WEBVTT - Part Two: Lord Haw-Haw: Hitler's Favorite Anglo Propagandist 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:09.440 Also media, Welcome back to Behind the Bastards podcast about 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:13.120 the very worst people in all of history. And this 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.640 week we are on part two of our episodes on 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.760 Lord Haha and this is Reverse Bastards. I am sitting 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.400 in the guest chair this week and our host and 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.480 topic expert is Padrick or Rourke. Welcome back to the show. 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.040 Thank you so much for doing this, and yeah, I'm 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:32.960 excited to see how this guy becomes the mouthpiece of 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:35.800 the German fascist movement in the UK. 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.080 Thanks very much, Robert, I hope, and thanks for having 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.560 me back. I'm hoping part one. Your ears aren't bleeding 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.960 from all my terrible British impressions that I'm not loading 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:46.360 them on to. 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.680 Things they're much better than mine. 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.640 My poor wife is upstairs putting the kids to bed 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.000 and they can hear me doing the accents. So now 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.760 both of my sons are like doing their best attempts 0:00:57.760 --> 0:00:59.960 at posh British accents and terrifying them. 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.120 Or mother just absolute hell for her. 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.200 Absolutely so she has it in surround sound anyway, So 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.440 we're back for more bastardy. What do you think you're 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:14.399 excited for? Joyce's escapade so far? And see where he's 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.080 going to end up, right, sure, yeah so Iheart's lawyers 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.720 reached out to me after the last recording and demanded 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.840 I make no more Prince Andrew jokes, So no sweat. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.479 Returning to this week's bastard, William Joyce. When we left 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.479 at the end of Heart One, all of his political 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.440 projects that he had ever gotten involved in had ended 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.920 in disaster. In the early nineteen thirties, he was an 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.240 insignificant and embittered high school teacher, spouting conspiracy theories to 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.040 anyone who would listen, whiles cheating on his wife with 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.960 one of his students when he found another would be 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:02.520 Messiah enter stage right, Sir Oswald Mosley. Now. Regular listeners 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.920 to the podcast will know that Oswald Tommy Moseley six 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.400 foot two was a British aristocrat who became the youngest 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:13.520 ever sitting member of Parliament in the nineteen eighteen British 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:18.040 general election. Roberts, did you know that in the mid 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.600 nineteen twenties Moseley was a fishing body of future American 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:22.800 President FDR. 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:24.720 I did not know that. 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:27.640 Yeah. I just sent you an email there with a 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.840 photo if you want to open it up. This is 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.240 their beach party. How would you describe this to the listeners? 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:38.720 It looks like a Christian rock album cover. It looks 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:40.080 like a Christian rock album. 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.440 What would what would they call their band? 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:49.519 Oh my god, geez, I don't know, Yeah, the Apostles. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.280 I don't know what you do? It looks like I 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.400 don't know how else to describe it, like you have. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.480 I think that's FDR there in the middle, who's like 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.480 sitting in the water with his arm up in like 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.120 a prayer gesture. You have which one of those is 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:09.120 that Crosby in the right or is that Mosley? 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.040 I think that's I think that's Moseley. 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.680 Yeah, he's like half kneeling with again his hands up 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.480 in prayer. And then the third guy, Crosby I guess, 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:19.320 is laying on his back with his legs in the air, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.399 and they're all just kind of like like flat against 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.120 like right in the like the tidepool level of the ocean. 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:29.040 It looks like, Yeah, do you imagine the kind of 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:31.240 selfies they would have taken if they had had smart. 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.679 Who No, no, but it would have gotten them all canceled, 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.720 Like FDR would never have been the president. They would 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:39.120 have all gotten in horrible trouble. 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:44.840 Yeah. Basically, Mosley's first wife, Lady Cynthia Curzon, was totally 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.960 fucking famous. She was the daughter of a really famous 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.400 British lords, So that's probably how they met. But they's 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.120 vacation together for a month in Florida in February of 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:58.480 nineteen twenty six. However, their bodying political romance fell apart 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:02.640 when the two men adopted rad different positions on Hitler. 