1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife, 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: conserving both. I'm your host, Lake Pickle. Today, I want 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: to talk to you about one of the most iconic 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: species in all of North America, bison or buffalo. But 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: we're going to explore their history in a place that 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: is often forgotten, the Eastern United States. It's mid April 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: and the sound that you're hearing is me and my 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: friend Jeremy French from the Southeastern Graslands Institute, hiking down 10 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: a hill towards a large flowing creek. It's slightly overcast, 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: but besides that, it's a beautiful spring day and the 12 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: vegetation that we're walking through is showing it. Wildflowers starting 13 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: to bloom, trees along the creek beginning to leaf out. 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: We even heard two turkeys gobble on our journey down here. 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: As we make it down close enough to hear the 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: fast flowing water of the creek that will eventually dump 17 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: into the Red River, we see what we came for. Man, 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: what a cool place. 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: It's cut through. Yeah, that's your bison trail. 20 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 3: Really, that's entirely open, not because anybody maintains it, not 21 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 3: because anybody's doing anything, but because it's a bison trail. Now, 22 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 3: as we get further down, you'll see where it gets 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 3: war in. 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: Now. I know what you may be thinking, bison trail. Okay, 25 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: he's in Yellowstone, he's in one of the Dakotas, or 26 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: he's out west somewhere. And to that, I say, not 27 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: so fast, because I'm in North Tennessee and now I'm 28 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: standing in a historic bison trail that has been here 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: for a long long time. 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 3: Told you you're gonna see anythink that someone busting a 31 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 3: bulldozer through it? 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so just straight up bison. 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: Trail, straight up bison trail. 34 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: So how do they know? Like, how how did somebody 35 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: determine that this was a bison trail? 36 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 3: So if we were looking at this one hundred years ago, right, 37 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 3: it would look different than it does today because we've 38 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 3: had more time of rain and less time of bison 39 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 3: a landscape. It looks more eroded and washed out. But 40 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 3: back in the day, these shoulders here would have been 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 3: much higher and more prominent. And then they mapped them all, 42 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 3: you know, they mapped all the bison trails of like 43 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: the Cumberland settlements, gotcha. And you know, just by the 44 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: surviving of those documents we haven't understanding. But also if 45 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 3: we looked with like lighter and stuff, we'd be able 46 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 3: to see much more like subtle topographal changes that we're 47 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: not seeing now because of our naked eye. 48 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: But this no equipment, you nothing. 49 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: It almost looks like a boat ramp. And when the 50 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: water is shallower, so use the water's pretty high right now. 51 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 3: You can see these rocks that are just just submerge 52 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 3: where the bison would have walked across. 53 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: And then feorded the river. 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 3: But they picked this spot in the river for you know, 55 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 3: you've got food resources on both sides. They get funneled 56 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 3: in by this giant cliff. You know, they've got nowhere 57 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 3: else to go. They're probably going north or south, you know, 58 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 3: between Nashville and the giant big barns. And they used 59 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 3: it enough that we can see it on light aar 60 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 3: we can see it as we're standing here today. 61 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 62 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: And then also it's in those historical Cumberland settlement books 63 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: and you can just see like the gentle slope, but 64 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: this would have been much more prominent, you know, probably 65 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 3: like your typical four feet knee deep. The challenging thing 66 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 3: is we're in a time of soil aggregation and soil degradation, 67 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: so as the water comes, it's pulling dirt off, it's 68 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: redepositing dirt elsewhere. 69 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: But no one put this here. 70 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: That is crazy. 