WEBVTT - How We Lost the Gun Argument 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:19.959 me your Girl, Danielle Moody recording from the home Bunker, Folks, 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:25.720 I am very excited for today's conversation with our resident 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:31.520 in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Mepzil. Jonathan's new book, What 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.919 We've Become launch this week and him and I are 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:41.320 going to be having a conversation in person in Brooklyn 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.800 on February fifth at seven pm at green Light Bookstore. 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:52.559 And you know, in today's conversation, we delve into the 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:58.920 ways in which we have vast differences not only in 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:03.480 this country between parties, but also in terms of our 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:08.920 experiences as it pertains to freedom, liberty, and justice for all. 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:16.600 And what surprised me about today's conversation is how Jonathan's 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:28.360 book really lays bare how white supremacy, privilege, and freedoms 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:33.880 are wrapped around the barrel of a gun and have been. 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:44.400 And if that is the position of the right, then 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:54.080 how do we reposition ourselves and the conversation about gun 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:57.560 control in this country, gun control, gun reform, whatever it 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.280 is that you want to call it. But what Jonathan's 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:08.079 new book lays out is that painting the issue as 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:14.360 a public health crisis doesn't provide us with the depth 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:20.520 and breath that we need to approach this issue. And sometimes, look, 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.440 you can go at things right over and over again 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:31.840 and wonder why you aren't making any progress, or because 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.640 you've been going at something the same way over and 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:39.079 over again, be afraid to pivot because you've already expended 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.840 all of this energy, time, research. And what Jonathan's book offers, 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.760 and I just think that the entire conversation offers, is 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:51.800 that we should always be open to the pivot, to 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:57.880 the thinking about something new, because if what you are 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:05.440 doing is not working, then you have got to change course. 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:12.000 And his book, What We've Become, is exactly that, a 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:18.720 change in course, a shift in narrative, and an opportunity 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:25.280 for us to see the gun reform movement through a 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:32.919 different lens and through a different perspective. So coming up next, 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:42.800 my conversation with our friend doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.320 know that whenever we have the opportunity to chat with 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:50.080 our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel on his launch 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:56.440 day for his new book, What We've Become, I'm so excited, folks. 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.840 If you are in the New York area, on February 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:04.560 fifth at green Light Bookstore in Brooklyn. Jonathan and I 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:08.120 will be sitting down in person for conversation about his 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.280 new book and about you know, the state of the 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:13.440 world and mass shootings and guns and all of those things. 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.440 So do go to Jonathan meetzil dot com. You'll get 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.760 all of the details I am sharing on social all 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:25.599 of the platforms. Jonathan, Hello, my friend, how are you. 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:27.200 Happy launch day? 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:31.799 To you? Thank you, thank you. It's it's been a thrilling, great, 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:37.159 and you know, confusing day. I did PBS last night, 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.560 I did a couple of pieces this morning. I'm just 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.840 laying low here kind of waiting for all the other 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:47.320 action to start. But this goes in all these ways. 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.760 You know, you get a lot of you know, feedback 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:51.600 because your ideas are out in the world, which I 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.040 think is really nice. I think, as I've talked about 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.200 a lot here, this book has been really hard and 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:02.000 challenging to write because I started in one place, and 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.000 five years later it took me to a place I 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:08.080 was not expecting. I started off as a complete advocate 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:12.200 for public health based gun reform, and I still feel 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.200 that way. I'm still a strong proponent of gun laws. 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.279 But it made me think that we're missing the point 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.120 a little bit. I mean, that's kind of in part. 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:26.880 The point of the book is that we're understandably, I mean, 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:28.880 the book is about trauma and what it does to 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.039 families and communities. We're shouting about injuries and deaths, but 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.400 the other side is just playing by a totally different 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:40.039 playbook that we are not responding to whatsoever, which is 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:44.000 a playbook about power and authority and judges. And over 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.799 the course of my book, people on my side kept saying, 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.240 you know, now, by now eighty five percent of people 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.200 want background checks. The support is great. But while we 0:05:55.240 --> 0:06:02.440 were doing that, the other side was overturning public carry 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:07.479 gun laws in thirty nine states, and we surpassed five 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.640 hundred million civilian owned guns in this country, and the 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.960 Supreme Court overturned even New York's public carry gun laws. 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.360 And so there's a real disconnect between one side, which 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:21.240 is arguing for health and morality, and I think this 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.080 is on the side of right. I mean, I'm very 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:25.479 clear about that, but the other side is playing by 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.640 a power game. And I just didn't feel like the 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:31.679 public health response was enough really to what we're facing. 