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:07.120 FDR would end up being yeah, would definitely end up 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:11.000 being anti Hitler, while Moseley remained very much pro Hitler, 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.080 so much so that in nineteen thirty two, Moseley founded 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:19.320 the British Union of Fascists or BUF. Sure did, and 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.440 you've done I think two episodes on this guy, Robert 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.039 or three even so obviously check those out listeners if 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.640 you want more on on Moseley. Moseley attempted to merge 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:35.719 all of the veterans of the Nassian fascist movement in 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.560 the UK together in the BUF. Now, the British Union 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.719 of Fascists or BUF was heavily influenced by Italian fascists. 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.560 The buf's uniform consisted of a black fencing jacket and 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:52.040 black trousers. The BUF also adopted the so called Roman 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.279 salute in the nineteen twenties. The Italian Fascists were the 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.800 first political movement to adopt the salute, which was later 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.720 made famous by the Nazis and recently brought back into 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:07.960 vogue by Richard Spencer, Steve Bannon and Elon Musk. Moseley's 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:10.960 Black Shirts adopted the salute, but added their own unique 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.919 British element to the gesture by shouting pj whilst giving 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:19.440 it short not for pajamas but perish Judah. The motto 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:24.000 of Moseley's new organization was loyalty to the King and 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.120 Empire and the building of the Greater Britain. And of 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:31.640 course William Joyce loved all of this and he joined immediately. 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.600 Throughout his life, Joyce had one phenomenal, godlike talent which 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.560 he used frequently but never used for good. He was 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.880 an incredible orator, a unique talent, possibly one of the 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.760 greatest speakers of his generation. He could speak without notes 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.640 for several hours if necessary, without faltering or losing his 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.920 train of thought. Once, at one BUF rally in Eveson, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:01.839 he spoke for over four hours, but one raptured onlooker commenting. 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:05.039 People stayed for the whole length of the speech out 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.880 of sheer curiosity to see how long he could keep 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:08.279 it up. 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.000 There wasn't a lot going on back then. I didn't 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:16.159 have Netflix or anything, you know, there wasn't Yeah, it 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:17.760 was easy to keep people in a line. 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:23.640 Yeah. Everyone, political opponents, rivals in the fascist movement. Everyone agrees. 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:25.760 This man is an incredible speaker. 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:27.200 And the journalist makes sense. 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.960 Cecil Roberts, who witnessed him speak, recalled quote. I have 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.000 been a connoisseur of speechmaking for over a quarter of 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.720 a century, but never before had I met a personality 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:43.440 so terrifying in its dynamic force, so vituperative, so vitriolic. 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.080 The words poured from him in a corrosive state. We 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.760 listened in a kind of frozen hypnotism to his cold, 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:55.159 stabbing voice. There was a gleam of marat in his eyes, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.960 and his eloquence took on a satanic ring, with which 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.080 he invoked the rise rat of his audience against the 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:06.120 festering scum who, by cowardice and sloth, had reduced the 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:11.240 British Empire to a marabaud thing. So Joyce's fame as 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:16.040 a speaker spread well beyond the BUF, and even political 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:20.480 opponents came to here. One such was John Beckett, former 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.520 Labor Party Member of Parliament quote. I first saw him 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:28.040 in nineteen thirty three at a crowded meeting at Paddington Bats. 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.760 I had left political life and the Labor Party in 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:36.040 disgust two years previously, but within ten minutes of this 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.280 twenty seven year old taking the platform, I knew he 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:43.200 was one of the finest orators in the country. He 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.840 had the trade unionist and Labour MP Philip Snowden's close 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.640 reasoning and on nurring instinct for words, combined with the 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:55.640 Scottish pacifist James Maxton's humor and the conservative Winston Churchill's 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.360 dairy His great audience assembled to hear a speaker quite 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.200 unknown in the political world, and the enthusiasm he created 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.720 was an eye opener for me. Beckett was the son 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.080 of a Christian father and a Jewish mother. He had 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:11.680 come to the meeting as a curious left wing opponent, 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.880 and he departed a committed fascist and soon joined the 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:21.600 BUF after hearing Joyce speak, that's a rare holy talent. 