WEBVTT - Dummies Guide to Stone Projectile Points w/ Dr. Adam Gray 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.840 You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network, brought to 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:07.080 you by Lacrosse Boots. Now Lacrosse is at it again 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.560 with a new line of lace up hunting boots, the 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:14.280 Navigator series. And in that Navigator series there are two models. 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.159 There's the Atlas for men and the wind Rows for 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.480 both men and women. To find out more information about 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:30.320 this new Navigator series, visit Lacrosse Footwear dot com. My 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:32.440 name is Clay Nucom and I'm the host of the 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.840 Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be your host into 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:41.880 the world of hunting the icon of North American wilderness. There, 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.480 we'll talk about tactics, gear, conservation, but will also bring 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.559 you into some of the wildest country on the planet. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:59.480 Chasing better something that's been in the ground for thousands 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:01.720 of years? How did it get there? Was it dropped? 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.520 Was it shot at something? And and and it's buried 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.479 and you come along and pick it up, and all 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.960 you can do is wonder how these people live? Everyone 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.399 I've picked up and you're I guess this is what 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:14.360 a lot of people think. But you learned how was 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:16.240 it lost? Was it shot at a deer? Was it 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.679 shot at a bear? Was it just discarded because it 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.480 was not usable anymore. Was it lost? Did someone give 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:28.200 it to his son and his irresponsible son lost it? 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:31.280 But that boy, right, there's lost a lot of stuff 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:37.880 of mine. If you are a hunter, there's probably deep 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:43.040 inside of you somewhere some real curiosity and a desire 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:48.160 to know more about Native Americans, how they use this land, 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:52.920 and how they hunted. On this podcast, we're gonna jump 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:59.840 start you by fifteen years in your knowledge of Native 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:05.160 of American stone projectile points number one, number two, who 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.160 came here first in North America, where they came from? 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:13.320 And all the different ideas of where these people came from, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:18.120 and and understanding of the different time periods in which 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:21.640 humans have been here in North America. And the reason 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.520 I say fifteen year jump start is because fifteen years 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:30.240 I've been highly interested in Native American stone projectile points 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.760 as we began to find points on our property in 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:37.200 different places, and I've just gathered information from different sources 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.880 different places. I never really could find like a dummies 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.880 guide to stone projectile points in Native American history of 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.040 North America, and so I wanted to sit down with 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.160 an expert. And that's just what we're gonna do on 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.400 this podcast when we sit down with Dr Adam Gray 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:58.040 and he talks about but we just have a fascinating 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.160 conversation for about an hour and fifteen minutes that really, 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.640 if you listen to this, you will have a ton 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:10.960 of valuable information that's going to that's gonna project you 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.880 into more study or if you just learn some of 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:18.799 this stuff, you're just gonna be fascinated. So incredible conversation, 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:23.320 you're gonna enjoy this podcast. I want to draw your 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.079 attention as well as we come into the fall season 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:29.079 here and we're baiting bears and different parts of the country. 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.799 To our friends at Northwoods Bear Products. They have a 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:38.760 full line of bear scent attractants and north Woods is 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:43.040 known far and wide for their gold Rush, which is 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.080 a friar grease addittive, which is one of my favorite 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.240 products that they have for drawing in bears. But they've 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.840 also got just spray bottles full of scent all types 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.960 of different flavors that've got some dry powder scents. But 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.880 check out our friends at north Woods the air products 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:05.320 this fall and we're pounding away right now on the 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:10.560 September October issue of Bear Hunting Magazine. This issue will 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.640 be in the hands of our subscribers before September one, 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:16.479 and it's a very good issue, a lot of good 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:20.800 how to stuff, a lot of a lot of great content. 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.400 We've got an article about Eddvance, who was on the 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:28.520 last podcast. We've got some scouting tips for fall bear hunting. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.000 We've got five creative ways to kill a bear in 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.039 twenty nineteen the fall. We've got this story about my 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.800 five and fifty pound Oklahoma black bear from last year. 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.160 So if you're not a subscriber to Bear Hunting Magazine, 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.240 check it out at bear dash Hunting dot com, Bear 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:58.200 hyphen Hunting dot com. We are in Melbourne, Arkansas. This 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:02.440 is my first time to Melbourne, Arkansas. Well, welcome. We're 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:05.640 in Melbourne, Arkansas, and uh I am in the home 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.919 of Dr Adam Gray. You're you're a medical doctor, Adam. 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.600 That's correct. I've just been calling you Adam. That's that's 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:15.960 all right. Please call me Adam. So where you you 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.640 work out of Melbourne? Is there a hospital in Melbourne? 