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Speaker 1: Pushkin, soaring, lush, and steeped in soul. Anastasia has a

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Speaker 1: voice that feels distant and intimate all at once. She

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Speaker 1: was scouted in high school for a career in pop music,

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Speaker 1: but after some strange dealings, set out down the road

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Speaker 1: of self discovery. What she uncovered about herself and her

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Speaker 1: artistry you can hear on her serene new album Tether,

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Speaker 1: easily one of my favorites this year. The album was

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Speaker 1: recorded live in studio and is stripped to the bone,

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Speaker 1: allowing her voice in poetry to shine through, unencumbered by

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Speaker 1: any clumsy production. I spoke to Anastasia about her journey

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Speaker 1: through music to this album, which includes earning a four

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Speaker 1: year degree, opening for Lenny Kravitz and co starring and

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Speaker 1: Kendrick Lamar's Luther music video. This is broken record, real musicians,

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Speaker 1: real conversations. Mhmm. Before getting into the conversation, here's Anastasia

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Speaker 1: performing her song Satisfy Me.

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Speaker 2: Ah through the craven that you won't have they a

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Speaker 2: very good time.

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Speaker 3: I wonder where you so you didn't have.

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Speaker 4: The answers all alone?

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Speaker 3: And you wonder treads so lightly over mountains.

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Speaker 2: And rivers and valleys, dolls.

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Speaker 3: And you under.

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Speaker 5: I gets sorry.

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Speaker 3: As of history is in no way repeeding.

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Speaker 6: So.

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Speaker 5: Satisfied, me.

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Speaker 3: Satisfying. How called you all a bad day?

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Speaker 4: I think you chose realized kind of game we have

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Speaker 4: to play. How am always looking for the upside?

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Speaker 3: Trying to stay off line? When for the world to breathe?

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Speaker 4: And you wonder why see sky? It's because of money

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Speaker 4: outside and I'm looking, and you wonder I dream so freely.

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Speaker 4: It's because I'm never ever really all that's sash fine.

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Speaker 5: Satisfied, silence, FI satisfied.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, you could say anything. Lyrics could mean anything,

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Speaker 1: you know. Oh my god? When did you figure out

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Speaker 1: you had that voice? This voice, the voice that you have,

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Speaker 1: it's like the most gorgeous voice.

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Speaker 6: Well, I mean it developed over years, but the first

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Speaker 6: time I realized I could sing somewhat was when I

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Speaker 6: was fourteen and I did a school talent show and

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Speaker 6: it was mostly everybody else's reaction. I was like, well

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Speaker 6: what And my voice has dropped much since then, So

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Speaker 6: I think that was the first time I realized I

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Speaker 6: had a tool that I could wield or begin to home.

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Speaker 1: Wow. So before the talent show at fourteen, were you

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Speaker 1: interested in singing. Did you sing a lot or no?

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 6: My parents aren't musicians, and they're both in creative field.

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Speaker 6: They're they're in fashion. And I didn't really have any

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Speaker 6: particular interest in singing or music or anything. And the

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Speaker 6: way that I thought, oh, maybe, well I wonder if

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Speaker 6: I can sing is actually kind of messed up. I

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Speaker 6: went to this school that was predominantly white, and a

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Speaker 6: lot of the kids would bully me because probably was

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Speaker 6: the first black person that they had ever seen, and

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Speaker 6: one of the lung the many stereotypes that were shouted

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Speaker 6: at me. They were like, they would ask me to sing,

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Speaker 6: like at lunch or after school, and they call me

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Speaker 6: a jukebox, and they like, sing us a song, jukebox,

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Speaker 6: sing us a song. And of course I would never

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Speaker 6: sing for them, because you know, I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 6: a pantomime. And but for some reason, like became a

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Speaker 6: warm in my brain and I went home and I

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Speaker 6: I was like, let me just try and sing something.

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Speaker 6: So I think I first song I tried to sing

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Speaker 6: was Whitney Houston's I Want to Dance with Somebody of

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Speaker 6: the songs.

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Speaker 1: Ever, I love that song so much, But that's wild

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Speaker 1: that that was the first song you chose, I'll say

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Speaker 1: that you couldn't have picked the worst starting point. Though

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Speaker 1: it's all worked out.

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Speaker 6: It was very hard to sing and not in my

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Speaker 6: my range at all. Even at that point. It was

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Speaker 6: too high for me, and I think I I learned

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Speaker 6: it fully, but I was like, this doesn't feel quite right.

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Speaker 6: So the song I learned after that was Valerie Amy

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Speaker 6: white House's version, and that's the one I performed at

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Speaker 6: the talent show and you know, everybody their socks that

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Speaker 6: day because they're like, oh wait, she actually actually you

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Speaker 6: actually can't sing. And yeah, that's how I fell into that.

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Speaker 6: And then my music teachers at school kind of took

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Speaker 6: me under their wing and taught me vocal jazz. I

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Speaker 6: was a musical theater. It was just wherever I could

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Speaker 6: get some sort of music education through my school, I

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Speaker 6: did because there wasn't like money for extracurricular and stuff,

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Speaker 6: so I just learned that way for many years.

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Speaker 1: What was your parents' reaction to you, to my voice,

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Speaker 1: to your voice?

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Speaker 6: I think they were surprised. I can't remember. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 6: my dad, when I first started writing songs, I think

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Speaker 6: I played one for him and his reaction was eh,

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Speaker 6: you're pretty good. You should write twelve more. And I

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Speaker 6: was like, twelve, Like I just for one and it

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Speaker 6: felt like the hardest thing I've ever done. He's like, yeah,

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Speaker 6: but if you're serious about it, you should write twelve more.

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Speaker 6: And if you'd write twelve then I'll take you seriously.

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Speaker 6: Until then, I'm just going to assume this is a hobby.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 6: And so that was his reaction. My mom was a

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Speaker 6: lot more generally supportive, you know, showing up to any

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Speaker 6: performance that I had and always always being very proud

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Speaker 6: of me and smiling from the sidelines. But it wasn't

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Speaker 6: like they're not showbiz parents. They're not the type of

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Speaker 6: parents that like, just because I was good at something,

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Speaker 6: I was now suddenly like we're going to try and

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Speaker 6: you know, make a buck off this kid kind of energy.

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Speaker 6: So it was really left up to me if I

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Speaker 6: wanted to pursue that. They're like, oh, that's cool. You

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Speaker 6: have that gift that they left me to figure out

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Speaker 6: what to do with it.

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Speaker 1: Was that a typical response from your dad? Like that

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Speaker 1: kind of is that how he sort of oriented?

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Speaker 6: Ye, He's like a very serious artist. So he was like,

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Speaker 6: if any of my kids are going to be artists.

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Speaker 6: I need them to understand what that means, like what

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Speaker 6: that role in society and in the world is. What

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Speaker 6: it is to be an artist. It's not like a

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Speaker 6: it's not a light thing, it's not a casual thing.

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Speaker 6: It actually comes with a lot of responsibility to observe

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Speaker 6: and distill the world, and then also honing your craft

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Speaker 6: and your ability to execute an idea from thought to fruition.

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Speaker 6: It's like it's something that I was taught at a

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Speaker 6: young age and taught to take very seriously. So I

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Speaker 6: think it translated into my music to all my other mediums,

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Speaker 6: like that dedication to process and to craft. Yeah, just

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Speaker 6: so I can feel like I'm doing my job as

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Speaker 6: a artist.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when you when you brought that

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Speaker 1: song to your parents?

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Speaker 6: It was fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen, So what do you do at fifteen? And says, right,

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Speaker 1: did you write twelve more? Did you?

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 6: I didn't write twelve more. I think I got to

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Speaker 6: like seven, but none of them were as good as

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Speaker 6: the first one. So I got discouraged. And then I

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Speaker 6: was doing covers with my friends and like a you know,

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Speaker 6: high school band kind of thing. We were singing a

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Speaker 6: lot of Bill Withers and read out Chili Peppers and

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Speaker 6: Pink Floyd and shit, and I just went into study mode.

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Speaker 6: I was like, actually, I don't know enough about writing

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Speaker 6: songs to be writing songs yet. That's what I realized.

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Speaker 1: Did you have an ideal at that time when you're

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Speaker 1: like fifteen sixteen of like what a songwriter was or

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Speaker 1: what a song a good song was?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean my reference point was Bill Withers and

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Speaker 6: Nina Simone. Those are my two favorite songwriters at that chapter.

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Speaker 6: And so yeah, the bar was definitely said high.

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Speaker 1: It's a high bar, but a good bar. That's a

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Speaker 1: good bar. Yeah, both, and both really different because Bill

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Speaker 1: is so Bill Withers was so matter of fact indirect,

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Speaker 1: there was no and it wasn't about he had I mean,

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Speaker 1: he'd every once in a while like have a vocal

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Speaker 1: run that'd be like stunning, but he was even his

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Speaker 1: delivery was pretty just matter of fact, folky. He didn't

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Speaker 1: want a lot of wisdom in it, you know. And

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Speaker 1: Nina could just you know, great songs, great pick picked

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Speaker 1: great songs, but then also could similarly maybe to you

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Speaker 1: like she could also just sing nonsense and you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be even raptured, you know, it's.

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Speaker 6: Like, yeah, yeah, she had this like yeah, like you

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Speaker 6: put you put it very plainly. It's like Nina had

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Speaker 6: this magnetism and it was for me the way that

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Speaker 6: she performed the songs, that's what I was learning from her. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: because yes, a lot of the songs were picked as

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Speaker 6: she wasn't writing them, and her the way that her

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Speaker 6: voice made those songs come alive in a way that

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Speaker 6: when other artists sang them it just wasn't the same. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I learned from her theatrics in that sense of the

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Speaker 6: importance of dynamics and tone and the presence that you

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Speaker 6: bring to a word or to a form. Yeah, the

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Speaker 6: emotion that you bring to it and what that actually

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Speaker 6: is when you break that down technically. And then with Bill,

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Speaker 6: where there's yeah, exactly, a very matter of fact storytelling,

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Speaker 6: like Okay, this is the history. Yeah, and there's not

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Speaker 6: a lot that gets in the way of hearing the story,

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Speaker 6: which I think is really important for songwriting. It's like

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Speaker 6: balancing the poetic language with here's what happened, Here's what

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Speaker 6: I want to tell you, and then delivering it in

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Speaker 6: a way where people feel your words as well as

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Speaker 6: hearing them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think of yourself in any way it's theatrical?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, gently so.

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Speaker 1: Gently so in life or only in song.

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Speaker 6: I think I live cinematically, Yeah, more cinema than the theater.

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Speaker 6: Theater I associate with like a dimension. It's like there's

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Speaker 6: so many there's planes, where a cinema is more five D.

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Speaker 6: It's an experience, or a theater. It's like you are

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Speaker 6: viewing something and there's a front stage, there's a backstage.

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Speaker 6: There's like literally layers, whereas life to me feels more

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Speaker 6: like a movie with infinite camera setups and and plot

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Speaker 6: lines and options.

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Speaker 1: It's the magic. It's like, it's the magic you get

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Speaker 1: from a movie. That's what you feel in life.

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Speaker 6: That's what I feel in life. But that's what I's

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Speaker 6: what I pursue in life. I think it helps me,

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Speaker 6: Like as a songwriter, if you're you live in that

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Speaker 6: mentality of like your life is an unfolding story, then

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Speaker 6: you're constantly processing it in that way, it makes it

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Speaker 6: a lot easier to to condense. Or when you're hearing

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Speaker 6: somebody else's story, or you're you're witnessing somebody else goes

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Speaker 6: through something and you you immediately put it in that framework.