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.440 I really think we need to change really the terms 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:36.880 of the debate and the structure and what we're advocating. 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:42.960 So is it then too, because I guess, to your point, 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.839 the public and I remember when there was like the 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.000 shift to the public health debate, and I was sitting 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:53.960 with other doctors several years ago talking about gun violence 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.520 and you know, and how they wanted to reframe it 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.880 and come from a place of heart in the same 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.440 way that we would look at you know, heart disease 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.440 and cancer rates, and you know, and and how they 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:12.320 affect different communities. To your point, though, when you're dealing 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.720 with a group with the Republican Party, with maga supremis 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:22.960 who feel that their guns are their power right and 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:27.680 they are absolute about it, and because of their absolutism, 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:33.840 we have an epidemic in this country. To you, is 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:38.960 it then that democrats and progressives shift to a place 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.160 of power? You know? Is it is it to be 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:47.000 like the Republicans but for the greater good? What what 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.680 is that without? You know, obviously we want people to 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.800 pick up your book, but what does that mean in 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.080 terms of moving from a place of heart to power? 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:57.920 In your in your mind. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.400 Well, there are two levels of that, and I admit 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:02.080 in the book, and I'll admit right now that they 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.320 are in tension with each other. They're not the same. 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:05.840 But I think there are two ways we have to 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:11.640 think about that. One is that the problem that democrats 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.600 are facing is much bigger. Like cigarettes were a public 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.880 health problem. People were smoking a cigarette in restaurants, people 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:23.160 were getting secondhand smoke, and that led to a public 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.840 health intervention, which is, let's hold the cigarette makers accountable. 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.720 Let's show research that will convince people the second hand 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.040 smoke is a danger. Everybody has an aunt or an 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.160 uncle or a neighbor who has lung cancer, they're going 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.959 to understand that same thing. With seat belts, seat belts. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.480 Faulty seat belts were killing people. Faulty cars were killing people. 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.439 Everybody drives. At one point, everybody knew someone who'd gotten 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.040 in a terrible car wreck, and we could hold the 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:56.199 car makers responsible. We applied that model to guns, really, 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.120 as I tell in the book, starting in the nineteen 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.120 nineties when that model mates, because at that time we thought, hey, 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:03.960 it's worked for all these other things, and it was 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.320 totally reasonable to think it was going to work against guns. 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.800 But the problem is what happened over the subsequent decades 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:16.720 was that first of all, the gun industry was shielded 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:21.520 from the kind of product liability lawsuits that would have 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.480 made a public health argument really have teeth, which so 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:27.480 it never really did that. But the other thing is 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.520 guns are just a really fundamentally different entity than our 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:35.640 cigarettes and cars. They tie into the racial history of 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:40.680 the United States, They tie into really deeply North South politics. 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.080 Somebody in the North can yell gun control now, and 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:48.240 somebody in the sALS will say you're oppressing my freedom 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:50.000 and liberty and all this kind of it just means 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.880 something really different. And so a public health model that 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.640 was coming from blue state America just didn't make any 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.280 conceptual sense. And I think over time those fissures get 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.280 to be much greater. So that's the bigger part of 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.600 the story, which is that that argument really was something 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.480 that the Nray understood and liberal America didn't, which is 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:16.240 that you know, they could use the public health argument 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.440 to sew resentment in the South like these people are 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.719 coming after in ways that played out, for example in 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:26.040 the pandemic, and it left us without adequate strategies for 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.040 the bigger issues that were happening. The bigger issues were 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:33.080 that basically the right and the South were using the 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:39.240 gun issue to overturn state legislatures, kick out centrists, take 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.120 over the judiciary, which it was huge, And so part 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.320 of the story is a health argument really was glossing 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.600 over what was happening, which was that Red State America 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:55.200 was sowing the seeds of authoritarianism using the gun issue. 