Speaker 1: What happens this week at the Conclave.
Speaker 2: The ritual, the politics, the players, and the spiritual power.
Speaker 2: We'll get into all of it on this edition of
Speaker 2: The Conclave Crews. I want to welcome you to this
Speaker 2: Arroyo Grande series, The Conclave Crew Vatican Edition, Episode three.
Speaker 1: This episode is brought to.
Speaker 2: You by our friends at Taylor fragone Capital Management, Faith,
Speaker 2: Family and Finances. Visit them at Taylor Fragon dot com.
Speaker 1: Let's convene the crew.
Speaker 2: Father Gerald Murray, Canon Lawyer and the Archdiocese of New
Speaker 2: York and Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic
Speaker 2: Thing dot org.
Speaker 1: And I'm Raymond Arroyo.
Speaker 2: Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart, Apples,
Speaker 2: Spotify and YouTube at Arroyo Grande Show.
Speaker 1: And like this episode, we are all about.
Speaker 2: To watch a fascinating ritual unfold before our eyes the
Speaker 2: election of the two hundred and sixty seventh Pope. The
Speaker 2: Conclave begins May seventh, and as we've been saying more
Speaker 2: as we said in an earlier episode, all of this
Speaker 2: is a collection of traditions and practices that were picked
Speaker 2: up over two thousand years. Some historians claim that Saint
Speaker 2: Peter chose his own successors, a whole string of them,
Speaker 2: and that was the pattern for a while. Then Roman
Speaker 2: clergy elected a few popes. Soon emperors got involved, and finally,
Speaker 2: in ten fifty nine, Pope Nicholas the second issued an
Speaker 2: election decree giving the College of Cardinals.
Speaker 1: The power to elect the pope.
Speaker 2: Father, tell me why this conclave process is so important?
Speaker 2: And I guess more importantly, why is the world paying
Speaker 2: so much attention to an event to elect a figure
Speaker 2: they barely understand.
Speaker 3: It's important, Raymond, Because, of course, the Pope of the
Speaker 3: Catholic Church, the Roman Pontiff, as he's called, is the
Speaker 3: head of a religion which has a worldwide scope. We
Speaker 3: have what a billion and a quarter members of the
Speaker 3: church throughout the world, and the Pope is viewed by
Speaker 3: many non Catholics as one of the premier spokesmen of
Speaker 3: moral authorities, speaking on behalf of human rights and of
Speaker 3: religious liberty and of the things associated with the higher
Speaker 3: aspirations of humanity. So that's, you know, it's of great
Speaker 3: interest to people. Now. The traditions and the like. Everybody
Speaker 3: loves traditions that involve you know, Renaissance palaces, and secret
Speaker 3: oaths and people locked in rooms making decisions. But all
Speaker 3: of that has a reason, And of course the election
Speaker 3: of the pope by the cardinals goes back to who
Speaker 3: the cardinals originally were. They were clergy of the Church
Speaker 3: of Rome and the surrounding dioceses. So in fact, in
Speaker 3: the College of Cardinals there are three grades that the
Speaker 3: Cardinal Deacons, the cardinal priests, and the cardinal bishops. So
Speaker 3: in time they stopped selecting simply Roman clergy. They started
Speaker 3: naming bishops from important diocese throughout the world. That's why
Speaker 3: we have the international flavor of the College of Cardinals.
Speaker 3: But it truly reflects a I would say, an ingenious
Speaker 3: way of filling the gap in the life of the
Speaker 3: church when the pope dies, because since he's a supreme authority,
Speaker 3: who's going to appoint a successor?
Speaker 2: Well, Bob, this is the most incredible thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: the wisdom of the Church and the collected wisdom in
Speaker 2: the rituals and the patterns and the protocols. It not
Speaker 2: only has meaning, it was put there for a good reason,
Speaker 2: a good human reason that they learned over time. Gregory
Speaker 2: the Tenth in twelve seventy four tried to rein in
Speaker 2: the long election times, because some of these elections were
Speaker 2: running into the years. He was the one who formalized
Speaker 2: Gregory the tenth the rules and insisted that cardinals assemble
Speaker 2: ten days after the death of the pope, with no
Speaker 2: private rooms and no outside communication with the key Compkave.
Speaker 2: Why is that formality observed today? Why is it important
Speaker 2: to sequester these gardens?
Speaker 4: Well, the most obvious answer is that there are plenty
Speaker 4: of people who would like to influence who will become
Speaker 4: the next pope. Because it's a funny thing about the
Speaker 4: papacy that, on the one hand, we know that Catholicism
Speaker 4: is the central religion of the West, and therefore it
Speaker 4: kind of underpins everything that the West stands for. That's good,
Speaker 4: But on the other hand, the catholteris as much hated
Speaker 4: throughout the world at the same time, so people pay
Speaker 4: attention to who is going to be the leader of
Speaker 4: this As father rightly says, more than a billion people
Speaker 4: all around the globe look to go into any of
Speaker 4: the Renaissance palaces here in Rome. It's one thing, they're beautiful.