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:20.400 There's not a hospital here, but I have a family 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.200 practice clinic here where at least space from Baxter Reason 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.080 Medical Center in Mountain Home and I have a family 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.760 practice clinic there with two nurse practitioners and also working 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.680 in an emergency room in Salem, Arkansas, and I also 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.840 attend to patients in five nursing comes around little jack 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.279 of jack of trades, you know, yeah, master of none. 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:42.719 Why I'm here is uh is you are? You? Were? 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.080 You were referred to me by a guy that I 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:49.120 kind of follow. That's beg into digging era heads for 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:55.320 the layman's terms, but stone projectile points Native American artifacts. 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.760 That's what you've devoted as I understand the last fifteen years, 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.880 you've you've become a collector. You're a you you find 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:07.159 our heads. You you know the you're you're a regional expert. 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.440 I would say, thank you. Um, I try to be 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:11.880 you know a lot more than me. Let me put 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.560 it out well, it's something that I've devoted a lot 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.159 of time too. And physicians are weird people. They don't 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.520 get into anything just a little bit there. There all 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.039 are none you know. Um. But but since I found 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.320 my very first area head with my son's mother about 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.320 fifteen years ago, it's become a hobby and a lot 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.760 of people would say an addiction. You know, there there 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:32.880 are people that that do this a lot, and and 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:34.960 it it takes up the large percentage of their time, 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.599 but it's it's a lot of fun. And it's great 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.320 fun for me and for my family. And I read 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.279 a lot of archaeology journals and learn about what we're finding, 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:46.440 and you can go back and learn about how these 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.359 people were living, you know, back in thousands and thousands 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:54.920 of years ago. Well, I'll start by telling you a 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:59.080 little bit of why I'm so interested in this and 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:00.760 and and I've already shared it with you a little bit. 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.440 But several years ago, we got mules. Were own seven 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:08.680 acres Washington County, Arkansas. There's a creek that borders the 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.440 front side of our property and a small tributary creek 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.520 that borders the western side. We started getting these mules, 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.760 and the mules made trails. They had spots where they 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.920 were rubbing, you know that where they were dusting, where 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:26.200 they ate the grass down, and where runoff started to create, 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:28.840 you know, bare spots out in this field, which is 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:33.600 bad for pasture health and soil health. But we started 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:39.360 bumping into these stone points in our front yard. And 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:41.400 and I'll tell you what I tell the kids every 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.800 time we pick one up is and it's so unique 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.520 when it happens on your own place, and we're gonna 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.320 we're gonna get into a lot more than just that. 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.160 But you know, when I picked up that air head, 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.000 that first one, I told the kids, I said, the 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.760 last human that touched this before me was planning to 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.960 cook his meal over an open fire with a critter 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.120 that he killed with this stone. Yes, And I have 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:09.040 said that exact thing to my kids on numerous occasions. 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:11.200 Something that's been in the ground for thousands of years, 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.200 How did he get there? Was it dropped? Was it 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:15.960 shot at something? And and and it's buried and you 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.000 come along and pick it up, and all you can 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:21.680 do is wonder how these people live? Everyone I've picked 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:23.960 up and you're probably I guess this is what a 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.040 lot of people think. But you learned. How was it lost? 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:27.880 Was it shot at a deer? Was it shot at 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.440 a bear? Was it just discarded because it was not 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.960 usable anymore? Was it lost? Did someone give it to 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:39.000 his son and his irresponsible son lost it? That never 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.520 happened that boy, right, there's lost a lot of stuff 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.600 of mine. Uh now, yeah, that's the mystery of it. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.320 I think that's the intrigue of finding this ancient stuff 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:55.000 with people that were really just like us. I mean, 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:59.200 they were they were humans. They they they had they 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.000 had dream teams, and they cared about their families, and 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.400 they wanted their sons and daughters to prosper, and they 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.520 they they had needs that had to be met. I mean, 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:13.240 they were humans, but they lived in this lifestyle that 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.760 is so different than us. Right. They were camping three 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.320 sixty five, I mean, you know, and following the food 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.280 and food and water and shelter. Those are the three 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.880 things they had to have. Yeah, And and so they 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.839 developed over time these technologies that that would allow them 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:33.160 to procure what they needed in order to to reproduce, 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.320 to survive, and eventually to thrive and become you know, 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.240 the Mississippian period Native Americans that we all think of 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:45.040 when we hear the word