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Speaker 1: Bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's book Club. OnlyFans pro wrestling

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Speaker 1: and a mother just trying to figure it all out.

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Speaker 1: Rufie Thorpe's Margo's Got Money Troubles is the novel nobody

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Speaker 1: saw coming, and we are getting into all of it.

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Speaker 2: My own experience of motherhood was both shock at how

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Speaker 2: beautiful it was, Like I felt like how much I

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Speaker 2: loved it.

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Speaker 3: It had really been undersold.

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Speaker 2: To me, Like I thought the big beautiful thing in

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Speaker 2: my life was that I was going to fall in love.

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Speaker 2: I was sort of bowled over by how powerful the

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Speaker 2: experience of becoming a mother and then having to rise

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Speaker 2: to the occasion of mother ing was.

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Speaker 1: But first, it's the first Tuesday of the month, so

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Speaker 1: you know what that means. It's time to announce the

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Speaker 1: Reese's Book Club pick. And you know who's here to

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Speaker 1: announce it all Reese. Who's the April pick?

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Speaker 4: Hey, everybody, it's ree I just want to tell you

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Speaker 4: about our April book Club pick. It's called Into the Blue,

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Speaker 4: a love story by Emma Brody. It's this really romantic,

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Speaker 4: second chance love story about two people who fall really

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Speaker 4: hard for each other, they get pulled apart and then

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Speaker 4: reconnect years later while starring on the same TV show.

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Speaker 3: I loved how it.

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Speaker 4: Explores fate versus choice and whether we can really rewrite

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Speaker 4: our own stories. It's emotional, escapist, and it's such a

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Speaker 4: fun ride. I think you're really.

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Speaker 3: Gonna love it.

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait to chat with Emma Brody at the

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Speaker 1: end of the month. I got an early copy of

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Speaker 1: the book, and let me tell you, it is so good.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Bookmarked by Reese's book Club. Rufy Thorpe's

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four novel, Margo's Got Money Troubles is funny, messy,

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Speaker 1: so smart and completely addictive. And now it's being turned

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Speaker 1: into a series on Apple tv Plus, premiering April fifteen,

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Speaker 1: and it's star studded okay Elle Fanning, Nicole Kidman, Nick Offerman,

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Speaker 1: and Michelle Pfeiffer.

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Speaker 5: Oh and David E. Kelly is the showrunner.

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Speaker 1: Now, Rufie took me back into the creative chaos that

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Speaker 1: inspired the novel, from the writing tips she picked up

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Speaker 1: from pro wrestlers, Yes actually, to the most realistic, challenging,

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Speaker 1: and fabulous parts of her own journey with motherhood.

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Speaker 5: So if you've ever been just trying to.

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Speaker 1: Figure life out as a slightly unhinged, hot hot mess,

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Speaker 1: you're in the right place today. Let's turn the page

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Speaker 1: with Rufie Thorpe.

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Speaker 5: Rufie, Welcome to the club.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 5: I'm so happy you're here. Our producers are so happy

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Speaker 5: you're here.

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Speaker 1: We're all such fans of Ruthie Thorpe and your book.

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Speaker 1: Margo's Got Money Troubles has been adapted into a show

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Speaker 1: by Apple TV, debuting on April fifteenth. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be honest, I was not expecting a story about a

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Speaker 1: young single mom who's figuring it all out have so

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Speaker 1: much professional wrestling in it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I wasn't either.

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Speaker 2: I really just happened to get obsessed with professional wrestling

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Speaker 2: at the time I was writing the book, and then

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Speaker 2: the two things just seemed really thematically related to me.

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Speaker 1: Well, it really made me laugh because we've had two

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Speaker 1: guests on this podcast before you who were so into

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Speaker 1: professional wrestling and had all these references in their books

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Speaker 1: that were unexpected, Malala and Lisa Renna. Oh, and so

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Speaker 1: obviously I have to ask you if you were a

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Speaker 1: professional wrestler, who would be your character and why?

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Speaker 2: I feel like I could go one of two ways,

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Speaker 2: Like who I wish I was would be like some

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Speaker 2: sort of like witch or mystical figure, and I always

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Speaker 2: kind of like loved the Undertaker, like I love those

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Speaker 2: more like goth kind of interpretations. But I also could

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Speaker 2: really see like a humorous indie wrestler character where I'm

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Speaker 2: like a German washer woman and I'm like ringing out

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Speaker 2: laundry with my beefy forearms. I feel like that could

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Speaker 2: that would probably be it would get over faster.

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Speaker 1: I think bf forearms is something I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: thinking about for the rest of the day. What do

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Speaker 1: you think it is about wrestling storytelling, like the drama

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Speaker 1: the characters that actually overlaps with writing novels.

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Speaker 3: I instantly sort of fell in love with it.

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Speaker 2: I actually think the frame of reference I was coming

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Speaker 2: from was drag and I was a big fan of drags.

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Speaker 2: So when my husband started putting it on and I

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Speaker 2: was like, Oh, We're going to dress some ridiculous outfits

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Speaker 2: and insult each other on a microphone, I love it,

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Speaker 2: like I'm already here. The part that maybe is closest

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Speaker 2: to writing is understanding the audience. You know, wrestling audiences

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Speaker 2: are active, It's like Rocky horror picture show and the

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Speaker 2: people are shouting. There's call and response, and the audience

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Speaker 2: is really part of things. And I think that there

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Speaker 2: is this way in which, like writing is always you're

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Speaker 2: having this sort of of intense, energetic exchange with this

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Speaker 2: invisible reader. You know, you don't get to actually see them,

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Speaker 2: You can't tell when they're getting bored. You have to

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Speaker 2: kind of like guess, but you're you're playing this seductive

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Speaker 2: dance of trying to keep their interest, of trying to

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Speaker 2: win them over, of trying to get them to see

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Speaker 2: your point of view and get them to root for

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Speaker 2: your characters.

