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Speaker 1: Also media, Welcome back to Behind the Bastards podcast about

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Speaker 1: the very worst people in all of history. And this

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Speaker 1: week we are on part two of our episodes on

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Speaker 1: Lord Haha and this is Reverse Bastards. I am sitting

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Speaker 1: in the guest chair this week and our host and

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Speaker 1: topic expert is Padrick or Rourke. Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing this, and yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to see how this guy becomes the mouthpiece of

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Speaker 1: the German fascist movement in the UK.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Robert, I hope, and thanks for having

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Speaker 2: me back. I'm hoping part one. Your ears aren't bleeding

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Speaker 2: from all my terrible British impressions that I'm not loading

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Speaker 2: them on to.

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Speaker 1: Things they're much better than mine.

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Speaker 2: My poor wife is upstairs putting the kids to bed

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Speaker 2: and they can hear me doing the accents. So now

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Speaker 2: both of my sons are like doing their best attempts

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Speaker 2: at posh British accents and terrifying them.

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Speaker 1: Or mother just absolute hell for her.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely so she has it in surround sound anyway, So

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Speaker 2: we're back for more bastardy. What do you think you're

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Speaker 2: excited for? Joyce's escapade so far? And see where he's

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Speaker 2: going to end up, right, sure, yeah so Iheart's lawyers

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Speaker 2: reached out to me after the last recording and demanded

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Speaker 2: I make no more Prince Andrew jokes, So no sweat.

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Speaker 2: Returning to this week's bastard, William Joyce. When we left

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Speaker 2: at the end of Heart One, all of his political

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Speaker 2: projects that he had ever gotten involved in had ended

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Speaker 2: in disaster. In the early nineteen thirties, he was an

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Speaker 2: insignificant and embittered high school teacher, spouting conspiracy theories to

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Speaker 2: anyone who would listen, whiles cheating on his wife with

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Speaker 2: one of his students when he found another would be

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Speaker 2: Messiah enter stage right, Sir Oswald Mosley. Now. Regular listeners

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Speaker 2: to the podcast will know that Oswald Tommy Moseley six

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Speaker 2: foot two was a British aristocrat who became the youngest

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Speaker 2: ever sitting member of Parliament in the nineteen eighteen British

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Speaker 2: general election. Roberts, did you know that in the mid

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenties Moseley was a fishing body of future American

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Speaker 2: President FDR.

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Speaker 1: I did not know that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I just sent you an email there with a

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Speaker 2: photo if you want to open it up. This is

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Speaker 2: their beach party. How would you describe this to the listeners?

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Speaker 1: It looks like a Christian rock album cover. It looks

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Speaker 1: like a Christian rock album.

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Speaker 2: What would what would they call their band?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, geez, I don't know, Yeah, the Apostles.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you do? It looks like I

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Speaker 1: don't know how else to describe it, like you have.

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Speaker 1: I think that's FDR there in the middle, who's like

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Speaker 1: sitting in the water with his arm up in like

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Speaker 1: a prayer gesture. You have which one of those is

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Speaker 1: that Crosby in the right or is that Mosley?

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Speaker 2: I think that's I think that's Moseley.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like half kneeling with again his hands up

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Speaker 1: in prayer. And then the third guy, Crosby I guess,

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Speaker 1: is laying on his back with his legs in the air,

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Speaker 1: and they're all just kind of like like flat against

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Speaker 1: like right in the like the tidepool level of the ocean.

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Speaker 2: It looks like, Yeah, do you imagine the kind of

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Speaker 2: selfies they would have taken if they had had smart.

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Speaker 1: Who No, no, but it would have gotten them all canceled,

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Speaker 1: Like FDR would never have been the president. They would

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Speaker 1: have all gotten in horrible trouble.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Basically, Mosley's first wife, Lady Cynthia Curzon, was totally

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Speaker 2: fucking famous. She was the daughter of a really famous

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Speaker 2: British lords, So that's probably how they met. But they's

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Speaker 2: vacation together for a month in Florida in February of

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty six. However, their bodying political romance fell apart

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Speaker 2: when the two men adopted rad different positions on Hitler.

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Speaker 2: FDR would end up being yeah, would definitely end up

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Speaker 2: being anti Hitler, while Moseley remained very much pro Hitler,

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Speaker 2: so much so that in nineteen thirty two, Moseley founded

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Speaker 2: the British Union of Fascists or BUF. Sure did, and

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Speaker 2: you've done I think two episodes on this guy, Robert

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Speaker 2: or three even so obviously check those out listeners if

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Speaker 2: you want more on on Moseley. Moseley attempted to merge

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Speaker 2: all of the veterans of the Nassian fascist movement in

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Speaker 2: the UK together in the BUF. Now, the British Union

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Speaker 2: of Fascists or BUF was heavily influenced by Italian fascists.

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Speaker 2: The buf's uniform consisted of a black fencing jacket and

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Speaker 2: black trousers. The BUF also adopted the so called Roman

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Speaker 2: salute in the nineteen twenties. The Italian Fascists were the

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Speaker 2: first political movement to adopt the salute, which was later

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Speaker 2: made famous by the Nazis and recently brought back into

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Speaker 2: vogue by Richard Spencer, Steve Bannon and Elon Musk. Moseley's

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Speaker 2: Black Shirts adopted the salute, but added their own unique

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Speaker 2: British element to the gesture by shouting pj whilst giving

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Speaker 2: it short not for pajamas but perish Judah. The motto

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Speaker 2: of Moseley's new organization was loyalty to the King and

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Speaker 2: Empire and the building of the Greater Britain. And of

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Speaker 2: course William Joyce loved all of this and he joined immediately.

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Speaker 2: Throughout his life, Joyce had one phenomenal, godlike talent which

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Speaker 2: he used frequently but never used for good. He was

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Speaker 2: an incredible orator, a unique talent, possibly one of the

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Speaker 2: greatest speakers of his generation. He could speak without notes

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Speaker 2: for several hours if necessary, without faltering or losing his

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Speaker 2: train of thought. Once, at one BUF rally in Eveson,

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Speaker 2: he spoke for over four hours, but one raptured onlooker commenting.

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Speaker 2: People stayed for the whole length of the speech out

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Speaker 2: of sheer curiosity to see how long he could keep

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Speaker 2: it up.

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Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot going on back then. I didn't

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Speaker 1: have Netflix or anything, you know, there wasn't Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was easy to keep people in a line.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Everyone, political opponents, rivals in the fascist movement. Everyone agrees.

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Speaker 2: This man is an incredible speaker.

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Speaker 1: And the journalist makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Cecil Roberts, who witnessed him speak, recalled quote. I have

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Speaker 2: been a connoisseur of speechmaking for over a quarter of

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Speaker 2: a century, but never before had I met a personality

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Speaker 2: so terrifying in its dynamic force, so vituperative, so vitriolic.

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Speaker 2: The words poured from him in a corrosive state. We

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Speaker 2: listened in a kind of frozen hypnotism to his cold,

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Speaker 2: stabbing voice. There was a gleam of marat in his eyes,

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Speaker 2: and his eloquence took on a satanic ring, with which

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Speaker 2: he invoked the rise rat of his audience against the

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Speaker 2: festering scum who, by cowardice and sloth, had reduced the

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Speaker 2: British Empire to a marabaud thing. So Joyce's fame as

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Speaker 2: a speaker spread well beyond the BUF, and even political

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Speaker 2: opponents came to here. One such was John Beckett, former

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Speaker 2: Labor Party Member of Parliament quote. I first saw him

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Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty three at a crowded meeting at Paddington Bats.