Indian, right right, right, Well, okay, 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.920 this conversation is going to be difficult because you know 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.480 so much and have so many questions, and we're sitting 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.120 here in your your office, your library, and you have 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:58.280 this amazing collection of stone points from all over well 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.080 and most of them would be from the South, if 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.560 I guess, But some of them would be from other places. Sure, 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.839 I collect points from from mainly from what we call 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:09.200 the Central States, which would be from Nebraska to West 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.480 Virginia and Michigan down to Louisiana that area. Yeah, all 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.080 all the points in this area are somewhat related to 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.160 each other through time and in different space. We call 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.080 it spatially. You know, they overlapped areas and UH as 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.600 these point types evolved over thirteen thousand, five hundred years, 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:30.520 you can see uh similarities between different types of points 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.920 and you can see the evolution process and that gives 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.760 you clues into what the climate was like, and what 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.600 they were hunting and UH and and what they were 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:41.760 using these points for because not all of these points 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.880 were shot at things. Some of them would have been knives, 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.040 some of them may have been a true spirit point, 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.520 some may have been a true arrow point, some may 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:53.280 have been a tip to in that Lattle Dart. So, well, 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:58.440 there's several things I want to talk about. The first thing, 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.240 and and we're approached, and this from the standpoint of 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:06.360 like we're talking to people that don't know anything about 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.600 well about these people. And so my my first question 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.480 or what I want to talk about first is where 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.000 did these people come from? Boy, that's that's the sixty 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.960 four dollar question right there, and and and there is 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.320 there has been a theory that's been around for a 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.640 long time, and it's called the Clovis first theory. And that's, uh, 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.360 that's the null void point right now that we're trying 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.480 to figure out is that the case or not. But 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:38.120 that theory says, basically that it's believed that the first 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:43.440 Americans came across a Siberian land bridge over into Alaska, 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.200 through an ice free corridor through Alaska and Canada and 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.160 populated North America and then spread out into Central and 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:54.000 South America from there. Um. That theory that's been widely 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.520 accepted for a long time, a long time, a long time. 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.000 But there are some problems with that theory. And and 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.360 one of those theories is that one of the problems 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:05.640 with that theory is that that when they radiocarbon date um, 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.840 you can't radiocarbon data point, but you can radiocarbon date 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.320 something that's sitting next to it, like a like a 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:15.079 burnt acorn shell or hickory shell, because something that's got 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.040 carbon in it. When they get these associated dates for 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.760 Clovis points. They date older in the southeastern United States 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:26.079 and they do anywhere near Alaska or the northwestern United States, 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.520 and so that doesn't make sense. It doesn't want to 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.800 even stop you right there. So the Baring land Bridge 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.600 would have been an ice free zone because of glaciers 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.040 and a much colder climate, so the oceans were lower. 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.199 They were because much of the Earth's water was capped 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:48.600 into these glaciers. And so basically from Alaska to the 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.559 camp Chatka Peninsula of Russia would have been this thousand 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.839 mile wide land bridge. I recently heard a podcast from 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.360 a guy, uh Steve Ronnella, so some of the something 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.880 is just fresh on my mind. But they talked about 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:07.000 how and certainly people did cross that land bridge. They did, 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.360 so it's not we're not debating whether they crossed. What 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.840 you're going to talk about in a minute is the 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.320 theory of where they the first, because that's been the 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:17.920 that's been the main thing is were they the first people? 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.480 And so the that theory would have been that people 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:25.000 crossed over from Asia and they came in and from 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:29.520 Alaska basically populated North and South America. The Clovis site 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.640 is in New Mexico. And so what you're saying is 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.560 is that the oldest site that we know of from 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:40.120 radio carbon dating, finding these points, finding this mammoth skeleton 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.600 skeleton would have been older than anything north of it. 