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:56.920 And to me, that's kind of the main argument of 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.959 the book is that a health argument made it hard 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.640 for us to see what was really happening down here 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.240 in Red state America because health seemed like common sense 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.720 to us. But health was a really useful foil for 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.320 Red state America to do something that the health argument 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.000 was never going to give you an answer to, which 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:21.280 was take over the judiciary, takeover politics, and then use 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:25.880 that as a missile basically to then take over Blue 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.040 state America if you look at, for example, what happened 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.400 with the Supreme Court last year. So that's kind of 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:34.560 the meta argument of the book is that a health 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.960 argument we didn't see that, we didn't see what was 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.600 really happening, how that was being used in Red state America. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.680 But then the second layer of the book is that 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.160 I do think there's an opportunity. Now the NRA is 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:52.280 kind of imploding on itself. People are really starting to wonder. 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.319 I mean, here in Tennessee, we've had so many horrible 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.680 mass shootings and people are wondering, like, where do I 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.360 go from here? And I think in red state in America, 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.080 there's a hunger to say, give me something that I 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.679 can use here and coming in and saying background checks 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.240 and red flag laws that shite don't fly down here. 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:15.520 I mean that is government intervention and government databases. And 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:17.800 so the other part of the book is I think 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:22.360 we need a new agenda that actually speaks to voters 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.000 who are going to be really important in the election, 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.720 coming up with a who are like kind of blue 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.040 and I mean, I'm sorry Red and purple state people 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.880 who want an agenda that speaks to their concerns. And 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.800 so ultimately, I also do offer a lot of practical 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:41.720 solutions in the book for how we can strategize ways 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.840 to change guns safety reform in ways that meets the 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.400 interests of gun owners. Basically, in other words, we're not 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.040 against gun owners. That was a mistake that The New 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.320 York Times made in the review of my book this morning. 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.600 We're not against gun owners, but gun reform doesn't speak 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.760 to their interests. If we're rushing in and saying we 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.280 need government regulation, you need to actually answer their concerns 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.600 in a much more structural way so that they can 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.520 materially see how that might be beneficial to them. So 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.480 those are the two threads. But yeah, those are the 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.280 two threads. But they're complicated. 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.080 No, no, no, And it's helpful, and I appreciate the 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:18.960 way that you've laid it out. I have a couple 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.640 of follow up questions that I think may help people 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.080 get a little bit more granular in terms of what 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.280 it is that you're offering. So first, you know, when 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.520 you say that what Republicans were doing in Red States 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:37.880 was seating the ground of authoritarianism, right, and I'll you know, 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.520 echo that, and add, you know absolutism, that there is 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:45.360 no room right when when we're talking about authoritarian regimes, 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:51.160 where we're talking about absolutism, there is no room for compromise, 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.440 for conversation for anything other than what is being dictated to. 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:00.160 I wonder, however, because Jonathan, you and I have had conversations, 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.000 you know, over the years where we lament the way 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:09.560 that democrats message and I wonder if even us saying 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.360 authoritarianism is that too big of a concept and a 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:18.000 word for people to understand what it is that the 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.880 right had been doing while we were focused on changing 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:22.760 hearts and minds. 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:29.040 Well, here's a useful metaphor. COVID hit. Half the country assumed, 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:33.000 here's a virus that's going to kill us as humans. 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.000 We all are on the same side here. But Red 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.880 State America and Trump saw it as an opportunity to 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.000 play on the fears that have been fomenting really for 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.920 decades under the gun lobby, which is these blue state 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.520 people are telling you what to do. It's the government 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:50.840 kind of telling you what to do. And so we 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:55.240 assumed that a health message was universal. Everybody was going 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.120 to be on the same side about COVID. But the 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:01.520 other side said, look, they're rushing in with the government, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:03.680 and the government is going to control your health. They're 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.160 going to take away your freedom and liberty, your kids 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.560 can't go to school, you're going to lose your job. 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.240 And that place to red state resentment and anxiety, which 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.760 is massively, massively mobilizing. It gets people to vote, It 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:21.200 gets people to push out centrists. Then when people get elected, 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:23.840 it gets them to put in judges who are going 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.840 to overturn, you know, like in Florida they put in 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.960 an attorney general who is now banning vaccines and stuff 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.280 like that. So it leads people, pushes people that anxiety 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.760 about liberals coming in to take away your freedom and liberty. 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.000 Now that sounds like a stereotype, but it sure is 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.120 a prevalent one. And what I show is that's been building. 