions about why. So you could say something like I 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.280 absolutely support you and going to grad school if that's 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:06.800 what's right for you, but I also want to be 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.319 transparent with you that it doesn't make sense for us 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:11.520 to invest the amount of time that we would need 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.080 to invest in training you in X. If your plans 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.360 change and you plan to stay, I would love to 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.600 get you onto that track, but given that we have 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.520 limited resources, it doesn't make sense to invest them in 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.320 training in this right now. So let's focus on Y 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.800 and Z instead. And you asked if that is technically allowable, 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.760 which I think is you asking if it's legal, And yes, 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.960 it is perfectly legal to do that. Let's take a 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:37.959 short break here and then when we come back, we 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:52.120 have a question about fending off unwanted hugs and lots more. Hi, Alison, 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:57.040 my name is Jenna. I was diagnosed with a very 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:01.800 serious health concern back in July. And at the time 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.120 that I was diagnosed UM, I had told several people 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.120 at my work and of course, as it goes, it 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:13.800 went around like wildfire, which I expected, and early on 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:15.959 in my diagnosis people would come up to me at 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.959 my work and hug me. You know, hey, I heard 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.960 I'm sorry to hear this and give me a hug, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.560 and at the time I was uncomfortable with it. But 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.160 I understood that that was what people were going to do. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.760 But now I'm three and a half months down the 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:36.199 road and I'm in treatment for things, and I'm still 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.920 being approached by people who want to hug me. And 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:44.160 I know this is silly. It's definitely not sexual harassment 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.400 or anything like that. So I don't feel like I 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.440 need to go to HR. But I don't know how 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:56.160 to decline a hug from somebody. I know it sounds weird. 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.320 I don't want to be hugged one. I don't wanna, 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.840 you know, I want to avoid contact because of you 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:09.360 know terms, and also it's just okay, I'm ready to 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.199 move on. I don't want this to be what I'm 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:14.600 known for. I don't want it to be the focus 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:19.640 of my work life. How do I make sure that 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:25.680 everyone respects that boundary and doesn't hug me against my will? 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.960 And I don't want it to sound like it's a 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.680 real serious issue, but it is a problem for me. 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:37.360 I don't like it, thank you. It's totally understandable that 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.120 you don't want to be hugged at work all the time, 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.000 especially in the context of sympathy. I mean, sympathy, of course, 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:46.280 can be a lovely thing, but it sounds at this 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.800 point like it's just too much. It's completely reasonable that 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.120 you want to shut down those hugs. It's not silly. 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.200 I mean, it wouldn't be silly even if this weren't 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.400 connected to your illness. If you just were getting a 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.280 lot of unwanted hugs and you wanted them to stop, 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.240 that would be completely legitimate. But then add in on 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.319 top of that that it's sort of keeping you constantly 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.319 in this role as the sick person who's the recipient 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.320 of people's sympathy. And of course that's something that you 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.800 might feel you don't want at work and would prefer 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.360 to shut down. So I don't think you're being silly 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.800 at all. I think there are a few things that 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.840 you can do. One is, when you see someone going 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.560 in for a hug, you can just say, oh, you know, 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.240 I'm really not a hugger, and you can even laugh 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.079 about it a little. You know, people keep trying to 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.080 hug me. It's so kind of them, but it's actually 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.840 my nightmare. That's what I would say, or I probably 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.240 should have said it earlier when everyone started enveloping me 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.800 and hugs all the time. Or you can skip that, 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:42.760 and you can just stick with I'm not a hugger, 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.199 but thank you so much for being so nice, or 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.679 as an alternative, you mentioned that one of the reasons 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:50.840 you don't want to hug is because you're avoiding germs, 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.240 and so you possibly could lean into that and say, oh, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.240 I'm not hugging because of germs, but it's very likely 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.360 that people are going to read that as connected with 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.640 your health can shion, and that might reinforce this exact 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:04.520 thing that you're trying to get them to not have 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:06.800 such a focus on. But if you have like one 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.720 or two really aggressive huggers who you can tell aren't 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.280 going to accept that you just don't like hugging because 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.760 those people are out there, you might try the germ 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:16.880 thing with them and it might be more successful in 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:21.200 shutting them down. But really it's okay to just say, oh, 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.080 I'm not a hugger. And if you're worried about that 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.360 feeling maybe a little chilly, which it shouldn't, but you 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.440 might worry about it, just follow it up with something warm, 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.760 you know, Ask how they're doing, Ask about their new 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.800 puppy or their kid, or how that meeting went yesterday, 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.360 or just anything else that demonstrates that you're taking an 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.960 interest in them, not rejecting them as a person. And 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.760 it might feel a little awkward the first few times, 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.640 but just remind yourself that anyone who is truly kind, 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.520 I really wouldn't want to be forcing unwanted hugs on 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:55.080 someone and making them uncomfortable, So speak up and it 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.520 should be fine. I hope that helps. Okay, here's the 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.200 next call. Hey, Allison. Um So, I have been job 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.800 hunting for over a year while unemployed, and after many, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:10.160 many rejections and a short time temping, I'm finally starting 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.920 to see the pattern. Um So, every place I've gotten 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.680 an interview, I make it to the second or third 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:20.119 round of interviews after one or even two phone interviews 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.480 before hearing no or literally just not hearing anything at all, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.400 which is very frustrating, but I know I shouldn't take personally. 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:33.000 I've honestly lost count, but I'd say, um I've gotten 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:36.600 to this point with probably ten serious perspective positions in 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.480 the last year. In fact, this whole year, I've never 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.480 had just one interview. It's always been multiples, which I 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.120 guess is a good sign. But I've received no feedback 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:49.320 other than other candidates were more qualified. So I wonder 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.280 if I'm just qualified enough to be considered as kind 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.680 of an outlier but not really hirable. Um As I 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.640 often see the same positions I applied for reposted after 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.320 I hear now. So I do my homework, I prepare, 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.280 I practice, I keep fine tuning my resume and my 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:10.880 cover letters. I'm definitely not suffering from overconfidence. In fact, 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.120 I'm worried that I'm starting to give off kind of 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.200 a defeated and depleted vibe to potential employers in that 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:20.040 final round, and that's what's making them pass on me. Um. 