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Speaker 6: But then that requires, yeah, a certain propensity for drama,

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Speaker 6: not in the like toxic sense, but in the sense that,

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Speaker 6: like the contrasts that are naturally there in life are

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Speaker 6: a lot to chew on, and if you open your

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Speaker 6: heart to like feeling all of it, it is quite intense.

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Speaker 6: It's quite intense, and up and down mountains valleys. It's

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Speaker 6: it is theatrical without even adding much to it or

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Speaker 6: doing much to make it so right.

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about that a lot myself in general,

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Speaker 1: Like the drama is a better way. I was thinking

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Speaker 1: of theatrics myself, but drama is a better way I

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Speaker 1: think of explaining it. You hit on something more interesting.

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Speaker 1: But Nina, so Nina as this person who could be

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Speaker 1: simultaneously dramatic or theatrical but also like impossibly cool at

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Speaker 1: the same time. It's a really hard balance, and I

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Speaker 1: think I worry even for myself, but in general that

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Speaker 1: in the quest to be cool, we've lost what it

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Speaker 1: is to be dramatic and the actual and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of fun in that. You know, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of music and music especially when you lose that, there's

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Speaker 1: an element missing, and it is that formative elopment, the

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Speaker 1: way you say something versus just saying something, And there's

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Speaker 1: so much of that in you're saying, which I think

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Speaker 1: is why, like your album is so deeply resonant, you know,

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Speaker 1: within not to put you on the spot, but it

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Speaker 1: just came out and I feel like no one's had

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Speaker 1: a bad word to say it, that's heard it, you know, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 6: I mean I'd be interested to hear if they found one,

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Speaker 6: because so yeah, it's it's it was crafted with so

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Speaker 6: much consideration, so many, so many viewpoints, over so much time.

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Speaker 6: Not that I was making it in the desire to

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Speaker 6: please anyone, but my attempt was to make something that

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Speaker 6: felt so innately human that everybody could find themselves in it.

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Speaker 6: Joni Mitchell said once that if you if you listen

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Speaker 6: to a song and you see my face, and I failed,

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Speaker 6: but if you listen to a song and you feel

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Speaker 6: you see yourself, then I've done my job. And so

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Speaker 6: it's like that process of trying to remove my a

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Speaker 6: censortain level of my ego from the music. I think

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Speaker 6: it's what has led to the people resonating it with

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Speaker 6: it in this way, because it's not it's when they're

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Speaker 6: listening to it, they're hearing their own experience, in their

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Speaker 6: own story.

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Speaker 1: How do you get there? How do you get to

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Speaker 1: the point where you can create something that's personal but

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Speaker 1: your ego isn't in it?

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Speaker 6: Oh, goes. I think back to that need with that

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Speaker 6: coolness that you were talking about in need to add

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Speaker 6: It's like when you do dive into the extreme extremities

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Speaker 6: of life, it also brings about a certain level of objectivity.

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Speaker 6: It's like it's like looking at a roaring river and

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Speaker 6: deciding to jump in that you have this agency and

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Speaker 6: you can decide to be outside of the river watching it,

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Speaker 6: or you can decide to be in the river, and

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Speaker 6: when you have the strength to do both, and you've

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Speaker 6: honed that strength over time to do both and not

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Speaker 6: get overwhelmed by being in the river and going with

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Speaker 6: the current and not being able to swim and just

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Speaker 6: being like, well, I trust this, I'm going and then

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Speaker 6: knowing when it's time to step out, I'm too exhausted.

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Speaker 6: I can't handle this. I have to sit back and

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Speaker 6: watch and observe the coolness. That's the calm, that's the objectivity,

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Speaker 6: that's the be here now of it all, Like I'm present.

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Speaker 6: Everything in this moment right now is fine. And with songwriting,

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Speaker 6: it's like there's so many different phases. And that's why

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Speaker 6: time is such an important ingredient in my work is

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Speaker 6: because the thing happens, life happens. You experience the heartbreak,

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Speaker 6: you experience, the trauma, you experience, the joy, the ecstasy,

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Speaker 6: and it might in that moment it inspires you. But

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Speaker 6: for me, at least, it isn'tn til months later that

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Speaker 6: I can distill it into language or into a melody,

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Speaker 6: into a song, and so then it comes out in

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Speaker 6: one of my You know, when I'm sitting on my

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Speaker 6: own practicing or writing. Usually while I'm practicing is when

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Speaker 6: the songs come and it comes through or recorded or

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Speaker 6: track in some way to reference it again, and then

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Speaker 6: I don't really touch it for a minute, and then

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Speaker 6: I come back to it and I'm like, Okay, what

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Speaker 6: was I saying there? And is what I'm saying fair?

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Speaker 6: Is it fair to the people involved? Have I considered

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Speaker 6: all sides? What's the lesson that I learned here? Like

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Speaker 6: I try and look at each experience, like how do

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Speaker 6: I take myself out of this? And if I take

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Speaker 6: myself out of this is there still a story here?

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Speaker 6: And that's what I try to do with all these records,

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Speaker 6: Like with Be Kind, like that was a if you

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Speaker 6: wanted to break down the song, it's the front half

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Speaker 6: is completely my life. It's little vignettes of my life

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Speaker 6: that were going on at that time. Super niche, super specific.

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Speaker 6: Looking at a pile of CDs under a tree. It's trash,

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Speaker 6: but there's something beautiful about the trash, like dancing for

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Speaker 6: three days straight to Moroccan music in July and New York,

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Speaker 6: like you know, sleeping on a couch and wishing that

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Speaker 6: I had this California King bed I didn't have to

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Speaker 6: worry about Bill, Like. There are all these little moments,

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Speaker 6: and I give you guys so much of my life

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Speaker 6: and my experience. But in those you see that time

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Speaker 6: that you struggle, You see that time that you like

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Speaker 6: let go and had fun. You see that time that

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Speaker 6: that you found the mundane so beautiful that it almost

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Speaker 6: made you cry. Because my experiences aren't unique to me.

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Speaker 6: They're just refractions of our group experience. And then I

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Speaker 6: zoom out and I say, and I deliver this mantra

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Speaker 6: that has absolutely nothing to do with me, which is

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Speaker 6: something that we've all been taught on some level, which

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Speaker 6: is like, I won't do unto you as you as

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Speaker 6: I don't want done unto me right, I want to

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Speaker 6: treat you with kindness because I want to receive kindness.

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Speaker 6: And I won't be heartless if you won't be heartless.

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Speaker 6: I won't be callous if you won't be callous. That

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Speaker 6: message is not it is not mine even it's it's

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Speaker 6: it's it's when I've learned growing up in church. It's

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Speaker 6: when I learned from multiple mentors and teachers of my life.

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Speaker 6: It's like something that I returned to through all the

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Speaker 6: noise of the front half of the song, all of

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Speaker 6: these niche experiences. It's like the common thread through it

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Speaker 6: is this human thing of Wait, actually, we're all here

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Speaker 6: together now to love and to care for each other,

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Speaker 6: and we just need to clear the noise and sit

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Speaker 6: and listen to it. There's no ego in that move,

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Speaker 6: but in that song, I kind of like dip in

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Speaker 6: through the ego and out the other side.

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Speaker 1: That's like your way in is thing ego. We'll be

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Speaker 1: back with more from Anastasia after the break be kind.

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Speaker 1: When you wrote the song, how done was it or

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Speaker 1: how much of that work to strip some of your

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Speaker 1: ego out of it. Did you have to do since

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Speaker 1: you brought that up as an example.

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Speaker 6: You know, not much, because I was quite humbled at

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Speaker 6: that point by my life experiences. I had just moved

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Speaker 6: back to California after trying to live in New York

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Speaker 6: for a few years, and New York just destroyed me mentally,

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Speaker 6: destroyed my health, Like I was not good. Oh, I

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Speaker 6: was not well, and I'd run back to California with

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Speaker 6: my tail between my legs. And yeah, I was sitting

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Speaker 6: in the quiet of valley home and the sun coming

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Speaker 6: through the window and gentle breeze of spring, and like

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Speaker 6: just such a sharp contrast to where I was the

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Speaker 6: noise and the bustle and the grit and the smog

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Speaker 6: and the uh and I don't know, the song just

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Speaker 6: came out. It came out, and the front half came

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Speaker 6: out because I was just like trying to purge that experience.

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Speaker 6: And then and then I literally said to myself, I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 6: stop complaining, and then the second half came out.

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Speaker 1: But the city in the same sitting.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I usually write my songs in one sitting two

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Speaker 6: at max, but not in any large swath of time

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Speaker 6: between the two, because it's like when it's coming through,

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Speaker 6: you have to catch it to kind of like catching fish.

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Speaker 6: They'res slippery and they might not come round again, so

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Speaker 6: you gotta when it comes through.

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Speaker 1: What is practice look like for you said, a lot

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Speaker 1: of your writing comes from just out of practicing. What

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Speaker 1: is when do you practice? And what does that look

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Speaker 1: like for you?

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Speaker 6: You know, practice is a funny thing for a musician

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Speaker 6: who's become professional musician because then he's like, you actually

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Speaker 6: don't even time to practice anymore, which is what even

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Speaker 6: got you there in the first place, is all the practice.

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Speaker 6: So now I have to like carve out time, and

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Speaker 6: I haven't been so good at it, which is why

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Speaker 6: I haven't been writing that much. But what it just

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Speaker 6: looks like is practice. It's like just exploring the neck

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Speaker 6: of the guitar, seeing different finding different chords, finding different tunings,

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Speaker 6: finding different voicings, different melody lines. And then for me,

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Speaker 6: when I find a new melody line or I find

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Speaker 6: a new chord progression that almost directly inspires language. It's

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Speaker 6: like almost like a synesthesia, but with words like hearing

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Speaker 6: a sound and it reminds me of like a memory

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Speaker 6: or a moment or a color, and then I just

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Speaker 6: follow that I start describing it, and then it's like

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Speaker 6: then it's just like pulling the thread.

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Speaker 1: Is there any songs on the album that you found

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Speaker 1: the melody on the guitar before you found the words,

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Speaker 1: before you found your voice around it.

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Speaker 6: Well, it all happens at once. I write all my

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Speaker 6: songs on the guitar by myself in my room. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: all of the songs were already written before I went

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Speaker 6: into record the album, and then I just taught everybody

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Speaker 6: the songs and we worked on the arrangement and recorded

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Speaker 6: their band arrangement. But every single song that I write

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Speaker 6: or put out is written in that way where it's

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Speaker 6: me in this moment of practice with my guitar and

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Speaker 6: they dance together the melody and my hands and the

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Speaker 6: words and the lyrics. It's not linear the process, and

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Speaker 6: sometimes it'll be like holes that need to be filled

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Speaker 6: where I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to say,

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Speaker 6: Like Villain was one of those. Like when Villain came through,

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Speaker 6: I wasn't just in a very angry place, and that

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Speaker 6: one it came the lyrics never changed. It came through

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Speaker 6: like that done, but when I revisited it, I was like, Okay, wait,

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Speaker 6: this isn't actually about my anger. Actually this is about

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Speaker 6: something else. And then over time the meaning of the

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Speaker 6: song evolved and that changed how I sung it wow,

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Speaker 6: and how I performed it, because at first, it's like

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Speaker 6: this angry song of like, just I don't want anything

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Speaker 6: that you left. It's kind of it's kind of like,

401
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Speaker 6: you know, all your stuff is in the closet. Taken

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Speaker 6: and go was the energy of when I wrote the song,

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Speaker 6: But by the time I tracked it over a year later,

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Speaker 6: it was like, oh, actually, the song is about taking

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Speaker 6: accountability for the shadow parts of yourself and the way

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Speaker 6: that you hurt others in the process of trying to

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Speaker 6: love them, and that there's a lot of forgiveness there

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Speaker 6: for yourself and for the other person, because it's not

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Speaker 6: that there was an effort, it's just that you didn't

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Speaker 6: have the tools right. And we like to craft all

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Speaker 6: these narratives about who did someone wrong and who's the

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Speaker 6: villain and who's the hero, and who's the victim and

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Speaker 6: who's the aggressor, and it's like, well, it's actually quite

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Speaker 6: most often very nuanced, and we exist in these polarities

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Speaker 6: and sometimes, like you, choosing to be the the victim

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Speaker 6: is a type of manipulation, and you know, vice versa.