Speaker 4: We're a room ourselves that have some beautiful artwork, but
Speaker 4: to go into the Cystine Chapel and see paintings by Michaelangelo.
Speaker 4: As we were saying the other day, not only the creation,
Speaker 4: but the whole history of Old and New Testaments, the
Speaker 4: last judgment against the Wall. Pope John Paul the second
Speaker 4: wrote a poem about how that that painting in the
Speaker 4: sense would point out to the cardinal electors who which
Speaker 4: select his successor. And so we have not only in
Speaker 4: conceptual terms or canonical terms, but even in those kind
Speaker 4: of deep ways that art and spirituality appeal to us,
Speaker 4: even in the ways we can't explain somehow that exerts
Speaker 4: a power through the papacy.
Speaker 1: No, it's it's beautiful to behold.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's one of the richest events, and it's
Speaker 2: filled with pageantry, it's filled with history, it's filled with art.
Speaker 1: And it's unmatchable. Marty Grass can't touch it.
Speaker 2: You know, there's really no celebration in the world that
Speaker 2: comes close to touching its ancient power.
Speaker 1: And that's rooted in.
Speaker 2: The spirit and in the words of Jesus Christ and
Speaker 2: the rock that is Peter, whom they are electing the
Speaker 2: successor to. Now. Earlier this week, all of the staff
Speaker 2: surrounding the conclave, and you think only the cardinals go in,
Speaker 2: and if you saw conclave, you probably think it's just
Speaker 2: a couple of nuns and the cardinals.
Speaker 1: That's not true. They are bus drivers, they're a.
Speaker 2: Priest hearing confessions by the way of the cardinals, the
Speaker 2: assistant to the comer Lango who's running the entire conclave,
Speaker 2: elevator operators, the hotel staff where they're staying. All of
Speaker 2: those people swore an oath of secrecy, and that forbids
Speaker 2: any recording device being used here, and it's a threat
Speaker 2: of excommunication if you violate that, if you violate the secrecy,
Speaker 2: or if you record anything.
Speaker 1: Father. This secrecy is a big deal.
Speaker 3: Why it's a big deal because the Catholic Church wants
Speaker 3: the cardinals who act to act solely in the interests
Speaker 3: of the church, and it wants it to be a
Speaker 3: singular act that's conducted and then when the pope is elected,
Speaker 3: it should never appear that the pope got to be
Speaker 3: pope as a result of any kind of backhand dealings
Speaker 3: of compromises between cardinals and the like, because yeah, if
Speaker 3: people knew that they could report, then they might take
Speaker 3: great success and say, well, you know the reason he's pope,
Speaker 3: I got in the votes, that kind of thing, and
Speaker 3: I'm going to use that, you know, to have moral
Speaker 3: suasion over him for the rest of his pontificate. In addition,
Speaker 3: you know, the Catholic Church treats this as a moment
Speaker 3: of prayer. You know, the cardinals go in there. They
Speaker 3: when they leave the Poline Chapel, which is a chapel
Speaker 3: in the Vatican Palace, they assemble. They process into the
Speaker 3: assisting chapel, chanting the Litany of the Saints. They're asking
Speaker 3: for the help of the saints. And when they get
Speaker 3: into the chapel, they hear a sermon from a cleric,
Speaker 3: they swear an oath to carry out their duties, and
Speaker 3: then they remain silent during the voting. So it's a
Speaker 3: very prayerful moment. So we don't want this to turn
Speaker 3: into a you know, I can't have my tape recorder
Speaker 3: in here, but I'm certainly scribbling all my notes, and
Speaker 3: I'm going to tell everybody what really happened. No, what
Speaker 3: happened is in that room, with the help of the
Speaker 3: holies spirit and the intelligent, thoughtful decision making going on
Speaker 3: by the cardinals.
Speaker 2: Well, and right now I'm told British government Secret service
Speaker 2: folks have come in to sweep the entire perimeter and
Speaker 2: the Cistine Chapel. That's who's doing the sweeping here, to
Speaker 2: make sure there are no listening devices or recording devices
Speaker 2: anywhere around. No one's even allowed and I was stunned
Speaker 2: to see this. No one is even allowed among the
Speaker 2: staff to approach the cardinal electors once the conclave begins,
Speaker 2: so even when dinner's being served or they're getting on
Speaker 2: and off the bus, they can have no real contact
Speaker 2: with them.