71 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 4: Man. 72 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: As I stand here, my feet physically placed in the 73 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: middle of this bison trail, I can't help but get 74 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: the feeling that I'm standing somewhere ancient. The fact that 75 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: a group of animals that were around hundreds of years 76 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: ago left such an impact that a trail of theirs 77 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: can still be picked up on the bare ground today 78 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: is nothing short of wild to me, and in some 79 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: ways that sentiment alone is a perfect illustration of what 80 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: I'm after in the first place. American buffalo unarguably one 81 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: of the most iconic wildlife species in our country's history, 82 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: and while so much is known about them, I feel 83 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: like there's still much unknown, especially when you hone in 84 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: on the topic of bison in the East these days. 85 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: If you bring up buffalo in most settings, people automatically 86 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: think of the Western United States, which is not inaccurate, 87 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,239 Speaker 1: but it doesn't tell the whole story. Bison were here, 88 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: right where I'm standing, in Tennessee and all throughout the 89 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: eastern region, and I think they left a bigger impact 90 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: than most of us are even aware of. And that's 91 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: what I'm here to learn about. We'll return to the 92 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: Flowing Creek and buy trail later, but for now, I 93 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: really want to dig into the topic of bison in 94 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: the Eastern United States, where all they were, what type 95 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: of impacts they made on the landscape and early settlers, 96 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,799 Speaker 1: why we lost them, and what the future of bison 97 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: in the East is, if there even is one. To 98 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: help us get to the bottom of this, I track 99 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: down two sure enough subject experts. The first is Jeremy French, 100 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: who y'all have already met down along the Creek. Jeremy 101 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: is the director of ecological Restoration and Stewardship for the 102 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: Southeastern Grasslands Institute. He's also a botanist and has spent 103 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: ample time studying bison and their effects on the landscape. 104 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: The second is Chris Widge. Chris is a distinguished paleontologist, ecologist, 105 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: and archaeologist known for his extensive research on bison. To 106 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: start us off, I want to ask Chris what the 107 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: actual historic range of bison is. 108 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 4: That's a fun question, and then the follow up of 109 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 4: what's the range based on the fossils themselves. 110 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 5: But to start with the historical. 111 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 4: Range, you know, we've got bison everywhere from northern Florida 112 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 4: to you know, eastern Washington and Oregon, northern California, so 113 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 4: east west they're continental scale, their continental range. Some of 114 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 4: the earliest settlers, our earliest Euro Americans that were getting 115 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 4: into Virginia, they noted these forest cattle. So you know, 116 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 4: we don't know that their bison. We can't say that 117 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 4: they were They weren't cattle, but there weren't a lot 118 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 4: of cattle around at that. 119 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 5: Time, and there's very few other things that they could be. 120 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 4: And so we've got you know, pretty good historic ranges 121 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 4: east to west, coast to coast, and then from north 122 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 4: to south, probably talking northern Mexico to Alaska and and 123 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 4: and those places. So you know, we're North America writ large. 124 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 5: There's some kind of ecological barriers when you get. 125 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 4: Into the northeast and into eastern Canada, but they're everywhere. 126 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: Almost Okay, So we now know that the American bison 127 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: covered virtually the entire continent. But now I want to 128 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: kick it back to Jeremy to focus in on the 129 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: eastern United States. When you think about bison, I don't 130 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,239 Speaker 1: think people think about New York. I don't think people 131 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: think about the Carolinas. I don't think people think about Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, 132 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: and not just those specific states. But I want to 133 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: learn about those bison, what those populations were like, where 134 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: they were, what they lived on, how they traveled, how 135 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: we lost them. I know I'm covering a lot there. 136 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, So we've got records or evidence of bison spanning 137 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 3: anywhere from New York through the Carolinas to the Panhandle 138 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 3: of Florida, Georgia westward essentially, and then we have evidence 139 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: of a lot deeper history or longer term histories, and 140 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: not just bison, but multiple species and long time of 141 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: bison operating throughout the East. 142 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: Now that we know we have multiple records and evidence 143 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: of bison in the East, I want to dig into 144 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: that further. What exactly is this evidence that we have 145 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: and what do we know about timelines? 146 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: Understanding that the timeline and some of the evidence for 147 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 3: this is complex, right in that we can look at 148 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: cultural history or we can look at you know, true 149 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: scientific fact that we have like something to touch, right, 150 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 3: and if we go by like something to touch, it 151 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 3: would be about a thousand years ago at the mouth 152 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 3: of what is Dunbar Cave within Clarksville, Tennessee. Somehow bison 153 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 3: bones got deposited there, and then we were able to 154 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 3: discover those bison bones and then date back to roughly 155 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 3: when that would have been. So those bison bones dated 156 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 3: back a thousand years that would have been still our 157 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 3: modern bison. 