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Speaker 6: And when you again you zoom out, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 6: if that actually freedom from this cycle is being okay

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Speaker 6: with having done harm and taking accountability of that. But

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Speaker 6: that is not where I started. When I wrote the song,

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Speaker 6: That is not where I was. I was fully in

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Speaker 6: petty zone, like you know, I just had nothing good

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Speaker 6: to say about this other person at that time. And

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Speaker 6: that's an example. I think of how the songs like

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Speaker 6: they come to me, but they teach me as I'm

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Speaker 6: living with them. Sometimes I don't even know what I'm

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Speaker 6: singing about, but the words are there, the song is there,

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Speaker 6: it's done, and the lesson I learned from it comes

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Speaker 6: much later.

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Speaker 1: Wow, the songs are teaching. The evolution of the song

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Speaker 1: is evolution of the thought process of the thing that

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Speaker 1: you're going through. Yeah, have you written a song? Maybe

433
00:27:05,276 --> 00:27:09,196
Speaker 1: not on this album because it's relatively new, But do

434
00:27:09,236 --> 00:27:13,476
Speaker 1: you have any songs that you've written that X amount

435
00:27:13,516 --> 00:27:16,236
Speaker 1: of years later or now that you you don't feel

436
00:27:16,236 --> 00:27:17,636
Speaker 1: so connected to or you don't.

437
00:27:17,556 --> 00:27:20,716
Speaker 6: You're like, h, that was yeah all the time, for

438
00:27:20,836 --> 00:27:23,876
Speaker 6: one that hasn't been sitting right with me has been power,

439
00:27:25,356 --> 00:27:27,796
Speaker 6: Which is funny because people want me to sing that

440
00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:32,676
Speaker 6: one all the time, and I think it's because it's it.

441
00:27:32,916 --> 00:27:36,836
Speaker 6: The song was at a point in my life where

442
00:27:36,836 --> 00:27:40,036
Speaker 6: I was playing the victim all the time, and to

443
00:27:40,076 --> 00:27:41,916
Speaker 6: be fair, there was a lot of shit going on

444
00:27:42,076 --> 00:27:45,956
Speaker 6: that was really unfair, and I was being exploited by

445
00:27:46,036 --> 00:27:49,756
Speaker 6: multiple industry factors and I didn't feel like I had

446
00:27:49,796 --> 00:27:54,116
Speaker 6: any power, and especially as a black woman, just like

447
00:27:54,236 --> 00:27:57,756
Speaker 6: seeing the way that I was being treated when and

448
00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:00,196
Speaker 6: then looking at my peers who are not black women,

449
00:28:00,356 --> 00:28:05,356
Speaker 6: and like, I don't see a difference in talent, So

450
00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:09,676
Speaker 6: what's going on here? And feeling powerless in that dynamic,

451
00:28:10,116 --> 00:28:12,796
Speaker 6: that's where I was writing that song from. But when

452
00:28:12,796 --> 00:28:15,156
Speaker 6: I sing it now, because I'm not in this place

453
00:28:15,236 --> 00:28:18,196
Speaker 6: of that type of victimization, self victimization. I'm in this

454
00:28:18,276 --> 00:28:22,436
Speaker 6: place of like what is for me is easeful, and

455
00:28:22,476 --> 00:28:23,996
Speaker 6: I don't need to fight for it. I don't need

456
00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:28,276
Speaker 6: to prove myself constantly, like I know who I am now,

457
00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:31,476
Speaker 6: And I wrote that song when I was like twenty

458
00:28:31,796 --> 00:28:35,196
Speaker 6: years old. I'm thirty now, So it's just there's been

459
00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:39,556
Speaker 6: so much time since that thought, and now when I

460
00:28:39,836 --> 00:28:41,876
Speaker 6: go to sing it, I'm like, I'm just like, you're

461
00:28:41,916 --> 00:28:44,596
Speaker 6: so silly, you're supposedly for thinking that. Yeah, and I

462
00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:47,996
Speaker 6: don't even want to finish the song, So it's like

463
00:28:48,436 --> 00:28:50,716
Speaker 6: I don't really relate to it anymore. But I understand

464
00:28:50,796 --> 00:28:53,236
Speaker 6: how for other people it's like they really need to

465
00:28:53,276 --> 00:28:55,596
Speaker 6: hear that, because everyone's been in that position where they

466
00:28:55,676 --> 00:28:58,556
Speaker 6: just feel like they cannot get a grasp on their

467
00:28:58,596 --> 00:29:02,356
Speaker 6: own power, their own like free will.

468
00:29:02,756 --> 00:29:06,636
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of powerless. I mean, there's a lot

469
00:29:06,636 --> 00:29:09,796
Speaker 1: of powerless people out there, you know, and an illusion.

470
00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:12,036
Speaker 6: It's an illusion that you're powerless.

471
00:29:11,916 --> 00:29:14,556
Speaker 1: Often so often. So I think you're right. I think

472
00:29:14,556 --> 00:29:16,676
Speaker 1: you're right, you know. I mean, you certainly seemed to

473
00:29:16,716 --> 00:29:20,156
Speaker 1: have figured out how to arrive where you wanted to

474
00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:23,236
Speaker 1: probably go most of the time. I mean, I don't

475
00:29:23,276 --> 00:29:26,156
Speaker 1: know a ton about you, but I mean you you

476
00:29:26,196 --> 00:29:30,916
Speaker 1: did get signed kind of early, and we're like, I mean,

477
00:29:30,916 --> 00:29:32,636
Speaker 1: maybe you can just tell the story. I don't know.

478
00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:35,676
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I was discovered at school in high school.

479
00:29:36,956 --> 00:29:37,556
Speaker 1: Performing arts.

480
00:29:37,636 --> 00:29:41,796
Speaker 6: High school is just a regular high school. College prep

481
00:29:41,796 --> 00:29:44,756
Speaker 6: school had a lot of bougie people going through there,

482
00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:51,516
Speaker 6: but it wasn't a performing arts school. And I was

483
00:29:51,556 --> 00:29:54,116
Speaker 6: standing outside in the carpool lane waiting for my folks,

484
00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:57,556
Speaker 6: and I was just singing to myself and somebody's parent

485
00:29:58,316 --> 00:30:01,156
Speaker 6: came and was sitting next to me, and I kind

486
00:30:01,156 --> 00:30:03,676
Speaker 6: of noticed him because I was like, he's sitting weirdly close,

487
00:30:04,996 --> 00:30:07,276
Speaker 6: but I was minding my business, kept singing my song.

488
00:30:07,796 --> 00:30:11,076
Speaker 6: Then after I was done singing, uh, he came up

489
00:30:11,076 --> 00:30:13,436
Speaker 6: to me and he was like, do you want to

490
00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:18,916
Speaker 6: be a pop star? It's like, what, who were you?

491
00:30:19,476 --> 00:30:24,036
Speaker 6: I was just like stranger, danger, it was this man.

492
00:30:24,236 --> 00:30:25,956
Speaker 6: And then he started asking me questions. He's like, do

493
00:30:26,036 --> 00:30:29,316
Speaker 6: you dance? Like how's your fashion sense? Like what you know?

494
00:30:29,436 --> 00:30:31,916
Speaker 6: Kind of music are you into? Do you like pop music?

495
00:30:32,716 --> 00:30:34,356
Speaker 6: And I was like, you should talk to my parents

496
00:30:34,396 --> 00:30:41,796
Speaker 6: because ye like he was like an old man, and

497
00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:44,436
Speaker 6: so he talked to my parents and he was very

498
00:30:44,476 --> 00:30:48,956
Speaker 6: serious about tracking a song with me, and I went

499
00:30:48,996 --> 00:30:52,236
Speaker 6: over to his house with my parents a few weeks

500
00:30:52,316 --> 00:30:54,396
Speaker 6: later and track the only song that I had written

501
00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:59,996
Speaker 6: at that point. So it was called what was it

502
00:31:00,036 --> 00:31:03,596
Speaker 6: called some? It was think it was called something.

503
00:31:04,396 --> 00:31:06,876
Speaker 3: Something you don't know about me?

504
00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:08,156
Speaker 4: Is that?

505
00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:08,756
Speaker 6: Amo?

506
00:31:09,356 --> 00:31:14,076
Speaker 3: Then my bones I've been here before, you know me.

507
00:31:17,116 --> 00:31:19,396
Speaker 6: Sadly they owned the publishing on that and it's never

508
00:31:19,436 --> 00:31:21,756
Speaker 6: coming out.

509
00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:25,876
Speaker 1: We won't pay him.

510
00:31:27,116 --> 00:31:30,316
Speaker 6: And yeah, that was the only song that I'd written

511
00:31:30,356 --> 00:31:34,516
Speaker 6: at that point, and I tracked it and he produced it,

512
00:31:34,716 --> 00:31:38,836
Speaker 6: and then the label was super jazz about it. They're like,

513
00:31:38,836 --> 00:31:41,796
Speaker 6: whoa this voice? Whoa this girl? Oh she's only seventeen?

514
00:31:42,036 --> 00:31:44,116
Speaker 6: Oh shit, okay, here we go.

515
00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:49,396
Speaker 1: And did he was was it like a had he

516
00:31:49,476 --> 00:31:50,156
Speaker 1: built the popster?

517
00:31:50,716 --> 00:31:52,396
Speaker 6: No, it was like it was an imprint, And yes,

518
00:31:52,436 --> 00:31:54,396
Speaker 6: he kind of had. He he was like a big

519
00:31:54,436 --> 00:31:57,156
Speaker 6: producer for all that era of Disney that was like

520
00:31:57,196 --> 00:32:01,156
Speaker 6: the Cheetah Girls, Hillary Duff, like he was on all

521
00:32:01,196 --> 00:32:01,396
Speaker 6: of that.

522
00:32:01,556 --> 00:32:02,836
Speaker 1: He had done all of that. But this is look

523
00:32:02,876 --> 00:32:05,516
Speaker 1: some time later, so he removed from that. But that

524
00:32:05,676 --> 00:32:07,276
Speaker 1: was his okay, okay.

525
00:32:06,996 --> 00:32:11,716
Speaker 6: That was his like claim to fame. And they had

526
00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:14,276
Speaker 6: another big artist on their on their label at that time,

527
00:32:14,836 --> 00:32:17,156
Speaker 6: who who had done quite well for herself as well,

528
00:32:17,996 --> 00:32:21,676
Speaker 6: and so it was legit like it was a legit thing.

529
00:32:21,716 --> 00:32:24,836
Speaker 6: It wasn't some like garage label, you know, they were

530
00:32:25,236 --> 00:32:26,996
Speaker 6: they were fully backed and it was all a thing.