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.560 I don't have the money to get certified in something 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.960 or return to school. Um. Should I be aiming slightly 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.960 lower to build experience or should I embrace underemployment and 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.680 start wrestling up more side gigs? Um? I love the 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.880 blog in the show, It's been really helpful to me 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:40.200 on my unemployment search, both with sound advice and heavy 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.120 dose of schatten Ford. And one last thing I'm hoping 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.840 you can weigh in on. So my grandma is convinced 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.960 that I'm not getting a job because I wear my 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.280 hair in a bun like a top knot, and I'm 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.800 a nervous hair player, and I like put it up 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.760 and put it down and fess with it. And I 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.320 feel like having it up is better than me playing 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.200 with it. Um, So I just wanted to get your 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.600 thoughts on that. Thank you well. I do not think 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.080 the issue is your hair. Having your hair up in 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.359 a bun is a super normal hairstyle. It's perfectly professional, 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.159 and in fact, it's so normal and professional that I 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.520 am wondering if it's something different the one and picturing 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.920 you also said top not, So I'm wondering if it's 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:24.040 something more like remember Bam Bam on the Flintstones, where 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:25.880 it's kind of shooting up from the top of her 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.640 head and like a fountain of hair. If it's more 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.679 like that, then yeah, it's gonna be too messy for 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.359 most interviews. And so I would agree with your grandma. 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.320 But if you're getting second and third interviews, I really 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.199 doubt that your hair is the reason that they're not 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.800 hiring you. But if it's your standard bun, then no, 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.199 I mean, that is just nothing to second guess. And 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.000 I want to talk more with your grandma to to 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:49.959 hear what it is that she objects to about it, 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.359 although I probably should not because if she is bothered 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:53.920 by a bun, she's going to be horrified by the 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.480 state of my own hair. Anyway, I don't think your 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.240 hair is the issue. I actually think it sounds like 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.040 you're doing pretty well, even though I know that you're frustrated. 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:05.080 You're getting a lot of interviews and you're getting called back, 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.720 so clearly the problem isn't your resume or your cover 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.040 letter or your overall experience relative to the jobs that 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.560 you're applying for, and because you're getting second and third 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.760 interviews too, I don't think it's something glaring that you're 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.760 doing in the interviews, Like if you were terrible at 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:26.360 interviewing or came across really oddly, or we're offending your 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.520 interviewers in some way, you wouldn't be getting asked back 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.479 to those second and third interviews. I mean, maybe one 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.640 or two companies would be really open minded and give 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.520 you another shot, But this has happened with ten different 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.600 companies in the last year, So I just don't think 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.320 it's that. I think you're probably fine, and you're interviewing fine, 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.480 and you're just having bad luck. Someone else is stronger 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.360 and beats you out, or you're just not the exact 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.159 right match that they're looking for. But you know, if 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.639 I'm on a third interview with a candidate, they're pretty 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.040 damn strong, especially relative to the rest of the candidate 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.200 pool for the position. I'm not interviewing people just to 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:04.160 waste my time. Or there's they like you and they 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.320 see strengths in you, and that is why they're calling 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.119 you back. If it were just one or two companies, 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.679 maybe we could come up with some alternate explanation. But 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.600 with ten no, I just I don't think so. So 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:18.080 you said that you're worried that you're giving off a 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:22.120 defeated vibe by the last interview, and I wonder if 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.080 you really are feeling that way on final interviews, because 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.080 if you are, then yes, that could be showing or 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.800 it could just be affecting your energy or like your 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.439 effect or the way you come across. And I know 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.240 it's really hard to control that if you're feeling that way, 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.200 but definitely definitely pay a lot of attention to that. 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.879 One other thing that you could try is contacting any 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.800 recent interviewers who you felt you had pretty good rapport 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.280 with and ask if they can give you any insight 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:50.600 into how you could be a stronger candidate for similar 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:54.080 jobs in the future. Not for them, but for similar jobs, 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.080 because sometimes people are more likely to give feedback when 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.800 they don't feel like they're leading you to think, Oh, 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:01.440 if I changed this one thing, then the next time 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.320 I apply with this person, they'll hire me. You could 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.560 even say something like, you know, to be candid with you, 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:08.880 I've been getting to the finalist stages for a bunch 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.040 of jobs like this, and I'm wondering if there's something 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.240 that I'm inadvertently doing or not doing that might be 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.160 getting in my way. And I'd be so grateful if 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:18.600 you were willing to take a minute and give me 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:22.000 any insider or advice that you might have. Do that 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:24.240 via email, not a phone call, because you don't want 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:25.719 to put people on the spot. But this is a 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.679 totally okay thing to ask. I have candidates asked me 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.320 this all the time. I don't always give them a 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:35.560 super useful answer because sometimes there really isn't any answer 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:37.480 other than you know, you were good, but it was 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.840 really competitive and someone else was stronger. But it's still 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.879 worth asking. And even what I just said, even that 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.480 is sometimes useful to hear, and especially with the jobs 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.000 where they rejected you but are still advertising and so 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.400 they don't seem to have filled it yet in that case, 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:54.440 like it's it's not just that someone else was better. 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:58.080 It might be especially interesting if you can get feedback 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.600 from them about those But you know, sometimes it really 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.000