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Speaker 2: I had left political life and the Labor Party in

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Speaker 2: disgust two years previously, but within ten minutes of this

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Speaker 2: twenty seven year old taking the platform, I knew he

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Speaker 2: was one of the finest orators in the country. He

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Speaker 2: had the trade unionist and Labour MP Philip Snowden's close

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Speaker 2: reasoning and on nurring instinct for words, combined with the

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Speaker 2: Scottish pacifist James Maxton's humor and the conservative Winston Churchill's

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Speaker 2: dairy His great audience assembled to hear a speaker quite

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Speaker 2: unknown in the political world, and the enthusiasm he created

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Speaker 2: was an eye opener for me. Beckett was the son

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Speaker 2: of a Christian father and a Jewish mother. He had

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Speaker 2: come to the meeting as a curious left wing opponent,

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Speaker 2: and he departed a committed fascist and soon joined the

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Speaker 2: BUF after hearing Joyce speak, that's a rare holy talent.

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Speaker 2: Joyce's oratory brilliants led his fellow black Shirts, hailing him

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Speaker 2: as quote the Mighty Atom, the Master, the Professor, and

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Speaker 2: most chillingly, the man without a soul. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean they like the boot licking goes down all

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Speaker 1: the way with these people, right like they're they're that's

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Speaker 1: kind of key to the fascist things. You have to

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Speaker 1: have someone that you're like embarrassingly dick writing for and

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Speaker 1: in this case like that's that's what it means to

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Speaker 1: be a leader within these movements is to have a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people making up the most cringe worthy praise

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Speaker 1: in nicknames for you. They possibly could. It's the it's

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Speaker 1: the old timey equivalent of fucking having an AI make

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump look jacked.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the man without his soul. The only other nickname

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Speaker 2: I can compare it to for the time is Hitler

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Speaker 2: calling Reinhart Heydrich the man with the iron heart.

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Speaker 1: The man with the iron heart. Yeah, yeah man.

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Speaker 2: Anyway. Amongst Moseley's adoring fascist fans was Margaret White, an

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Speaker 2: organizer of the women's section of the BUF, and within

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Speaker 2: days of first meeting the two began an affair. Joyce

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Speaker 2: eventually dumped his first wife, Hazel, to take Margaret as

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Speaker 2: his second wife. His pet name for her was mother Sheep,

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Speaker 2: and she in turn referred to him lovingly as the

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Speaker 2: old Ram. Margaret later boasted that she was like a

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Speaker 2: dom and Joyce was her sub and that he was

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Speaker 2: pathologically devoted to her. She did not know, of course,

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Speaker 2: that Joyce, true to form, soon started an affair with

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Speaker 2: another fascist fangirl named Sylvia Morris. So these two, Margaret

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Speaker 2: and William choice are just one of the most toxic

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Speaker 2: couples ever and they both constantly cheat on the other. Now, look,

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Speaker 2: I'm not judging people. If that's their thing, open marriages

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Speaker 2: as a couple or whatever, that's your thing, fine, But

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Speaker 2: according to their joint biographer Nigel Farndale, this was done

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Speaker 2: by each of them without the consent of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they were. Part of the point was that they

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Speaker 1: were cheating on each other. That was important to both

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Speaker 1: of them that they be cheating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, presumably that gives them the trill or whatever. She

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Speaker 2: was constantly cuckolding him and altered between pouring affection on

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Speaker 2: him mocking him, making him sexually jealous and frustrated. He

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Speaker 2: responded by screaming verbal abuse at her, conducting his own

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Speaker 2: illicit affairs and inflicting occasional bouts of domestic violence on her.

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Speaker 2: The fact that both of them were increasingly dysfunctional alcoholics

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Speaker 2: did not help matters in their very very fucked up

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Speaker 2: relationship with just got it increasingly worse the longer they

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Speaker 2: were together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that scance makes sense now.

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Speaker 2: Moseley himself was no stranger to extramarital affairs, mistresses and

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Speaker 2: multiple spouses, and he also, of course shared Joyce's talent

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Speaker 2: for oratory. Moseley appointed Joyce the bus director of Propaganda,

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Speaker 2: which was a full time paid position paid about three

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Speaker 2: hundred pounds per year at a time when the average

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Speaker 2: construction worker would have made about one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 2: pounds per years. So he's doing quite well and this

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Speaker 2: allows Joyce to quit his teaching job and the vote

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Speaker 2: himself full time to politics. Mosley of course, never joined

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Speaker 2: in the adulation for Joyce, even though he respected his abilities.

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Speaker 2: He referred to Joyce as the little man now for

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Speaker 2: reference as well, Tommy Moseley, as we know, was six

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Speaker 2: foot two whilst Joyce was just five foot five, and

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Speaker 2: as Moseley's catty nickname for Joyce implies, the two men

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Speaker 2: had a fraud hyper para citic relationship, which was the

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Speaker 2: best term I could find online to describe their dynamic.

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Speaker 2: Not a psychologist, but they're just two guys who were

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Speaker 2: grifting off each other in an unending competition. Whilst Joyce

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Speaker 2: had been drawn to the Leader or Moseley by his

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Speaker 2: strong man image and the promise of a new fascist

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Speaker 2: British empire, he felt that Moseley was too soft on

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Speaker 2: the Irish question because Moseley was not calling for the

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Speaker 2: British Army to reinvade Southern Ireland. On a political level,

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Speaker 2: Moseley admired Joyce's manic energy, his intelligence and dedication to

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Speaker 2: the b UF, but an issue arose because of Joyce's fanatical,

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Speaker 2: uncompromising and unhinged anti Semitic rhetoric. As the BUF grew

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Speaker 2: in popularity, its public image was increasingly tarnished by a

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Speaker 2: wave of anti Semitic attacks by the BUF in the

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Speaker 2: East End of London, and of course the rising tide

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Speaker 2: of anti Jewish Violin and Pilgrims in Nazi Germany. In

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Speaker 2: response to this, Moseley turned down his own anti Semitic

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Speaker 2: remarks and repeatedly had to urge Joyce to do the same.

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Speaker 2: And let's face it, you have a serious problem if

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Speaker 2: Oswald Moseley, the British hitler, is telling you to dial

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Speaker 2: down the anti Jewish stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're going a little hard man.

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Speaker 2: Moseley, on a personal level, was wary of Joyce's popularity

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Speaker 2: within the movement, and he viewed him as a potential

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Speaker 2: threat to his leadership.

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Speaker 1: Regular bad the weaknesses these movements always have. When you

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Speaker 1: have two guys who are really good at the whole

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Speaker 1: being charismatic thing, they inevitably fall out, right, you can't

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Speaker 1: have two fewers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they love a good furor fight. Yeah, regular bastards.

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Speaker 2: Bad listeners will recall that Moseley served in World War

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Speaker 2: One as a member of the Royal Flying Corps and

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Speaker 2: he crashed his aeroplane whilst doing a loop the loop

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Speaker 2: to show off to his mother and sister who were

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Speaker 2: watching him fly an aeroplane in an aerobatic display. As

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Speaker 2: a result of this self inflicted war wound, Moseley developed

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Speaker 2: phlebiatis in his leg, which flared up from time to time.

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Speaker 2: On one occasion, phlebiatis was so painful that he was

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Speaker 2: not able to walk or stand to deliver a speech.

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Speaker 2: At a major black.

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Speaker 1: Shirt Rather, what is phlebiitis? Because my only reference point

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Speaker 1: is a joke they made with the Nixon character and Futurama.

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Speaker 1: What what are we talking about here?

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Speaker 2: It's basically if you get a now, not a medical doctor,

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Speaker 2: but my understanding because I looked it up for this

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Speaker 2: is if you get a broken bone and it doesn't

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Speaker 2: heal properly, it can affect the nerves in the area

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Speaker 2: around it, and the nerves and the muscle can swell,

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Speaker 2: so your leg could swell up so much so that

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Speaker 2: it's painful to move the joint. Gadget, gadget. Not a

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Speaker 2: medical doctor. But that's that's what I could figure out

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Speaker 2: from from a quick a quick google. P H L

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Speaker 2: E B I T I S. Don't make my word first,

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Speaker 2: go google it yourself, or ask your physician.