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.360 Joyce's oratory brilliants led his fellow black Shirts, hailing him 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:33.240 as quote the Mighty Atom, the Master, the Professor, and 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:38.480 most chillingly, the man without a soul. Yeah. 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.719 I mean they like the boot licking goes down all 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.800 the way with these people, right like they're they're that's 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:46.600 kind of key to the fascist things. You have to 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.600 have someone that you're like embarrassingly dick writing for and 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:51.640 in this case like that's that's what it means to 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:53.760 be a leader within these movements is to have a 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:57.280 bunch of people making up the most cringe worthy praise 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.960 in nicknames for you. They possibly could. It's the it's 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.600 the old timey equivalent of fucking having an AI make 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:03.880 Donald Trump look jacked. 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.800 Yeah, the man without his soul. The only other nickname 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.040 I can compare it to for the time is Hitler 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:13.240 calling Reinhart Heydrich the man with the iron heart. 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.600 The man with the iron heart. Yeah, yeah man. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:21.720 Anyway. Amongst Moseley's adoring fascist fans was Margaret White, an 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.439 organizer of the women's section of the BUF, and within 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.160 days of first meeting the two began an affair. Joyce 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.640 eventually dumped his first wife, Hazel, to take Margaret as 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:36.360 his second wife. His pet name for her was mother Sheep, 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.800 and she in turn referred to him lovingly as the 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:44.240 old Ram. Margaret later boasted that she was like a 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.880 dom and Joyce was her sub and that he was 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.679 pathologically devoted to her. She did not know, of course, 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.520 that Joyce, true to form, soon started an affair with 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:59.240 another fascist fangirl named Sylvia Morris. So these two, Margaret 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.440 and William choice are just one of the most toxic 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.680 couples ever and they both constantly cheat on the other. Now, look, 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.920 I'm not judging people. If that's their thing, open marriages 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:13.280 as a couple or whatever, that's your thing, fine, But 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.640 according to their joint biographer Nigel Farndale, this was done 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.040 by each of them without the consent of. 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.600 Yeah, they were. Part of the point was that they 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:24.680 were cheating on each other. That was important to both 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:26.360 of them that they be cheating. 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.720 Yeah, presumably that gives them the trill or whatever. She 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.600 was constantly cuckolding him and altered between pouring affection on 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:38.600 him mocking him, making him sexually jealous and frustrated. He 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.120 responded by screaming verbal abuse at her, conducting his own 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.560 illicit affairs and inflicting occasional bouts of domestic violence on her. 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.440 The fact that both of them were increasingly dysfunctional alcoholics 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.679 did not help matters in their very very fucked up 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:57.400 relationship with just got it increasingly worse the longer they 0:10:57.440 --> 0:10:58.040 were together. 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:00.839 Yeah, that scance makes sense now. 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:06.000 Moseley himself was no stranger to extramarital affairs, mistresses and 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.560 multiple spouses, and he also, of course shared Joyce's talent 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:16.720 for oratory. Moseley appointed Joyce the bus director of Propaganda, 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.480 which was a full time paid position paid about three 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.960 hundred pounds per year at a time when the average 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:28.160 construction worker would have made about one hundred and thirty 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.240 pounds per years. So he's doing quite well and this 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.000 allows Joyce to quit his teaching job and the vote 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:39.960 himself full time to politics. Mosley of course, never joined 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.680 in the adulation for Joyce, even though he respected his abilities. 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.000 He referred to Joyce as the little man now for 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.720 reference as well, Tommy Moseley, as we know, was six 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.240 foot two whilst Joyce was just five foot five, and 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:58.040 as Moseley's catty nickname for Joyce implies, the two men 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.880 had a fraud hyper para citic relationship, which was the 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.680 best term I could find online to describe their dynamic. 