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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with

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Speaker 1: me your Girl, Danielle Moody recording from the home Bunker, Folks,

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Speaker 1: I am very excited for today's conversation with our resident

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Speaker 1: in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Mepzil. Jonathan's new book, What

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Speaker 1: We've Become launch this week and him and I are

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Speaker 1: going to be having a conversation in person in Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: on February fifth at seven pm at green Light Bookstore.

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Speaker 1: And you know, in today's conversation, we delve into the

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Speaker 1: ways in which we have vast differences not only in

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Speaker 1: this country between parties, but also in terms of our

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Speaker 1: experiences as it pertains to freedom, liberty, and justice for all.

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Speaker 1: And what surprised me about today's conversation is how Jonathan's

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Speaker 1: book really lays bare how white supremacy, privilege, and freedoms

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Speaker 1: are wrapped around the barrel of a gun and have been.

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Speaker 1: And if that is the position of the right, then

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Speaker 1: how do we reposition ourselves and the conversation about gun

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Speaker 1: control in this country, gun control, gun reform, whatever it

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Speaker 1: is that you want to call it. But what Jonathan's

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Speaker 1: new book lays out is that painting the issue as

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Speaker 1: a public health crisis doesn't provide us with the depth

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Speaker 1: and breath that we need to approach this issue. And sometimes, look,

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Speaker 1: you can go at things right over and over again

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Speaker 1: and wonder why you aren't making any progress, or because

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Speaker 1: you've been going at something the same way over and

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Speaker 1: over again, be afraid to pivot because you've already expended

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Speaker 1: all of this energy, time, research. And what Jonathan's book offers,

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Speaker 1: and I just think that the entire conversation offers, is

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Speaker 1: that we should always be open to the pivot, to

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Speaker 1: the thinking about something new, because if what you are

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Speaker 1: doing is not working, then you have got to change course.

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Speaker 1: And his book, What We've Become, is exactly that, a

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Speaker 1: change in course, a shift in narrative, and an opportunity

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Speaker 1: for us to see the gun reform movement through a

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Speaker 1: different lens and through a different perspective. So coming up next,

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Speaker 1: my conversation with our friend doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you

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Speaker 1: know that whenever we have the opportunity to chat with

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Speaker 1: our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel on his launch

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Speaker 1: day for his new book, What We've Become, I'm so excited, folks.

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Speaker 1: If you are in the New York area, on February

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Speaker 1: fifth at green Light Bookstore in Brooklyn. Jonathan and I

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Speaker 1: will be sitting down in person for conversation about his

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Speaker 1: new book and about you know, the state of the

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Speaker 1: world and mass shootings and guns and all of those things.

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Speaker 1: So do go to Jonathan meetzil dot com. You'll get

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Speaker 1: all of the details I am sharing on social all

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Speaker 1: of the platforms. Jonathan, Hello, my friend, how are you.

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Speaker 1: Happy launch day?

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Speaker 2: To you? Thank you, thank you. It's it's been a thrilling, great,

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Speaker 2: and you know, confusing day. I did PBS last night,

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Speaker 2: I did a couple of pieces this morning. I'm just

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Speaker 2: laying low here kind of waiting for all the other

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Speaker 2: action to start. But this goes in all these ways.

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Speaker 2: You know, you get a lot of you know, feedback

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Speaker 2: because your ideas are out in the world, which I

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Speaker 2: think is really nice. I think, as I've talked about

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Speaker 2: a lot here, this book has been really hard and

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Speaker 2: challenging to write because I started in one place, and

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Speaker 2: five years later it took me to a place I

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Speaker 2: was not expecting. I started off as a complete advocate

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Speaker 2: for public health based gun reform, and I still feel

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Speaker 2: that way. I'm still a strong proponent of gun laws.

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Speaker 2: But it made me think that we're missing the point

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Speaker 2: a little bit. I mean, that's kind of in part.