Speaker 1: Let's go through the movements.
Speaker 2: Of this conclave process and what people can expect to see.
Speaker 1: Father.
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, following the Mass in the morning of
Speaker 2: the conclave, the cardinals will process into that Pauline Chapel,
Speaker 2: then to the Cistine Chapel, which we will see. We're
Speaker 2: going to see all of this, that procession and each
Speaker 2: cardinals swearing their oath in the Sistine Chapel. Then Italian
Speaker 2: Archbishop Diegi will stand at the door and yell la
Speaker 2: conte omnes everyone out, and that seals the conclave.
Speaker 1: That's the beginning of the Solemn Conclave.
Speaker 2: The cardinals now take their places, and the voting begins
Speaker 2: at a secret ballot, just one on that first day.
Speaker 1: One ballot that first day. Why and Bob.
Speaker 2: Tell me, tell me about the two thirds majority that's
Speaker 2: needed to win an election.
Speaker 4: Right, Well, look, they're going to have a mass tomorrow,
Speaker 4: which is Thursday the seventh, and then they're will process
Speaker 4: in and they'll be sealed in there later in the day.
Speaker 4: I think at four o'clock is when they actually are
Speaker 4: going to enter in finally into the Assistine Chapel, and
Speaker 4: there's going to be one ballot. Now, when I think
Speaker 4: about this, I wonder, why not start the day early
Speaker 4: and you get things moving along. But I think maybe
Speaker 4: that's just a kind of a you know, testing the waters.
Speaker 4: There's going to be one ballot at the end of
Speaker 4: the day, and about seven o'clock in the evening, if
Speaker 4: there's not a two thirds and plus one majority, basically
Speaker 4: that there will the black smoke will come up the
Speaker 4: chimney and then they will get back and be transmitted
Speaker 4: by bus back to the Kasa Santa Marta. And now
Speaker 4: this is another element that you're going to see on
Speaker 4: your TV screens because where the Holy Father, where Pope
Speaker 4: Francis was living the Cossack Santa Market Martha, which is
Speaker 4: called often called a guest house, was deliberately built because
Speaker 4: I believe it was John Paul who decided that the
Speaker 4: cardinals living inside the Sistine Chapel it was just undignified.
Speaker 4: It was it was unpracticed, impractical. So they get transferred
Speaker 4: back and forth by buses from one side of the
Speaker 4: Vatican basically to the other. But that two thirds majority
Speaker 4: is there to make sure that there's a relatively large
Speaker 4: majority that are going to agree on who is going
Speaker 4: to be the next Pope. You could kind of think
Speaker 4: of it as sort of a filibuster, the way the
Speaker 4: American Senate thinks about it, that large decisions that have
Speaker 4: to be made can't just be made by fIF you
Speaker 4: really want to draw it and so that everybody, no
Speaker 4: one absolutely gets the figure that they want, but they
Speaker 4: there is at least enough consensus that most of the
Speaker 4: major interests are represented.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: Father during that vote, as they come forward to vote,
Speaker 2: each man writes the name of his choice for pope,
Speaker 2: and the ballot in Latin reads I elect as Supreme Pontiff.
Speaker 2: And then they stand before Michael Angelo's last Judgment and
Speaker 2: they say I call as my witness Christ, the Lord
Speaker 2: who will be my judge, that my vote is given
Speaker 2: to the one who, before God I think should be elected.
Speaker 2: And then they drop their ballot and they earn, and
Speaker 2: then the votes are counted. Do you think they have
Speaker 2: a list of potential candidates when they go into the conclave, Father,
Speaker 2: or at least in their minds.
Speaker 3: Yes. I think each cardinal knows, of course, who they
Speaker 3: want to vote for first, and that's going to be
Speaker 3: done on the first ballot. Now, it's said that often
Speaker 3: cardinals will vote for someone who they know will never
Speaker 3: get elected, but they do it out of esteem. Because
Speaker 3: the way the voting is done is that everyone writes
Speaker 3: the name on the ballot. Then they come up. It's
Speaker 3: by order of seniority. They hold the ballot up in
Speaker 3: their hands so that everyone can see it. Then they
Speaker 3: deposit it into the urn so that everyone can see it,
Speaker 3: because of course, what they want to avoid is someone
Speaker 3: putting it in their pocket and then pulling out three
Speaker 3: ballots with three names, you know, the same name three
Speaker 3: times to kind of like give an advantage to their
Speaker 3: like Chicago, Well this is you know, lgbl LJB LBJ
Speaker 3: might not have gotten elected if he was running in
Speaker 3: the College of Cardinals. But leave that aside. What we
Speaker 3: can say is, though they get up, they repeat the
Speaker 3: words that you said, and they place it into the urn.