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.679 Not a psychologist, but they're just two guys who were 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:14.560 grifting off each other in an unending competition. Whilst Joyce 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.640 had been drawn to the Leader or Moseley by his 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.720 strong man image and the promise of a new fascist 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.560 British empire, he felt that Moseley was too soft on 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.400 the Irish question because Moseley was not calling for the 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.880 British Army to reinvade Southern Ireland. On a political level, 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:38.480 Moseley admired Joyce's manic energy, his intelligence and dedication to 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:42.760 the b UF, but an issue arose because of Joyce's fanatical, 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:48.280 uncompromising and unhinged anti Semitic rhetoric. As the BUF grew 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.320 in popularity, its public image was increasingly tarnished by a 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.800 wave of anti Semitic attacks by the BUF in the 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.760 East End of London, and of course the rising tide 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:03.560 of anti Jewish Violin and Pilgrims in Nazi Germany. In 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.160 response to this, Moseley turned down his own anti Semitic 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.720 remarks and repeatedly had to urge Joyce to do the same. 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.840 And let's face it, you have a serious problem if 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.040 Oswald Moseley, the British hitler, is telling you to dial 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:18.440 down the anti Jewish stuff. 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.080 Yeah, yeah, you're going a little hard man. 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:27.439 Moseley, on a personal level, was wary of Joyce's popularity 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.280 within the movement, and he viewed him as a potential 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:31.640 threat to his leadership. 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.760 Regular bad the weaknesses these movements always have. When you 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.000 have two guys who are really good at the whole 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.560 being charismatic thing, they inevitably fall out, right, you can't 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:41.600 have two fewers. 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:46.600 Yeah, they love a good furor fight. Yeah, regular bastards. 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.760 Bad listeners will recall that Moseley served in World War 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.360 One as a member of the Royal Flying Corps and 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.160 he crashed his aeroplane whilst doing a loop the loop 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:57.880 to show off to his mother and sister who were 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:02.800 watching him fly an aeroplane in an aerobatic display. As 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.040 a result of this self inflicted war wound, Moseley developed 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.440 phlebiatis in his leg, which flared up from time to time. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.400 On one occasion, phlebiatis was so painful that he was 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.200 not able to walk or stand to deliver a speech. 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:17.400 At a major black. 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:21.120 Shirt Rather, what is phlebiitis? Because my only reference point 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:24.000 is a joke they made with the Nixon character and Futurama. 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.000 What what are we talking about here? 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:30.040 It's basically if you get a now, not a medical doctor, 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.400 but my understanding because I looked it up for this 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:37.960 is if you get a broken bone and it doesn't 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.160 heal properly, it can affect the nerves in the area 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.000 around it, and the nerves and the muscle can swell, 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.240 so your leg could swell up so much so that 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.640 it's painful to move the joint. Gadget, gadget. Not a 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.160 medical doctor. But that's that's what I could figure out 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.640 from from a quick a quick google. P H L 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.880 E B I T I S. Don't make my word first, 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.520 go google it yourself, or ask your physician. 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.360 Or say the word while doing a Nixon accent. You'll 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.080 you'll appreciate why it's such a good bit. 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:14.320 Okay, that's think that now. On one occasion, it was 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.280 so painful he was not able to walk or stand 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:20.080 to deliver a speech at a major Backshirt rally. Joyce 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:23.040 took his place at the last moment, giving a rousing 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.840 oration as good, if not better than anything Moseley could 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.920 have delivered. Joyce was such a good stand in that 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.920 Moseley increasingly saw him as a threat and was now 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.000 determined to keep the little man in line or to 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.360 get rid of him altogether. Moseley got the opportunity to 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:42.960 dismiss Joyce in late thirteen six, in the wake of 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.240 the Fascist defeat at the Battle of Cable Street. Between 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.360 nineteen thirty three and nineteen thirty six, Mussolini had sent 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:56.320 Moseley a secret annual stipend of sixty thousand pounds per 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:00.160 annam again remember Jesus, Yeah, Jesus had no. 