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Speaker 1: Or say the word while doing a Nixon accent. You'll

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Speaker 1: you'll appreciate why it's such a good bit.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's think that now. On one occasion, it was

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Speaker 2: so painful he was not able to walk or stand

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Speaker 2: to deliver a speech at a major Backshirt rally. Joyce

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Speaker 2: took his place at the last moment, giving a rousing

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Speaker 2: oration as good, if not better than anything Moseley could

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Speaker 2: have delivered. Joyce was such a good stand in that

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Speaker 2: Moseley increasingly saw him as a threat and was now

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Speaker 2: determined to keep the little man in line or to

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Speaker 2: get rid of him altogether. Moseley got the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: dismiss Joyce in late thirteen six, in the wake of

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Speaker 2: the Fascist defeat at the Battle of Cable Street. Between

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three and nineteen thirty six, Mussolini had sent

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Speaker 2: Moseley a secret annual stipend of sixty thousand pounds per

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Speaker 2: annam again remember Jesus, Yeah, Jesus had no.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of money back then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you're talking again. One hundred and thirty pounds

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Speaker 2: for a construction workers annual wage and Mosley is getting

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Speaker 2: sixty grand.

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Speaker 1: And that's a shitload back then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So it gets laundered to Moseley through the London

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Speaker 2: Bank account of William Allen, who's a former Belfast Loyalist

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Speaker 2: member of Parliament who had joined the British Union of Fascists.

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Speaker 2: So but after the Battle of Cable Street, Mussolini regarded

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Speaker 2: Moseley as a failure and he cut off the funds

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Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty seven. Though Moseley did later get financial

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Speaker 2: support from the Nazis, it never matched Mussolini's generosity, and

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Speaker 2: this left Moseley in financial difficulty. So when he announced cutbacks,

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Speaker 2: the very first thing that had to go was the

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Speaker 2: bus Department of Propaganda, which Joyce had been director of

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Speaker 2: with an annual salary of three hundred pounds. The loss

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Speaker 2: of this wage was the last straw for Joyce, who

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Speaker 2: already suspicious that Mosley was quote too soft on the

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Speaker 2: Jewish question. So in nineteen thirty seven, Joyce adopted friend

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Speaker 2: of the Pod Adolf Hitler as his new political messiah,

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Speaker 2: and he left the BUF to form his own organization

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Speaker 2: called the National Socialist League with John Beckett, the secretly

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Speaker 2: half Jewish former Socialist MP that I mentioned earlier. Now, Rob,

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Speaker 2: what is the one thing that the Nazis in particular

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Speaker 2: have always been streets ahead of compared to other political movements.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I would say, like turning political

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Speaker 1: violence into electoral success.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's that's one thing. I was thinking more

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Speaker 2: along the lines of style.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Yeah, the outfits Jesus Christ. They looked

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Speaker 1: so I mean fucking just look at the fascists we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with today, Like yeah, and honestly, Mussolini's brow. Mussolini

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Speaker 1: not a great looking movement, weird looking outfits. But the

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Speaker 1: Nazis they had tailors.

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Speaker 2: They had it. Hugo Boss was making their their uniforms. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I think again of how powerful the swastka was

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Speaker 2: as a symbol, and I think you covered this before,

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Speaker 2: And think of how evil, cool and genocidely stylish the

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Speaker 2: SS look in their black uniforms.

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Speaker 1: And that was a big reason why people joined them, right,

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Speaker 1: You get a lot of early sessmen were like, well,

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Speaker 1: I thought the uniforms looked cool, like that kind of

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Speaker 1: my politics descended from me wanting to look cool. Of

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Speaker 1: many such cases, unfortunately, that's it.

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Speaker 2: So speaking of of of you know, brilliant symbolism and style,

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Speaker 2: I have sent you the if you look in the

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Speaker 2: emails the logo that that William Joyce designed for the

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Speaker 2: National Socialist League.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so I'm looking at it, and honestly it it

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Speaker 1: looks more like the logo for a prey away the

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Speaker 1: gay camp. There's a bunch of like I would I

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Speaker 1: know what it supposed to be. It looks like like

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Speaker 1: about four or five four to six rolling pins are

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Speaker 1: are forming like like almost like a Star of David

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Speaker 1: type design with like a blue circle around them, and

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Speaker 1: then the words steer straight underneath it. I know that

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Speaker 1: the rolling pins are actually supposed to be like a

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Speaker 1: like a ship's and ships right, yeah, what with England

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Speaker 1: and the Navy being such a big deal, But just

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Speaker 1: the whole steer straight thing, it looks like it's a

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Speaker 1: It looks like a prey away the gay camp logo.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I mean think of it even

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Speaker 2: steer straight as a motto like the Nazis have deutschkan

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Speaker 2: de ervach, you know, Germany awake, and these guys have

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Speaker 2: steer Straight. But Roberts. Do you know who else has

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Speaker 2: a dogshit logo?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean look, it was a long time ago

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Speaker 1: when we got the logo for this podcast. I've done

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Speaker 1: all right for us.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, not the sponsors of this

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Speaker 2: of this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, good logos only unless it's the Washington State.

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Speaker 1: I would patrol again.

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Speaker 2: So in nineteen thirty eight, Joyce hoped that his movement

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Speaker 2: with a shitty ships wheel logo would grow to replace

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Speaker 2: Moseley's and that he would become the future British fuelure.

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Speaker 2: The problem was that Moseley had forty thousand black Shirts,

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Speaker 2: whilst Joyce's splinter group had just forty one. Former comrade

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Speaker 2: from the BUF came to see Joyce and Beckett speaking

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Speaker 2: one day and recalled quote. They were at a street corner,

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Speaker 2: with Joyce standing on a platform and speaking from it,

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Speaker 2: with Beckett the only spectator pretending to be an opposition Heckler.

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Speaker 2: It was their way of trying to attract some controversy

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Speaker 2: and to generate an audience for their open air meeting.

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Speaker 2: What a terrible come down. It was from the great

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Speaker 2: BUF meetings attended by thousands that I had seen the

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Speaker 2: men speaking at. So Joyce writes the party's policy document

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Speaker 2: entitled National Socialism Now, in which he declared his devotion

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Speaker 2: to Hitler but stressed that an indigenous form of Nazism

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Speaker 2: was required for Britain. Quote, we are the only one

359
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Speaker 2: hundred percent British organization working with British people and British

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Speaker 2: funds for the rebuilding of Britain in a modern British way.

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Speaker 2: So basically he just wants it to be made very clear.

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Speaker 2: That he is definitely not Irish. From the foundation of

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Speaker 2: the party until the outbreak of the Second World War,

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Speaker 2: Joyce organized public meetings in London at which he disseminated

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Speaker 2: Nazi propaganda, but he failed to attract many supporters. Joyce's

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Speaker 2: meetings were mainly attended by hostile audiences. Joyce in flame

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Speaker 2: matters by singing God Save the King as a means

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Speaker 2: of ending each meeting, which was fairly customary across most

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Speaker 2: political parties in Britain at the time, but Joyce would

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Speaker 2: follow the national anthem by giving the Nazi salute and

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Speaker 2: shouting the National Socialist League. Sure, yeah, see how that

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Speaker 2: could come in nineteen thirty nine England.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're on the pulse man.

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Speaker 2: The National Socialist League's lack of success meant that it

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Speaker 2: was soon de registered as a political party, and Joyce

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Speaker 2: re registered it as a drinking club. I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: you could formally found one of them in Britain, but

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Speaker 2: I suppose it's kind of like what the Proud Boys

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Speaker 2: have now. So he became increasingly depressed about the looming

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Speaker 2: prospect of war with Nazi Germany and was growing even

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Speaker 2: more dependent on alcohol. His last public meeting of the

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Speaker 2: National Socialist League in May of nineteen thirty nine ended

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Speaker 2: in chaos, with Joyce stood on stage giving the Nazi

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Speaker 2: salute and repeatedly screaming seek Hyle, before stage diving into

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Speaker 2: his audience in an attempt to punch Heckler. Joyce was

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Speaker 2: brought to court twice for assault, but neither case ever

387
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Speaker 2: proceeded to trial. Sounds like a screwdriver, gig or something.