Speaker 3: This is a sacred election. It's this is an election
Speaker 3: in which they're trying to accomplish not simply their own will,
Speaker 3: but what they consider to be pleasing to God, that
Speaker 3: in fact they've decided on the best candidate.
Speaker 2: A cardinal recently told us that he had five lists,
Speaker 2: you know, a list of five candidates when he went
Speaker 2: into the Conclave last time. And I know there are
Speaker 2: blocks that have formed around a certain candidate or pair
Speaker 2: of candidates. So the question is do they move for
Speaker 2: those candidates in the first vote to show their force,
Speaker 2: or do we just see a dribbling of votes toward that.
Speaker 1: Candidate as this goes on.
Speaker 2: Now, for those who saw Conclave the movie, one of
Speaker 2: the things they got right. They didn't get much right,
Speaker 2: but one of the things they got right was the
Speaker 2: stringing of the ballots. After the vote is callied by
Speaker 2: three scrutiners, then confirmed by three revisors, they actually confirmed
Speaker 2: the vote. Then the vote is read out loud so
Speaker 2: that the cardinals can keep score as they go. Once
Speaker 2: they go through all of the ballots, the ballots are
Speaker 2: strung together and then burned in the oven of the
Speaker 2: Sistine Chapel, and that emits either the black smoke for
Speaker 2: no Pope or white smoke for the man who hit
Speaker 2: two thirds and eighty nine votes in this election. Bob,
Speaker 2: these cardinals, we've been talking about this the whole time.
Speaker 2: They don't know each other. They keep complaining to us
Speaker 2: that they don't know each other. Do you think that
Speaker 2: could portend a long conclave? There are reports of the
Speaker 2: Italians or even split.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that we never know, But I think
Speaker 4: that on the whole, the evidence kind of points to
Speaker 4: the fact that it will be a long conclave relative
Speaker 4: to recent conclicts. And by saying that, we ought to
Speaker 4: say that most recent popes have been elected in the
Speaker 4: first couple of days, So we mean by long is
Speaker 4: going to be a little bit longer than that. I
Speaker 4: mean there are provisions for if it goes even to
Speaker 4: twelve or thirteen days, and then you know, you can
Speaker 4: change the way the things are done. There could be
Speaker 4: pauses along the way, but I don't anticipate that it's
Speaker 4: going to go quite that long. I wouldn't worry the
Speaker 4: way I see some commentators saying that it would give
Speaker 4: the impression that the church doesn't know what it wants
Speaker 4: to do if things go, say three or four days
Speaker 4: or five days. I think that this is an important
Speaker 4: decision where a lot of us recognize that there's a
Speaker 4: kind of turning point, not only in the Church but
Speaker 4: in the world, and a lot of things that are
Speaker 4: happening that weren't around the last time in two thirteen.
Speaker 4: So I'm perfectly happy if they take their time. It'll
Speaker 4: be a bit frustrating, but let's hope at the end
Speaker 4: you get it right.
Speaker 1: Father. There's only one vote on that first day.
Speaker 2: On the second day of conclave, there are two votes
Speaker 2: in the morning, followed by a puff of smoke. Then
Speaker 2: there are two more votes in the afternoon, and another
Speaker 2: puff of smoke around seven o'clock. I have to admit
Speaker 2: I always find it hard. I found it hard since
Speaker 2: you know twenty what it was a two thousand and five.
Speaker 2: It was impossible to discern the white from the black smoke.
Speaker 2: And the truth is a lot of this conclave has
Speaker 2: already finished, hasn't It isn't the die already cast before
Speaker 2: they walk into the Sistine Chapel due to the meetings
Speaker 2: and the events and the talking they've been having before
Speaker 2: the conclave.
Speaker 3: Well, I'll answer the smoke question first. Yeah, they use
Speaker 3: chemicals to try and get the white smoke, and sometimes
Speaker 3: I not try. But then if it's the white smoke, certainly,
Speaker 3: shortly thereafter, the Vatican starts ringing the bells of Saint Peter's,
Speaker 3: So that's your if there's a question about the smoke,
Speaker 3: the bells will cons hermit. Now is everything cast in stone?
Speaker 3: I'll disagree with our host with a smile by saying
Speaker 3: some things are some things aren't. Because, of course, if
Speaker 3: your favorite candidate is not going too well in the voting,
Speaker 3: you have to decide what point do I switch and
Speaker 3: who do I switch to? Because you may see because
Speaker 3: each each ballot you hear how many people were voted in.