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Speaker 2: The point of the book is that we're understandably, I mean,

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Speaker 2: the book is about trauma and what it does to

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Speaker 2: families and communities. We're shouting about injuries and deaths, but

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Speaker 2: the other side is just playing by a totally different

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Speaker 2: playbook that we are not responding to whatsoever, which is

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Speaker 2: a playbook about power and authority and judges. And over

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Speaker 2: the course of my book, people on my side kept saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, now, by now eighty five percent of people

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Speaker 2: want background checks. The support is great. But while we

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Speaker 2: were doing that, the other side was overturning public carry

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Speaker 2: gun laws in thirty nine states, and we surpassed five

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Speaker 2: hundred million civilian owned guns in this country, and the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court overturned even New York's public carry gun laws.

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Speaker 2: And so there's a real disconnect between one side, which

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Speaker 2: is arguing for health and morality, and I think this

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Speaker 2: is on the side of right. I mean, I'm very

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Speaker 2: clear about that, but the other side is playing by

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Speaker 2: a power game. And I just didn't feel like the

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Speaker 2: public health response was enough really to what we're facing.

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Speaker 2: I really think we need to change really the terms

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Speaker 2: of the debate and the structure and what we're advocating.

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Speaker 1: So is it then too, because I guess, to your point,

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Speaker 1: the public and I remember when there was like the

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Speaker 1: shift to the public health debate, and I was sitting

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Speaker 1: with other doctors several years ago talking about gun violence

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Speaker 1: and you know, and how they wanted to reframe it

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Speaker 1: and come from a place of heart in the same

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Speaker 1: way that we would look at you know, heart disease

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Speaker 1: and cancer rates, and you know, and and how they

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Speaker 1: affect different communities. To your point, though, when you're dealing

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Speaker 1: with a group with the Republican Party, with maga supremis

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Speaker 1: who feel that their guns are their power right and

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Speaker 1: they are absolute about it, and because of their absolutism,

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Speaker 1: we have an epidemic in this country. To you, is

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Speaker 1: it then that democrats and progressives shift to a place

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Speaker 1: of power? You know? Is it is it to be

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Speaker 1: like the Republicans but for the greater good? What what

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Speaker 1: is that without? You know, obviously we want people to

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Speaker 1: pick up your book, but what does that mean in

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Speaker 1: terms of moving from a place of heart to power?

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Speaker 1: In your in your mind.

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Speaker 2: Well, there are two levels of that, and I admit

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Speaker 2: in the book, and I'll admit right now that they

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Speaker 2: are in tension with each other. They're not the same.

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Speaker 2: But I think there are two ways we have to

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Speaker 2: think about that. One is that the problem that democrats

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Speaker 2: are facing is much bigger. Like cigarettes were a public

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Speaker 2: health problem. People were smoking a cigarette in restaurants, people

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Speaker 2: were getting secondhand smoke, and that led to a public

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Speaker 2: health intervention, which is, let's hold the cigarette makers accountable.

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Speaker 2: Let's show research that will convince people the second hand

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Speaker 2: smoke is a danger. Everybody has an aunt or an

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Speaker 2: uncle or a neighbor who has lung cancer, they're going

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Speaker 2: to understand that same thing. With seat belts, seat belts.

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Speaker 2: Faulty seat belts were killing people. Faulty cars were killing people.

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Speaker 2: Everybody drives. At one point, everybody knew someone who'd gotten

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Speaker 2: in a terrible car wreck, and we could hold the

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Speaker 2: car makers responsible. We applied that model to guns, really,

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Speaker 2: as I tell in the book, starting in the nineteen

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Speaker 2: nineties when that model mates, because at that time we thought, hey,

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Speaker 2: it's worked for all these other things, and it was

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Speaker 2: totally reasonable to think it was going to work against guns.

