WEBVTT - Angela Takes the Stand 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.920 After spending four days listening to Jake Wagner testify against 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:10.120 his older brother George, jurors today heard from both boys mother, 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:15.080 Angela Wagner. She speaks of her husband and her sons 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:20.959 in a very loving manner. She's really presenting today as 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:28.360 a sweet, loving mother. She's there to save her life, 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.360 but also the lives of her family. Lord knows how 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:34.960 many people that had actually stolen from It sounds like 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:37.959 the Old West because they had even gotten involvement poaching 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.800 and cattle whistle. You can have sympathy for somebody, but 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.800 when you take part in killing eight people, sorry, that 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:54.400 all goes out the window. This is the pike To Massacre. 0:00:54.760 --> 0:01:00.200 Return to Pike County season four, episode nineteen, and it 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:04.679 takes the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:09.320 Katie Studios with Stephanie Laidicker and Jeff Shane. It's important 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:11.800 to note that George Wagner the fourth has pleaded not 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.600 guilty and maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.920 Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.720 guilty to all charges. We've heard testimony from Jake Wagner 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.600 about his role in the crimes against the Rodin, Manly 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:29.800 and Gilly families. Today we're hearing from another pivotal witness 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:34.360 for the prosecution and accused killer comes face to face 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:36.560 with his mother for the first time since both were 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:40.440 arrested four years ago. Jurors today heard from both boys mother, 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.640 Angela Wagner, looking somewhat frail and wearing a drab jail uniform. 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.160 The fifty two year old Wagner took the stand around 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.720 ten fifteen this morning, wearing a drab black and white 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:55.120 jail uniform. Angela Wagner walks into the courtroom. James Pilcher, 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.560 longtime investigative reporter from Cincinnati now with Local twelve, was 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.040 there and Angela arrived at court so one thing that 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.240 her appearance was much different than in the past. Her 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.639 hair was much longer. One of the other interesting details 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.240 is that she was shackle much like her son was, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:14.360 but the change were much lighter, so they made a 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.119 much different noise on the floor and she walked by, 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.560 it was more like a clank clank clink rather than 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.720 clank clank clank. Here's Stephanie, who was also in the 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.640 courtroom during Angela Agnes testimony. You can literally hear her 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.000 with her shackles coming down the hallway, which was such 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:35.320 an eerie sound. James Pilcher described the atmosphere in the 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:37.640 courtroom that day. The courtroom, you could have heard a 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.760 pin drop, Jak. It wasn't like that, But when we're 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.480 waiting for Angela, for the mother of the suspect who's 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:48.400 on trial, it was definitely quiet because everybody has always 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.200 thought that she was the mastermind behind all of this, 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.639 and I think that was one thing that they were 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.720 anticipating coming out. And there was also the tension of 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.000 knowing a mother and her son, we're going to see 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.160 each other for the first time with her testifying against him, 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.280 So there was a lot of tension and very very 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.040 quiet in that courtroom when we're waiting for her to 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.160 take the stand. When she sat down, she didn't even 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.720 look at George, and George pretty much looked like he 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.880 had his eyes down the entire time. Angela Wagner chose 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.360 to opt out of having her testimony recorded. Therefore, the 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.600 only people who heard her testimony were the jury, the judge, 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.079 the respective attorneys, and the family and media that were 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.480 present in the courtroom. Here's Jeff speaking with annge Neette Levy, 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:36.720 investigative reporter and host for Long Crime. They opted out 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.920 because they could. They thought it was completely ridiculous. You're 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:44.200 a cooperating witness, you're convicted, you should be forced to 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:48.160 get up there and face the music on camera. But 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.320 he recorded all of these road and family members got 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:56.200 up there and bared their souls and were recorded. And 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.200 you know, why shouldn't he and Angela have to do 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.520 the same. Does the jury know who opt in and 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.400 opts out? No? I don't believe so, because the bailiff 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.800 would go over and tell the photographer or tell members 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:14.080 of the media who opted and who opted out. Here's 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:18.400 forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. It's so very easy 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:22.080 to forget the Rodents. And I guess on a spiritual 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.360 level of since this all kind of kicked off, I've 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:29.080 always imagined every single member of that family in a 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:33.680 spiritual form, sitting on the front row watching seeing if 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.240 they're going to receive any level of justice, and this 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:43.840 is part of that justice. These people whose poor, poor victims, 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:48.120 They deserve to have each individual story told when it 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:52.159 comes to their deaths. This is a mass murder. You know, 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.640 their lives ended it at the end of the muzzle 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.480 of the weapon and cut short, every single one of them, 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.400 every singing. They still be here where there's today. I 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.160 have no doubt, you know, and they deserved their due. 