Speaker 3: You can the count has taken. Each cardinal has a
Speaker 3: scribble pad and they can write notes down. So if
Speaker 3: they see, well, my number three guy is, you know,
Speaker 3: nowhere to be seen. My number five guy, amazingly is
Speaker 3: in the second place, so I'm going to switch to him.
Speaker 3: So there is some things that happen, and perhaps I'll
Speaker 3: say this with all the cardinals that really don't know
Speaker 3: who the other ones are because they come from the peripheries.
Speaker 3: And somebody was saying the other day, for some cardinals,
Speaker 3: this is the second time they've been to Rome in
Speaker 3: their life, you know, because they were named and never
Speaker 3: expected to be a cardinal. That in that case, those
Speaker 3: cardinals might say, well, I never had this cardinal in mind,
Speaker 3: but he's getting a lot of votes. Each ballot's going up,
Speaker 3: I'm going to vote for him. So no, the die
Speaker 3: isn't cast. And that's one reason why. Of course, as
Speaker 3: Bob says, if it goes long, this indicates that the
Speaker 3: church is trying to figure out the cardinals are trying
Speaker 3: to figure out which man is the best to go for,
Speaker 3: even though in the beginnings people didn't really think he
Speaker 3: was the one who was going to get it.
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Speaker 2: the second put in place a rule that after three
Speaker 2: days of voting, that would be Friday, there's one day
Speaker 2: day of pause for prayer and conversation on Saturday.
Speaker 1: Is that a full day?
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm hearing conflicted things. Some have told me
Speaker 2: it may be just the morning session. I don't know.
Speaker 4: I would think that probably the people who are running
Speaker 4: the conclave have to make that determination, and maybe the
Speaker 4: cardinals themselves. I talk with people outside of the Conclave
Speaker 4: and the general congregations and I tell them that I'm exhausted,
Speaker 4: and they tell me their fright. And you know, everyone,
Speaker 4: this is such an emotional and consequential point in the
Speaker 4: history of the church that I would not be surprised
Speaker 4: if they took the whole day. But look, if they
Speaker 4: just feel like they need to get away out of
Speaker 4: that room and relax for a few minutes, that would
Speaker 4: be okay too. But it's just one day at the maximum,
Speaker 4: and they'll be back, I guess on Sunday.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's discuss some news before we get to what
Speaker 2: happens when a pope is elected, which I'll tell you
Speaker 2: about in a moment. Today, it was reported that Cardinal
Speaker 2: Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras left in a huff ran
Speaker 2: out of the conclave. He was apparently trying to press
Speaker 2: Latin Americans to vote for Cardinal Robert Prevost, someone we
Speaker 2: discussed the other day on our previous episode. He's head
Speaker 2: of the bishop's diecaster. What do you make of that?
Speaker 1: Father? How can we interpret that?
Speaker 2: He apparently is quoted as saying, we've seen too many
Speaker 2: turncoats away from Pope Francis.
Speaker 3: Well, interesting, now he fled the General Congregation. I guess
Speaker 3: you met rather than the concress. We'll just make that
Speaker 3: precision because they haven't gone in yet.
Speaker 1: He can't vote anyways, tool.
Speaker 3: Exactly second, he's over eighty. For him to make that
Speaker 3: kind of comment indicates that he thinks that the cardinals
Speaker 3: owe a duty to fall in line behind Pope Francis's
Speaker 3: vision of the church, to which I say, maybe, maybe not.
Speaker 3: You know, there were more than one vision of how
Speaker 3: the church should go. We lived for twenty three years
Speaker 3: with Pope John Paul the Second, another eight years with Benedict.
Speaker 3: You know, in the church, the theological position taken by
Speaker 3: different popes varies, so saying should be the position that
Speaker 3: cardinals take. So I would say that Cardinal Maradiaga's upsetness
Speaker 3: reflects a lack of understanding of what's going on here.
Speaker 3: This is not a political campaign in which you say,
Speaker 3: you know, hey, if you're from Kansas, you got to
Speaker 3: vote from all the guys from Kansas. No, this is
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church, and you're you're not representing your region
Speaker 3: in the profoundest sense. You're serving God in a role
Speaker 3: of great importance, representing the entire church in a certain way.
Speaker 3: So I would say that's what's going on here.
Speaker 1: Bob.
Speaker 2: What do you make of Cardinal Walter Casper, who's quoted
Speaker 2: as saying, I'm convinced we will continue along the Brigolio line.
Speaker 2: I have spoken to many cardinals, and the church cannot
Speaker 2: allow itself to backtrack your reaction.
Speaker 4: Well, sure, the church can allow itself to backtrack if
Speaker 4: it finds it it's gone off on a tangent and
Speaker 4: it needs to be where the church needs to be.