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Speaker 2: In the autumn of nineteen thirty nine, as the threat

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Speaker 2: of war with Nazi Germany loomed, the British government passed

390
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Speaker 2: Regulation eighteen B to allow for the internment without trial

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Speaker 2: of potential fascist fifth columnists. On the afternoon of twenty

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Speaker 2: fourth of August nineteen thirty nine, Joyce received a phone

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Speaker 2: call warning him that he's internment had been approved and

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Speaker 2: that Five had been ordered to arrest him within forty

395
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Speaker 2: eight hours. It is widely believed that the tip off

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Speaker 2: to Joyce had come from Maxwell Knight, the head of

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Speaker 2: I five, who not only was the main source of

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Speaker 2: inspiration for the character m in Ian Flemings James Bond series,

399
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 2: he was also former friend and comrade of Joyce's from

400
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 2: their time together in the early years of the British fascisty,

401
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 2: Joyce simply picked up the receiver and listened to the

402
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Speaker 2: caller for some minutes without replying. He and his second wife, Margaret,

403
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: then immediately left for London. When Special Branch of the

404
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 2: London Metropolitan Police raided his flat four days later, they

405
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 2: found Joyce's mother Gertrude and his mistress Sylvia Marris, both

406
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Speaker 2: of whom he had chosen to abandon, along with his

407
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Speaker 2: two daughters, whom he would never see again, because just

408
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Speaker 2: one week later, when Britain declared war on Nazi Germany,

409
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Speaker 2: Joyce was already safely in Berlin looking for a way

410
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 2: to serve the Nazi war effort. William and Margaret Joyce

411
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 2: arrived in the Third Reich without a plan. Joyce had

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Speaker 2: not been in contact with the Nazis beforehand, and unlike

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Speaker 2: Moseley's the UF, the Nazis had no idea who this

414
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Speaker 2: guy was. The Joyces were quickly running out of money,

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Speaker 2: and for a while it looked as if they would

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Speaker 2: be interned as enemy aliens. But luckily for Joyce, some

417
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: other British Nazi sympathizers had fled to Germany earlier and

418
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 2: had established close ties with the Nazi regime. Through this network,

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00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 2: Joyce got a job broadcasting propaganda to Britain. During World

420
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Speaker 2: War II, the Nazis set up dozens of radio stations

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Speaker 2: in a multitude of languages, broadcasting all over Europe. For example,

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Speaker 2: Nazi propaganda was broadcast in minority indigenous languages such as Irish, Gaelic, Scott's,

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Speaker 2: Gallic and Welsh in the hope of encouraging separatists in

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Speaker 2: Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales to rebel against the English

425
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: dominated British government. In London, Joyce was given a job

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Speaker 2: broadcasting in English to the populace of Britain and Ireland.

427
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Speaker 2: Each night, he bombarded his audience with anti Semitic propaganda

428
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Speaker 2: and assured them of the impending victory of Nazi Germany

429
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Speaker 2: and urged the British to see peace terms. His broadcasts

430
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Speaker 2: always began the same way, and I think we've were

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Speaker 2: recording there the first one of how it starts. People

432
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: haven't heard it before.

433
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 3: Germany calling, Germany calling, Germany calling. Here are the rights

434
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 3: in ambush Station Bremen and Station dx B.

435
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: On the faty one meter Ben.

436
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 3: You are about to hear our news in English. The

437
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 3: British Ministry of Misinformation has been conducting a systematic campaign

438
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: of frightening British women and girls about the danger of

439
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: being injured by splinters from German bombs. The women have

440
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 3: reacted to these suggestions and alarms by requesting their milliners

441
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 3: to shape the spring and summer heads out of very

442
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 3: thin tin plate which is covered with silk, velvet or

443
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 3: other draping material.

444
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so this was unbelievably successful. At the time,

445
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: listening to Joyce's pro Nazi broadcast in Britain was not illegal,

446
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: but it was very much discouraged. Nonetheless, his broadcasts were,

447
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 2: as I said, of phenomenal success. At a time when

448
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: official BBC news broadcasts had a radio listenership of eighteen

449
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 2: million listeners, Nightly Joyce had a listenership of nine million.

450
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: Okayce Britz.

451
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's kind of giving the people what they want.

452
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: It drew a large audience in part because it usually

453
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: had more accurate war news than the heavily censored BBC.

454
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 2: I mean, this guy can say anything he wants once

455
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: it causes chaos in Britain. So he entertained them with

456
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: humor at a time when BBC broadcasts were strictly scripted,

457
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: stuffy and fairly boring. But most of all, he terrorized.

458
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: He's fascinated listeners by sowing fear, doubt and demoralizing rumors

459
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: aimed at undermining the British war effort. So at a

460
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: time when there were thousands of British men serving in

461
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 2: the Royal Navy or flying against the Luffaffe in the RAF,

462
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 2: the BBC refused to report any war losses out of

463
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 2: fear of demoralizing the nation and undermining the war effort.

464
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: In an effective effort to fill this vacuum, Joyce regularly

465
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: broadcast nightly lists of dead and captured British servicemen, and

466
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 2: of course millions of people tuned in to learn if

467
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 2: their husband's sons, fathers and brothers were mentioned.

468
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: God, that's bleak, I mean, it's why Also that that's

469
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: a bad propaganda idea, just pretending like nothing's bad happening

470
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: while you're fighting a war. Like people will be aware

471
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: that things are like, you know, they'll stop hearing from

472
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: their loved ones. They'll see that, like the notes are

473
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: going out to neighborhoods in town, Like you can't hide

474
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: that sort of shit.

475
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: Really yeah, And this is one of the things he does,

476
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: like his most famous kind of catchphrase, One of the

477
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 2: big British battleships is the Arc Royal. The guys on

478
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: board it can't send home, you know, mail and stuff

479
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: and the results kind of security opsec you know things,

480
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: you know, they can't report much about it or what

481
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: it's doing, or even if it's still a float or

482
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: if it's been sunk. So Joyce's catchphrase that he'd repeat

483
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: every few episodes was where is the Aarc Royal? Where

484
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: is the act Royal? You don't know that we do,

485
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: and we can sink it any time we choose. So

486
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: he also specializes in informing like, think of what's happening

487
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: in the early stages of the war. It just looks

488
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: like rolling Nazi victory after Nazi victory, and he's happily

489
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: broadcasting accurate information about it. And this is terrifying people

490
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: in Britain. And he's saying stuff like, you know, and

491
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: the invasion is coming Hitler the time, the hour, the place.

492
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: These are Hitler's secrets. But bear in mind he is coming,

493
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: will be with you. I'll be broadcasting from London soon.

494
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: He also knew Britain very well because he had traveled

495
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: all over England making speeches at different fascist rallies, and

496
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: he exploited, like his brilliant photographic memory to strike fear

497
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: into people, so he might broadcast to some English town saying,

498
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: dear listener, in Sophie's Town, Robertshire, where miss Smith serves

499
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 2: tea in the yellow Daw cafe, where the mallard swim

500
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: and the duck pond off the village green, and the

501
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: town hall pluck runs three minutes slow, And of course

502
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: this made it seem like he had a local secret

503
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: Nazi spy, or if he had just parachuted in yesterday,

504
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 2: because he's describing the place so well when in fact

505
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: he hadn't been there for years. And of course there's

506
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: a very good chance that one thing that keeps coming

507
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: up in these listeners is the detail about the clock

508
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: being three minutes slow. And of course there's a very

509
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: good chance that somebody locally had a watch that's three

510
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: minute fast, and they look at the town hall clock

511
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: and think, fuck, he's right, or else the town hall

512
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: clock is two minutes slow, and people ignore the discrepancy

513
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: when down, when they're down the pub or else somebody

514
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: spread a conspiracy theory saying, ah, but the clock was

515
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: three minutes slow yesterday. But then the Home Guard were

516
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: sent in to synchronize the time to undermine Joyce. And

517
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: of course all these rumors spread and it creates sheer panic,

518
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: and there are some verified cases of Joyce's listeners actually

519
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 2: being so terrified of his of his shows and the

520
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: prospect of an immediate Nazi invasion, that they commit suicide.