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.080 It didn't just happen in the vaccines. It's been building 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.400 over thirty thirty years, really as part of the gun debate, 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.520 and so again and again and again, the red state 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.440 America would say, look, they're coming to take away your guns, 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.960 and that would red state people would go out and 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.600 droves to support people. And what the NRA and GOP 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.640 did with that power is that they then put in 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.320 place judges like one judge I write about was like 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:14.920 thirty five years old, he'd never tried a case in 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:19.280 his life in Mississippi. His only criteria was he was 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.280 a lifelong member of the NRA and he would vote 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.280 for gun rights anytime. And that this all the way 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.440 up to the Supreme Court and so they had a 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:29.920 model of using what felt for them like liberal overreach 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.760 to really sow the seeds of power. And that power 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:38.480 was something that a health model was never going to refute, right, 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:40.560 because they all of a sudden, there are all these lifetime 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:45.640 judges who are supporting even the most seemingly ridiculous you know, 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.040 guns on campus, guns on park in parks. And so 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:54.800 the gun debate really created a kind of foundation of 0:16:54.840 --> 0:17:00.000 power that really pushed out any reasonable people. And again, 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.120 and the health argument, I believe in health, I believe 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.280 in gun laws, but I don't think it's a counter 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.239 to what we were seeing in the South, which is 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:16.159 guns became a vehicle for really structural institutional power, and 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.520 every time we would rush in and say we need 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.480 more government databases and stuff like that, they would just 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.399 use it to gain more power. And that was something 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.840 that was never part of our calculus and still isn't 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:27.560 in a way. 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.520 Jonathan talk to us about you know, the story that 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:39.600 you lift up in the book is one that is 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:44.240 based largely in race, right and racism. And I think 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:48.440 that oftentimes when we're having conversations, not you and I, 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.760 I mean, like the bigger we are having conversations we 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.960 discount how race and racism plays into and is baked 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.320 into the policies that are being offered. So can you 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:03.959 talk to us about how in your meta you know, 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:09.560 layered plan, how you how you understand racism and race 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:11.000 being at play. 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.280 I mean, it's it's at the core a story about race. 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:20.360 A naked white man travels from Illinois where he really 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.520 shouldn't have had guns. You know, this guy had been 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.280 stopped by the cops a bunch of times. He'd gone 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:29.000 to the White House and tried to jump the fence 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.920 at the White House. He gets arrested, given over to 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.480 the FBI. Is the FBFL. The FBI says he shouldn't 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:39.280 have guns, and so part of the story is that 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:43.840 if anybody else about a white man yanked this wankie, 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.399 you know, they would have been dead or in jail. 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:48.480 And so part of the story is about the privilege 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.000 of the white male gun owner. This guy kept getting 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.639 his guns back. I mean, it's just unbelievable, Like he 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.439 kept getting his guns back. The cops gave him his 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.440 guns back, his dad gave him his guns back. Even 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.440 after the Yeah, he got his guns back. So part 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.880 of it was about the stereotype of the white male 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.000 gun owner walking around in the world being seen as 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:12.080 a trope of freedom and protector and all this stuff 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:16.360 in ways that other people just do not get that, right. 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.040 I said, like, this would be a two page book 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.040 if it was a book about a black man. A 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.280 black man pulled this for five seconds and he's dead, 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.040 and that you know, that's the end of the story. 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:26.640 And so I write about that a lot. So part 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.200 of the story is about the body of the pre 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.840 shooting white male gun owner. But then you know, something 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.000 really important happens, which is he gets his guns confiscated, 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:38.920 they give the guns to his dad, his dad gives 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.280 him the guns back, and then he drives to Tennessee. 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.800 Why does he drive to Tennessee. It's because in Illinois 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.720 he can't have his guns legally, but in Tennessee he's 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.240 a legal white man with a gun. There's no gun 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.440 laws in Tennessee in a way, And so part of 0:19:55.520 --> 0:20:00.000 the story was the allure of his freedom, his privilege, 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:04.080 his esteem, like Tennessee mirrored his version of himself as 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:08.840 like being a proud white male gun owner. So part 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:14.120 of it was about how when he's in Tennessee, Tennessee 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:18.200 mirrors his values because it reinforces his privilege as is, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.760 you know, embedded in his body and his guns. And 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.760 then he becomes a killer. And after the shooting, the 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:32.040 state apparatus mobilizes to in a way support the rights 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.399 of men like him the whole There's a gubernatorial election 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:38.679 I write about in the book a few months after 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:45.320 the shooting, and overwhelmingly they vote in a governor, Governor Lee, 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.679 whose platform was we're going to have no gun laws. 