Speaker 4: I'm kind of puzzled. I don't know that I trust
Speaker 4: this report entirely about Cardinal Maradiaga. I don't trust Cardinal
Speaker 4: Maradiaga entirely either. And it's interesting to think what did
Speaker 4: he do. Did he really pull all of the cardinals
Speaker 4: from Latin America or did he just get a strong
Speaker 4: reaction from.
Speaker 3: Some of them.
Speaker 4: Is it only about Provost? Is it also about others
Speaker 4: who we perceive to be in the in the so
Speaker 4: called in the line of Pope Francis, Because, as Father
Speaker 4: rightly says, this is not Democrats and Republicans where everybody
Speaker 4: is sort of whipped into place by the leaders of
Speaker 4: the party. You know, we talked, for example, about Cardinal
Speaker 4: Arborellius of Sweet the other day, who seems to be
Speaker 4: a very orthodox, prayerful man, but he's also pro immigration,
Speaker 4: which seems to divide him between two different parts of
Speaker 4: the Francis legacy. So you can't expect there to be
Speaker 4: kind of party plane. And the fact that somebody would
Speaker 4: claim that there are too many turncoats, I mean, I mean,
Speaker 4: what is this? You know, are they going to be
Speaker 4: executed because they they've been unfaithful to their vow?
Speaker 1: Don't give them any ideas, Bob, but.
Speaker 4: Just some all of this up. I think it's a
Speaker 4: much more Fathers right, It's a much more complicated thing
Speaker 4: where a cardinal who's an authentic person trying to discern
Speaker 4: what's right for the church is going to have multiple
Speaker 4: considerations and it's not going to be am I going
Speaker 4: to follow this full line or that full line. This
Speaker 4: is a new moment. Some things will stay the same,
Speaker 4: and we will also be turning the page on other things.
Speaker 2: Father, and then Bob, I want to want you to
Speaker 2: comment on this new report of Cardinal Togley. The report
Speaker 2: is that he has a gambling problem and apparently gambling debt.
Speaker 2: I'm always I'm always a little dubious about these stories
Speaker 2: because they pop up in the eleventh hour, right before
Speaker 2: the conflict.
Speaker 1: But Father, your reaction, and then I'll go to Bob.
Speaker 3: Yeah, reading that notice in the the New Compass, Richard
Speaker 3: Kasholi is a serious man. He's the editor of a
Speaker 3: very important website, the Comments on the Catholic Church here
Speaker 3: in Italy and beyond. Uh. He publishes it. He's got evidence,
Speaker 3: he's got you know, backed up. It's not just one person.
Speaker 3: So if it's the case that Cardinal Togli has a
Speaker 3: gambling debt, you know that's a serious concern because you
Speaker 3: know who's the debt to who's the holder of the debt?
Speaker 3: How is that going to be cleared? H What does
Speaker 3: that imply for the fact that he might be influenced
Speaker 3: by people with whom he's been dealing. You know, the
Speaker 3: gambling debt is supposed to be in Far East and Macau,
Speaker 3: which is under the communist Chinese control. So it's it's
Speaker 3: it's a serious report and I think now is the
Speaker 3: right time for Cardinal Tagli to come beforeward and either
Speaker 3: deny or explain what this whether this report is accurate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, the last minute politicking is amazing. I mean,
Speaker 1: there was a group of.
Speaker 2: Alleged young people who issued an open letter pleading for
Speaker 2: a more inclusive church, a more welcoming church, a continuation
Speaker 2: of Francis's thrust, and of course it was created by
Speaker 2: and packaged by Pox Christie, which is a left of
Speaker 2: center Catholic group. Tell me the impact of that, if any,
Speaker 2: And what do you think of the Toaglay report.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean all these reports tend to have a
Speaker 4: big impact on people who wanted to have a big impact.
Speaker 4: I mean it's notorious here in Italy that cardinals have
Speaker 4: the channels that they leak to their favorite journalists, they
Speaker 4: put ideas out. I mean, just a few days ago
Speaker 4: we heard, for example, about Cardinal Paroline's apparent panic attack
Speaker 4: or blood pressure crisis, and some of the Italian papers
Speaker 4: that I was reading said this was put out from
Speaker 4: Anglo Saxon sources, and so they were trying. You know,
Speaker 4: I would not pay too too much attention this Togglass story, though,
Speaker 4: I mean, I think we've all heard about this from
Speaker 4: credible sources, and I knew at least one source that
Speaker 4: did not publish it because they couldn't confirm it yet.
Speaker 4: I know Richard Carshole quite well. I respect him very
Speaker 4: much as a journalist. And the fact that they came
Speaker 4: forward and said that there were five sources that they
Speaker 4: had to confirm this, and oh, we're hearing several hundred
Speaker 4: thousand dollars of his Communist Chinese is not a good
Speaker 4: foot forward for someone about to become pope. But we'll
Speaker 4: see it. I suppose.