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Speaker 2: But the problem is what happened over the subsequent decades

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Speaker 2: was that first of all, the gun industry was shielded

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Speaker 2: from the kind of product liability lawsuits that would have

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Speaker 2: made a public health argument really have teeth, which so

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Speaker 2: it never really did that. But the other thing is

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Speaker 2: guns are just a really fundamentally different entity than our

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Speaker 2: cigarettes and cars. They tie into the racial history of

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Speaker 2: the United States, They tie into really deeply North South politics.

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Speaker 2: Somebody in the North can yell gun control now, and

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Speaker 2: somebody in the sALS will say you're oppressing my freedom

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Speaker 2: and liberty and all this kind of it just means

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Speaker 2: something really different. And so a public health model that

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Speaker 2: was coming from blue state America just didn't make any

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Speaker 2: conceptual sense. And I think over time those fissures get

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Speaker 2: to be much greater. So that's the bigger part of

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Speaker 2: the story, which is that that argument really was something

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Speaker 2: that the Nray understood and liberal America didn't, which is

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Speaker 2: that you know, they could use the public health argument

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Speaker 2: to sew resentment in the South like these people are

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Speaker 2: coming after in ways that played out, for example in

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Speaker 2: the pandemic, and it left us without adequate strategies for

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Speaker 2: the bigger issues that were happening. The bigger issues were

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Speaker 2: that basically the right and the South were using the

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Speaker 2: gun issue to overturn state legislatures, kick out centrists, take

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Speaker 2: over the judiciary, which it was huge, And so part

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Speaker 2: of the story is a health argument really was glossing

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Speaker 2: over what was happening, which was that Red State America

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Speaker 2: was sowing the seeds of authoritarianism using the gun issue.

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Speaker 2: And to me, that's kind of the main argument of

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Speaker 2: the book is that a health argument made it hard

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Speaker 2: for us to see what was really happening down here

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Speaker 2: in Red state America because health seemed like common sense

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Speaker 2: to us. But health was a really useful foil for

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Speaker 2: Red state America to do something that the health argument

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Speaker 2: was never going to give you an answer to, which

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Speaker 2: was take over the judiciary, takeover politics, and then use

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Speaker 2: that as a missile basically to then take over Blue

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Speaker 2: state America if you look at, for example, what happened

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Speaker 2: with the Supreme Court last year. So that's kind of

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Speaker 2: the meta argument of the book is that a health

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Speaker 2: argument we didn't see that, we didn't see what was

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Speaker 2: really happening, how that was being used in Red state America.

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Speaker 2: But then the second layer of the book is that

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Speaker 2: I do think there's an opportunity. Now the NRA is

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Speaker 2: kind of imploding on itself. People are really starting to wonder.

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Speaker 2: I mean, here in Tennessee, we've had so many horrible

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Speaker 2: mass shootings and people are wondering, like, where do I

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Speaker 2: go from here? And I think in red state in America,

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Speaker 2: there's a hunger to say, give me something that I

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Speaker 2: can use here and coming in and saying background checks

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Speaker 2: and red flag laws that shite don't fly down here.

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Speaker 2: I mean that is government intervention and government databases. And

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Speaker 2: so the other part of the book is I think

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Speaker 2: we need a new agenda that actually speaks to voters

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Speaker 2: who are going to be really important in the election,

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Speaker 2: coming up with a who are like kind of blue

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Speaker 2: and I mean, I'm sorry Red and purple state people

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Speaker 2: who want an agenda that speaks to their concerns. And

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Speaker 2: so ultimately, I also do offer a lot of practical

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Speaker 2: solutions in the book for how we can strategize ways

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Speaker 2: to change guns safety reform in ways that meets the

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Speaker 2: interests of gun owners. Basically, in other words, we're not

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Speaker 2: against gun owners. That was a mistake that The New

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Speaker 2: York Times made in the review of my book this morning.