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.520 Prosecutor Angie Kneppa begins her opening remarks for the day. 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.880 We said that if anyone else came forward and could 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.120 tell us something that was consistent with what we had 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.600 just heard, that would do two things for us, and 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:22.400 it would just be stronger corroborating evidence that another member 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.560 of the Wagner family was giving us the same information 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:33.120 without knowing exactly what Jake had said, right, And that 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.640 person that came forward was Angela Wagner. Kneppa comes right 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.000 out of the gate with the question everyone has been 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.719 wondering about. One thing that really stuck out to me 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.360 was they approached her much differently than they did Jake. 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.360 At the very very beginning, at the very opening of 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.320 her testimony, they asked a point blank, are you guilty 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.560 of taking part in these murders? Yes? Did you help 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.560 plan them? Yes? Did you help prepare for or yes? 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:06.520 Did you aid in a bet? Yes? Who else apart 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.400 my husband Billy my son is George and Jake. So 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.719 suffice it to say, all four of you were involved 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:17.680 in these homicides that night. Yes, she was out point blank, 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.599 are you guilty of aggravated murder? She said, yes, we 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:26.080 all are. That was a really key moment. Here's Mike Allen, 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.360 attorney and legal analyst who's been following the case from 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.839 the beginning. I think the fact that Angie Kaneppa asked 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:38.080 the question are you guilty and the answer from Angela 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.760 was yes, That's a big part of her testimony and 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:45.240 I think just getting that out up front lets the 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.360 jury know that, you know, she's not messing around here, 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.120 and she's admitting to her involvement in it, not necessarily 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.800 firing any weapons, but she was in it up to 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.640 her neck, and that was established early on in her testimony. 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:03.599 Special Prosecutor Kneppa asked Angela Wagner about her childhood here 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:08.440 again Stephanie. Angela said, this is the first time I 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:12.440 had heard this. She has sort of this messy relationship 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.680 with her own father because she was feuding with him 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:20.440 a bit about having sex. Then she goes to the 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:25.920 military and is sexually assaulted, leaves there and gets married 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.239 very quickly with Billy, and she speaks of frankly Billy 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.880 and her grand babies and her son's in a very 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:39.680 loving manner. You know, she's really presenting today as a sweet, 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:45.560 loving mother. On the stand, Angela isn't quite what we expected. 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.160 She's soft spoken and as a bit of a baby talker, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:54.440 and instantly I was expecting a much bigger presence. Here's 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.520 Jeff and Angeanette. What do you make of that? Do 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.880 you think that's an act or do you think that 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.120 she's kind of changed in jail. I think she was 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.920 probably a nervous b doesn't want to be there. She 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.760 may be feeling badly about throwing her son under the bus, 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.200 implicating him in these homicides. But at the same time, 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.559 I think that she's a master manipulator. I think she's 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.800 good at playing a role when she has to. So 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:22.920 you don't really buy it. I mean, I don't buy 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.960 the meat mild mannered part of it. I think maybe 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.840 in that instance that was her, but she's just quiet 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.480 and soft spoken. Obviously, that's not what we've heard from 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:36.880 Angela Wagner on the wire taps, or what we heard 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:42.720 about Angela Wagner from Tabitha's testimony or Elizabeth Armer's testimony. 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:47.360 As we've talked about incessantly, she's been this monster in 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.000 our minds and certainly in mind. This is the big 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.440 bad wolf, right this is her day in court, and 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:56.560 this is the monster we've been talking about, and we 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.480 know that is true. She's admitted it. We've heard helpless 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:04.480 stories about it. I'm told it's coming. We're going to 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.600 see the crack in her very soon. But right now, 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.600 it's kind of like watching a movie in a way. 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:14.880 It's almost as though, what's that movie? Primal Fear? And 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.160 Edward Norton has sort of an interesting dialect, and he 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.640 has mannerisms that are very specific. And then at the 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:26.080 very end when he's proven to be innocent and you 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.000 find out that he's, ah, I was lying the whole time, 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.160 and he doesn't have an accent. He was just pretending 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.559 to be this completely different person. And it feels like 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.319 she's that right now. And I have to be honest 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.120 with you, it's very believable. You know, we've been tracking 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.679 this case so closely, and then you look at jurors 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:48.520 and you have to hope they're not buying it. Here again, 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.120 James Filcher. The juxtaposition between what you heard on tape 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.640 and what she presented in person was much much different, 0:09:56.120 --> 0:10:01.080 much more low key, much calmer, much more meat. As 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:07.680 for her demeanor, again, she's there to save her life 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.680 but also the lives of her family as part of 