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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B. Wilson

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Speaker 1: and I'm Holly fry Uh. This week on the show,

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Speaker 1: we talked about the south Sea Bubble after a two

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Speaker 1: year procrastination slash resource delay on my part. That worked

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Speaker 1: out in my favor because I really liked the resources

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Speaker 1: I found on the second attempt more than on the

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Speaker 1: first attempt. I feel like any time I put something off,

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Speaker 1: the resulting episode always comes out better, whether it's because

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Speaker 1: resources have arisen or of just like in the background,

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Speaker 1: my brain has been kind of creeping around the topic

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Speaker 1: and processing it and thinking about it in ways. So

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you waited two years. Yeah, I am too.

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Speaker 1: I don't uh. There are a couple of disciplines. There

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Speaker 1: is writing meant for a more general audience that I

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Speaker 1: can find very accessible and I can wrap my head

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Speaker 1: around the language that they use in their framing. But

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Speaker 1: I have occasionally found myself in something that is really

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Speaker 1: written for within that discipline and I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what you are talking about. One of them is economics.

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Speaker 1: There were a couple of older not older, I mean

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Speaker 1: older as of twenty nineteen or early when I was

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Speaker 1: looking at this where I was kind of like, I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you're saying. Weirdly, Another one, sociology.

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Speaker 1: There have been a couple of times when I have

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Speaker 1: found a sociology paper that was about the subject that

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Speaker 1: I was trying to research, and I tried to read

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Speaker 1: it and was like, there's just a whole vocabulary here

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Speaker 1: that that you know, haven't taken sociology one oh one

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Speaker 1: in college as part of my general education requirement. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know, and I don't these are

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Speaker 1: concepts their words for concepts. I don't have any of

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Speaker 1: this framework. And then I thought, I second guessed myself.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, am I just a mess? And so I

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Speaker 1: asked my friend who's a history teacher, and was like,

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Speaker 1: has this ever happened to you? And she said yes,

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Speaker 1: I have seriously considered like taking a couple of classes

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Speaker 1: because there's often overlap between history and sociology and I

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Speaker 1: will get into deep sociology weeds and not know what's

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Speaker 1: going on. So I'm glad I was able to find

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Speaker 1: some things where I knew what was going on. Um.

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Speaker 1: I also kept thinking about stuff like beanie babies, uh,

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Speaker 1: and like whatever nifty new thing people have going on

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Speaker 1: that I've gloamed onto you about trying to invest in

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Speaker 1: going to make a bunch of money real fast, But

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Speaker 1: it's really a lot more like a Ponzi scheme. Thought

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Speaker 1: about doing a Ponzi episode, Maybe do that later, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean the trick right, here's the thing. There are

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Speaker 1: people that make a lot of money really fast in

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Speaker 1: those schemes, but they're usually people that had a lot

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Speaker 1: of money to begin with, Like they're just augmenting the

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Speaker 1: predict list wealth and the people that actually could really

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Speaker 1: use a financial bump usually get the short end of

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Speaker 1: the stick. Yeah. Well, and that was the case with

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Speaker 1: the south Sea bubble to a lot of the people

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Speaker 1: who were the loudest and the most outraged, we're either

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Speaker 1: people whose losses were not real money that they ever had,

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Speaker 1: that it was the money they didn't get because they

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Speaker 1: didn't sell at the right time, So the price had

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Speaker 1: gone from roughly where they bought it back to roughly

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Speaker 1: where they bought it, and they just note did not

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Speaker 1: get that tenfold increase. They saw it mad And you know,

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Speaker 1: I've it's not like I have a giant investing portfolio,

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Speaker 1: but I have been in positions where I had an

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Speaker 1: employee stock purchase program or something. Uh, and I've sort

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Speaker 1: of seen, well, this used to be worth this many dollars,

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Speaker 1: but now it's worth way fewer dollars um. At one

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Speaker 1: point earlier in my career, Uh, we got like I

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Speaker 1: got shares is like part of my compensation um. And

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Speaker 1: then they were worth less than they had been worth

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Speaker 1: when they were given to me as part of my conversation,

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Speaker 1: And I was like, this is it's weird. I don't

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Speaker 1: really appreciate that at all. But then the other thing

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Speaker 1: about the people who were the loudest about their losses

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Speaker 1: in the Saucia company, a lot of them were people

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Speaker 1: who were already rich and so, yes, they had lost

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Speaker 1: a lot of money and that would suck, but they

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Speaker 1: were still rich and they still had a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: right their their livelihood was in no way in danger. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that was not the case for everyone. Yeah. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the the ordinary middle class folks who lost