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Speaker 2: We're not against gun owners, but gun reform doesn't speak

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Speaker 2: to their interests. If we're rushing in and saying we

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Speaker 2: need government regulation, you need to actually answer their concerns

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Speaker 2: in a much more structural way so that they can

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Speaker 2: materially see how that might be beneficial to them. So

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Speaker 2: those are the two threads. But yeah, those are the

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Speaker 2: two threads. But they're complicated.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, And it's helpful, and I appreciate the

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Speaker 1: way that you've laid it out. I have a couple

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Speaker 1: of follow up questions that I think may help people

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Speaker 1: get a little bit more granular in terms of what

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Speaker 1: it is that you're offering. So first, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you say that what Republicans were doing in Red States

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Speaker 1: was seating the ground of authoritarianism, right, and I'll you know,

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Speaker 1: echo that, and add, you know absolutism, that there is

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Speaker 1: no room right when when we're talking about authoritarian regimes,

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Speaker 1: where we're talking about absolutism, there is no room for compromise,

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Speaker 1: for conversation for anything other than what is being dictated to.

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Speaker 1: I wonder, however, because Jonathan, you and I have had conversations,

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Speaker 1: you know, over the years where we lament the way

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Speaker 1: that democrats message and I wonder if even us saying

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Speaker 1: authoritarianism is that too big of a concept and a

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Speaker 1: word for people to understand what it is that the

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Speaker 1: right had been doing while we were focused on changing

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Speaker 1: hearts and minds.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's a useful metaphor. COVID hit. Half the country assumed,

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Speaker 2: here's a virus that's going to kill us as humans.

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Speaker 2: We all are on the same side here. But Red

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Speaker 2: State America and Trump saw it as an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: play on the fears that have been fomenting really for

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Speaker 2: decades under the gun lobby, which is these blue state

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Speaker 2: people are telling you what to do. It's the government

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Speaker 2: kind of telling you what to do. And so we

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Speaker 2: assumed that a health message was universal. Everybody was going

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Speaker 2: to be on the same side about COVID. But the

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Speaker 2: other side said, look, they're rushing in with the government,

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Speaker 2: and the government is going to control your health. They're

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Speaker 2: going to take away your freedom and liberty, your kids

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Speaker 2: can't go to school, you're going to lose your job.

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Speaker 2: And that place to red state resentment and anxiety, which

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Speaker 2: is massively, massively mobilizing. It gets people to vote, It

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Speaker 2: gets people to push out centrists. Then when people get elected,

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Speaker 2: it gets them to put in judges who are going

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Speaker 2: to overturn, you know, like in Florida they put in

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Speaker 2: an attorney general who is now banning vaccines and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that. So it leads people, pushes people that anxiety

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Speaker 2: about liberals coming in to take away your freedom and liberty.

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Speaker 2: Now that sounds like a stereotype, but it sure is

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Speaker 2: a prevalent one. And what I show is that's been building.

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Speaker 2: It didn't just happen in the vaccines. It's been building

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Speaker 2: over thirty thirty years, really as part of the gun debate,

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Speaker 2: and so again and again and again, the red state

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Speaker 2: America would say, look, they're coming to take away your guns,

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Speaker 2: and that would red state people would go out and

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Speaker 2: droves to support people. And what the NRA and GOP

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Speaker 2: did with that power is that they then put in

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Speaker 2: place judges like one judge I write about was like

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Speaker 2: thirty five years old, he'd never tried a case in

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Speaker 2: his life in Mississippi. His only criteria was he was

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Speaker 2: a lifelong member of the NRA and he would vote

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Speaker 2: for gun rights anytime. And that this all the way

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Speaker 2: up to the Supreme Court and so they had a

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Speaker 2: model of using what felt for them like liberal overreach

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Speaker 2: to really sow the seeds of power. And that power

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Speaker 2: was something that a health model was never going to refute, right,

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Speaker 2: because they all of a sudden, there are all these lifetime

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Speaker 2: judges who are supporting even the most seemingly ridiculous you know,

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Speaker 2: guns on campus, guns on park in parks. And so

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Speaker 2: the gun debate really created a kind of foundation of

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Speaker 2: power that really pushed out any reasonable people. And again,