531
00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:32,396
Speaker 6: But I, you know, didn't have money for a lower

532
00:32:32,436 --> 00:32:35,276
Speaker 6: proper lawyer, and you know, I fell into that trap

533
00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:37,556
Speaker 6: of like, oh, well, we'll cover your legal fees, like

534
00:32:37,596 --> 00:32:40,876
Speaker 6: it's all good. You know, we got you your friendly

535
00:32:40,876 --> 00:32:45,796
Speaker 6: neighborhood label. And I let them do that and ended

536
00:32:45,876 --> 00:32:49,876
Speaker 6: up in a contract that was really really suffocating and

537
00:32:49,876 --> 00:32:55,036
Speaker 6: and quite quite intense and should be illegal. And I

538
00:32:55,076 --> 00:32:57,716
Speaker 6: didn't really it didn't turn sour till about two years

539
00:32:57,716 --> 00:33:00,396
Speaker 6: after that point. I was learning to write. I was

540
00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:04,196
Speaker 6: writing with all of these amazing top liners and a

541
00:33:04,196 --> 00:33:07,076
Speaker 6: few Motown folks who were still around, and every day

542
00:33:07,076 --> 00:33:08,996
Speaker 6: we would just sit at the piano and write songs.

543
00:33:09,196 --> 00:33:12,036
Speaker 6: And that's how I like learned how to really craft

544
00:33:12,076 --> 00:33:15,956
Speaker 6: a song, very meticulously a pop song.

545
00:33:17,116 --> 00:33:19,476
Speaker 1: And you would bring an idea, I would write it.

546
00:33:19,596 --> 00:33:20,316
Speaker 1: I would write it.

547
00:33:20,436 --> 00:33:23,356
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would write every song, okay, but he would

548
00:33:23,356 --> 00:33:26,636
Speaker 6: help me like craft melody and hook and and all

549
00:33:26,676 --> 00:33:31,596
Speaker 6: these things and turn them into like traditional pop songs.

550
00:33:31,756 --> 00:33:35,436
Speaker 1: That's interesting to experience at that time.

551
00:33:35,556 --> 00:33:37,156
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was cool to get a

552
00:33:37,236 --> 00:33:39,756
Speaker 6: lesson in that and to have that mentorship and to

553
00:33:39,836 --> 00:33:43,316
Speaker 6: really stretch my ability in that way. And and and

554
00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:46,636
Speaker 6: I think that training is what still informs a lot

555
00:33:46,676 --> 00:33:51,316
Speaker 6: of my practice, like I've since like broken a lot

556
00:33:51,316 --> 00:33:55,756
Speaker 6: of the molds that I was taught. But with that knowledge,

557
00:33:55,956 --> 00:33:57,756
Speaker 6: you know, I think it's good to learn your basics

558
00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:01,316
Speaker 6: and then and then explore from there. So for me,

559
00:34:01,396 --> 00:34:05,636
Speaker 6: that was my basics, and you know, it was it

560
00:34:05,676 --> 00:34:07,756
Speaker 6: was fine up till the point. And then I when

561
00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:11,036
Speaker 6: I started to come into my own as an artist

562
00:34:11,076 --> 00:34:14,476
Speaker 6: and realized like, oh, here's what I want. Here's that's

563
00:34:14,516 --> 00:34:19,196
Speaker 6: when there was this deviation with the label system.

564
00:34:19,316 --> 00:34:21,316
Speaker 1: When you were ready to move past the basics, breaks

565
00:34:21,316 --> 00:34:23,516
Speaker 1: of rules, exactly find your own voice.

566
00:34:23,676 --> 00:34:27,956
Speaker 6: Right then it became a problem and I was shelved,

567
00:34:28,676 --> 00:34:31,556
Speaker 6: and I didn't know what that was. I kept coming

568
00:34:31,596 --> 00:34:34,476
Speaker 6: to them with new music and new stuff, and they

569
00:34:34,476 --> 00:34:36,396
Speaker 6: were just they wouldn't even tell me of a shelve.

570
00:34:36,436 --> 00:34:38,036
Speaker 6: They would just keep being like, oh, yeah, you know,

571
00:34:38,116 --> 00:34:41,116
Speaker 6: we'll submit it. We'll see like maybe we can get

572
00:34:41,156 --> 00:34:42,916
Speaker 6: you something a budget, or maybe we can put it

573
00:34:42,916 --> 00:34:46,756
Speaker 6: out maybe maybe maybe maybe, And they just kept pushing

574
00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:48,716
Speaker 6: my boundaries like they were like, oh, you need to

575
00:34:48,756 --> 00:34:50,796
Speaker 6: drop out of school if you want us to think

576
00:34:50,836 --> 00:34:53,196
Speaker 6: you're taking this seriously. So I dropped it to college.

577
00:34:53,396 --> 00:34:55,276
Speaker 6: So you need to you need to be in sessions

578
00:34:55,276 --> 00:34:57,036
Speaker 6: every day, so I was like working three jobs on

579
00:34:57,076 --> 00:34:59,916
Speaker 6: top of going to sessions till three am, like I was.

580
00:35:00,556 --> 00:35:03,036
Speaker 6: I was so exhausted at one point, and I remember

581
00:35:03,116 --> 00:35:06,916
Speaker 6: coming home and I was living with my parents and crying,

582
00:35:07,356 --> 00:35:10,316
Speaker 6: and my mom and my dad were like, you know,

583
00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:12,476
Speaker 6: this is supposed to be fun, like music.

584
00:35:12,196 --> 00:35:13,276
Speaker 1: Is supposed to be fun.

585
00:35:15,236 --> 00:35:17,036
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's like and it doesn't look like you're having

586
00:35:17,156 --> 00:35:21,956
Speaker 6: any fun. And for me, that was that you know,

587
00:35:22,076 --> 00:35:24,476
Speaker 6: realization point. But I was still so young, and I

588
00:35:24,556 --> 00:35:26,036
Speaker 6: was like, Okay, well maybe I need to make pop

589
00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:27,836
Speaker 6: music again because that was the last time this was

590
00:35:27,956 --> 00:35:30,556
Speaker 6: kind of fun. So that I did that, and then

591
00:35:31,156 --> 00:35:34,236
Speaker 6: the final straw was getting offered like an even somehow

592
00:35:34,236 --> 00:35:42,356
Speaker 6: more predatory deal for the album cycle, and I took

593
00:35:42,436 --> 00:35:44,156
Speaker 6: one look at that. My mom took one look at that,

594
00:35:44,276 --> 00:35:46,716
Speaker 6: and even as not being lawyers, she was like, there's

595
00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:49,236
Speaker 6: no way you're going to survive this. If you sign

596
00:35:49,276 --> 00:35:52,756
Speaker 6: this deal, I'm afraid you might off yourself because you're

597
00:35:52,756 --> 00:35:56,956
Speaker 6: already so depressed and you're so you're unfulfilled, you feel trapped,

598
00:35:57,036 --> 00:36:01,036
Speaker 6: and then you're going to sign a ten album deal. No, yeah, no,

599
00:36:01,156 --> 00:36:02,956
Speaker 6: you're getting on a plane and you're going back to

600
00:36:03,276 --> 00:36:08,156
Speaker 6: college tonight. Literally that day, I went back to Boston

601
00:36:08,236 --> 00:36:09,796
Speaker 6: to go back to Universe City, and I called the

602
00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:11,676
Speaker 6: label from there and it was like I'm quitting.

603
00:36:11,836 --> 00:36:12,156
Speaker 1: Wow.

604
00:36:12,836 --> 00:36:14,676
Speaker 6: And then they were like, okay, well, if you're quitting music,

605
00:36:14,716 --> 00:36:16,196
Speaker 6: then there's no need to let you out of your contract.

606
00:36:20,156 --> 00:36:24,276
Speaker 6: So and I didn't have any any rights to to

607
00:36:25,236 --> 00:36:28,196
Speaker 6: fight that, so I just ended up having to wait

608
00:36:28,636 --> 00:36:30,716
Speaker 6: till like, like you know, a while.

609
00:36:31,396 --> 00:36:33,796
Speaker 1: So it's a weird experiences, a weird way to have

610
00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:39,556
Speaker 1: your college experience. Like that's just like a what what was?

611
00:36:40,196 --> 00:36:43,196
Speaker 1: And you you graduated college, right, so you did political

612
00:36:43,196 --> 00:36:47,916
Speaker 1: science in political science and were you just like did

613
00:36:47,956 --> 00:36:51,916
Speaker 1: you at a certain point imagine that that music as

614
00:36:51,916 --> 00:36:53,836
Speaker 1: a career was behind you?

615
00:36:53,956 --> 00:36:57,476
Speaker 6: Yeah? I mean when I when I when I went

616
00:36:57,556 --> 00:37:00,476
Speaker 6: to school, it was like I kind of just accepted

617
00:37:00,556 --> 00:37:06,636
Speaker 6: that I stopped playing guitar. I would sing occasionally in

618
00:37:06,676 --> 00:37:11,356
Speaker 6: like college bands and stuff, but I just was like, Okay,

619
00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:13,756
Speaker 6: this is a hobby. Like I don't even I don't

620
00:37:13,756 --> 00:37:14,956
Speaker 6: know how I'm men to get out of this deal.

621
00:37:15,036 --> 00:37:19,516
Speaker 6: I don't know how, Like they just completely cut off

622
00:37:19,956 --> 00:37:24,196
Speaker 6: my hands in a metaphorical sense to be able to

623
00:37:24,236 --> 00:37:26,676
Speaker 6: make music in a way that would even be sustainable

624
00:37:27,996 --> 00:37:31,036
Speaker 6: as a job or as like a livelihood. So it

625
00:37:31,116 --> 00:37:33,516
Speaker 6: was off the table for so long. So that's how

626
00:37:33,516 --> 00:37:36,716
Speaker 6: I got into my other mediums and other things. I

627
00:37:36,756 --> 00:37:43,996
Speaker 6: was passionate about sculpture, papermaking, cinema, photography, painting. I had

628
00:37:43,996 --> 00:37:47,156
Speaker 6: so many other creative outlets that music for a while.

629
00:37:47,236 --> 00:37:50,876
Speaker 6: Being on the back burner was fine, but it was

630
00:37:50,916 --> 00:37:54,876
Speaker 6: something that kept like knocking at the door. And I

631
00:37:54,956 --> 00:37:59,836
Speaker 6: never stopped making music. I just I just was constantly

632
00:37:59,876 --> 00:38:02,796
Speaker 6: readjusting my goals. And then by the time I was

633
00:38:02,796 --> 00:38:05,956
Speaker 6: out of that contract, I was like, Okay, I'm going

634
00:38:05,996 --> 00:38:08,396
Speaker 6: to do this independently and see how far I can

635
00:38:08,476 --> 00:38:11,876
Speaker 6: go because the major label system is so corrupt and

636
00:38:12,596 --> 00:38:17,196
Speaker 6: so sickle. Yeah, that for what I'm trying to build,

637
00:38:17,756 --> 00:38:20,196
Speaker 6: it doesn't make sense to engage with it at all.

638
00:38:21,036 --> 00:38:23,276
Speaker 6: I knew at that point that the type of music

639
00:38:23,316 --> 00:38:25,156
Speaker 6: I was trying to make was the type of music

640
00:38:25,236 --> 00:38:29,356
Speaker 6: that would be considered a classic in fifty years, and

641
00:38:30,556 --> 00:38:32,636
Speaker 6: that kind of music wasn't going to survive in the

642
00:38:32,716 --> 00:38:36,716
Speaker 6: in the cultural climate of you know, the twenty tens.

643
00:38:37,076 --> 00:38:39,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just wasn't the pop music of the twenty

644
00:38:39,316 --> 00:38:41,636
Speaker 1: tens was not going to produce. Yeah.

645
00:38:42,116 --> 00:38:44,556
Speaker 6: No, And it's like maybe maybe in fifty years, we're

646
00:38:44,556 --> 00:38:47,956
Speaker 6: gonna we're gonna think of, like, I don't know, pink

647
00:38:47,996 --> 00:38:53,196
Speaker 6: Print as a classic record. I don't know, I don't know.