521
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: Joyce would announce that a specific armaments factory in some

522
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: city would be bombed the following night, and of course

523
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: what happens is it might be bombed coincidentally he doesn't

524
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: know what the Love Draft are planning, or it might

525
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: be bombed five nights later, and again people forget the discrepancy.

526
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: It's like Alex Jones prediction. People just remember the hits

527
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: and forget all the misses has or munitions. Workers will

528
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: listen to the broadcasts and they just won't turn up

529
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: at work the next day. They don't want to be bombed.

530
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: And then the factory has to close, so the rumor

531
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: goes out that, oh it's been closed, and that's why

532
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 2: the bombing raid didn't arrive. So basically panic, fear and

533
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: rumor filled the vacuum of information left in the wartime censorship.

534
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: And that's of course what fascism drives on, you know,

535
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: on fear.

536
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, fear, isolation.

537
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And he's so successful that the British government

538
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 2: actually considers blocking the cross channel radio signal. But the

539
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: problem is if they broadcast a block he's incoming broadcasts,

540
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: they are also stopping their outgoing broadcasts and communications with

541
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force, the OSS and

542
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: the French Resistance and so on, so they can't do

543
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: anything about it. And for the first few years he's

544
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: broadcast Joyce through mained completely anonymous. He's nasal tone earned

545
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: him the nickname Lord Hahall because of he's perceived haughty, haughty,

546
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: posh Mayfair accent. Now Joyce, we don't know what kind

547
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: of accent this guy had as a kid, because remember

548
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: he's born either in America or in Ireland. Yes, father

549
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: is Irish, his mother is English. And when he comes

550
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: to when he comes to Britain and starts making political speeches,

551
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 2: I mean he was from Galway. I'm from County Claire,

552
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: which is the next county down. So like, you couldn't

553
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: stand on a stage in Britain to give a political

554
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: speech to the Conservative Party with my accent. You know,

555
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: we jar with people, so he basically gets received pronunciation

556
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: lessons and that is that's that's where the accent seems

557
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: to come from. There's a myth that you'll find online

558
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: and it's popular in Galway that remember remember I said

559
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: in episode one about how he used to make speeches

560
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: against the ira and against Bolshevism and stuff, and yeah,

561
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: he was supposed to have gotten into a lot of fights.

562
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: So there's a myth about it that some other kid

563
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: broke his nose so badly that he had a nasal

564
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: tone for the rest of his life, which.

565
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: Is a great impossible not impossible I talked.

566
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: To as in depth research for this. I phoned up

567
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 2: a friend of mine who's a consultant optomologist and he said, no,

568
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: that is, that is not really possible. And even if

569
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: you can find early accounts of William Joyce, he always

570
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 2: seemed to have a kind of nasal or high voice,

571
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: even because.

572
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: People always talked about him being yeah, well, yeah nice,

573
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: you can still believe it. You can still believe it.

574
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 2: Anyway, Eventually, when a Nazi victory seemed inevitable in nineteen

575
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: forty one, Lord Haha, as he was known out of

576
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 2: himself on air as William Joyce, ending years of feverish

577
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: speculation as to his identity. People didn't and actually the

578
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: term ha god applied. It's kind of like the dread

579
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: Private Roberts. It gets applied to several different speakers. But

580
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: Joyce is the guy who becomes Wesley. He's the guy

581
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: who goes on to kind of personify it. So but

582
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: the tide of war, of course, after he outs himself

583
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: and the tide of public opinion soon change because with

584
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 2: rapid Soviet Russian advances on the Eastern Front, the D

585
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 2: Day Landings, the Allied reconquest of Africa, and the invasion

586
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: of Italy, Lord haw Hall became less a figure of

587
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: dread and more a figure of ridicule as he's in passion.

588
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: Broadcasts about the inevitable Nazi victory rang more and more hollow.

589
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: So Looney Tunes produced a cartoon called Tokyo Jokio as

590
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: a piece of propaganda and is mocking the Japanese, but

591
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: also features Joyce as Lord Heehaw, depicting him as a

592
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: braying Nazi donkey at a microphone.

593
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I remember this cartoon.

594
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the comment are the British Pathay who would

595
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: produce newsreels also made like they start playing Joyce at

596
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: his own game, and you know, doing comedy, which is

597
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 2: something that you know, British Pathey and the BBC would

598
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: never have have done before. But they have nasty Nazi

599
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: news featuring Lord haw Haw and they depict him as

600
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 2: a wealthy buffoon in the comedy clips, you know, going

601
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: around saluting Hitler's picture on the wall and all this

602
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. And they would show these before, you know,

603
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: newsreels and movies in the in the cinema. And I

604
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: think that we have an audio clip. There's also a

605
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 2: song by the Western Brothers that is that is written

606
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 2: about Lord Hahaw the Humbug of Hamburg, and I think

607
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 2: I've sent you a link to that, Robert, maybe the

608
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 2: forty first forty five seconds or as much. But as

609
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: you can stand, because it's atrocious.

610
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: This is not a banger, Okay, not a banger. All right,

611
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: Well let's let's let's make that judgment for ourselves. Let's

612
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: see how I feel about it. Maybe this guy's going

613
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: to be my new my new obsession.

614
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 4: Oh well, referring to this fellow, Lord hare Hole, this

615
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 4: is Germany calling so Bin Tillero. Who is the chap

616
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 4: who hits the high spot, the greatest comedian now of

617
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 4: the lot, the definite radio star number one, the life

618
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 4: of the party, the Bundle of Puth, Lord hall Hol,

619
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 4: the Humburg of Hamburg, the bloke with the tonsils and

620
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 4: tone his Hamburg. He raises in Hamburg. His top lip

621
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 4: is quite overgrown, and yet in the winter it's rather pathetic.

622
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 4: He's frozen to death cause his pants are synthetic. The

623
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 4: whole hold the Humbug of Hamburg.

624
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: Well do you think you could? You could, you could

625
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 2: have proper someone dropped some beats behind us and.

626
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you could remix that into something good.

627
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 3: No you.

628
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: That also reminds me, but you mentioned a Pathay which

629
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: distributed a movie. It's one of my favorite, like fringe

630
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: little British comedies that has some like fake uh uh

631
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 1: like comedy music bits like this in there that's made

632
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: to sound like it's stuffed. From the forties. There's this

633
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: film called Churchill The Hollywood Years with Christian Slater and

634
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: nev Campbell, where Christian Slater plays Winston Churchill, and it

635
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: was kind of like, there's this movie he made in

636
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: the nineties called U five seventy one I think we

637
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: made in the nineties, and it was basically it was

638
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: about the capture of the Enigma machine by the British,

639
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: but since it was an American movie, we just replaced

640
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: all the British soldiers with Americans. So there's the bit

641
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: in the movie is that like, no, no, no, all

642
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: British heroes have been Americans throughout history, you know, like

643
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a grand conspiracy to convince the British

644
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: that they can have heroes, but it's really just Americans

645
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: the whole time.

646
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, is we get the British kind of stealing Irish celebrities.