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.079 So if they would have been the first, there should 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.719 have been older sites. They're correct, and that's not what 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.600 they're finding, and so that doesn't support that theory. And 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.800 so there are some other theories that are being put 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.480 forth right now, and and some some have a lot 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.400 of support and some have a few. One of those 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.559 theories is that, Okay, let's let's go back and talk 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.360 about the Clovis Point for just a minute. Clovis points 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.640 are what we call fluted. The base of the point 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.880 has been thinned with something called direct percussion, where they 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.120 hit the rock directly and knocked flakes off of it 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:22.880 and thinned it. Um That technology does not exist anywhere 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.440 else on planet Earth. It is, and it is it 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.800 is only in North America, and it's widely regarded as 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:33.640 being the first invention in the New World because it's 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.400 not found anywhere else. But it's unlikely that someone stepped 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:39.680 across the burying land bridge and knocked out of Clovis 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.440 Point and went from there. They were using some kind 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.040 of tools before that technology was developed. So a lot 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:50.960 of people now believe that the Clovis technology started somewhere 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.280 in the southeastern United States and the technology spread much 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.480 more rapidly than the people spread. But it spread probably 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:03.200 northward and westward into a population that already existed. And 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.880 and so if if you believe that, then you still 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.600 have to ask the question what kind of tools were 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.320 they using before that? Where did they come from? Okay, 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:15.400 so if that, if what you just said is what happened, 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.040 then does that tell me Explain to me how that 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.680 could nullify that the that they weren't the first people. 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.400 The first people didn't come from the land bridge, right. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.520 First of all, we we do have a lot of 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:33.520 information that we know that that Native American populations in 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:37.200 the United States and in Central America share certain genetic 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:41.520 haplotypes with people from Siberia. So we do know that 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:45.960 the d n A came from Siberia, at least some 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:47.960 of it. You know, there's no way to prove all 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:50.120 of it didn't, But so we do know they came 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.400 that from there. But but the the every all of 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.000 them did, that's a good question. We really don't know. 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.040 There's some some theories that say that there may be 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.880 some European d n A in groups um up in 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.520 the northeastern United States that share a lot of their 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.920 language patterns with Norwegian languages and the and and that 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.280 there were blue eyed Native Americans up in that part 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.280 of the country also, and so some people that would 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.600 have crossed over maybe a similar type of passage, you know, 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.440 maybe from Norway through green Land and Iceland that area, 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:26.000 maybe skimming along the the oh when when there was 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:31.480 when the oceans were lower and there would be could 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.440 be right, So that's that's another theory. And and there's 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.800 also a theory that the cloths technology came from a 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.520 previous technology that that that existed in France called a 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.520 salutary in technology. There are a lot of similarities between 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:49.040 the two technologies. Uh Solutrians didn't flute their points, but 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.680 but other than that, the technologies and the toolkits that 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.560 they used were very similar. Um. So there's could it 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:56.920 could it not be possible that two people would come 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.440 up with the same thing though independently there's that highly 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.320 unlike it's highly unlikely because if it were to happen, 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.399 it wouldn't happen in the same continent. It would have 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.399 happened around the world, like so many other different technologies 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.720 have evolved. Okay, I see what's so you're saying, because 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:15.520 it happened one place here and something very similar happened 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.120 one place here, that they're connected. If it had happened 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:22.280 ten places, maybe this is like it would make more sense. 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:24.480 This is just the way that kind of if you 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.080 have a rock and you want to kill something and 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.200 start knocking around on it, you get that point, right right, 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.520 convergent evolution. I think that I think the biologists would 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.200 call that so rather than divergent evolution. But there are 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.200 many many technologies around the world that have evolved separate 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.920 from one another but ended up being the same thing, 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.160 you know. But but I don't think the flutid point 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.200 technology is one of those at all. So we're looking 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.159 at we're looking at a fluted point type that that 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.159 was invented in North America and found nowhere else in 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:57.200 the world. First American invention, right, very first. Yeah, Yeah, 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.000 that's that's an interesting way to look at that. Uh. 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.560 There are also some theories that that maybe um, some 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:08.040 Polynesians or other groups populated the western hemisphere from South America, 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.120 the very southern part of South America, where there are 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:14.640 some very old uh sites down there that dated date 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.760 much older than anything in North America. Uh. There's another 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.360 point type in South and Central America called the hel 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.639 Hobo Point, and there are some people who are theorizing 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.160 now that that point type traveled north from there and 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:31.600 then became a fluted point called a Cumberland point, and 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.280 that Cumberland points evolved into Clovis points. Now that's a 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.600 sticky that's a sticky subject with a lot of people, 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.280 because everybody's got their opinion on this. But the problem 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.680 with it is Cumberland points haven't been well dated anywhere yet. Well, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.720 so are you saying that the oldest sites that we 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:52.679 know between North and South America are in South America? Okay? 