648
00:38:53,356 --> 00:38:55,276
Speaker 1: It's a good record, but it's probably was never the

649
00:38:55,316 --> 00:38:56,156
Speaker 1: record you were going to make.

650
00:38:56,236 --> 00:38:57,796
Speaker 6: No, it's not the record I was ever going to

651
00:38:57,836 --> 00:39:01,316
Speaker 6: make it. It's a good record, and you know, it

652
00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:04,076
Speaker 6: was fun. It's fun exactly. And it's like maybe when

653
00:39:04,076 --> 00:39:07,676
Speaker 6: that comes on, when like we're all, you know, super

654
00:39:07,676 --> 00:39:10,076
Speaker 6: old and crusty, were like you back.

655
00:39:09,956 --> 00:39:15,076
Speaker 1: In the day, I will already do that.

656
00:39:16,796 --> 00:39:19,396
Speaker 6: But I think that's a little different than like hearing

657
00:39:19,436 --> 00:39:23,116
Speaker 6: a Bill Withers record or hearing Anita record, And I

658
00:39:23,156 --> 00:39:26,756
Speaker 6: maybe that's just like future nostalgia kicking it.

659
00:39:26,996 --> 00:39:30,196
Speaker 1: That's not the goal of you might get classics in

660
00:39:30,916 --> 00:39:32,556
Speaker 1: the pop industry these days, but it's not the goal.

661
00:39:32,796 --> 00:39:35,716
Speaker 1: It's incidental, it's not like it's not the goal.

662
00:39:35,836 --> 00:39:36,476
Speaker 6: That's a good point.

663
00:39:36,756 --> 00:39:40,396
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you were you were smart to like observe

664
00:39:40,476 --> 00:39:42,436
Speaker 1: that and remove yourself from it.

665
00:39:42,556 --> 00:39:45,756
Speaker 6: Yeah, disengage. Yeah, and you know, it's like short term

666
00:39:45,756 --> 00:39:50,756
Speaker 6: gains over over long term legacy. It's not the music

667
00:39:50,796 --> 00:39:52,996
Speaker 6: industry this these days is not really in for a

668
00:39:52,996 --> 00:39:57,036
Speaker 6: long term legacy. They say they are, but the function

669
00:39:57,116 --> 00:39:59,476
Speaker 6: of what you see in the back end is that's

670
00:39:59,516 --> 00:40:01,036
Speaker 6: not the That's not the case at all.

671
00:40:01,516 --> 00:40:05,716
Speaker 1: So in your parents both were in fashion, you you

672
00:40:05,796 --> 00:40:09,916
Speaker 1: also work in fashion? Used not anymore?

673
00:40:10,596 --> 00:40:14,636
Speaker 6: No, I quit modeling in twenty twenty two. Technically, like

674
00:40:14,756 --> 00:40:20,476
Speaker 6: for myself, I just stopped. Stop submitting for jobs, stop

675
00:40:21,276 --> 00:40:26,196
Speaker 6: doing the casting, stop doing the whole scene of it.

676
00:40:26,236 --> 00:40:30,236
Speaker 6: Occasionally things come through and if it makes sense and

677
00:40:30,596 --> 00:40:34,876
Speaker 6: I'll do it, but it's not like I'm no longer

678
00:40:34,956 --> 00:40:38,036
Speaker 6: engaging with fashion as a model, like just a face.

679
00:40:38,956 --> 00:40:41,756
Speaker 6: Somebody wants to engage with me as an artist, great,

680
00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:47,396
Speaker 6: I'm they're awesome, But fashion as a model from that

681
00:40:47,436 --> 00:40:49,236
Speaker 6: industry side, I just outgrew it.

682
00:40:49,276 --> 00:40:52,396
Speaker 1: Is that What was your relationship to fashion as a kid,

683
00:40:52,476 --> 00:40:54,076
Speaker 1: like with your parents being in it, was it like

684
00:40:54,116 --> 00:40:56,116
Speaker 1: you admired that they were in it and you wanted

685
00:40:56,116 --> 00:40:58,796
Speaker 1: to participate or was it a bit just that's their thing.

686
00:40:59,236 --> 00:41:01,676
Speaker 6: No, I actually wanted to be a fashion designer, and

687
00:41:01,716 --> 00:41:05,396
Speaker 6: my dad was like no, flat up thought out.

688
00:41:05,396 --> 00:41:06,996
Speaker 1: He was like no, and what was his reason?

689
00:41:07,636 --> 00:41:11,436
Speaker 6: He's like this is one of the hardest careers you

690
00:41:11,476 --> 00:41:14,116
Speaker 6: could ever choose for yourself, So just I don't want

691
00:41:14,116 --> 00:41:17,556
Speaker 6: that for you. And then I chose music, which is

692
00:41:17,596 --> 00:41:20,636
Speaker 6: the second hardest, which is maybe the first hardest, I

693
00:41:20,636 --> 00:41:23,116
Speaker 6: would say, but I don't know. I think there maybe

694
00:41:23,116 --> 00:41:27,556
Speaker 6: neck and neck these days, but yeah, very very tough

695
00:41:27,636 --> 00:41:31,436
Speaker 6: industries to be in fashion and music, because you know,

696
00:41:32,476 --> 00:41:35,196
Speaker 6: there's a there's this aspect of scale that you need

697
00:41:35,836 --> 00:41:41,676
Speaker 6: to be quote successful in both and I don't Growing

698
00:41:41,756 --> 00:41:44,756
Speaker 6: up like, I was just so enamored with my parents'

699
00:41:45,516 --> 00:41:49,796
Speaker 6: work and their work ethic, their creativity, their ability to

700
00:41:49,956 --> 00:41:56,316
Speaker 6: like sculpt the body with fashion and and create something

701
00:41:56,396 --> 00:42:02,276
Speaker 6: from scratch to like beauty, and how they manufactured beauty

702
00:42:02,636 --> 00:42:06,916
Speaker 6: from their own vision. It was something that yeah, I

703
00:42:06,956 --> 00:42:08,796
Speaker 6: just knew that I wanted to be a part of.

704
00:42:08,836 --> 00:42:11,076
Speaker 6: Like I knew I wanted to manufacture beauty as well.

705
00:42:11,116 --> 00:42:13,396
Speaker 6: I wanted to pluck it out of our existence and

706
00:42:14,036 --> 00:42:16,916
Speaker 6: show it to people. However I was going to do that,

707
00:42:17,076 --> 00:42:20,236
Speaker 6: and it wasn't clear as a kid, but because I

708
00:42:20,396 --> 00:42:22,556
Speaker 6: had fashion designer parents, it's like, oh, I'll just be

709
00:42:22,556 --> 00:42:24,676
Speaker 6: a fashion designer, like because that's what you guys do.

710
00:42:25,036 --> 00:42:28,116
Speaker 6: And you're like no, be a doctor, be a lawyer,

711
00:42:29,396 --> 00:42:32,956
Speaker 6: anything but this. And yeah I'm anything but that.

712
00:42:33,556 --> 00:42:36,756
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, no, it's but you did, but you

713
00:42:36,796 --> 00:42:39,036
Speaker 1: did circle, you did come back to it at certain

714
00:42:39,036 --> 00:42:41,076
Speaker 1: point then I did. Yeah, is that like during college?

715
00:42:41,156 --> 00:42:41,756
Speaker 1: Your college?

716
00:42:42,116 --> 00:42:44,476
Speaker 6: No, it was my accident. It was my accident. I didn't.

717
00:42:44,596 --> 00:42:47,196
Speaker 6: I didn't set out to be a model. I was

718
00:42:47,196 --> 00:42:53,396
Speaker 6: working at a gallery. I was an intern, and randomly

719
00:42:53,596 --> 00:42:57,436
Speaker 6: I helped. I got called that day to help a friend,

720
00:42:57,516 --> 00:43:00,276
Speaker 6: like with a shoot she was shooting for her brand.

721
00:43:00,676 --> 00:43:02,636
Speaker 6: She's like, hey, a model dropped out, like could you

722
00:43:02,676 --> 00:43:06,076
Speaker 6: just jump in? Like it's just a few shots. So

723
00:43:06,116 --> 00:43:07,796
Speaker 6: I told my boss and I was like, hey, is

724
00:43:07,836 --> 00:43:10,196
Speaker 6: it okay if I leave early today? And she's like yeah, yeah, fine, go.

725
00:43:11,036 --> 00:43:13,916
Speaker 6: So I went over to her house I did this shoot,

726
00:43:13,996 --> 00:43:16,996
Speaker 6: and at that shoot there was this makeup artist who

727
00:43:17,076 --> 00:43:21,356
Speaker 6: was saying that Nike had been looking for musicians for

728
00:43:21,396 --> 00:43:24,556
Speaker 6: an ad and I was like, oh, I'm a musician,

729
00:43:24,636 --> 00:43:28,276
Speaker 6: like I could do it, and she's like okay, yeah,

730
00:43:28,436 --> 00:43:30,556
Speaker 6: and I'll take a photo. I'll send it over. She

731
00:43:30,676 --> 00:43:33,836
Speaker 6: sent it over and then I got booked street cast

732
00:43:33,876 --> 00:43:38,916
Speaker 6: off of that, and Nike's notorious for street casting people

733
00:43:39,596 --> 00:43:42,636
Speaker 6: and underpaying them. So I think I got paid like

734
00:43:42,676 --> 00:43:45,356
Speaker 6: five hundred bucks for the shoot, which at that time

735
00:43:45,756 --> 00:43:47,396
Speaker 6: was a crazy money to me because I was like

736
00:43:47,436 --> 00:43:50,236
Speaker 6: in cafe jobs and making five hundred dollars every two weeks.

737
00:43:50,556 --> 00:43:53,636
Speaker 6: Like yeah, I was like one day, five hundred dollars

738
00:43:53,836 --> 00:43:59,036
Speaker 6: crazy and I was like, yeah, of course I'll be there.

739
00:43:59,316 --> 00:44:02,876
Speaker 6: So I did it and it was It was a

740
00:44:02,916 --> 00:44:06,236
Speaker 6: really fun, fun shoot day, had a great time that

741
00:44:06,396 --> 00:44:11,876
Speaker 6: ended up being an international billboard cam pain. Yeah. Yeah.

742
00:44:12,276 --> 00:44:15,116
Speaker 6: The severity of which I was underpaid is like criminal.

743
00:44:17,076 --> 00:44:19,756
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what about I don't know

744
00:44:19,756 --> 00:44:22,756
Speaker 1: a thing about anything. Yeah, but I know that sounds

745
00:44:22,956 --> 00:44:23,396
Speaker 1: really good.

746
00:44:23,556 --> 00:44:27,996
Speaker 6: They really they really took advantage for sure. And I

747
00:44:28,116 --> 00:44:32,996
Speaker 6: was like in every subway, multiple billboards across New York,

748
00:44:33,276 --> 00:44:37,996
Speaker 6: La Paris, London, Turkey. My mom was in Australian. She

749
00:44:38,036 --> 00:44:40,996
Speaker 6: has a picture of me literally like twenty feet tall,

750
00:44:41,196 --> 00:44:51,636
Speaker 6: like everywhere everywhere, my face Nike. But you know, it

751
00:44:51,756 --> 00:44:53,116
Speaker 6: launched my modeling career.

752
00:44:53,916 --> 00:44:56,476
Speaker 1: You did get more jobs, so they kept hiring me.