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:01.600 That's a lot of money back then. 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.800 Yeah, it's you're talking again. One hundred and thirty pounds 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:09.200 for a construction workers annual wage and Mosley is getting 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:10.440 sixty grand. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.760 And that's a shitload back then. 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.560 Yeah, So it gets laundered to Moseley through the London 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:20.680 Bank account of William Allen, who's a former Belfast Loyalist 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.880 member of Parliament who had joined the British Union of Fascists. 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:30.680 So but after the Battle of Cable Street, Mussolini regarded 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.880 Moseley as a failure and he cut off the funds 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.960 in nineteen thirty seven. Though Moseley did later get financial 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:42.640 support from the Nazis, it never matched Mussolini's generosity, and 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:47.320 this left Moseley in financial difficulty. So when he announced cutbacks, 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.800 the very first thing that had to go was the 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.480 bus Department of Propaganda, which Joyce had been director of 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.800 with an annual salary of three hundred pounds. The loss 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.480 of this wage was the last straw for Joyce, who 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.240 already suspicious that Mosley was quote too soft on the 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:08.480 Jewish question. So in nineteen thirty seven, Joyce adopted friend 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.919 of the Pod Adolf Hitler as his new political messiah, 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.720 and he left the BUF to form his own organization 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.800 called the National Socialist League with John Beckett, the secretly 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:25.040 half Jewish former Socialist MP that I mentioned earlier. Now, Rob, 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.560 what is the one thing that the Nazis in particular 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.320 have always been streets ahead of compared to other political movements. 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:38.200 I mean, I guess I would say, like turning political 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.560 violence into electoral success. 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.440 Yeah, that's that's that's one thing. I was thinking more 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.720 along the lines of style. 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.440 Oh my god, Yeah, the outfits Jesus Christ. They looked 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:52.400 so I mean fucking just look at the fascists we're 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:58.240 dealing with today, Like yeah, and honestly, Mussolini's brow. Mussolini 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:01.639 not a great looking movement, weird looking outfits. But the 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:03.920 Nazis they had tailors. 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:08.119 They had it. Hugo Boss was making their their uniforms. Yeah. 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:12.159 So I think again of how powerful the swastka was 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.959 as a symbol, and I think you covered this before, 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.919 And think of how evil, cool and genocidely stylish the 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.280 SS look in their black uniforms. 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.080 And that was a big reason why people joined them, right, 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:25.679 You get a lot of early sessmen were like, well, 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.119 I thought the uniforms looked cool, like that kind of 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:33.280 my politics descended from me wanting to look cool. Of 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.639 many such cases, unfortunately, that's it. 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:40.200 So speaking of of of you know, brilliant symbolism and style, 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.359 I have sent you the if you look in the 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:49.080 emails the logo that that William Joyce designed for the 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:50.560 National Socialist League. 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.159 Yes, so I'm looking at it, and honestly it it 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.720 looks more like the logo for a prey away the 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.560 gay camp. There's a bunch of like I would I 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.600 know what it supposed to be. It looks like like 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.359 about four or five four to six rolling pins are 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.760 are forming like like almost like a Star of David 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.439 type design with like a blue circle around them, and 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.600 then the words steer straight underneath it. I know that 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.199 the rolling pins are actually supposed to be like a 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:21.440 like a ship's and ships right, yeah, what with England 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:23.760 and the Navy being such a big deal, But just 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.359 the whole steer straight thing, it looks like it's a 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:28.560 It looks like a prey away the gay camp logo. 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:31.359 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I mean think of it even 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.000 steer straight as a motto like the Nazis have deutschkan 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.040 de ervach, you know, Germany awake, and these guys have 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.600 steer Straight. But Roberts. Do you know who else has 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:41.440 a dogshit logo? 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.200 Well, I mean look, it was a long time ago 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.320 when we got the logo for this podcast. I've done 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:49.080 all right for us. 