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Speaker 5: That makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think especially the root for your character part

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Speaker 1: resonates with me because there's storytelling involved in that aspect alone.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. What is it about a character that makes

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Speaker 2: them lovable or that makes that you enjoy hating them?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 3: That makes what makes a really good villain? It's also

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Speaker 3: a writing question.

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Speaker 5: Have you figured that out in terms of what makes

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Speaker 5: a good villain for you?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I mean I think a good villain has

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Speaker 2: to be sort of psychologically consistent and then interesting above all.

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Speaker 5: What do you mean by psychologically consistent?

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Speaker 2: Well, they have to be coherent, like they have to

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Speaker 2: make psychological sense why they would be evil and in

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Speaker 2: what way they think, Like most villains probably don't think like.

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Speaker 3: I'm the creepy little villain. You know.

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Speaker 2: They have a way that their life makes sense to

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Speaker 2: them and justifications for what they're doing. And I think

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Speaker 2: that that's sort of maybe one of my abiding concerns

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Speaker 2: as a human is like everyone believes that they're doing

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Speaker 2: the right thing or the only thing that they could do.

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Speaker 2: You know, everyone has a point of view, and that's

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Speaker 2: sort of like the problem of subjectivity and morality and

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Speaker 2: like how do you ever neatly make moral judgments about

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Speaker 2: another person? Like what if they didn't have another option?

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Speaker 2: You know, that's I think a concern in all all

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Speaker 2: my books. I'm a little bit obsessed with how difficult

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Speaker 2: it is to make moral judgments about other people.

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Speaker 1: Well, in your newest book, Margo's Got Money Troubles, there

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Speaker 1: are so many deep topics that you hit. There's single motherhood,

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Speaker 1: there's addiction, sex work, being very very broke, and it's

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Speaker 1: a story that tackles all of it that like, it

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Speaker 1: could feel very dark, but it's so silly and so funny.

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Speaker 1: Is this the Rufie way? Do you usually try to

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Speaker 1: find the bright side of things?

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Speaker 2: I think, I mean, it took me forever to figure

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Speaker 2: out that I'm an inherently comedic novelist. And I think

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Speaker 2: because I have a melodramatic imagination. If you don't have

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Speaker 2: the comedy in there, it's really like over the top.

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Speaker 2: It's too much. And so the comedy, I think, kind

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Speaker 2: of leavens it. But then I also think that life

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Speaker 2: either strikes you as funny or it doesn't. Life is

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Speaker 2: so absurd, even in its most painful moments that I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of us like laugh when things get

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Speaker 2: really hard. And also a key component of humor is

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Speaker 2: just blurting out the inappropriate truth, Like that is part

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Speaker 2: of the tension of what makes stand up funny or

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Speaker 2: what any joke is often just blurting out the thing

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Speaker 2: you're not supposed to say, but that everybody knows it's true. Oh,

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Speaker 2: and so I think that that can actually be a

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Speaker 2: really useful tool for discussing tangly complicated, morally gray subjects.

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Speaker 5: I like how you put that.

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Speaker 1: I want to see what you think about this, because

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Speaker 1: I think it's almost in addition to what you just said,

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Speaker 1: which is I've always thought great comedians they see the.

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Speaker 5: World differently than we do.

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Speaker 1: We're all maybe walking down the street and in the subway,

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Speaker 1: and they see something that's funny that we don't. Do

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Speaker 1: you feel that way when you're writing, Like, I'm so

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Speaker 1: curious about your creative process. How are you pinpointing what's

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Speaker 1: funny and what's too dramatic versus what's comedic.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's really it's one of those things that I think

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Speaker 2: you kind of do by feel in terms of how

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Speaker 2: to find something that's funny, and I think it's really

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Speaker 2: literally just cracking yourself up. Or there's like a feeling

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Speaker 2: that I'll have that something's hot, like that there's energy

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Speaker 2: there and it's a part of the scene that interests me,

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Speaker 2: and so it's like, once I find a little bit

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Speaker 2: of it, I'll try and like kind of lean into it.

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Speaker 2: But you're in such a weird You're you're conscious, but

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Speaker 2: you also kind of have to go unconscious in order

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Speaker 2: to actually draft.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of like dreaming in that way.

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Speaker 1: I love how you describe that I feel that way

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Speaker 1: when I'm prepping interviews, like I can just feel it.

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Speaker 1: But I've noticed that it's gotten stronger as I've had

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Speaker 1: more experience. Has yours sharpened over time?

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Speaker 2: It feels less scary. Maybe it's just that I'm less

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Speaker 2: scared when it's not working. You know, I'm more comfortable

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Speaker 2: in the mess of my own mind because I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: i'll find it in here eventually. I've found it in

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Speaker 2: here before.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: So I know what works for me at this point,

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Speaker 2: and I have me and my husband call them my

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Speaker 2: worm behaviors. I like to right, laying down with dirty hair,

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Speaker 2: reheating the same cup of coffee like five times. Like

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Speaker 2: the dirtier the house gets, and the more out of

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Speaker 2: control it gets. My husband's like, oh, she's thriving, like

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Speaker 2: she's doing her best work.

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Speaker 3: Now, this is very good. This is good for all

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Speaker 3: of us.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, I love this so much.

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Speaker 1: How early on in your dating process did you let

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Speaker 1: him see your worm behavior?

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I got pregnant by accident when we'd been

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Speaker 2: together for six weeks, at which point he had not

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Speaker 2: seen any worm behaviors for sure, and we kind of

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Speaker 2: decided to just go all in and got married. So

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Speaker 2: we got married when we had known each other for

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Speaker 2: three months. It has now been fourteen years, and it

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Speaker 2: turned out to be the best decision that I ever made.