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.360 her plea deal, So she obviously is going to be 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.120 on her best behavior. So I think that was part 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:16.560 of it. But I also think part of it she 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.080 was probably on her meds and she admitted that. During 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:28.839 cross examination, Prosecutor Kneppa asked Angela Wagner about when Jake 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.640 and George were children. Wagner testifies that she didn't think 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:34.920 George and Jake were getting the one on one attention 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.959 they needed at public school, so she and Billy decided 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.280 to homeschool them, and they began by interrogating her about 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.480 how she raised Jake and George, explaining that she homeschooled 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.280 them both until high school while their father, Billy Wagner, 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:49.959 allegedly taught them how to steal from trucks and trailers. 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.800 There's obviously a lack of socialization there. I mean, these 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.440 kids were raised and when I say kids, Jake and 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:03.160 George and this kind of upbringing where they were homeschooled 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.120 and didn't really have a lot of exposure to the 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:10.080 outside world. Of course, they knew people outside of their family, 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.080 but not many. They didn't really have a lot of 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.760 friends outside of you know, people who worked at the 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.280 Flying w and things like that. So they didn't have 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:23.240 a quote unquote normal childhood. And there's questions about the curriculum. 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.920 They were taught that they needed to be there deferential 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.520 and polite, not to act up, things like that, but 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:33.600 it was almost in a way that they were taught 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.440 these things so that they could get away with crimes 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.400 and not necessarily so they could be good human beings. 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.400 We heard about some of this education in Jake's testimony. 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:47.600 Angela Wagner's testimony expands it on the family dynamic. She 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.000 speaks about how the family would set fires to their 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:55.760 properties and file insurance claims. That was one thing that 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.360 the prosecution did too, and they did it with Jake, 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.480 but they did it more with Angela, and that is 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:05.880 they clearly laid out how Angela was involved and planned 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:11.880 several criminal acts leading up to all of this, including 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:16.040 the arsons. They rebuilt the house again up there on 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.960 Fredrica's property, and Fredrika said, well, I'm going to sell 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.439 the property and you're not going to really be compensated 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.520 for the house. And at that point Angela said, I 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.760 don't want anybody living this dream house that we built 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.160 with our own bare hands. So they burned it down 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.280 for the insurance money, and they walked through all of that. 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.680 It's interesting because the way Kneppa did this was chronological, 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.080 and Angela's towards the end of this trial, and so 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.880 it's almost like she's confirming all the things that we've heard. 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.960 They talked about the insurance for the fires, all of 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.160 these pieces that we've heard about. Angela's like, yes, that happened, Yes, 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.200 that happened, Yes, that happened. What do you make of that? 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.440 I think miss Kannappa was doing that on purpose to 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:59.960 show that the testimony, Angela's testimony job with the physical 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.520 call evidence in the case. And I think it was 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.599 a good strategy because it did line up in her testimony, 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.880 I mean pretty solidly. So I think that was a 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.640 good strategy. And again, as I said, I think Angela 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.760 came off as pre credible. The defense lean did on 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:21.880 these planned arsons during cross examination. Here's James Pilcher, followed 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.880 by Stephanie. The defense started its cross examination by leaning 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:31.680 into Angela's previous criminal acts, including Arson's for insurance money, shoplifting, 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:35.400 and helping steal diesel fuel and truckloads of goods. I 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.359 think it is going to prove to be very relevant. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.800 They're painting a picture of her, although she was very 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.160 sweet and cute all day. At the very end cross 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.959 examination happened, and that was a jaw dropper because George's 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.640 defense attorney it puts on a pretty good display and 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.720 kind of take us through Angela's early years and then 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.160 they start getting into where she lives and how they 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.600 ended up at the house in the end that she lived, 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.040 which was Pugs. What he was painting the picture for 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:08.040 was that, Yeah, she has in fact burned down by Arson. 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.800 Three houses. She had to admit to that today in 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:13.880 the court of law. He was like, this house was 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.000 very expensive. How did you get the money for this house? Oh? Wait, 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:21.520 didn't the house before this house? What happened to that house? Oh, 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.040 it burnt down, But how did you get the money 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.880 for that house? Oh? The house before that, Oh that 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.800 one burned down? So three houses, and I think a 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:35.280 garage all burnt down. You got insurance money for all 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:41.760 of them. On cross examination, the defense asks Angela Wagner 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:46.880 if Jake and George were involved in the arsons. Angela's response, yes, 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:49.640 but who gives a damn? By the way, when all 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:54.520 these arsons were happening, George was one time he was sixteen, 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.920 one time George was fifteen, Like George was in the 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:02.520 home during these shenanigans. Angela also testified about other crimes 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.240 she's committed with Billy in front of the boys, including 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:09.640 pill running. Prosecutor Kneppa asks Angela Wagner if she's ever 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:14.440 stolen fuel, before Angela responds yes, she was the lookout. 