Speaker 2: Back to the process of the conclave, which I did
Speaker 2: promise when we started. Once a man secured the two
Speaker 2: thirds vote of the College of Cardinals, they ask him,
Speaker 2: will you accept your canonical election?
Speaker 1: Is Supreme Pontiff? Do we know or do you know, father,
Speaker 1: have anybody refused? Has anyone ever refused the office?
Speaker 3: That's a good question, and I don't know the answer,
Speaker 3: But it's canonically very important because the way canon law
Speaker 3: is written, the fact that he gets the majority the
Speaker 3: votes does not make him the pope. He has to
Speaker 3: accept it. So therefore, if he were to say no,
Speaker 3: he's not being he's not at fault, he's not being disloyal,
Speaker 3: he's not being lacking trust in God. You could see
Speaker 3: someone getting elected who knows, for instance, that he has
Speaker 3: a medical condition that he's never spoken in publicly that
Speaker 3: could you know, seriously shorten his life. You could know
Speaker 3: that there were stories of things that may now be
Speaker 3: revealed that would you know, hurt him or other people
Speaker 3: in ways that were not necessary, Or he might simply
Speaker 3: say I'm not up to this job. You know, the
Speaker 3: fact that you become a cardinalist, there's no you know,
Speaker 3: vetting of people become cardinals in the sense of, well,
Speaker 3: this guy make a good pope. He got elected. Some
Speaker 3: don't you know, possess let's say, knowledge, experience, training and
Speaker 3: the like, which would you know, ordinarily be required for
Speaker 3: someone who's going to head a major institution. You know,
Speaker 3: they're much better at the local leadership of the church.
Speaker 3: So they might say, no, I enjoy being Bishop of Xville.
Speaker 3: I don't think I could carry it out. So that's it.
Speaker 3: Once you accept, then you're the pope. Then that's it.
Speaker 2: Follow through comes, yeah, Well, once the new pope accepts
Speaker 2: that job, they're asked, and this I've always found fascinating,
Speaker 2: by what name would you wish to be called? Now,
Speaker 2: that's a tradition. I looked it up today because I
Speaker 2: really didn't know. It's a tradition that goes back to
Speaker 2: five p thirty three. Before that time, all the popes
Speaker 2: use their baptismal names, so you'd be Pope Bob and
Speaker 2: Pope Jerry.
Speaker 1: I'd be Pope Raymond.
Speaker 2: But in five point thirty three a priest name Mercurius
Speaker 2: was elected pope, and since he was named after a
Speaker 2: pagan Roman god, he decided to choose the name and
Speaker 2: take the name John the Second, after his predecessor, and
Speaker 2: that tradition stuck a great example of how we've picked
Speaker 2: up these bits and pieces of the tradition, the ritual,
Speaker 2: the process of selecting a pope, and then the papacy
Speaker 2: itself those chosen names tell us a lot about these men, though,
Speaker 2: don't they.
Speaker 4: Bob, Yeah, I mean, we know from just this recent
Speaker 4: case of Francis that that name had never been chosen
Speaker 4: by anyone before. And it's kind of a paradoxical name
Speaker 4: to choose, because on the one hand, every Catholic I
Speaker 4: think Revere's Saint Francis VISSIZI. It's just because he's he's
Speaker 4: just such an amazing human being. And if you don't
Speaker 4: know about him and you're listening to this, go out
Speaker 4: and read into what he was like. But on the
Speaker 4: other hand, to take on that name is also to
Speaker 4: take on a big inheritance, you know, And so it'll
Speaker 4: be interesting to see what the next pope decides to
Speaker 4: do with his name. Of course, John Paul the Second.
Speaker 4: I was living in Italy the year that John Paul
Speaker 4: the Second was elected, and we had that just one
Speaker 4: month reign of John Paul the First, who picked that
Speaker 4: name because he wanted to. It signified that he was
Speaker 4: going to accept the inheritance both of John the twenty
Speaker 4: third and of Paul the sixth, and to try to
Speaker 4: bring everyone together. And then John Paul came in after
Speaker 4: the very sudden unexpected death of John Paul the First
Speaker 4: and decided, yes, that's a good line to follow, and
Speaker 4: of course he had a spectacular papacy. But you're right.
Speaker 4: There's an old Latin phrase that nomina suntanumina, that the
Speaker 4: names are spirits, their names are spirits. And so you
Speaker 4: put a name out there, and you put your seal
Speaker 4: on yourself.