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Speaker 2: We were just really nice to each other because we

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Speaker 2: knew we were making such an insane decision and we

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Speaker 2: really wanted it to work out. So I think we

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Speaker 2: never we never picked at each other like, oh, does

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Speaker 2: he really like me? What if I'm kind of mean

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Speaker 2: to him right now? You know, we didn't do any

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Speaker 2: of that because the stakes were too high. We're like,

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Speaker 2: how do we take care of this baby together? We

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Speaker 2: have no money and we don't know what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm actually glad you brought that up, because you

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Speaker 1: personally have a really interesting story, and you've published three

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Speaker 1: other books before this one. I think this book feels

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Speaker 1: the most memoir adjacent. I'm curious why you felt like

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Speaker 1: it was right to write it now.

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Speaker 2: I will be very frank, none of my books are

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Speaker 2: our memoir in the sense that none of these plot

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Speaker 2: points have happened in my life. There's definitely material that

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Speaker 2: you mind from your own life, like I was raised

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Speaker 2: by a single mom. In many ways, Margo is kind

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Speaker 2: of a love letter to single moms and only daughters

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Speaker 2: you know or you know, or an indictment, depending depending

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Speaker 2: on how you read the book. In terms of why

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Speaker 2: I was interested in writing this right now, I tend

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Speaker 2: to be haunted by the idea of something that I

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Speaker 2: want to write for many years before I start writing it.

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Speaker 2: And I had been particularly haunted by this idea of

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Speaker 2: making kind of almost like a female superhero character who

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Speaker 2: was a Madonna whore, like who takes the Madonna horror complex,

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Speaker 2: and she's both she's a holy mother and a very

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Speaker 2: good sex worker. And I just was like, what would happen?

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Speaker 2: Would she explode? Could you write such a character? Could

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Speaker 2: you ever get a reader to get behind her?

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Speaker 3: I just was kind of in love with the idea.

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Speaker 2: And it was really only when OnlyFans was exploding during

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Speaker 2: the pandemic and I was watching some of my favorite

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Speaker 2: female comedians on Twitter couldn't do stand up anymore, and

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Speaker 2: so a couple of them started only Fans accounts and

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Speaker 2: were kind of like live tweeting their experience on that journey.

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Speaker 2: And I just noticed that people were talking about only

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Speaker 2: Fans a little bit differently.

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Speaker 3: So I was like, if I was ever going to

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Speaker 3: do that.

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Speaker 2: Character OnlyFans is the way that you could keep the

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Speaker 2: conversation from just collapsing into black and white before you

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Speaker 2: got anywhere interesting with exploring the material.

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Speaker 1: This is a harsh turn, but you wrote a beautiful

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Speaker 1: essay about motherhood, and you said it was both the

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Speaker 1: hardest and the best thing that you have ever done.

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Speaker 1: And you just mentioned that this was sort of either

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Speaker 1: a love letter or an indictment to single mothers. What

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Speaker 1: are you trying to communicate to moms through this book.

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Speaker 2: My own experience of motherhood was both shock at how

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Speaker 2: beautiful it was, Like I felt like how much I

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Speaker 2: loved it. It had really been undersold to me, Like

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Speaker 2: I thought the big beautiful thing in my life was

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Speaker 2: that I was going to fall in love. Romantic love

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Speaker 2: had been portrayed to me over and over again as

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Speaker 2: the thing that would give my life existential meaning.

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Speaker 3: So I was sort of.

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Speaker 2: Bowled over by how powerful the experience of becoming a

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Speaker 2: mother and then having to rise to the occasion of

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Speaker 2: mothering was, and how much it made me stronger, more

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Speaker 2: powerful person. And I just shocked at how poorly set

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Speaker 2: up the world is for anyone to mother in. I

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Speaker 2: mean just the lack of maternal leave that how the

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Speaker 2: brokenness of the medical system.

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Speaker 3: I mean, all of it is just wild.

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Speaker 2: Why would we set up a society where like the

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Speaker 2: main thing you have to do to continue the species

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Speaker 2: and yet no, you know.

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Speaker 3: The world is absolutely not set up for it.

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Speaker 2: And so there was sort of like rage in terms

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Speaker 2: of like I knew I was, I had a partner, now,

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Speaker 2: we didn't know what we were doing. We didn't have

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Speaker 2: any money, I had family, I had all these advantages,

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Speaker 2: and I still found it really difficult. And I just

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Speaker 2: was like, how are women doing this? How are women

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Speaker 2: not like revolting in the street over how difficult this is.

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Speaker 1: Did it give you a different sense of your mom

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Speaker 1: as a single mom?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean just so, first of all, I think

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Speaker 2: it's almost a standard response when you realize that just

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Speaker 2: tidal wave of love that you feel for your baby

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Speaker 2: before they've.

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Speaker 3: Even done anything.

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Speaker 2: They're just like a little potato in your arms, and you're, oh,

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Speaker 2: my god, did she love me like this? And you

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Speaker 2: just realized that you had no way of conceptualizing how

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Speaker 2: much your mother loved you.

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Speaker 5: That's so beautiful.

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Speaker 2: But also then it's lonely, like how many times do I, like,

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Speaker 2: the baby does something cute and you look over at

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Speaker 2: your partner like, oh.

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Speaker 3: My god, can you believe how cute they are?

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Speaker 2: And just understanding that my mom didn't have anybody to

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Speaker 2: look at that way about me to share it with,

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Speaker 2: and it must have been lonely and also really frustrating

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Speaker 2: talking to children, like.

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Speaker 3: Imagine that, like there's no adult world that you can

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Speaker 3: escape to after.

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Speaker 2: The kids get to bed, Like it's just you and

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Speaker 2: a child in some sort of terrible, unending buddy movie.

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Speaker 1: You know, Well, is there anything that you put in

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Speaker 1: from your childhood into the book Margo's Got Money Troubles?