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.679 And so in a way, the apparatus saw the shooter 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.600 as a reflection of their values in ways that made 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.320 it just much easier for this shooting to happen again. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.720 And so the third part of how race functions is 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.560 at this structural level where it's really just the institutions 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:14.800 reward even the most extreme, pornographic, pathological instances of when 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.600 it's so clear that these white bodies and white guns 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:21.199 are killing black bodies, which is really the story, we 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:25.280 build these institutions that assure that this is going to 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.359 happen again. It's an institutional story. 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:30.280 And I just you know, and I will say and 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:32.080 thank you because the way that you laid that out 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:36.720 was just you know, breathtaking, because I have to tell 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:40.000 you that there for me when I listen, when I read, 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:47.000 you know, and hear these stories, this is America fundamentally, 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.640 through and through right, Like this is that the story 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.800 that you reference? You know what you're writing. This is 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:59.360 the story of America. It is about murtyring, subjugating, oppressing 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.600 black bodies, like that is it? That is the birth 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:04.880 of this nation. It will be the death of this nation. 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:07.719 And I, you know, I and I honestly I have 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:11.960 to say that I have in this moment just like 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:16.600 such clarity around the fact that, like, I don't think 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:19.760 that anything will ever change. I really don't. Like I 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.800 think that there will always be I think that white 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:29.680 men will always win in terms of this debate, because 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.720 fundamentally it goes back to the founding of this country, 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:39.280 about their toxic masculinity, about domination, about their exceptionalism, and 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:44.240 that in that entire fantasy, psychotic fantasy, is tied up 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:49.040 into gun ownership. And so you know, it doesn't matter 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:52.280 how many white kindergarten children are murdered, it doesn't matter 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:56.640 how many. You know, they're just the cost of freedom. 0:22:57.000 --> 0:23:02.240 And if that is your and now assists, then I 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.080 never see you being able to be moved. 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:07.960 You know, as I was saying before, The New York 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:10.280 Times this morning called the book mild, and I'm really 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:13.600 perplexed by this because to call it mild, you'd have 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.199 to totally miss the race critique. Or maybe this is 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:20.160 mild for some people. But what I write is that 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.840 black Americans are also sold the false promise that if 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:26.320 they two buy guns, they're going to have equality with 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:30.399 white people under the Second Amendment. And I really, really 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:33.280 really take that down in the book to show that 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:37.800 black Americans with guns is used as an anxiety to 0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:41.080 trope to sell more guns to white people. And it's 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.639 really clear even when even when the shooting makes so 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:48.879 clear where this is all taking us. And so we 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:52.080 do see a lot of Black Americans buying guns, and 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:54.760 that's part of why I argue that the health paradigm 0:23:55.280 --> 0:24:00.000 is losing. The biggest, most expansive body of gun owners 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:04.159 now are black women actually, and also liberals, progressives, and 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.880 Black Americans, who for so long stood as like the 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:12.360 hallmark not just of Democrats but of gun reform. They 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:14.320 were like the people who always voted for gun reform 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:16.840 because in the nineties. They had seen what guns did 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:19.920 to their communities, but when so many white people started 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:22.040 getting guns, they started saying, well, we better get guns 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:24.040 as well. But this was I mean, the NRA is 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:27.760 an arms dealer. They're trying to arm both sides. And 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:31.880 so what I show is the false promise is what 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:34.440 we're selling to Black Americans is not the promise of 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:37.680 equality if you get guns. Also, it's a way of 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:42.320 stimulating more and better gun sales among white Americans. And 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:46.080 to me, it's just such a vicious cycle because the 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:49.679 outcomes are exactly what this shooting shows and reveals and 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:55.760 reflects and portends, which is hierarchy and death. And so 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:58.840 in a way, I'll just say that ultimately, what I 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:01.679 say is that the naked white body of the shooter, 0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:05.359 as you say, is a reflection of American choices and 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:08.200 values in addition to a pathology of them. 0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:11.280 Yeah, and I just you know, I would just add that, like, 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:16.360 I don't think that black Americans believe that gun ownership 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:20.000 is akin to equity. I think that black Americans are 0:25:20.119 --> 0:25:24.960 very aware that we will never fully ever be seen 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:27.720 as equal in this country, and that you're going to 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:29.639 kill us if we're unarmed, you're going to kill us. 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:32.600