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Speaker 1: their whole savings or who subscribed at the wrong time

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Speaker 1: and then we're on the hook for something they couldn't

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Speaker 1: afford anymore. Like that was like, I think, a more

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Speaker 1: immediate problem in a lot of lives than the person

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Speaker 1: who was really rich and lost a lot of rich

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Speaker 1: people money and still had a lot of rich people money,

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Speaker 1: But we're mad about the money they didn't have any more. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I found myself thinking a lot about the housing bubble

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Speaker 1: and the whole invest in a home. We will loan you,

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Speaker 1: we will make a loan work for you. It's gonna

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Speaker 1: be fine. It's gonna be fine. And it wasn't. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know people that bought their homes really at the

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Speaker 1: peak of that, like pre collapse housing bubble. I bought

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Speaker 1: a home not at the peak but nearer to it,

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Speaker 1: but as a short sale, and I thought I was

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Speaker 1: getting an amazing deal. But then I owed way more

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Speaker 1: money then the house was worth, and I that was

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Speaker 1: not great. Um, it was not something that affected me

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Speaker 1: until I tried to sell the house and was like, uh,

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Speaker 1: I need more money to pay off the bank then

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Speaker 1: I can get if I sell this, and that was

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Speaker 1: a giant mess. Yeah, that's no fun at all. I

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Speaker 1: definitely have a lot of friends who were in that

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Speaker 1: same boat where it was like, oh, my house is

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Speaker 1: worth half of what I owe on it. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: not a funny place. Well, and especially when other stuff

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Speaker 1: happened as a result, and in this at the at

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Speaker 1: the same time as the housing bubble collapse, so like

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Speaker 1: you know, people who then also lost their jobs and

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Speaker 1: like couldn't pay couldn't pay their astronomical mortgage payments anymore,

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Speaker 1: and then also couldn't get out from under their house

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Speaker 1: because you know, they owed a lot more money on

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Speaker 1: it than they could get if they sold it. It's bad,

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Speaker 1: bad scene all around. Yeah, not good bubbles. Um. I

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Speaker 1: did not realize that the word bubble to refer to

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Speaker 1: such an event went back so far. That seemed like

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Speaker 1: a very twentieth century jargon thing to me. But now, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there there. I found several sources that said this was

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Speaker 1: the first use of bubble, but you know, Oxford English

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Speaker 1: Dictionary disagrees with the people who put that in their art. Um,

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Speaker 1: it does seem like it became a lot more popular terminology. Um,

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Speaker 1: we didn't mention it, but people also could still remember

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Speaker 1: the tulipmania bubble. That was not long enough ago in

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Speaker 1: the past that it had fallen out of public memory

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Speaker 1: or anything. So some of the uh, some of the artwork,

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Speaker 1: like the satirical artwork about the south Sea Bubble was

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Speaker 1: just Tulipmania Bubble with the names changed, um, which I

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Speaker 1: found pretty hilarious. I feel like we should mention the

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Speaker 1: irate making the whole thing of like, no, no, you dumb,

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Speaker 1: dumb people shouldn't be playing with money. What do you

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Speaker 1: think you're doing? Yea, Yeah, there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: really sexist commentary about women. It was women's fault. Women

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Speaker 1: should not have been investing. Women don't know how to invest.

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Speaker 1: Women made this problem. And then again, the whole thing

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Speaker 1: was underpinned by a slave trading venture. Yeah. Um mm hmmm.

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Speaker 1: That's all I've got is growling. Yeah. There were a

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Speaker 1: couple of articles that I read along the way where

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know, this was slavery, right, Like

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Speaker 1: this was It was not like they were shipping I

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Speaker 1: don't know, locally grown wool. There might have been some

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Speaker 1: locally grown wool, but that was not the major part

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Speaker 1: of what the Sucie Company was trading. M HM. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: bubbles get rich quick schemes real frustrating. Yeah, we talked

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Speaker 1: about Moms mably this week, Yes we did. I've enjoyed

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Speaker 1: watching so much of her comedy as YouTube videos, listening

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Speaker 1: to some audio clips from various albums, stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: and and boy did I spend a lot of time

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Speaker 1: just trying to find out for sure what happened to

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Speaker 1: all of her children. I became way more invested in

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Speaker 1: this then then I typically do on unanswered questions on

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Speaker 1: the show. And there was a lot of like trying

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Speaker 1: to search through vital records from Transylvania County, North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: which is where Brevard is, and Bunkum County, North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: which is where Asheville is, and then also just having

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Speaker 1: questions about how carefully either of those communities were recording