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Speaker 3: Well, yes, but not the things you might think.

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Speaker 2: My mom is a very different sort of woman than Chyenna,

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Speaker 2: And in fact, I think I probably steered Chyenne in

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Speaker 2: the direction I did to just make it abundantly clear

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Speaker 2: to my mom that this was not a portrait of

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Speaker 2: her or my upbringing or you know, you're always sort

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Speaker 2: of trying to do those kindnesses to people. But I

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Speaker 2: did take certain things, like I our car growing up

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Speaker 2: was a purple Honda Civic, and so when it came

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Speaker 2: when I was like, and Margot gets in her car,

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Speaker 2: what is it and I'm like, it's a purple Honda Civic.

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Speaker 1: Are there any more that you can share? I feel

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Speaker 1: like readers will love to hear about that.

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Speaker 2: She has a thing called orange meal that's orange juice

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Speaker 2: and orange cheddar sun chips, and that is a meal

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Speaker 2: that like me and my friend made up that were

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Speaker 2: like it's like food, Like it's like you're having because

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Speaker 2: you have the vitamins and then some chips are healthy,

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Speaker 2: Like it's okay to eat this instead of a meal,

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Speaker 2: you know when we were young and broke.

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Speaker 3: There's so there's lots of little things like that.

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Speaker 2: Definitely hungry Ghost as like a name, and as part

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Speaker 2: of that poem, there was a uh it was I

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Speaker 2: was it was my twenty fourth birthday party, and there

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Speaker 2: was a guy there that was playing an original song

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Speaker 2: on a guitar that was like, I'm a hungry Ghost,

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Speaker 2: and I have never been able to forget it. Just

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Speaker 2: the phrase I'm a hungry ghost has just been in

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Speaker 2: my head for the last twenty years, and.

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Speaker 3: So that made its way in there. Times. What it

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Speaker 3: feels like.

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Speaker 2: To me is like I'm saving, like like you're like

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Speaker 2: someone collecting pebbles and then gradually You're like, these eight.

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Speaker 3: Pebbles have something to do with each other, you know.

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Speaker 2: So they're like little details or things that I can't

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Speaker 2: get out of my mind that I've been like carrying

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Speaker 2: around for years. And then I'll start to be like, no,

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Speaker 2: when you put these five pebbles together, something interesting emerges

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Speaker 2: about their relationship to each other. And that's sort of

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Speaker 2: how I start down the road of making things up.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting to explain the five pebbles. That's very cool.

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Speaker 1: Earlier you said that part of the comedy is like

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Speaker 1: the absurdity and saying the thing out loud, and you

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Speaker 1: really do see that throughout your book. I found the

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Speaker 1: moments that were not as Kamie, where you're still saying

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Speaker 1: the thing out loud to be really interesting.

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Speaker 5: There's this emotional part.

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Speaker 1: It's on page thirty five and Margo, who is the

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Speaker 1: main character, has given birth to her son body and

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Speaker 1: she's brought him back from the hospital and she's like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, what have I done? And so you

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Speaker 1: explain that love that you just shared about, like that

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Speaker 1: your mom must have had for you, and then you

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Speaker 1: drive this tension which sort of lasts throughout the whole

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Speaker 1: book of like, what the hell have I just done?

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Speaker 1: This is so hard. What was the thing that you

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Speaker 1: felt most deeply when you became a new mom that

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Speaker 1: you weren't supposed to say?

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Speaker 3: Ooh, that's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it's directly related to the book,

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Speaker 2: but the honest answer is I had a lot of

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Speaker 2: rage at my doctor, and partially because I had a

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Speaker 2: highly involuntary and medically necessary sea section. And I can

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Speaker 2: remember like trying to tell the anesthesiologist so I was like,

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Speaker 2: can you please narrate to me what's about to happen?

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Speaker 2: I'm really really scared, and he like slapped my face

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Speaker 2: with those gloved handies, like don't worry, sweetheart, you won't

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Speaker 2: feel a thing.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, no, that happened in real life. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that happened in real life.

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Speaker 1: Is that why you included the scene where Margo's mom

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Speaker 1: slaps the nurse.

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Speaker 2: I do think that like some of my sublimated like

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Speaker 2: rage at the medical industrial complex like comes out in

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Speaker 2: ways in that book. It's like this hugely like traumatic

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Speaker 2: thing and then they're like, Okay, here's this baby going home,

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Speaker 2: like ohh and so I just I do Mainly I

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Speaker 2: remember like having panic attacks of rage, feeling like I

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Speaker 2: was dirty because my evil doctor's hands had been all

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Speaker 2: up in my guts, and like, I don't know. It's

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Speaker 2: just a really big transition that we don't do a

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Speaker 2: ton of talking about for women before. And then the

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Speaker 2: also then having to do something really hard and stressful

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Speaker 2: and go through all these hormonal changes and you're not sleeping,

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Speaker 2: and we have this idea of the nuclear family. There

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00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 2: isn't People don't know how to support you, and you

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00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 2: feel like a failure for asking for help, and you

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Speaker 2: don't really know how to ask for help, and so

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Speaker 2: there's a real vulnerability and kind of a feeling like

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Speaker 2: an animal.

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Speaker 3: There are moments where Margo is just like, ah, you know.

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Speaker 2: She's a beast and she's like filled with rage.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she's also very scrappy, which is cool.

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00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 5: She's she's a hustler, she's creative.

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Speaker 1: I mean, instead of letting the stress of her financial

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Speaker 1: situation bring her down, she creates an OnlyFans account to

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Speaker 1: pay her bills. I love that she uses what she

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Speaker 1: learned in literature class, like classic storytelling structures and narrative theory,

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00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,400
Speaker 1: and applies it to the storylines that she creates on OnlyFans.

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Speaker 1: Why did you want to make OnlyFans this main plot point?