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Speaker 2: and the health argument, I believe in health, I believe

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Speaker 2: in gun laws, but I don't think it's a counter

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Speaker 2: to what we were seeing in the South, which is

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Speaker 2: guns became a vehicle for really structural institutional power, and

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Speaker 2: every time we would rush in and say we need

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Speaker 2: more government databases and stuff like that, they would just

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Speaker 2: use it to gain more power. And that was something

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Speaker 2: that was never part of our calculus and still isn't

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Speaker 2: in a way.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan talk to us about you know, the story that

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Speaker 1: you lift up in the book is one that is

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Speaker 1: based largely in race, right and racism. And I think

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Speaker 1: that oftentimes when we're having conversations, not you and I,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like the bigger we are having conversations we

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Speaker 1: discount how race and racism plays into and is baked

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Speaker 1: into the policies that are being offered. So can you

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Speaker 1: talk to us about how in your meta you know,

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Speaker 1: layered plan, how you how you understand racism and race

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Speaker 1: being at play.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's at the core a story about race.

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Speaker 2: A naked white man travels from Illinois where he really

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Speaker 2: shouldn't have had guns. You know, this guy had been

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Speaker 2: stopped by the cops a bunch of times. He'd gone

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Speaker 2: to the White House and tried to jump the fence

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Speaker 2: at the White House. He gets arrested, given over to

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Speaker 2: the FBI. Is the FBFL. The FBI says he shouldn't

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Speaker 2: have guns, and so part of the story is that

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Speaker 2: if anybody else about a white man yanked this wankie,

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Speaker 2: you know, they would have been dead or in jail.

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Speaker 2: And so part of the story is about the privilege

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Speaker 2: of the white male gun owner. This guy kept getting

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Speaker 2: his guns back. I mean, it's just unbelievable, Like he

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Speaker 2: kept getting his guns back. The cops gave him his

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Speaker 2: guns back, his dad gave him his guns back. Even

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Speaker 2: after the Yeah, he got his guns back. So part

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Speaker 2: of it was about the stereotype of the white male

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Speaker 2: gun owner walking around in the world being seen as

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Speaker 2: a trope of freedom and protector and all this stuff

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Speaker 2: in ways that other people just do not get that, right.

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Speaker 2: I said, like, this would be a two page book

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Speaker 2: if it was a book about a black man. A

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Speaker 2: black man pulled this for five seconds and he's dead,

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Speaker 2: and that you know, that's the end of the story.

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Speaker 2: And so I write about that a lot. So part

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Speaker 2: of the story is about the body of the pre

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Speaker 2: shooting white male gun owner. But then you know, something

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Speaker 2: really important happens, which is he gets his guns confiscated,

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Speaker 2: they give the guns to his dad, his dad gives

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Speaker 2: him the guns back, and then he drives to Tennessee.

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Speaker 2: Why does he drive to Tennessee. It's because in Illinois

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Speaker 2: he can't have his guns legally, but in Tennessee he's

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Speaker 2: a legal white man with a gun. There's no gun

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Speaker 2: laws in Tennessee in a way, And so part of

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Speaker 2: the story was the allure of his freedom, his privilege,

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Speaker 2: his esteem, like Tennessee mirrored his version of himself as

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Speaker 2: like being a proud white male gun owner. So part

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Speaker 2: of it was about how when he's in Tennessee, Tennessee

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Speaker 2: mirrors his values because it reinforces his privilege as is,

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Speaker 2: you know, embedded in his body and his guns. And

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Speaker 2: then he becomes a killer. And after the shooting, the

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Speaker 2: state apparatus mobilizes to in a way support the rights

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Speaker 2: of men like him the whole There's a gubernatorial election

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Speaker 2: I write about in the book a few months after

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Speaker 2: the shooting, and overwhelmingly they vote in a governor, Governor Lee,

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Speaker 2: whose platform was we're going to have no gun laws.