Speaker 2: Well, we will be excitedly awaiting the name of the
Speaker 2: next pope because it does give you a big key
Speaker 2: into who he is. And once the pope accepts the office,
Speaker 2: he's ushered into what they call the Room of Tears.
Speaker 2: It's a little room off the Sistine Chapel. You're seeing
Speaker 2: it there, and there are three sizes of white cassocks
Speaker 2: and ziccketdo's, and the new pope puts one of them on,
Speaker 2: hopefully one that fits, and appears on the loggia of
Speaker 2: Saint Peter's where this time Cardinal Mumberti, who is the
Speaker 2: eldest cardinal in the order of Deacons, he will announce
Speaker 2: jabemos popam, we have a pope. What does that tell
Speaker 2: us father that moment, And in retrospect, I think it
Speaker 2: tells us a lot. When they first appear, it is
Speaker 2: the first and.
Speaker 3: Yes, and that really is the great moment. Now it's
Speaker 3: all done in Latin, by the way, so Latin is
Speaker 3: not a dead language, at least in Rome. It's still
Speaker 3: very much alive. And that's always one of the things
Speaker 3: you have to figure out, how do you say the
Speaker 3: name the first name in Latin. So most people bear
Speaker 3: the name of a saint, so saint names are known
Speaker 3: in Latin because they're in the Roman calendar in Latin.
Speaker 3: But if it's like someone who has the family last
Speaker 3: name is their first name, they're gonna have a little
Speaker 3: experimenting to do. In any event, what happens is the
Speaker 3: name is said, and then people try to pick up
Speaker 3: on it because they say the first name and then
Speaker 3: they say the family name, so the given name and
Speaker 3: then the family name. So I remember with Jorge Bergolio,
Speaker 3: when I heard the Georgias, I was thinking, could it
Speaker 3: be George pell who was the cardinal from Australia, But
Speaker 3: it turned out to be the cardinal from Buenos Ayres.
Speaker 3: The deacon will also announce he said saint, which name
Speaker 3: he's take, So we'll find out at that moment whether
Speaker 3: he's jump all the third, you know, Bennett, the seventeenth.
Speaker 3: Francis the second jump, Baul, Yeah, whatever name they pick,
Speaker 3: Pie is the thirteenth. And then that'll give us an
Speaker 3: indication of which pontificate that particularly inspired this person. And
Speaker 3: of course the Pope comes out, we'll see him giving
Speaker 3: his greetings to the people, and the applause will be massive.
Speaker 3: You know, last time it was raining, if you may remember, yeah,
Speaker 3: I do, the applause was still very, very loud.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's always that's the big moment.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the moment that gives your butterflies and
Speaker 2: kind of takes your breath away when the Pope first
Speaker 2: appears and he is a new man, he's no longer
Speaker 2: the cardinal you knew him ass And they do transform
Speaker 2: in office in sometimes wonderful ways and sometimes not.
Speaker 1: So wonderful ways. But we'll be watching it all.
Speaker 2: So the most surprising thing or interesting thing you came
Speaker 2: across today, Bob.
Speaker 4: That's a good question. I think that the way in
Speaker 4: which things have somewhat calmed down has surprised me. I
Speaker 4: see a number of people, and I talk to a
Speaker 4: number of people who who some with very strong opinions
Speaker 4: about one thing or another in the church. But there
Speaker 4: seems to have been kind of a settling down that
Speaker 4: we know who the people are, we know generally what
Speaker 4: the possible directions are going to be. So it's let's
Speaker 4: get serious. Let's get down to business. The voting starts tomorrow.
Speaker 1: This is great father. The most interesting or surprising thing
Speaker 1: you heard today?
Speaker 3: Well, I guess the most interesting thing I've heard is
Speaker 3: that two candidates that I think are particularly going to
Speaker 3: be in the running. I keep hearing good things about them.
Speaker 3: Cardinal Pitzabala from Jerusalem talking to people, finding out, you know,
Speaker 3: what they know about and what they've heard about him.
Speaker 3: And likewise, one of the curial cardinals, Cardinal Mambert. We
Speaker 3: mentioned him, you mentioned him as the Cardinal Deacon of
Speaker 3: greatest longevity, another name again being confirmed, what a good
Speaker 3: man he is and what a good pope he would be.
Speaker 3: So you know, we're all in the information gathering mode
Speaker 3: here and talking to people and hearing. You know, how
Speaker 3: often do we praise each other? Maybe not enough, but
Speaker 3: when you're started hearing praise about two men who could
Speaker 3: be the next pope, my years perked up.
Speaker 1: Well, gentlemen, we will leave it there.
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Speaker 1: We will convene again. I'm Raymond Arroyo from Rome, Say
Speaker 1: next time.
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