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Speaker 2: In part because I started with this idea of having

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Speaker 2: a Madonna horror character. I also, really, I mean, for me,

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Speaker 2: Margo's naivety is sort of a kind of superpower. There's

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Speaker 2: a way in which I think part of youth is

415
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Speaker 2: being too stupid to realize how hard what you're trying

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Speaker 2: to do is. Yes, I so agree, and that can

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Speaker 2: often be how you wind up doing something incredible because

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Speaker 2: you just were too stupid to not know to do that,

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Speaker 2: you know. And so I really I it was great

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Speaker 2: fun to remember that about myself and remember, you know,

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Speaker 2: remember what it felt like to be like, well, I

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Speaker 2: guess I'll just do it this way, and to kind

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Speaker 2: of get to live in that with her and then

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Speaker 2: only fans.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think that.

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Speaker 2: I just skew less scared of the Internet than maybe

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Speaker 2: other people of my generation. I kind of fell in

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Speaker 2: love with YouTube from watching my kids watch it, and

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Speaker 2: I guess that to me, if you had explain the

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Speaker 2: concept of YouTube to me when it was first starting,

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Speaker 2: I would have assumed that regular people with no budget

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Speaker 2: would not really make content worth watching, and to be

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Speaker 2: so thoroughly disproven. You know, I love YouTube. I watch

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Speaker 2: an insane amount of YouTube. I love There's Ants Canada,

435
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 2: and he will explain to you everything that's happening with

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00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: his aunts, his ant colony, and the various goings on

437
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 2: and dramas in his ant world. You can find if

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00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: you're interested in anthropology, there's anthropologists talking about the latest

439
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 2: research and scandals going on in anthropology. You want to

440
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: you want to learn everything there is to know about snakes.

441
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 2: Guess what, There's a great guy who knows all about

442
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 2: reptiles is going to tell you everything you ever want

443
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 2: to know about snakes.

444
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 3: You know.

445
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 2: And yeah, there's a lot of stupid content, but it

446
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 2: is exciting to me. I think I love outsider art.

447
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: I love things made by people. I think that's part

448
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: of the aesthetic of wrestling that also appeals to me.

449
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 2: It seems like an out of control group project, you know,

450
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 2: like you have one guy who's like I have a

451
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 2: magic earn, and you have another guy's like I have

452
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 2: a sock puppet, and the other guy's like, I'm Captain America.

453
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: Like it doesn't go together aesthetically. There's a lack of

454
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 2: a controlling artistic hand, and I think that that's kind

455
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 2: of what excites me about you two, but also about

456
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: only fans, like the sheer variety of humans. We're so weird,

457
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,959
Speaker 2: we're so wonderfully idiosyncratic. We're all different from each other,

458
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 2: and yet we're all like really deeply the same and

459
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 2: capable of having empathy with each other.

460
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 3: And I just think it's like beautiful.

461
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: And so I think there are certain things about the

462
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 2: Internet that I I mean, I experience the fear as well.

463
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 3: You know, I can see the dystopia. I'm not blind

464
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 3: to it.

465
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 2: But there is a way in which I think I

466
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 2: am more optimistic about human beings than not.

467
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: I love that you told me all the YouTube rabbit

468
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: holes that you went down, But you did get one thing,

469
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: which is an amazing watch.

470
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 5: You interviewed yourself. Yeah, when you were promoting one of

471
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 5: your books. I think it was for the Knockout Queen, right.

472
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 3: It was right.

473
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 2: It published into the pandemic. So my whole book tour

474
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: got canceled.

475
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 3: So good can I do?

476
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: So? I made the silly little video where I'm pretending

477
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: to interview myself.

478
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 5: It was very funny. Everybody should go watch that.

479
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: Have you ever had like a crazy side hustle the

480
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 1: way Margot has. I mean, not necessarily only fans, But

481
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: did you ever have odd jobs?

482
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: I've had weird jobs. I had a summer I was

483
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 2: selling to fibrillators.

484
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, what, Ruby, I was a bar and bought

485
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: Mitzvah Dancer and I worked at a spins studio.

486
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 5: I thought that was weird. You really just one?

487
00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 3: No, it was.

488
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 2: I was the worst, did not sell a single defibrillator.

489
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 5: I was like, nineteen, Okay, Well, I.

490
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: Need to ask you about the audiobook because I love

491
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: when authors do their own or if they have somebody

492
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: who's very compelling do it. And you had freaking Elle

493
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: Fanning narrate your audiobook.

494
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 3: That was such a gift.

495
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: I mean it was insane because the whole way that

496
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 2: the show came about was so anomalous and incredible. But

497
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: it happened before the book came out, and so Elle

498
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: was already going to be Margo in the show, and

499
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: they were like, we've got to get her to do

500
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 2: the audiobook.

501
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 5: Wait, I thought it was the opposite. This is so cool.

502
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so that was really magical getting to hear

503
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: her do it. I mean she just killed it, and

504
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: I'm guessing for her it was like an interesting way

505
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: of then in haening a character to have also been

506
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 2: the audio book narrator for the whole thing.

507
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 5: And were you involved in any of the casting conversations.

508
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean in the most peripheral, like you know,

509
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 2: hanger on kind of way.

510
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 3: I remember so many of my instincts are just so wrong.

511
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 2: Like they were talking about Greg Kanere for Kenny, and

512
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: I was just like, could he play someone who's never

513
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 2: been beautiful? Like I feel like it's so part of

514
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: Greg Kanear that like he was like such a beautiful animal,

515
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: and does he know what it's like to have never

516
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 2: been beautiful? And boy, did I not understand Greg Kannear's

517
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,719
Speaker 2: chops because Kenny is luminous.

518
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 3: And Michelle, Oh.

519
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: My god, I just want everyone to know you're talking

520
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: about the Michelle Pfeiffer.

521
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 5: But I'm not making my first name cases with her.