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Speaker 1: births of black children during these years. And it frustrated

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Speaker 1: me uh not to be able to find some more

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Speaker 1: definitive answers um because it's like it whatever is the answer,

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Speaker 1: clearly traumatic situation to either have had uh two children

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Speaker 1: who were placed for adoption seemingly not really with with

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Speaker 1: her having a lot of agency over that and never

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Speaker 1: seeing they begin, or whether she had four total children

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Speaker 1: and two of them disappeared when the people whose care

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Speaker 1: they had been left in disappeared and she didn't get

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Speaker 1: to reunite with them. Until adults. Like all of the

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Speaker 1: possible scenarios, I'm like, all of these have layers that

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Speaker 1: are tragic and upsetting in less tragic parts of her story.

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Speaker 1: How did she get on your radar? Do you remember

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Speaker 1: the first time you saw Moms? Maybe? So the first

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Speaker 1: thing that I really remember is that Marvelous Mrs masl episode. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's totally possible because some of the old variety shows

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Speaker 1: that she was on used to be syndicated on Nick

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Speaker 1: at Night, or little clips of them would run on

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Speaker 1: things like Comedy Central. When I was a kid, we

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Speaker 1: were not early adopters for cable at all. I'm not

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Speaker 1: even sure when cable first became an option out in

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Speaker 1: the country where we lived. So like, it's totally possible

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Speaker 1: that I saw comedy clips and they just did not

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Speaker 1: stick in my memory until I watched the Marvelous Mrs

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Speaker 1: Masiel and was like, I'm pretty sure want disikes playing

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Speaker 1: a real person here, and I need to go find

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Speaker 1: out who that is because I am intrigued. How about you,

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Speaker 1: Carol Burnett, I remember it distinctly. I remember seeing her

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Speaker 1: on Carol Burnett when I was tiny. I'm still pretty

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Speaker 1: sure it was a rerun but like that was before

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Speaker 1: things like Nick and Knight existed, and then also seeing

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Speaker 1: her on Flip Wilson, Oh yeah, okay, because I am

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Speaker 1: one of those people. Again, I was a small child

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Speaker 1: who thought it was a man in drag huh. And

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Speaker 1: I remember my parents being like, I don't think that is,

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Speaker 1: because I was like, well, the guy, and they were like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think it is, but may I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Like they were very like, I don't know what you're

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Speaker 1: asking about. Kids well, and enough adults had the same

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Speaker 1: question that. When I was really just pouring through old

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Speaker 1: newspaper articles trying to find as much about her as

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Speaker 1: I could, I found multiple you know, asked the columnist

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Speaker 1: columns where people were like his mom's maybe a man

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Speaker 1: or a woman. And then I didn't make this point

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Speaker 1: in the in the episode, but maybe I should have.

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Speaker 1: I think, even in addition to the fact that I

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Speaker 1: think she would have been more famous among white people

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Speaker 1: had she been white, that's obvious, I also think there

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Speaker 1: would have been a biography of her written either while

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Speaker 1: she was still living or shortly after her death, when

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Speaker 1: a lot of these questions would have been easier to

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Speaker 1: research because there would have been more people alive who

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Speaker 1: would still knew the answers, and like there's no like

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Speaker 1: there's not a Mom's maybe papers collection in existence that

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Speaker 1: at least that I was able to track down, and

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Speaker 1: other people of her influence, especially if they were white

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Speaker 1: and especially if they were men, did have all of that.

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Speaker 1: So Yeah, I'm glad she's getting like tiny bits of

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Speaker 1: more recognition sort of trickling out through things like that

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Speaker 1: the play from the eighties that we talked about. And

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Speaker 1: although I think that might be the source of the

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Speaker 1: thing about her mother being killed shortly after her father's death,

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Speaker 1: Like I feel like some of the things that are

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Speaker 1: multiple conflicting accounts have been picked up from there, um,

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Speaker 1: but it's like it's hard to trace because a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have printed things and they're reporting without saying

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Speaker 1: where they where they learned it. Yeah, I'm literally just

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Speaker 1: thinking about her and laughing. Yeah, you and I both

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Speaker 1: through the thing where we like just tell our spouse

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Speaker 1: the whole thing that we've been researching. And so we

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Speaker 1: were eating dinner and I was talking about moms Mayblee

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Speaker 1: and Patrick got out his phone and started looking at

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Speaker 1: Mom's Mayblee videos during dinner. Uh, and she had one,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not I think uh, the double entendre filled

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Speaker 1: things that we actually said in the episode, I feel

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Speaker 1: like probably would just fly over the heads of younger listeners.