753
00:44:56,556 --> 00:45:00,916
Speaker 6: Actually, Nike was hiring me for like years after that. Uh,

754
00:45:01,036 --> 00:45:04,076
Speaker 6: you renegotiated, and I renegotiated once I learned what the

755
00:45:04,196 --> 00:45:06,556
Speaker 6: what the actual going rate was because I was doing

756
00:45:06,556 --> 00:45:09,436
Speaker 6: it independently because no modeling agencies would sign me. Yeah,

757
00:45:10,116 --> 00:45:13,356
Speaker 6: they just didn't see the vision right, and I wasn't

758
00:45:13,356 --> 00:45:15,796
Speaker 6: gonna force it upon them. I was like, whatever, I'm

759
00:45:15,796 --> 00:45:20,076
Speaker 6: booking jobs directly, it's fine. But eventually I did find

760
00:45:20,116 --> 00:45:22,396
Speaker 6: agents and then that became my main source of income

761
00:45:22,436 --> 00:45:25,156
Speaker 6: and allowed me to stay in the music game as

762
00:45:25,196 --> 00:45:28,356
Speaker 6: long as I have, because like, there's no money in music,

763
00:45:28,636 --> 00:45:32,676
Speaker 6: there's no If you're an artist and a singer, you're

764
00:45:32,676 --> 00:45:35,076
Speaker 6: in like one of the worst positions because you can't

765
00:45:35,316 --> 00:45:39,476
Speaker 6: really play for other people. You can't like like you're

766
00:45:39,796 --> 00:45:42,436
Speaker 6: you're so specific. It's like you can only do your thing.

767
00:45:42,596 --> 00:45:45,036
Speaker 1: Explain that for me at least.

768
00:45:44,756 --> 00:45:49,636
Speaker 6: It's like I don't I don't produce traditionally. I don't

769
00:45:49,756 --> 00:45:52,636
Speaker 6: like I can use DAWs, but I don't like using them.

770
00:45:52,676 --> 00:45:54,716
Speaker 6: I'm not the best at it, so it's like I'm

771
00:45:54,756 --> 00:45:56,796
Speaker 6: not doing that for other people, and I also don't

772
00:45:56,796 --> 00:46:00,076
Speaker 6: want to give the time to doing that for other people.

773
00:46:01,316 --> 00:46:04,196
Speaker 6: I wouldn't call myself a guitarist in the sense that

774
00:46:04,236 --> 00:46:06,356
Speaker 6: I can go and play other people's music with like

775
00:46:06,636 --> 00:46:10,596
Speaker 6: two hours notice and learn everything that quickly. Not a pianist.

776
00:46:10,836 --> 00:46:13,996
Speaker 6: I don't play any other instruments to that level of competency.

777
00:46:15,436 --> 00:46:18,316
Speaker 6: I could write for other people, but I am such

778
00:46:18,356 --> 00:46:21,996
Speaker 6: so personal about my writing that I don't really enjoy it.

779
00:46:24,316 --> 00:46:29,836
Speaker 6: So you've knocked off like any of the other income field, right,

780
00:46:29,996 --> 00:46:32,436
Speaker 6: And it's like I don't I don't really play covers.

781
00:46:32,996 --> 00:46:36,956
Speaker 6: So it's like wedding bands are out, Like there's just

782
00:46:37,036 --> 00:46:39,396
Speaker 6: no there was like no way for me to make

783
00:46:39,476 --> 00:46:44,796
Speaker 6: money musically unless I'm doing my own thing. And I

784
00:46:44,876 --> 00:46:47,956
Speaker 6: was so dedicated to my own thing and to figuring

785
00:46:47,996 --> 00:46:51,196
Speaker 6: out what that was that I wasn't interested in making

786
00:46:51,196 --> 00:46:54,276
Speaker 6: a musical career out of doing other people's things. I

787
00:46:54,396 --> 00:46:57,396
Speaker 6: just wasn't. And so making money for music and sustaining

788
00:46:57,396 --> 00:47:01,476
Speaker 6: myself off of it, it's it's it's a dream I

789
00:47:01,476 --> 00:47:05,196
Speaker 6: still haven't even realized because now even I'm I'm not

790
00:47:05,316 --> 00:47:09,996
Speaker 6: able to pay my bills off of music. And that's

791
00:47:10,036 --> 00:47:13,756
Speaker 6: the reality of the industry. That is a separate, long conversation.

792
00:47:15,116 --> 00:47:20,796
Speaker 6: But in the meantime, like fashion and commercial work has

793
00:47:20,916 --> 00:47:24,996
Speaker 6: like sustained me and allowed me to have enough free

794
00:47:24,996 --> 00:47:26,036
Speaker 6: time to be an artist.

795
00:47:26,236 --> 00:47:33,156
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna ask how this place. I mean,

796
00:47:33,156 --> 00:47:35,476
Speaker 1: you probably just answered it, but I would like to

797
00:47:35,516 --> 00:47:39,236
Speaker 1: talk about I mean, you're I didn't even really realize

798
00:47:39,276 --> 00:47:42,836
Speaker 1: this until like i'd seen it, and then later I

799
00:47:42,876 --> 00:47:44,716
Speaker 1: heard the mute, and then it took me a long

800
00:47:44,716 --> 00:47:46,516
Speaker 1: time to put two and two together that you were

801
00:47:46,596 --> 00:47:48,196
Speaker 1: in Kendricks see their video?

802
00:47:50,676 --> 00:47:52,956
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, super random?

803
00:47:53,596 --> 00:47:54,876
Speaker 1: Like what was that? How did that happen?

804
00:47:55,076 --> 00:47:58,116
Speaker 6: How did it happen? I'm Corrina, a director. She is

805
00:47:58,156 --> 00:48:01,596
Speaker 6: a fan, and she came to a show I opened

806
00:48:01,636 --> 00:48:05,956
Speaker 6: for Charlotte Day Wilson a few years ago, and she

807
00:48:06,076 --> 00:48:08,396
Speaker 6: was at that show and she just remembered me, and

808
00:48:08,436 --> 00:48:10,716
Speaker 6: she DMed me on Instagram. She's like, hey, I don't

809
00:48:10,716 --> 00:48:12,476
Speaker 6: know if you remember me. We met the back stage

810
00:48:12,756 --> 00:48:15,876
Speaker 6: like two seconds. But I am directing this music video

811
00:48:15,996 --> 00:48:18,436
Speaker 6: and I want you to be a part of it.

812
00:48:18,516 --> 00:48:20,436
Speaker 6: And I was like, I don't really do other people's

813
00:48:20,516 --> 00:48:24,436
Speaker 6: music videos, like I'm not really a model anymore. She's

814
00:48:24,516 --> 00:48:27,036
Speaker 6: like no, no, no, just like please, like I'll send you

815
00:48:27,076 --> 00:48:30,116
Speaker 6: the treatment signed the NDA, like I think you're gonna

816
00:48:30,156 --> 00:48:30,716
Speaker 6: love this one.

817
00:48:30,796 --> 00:48:31,476
Speaker 1: You didn't know who it was.

818
00:48:31,556 --> 00:48:33,116
Speaker 6: I didn't know who it was. No, she couldn't tell me,

819
00:48:33,996 --> 00:48:36,036
Speaker 6: and so I signed the NDA and then so then

820
00:48:36,076 --> 00:48:38,436
Speaker 6: she can send it over. She sends it over and

821
00:48:38,476 --> 00:48:42,996
Speaker 6: I see it's for Kendrick, and I'm like, oh shit, okay.

822
00:48:44,676 --> 00:48:47,556
Speaker 6: And I read through the treatments, A beautiful treatment, a

823
00:48:47,636 --> 00:48:52,076
Speaker 6: film about you know, intimacy and connection and longing and

824
00:48:52,196 --> 00:48:57,236
Speaker 6: yearning and like wanting to show up for someone and

825
00:48:57,516 --> 00:49:00,596
Speaker 6: not really quite knowing how yet, but like wanting to

826
00:49:00,636 --> 00:49:05,156
Speaker 6: give them the world, and I yeah, I just love

827
00:49:05,236 --> 00:49:07,316
Speaker 6: the concepts and I love that that I was being

828
00:49:07,356 --> 00:49:11,396
Speaker 6: considered for as a muse for that medium, that that feeling.

829
00:49:12,996 --> 00:49:15,116
Speaker 6: And then it almost all didn't happen because I was

830
00:49:15,196 --> 00:49:18,956
Speaker 6: I was out of town and there was like scheduling conflicts,

831
00:49:18,956 --> 00:49:20,516
Speaker 6: there was almost no way for me to get back

832
00:49:20,556 --> 00:49:24,316
Speaker 6: in time to shoot it. And then the LA fires happened.

833
00:49:24,356 --> 00:49:25,956
Speaker 6: The whole thing got canceled.

834
00:49:26,116 --> 00:49:26,476
Speaker 1: Wow.

835
00:49:26,756 --> 00:49:32,356
Speaker 6: Then a few months later they were able to bring

836
00:49:32,396 --> 00:49:34,116
Speaker 6: the production back up and they were like, hey about

837
00:49:34,156 --> 00:49:36,476
Speaker 6: you buy any chance like free and in LA and

838
00:49:36,476 --> 00:49:40,116
Speaker 6: I'm like, I am, okay, well you still be in it?

839
00:49:40,196 --> 00:49:42,516
Speaker 6: And I was like, yeah, I would love to and

840
00:49:42,596 --> 00:49:44,676
Speaker 6: it all. You know. I like to just take on

841
00:49:44,836 --> 00:49:47,156
Speaker 6: little side quests when I can, And that just seemed

842
00:49:47,196 --> 00:49:48,276
Speaker 6: like a fun thing to do.

843
00:49:48,596 --> 00:49:51,276
Speaker 1: It was such a cool treatment and done so well

844
00:49:51,396 --> 00:49:53,156
Speaker 1: that it's like, I get why you would take this,

845
00:49:53,516 --> 00:49:55,196
Speaker 1: I mean beyond just like the thrill of it's like

846
00:49:55,436 --> 00:49:57,716
Speaker 1: it's the song is incredible and all that. It's it's

847
00:49:57,756 --> 00:49:58,556
Speaker 1: a great treatment.

848
00:49:58,636 --> 00:50:01,356
Speaker 6: It's really beautiful. I was really grateful to ask be

849
00:50:01,436 --> 00:50:04,276
Speaker 6: asked to act, And you know, it's something that I'm

850
00:50:04,276 --> 00:50:09,196
Speaker 6: like softly looking into, not looking into acting, but like

851
00:50:09,236 --> 00:50:11,436
Speaker 6: people have been asking me more and more and I'm

852
00:50:11,516 --> 00:50:13,796
Speaker 6: open to exploring it now. So it's nice to do

853
00:50:13,876 --> 00:50:16,036
Speaker 6: it softly in that way, no words.

854
00:50:16,116 --> 00:50:17,076
Speaker 1: How'd you prep for it?

855
00:50:17,356 --> 00:50:18,316
Speaker 6: How'd I prep for it?

856
00:50:20,716 --> 00:50:21,036
Speaker 1: I didn't.

857
00:50:21,036 --> 00:50:26,436
Speaker 6: I didn't prep for it. It was all pretty like natural.