522
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 5: I mean, this this cast is so stacked.

523
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: You have obviously El Fanning and Michelle Pfeiffer, but you

524
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: have Nick Offerman, Nicole Kidman.

525
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 5: It's produced by a TV legend, David E.

526
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: Kelly, which is the guy who's behind like big little

527
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: Lies and Ali McBeal and the Lincoln Lawyer.

528
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 5: When you first heard that he.

529
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: Was writing this, did you feel like, Okay, this is

530
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: in the hands of somebody who knows what they're doing.

531
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

532
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 2: Well, And anytime people would be like, well, don't you

533
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: want to write it, I'd be like, no, yeah, I

534
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: want to grab the pencil out of davidy Kelly's hand.

535
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 3: No please.

536
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 2: And in so many ways it felt like getting a masterclass,

537
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: like to see someone take your material that you know

538
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: so intimately and then they are recasting it. There's so

539
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: many things that he would do that I'd be like, oh, wow,

540
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: that's really smart, Like I kind of wish I had

541
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 2: done it that way, or like he just has cool

542
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: storytelling instincts. I feel like I learned a lot. It

543
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: was an embarrassment of riches. It was like every time

544
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: that I would talk to anybody, it was just getting

545
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 2: cooler and cooler, And the whole time I was just like,

546
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: are you guys sure like this seems like some sort

547
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 2: of cosmic mistake, Like, surely no one deserves this much

548
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 2: good fortune?

549
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: You know?

550
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 3: Oh well, no, nobod he does. I'm not saying I

551
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 3: don't deserve it.

552
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: But like, this is an insane thing to have happened

553
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 2: too as a novelist. You know, I would have been

554
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: happy if they made a bad show, you know, but

555
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: then for that made a really really good show.

556
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 5: Wait, you've seen it already.

557
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: I've seen it all Yeah, and you like it. I

558
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: could not be more blown away.

559
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 5: Oh, I have chills for you. I'm so happy.

560
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 3: They should be so proud. They should be so proud

561
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 3: of what they made.

562
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: I heard that Nick Offerman learned how to wrestle and

563
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: did all of his own stunts.

564
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 5: Can you confirm or deny he did?

565
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 3: And it was sick. I could not believe it.

566
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: I got to see like clips from his like wrestling

567
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: camp that he did, like all his moves put together.

568
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 3: It was amazing, Like he really went for it.

569
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 5: My god.

570
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: So Michelle Pfeiffer and Nick Offerman play Elle Fanning's parents.

571
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 3: Yep.

572
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: So when you heard that, did you see the vision

573
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: immediately or did you sort of thing like, wait, Ron

574
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: Swanson and Catwomen are ELL's parents?

575
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 5: Like, how do I?

576
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: First of all, I feel like Nick Auferman has this

577
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: combination of what we would call like traditionally masculine traits

578
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: and tenderness and the ability to be vulnerable and sensitive

579
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: kind of like that's almost part of his brand, and

580
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: so I was like, Oh, this is a perfect role

581
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: for him. He can absolutely beat the crap out of

582
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: somebody and then hold a baby and make alasagna from scratch,

583
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: like very much. He's believably can do all those things.

584
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: And there's something so ethereal about Michelle Pfeiffer, Like part

585
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: of it's the beauty. Part of it is the her

586
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: eyes are so expressive, but it felt like sky and earth,

587
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 2: like they were sort of like elementally balanced against each other.

588
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, like, God, I wonder what their

589
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: chemistry is going to be like.

590
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 3: And then it did not disappoint.

591
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: Without giving too much away, there's a part of the

592
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: book and the show where Margo befriends one of her subscribers,

593
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: which sounds a little scary because it definitely blurs the

594
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: line between creator and fan, and this could have easily

595
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: been I think the tension throughout the novel, but it's not.

596
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: The friendship is kind of like a relief in her

597
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: chaotic world. What is your interaction with fans?

598
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: Like, because it is weird, you don't get to watch

599
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: people read your book.

600
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 3: They're doing it secretly.

601
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: You don't know about it, you know, And so then

602
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: you get this message from someone like I remember getting

603
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: this message was like from a young woman.

604
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: She's like, I had to climb.

605
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: I have no cell phone bars in my apartment, and

606
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 2: so I'm on the roof of my apartment building trying

607
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: to get this email to go through because it just

608
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 2: felt so desperately important to tell you that I love

609
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: this book. And I was, like, I can remember feeling

610
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: that way about a book when I was that age.

611
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

612
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: Like I can remember thinking, I better climb upon the

613
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: roof and hold my phone appears to this email will

614
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: go through, and so it just feels like kind of

615
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: miraculous every time, or like I got a letter from

616
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: the head of a Methodone clinic, yeah, being like I

617
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: cried when I read this book because I'd never seen

618
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: Methodone portrayed in such a positive light, and like, obviously

619
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: I believe in what I do, but like I've ought

620
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: to accept that I'm it's kind of culturally stigmatized. Like

621
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: I would have died of terror if I thought actual

622
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: pro wrestlers were going to read this book.

623
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: Have you had messages from pro wrestlers. I, because of

624
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: the show, got to go backstage at some WWE and

625
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: HEYW events and then talk.

626
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 3: To people, and yeah, they started like passing it around

627
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 3: and reading it.

628
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: And when a guy was like, who do you know?

629
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: Are you friends with Brett? And I was like, no,

630
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 2: I'm not friends with Brett Hart. In my wildest dreams,

631
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: I'm friends with Brett Hart.

632
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: You guys all.

633
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: Write memoirs, and I just copied what you said your

634
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: life was like, because I that is the thing about

635
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: wrestling is they have a tremendous literary tradition. Almost every

636
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: wrestler has one, if not multiple memoirs, so you can

637
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: really really read the skinny.