158 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 2: There's tons of evidence. 159 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 3: In Tennessee and what we've called like the Upper mid 160 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 3: South for long kind of habitation of bison. We've got 161 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 3: extensive networks of historic bison trails that were mapped as 162 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 3: pioneers came west. There's plenty of evidence of Spanish and 163 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 3: French market hunters slaughtering bison in the Nashville Basin where 164 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 3: they discovered these essentially these licks or what they would 165 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 3: refer to as stamps, and they even talk about, you know, 166 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 3: there being so many bison in some of these, like 167 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 3: one refers to like Bletso or Manskerts lick, that they 168 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 3: would shoot these bison and they couldn't get off their 169 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 3: horse because they were so packed in shoulders shoulder, and 170 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 3: if they got off their horse, it would have gotten trampled. 171 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: So they have to like spend hours figuring out how 172 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: they're gonna get this bison that they shot without getting 173 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 3: off their horse or even like this is one of 174 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 3: my favorite factoids. What is now present day Nashville. Nashville 175 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 3: is a relatively new name for it. What it was 176 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: called was French's Lick and it was you know, discovered 177 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 3: by the French guy named Demambrian, and it was a 178 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: giant stamp what they called Bison Lick where these bison 179 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 3: and elk and deer would come to get minerals. Yeah, 180 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 3: they saw tons of bison there, they saw evidence of bison, 181 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 3: this animals. And then from that site they had this 182 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: spoken wheel kind of structure to the trails where out 183 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 3: from Nashville you have all these bison trails, and those 184 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: bison trails would have gone north to Clarksville where we're 185 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: sitting today, they would have gone south, they would have 186 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 3: gone to Manskers Lick and these these different areas with 187 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 3: grazing opportunities, and those exact trails became you know, wagon 188 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 3: trails and then eventually became. 189 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: Roads Yep, you heard that one correctly. Some of the 190 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: bison trails coming out of the Nashville Basin eventually became roads, 191 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: roads that are still in use today. How crazy is that, 192 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: particularly roads that became part of the Natchez trace. But 193 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: there's others And here's another twist. This isn't an isolated incident. 194 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: There's other states in the East with roads that can 195 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: be traced back to bison trails as well. I want 196 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: to kick it back to Jeremy to hear more about 197 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: bison evidence and timelines. 198 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 3: Many people hypothesize the idea that bison were only here 199 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 3: for a short period of time. And if we focus 200 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 3: south of the Ohio River and east of the Mississippi, 201 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: we have these gaps in data. We've got what we 202 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 3: had from Dunbar Cave from roughly a thousand years ago. 203 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 3: If we go further back for the east, about seven 204 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: thousand years ago, we have documentation essentially from a dig 205 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 3: site in South Carolina where they unearthed spear points and 206 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: they use this technique called crossover immuno electrophoresis, which can 207 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 3: identify essentially proteins, and then you can use those proteins 208 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 3: to identify what family they came from, and the family 209 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 3: that came from these proteins and spear points from seven 210 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 3: thousand years ago were bovid. The only native covid we 211 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 3: have to North America that would have been here seven 212 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: thousand years ago is our friend bison, wes and bison 213 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 3: or the buffalo. So there's a lot of hypothsis on 214 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 3: the fluctuation of bisons, right. But if we start looking 215 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 3: at other evidence or other information or what kind of 216 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 3: interests me the most. When early settlers settled the Nashville Basin, right, 217 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: there were many records of this plant species called running 218 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 3: buffalo clover or Trifolium stolenifrum. 219 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: Right. 