858
00:50:26,476 --> 00:50:31,396
Speaker 6: I mean, I come from a performance arts background. In college,

859
00:50:31,396 --> 00:50:36,276
Speaker 6: I had a company with a few other women where

860
00:50:36,316 --> 00:50:40,956
Speaker 6: we explored like dance and movement through silence and then

861
00:50:41,236 --> 00:50:46,316
Speaker 6: using our own bodies to compose sound for the pieces

862
00:50:46,316 --> 00:50:48,356
Speaker 6: like as they were going on. And a lot of

863
00:50:48,356 --> 00:50:52,916
Speaker 6: that practice was intense, like eye contact and staring into

864
00:50:52,956 --> 00:50:58,236
Speaker 6: each other's eyes and like understanding intimacy between dancers enough

865
00:50:58,276 --> 00:51:04,276
Speaker 6: to interpret each other's movements through through prolonged improvisation. So

866
00:51:04,316 --> 00:51:06,516
Speaker 6: it's like I have. I have like all of these

867
00:51:06,516 --> 00:51:08,436
Speaker 6: things in my life that have kind of prepared me

868
00:51:08,516 --> 00:51:10,956
Speaker 6: to show up and just like stare into a stranger's

869
00:51:10,996 --> 00:51:13,916
Speaker 6: eyes for six minutes in an elevator. It wasn't really

870
00:51:13,956 --> 00:51:16,236
Speaker 6: like a large task, And I didn't really care that

871
00:51:16,756 --> 00:51:19,236
Speaker 6: this is Kendrick because like I was raised to believe, Yah,

872
00:51:19,236 --> 00:51:23,916
Speaker 6: everybody's just a human being. So you know, I'm interfacing

873
00:51:23,956 --> 00:51:26,636
Speaker 6: with him as not as this person who's done all

874
00:51:26,636 --> 00:51:30,196
Speaker 6: of these amazing things, but just as another person. And

875
00:51:31,916 --> 00:51:37,156
Speaker 6: is something so vulnerable about sharing exchanging eye contact for

876
00:51:37,196 --> 00:51:39,316
Speaker 6: that amount of time. Doesn't matter who that person is,

877
00:51:39,716 --> 00:51:44,036
Speaker 6: you really have to just be there with them. So

878
00:51:44,156 --> 00:51:47,036
Speaker 6: I didn't feel like it needed much preparation aside from

879
00:51:47,396 --> 00:51:51,836
Speaker 6: you know, getting my braves redone and pulling up on time.

880
00:51:51,796 --> 00:51:52,796
Speaker 1: Making sure your own point.

881
00:51:52,876 --> 00:51:53,036
Speaker 4: Yeah.

882
00:51:53,756 --> 00:51:56,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's so you really that work in college

883
00:51:56,956 --> 00:51:59,996
Speaker 1: allowed you to feel like, allowed you to be ready

884
00:51:59,996 --> 00:52:02,956
Speaker 1: to because it's an interesting thing, like you're really having

885
00:52:02,996 --> 00:52:07,436
Speaker 1: to express something really only through body language, Yeah, which

886
00:52:07,516 --> 00:52:12,436
Speaker 1: is like that's a that's you know, way less tools

887
00:52:12,476 --> 00:52:14,916
Speaker 1: and you have available to you as a singer songwriter

888
00:52:15,076 --> 00:52:15,476
Speaker 1: or you.

889
00:52:15,436 --> 00:52:17,996
Speaker 6: Know, like kind of it's all the same it's all

890
00:52:17,996 --> 00:52:20,076
Speaker 6: the same, the subtleties with which I make the choices

891
00:52:20,156 --> 00:52:24,676
Speaker 6: to sing certain things, the same as how you show

892
00:52:24,756 --> 00:52:28,396
Speaker 6: up in your body and convey with like without words,

893
00:52:28,396 --> 00:52:32,476
Speaker 6: with just eyes and a few gestures. It's it's actually

894
00:52:32,516 --> 00:52:37,596
Speaker 6: all in the eyes most most storytelling.

895
00:52:37,476 --> 00:52:43,756
Speaker 1: Really, I think. So even before you take it to

896
00:52:43,836 --> 00:52:46,796
Speaker 1: the stage, like before you like so even in the

897
00:52:46,836 --> 00:52:50,316
Speaker 1: recording process, are you are you aware of your body

898
00:52:50,516 --> 00:52:51,076
Speaker 1: in that way?

899
00:52:51,676 --> 00:52:54,636
Speaker 6: Yeah? Well, with recording, I often when I sing, I

900
00:52:54,716 --> 00:52:58,076
Speaker 6: close my eyes because I'm so aware of my body.

901
00:52:58,516 --> 00:53:01,396
Speaker 6: I'm pulling it out of my body. And I'm not

902
00:53:01,476 --> 00:53:04,236
Speaker 6: performing from the sense of like being perceived or filmed

903
00:53:04,276 --> 00:53:07,636
Speaker 6: or watched, but from the perspective of trying to channel

904
00:53:07,676 --> 00:53:12,156
Speaker 6: all of that that that that aspect of our humanity

905
00:53:12,196 --> 00:53:14,796
Speaker 6: that can like watch ourselves from the outside in. And

906
00:53:14,876 --> 00:53:18,876
Speaker 6: I'm cutting that sense off closing my eyes, and I'm

907
00:53:18,916 --> 00:53:22,556
Speaker 6: projecting it inward in order to deliver it with my voice,

908
00:53:22,876 --> 00:53:27,236
Speaker 6: just my voice, kind of like concentrating the energy.

909
00:53:28,036 --> 00:53:30,716
Speaker 1: It's incredible. Just go back to your trajectory a little bit.

910
00:53:32,436 --> 00:53:35,876
Speaker 1: You had that weird experience with that label, and you're

911
00:53:35,876 --> 00:53:39,196
Speaker 1: in a weird contract. You eventually start making some independent music.

912
00:53:40,196 --> 00:53:45,676
Speaker 1: It sounds very different still from what you've just put out.

913
00:53:46,916 --> 00:53:53,076
Speaker 1: It was good thinking of like Sacred uh, Sacred Bowl, Yeah,

914
00:53:53,356 --> 00:53:55,676
Speaker 1: which is a really cool project, but it's really it's

915
00:53:55,716 --> 00:54:00,076
Speaker 1: just it's still not like was was is the music

916
00:54:00,156 --> 00:54:02,836
Speaker 1: you just made with Tether? Is that like was that

917
00:54:02,916 --> 00:54:05,436
Speaker 1: what you've been envisioning all along? Yeah?

918
00:54:05,596 --> 00:54:08,196
Speaker 6: Yeah, I remember with Sacred Bowl, I was really frustrated

919
00:54:08,236 --> 00:54:11,916
Speaker 6: because all these producers kept telling me that it was

920
00:54:11,916 --> 00:54:16,076
Speaker 6: too expensive to make music with live musicians. They're just like,

921
00:54:16,076 --> 00:54:17,956
Speaker 6: it's too expensive, it's too complicated, we don't have the

922
00:54:18,036 --> 00:54:20,716
Speaker 6: right room, and they're right, there are certain things that

923
00:54:20,796 --> 00:54:25,116
Speaker 6: you need to do that and we had, you know,

924
00:54:25,236 --> 00:54:28,916
Speaker 6: essentially a vocal boose at a closet and a bunch

925
00:54:28,916 --> 00:54:32,756
Speaker 6: of computers like in no money. So Sacred Bowl was

926
00:54:33,236 --> 00:54:37,916
Speaker 6: a beautiful product of a lot of hustle and grit,

927
00:54:37,996 --> 00:54:40,036
Speaker 6: Like we were just making music with what we had

928
00:54:40,996 --> 00:54:44,596
Speaker 6: and I'm proud of that. But my voice couldn't come

929
00:54:44,636 --> 00:54:49,076
Speaker 6: through because I was having to rely on these producers

930
00:54:50,396 --> 00:54:54,876
Speaker 6: to craft the sonics and the sound, and there was

931
00:54:54,916 --> 00:54:58,156
Speaker 6: so much in that collaboration that just got lost in translation,

932
00:54:58,556 --> 00:55:00,676
Speaker 6: and it didn't have enough room for my voice. There

933
00:55:00,756 --> 00:55:03,316
Speaker 6: was not I couldn't tell my stories how I wanted

934
00:55:03,356 --> 00:55:07,836
Speaker 6: to tell the stories. And when I was done with

935
00:55:08,076 --> 00:55:11,276
Speaker 6: Sacred Bull and I did that tour with Lendy Kravitz.

936
00:55:11,356 --> 00:55:15,316
Speaker 6: When I did the tour, I brought a band. I

937
00:55:15,356 --> 00:55:16,876
Speaker 6: was able to bring a band, and we did a

938
00:55:17,196 --> 00:55:20,156
Speaker 6: we did all rock arrangements of Sacred Bowl, and I

939
00:55:20,236 --> 00:55:23,636
Speaker 6: was like, I was freaking right. I was right, Like

940
00:55:23,676 --> 00:55:26,276
Speaker 6: the music makes sense in this context when there's a

941
00:55:26,356 --> 00:55:29,156
Speaker 6: band and there's room to like breathe and we can

942
00:55:29,316 --> 00:55:32,996
Speaker 6: like push and pull and like the songs themselves come alive.

943
00:55:33,356 --> 00:55:36,036
Speaker 1: Yeah, so much more. There was a live version that

944
00:55:36,076 --> 00:55:40,036
Speaker 1: you I don't know if you band camp, Yeah, and

945
00:55:40,076 --> 00:55:41,756
Speaker 1: it's it's very different from.

946
00:55:42,516 --> 00:55:45,476
Speaker 6: Yeah, like it actually it has yet life in it.

947
00:55:45,676 --> 00:55:48,676
Speaker 6: And that's when I was a shift to me. I

948
00:55:48,716 --> 00:55:49,876
Speaker 6: was like, yeah, I'm just not going to waste my

949
00:55:49,916 --> 00:55:53,396
Speaker 6: time with producer projects anymore. Like I I can't. I

950
00:55:53,396 --> 00:55:56,996
Speaker 6: can't exist on the grid. I cannot fit in the grid.

951
00:55:57,076 --> 00:55:59,316
Speaker 6: So everything that I do now it's free time. It does.

952
00:55:59,396 --> 00:56:02,676
Speaker 6: There's no metronome. The metronome is us. We got one

953
00:56:03,156 --> 00:56:09,716
Speaker 6: built in so we don't really need a metronome. And

954
00:56:10,756 --> 00:56:16,276
Speaker 6: was my first foray into producing from that perspective, like, Okay,

955
00:56:16,316 --> 00:56:19,676
Speaker 6: what if I just teach real musicians at the real

956
00:56:19,756 --> 00:56:22,596
Speaker 6: room the songs, and then we discuss our choices and

957
00:56:22,636 --> 00:56:24,556
Speaker 6: then we go in there, we take it a few times,

958
00:56:24,916 --> 00:56:27,916
Speaker 6: one track through, one take through after one take, after

959
00:56:27,956 --> 00:56:30,316
Speaker 6: one take, and whichever the best take is makes it

960
00:56:30,396 --> 00:56:34,396
Speaker 6: on the record. And that's that's how they've been doing

961
00:56:34,476 --> 00:56:37,596
Speaker 6: music for a long ast time until we had computers

962
00:56:37,596 --> 00:56:43,076
Speaker 6: and all this fancy stuff, and so even even there

963
00:56:43,156 --> 00:56:45,316
Speaker 6: was just then from that point a process of refinement

964
00:56:46,396 --> 00:56:50,196
Speaker 6: revival was like my first step in that direction. I

965
00:56:50,236 --> 00:56:52,636
Speaker 6: was still kind of finding my voice again after so

966
00:56:52,796 --> 00:56:59,716
Speaker 6: much trauma and psychological warfare and musically trying to find

967
00:56:59,716 --> 00:57:03,836
Speaker 6: my confidences as a as a producer, as a leader.