647
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 2: They come along and they say that, oh, sir Charon

648
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: and she's Irish, or they'll say, you know, Brendan Leeson

649
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 2: or Colin Farrell or someone. And the award winning Irish

650
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,720
Speaker 2: actress Brenda Fricker said, when you're when you win an oscar,

651
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: they call you British, and when you're drunk in an

652
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 2: airport they call you Irish. You know, was Daniel Day

653
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: Lewis's mother in My Left Foot. That's the movie you

654
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 2: want to ask her for?

655
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 1: Oh? Okay, yeah good.

656
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 2: I think I think we need to take our revenge

657
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: by just stealing British successful British actors with no Irish

658
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: heritage like Bennett, cumber Patch and just.

659
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: I would say, you guys are already ahead because you

660
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: have cale Meeni, obviously one of the greatest actors of

661
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: all time, Chief O'Brien. He also beat the absolute shit

662
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: out of James Bond in the movie Layer Cake, just

663
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: really absolutely annihilated it.

664
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: And of course the famous Star Trek episode with the

665
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 2: United Ireland, which is very relevant. We've gone the sidetrack

666
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: from Lord Star Trek.

667
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: But anyway, I can talk about col Meani all day.

668
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: But yes, let's get back to Lord Haha.

669
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 2: Yes. Facing ridicule for his day job as a radio DJ,

670
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: Joyce began increasingly turning his hand to writing propaganda leaflets

671
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 2: in a failed attempt to recruit captured British prisoners of

672
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: war as members of the British Free Corps or the

673
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 2: British Free Corps, a unit of the SS. He also

674
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 2: published a book on Anglo German relations entitled Damer Ubert

675
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 2: England or Twilight Over England, which was promoted by the

676
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: German Ministry of Propaganda. It has compared the alleged evils

677
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 2: of supposedly Jewish dominated Britain with the purported wonders of

678
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 2: Nazi Germany. The book was a publishing success, and it

679
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 2: was reprinted three times. Doctor Joseph Goebbels was delighted with

680
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 2: Joyce's propaganda efforts so much that he had Hitler bestowed

681
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: the German war Merit Cross first Class on Joyce. However,

682
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: Hitler did not bestow the medal in person, and though

683
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: Goebbels was often in the same radio broadcast center as

684
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: Joyce and regularly left him gift baskets of cigars and brandy,

685
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: he never met him in person. He did refer to Joyce, however,

686
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 2: as the finest horse in our stable, but he never

687
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: regarded him as an equal. He never met Joyce to

688
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 2: Shakey's hand or to pose for a photo with him.

689
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 2: But he was a big fan of He's writing, so

690
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: much so that in nineteen forty three he commissioned Joyce

691
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: to write a detective novel. Now, Robert, I regret to

692
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 2: inform you that when I looked in all the dark

693
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 2: corners of the Internet was unable to find a copy

694
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: of Joyce's weird Hitler fanfic Murderer.

695
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: That's tragic.

696
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 2: That's tragic, But I think it's remarkable that in nineteen

697
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: forty three, as the Battle of you know, Stalingrad is

698
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 2: coming to an end, Goebel's thought, Hey, I know what

699
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: will turn the whole war efforts around. Let's commission the

700
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 2: detective novel championing national socialist principles.

701
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: That does make sense for these guys. I mean, Hitler

702
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: sent a bunch of cowboy novels to his generals in

703
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: the Ast Front when things were slowing down. They had

704
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: a lot of faith in fiction.

705
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,479
Speaker 2: Well, Rabert, you some very talented listeners. So somebody wants

706
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 2: to design a title and cover art for this send

707
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: it on anyway. As the military and political situation went

708
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 2: to shit in Nazi Germany in late nineteen forty four

709
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 2: and early ninety five, so too did William and Margaret's marriage. Now,

710
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 2: this had never been a Hollywood romance with a heavy

711
00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 2: dose of cheating, alcoholism, verbal shacking, domestic violence engaged in

712
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: by boat spouses by now, but amazingly living in a

713
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: war zone with almost nightly aerial bombardment, widespread food shortages,

714
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: and increasing societal collapse actually made their relationship worse. The

715
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: pair got divorced on the twelfth of August nineteen forty one,

716
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 2: but later reunited and remarried almost immediately. As soon as

717
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: they remarried, they just dive back into their previous toxic behaviors.

718
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 2: Margaret started a long term affair with a Wehrmacht officer,

719
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 2: and when he caught a bullet on the Eastern Front,

720
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 2: she had a string of shorter affairs and one night stands,

721
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: while Joyce fucked about every secretary who was willing in

722
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: the radio center. And for some fucking reason, they just

723
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 2: would not call it quits or go to therapy or

724
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 2: marriage counseling, and they just seemed to take joy in

725
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 2: making each other increasingly fucking miserable. Even towards the end

726
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 2: of the war, Joyce, creepy fucker that he was began

727
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 2: fantasizing again about Mary Ogilvy, the teenage students that he

728
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 2: had cheated on his pregnant wife with when she was

729
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 2: just fifteen or sixteen years old, and Joyce wrote in

730
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: his diary quote I think I was luckier in the

731
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,439
Speaker 2: marriages I did not contract, then in those I did.

732
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: The exception was Mary, with whom I am sure success

733
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 2: would have been certain. In the last years and months

734
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 2: of the war. Joyce is just pounding schnaps all day,

735
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: every day, and he was such a dedicated Nazi that

736
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: when he was offered extra food rations or extra pay

737
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: because of his privileged position as a broadcaster, he doggedly

738
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 2: refused to accept it. But he did, however, take all

739
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: the cigarettes and snaps that he could get, and he

740
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: was able to use his influence to dine out as

741
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 2: often as possible in the Press Club, one of Berlin's

742
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: few remaining functioning restaurants. One evening, he was coming home

743
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: from the club and he had gotten so fucking cabbage

744
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: drunk that he started a fist fight with one of

745
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: the wardens in charge of the air raid shelter where

746
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: he and Margaret were sheltering from an area on. So

747
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 2: Roberts is strength for Boton in deutsch Land. I don't

748
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: know if you know this, but the Germans are said

749
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: to be pretty big on rules and discipline at the

750
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: best of times. Yeah, and in the dying days of

751
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: the Third Reich. They are not cool with anybody, including

752
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 2: state employees like Joyce, assaulting air raid wardens, which they

753
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: see as a subversive act, undermining the national role at

754
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 2: the national morale and the Nazi war effort.

755
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: Look, I very rarely say the Nazis have a point

756
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: on this one, but you probably shouldn't start a fist

757
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: fight with an air raid warden. That might be anti

758
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: social behavior basically everywhere.

759
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 2: Also, you should probably listen to their directions and take cover.

760
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, they're an air raid warden.

761
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 2: Joyce wags up the following morning in prison with the

762
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: mother of all hangovers and that he was a broadcaster

763
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 2: and Nazi radio. He did not have enough influence to

764
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: talk his way out of this situation. He did get bail,

765
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 2: but was due to be brought to trial for undermining

766
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 2: the war effort. Potential penalty if he was found guilty

767
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 2: was death. Joyce's case did not go to trial because

768
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: the night before he was due to appear in court,

769
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: the RIF did him with favor of killing the judge

770
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 2: and obliterating the court records in an air raid, leaving

771
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 2: Joyce free to return to the airwaves for the remainder

772
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 2: of his increasingly pointless broadcasting career. So this is the

773
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: second time that Joyce has escaped a death sentence.

774
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: But he really owes the favor here.

775
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: But his luck is about to run out. But Roberts,

776
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: do you know whose luck won't run.

777
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: Out our sponsors?

778
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 5: No?

779
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely not now absolutely.

780
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 2: I remember your old ad pivot and the joke you

781
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 2: had about the child hunting island with blue apron.

782
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you would always in trouble.

783
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: You would always beep out blue apron. But for me,

784
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 2: listening in Ireland, I wasn't familiar with blue apron. And

785
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 2: it's the exact same length of time and syllables starting off.