220 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 3: This clover that called the tile white clover was both 221 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 3: present in French's Lick and other licks in the area, 222 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 3: and this area would be named clover bottoms. Right, So 223 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 3: literal place names being named after this plant species. If 224 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 3: you understand the life cycle of this plant species, they're 225 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 3: very short, they require grazing lawns, they require really unique 226 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 3: habitats within grasslands that the bison were created. As we 227 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 3: pushed bison out of the Nashville Basin, poof that species 228 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 3: pretty much blinks out right gone. There's a few small 229 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 3: population of different trifoliums, but not where we're talking about 230 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 3: all over the place, right, and it was very common. 231 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: And this is a clover, yeah, this is a clover species. 232 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: And there's multiple clover species that the. 233 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 3: Similar things happen to, so like Trifolium calcaragum, Trifolium kentuckyensis, 234 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 3: and some of these clever species are extinct in the wild, right, 235 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 3: So we had a bunch of them when we had 236 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 3: the bison here. The bison leave, boom, they're gone. There's 237 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 3: even more evidence and interest in the long term kind 238 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 3: of habitation of bison in the east, especially within the 239 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 3: Nashville basin. In this other group of plants called Paysonias 240 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: or bladder pods. So these blatder pods again very short, 241 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 3: short species. They need very short grasslands. The seeds of 242 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 3: many of these require that over winter the seed is 243 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 3: getting sunlight, so they need soil disturbance, and they need 244 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 3: to be right on top of the soil, and they 245 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 3: need grazing lawns. If they don't get those things, they 246 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 3: won't even germinate. If you drive up and down the 247 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 3: Nashville Pikes or the traces from Nashville to other places. 248 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: The places that we can still see these species exist are. 249 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 3: Generally in mode roadsides well years ago, no one was 250 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 3: out there on their John Deere, right. 251 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: How can you be sure? 252 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 3: So you start questioning, like, okay, how did this plant 253 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: species that evolved and takes a long time for a 254 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: plant species to evolve, evolved to occupy this niche here 255 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 3: east of the Mississippi Nashville basin. And you start, you know, 256 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 3: kind of plugging things together, connecting things together, and you say, well, 257 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 3: we must have large grazers. What large grazers did we 258 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 3: have in North America? It's pretty much bison. Right after 259 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: the Plyceis scene, It's pretty much bison. 260 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that. 261 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 3: Then creates this the deeper understanding of the ecology of 262 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: not only systems within Nashville, but systems in the east 263 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 3: that would have been grazing had grazing and browsing interactions. 264 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 3: And we think about early pioneer accounts, right. And one 265 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 3: of the issues here is that there's like a timeline 266 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: mismatchup the Spanish. I'm into Florida about the fifteen hundreds, 267 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 3: and that's when DeSoto takes this whole trip through Florida, 268 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 3: Georgia in too, you know, Alabamasippi, and then eventually dies. 269 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 3: The De Soto expedition never sees a live bison, But 270 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 3: they're in Georgia and they're in the Panhandle, and they're 271 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 3: in these different parts interacting with tribes, and the tribes 272 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 3: are feeding them what they refer to as the beef 273 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 3: or lebouf, which is, you know, the beef or they 274 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 3: often refer to as the beef, and they're seeing, you know, 275 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 3: like DeSoto rights that in Georgia, in one of the communities, 276 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 3: these tribal communities, he sees basically a European amount of 277 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 3: a bison school, you know, this this white bison within 278 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 3: in these areas where they talk about sitting on bison 279 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: robes when they're. 280 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: Meeting with chiefs. 281 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: But as these these kind of explorers and these pioneers 282 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 3: are pushing westward, there's a lot of interlaying interactions in 283 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 3: history which makes some. 284 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: Of these things challenging. 285 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 3: Keeps me open to this idea that that absence of 286 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because we don't 287 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 3: have a bone that's dated three thousand years ago, it 288 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: doesn't mean they weren't there. 289 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That's an 290 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: interesting line of thinking Jeremy. Jeremy is using a combination 291 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: of bison bone records, historical records, and response from native 292 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: plant communities to hypothesize a timeline of bison on the 293 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: Eastern landscape. But I want to be sure to give 294 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: the paleontologists a chance to weigh in on this subject 295 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: as well, because, to my surprise, Jeremy's and Chris's views 296 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: on this did not exactly line up. 297 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 4: I mean, the fact that we had bison around when 298 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 4: some of the first European explorers were moving out and 299 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 4: writing down notes that really tie into that bison record, 300 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 4: and I think it gives the impression that they are 301 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 4: well understood. However, that comes with the caveat that that 302 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 4: is the last two hundred. 