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Speaker 2: And so in a way, the apparatus saw the shooter

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Speaker 2: as a reflection of their values in ways that made

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Speaker 2: it just much easier for this shooting to happen again.

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Speaker 2: And so the third part of how race functions is

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Speaker 2: at this structural level where it's really just the institutions

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Speaker 2: reward even the most extreme, pornographic, pathological instances of when

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Speaker 2: it's so clear that these white bodies and white guns

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Speaker 2: are killing black bodies, which is really the story, we

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Speaker 2: build these institutions that assure that this is going to

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Speaker 2: happen again. It's an institutional story.

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Speaker 1: And I just you know, and I will say and

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Speaker 1: thank you because the way that you laid that out

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Speaker 1: was just you know, breathtaking, because I have to tell

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Speaker 1: you that there for me when I listen, when I read,

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Speaker 1: you know, and hear these stories, this is America fundamentally,

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Speaker 1: through and through right, Like this is that the story

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Speaker 1: that you reference? You know what you're writing. This is

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Speaker 1: the story of America. It is about murtyring, subjugating, oppressing

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Speaker 1: black bodies, like that is it? That is the birth

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Speaker 1: of this nation. It will be the death of this nation.

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Speaker 1: And I, you know, I and I honestly I have

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Speaker 1: to say that I have in this moment just like

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Speaker 1: such clarity around the fact that, like, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that anything will ever change. I really don't. Like I

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Speaker 1: think that there will always be I think that white

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Speaker 1: men will always win in terms of this debate, because

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Speaker 1: fundamentally it goes back to the founding of this country,

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Speaker 1: about their toxic masculinity, about domination, about their exceptionalism, and

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Speaker 1: that in that entire fantasy, psychotic fantasy, is tied up

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Speaker 1: into gun ownership. And so you know, it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: how many white kindergarten children are murdered, it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: how many. You know, they're just the cost of freedom.

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Speaker 1: And if that is your and now assists, then I

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Speaker 1: never see you being able to be moved.

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Speaker 2: You know, as I was saying before, The New York

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Speaker 2: Times this morning called the book mild, and I'm really

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Speaker 2: perplexed by this because to call it mild, you'd have

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Speaker 2: to totally miss the race critique. Or maybe this is

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Speaker 2: mild for some people. But what I write is that

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Speaker 2: black Americans are also sold the false promise that if

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Speaker 2: they two buy guns, they're going to have equality with

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Speaker 2: white people under the Second Amendment. And I really, really

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Speaker 2: really take that down in the book to show that

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Speaker 2: black Americans with guns is used as an anxiety to

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Speaker 2: trope to sell more guns to white people. And it's

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Speaker 2: really clear even when even when the shooting makes so

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Speaker 2: clear where this is all taking us. And so we

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Speaker 2: do see a lot of Black Americans buying guns, and

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Speaker 2: that's part of why I argue that the health paradigm

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Speaker 2: is losing. The biggest, most expansive body of gun owners

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Speaker 2: now are black women actually, and also liberals, progressives, and

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Speaker 2: Black Americans, who for so long stood as like the

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Speaker 2: hallmark not just of Democrats but of gun reform. They

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Speaker 2: were like the people who always voted for gun reform

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Speaker 2: because in the nineties. They had seen what guns did

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Speaker 2: to their communities, but when so many white people started

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Speaker 2: getting guns, they started saying, well, we better get guns

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Speaker 2: as well. But this was I mean, the NRA is

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Speaker 2: an arms dealer. They're trying to arm both sides. And

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Speaker 2: so what I show is the false promise is what

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Speaker 2: we're selling to Black Americans is not the promise of

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Speaker 2: equality if you get guns. Also, it's a way of

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Speaker 2: stimulating more and better gun sales among white Americans. And

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Speaker 2: to me, it's just such a vicious cycle because the

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Speaker 2: outcomes are exactly what this shooting shows and reveals and

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Speaker 2: reflects and portends, which is hierarchy and death. And so

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Speaker 2: in a way, I'll just say that ultimately, what I

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Speaker 2: say is that the naked white body of the shooter,

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Speaker 2: as you say, is a reflection of American choices and

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Speaker 2: values in addition to a pathology of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just you know, I would just add that, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that black Americans believe that gun ownership

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Speaker 1: is akin to equity. I think that black Americans are

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Speaker 1: very aware that we will never fully ever be seen

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Speaker 1: as equal in this country, and that you're going to

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Speaker 1: kill us if we're unarmed, you're going to kill us.