786
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 2: I always thought you were saying Bill Clinton's childhound.

787
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: If you know, ifwhere, if these, if these emails have

788
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,919
Speaker 1: taught us anything, it's that he used someone else's child

789
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: hunting island. He didn't maintain his own. That's not the

790
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: way it works when you're the president.

791
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 2: And we're back, okay. So the Joycees were evacuated from

792
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: Berlin March of nineteen forty.

793
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 1: Five to a time to get out of Berlin, yeah, to.

794
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: A broadcasting station in Hamburg, and by April of nineteen

795
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: forty five, it was clear to pretty much everyone that

796
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 2: the Nazis had lost the war, but I continued to

797
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: broadcast every night. He was repeatedly assured that he would

798
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 2: not be captured by the Allies because the Nazis would

799
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 2: take him and Margaret by submarine to Ireland, which had

800
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 2: remained neutral during World War Two. The reality was that

801
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 2: Hitler had a very packed schedule in April and May

802
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 2: of nineteen forty five. He was running a government, fighting

803
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: a war on two fronts, planning his fifty sixth birthday party,

804
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 2: he had to get his favorite dog put to sleep.

805
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 2: He was planning his wedding and two funerals, so he'd

806
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 2: probably did not know who Joyce was, and any available

807
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 2: submarines they had were being loaded with gold bars and

808
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 2: looted Renaissance masterpieces, and if they were going anywhere, it

809
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 2: was the South America with senior Nazis on board and

810
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 2: not saving sailing to Ireland to save the Joyces. Joyce

811
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: made his final broadcast on the thirtieth of April nineteen

812
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: forty five, same day as Hitler's suicide. Joyce's last broadcast

813
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 2: was a rambling monologue during which he was so rubber

814
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 2: drunk that He slurred his words repeatedly and struggled to

815
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 2: string sentences together. Joyce used this last opportunity to admonish

816
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 2: Britain for declaring war on Germany and warned of the

817
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 2: global menace that the USS or POST the whole world.

818
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 2: So again, thankfully our recording of this survives. You just

819
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: want to pay like I think the last forty five

820
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: seconds of it, Robert.

821
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 5: A tremendous, well shattering conflict.

822
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 2: It's been way good. I would want to say. The

823
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 2: men of Guy is a battle.

824
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 5: Of Marrier, have liven their lives to show that whatever

825
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 5: else happened, Germany will live. And never, I say you

826
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 5: in these last word you may not hear from me

827
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 5: again for a few minutes, I say, es leba goddam.

828
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: I like that, And well, yeah, I think that's probably

829
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 1: better enough.

830
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. How half hearted did that last hile Hitler sound, Robert?

831
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: It does not sound motivated. It sounds like a guy

832
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: who just got evacuated from Berlin in March of nineteen

833
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: forty five, and it is aware that, like, we lost

834
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: about as badly as we could have lost.

835
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. After the fall of Berlin, Joyce fled to Flinnsburgh,

836
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 2: where Hitler's successor, Admiral Donuts, had established a makeshift government

837
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 2: and was busy teaching people how to show shout Hile

838
00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 2: Donuts whilst he plotted increasingly desperate strategy to try and

839
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 2: keep the few steps scraps of territory that he had

840
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 2: together under Nazi control as the Third Reich.

841
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: And you had that work for him.

842
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Four days after Joyce made his last broadcast, Nazi

843
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 2: Germany surrendered and the British Army took control of the

844
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 2: Hamburg Broadcasting Center. A German Jew named Horst Pincher, who

845
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: had fled Nazi Germany for Britain at the age of seventeen,

846
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 2: walked into Joyce's former studio and turned on the transmitter.

847
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: Lieutenant Pincher had survived the D Day landing and was

848
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 2: present at the liberation of Belzen. He picked up Joyce's

849
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: old microphone and made this broadcast. This is Germany calling

850
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 2: for the last time from Station Hamburg tonight. You will

851
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: not hear William Joyce, or Lord Hawhaw, as he is

852
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 2: known to most of us in Britain. He has been

853
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 2: most unfortunately interrupted in his broadcasting career, and at present

854
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: he has left Rader hurriedly for vacation, an extremely short

855
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 2: vacation if the British Army has anything to do with it.

856
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 2: After tonight's great news of the surrender of the German forces,

857
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 2: I wonder what now our Lord Hawhaw's views on the news. Incredibly,

858
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 2: just over three weeks later, the two met in person.

859
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: William and Margaret Joyce were hiding in the town of Flinsburgh,

860
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 2: near the German Danish border, in the hope of escaping

861
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 2: to neutral Sweden. On the twenty eighth of May, Joyce

862
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 2: left to search for some firewood with which to cook

863
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,240
Speaker 2: and keep the couple warm. Emerging from a forest clearing

864
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 2: carrying a bundle of sticks, he was stopped when he

865
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 2: met two British officers who were out on the same

866
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 2: errand one was Pincher, who was accompanied by his commanding

867
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 2: officer who had the most English name ever, Captain Bertie Licorice.

868
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: Oh my god, wow wow.

869
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's actually a British company, Bassetts, a sweet company

870
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 2: like a candy company, who make licorice all sorts and

871
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,919
Speaker 2: have done for like one hundred years. And their their

872
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 2: mascot is called Bertie the fuck that his parents given

873
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 2: this name.

874
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's that's shockingly English.

875
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 2: Let's let's also just pause here to remember that Joyce

876
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 2: is literally carrying the symbol of fascism a bundle of

877
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 2: sticks when he encounters.

878
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: The British Army. Yeah, also that that facial scar is

879
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: no longer doing him any favors, because he is pretty

880
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: recognizable anyway.

881
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 2: Joyce decides to bluff it out, and he pretends to

882
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 2: be a displaced Belgium and speaks to the two British

883
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 2: officers in French, shouting idea, which I'm told is the

884
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 2: French for there is more firewood over here. So the

885
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: trio collected some firewood together and exchanged a few pleasantries

886
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: in German before Joyce broke into English. He began critiquing

887
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 2: the two soldiers on their technique for gathering firewood, and

888
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 2: then launched into an impromptu lecture on the difference between

889
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 2: deciduous and coniferous trees, before starting on about which types

890
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:16,320
Speaker 2: of timber were the best fuel. Lieutenant Pincher later recalled

891
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: he was insufferable. He would just not talking.

892
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,919
Speaker 1: Does he get himself caught because he's a fucking dry heard.

893
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. The more he spoke, the more his voice sounded familiar,

894
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 2: and eventually our hero, Captain Bertie Licorice, grew suspicious and

895
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 2: said to him, you you wouldn't happen to be William Joyce,

896
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 2: would you choice immediately reached for a fake German passport

897
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 2: he had.

898
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: You wouldn't happen to be the British guy we're looking for,

899
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 1: would you? You know, the one who's a huge asshole

900
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: and as a scar on his face.

901
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 2: Boss. So he reaches for the fake German German passport.

902
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 2: I think it's going to get him out of it,

903
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: but Lieutenant Pincher, thinking he was reaching for a weapon,

904
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 2: immediately drew his own gun and shot Joyce twice. First

905
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:11,919
Speaker 2: bullet awesome, it gets better, lovers. The first bullet went

906
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 2: through and through both cheeks of Joyce's ass. The second

907
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 2: lodged in his shoulder and knocked him off he's feet.

908
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 2: Neither wound looked fatal, but Pincher was immediately worried that

909
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 2: he might have shot an innocent civilian. But when they

910
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 2: searched him, as well as the German passport with a

911
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 2: fake name, they found a Volkstorm Militia pass issued in

912
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 2: the name of William Joyce, and they knew they had

913
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 2: captured Lord Hall Joyce.

914
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: Throw that thing out, man.