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.520 Angela also testified that Billy taught the boys had a 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.240 safe and fuel. I think that they see themselves as 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:26.680 engaging in and just fible outlawry. If you, if you 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.920 will that you know the government is all bad. We're 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.440 really representative of the working people you know here in 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.080 this community. You know it's cliche, but you know our 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.360 family has been here for generations. We know we don't 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:43.400 know what the real story is here. We know that 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.320 you're not going to get ahead in this world and 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.480 this hardscrabb of life that we're leading. You're not going 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.320 to get ahead in this world unless you you steal, 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.040 going to some hard working families home or the farm 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:59.560 and robin them, or burglarizing and taking what is not 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.360 there and being able to justify that. It's you know, 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.680 it's a real Lord of the Flies moment and its 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.560 survival of the fittists. And they've done that. You know, 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.920 Lord knows how many people that had actually stolen from 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.680 in that community. You know, you you think about things 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:19.400 just uh, you know, two by fours and wood paneling 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.360 and you know, going out to job sites and essentially 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.200 robbing hard working people of the things that they need 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.440 to get by on. It sounds like the Old West 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.960 because they had even gotten involved in poaching and cattle 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.240 rustling of all things, you know, student livestock. So that's 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.240 an operation. That's that's not a one man operation, is it. 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.400 That's that's that's a lot of work. It's not like 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.920 little Jake is just running around doing all of this 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.680 stuff with this crazy father. You gotta have multiple hands 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:52.440 on the wheel here. And I think that you know, 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:56.920 this goes to George and this this thievery, this you know, 0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:59.840 nefarious behaviors. It's like a virus. I think that just 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.560 it spreads like wildfire through a family because you know, 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.119 it's the children bear witnessed it when they're grown up 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.040 in the home, and they know that this is just 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.199 part of life, that they're involved in it, and you 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.080 know what, it was probably normal for them to go 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:18.159 and take food out of people's mouths. There's a question 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.080 of whether this kind of testimony about Jake and George's 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.880 upbringing is making them sympathetic to the jury. Here again 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.399 Joseph Morgan, followed by Angeinette Levy, for George an appoint 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.160 in his life that he was at he was still 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.520 going to be bullied by Billy and potentially by Angela 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.560 as well. I think Angela is probably chief amongst centers here. 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.240 He just couldn't get out of his own way. And 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:44.760 so I guess if the jury can take away some 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.840 bit of sympathy for George as he's you know, he's 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.959 he's own trial there in the courthouse, I guess that's 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.639 that's probably where it would come from. There may have 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:56.960 been a little bit of sympathy, but I don't think 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.119 there was a whole lot. I mean, you can have 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:02.280 sympathy for somebody, but when you take part in killing 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.639 eight people, sorry, that all goes out the window. It 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:12.040 might be an explanation, but it doesn't excuse it. We're 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.439 going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.240 The prosecution asks Angela about her relationship with her daughter 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.800 in laws. We've heard in previous testimony how George's ex wife, 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.520 Tabitha was essentially cut off from her child by the 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.960 Wagner family. We've also heard about how Angela claimed to 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.919 love Hannah may Roden like a daughter, but there was 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.800 friction over custody of the child she shared with Jake. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.480 We've spoken before about how Angela wanted to spy on 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:50.000 Hannah Rodin's Facebook activity. Prosecutor Kneppa asked how she got 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:54.160 access to her passwords to monitor Facebook. According to Angela, 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:58.679 she asked Jake and he gave it to her. Joseph 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:03.360 Scott Morgan. She controlled everything, and he controlled everything, even 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.200 down to the relationships that you know that she had, 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.800 that her sons had, you know, outside the home, you know, 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.480 with these women that came into their lives, and when 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:17.480 you're in a position of power where you can control people, 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:23.119 to the point where their romantic interest is trumped by 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:27.920 your ability to manipulate them, where you would be willing to, 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.680 you know, at her direction, compel your lovers to give 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:37.239 over passwords and access. Just that one point alone is 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:41.720 really eye catching. Angela used this access to social media 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.320 to share screenshots about custody of her granddaughter with the family. 