303 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 5: Two hundred and fifty years, three hundred years, last few centuries. 304 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 5: As we go. 305 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 4: Further back in time, you get some really interesting patterns 306 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 4: in the bison record when you start zooming out to 307 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 4: kind of the thousand year time scale or the ten 308 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 4: thousand year timescale. That's where I've been very interested in bison, 309 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 4: and one of the things I found really early on 310 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 4: I mean, this was back when I was in graduate school. 311 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 4: I was approaching the archaeological record of bison in archaeological sites. 312 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 4: And I was approaching it because we had these very 313 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 4: good historic records, and I was thinking, I kind of 314 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 4: know how bison behave and that sort of thing. But 315 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 4: then we started getting into some methods and starting to 316 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 4: getting you know, whether it's ancient DNA. We're looking at 317 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 4: the chemistry of their bones and teeth as kind of 318 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 4: proxies for behavior, and all of a sudden, bison were 319 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,719 Speaker 4: mysterious again because they were doing things that you just 320 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 4: didn't expect them to do based on that historic record, 321 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 4: and they were in places that you didn't expect to 322 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 4: see them. If I have a bison bone in a site, 323 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 4: I know there was a bison there. There's some other 324 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 4: angles that we're starting to get into, whether it's you know, 325 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 4: DNA in sediments or proteins in blood residue on. 326 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 5: Stone tools or something like that. There's some other angles 327 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 5: that you. 328 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 4: Can get and one one of the really interesting things 329 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 4: that will pan out in the next couple of years 330 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 4: is that they don't all tell us the same thing, and. 331 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 5: That that we see that we see this. 332 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 4: Kind of situation in science, not just with bison, we 333 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 4: see it. That's also one of the things that's going 334 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 4: on with like the end of the place to scene extinctions. 335 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 5: You know, if you. 336 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 4: Look at data at one scale or in one place, 337 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 4: it tells you something completely different than in someplace else. 338 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 4: And the fun part the challenge is to figure out 339 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 4: how to make all of those stories right because they are, 340 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 4: you know, and that, you know, helps us limit the 341 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 4: number of possibilities a little bit too. So, you know, 342 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 4: a historic expansion of bison into the eastern US might 343 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 4: have just been flash in the pan. You know, they 344 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 4: might have just gotten out to Virginia and South Carolina 345 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 4: and in North Carolina just in time to kind of 346 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 4: get pushed back, to get hunted back. You know, we 347 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 4: might just be talking about a decade or two, really flashy. 348 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: Well, my mind goes to and I don't know if 349 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: this is even an answerable question. I keep going back 350 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: to that bison trail in Clarksville, Like how long and 351 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: how many bison have to go through that trail for 352 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: it to be for it to remain that long? 353 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 5: Is there anything very many? 354 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 4: To be honest, Yeah, I mean those they're such disruptive 355 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 4: animals and they're hurting animals, and it may not have 356 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 4: even been like a big herd. That's one of the 357 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 4: other kind of things about the Eastern bison that we 358 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 4: see is they don't seem to be present in the 359 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 4: giant herds that you see out west. It might be 360 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 4: a dozen, it might be two dozen, even in the 361 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 4: historic records. That's the general tendency is to kind of 362 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 4: have a smaller herd, but it wouldn't take them too long, 363 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 4: especially if they're hanging out in a more constrained area too. 364 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 4: So you know, they're going up and down between the 365 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 4: river and the upland the river and the upland they're 366 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 4: a grazing animal and herbivore that kind of moves where 367 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 4: it makes sense to move. So if there's a swale 368 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 4: or a less deep you know, entry in and out 369 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 4: of a valley or something like that, they're going to 370 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 4: prefer that. There's some landscape learning, you know that goes on, 371 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 4: and a bison heard too, so you know that, you know, 372 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 4: the older females are going to do what they learned, 373 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 4: a younger calves are going to learn it through the years, 374 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 4: and so there's some of those things going on to 375 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 4: the trail that you saw probably is just a few 376 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 4: hundred years old, but it's one of those things that 377 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 4: you know, if it's abandoned for very long, it goes 378 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 4: back to grass pretty quickly, at least on a palenthological timescale. 