638
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: And get into their story. You know, you seem like

639
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: you have so many interests. Is there something that you

640
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: are absolutely obsessed with that you could write a book

641
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: about it but you won't.

642
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: Well, I have a dream, you see.

643
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: So one of my interests is anthropology, particularly like early

644
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: hominid species, like origins of man neanderthals, like Homo sapiens,

645
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: like I think wondering what kind of animals we are,

646
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: and like what kinds of things are innate and versus

647
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: what things are cultural is like a thing that my

648
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: brain can never stop picking at.

649
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 3: Are you familiar with the Clan of the Cave Bear books?

650
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: I'm not, okay. So they are neolithic romance novels with

651
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 3: a lot of sex.

652
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: In them, and they are how I learned about sex

653
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 2: as like as a girl.

654
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: My mom owned these novels and I started reading them.

655
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: But it is a dream of mine to like rewrite

656
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: Clan of the Cave Bear with updated science, with like

657
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: updated anthropology.

658
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 5: Maybe this is maybe this was my god rufi.

659
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: Do you talk about these dreams in your writing retreats?

660
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: Oh?

661
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally. I mean that's the place to be silly.

662
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 2: Writing retreats are such a blessing. Like so sometimes I

663
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: like host them, and sometimes I'm just like going on

664
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: them with like a group of writer friends will like

665
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: rent a cabin and everybody will just write and then

666
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: cook dinner at night.

667
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,239
Speaker 5: Can you explain what?

668
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: I've never been to one, and I always hear about them,

669
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: like how are they organized?

670
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 5: What happens there?

671
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: So it depends, like if it's a formal one that

672
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: you're like paying to go on, then you're usually there's

673
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: time for you to write in the day if like

674
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: part of your goal is that you want to get

675
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: a lot done, and then there's like craft talks, or

676
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 2: they'll have like special guest lectures, or sometimes they'll bring

677
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: an agent to like talk about publishing and the state

678
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 2: of the industry. And then it's really also a time

679
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: to make connections and friends, and so there's usually a

680
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: lot of like drinking, dance parties, campfires like this kind

681
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: of Shenani against in the evening, because it really is

682
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 2: like I think that those peer artistic relationships are maybe

683
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:14,959
Speaker 2: the most important part.

684
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 5: I heard you're hosting one in Italy.

685
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 3: I am with Kevin Wilson. I'm very wow.

686
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: How fun your book is about this young woman figuring

687
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 1: out how to survive and build a life when everything

688
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: feels stacked against her. And now that the story is

689
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: going out into the world as a TV show, what

690
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: are you hoping that people learn from Margo about surviving

691
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: your twenties? Is there any advice that you can share

692
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: to someone listening who's at that stage of their life.

693
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: I realized pretty early on when I was writing it

694
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: that I wanted to actually try and portray the mechanics

695
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 2: of female empowerment, and I think that one of those

696
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: moments is letting go of trying to do what you

697
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: think other people want you to do, what you think

698
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: you would get approval for doing what you know, and

699
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: then really taking a frank look at what you want

700
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: and then trying to go and.

701
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 3: Get it for yourself.

702
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 2: I feel like that is sort of the journey that

703
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: Marco is really on. And once you've stepped outside, once

704
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: you can no longer use other people's approval as a compass,

705
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: because you've made a decision that is going to incur

706
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 2: a lot of people's disapproval, like joining OnlyFans or having

707
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: a baby when you're too young to have a baby.

708
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 3: You have to figure out your own moral compass.

709
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 2: You have to decide who you want to be, you

710
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: have to decide what kind of person you want to be.

711
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 2: You have to decide what you want, and then you

712
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 2: have to go and get it. And so I think

713
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 2: that women are often trained to be aware of what

714
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: everybody else wants but them, and it can be really

715
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 2: confusing to figure figure out what you want. It's hard

716
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: to say like, well, this is what I want, not

717
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: just how I want to be perceived, but this is

718
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: what I want to do. This is what I want

719
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 2: to make. This is what I want to have, not

720
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: just how I want to seem to other people. That

721
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: was sort of like the most empowering lesson from my

722
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 2: own twenties.

723
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: I resonate with that so deeply, and I was thinking

724
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: about some of the ways that, as you were talking,

725
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: some of the ways that I was able to get

726
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: clarity on who I was and what I wanted. And honestly,

727
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: the biggest thing was reading books other women's stories. Is

728
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: there an author that helped you get clarity on what

729
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: you wanted or who you were? Well?

730
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: I can remember I had The Master Butcher's Singing Club

731
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: by Louise Erdrich and I was reading it in a

732
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: college class and my professor said, oh, what are you reading?

733
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: And I showed him and he said, oh, that's not

734
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: a real book. And I remember just like being incandescent

735
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: with rage. And I was like, you think that this

736
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,479
Speaker 2: isn't a real book and doesn't have literary merit because

737
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 2: what it's not boring enough, you know? And I really

738
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: started to kind of resent this idea that there is

739
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 2: some sort of inherent difference between high art and low art,

740
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: and this idea that literary fiction novels shouldn't make use

741
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: of all of the powerful revving engine of storytelling, of plot,

742
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: of suspense, of character. You know, like, why wouldn't you

743
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: try and have all the philosophical depth of a literary

744
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: fiction novel and have it be fun to read? And

745
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: so I think that, you know, there were so many

746
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: writers that made me think, no, you can do it.

747
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 2: Dennis Laine was one of those writers. James McBride. I

748
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 2: feel like sometimes when I'm reading James McBride, I feel

749
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: like I don't know how someone wrote something so completely

750
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 2: to my taste, you know, like every single scene there's

751
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 2: something in it that just delights me that I can't

752
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: get over. Those are kind of the people who made

753
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: me believe it's possible, Like, no, you can have all

754
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: this depth and it can be fun as hell.

755
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: I love hearing you talk about an author that way,

756
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: because I think that's how people feel about you.