968
00:57:04,676 --> 00:57:08,316
Speaker 6: And by the time I got around to recording Surface Tension,

969
00:57:08,316 --> 00:57:13,036
Speaker 6: which we recorded at chendri La, that was like when

970
00:57:13,036 --> 00:57:16,876
Speaker 6: we really honed in on the sonic world, which was

971
00:57:17,076 --> 00:57:19,516
Speaker 6: just like the type of mic that we're going to use,

972
00:57:20,196 --> 00:57:21,836
Speaker 6: the type of room that we're going to be in,

973
00:57:22,276 --> 00:57:23,916
Speaker 6: the type of guitar we're going to use, and have

974
00:57:23,996 --> 00:57:27,076
Speaker 6: a mic on that guitar like bread and butter. Just

975
00:57:27,956 --> 00:57:32,796
Speaker 6: that kind of Minutia was the core, and then experimenting

976
00:57:33,516 --> 00:57:36,076
Speaker 6: on what can we fill the space with but very

977
00:57:36,076 --> 00:57:40,156
Speaker 6: tastefully so that was surface tensions experimentation. So by the

978
00:57:40,156 --> 00:57:43,876
Speaker 6: time we got to Tether and recording Tether, it was

979
00:57:43,956 --> 00:57:46,356
Speaker 6: like all of that was so honed in that when

980
00:57:46,396 --> 00:57:52,276
Speaker 6: we brought the band in it was like it wasn't easy.

981
00:57:52,356 --> 00:57:53,756
Speaker 6: There was still a lot of work and there's still

982
00:57:53,756 --> 00:57:56,916
Speaker 6: a lot of wielding and like talking to everyone crafting it.

983
00:57:56,956 --> 00:57:59,596
Speaker 6: But this but the between Jason and I, the way

984
00:57:59,636 --> 00:58:01,916
Speaker 6: that it was going to be recorded and engineered.

985
00:58:01,436 --> 00:58:02,956
Speaker 1: It was just locked.

986
00:58:03,116 --> 00:58:08,796
Speaker 6: Yea, yeah. The sound, the sound was found at that point.

987
00:58:09,276 --> 00:58:13,716
Speaker 1: I feel like your voice is first and foremost the

988
00:58:14,276 --> 00:58:17,916
Speaker 1: thing that's like, you know, wow. The arrangement for sure

989
00:58:18,076 --> 00:58:20,436
Speaker 1: is like the second thing that it's like, this is

990
00:58:20,836 --> 00:58:23,596
Speaker 1: beautifully arranged, you know, in the whorreas. I don't know,

991
00:58:23,636 --> 00:58:26,196
Speaker 1: that's so like I guess maybe people think about arrangements,

992
00:58:26,236 --> 00:58:28,836
Speaker 1: and people probably spend time arranging the records, but the

993
00:58:28,916 --> 00:58:32,556
Speaker 1: way this is arranged, it's just like it's it's really thoughtful.

994
00:58:32,636 --> 00:58:35,596
Speaker 1: You don't even notice it, but when you start trying

995
00:58:35,636 --> 00:58:37,276
Speaker 1: to pay attention to do it, you're like, it's really

996
00:58:37,316 --> 00:58:40,676
Speaker 1: smartly done. You know, it's so cool.

997
00:58:40,756 --> 00:58:41,076
Speaker 6: Thank you.

998
00:58:41,196 --> 00:58:41,796
Speaker 1: It's so cool.

999
00:58:41,836 --> 00:58:44,516
Speaker 6: Thank you. Yeah. It sounds like not as much work

1000
00:58:44,556 --> 00:58:47,076
Speaker 6: as people think it is. It's like it's a lot

1001
00:58:47,116 --> 00:58:49,756
Speaker 6: of me letting the people, choosing the right people and

1002
00:58:49,796 --> 00:58:52,476
Speaker 6: then letting them do what they do best. Yeah, that's

1003
00:58:52,476 --> 00:58:54,356
Speaker 6: the way I like to produce things.

1004
00:58:54,716 --> 00:58:55,916
Speaker 1: Why do it any other way?

1005
00:58:56,076 --> 00:58:58,676
Speaker 6: It's just easier that way. It's like, I don't I

1006
00:58:58,676 --> 00:59:00,596
Speaker 6: don't have all the knowledge. I'm going to go to

1007
00:59:00,636 --> 00:59:04,276
Speaker 6: the person who spent the last fifteen years learning their instrument. Yeah,

1008
00:59:04,396 --> 00:59:05,876
Speaker 6: not try and tell them what to do.

1009
00:59:06,036 --> 00:59:08,836
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you had a play drum stress my good

1010
00:59:09,236 --> 00:59:09,556
Speaker 1: love it.

1011
00:59:09,636 --> 00:59:12,676
Speaker 6: I am. He's my favorite drummer ever. He's actually ruined

1012
00:59:12,676 --> 00:59:15,156
Speaker 6: all drummers for me, because if abe isn't free, I

1013
00:59:15,156 --> 00:59:17,596
Speaker 6: just would rather not have drums.

1014
00:59:17,596 --> 00:59:23,596
Speaker 1: He's really good. He's a beautiful human. I want to

1015
00:59:23,596 --> 00:59:24,276
Speaker 1: play another song.

1016
00:59:24,436 --> 00:59:25,036
Speaker 4: You get.

1017
00:59:43,556 --> 00:59:43,996
Speaker 6: There's a.

1018
00:59:47,156 --> 00:59:53,556
Speaker 4: He CD in the corner over there, sharing the ground

1019
00:59:54,036 --> 00:59:54,516
Speaker 4: with the t.

1020
00:59:55,436 --> 00:59:56,956
Speaker 5: That's the saving.

1021
01:00:00,396 --> 01:00:08,516
Speaker 3: The surrounding boys and hunger than us there.

1022
01:00:09,596 --> 01:00:11,036
Speaker 6: Get on Die.

1023
01:00:11,516 --> 01:00:16,636
Speaker 3: I find it a different His spile of the movie.

1024
01:00:19,956 --> 01:00:21,756
Speaker 5: Crow is lying there.

1025
01:00:25,956 --> 01:00:30,476
Speaker 8: I dance three days I does three days.

1026
01:00:30,796 --> 01:00:34,996
Speaker 6: I died three days in the arms of my lover,

1027
01:00:36,516 --> 01:00:38,116
Speaker 6: and I met in the growing.

1028
01:00:38,396 --> 01:00:48,916
Speaker 3: Face holds onto my growing movie, and I deserve to

1029
01:00:49,316 --> 01:00:51,796
Speaker 3: rest in a California.

1030
01:00:51,276 --> 01:00:56,596
Speaker 2: Cum maid of my arms outstretched and my dreams reading

1031
01:00:56,756 --> 01:00:57,396
Speaker 2: from my.

1032
01:00:57,956 --> 01:01:01,356
Speaker 6: Live into the sheets.

1033
01:01:01,996 --> 01:01:08,956
Speaker 3: Instead, help me beyond choose.

1034
01:01:08,676 --> 01:01:14,356
Speaker 4: You lost surrounding son Ali, He's surrounding in a lamb

1035
01:01:14,636 --> 01:01:16,796
Speaker 4: that I deserted.

1036
01:01:20,516 --> 01:01:21,756
Speaker 3: For a better end.

1037
01:01:26,316 --> 01:01:30,596
Speaker 4: How does a better hand?

1038
01:01:37,036 --> 01:01:45,276
Speaker 5: You see? Hi, never learn.

1039
01:01:48,836 --> 01:01:50,116
Speaker 6: To be kind?

1040
01:01:57,076 --> 01:01:58,876
Speaker 4: But I hear you get used.

1041
01:01:58,636 --> 01:02:04,876
Speaker 3: To the pain, heart break again then again.

1042
01:02:09,796 --> 01:02:23,036
Speaker 8: H m hmmm mm hmmm mm hmm.

1043
01:02:26,876 --> 01:02:33,796
Speaker 4: I won't be heartless, so don't be hatless with me.

1044
01:02:35,236 --> 01:02:42,116
Speaker 4: I won't be Calns, so don't be callous with me.

1045
01:02:43,556 --> 01:02:50,156
Speaker 4: I won't be Carolins, so don't be carless with me.

1046
01:02:51,596 --> 01:02:59,836
Speaker 4: I won't be calds. S told me be Calas, who

1047
01:02:59,836 --> 01:03:09,476
Speaker 4: won't be heartins? So this is.

1048
01:03:15,356 --> 01:03:31,996
Speaker 7: Holy Calais. Son't hang me call is? How becaid.

1049
01:03:38,236 --> 01:03:38,596
Speaker 5: Fun?

1050
01:03:38,796 --> 01:03:44,876
Speaker 8: Be okay?

1051
01:03:45,836 --> 01:03:47,556
Speaker 4: How becad.

1052
01:03:53,756 --> 01:03:54,076
Speaker 1: Fun?

1053
01:03:54,316 --> 01:04:01,796
Speaker 4: Be fu?

1054
01:04:03,076 --> 01:04:38,236
Speaker 1: Be you me? This is a real magic in your

1055
01:04:39,916 --> 01:04:42,956
Speaker 1: This is a real magic in your performances. It's unbelievable.

1056
01:04:44,436 --> 01:04:49,876
Speaker 1: You mentioned briefly Leney took you on tour. Yea has

1057
01:04:49,916 --> 01:04:50,716
Speaker 1: he heard this record.

1058
01:04:51,756 --> 01:04:55,196
Speaker 6: Yes, actually, and when he got when we were in

1059
01:04:55,276 --> 01:05:01,636
Speaker 6: mastering process, I finalized the masters in his basement. Nice,

1060
01:05:02,076 --> 01:05:04,196
Speaker 6: so he has heard this record and he was listening

1061
01:05:04,276 --> 01:05:07,076
Speaker 6: to it and he just kept going, girl, what the fuck?

1062
01:05:07,556 --> 01:05:09,116
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1063
01:05:08,196 --> 01:05:10,556
Speaker 6: Yeah, after every song you're.

1064
01:05:10,476 --> 01:05:16,436
Speaker 1: Like, what the yeah, that's that's the right response. It's

1065
01:05:16,516 --> 01:05:19,116
Speaker 1: it's it's uh, you're like a body high listening, you know.

1066
01:05:19,156 --> 01:05:22,276
Speaker 1: And that's what I was experienced listening yesterday doing right now.

1067
01:05:22,556 --> 01:05:28,836
Speaker 1: It's incredible and it's so different from like that Lenny

1068
01:05:28,916 --> 01:05:32,716
Speaker 1: heard something in you Earth. I mean, it's so beyond

1069
01:05:34,276 --> 01:05:37,716
Speaker 1: You're so beyond where he found you. You know, the

1070
01:05:37,876 --> 01:05:41,596
Speaker 1: this is it's just like whoa. You know, it's the

1071
01:05:41,596 --> 01:05:46,316
Speaker 1: only intelligible thing I have to say. And then thank

1072
01:05:46,316 --> 01:05:50,236
Speaker 1: you so much for for for sharing by yourself and

1073
01:05:50,276 --> 01:05:51,756
Speaker 1: your music, and thank you.

1074
01:05:51,876 --> 01:05:53,756
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks for your question.

1075
01:05:54,036 --> 01:05:59,396
Speaker 1: Yeah. An episode description, you'll find a link to a

1076
01:05:59,396 --> 01:06:01,396
Speaker 1: playlist of some of the songs we talked about in

1077
01:06:01,436 --> 01:06:05,236
Speaker 1: this episode, and also to Anastasia's album. Be sure to

1078
01:06:05,276 --> 01:06:08,076
Speaker 1: check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast to

1079
01:06:08,076 --> 01:06:10,676
Speaker 1: see all of our video interviews, and be sure to

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Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod You

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Speaker 1: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record

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Speaker 1: is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help

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Speaker 1: from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you

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Speaker 1: love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to

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Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers

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Speaker 1: bonus content and ad free listening for four ninety nine

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Speaker 1: a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions,

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Speaker 1: and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,

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Speaker 1: and review us on your podcast app. Our theme Music's

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Speaker 1: back Anny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.