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.840 So for that with that, when did that knowledge come forth? 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.520 It's been in the last fifteen or twenty years relatively, right, 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.840 I mean, I guess for And I've talked to several 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.840 vocational archaeologists about that, and and some of them just 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:09.200 blow it off and say, no, there's problems with the data. 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.560 The dates aren't good, things like this. But there's a 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.679 whole another camp. And that's how science works. You have 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.840 to put forth something and then you discuss it and 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.320 they come to a consensus about it. Twenty years later 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.800 they decide if it was writer right. So but but inside, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:27.280 I mean it is plausible. I guess that inside of 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.320 the burying land bridge theory, what would you what would 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.440 you call that? Just some clothes first, and the first 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.520 kind of encompasses that. So with the clothes first theology, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.600 it's it would just be happenstance that just the oldest 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.680 site we found was in South America. Like so there's 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.280 older ones, we just hadn't found them. This just happens 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.320 to be the one we found way down there. And 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.600 and there are some there are some sites in North 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:57.680 America that that have been radiocarbon dated human occupation older 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:01.119 than any any known low the states that we have 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.320 in North America, um, the Topper site, the met Across 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.760 Rock Shelter site, with some sites that we know there 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.840 were people living there, we just haven't found any tools 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.680 yet or anything that's diagnostic that can tell us these 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:18.320 people were these people. So then they've got some very 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.879 crude stone tools. I think that's eventually gonna happen. I 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.240 think those sites are extremely rare and we just haven't 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.280 found the right one yet. You know, when you think 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:33.119 about the amount of land space in the in the 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:38.040 amount of that space that has actually been excavated by 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.160 people that knew what they were doing, right, I mean, 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.160 I'm just novice, just thinking, but I mean, it's like 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:47.119 there could be something two ft under the foundation of 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:51.399 your house that could unlock the whole story and that 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.840 will never know You never know it's there, I mean, 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:55.119 And so I guess you, I mean, you just have 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.119 to work with what you do know, right, And and 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.920 I'm I would call myself in a vocational archaeologist and 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.320 amateur archaeologists. And you know, I don't do this for 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.040 a living. I do it for fun. I don't excavate 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:10.080 in a controlled fashion like archaeologists do. But they're archaeologists 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:12.560 are limited in what they can do. They first of all, 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:15.600 they're relying on public moneys most of the time, which 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:17.840 is limited and it's just not a priority in our 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.199 culture unfortunately. But they're also limited by time. They have 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.480 to stand back and and brush dirt off of things 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.080 and find them and record them. And we're we're you know, 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:29.480 people who like to go out and find their heads. 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:31.879 You know, they do it at there when they want to, 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:34.000 when the weather is good, and they do a lot 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.159 of it. And so most of the knowledge that we 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.080 have about point types actually come from people who don't 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:44.800 do this for a living. Yeah, that's interesting. So the 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:47.800 best thing that can happen is is for archaeologists and 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:51.080 and people who hunt these points to come together and 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:54.879 and find a way to work together to identify a site. 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.359 And I'll give you a good example. Dr Julie morrow 0:21:57.760 --> 0:21:59.639 Over at a s u IS is a friend of 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.520 my and she has spent a significant portion of her 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.399 career and looking for a Clovis site in Arkansas that 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.480 is stratified and can be dated and studied, and it 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.760 just hasn't happened yet. Um, and she's not gonna be 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:15.120 by Clovis side. That means the technology of that fluted 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:19.439 point bottom right and and and she's not likely to 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:22.840 find that unless somebody comes forward somewhere and says, hey, 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.640 we're finding this stuff here, you need to come excavate this. 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:28.600 And so you know, we've got to figure out a 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:34.320 way to work together. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. So okay, 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:37.760 so we've established that. Now, would you say the clothes 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.840 first is still the predominant theory, but there's just some 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:45.159 other things that kind of don't make sense, don't totally 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.400 make sense, right and and so right now we're still 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:50.000 going with that theory. Closed first. That's the oldest point 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:54.159 type that we know of. So that was five years, yes, roughly, yes, so, 0:22:55.640 --> 0:23:00.439 but that's in New Mexico. Right, So the first the 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:04.080