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Speaker 1: If we're armed. It doesn't really fucking matter. So at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, if I can do anything,

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Speaker 1: any small thing, to be able to protect my family.

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Speaker 1: Was the thoughts of the Black Panthers and the reason

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Speaker 1: why the Black Panthers were armed and talked about the

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Speaker 1: Second Amendment and their right to be full citizens of

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Speaker 1: this country. And it's just like, it doesn't matter whether

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Speaker 1: or not you are peaceful or you are violent. The

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Speaker 1: system of white supremacy that this country is built on

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Speaker 1: is going to kill you, right, And that to me,

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Speaker 1: it's like it's not it's not the oh, well, if

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Speaker 1: I get this, then they will see me as a citizen.

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Speaker 1: It's just like it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to fall back on a public health

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Speaker 2: throw faith and after all this and I'll say that,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's also forty years of research that shows

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Speaker 2: that sixty five percent of gun death is gun suicide

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Speaker 2: and partner violence and accidental shooting. So when you accept

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Speaker 2: that logic, you're also inviting all these other risk factors.

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Speaker 2: It really becomes like secondhand smoke. You're inviting all this

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Speaker 2: risk into your house. So there's no good outcome about

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Speaker 2: more armament. I really don't think for anybody in a way.

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Speaker 2: And but I of course I agree with you. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the whole book is about my agreeing with that point,

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Speaker 2: which is just that there's this false promise that's always changed.

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Speaker 2: But think about that cycle, right, the false promise of

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Speaker 2: I might as well arm myself because the societies against

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Speaker 2: me or the cops aren't going to protect me. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of very direct marketing to black people

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Speaker 2: after the floor murder, But then the cycle becomes then

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Speaker 2: to white people, hey, you better arm yourself because look

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Speaker 2: who else is getting guns? And here's our latest gun

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Speaker 2: which shoots even more bullets, even more faster, and stuff

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00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: like that. And so in a way, it just becomes

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00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: this cycle, which which I have to say, just historical

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00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: precedent for countries that go down that path. It just

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00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: that does not end well. And so in a way,

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Speaker 2: you know, I have a piece in the Huffington Post

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00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: this morning that I'm not being a total fatalist. I

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00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: do think there's a moment now where we can change this.

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00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: I think the implications of the twenty four election are huge, huge.

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00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: If if we put more nra Supreme Court judges, we're done.

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00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: And so you know, voting for Biden here with this,

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00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: if you're voting on this issue, that the choice is

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00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: really clear. So I'm not saying everybody's the same, but

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00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 2: i will say I want people to recognize how we

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00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 2: got here, so that it just, you know, it just

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00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: feels like there's so much confusion now about how we

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00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: got here, and I want to kind of open people's

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00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: eyes a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan, I tell you you are a gift. You're a

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00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: gift to our weekly woke af commentary and conversation, and

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00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: your writing and your thoughtfulness and your hopefulness is a

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00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: gift to this movement. So we as always really appreciate

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00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: you and your time. Folks. The book is what we've

456
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: become and it is out now, so you should get it.

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00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: And if you are in the New York area, come

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00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: and see us at green Light Bookstore in Brooklyn on

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00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: February fifth, where Jonathan will be signing books, reading from

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00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: his books, and him and I will be in conversation.

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00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: Super excited about that. That is it for me today,

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00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: dear friends on woke AF as always power to the

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00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: people and to all the people. Power get woke and

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00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: stay woke as fuck.