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.840 I was going to say, not the sponsors of this 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:53.760 of this podcast. 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.040 Oh yeah, yeah, good logos only unless it's the Washington State. 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:57.920 I would patrol again. 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:12.399 So in nineteen thirty eight, Joyce hoped that his movement 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.480 with a shitty ships wheel logo would grow to replace 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.920 Moseley's and that he would become the future British fuelure. 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:25.000 The problem was that Moseley had forty thousand black Shirts, 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:30.120 whilst Joyce's splinter group had just forty one. Former comrade 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:32.920 from the BUF came to see Joyce and Beckett speaking 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.240 one day and recalled quote. They were at a street corner, 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:40.680 with Joyce standing on a platform and speaking from it, 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:45.200 with Beckett the only spectator pretending to be an opposition Heckler. 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.560 It was their way of trying to attract some controversy 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:53.159 and to generate an audience for their open air meeting. 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.399 What a terrible come down. It was from the great 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.879 BUF meetings attended by thousands that I had seen the 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:05.480 men speaking at. So Joyce writes the party's policy document 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:11.040 entitled National Socialism Now, in which he declared his devotion 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:15.560 to Hitler but stressed that an indigenous form of Nazism 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.480 was required for Britain. Quote, we are the only one 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:24.640 hundred percent British organization working with British people and British 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:28.960 funds for the rebuilding of Britain in a modern British way. 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:32.480 So basically he just wants it to be made very clear. 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:37.240 That he is definitely not Irish. From the foundation of 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:39.920 the party until the outbreak of the Second World War, 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.800 Joyce organized public meetings in London at which he disseminated 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:49.120 Nazi propaganda, but he failed to attract many supporters. Joyce's 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:53.600 meetings were mainly attended by hostile audiences. Joyce in flame 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.520 matters by singing God Save the King as a means 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.880 of ending each meeting, which was fairly customary across most 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.000 political parties in Britain at the time, but Joyce would 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.080 follow the national anthem by giving the Nazi salute and 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:11.760 shouting the National Socialist League. Sure, yeah, see how that 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:13.879 could come in nineteen thirty nine England. 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:16.920 Yeah, and you're on the pulse man. 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.600 The National Socialist League's lack of success meant that it 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.119 was soon de registered as a political party, and Joyce 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:28.400 re registered it as a drinking club. I didn't realize 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:30.760 you could formally found one of them in Britain, but 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:33.320 I suppose it's kind of like what the Proud Boys 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:38.280 have now. So he became increasingly depressed about the looming 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:41.400 prospect of war with Nazi Germany and was growing even 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:45.960 more dependent on alcohol. His last public meeting of the 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.960 National Socialist League in May of nineteen thirty nine ended 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.400 in chaos, with Joyce stood on stage giving the Nazi 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.920 salute and repeatedly screaming seek Hyle, before stage diving into 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:01.280 his audience in an attempt to punch Heckler. Joyce was 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.720 brought to court twice for assault, but neither case ever 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:09.879 proceeded to trial. Sounds like a screwdriver, gig or something. 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:14.240 In the autumn of nineteen thirty nine, as the threat 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:17.679 of war with Nazi Germany loomed, the British government passed 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:21.639 Regulation eighteen B to allow for the internment without trial 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:25.960 of potential fascist fifth columnists. On the afternoon of twenty 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:29.600 fourth of August nineteen thirty nine, Joyce received a phone 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:34.359 call warning him that he's internment had been approved and 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:38.119 that Five had been ordered to arrest him within forty 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.600 eight hours. It is widely believed that the tip off 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:45.280 to Joyce had come from Maxwell Knight, the head of 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:48.159 I five, who not only was the main source of 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:52.200 inspiration for the character m in Ian Flemings James Bond series, 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:56.200 he was also former friend and comrade of Joyce's from 0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.440 their time together in the early years of the British fascisty, 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:03.040