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Speaker 1: And if you have had to have awkward questions with

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Speaker 1: your children this week, sorry um so, but I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to repeat this particular one. She she gave this

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Speaker 1: a joke that was just delivered with amazing timing and

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Speaker 1: that like there was a pause, and Patrick went, that

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Speaker 1: was a very dirty joke. Yeah, listen, I love a

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Speaker 1: filthy joke. So yeah, I love how she used her

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Speaker 1: platform for activism without skipping a beat. Yeah, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: for sure. And also her like social satire stand up

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Speaker 1: and her very pointed social commentary and critique like that

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Speaker 1: genre of stand up. She was really your front runner

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Speaker 1: in like one of the first people who was really

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Speaker 1: doing that and making use of this very disarming character

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Speaker 1: to be able to say things that other people probably

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Speaker 1: couldn't get away with. Um One thing that I didn't

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Speaker 1: get into in the episode because I just couldn't figure

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Speaker 1: out how to how to work it in is that

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Speaker 1: there's there's been a lot of conversation about her her

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Speaker 1: sexuality and her like her presentation of her gender and

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And I read one paper that

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Speaker 1: traced several jokes about gay men in some of her

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Speaker 1: comedy albums, and the person who wrote the paper was

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Speaker 1: making the argument that like, this was clearly her laughing

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Speaker 1: with people and not at them. But in reading the jokes,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I don't, I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: have the same opinion on that read um, and it

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Speaker 1: could go either away. I don't really know the answer,

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Speaker 1: but um, it is clear that she had some jokes

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Speaker 1: in her set that involved game in in the era

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Speaker 1: before like before Stonewall, before there was this uh like

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Speaker 1: as much cultural visibility. But still I was like, I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I were listening to that joke

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Speaker 1: and it were about me, how I would feel about that? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I um that, I feel like that's always

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Speaker 1: the caveat anytime we talked about any performer that is

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Speaker 1: uh from an earlier time. I imagine in today's world

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Speaker 1: she would be making different jokes, specifically, would feel differently

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Speaker 1: about the issue and be making yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean I that makes it very very interesting that um

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Speaker 1: Wanda Sykes, who is and out lesbian woman, was comfortable

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Speaker 1: playing her. That's not the same thing as being you know,

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Speaker 1: the entire LGBTQ community is not a monolith, and that's

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Speaker 1: not the same as how a gay man might feel about.

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Speaker 1: Sure that material, but it does offer a little bit

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Speaker 1: of an insight into how, even through the modern lens,

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Speaker 1: she's perceived m um and people have have interpreted her

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Speaker 1: life in a several different ways. There are people who

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Speaker 1: have described her as lesbian and people who have described

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Speaker 1: her as bisexual, and wherever you want to fall in

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Speaker 1: that interpretation, it's clear that off stage she was just

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Speaker 1: living her life as who she wanted to be as

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Speaker 1: an adult. So, uh, you know, she's clearly is a

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Speaker 1: life that with all of the line blurring with gender

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Speaker 1: and sexuality, is like in the queer history umbrella, where

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Speaker 1: within that umbrella people want to specifically go like, I

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Speaker 1: feel like there's room for interpretation. Oh yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I feel like that is really the paper I would

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Speaker 1: love to read if there were better records. Is someone

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Speaker 1: examining her, whether it was very consciously done or just

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Speaker 1: seemed natural to her, was not a pointed thing. Her

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Speaker 1: kind of rejection of the gender binary and just being like, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm fluid. I'm I am who I am, I'm I'm Moms.

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Speaker 1: I love the nickname Mr. Moms. It's so sweet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's just kind of an interesting, an interesting piece

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Speaker 1: that I wish we had more actual details of. Yeah, yeah, um.

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Speaker 1: And even a lot of the folks that were not everyone.

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Speaker 1: Some some of the folks that were interviewed in that

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Speaker 1: in that documentary who gave those insights are no longer

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Speaker 1: no longer with us. So Uh, Anyway, I have said

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Speaker 1: this twelve times now. I think I love I loved

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Speaker 1: having a reason to stop what I was doing and

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Speaker 1: watch stand up on YouTube. Maybe we all laugh as

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Speaker 1: much as possible can. I'll just also just like live

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Speaker 1: our own lives how we want to do it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: If you want to send us an email or a

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Speaker 1: history podcast asked that I heart radio dot com. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back tomorrow with Saturday Classic and Monday with a

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Speaker 1: brand new episode. We hope whatever is going on for

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Speaker 1: you this weekend that it goes well and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: to you again soon. Stuff you Missed in History Class

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Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts

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Speaker 1: from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,