757
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 3: Oh, that's the nicest thing you could have said. That's

758
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 3: so sweet.

759
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,919
Speaker 1: It's true, like every book is important and people's words

760
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: are important, but you have such a unique voice. There's

761
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: not a lot of If you like, rufi read this

762
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: like you know what I mean?

763
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 2: This advice is given to writers all the time, like

764
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: find your voice, and I was like, hell the hell

765
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: are you supposed to do that?

766
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 3: I spent years.

767
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: Trying to write like Raymond Carver right Like, I was like,

768
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: who am I supposed to be? How do I be

769
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 2: to get my professors to approve of me? To get

770
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: and that the answer is like, no, just be more yourself.

771
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: You're like, are you kidding? It's too easy? Are you serious?

772
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 3: Like I'm supposed to just.

773
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: Become increasingly relentlessly myself? Like yeah, that's crazy, And yet

774
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: that is what people respond to. It's very counterintuitive. But

775
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 2: the more idiosyncratic and individual authentic you are and who

776
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 2: you are, the more universally appealing. I think the material.

777
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: Do you take a look at up and coming writers

778
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 1: and check out what they're doing online?

779
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 5: Or you really focused on your own work?

780
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 3: Oh?

781
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: I read it constantly and I love seeing I love

782
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 2: seeing what people are up to. And I blurb a

783
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: lot and I read a lot for friendship. I mean,

784
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 2: I think that it's there's too much to read, you know.

785
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 2: I'm also like, I'm in a book club with a

786
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 2: bunch of other moms and we read those books as well.

787
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: Really, who gets the books we each so there's like

788
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: kind of twelve of us, and so everybody gets a

789
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: month and so you picked.

790
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 3: The book and then you host cool. It's very fun.

791
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: I love a book club.

792
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 5: Okay.

793
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: I want to do something called speed read with you,

794
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: which means I'm putting sixty seconds on the clock and

795
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: we're going to play heel or hero. So hero, the

796
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: crowd goes wild. Heel, we love to hate it, where

797
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: boo and we're throwing our popcorn. Okay, So how do

798
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 1: you feel about cosplay heal or Hero?

799
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a hero culturally. I think people

800
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 2: love to make fun of it and look down on it.

801
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: So I guess he'll judging a book by its cover

802
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: heel or hero, Heal.

803
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I buy books based on

804
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: their covers all the time.

805
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 5: Okay, literature professors heal.

806
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: I can't say they're all heels. I don't know. I'm

807
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 3: really I don't like anyone telling you what to think.

808
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: Professional wrestlers who drink green tea hero obviously, no question.

809
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: Drag Queen's hero books written in the first.

810
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 3: Person, I think they get a bad rap.

811
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 2: I mean, I love them, I write them, but I

812
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 2: think people think that they're like, not as fancy books

813
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: written in the third person Hero books that do both well.

814
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 3: You know, obviously obviously Hero.

815
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: Here babies, Hero Baby to cry all night boo, heal.

816
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 5: TikTok.

817
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: I mean, Hero, we all spend enough time on it,

818
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: but we do love to look down on people for

819
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: spending time on it.

820
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 5: How about book talk, I mean, I.

821
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 2: Think, Hero, like, what a sweet way to spend your

822
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 2: time recommending. I feel like Hero.

823
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 5: Agreed books about motherhood.

824
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,919
Speaker 2: They're having a cultural moments, I want to say, Hero,

825
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 2: but I also like, I mean, sometimes I don't want

826
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: to read about motherhood because I'm doing it and I

827
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: want to read about other planets and stuff and glaciers.

828
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 5: Reading the book before the TV show.

829
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: Hero Move, Hero Move, reading reviews before starting a new book,

830
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: heal boo boo.

831
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 5: And book clubs in general.

832
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 3: Hero, how else are you going to get the good gossip.

833
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: So true, I agree, and the good snacks, all the good.

834
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 2: Snacks you get, peanut butter cups, rose, you get to

835
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: find out which history teacher is unreasonable?

836
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 3: You know, mmmm, it's important, Rufi.

837
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 5: This was just such a delight, Thank you so much.

838
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is pure strict pleasure.

839
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 5: Mmm, thank you.

840
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: I hope that's how you describe something unsavory in your

841
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: upcoming books.

842
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 5: That's it for this episode.

843
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: Of Bookmarked by Reese's book Club. Our phone line is

844
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: now open, so if you want to go nineties on us,

845
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: give us a call at one five zero one two

846
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: nine to one three three seven nine. That's one five

847
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: zero one two nine one three three seven nine. Share

848
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, questions about the

849
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: monthly pick, or let us know what you think about

850
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might

851
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: just hear yourself in our next episode, so.

852
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 5: Don't overthink it.

853
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 1: Give us a ring, and if you want more, come

854
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: hang with us. Reese's book Club is on Instagram serving

855
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: up books, good vibes, and all the behind the scenes

856
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: stuff you love. And I'm at Danielle Robe rob a y,

857
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: so come say hi and please seriously DM me because

858
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: I actually read them and I love hearing what you

859
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: think about the episodes. And don't forget to follow Bookmarked

860
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: by Reese's book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

861
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen. We'll see you in the next chapter.

862
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: Bookmarked is A production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts.

863
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me Danielle Robe production

864
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez,

865
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: and Sarah Schleid. Our editor is Carmen Borca Carrillo. Our

866
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: production assistant is Avery Loftis. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder

867
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: are executive producers for.

868
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 5: A Cast Creative Studios.

869
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: Mariene Polo and Reese Witherspoon are executive producers for Hello Sunshine,

870
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 1: Olga Cominwa, Kristin Perla, Ashley Rappaport and Sarah Kernerman are

871
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: associate producers for Reese's book Club, and Ali Perry is

872
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: executive producer for iHeart Podcasts.