915
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 2: Joyce was taken to hospital in a Royal Army Medical

916
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 2: Corps ambulance. It was a memorable journey for Joyce, who

917
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,760
Speaker 2: lay in the back of the vehicle with four bullet

918
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: wounds in his ass and another round lodged in his shoulder.

919
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: Couldn't it happen to a nicer guy?

920
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: It gets better. When the ambulance driver discovered who the

921
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 2: wounded patient he had was, he drove as hard and

922
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 2: as fast as he could, deliberately aiming the wheels of

923
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 2: his vehicle at every rot, at every rot, pothole and

924
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 2: shell crater he could find. Meanwhile, Lieutenant Pincher, who was

925
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 2: guarding the wounded prisoner in the back of the vehicle,

926
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 2: took great delight in revealing to him that the British

927
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 2: Army officer who had shot him was in fact not

928
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 2: an English Christian but a German Jew. In due course,

929
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 2: Joyce was extradited to Britain, where he was put on

930
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 2: trial for treason. Now Joyce was extradited the day after

931
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 2: the Felony Treason Act, which was a medieval law, had

932
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: been updated to make his prosecution more likely, a legal

933
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 2: issue arose because of a lack of evidence. BBC had

934
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 2: only kept transcripts and recordings of Joyce's Lord haw Hall

935
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: radio broadcasts in the latter stage of the war, and

936
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 2: Joyce became a German citizen in nineteen forty two, so

937
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 2: after that point his support for Nazi Germany couldn't legally

938
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 2: be considered a treason. They managed to find a police

939
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: officer who claimed he had heard Joyce broadcasting in nineteen

940
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 2: thirty nine and had previously heard him at Fascist meetings,

941
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 2: so he could identify the voice, but the problem is

942
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 2: that hearsay evidence they couldn't play the recording in court.

943
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 2: Matters were further complicated by the fact that Joyce was

944
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 2: now claiming American citizenship, and of course the USA had

945
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 2: been neutral until nineteen forty one. The British government's prosecution lawyer, however,

946
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 2: was able to prove that Joyce had sworn allegiance to

947
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 2: the British king when he joined the British Army to

948
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 2: escape from Ireland in nineteen twenty two, and he had

949
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 2: claimed the protection of the British crown when he traveled

950
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 2: to Germany on a British passport. Just before the outbreak

951
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 2: of war in nineteen thirty nine, and therefore had committed

952
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 2: treason by making pro Nazi broadcast between thirty nine and

953
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 2: forty two when he became a German citizen. At his trial,

954
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 2: Joyce did not deliver an impassioned, rousing speech from the

955
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 2: dock to defend his life. He merely spoke two words

956
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: when entering a plea not guilty. After the death sentence

957
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 2: was passed, he merely smiled and bowed his head, but

958
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 2: otherwise remained silent. Joyce's last recorded words were mailed to

959
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: his friend John McNabb, who had been a member of

960
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 2: the National Socialist League. Quote, I do not, in the

961
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 2: most infinitesimal degree regret what I have done for me

962
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 2: underlined there was nothing else to do. I am proud

963
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: to die for what I have done. I shall not

964
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 2: die in vain and suspect my service in dying maybe

965
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: greater than my service in living. May it be so

966
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 2: so A Nazi to the end. There is another cool

967
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 2: story about him that when they hanged him, that the

968
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 2: facial scar actually burst open because of the pressure, which

969
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 2: is a very cool story and I was going to include,

970
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 2: but again until I talked to my friend, the consultant optomologist,

971
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 2: and he said, no, scar tissue was incredibly strong. There

972
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 2: is no way that happened.

973
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd have to get something like a scurvy or

974
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: whatever to exactly that happened.

975
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 2: Again, great story. There's loads that about Joyce everywhere. But anyway,

976
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 2: Joyce was executed by hanging at Wandwert Prison on the

977
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 2: third of January nineteen forty six. If he made a

978
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 2: speech from the gallows, it was not recorded by his executioner,

979
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 2: Albert Pierpoint, who had also executed Irma Greece and other

980
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 2: Nazi war criminals convicted at Nuremberg. Joyce's body was initially

981
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 2: buried in an unmarked grave within the prison walls, but

982
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies his eldest daughter, Heather, began a

983
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,959
Speaker 2: successful campaign to get his body exhumed. Nineteen seventy six,

984
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 2: it was reinterred at Bohmore Cemetery in Galway City. His widow, Margaret,

985
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 2: had vowed to William Joyce one of her last prison

986
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 2: letters to him that she would write his biography after

987
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 2: he's martyrdom. When she died in nineteen seventy two, all

988
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 2: she left as a manuscript were a few scant biographical

989
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 2: details about Joyce scribbled on a piece of cardboard. That

990
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 2: didn't prevent Joyce, however, becoming an inspiration to new generations

991
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 2: of Nazis. First editions of Joyce's book Twilight Over England

992
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 2: are collector's items, often prized by neo Nazis and sell

993
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 2: for up to ten thousand dollars online today. In the

994
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties, American Nazi Party leader George Lincoln Rockwell inspired

995
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 2: Terry Byrne, an overweight Irish house painter who lived with

996
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 2: his mom in Dublin, to found the Irish Nazi Party.

997
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 2: Burne said yeah. Burne said that his political heroes were

998
01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 2: Adolf Hitler and William Joyce. Like he's hero, Commander Byrne was,

999
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: like Joyce, repeatedly stabbed on more than one occasion by

1000
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 2: anti fascist opponents in the IRA, but incredibly he survived

1001
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 2: until the nineteen eighties. For almost twenty years, he echoed

1002
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 2: Joyce by continually encouraging his followers to harassed Dublin's tiny

1003
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 2: Jewish community and attacked Jewish owned businesses there. Joyce also

1004
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 2: remains popular on the British phara right scene. Members of

1005
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 2: the British Neo Nazi Movement, or sorry, the Neo Nazi

1006
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 2: British Movement, founded by Rockwell's English pal Colin Jordan, who

1007
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 2: incidentally was once convicted of shoplifting women's underwear, visited Joyce's

1008
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 2: grave in Galway City earlier this year. To Lao reached

1009
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 2: him on the anniversary of his execution. So that Robert

1010
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:47,919
Speaker 2: is the Nazi bastard I have for you, he continues. Yeah,

1011
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 2: he continues to inspire hate from beyond the grave. But hey,

1012
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 2: at least he eventually got what he deserved after he

1013
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 2: was brought to justice by a Jewish refugee who shot

1014
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 2: him in the ass. So I consider that a happy end.

1015
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: Hey, you know what, We so rarely get a happy

1016
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: ending like this, where it's like, and then the Nazi died,

1017
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: and then the Nazi was killed, you know, before he

1018
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: could get rehabilitated or enjoy a peaceful life. He just

1019
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: somebody took that fucker out. And that's nice, that's happy.

1020
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm happy to hear that.

1021
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 2: There's your Christmas wish, Robert.

1022
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, what a beautiful story. Thank you so much.

1023
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: I think that's going to do it for us. Do

1024
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 1: you want to plug your pluggables down at the end here?

1025
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my pluggable really is my book Burned Them Out.

1026
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 2: It is a history of fascism and the far right

1027
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 2: in Ireland. It's published by Bloomsbury head of Zeus. So

1028
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 2: just google burn them Out Fascism Ireland and it should

1029
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 2: come up. And yeah, if you convite us, that would

1030
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 2: be great. Thank you very much, Mila Margat excellent.

1031
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 1: All right, well, thank you so much. And yeah, everybody,

1032
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: that has been our week. We're back next week with

1033
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: another piece of shit who probably lives a long life

1034
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: and dies in bed or is still alive one of

1035
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: the two. But at least this week there was a

1036
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: happy ending.

1037
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 6: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1038
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 6: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1039
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 6: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1040
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 6: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1041
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 6: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1042
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 6: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1043
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 6: at Behind the Bastards