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:49.199 She was also trying to get information on Tabitha, George 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.560 Wagner's ex wife. This is not what she said, but 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:56.280 she's intimating that she's just protecting her boys away from 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:00.400 these bad girls. Essentially, he's a reminder of what Angela 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.640 Wagner said when she was recorded by the BCI at 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:08.679 the Canadian border. So your relationship with Hannah was good. Now, 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.280 I thought she was a sport wrap. But I thought 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.440 she was a sport wrap because she really was. I mean, no, 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:16.520 that's that she was her dad's ever get away with 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.800 every n I WoT, she would give me looks and 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.440 she would smarrow and she would tell Jacob was being mean, 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.959 and you know, but that's typical teenager. Sometimes Mothera was 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:34.639 and ye time and time again, Wagner would bring it 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.679 back to how her family was everything to her. And 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:41.520 informed everything she did. But the prosecution brings up an 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.919 incident with Tabitha that we haven't heard about before. Here's 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:50.160 Jeff speaking with lawng Crimes Ajeanette Levy. She also said 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.640 some weird things about Tabby. Angie Kneppa asked her about 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:57.119 Tabby and said, you know, did Tabby ever try to 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.960 poison you or anything like that. She's like, yes, and 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.520 she was just adamant about it, just like Jake was 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:06.800 adamant like about certain things. She said. She described how 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:11.119 Tabby one time put dog hair in her coffee, and 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.960 she and Jake liked a particular type of vanilla coffee, 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.200 and she said she had her coffee cup one time 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.000 and Tabby had made this cup for her and she 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.840 looked at it and she, you know, she said, Jake, 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.679 is there, there's dog hair in this coffee. And she 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.280 was serious as could be, and she said Tabby was 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.159 laughing about it. She described another time where Tabby had 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.600 made some kool aid for George that he liked and 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.840 he got really sick. So she has these like things 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:43.400 that she kind of comes up with. The dog hair 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.040 in the coffee thing was just astounding to me. She 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:48.880 truly believed that. I don't know if it actually happened. 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:52.640 I can't imagine somebody putting dog hair in somebody's coffee. 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.800 Just seems like such a strange thing, But they believe it. 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.640 It's gospel. This belief in the untrue and the ability 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.840 to convince her family of it, is one of Angela's strengths, 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.560 according to forensic examiner Joseph Markin. You know, you think 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.960 about Billy, and you know Billy's they're teaching young Jake 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.720 how to hot wire car and sealing it. Well, she's 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:19.120 doing the same thing. It's justifiable for you to betray 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:21.320 somebody that you claim to love if it's for the 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.480 greater good of the family. And so it's amazing how 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:30.080 you can psychologically leverage somebody with information like that, isn't it? 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:33.480 Where you can be the driver that you have this 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.399 endwelling inertia, you know that carries over to the family 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:38.840 and push him in the direction which you so desire. 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:43.560 It was one belief in particular that Angela held that 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:45.720 helped set in motion the events that led to the 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:51.399 murder of the Manly and Gilly families. Angela testified she 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:55.280 became worried her granddaughter was being abused while staying with 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:59.400 the Roden family. She said, quote, I realized something was happening, 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:02.320 some kind of abuse was going on that needed to 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:05.480 be stopped. Agela Wagner was asked if she loved Hannah. 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:08.640 She said, yes, I did at one point, but issues 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:11.880 made me feel like it was being sexually abused. Angela 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:15.040 said she became concerned over signs of abuse and claims 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:17.719 that her grandchild would often appear reluctant to leave and 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.480 return to Hannah since they had shared custody. James Pilcher 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:26.080 here's her direct quote. She said, I realized something was happening, 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:28.520 some kind of abuse was going on that needed to 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:32.640 be stopped. And she said she didn't trust child services 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.800 or the law, our law enhorsement, and neither did her husband, Billy. 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:41.600 We've already established that Billy was a doomsday or Billy 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:46.760 hated police. Billy paid his kids to spot police. Billy 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.800 taught his kids how to be thieves, so this all 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:52.520 fed into it. Although Angela didn't want to kill him, 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:54.439 some of the ways she would answer, she was like, 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:56.800 well why did you do this? We were protecting and 0:23:57.480 --> 0:23:59.720 she almost appeared like she was in a fog on 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.199 a stand. But then when it got to that, it 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.280 was almost like she was razor white hot when she 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:08.680 would talk about protecting that little girl, and then they 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:12.800 talked about Angela's passed in the Air Force and all 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:18.399 of this surrounding ever present fear of sexual abuse, and 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:21.280 it became almost a paranoia and you could see it 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:27.800 in display clearly when she started talking about that. So 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:31.960