379 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 4: But Western Tennessee is also really interesting because we get 380 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 4: a fair amount of bison out there in the fossil record. 381 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 4: You know, it's not unusual to see them in the 382 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 4: in the creeks, in the streams and that sort of thing, 383 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 4: and we don't have a good handle on, you know, 384 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 4: the timeline of them, so we haven't done a lot 385 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 4: of radiocarbon dating on those bones, and to be honest, 386 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 4: not very many of them make it into museums. This 387 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 4: would be a call for more people to donate material 388 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 4: to museums because that's really, you know, the record, that's 389 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 4: the record that those of us that are thinking about 390 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 4: these things, we go to a museum. Otherwise we have 391 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 4: to go to like one hundred different people, and you know, 392 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 4: ninety of them are dead, you know. So the only 393 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 4: reason that we can begin to answer some of these 394 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 4: questions at the scale that we can is because we're 395 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: going into museum collections and dealing with basically one hundred 396 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 4: or two hundred years of people donating things for the 397 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 4: public good. So it's been really exciting to me as 398 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 4: an archaeologist and palaetologists to kind of chase down what 399 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 4: those differences are. You know, how are they different from 400 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 4: that iconic bulk at the top of the hill that's 401 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 4: that you know, watching the sun going down? And in 402 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 4: some places they are very different, and the Eastern US 403 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 4: is one of them. 404 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: So we have two proposed ideas here. Number one, bison 405 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: were only in the Eastern US for a short time, 406 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: a flash in the pan, if you will, maybe a 407 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: decade or two I did. Number two, bison were in 408 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: the eastern United States for thousands of years longer than that. 409 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: Which one is correct. I'll leave that up for you 410 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: to decide. What both Jeremy and Chris did align on 411 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: is that bison were one hundred percent present in the 412 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: eastern United States, and I'm interested in learning what kind 413 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: of effects they had. 414 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 3: One of my favorite things that is often talked about 415 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 3: by early settlers and pioneers coming you know, through the 416 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 3: Cumberland Gap and further east. They talked about these impenetrable 417 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 3: cane brakes, just like so bad that they'd have to, 418 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 3: you know, have their horse and wagon in the middle 419 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 3: of the creek to get through them. 420 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: Well, if you think about. 421 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 3: The ecology of these breaks, there's some interesting early observation 422 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 3: from like Bloodsoe's Lick where they come and they have 423 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 3: bison there and it's this lush meadow, and then they 424 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 3: pretty much shoot the bison out very quickly, and then 425 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 3: after they shoot the bison up, it explodes into this 426 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 3: impenetrallable cambridge. So there's evidence of that throughout the South. 427 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 3: And I'm not here saying that like there are no 428 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 3: cane breaks throughout the South, but bison would have been 429 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 3: a maintaining factor to those cane breaks and making them 430 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 3: manageable and have interplay with beavers and meadows in those 431 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 3: wet kind of Ryperian habitats that as soon as we 432 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 3: remove them they blew up. We see similar things with 433 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 3: you know, we talked about savannah restoration or grassland restoration, 434 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 3: where a lot of our eastern systems would have had 435 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 3: some level of grazing browsing interactions that when we remove 436 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 3: those bison from those system and we take the disturbance 437 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 3: of wallowing or hoof marks or these other interactions. It 438 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 3: changes the system. So the evidence on the landscape is 439 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 3: kind of all around us at times. 440 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: If you were to draw the east, how much of 441 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: the landscape today would even be inhabitable by bison. 442 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 3: Habitable by bison somewhere between fifty percent, you know, and 443 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 3: habitable is a debatable turn. You know, you can see 444 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 3: bison in forest at settings at times, but like the 445 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 3: true grazing lands that would have been utilized by bison, 446 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 3: somewhere between thirty and fifty percent in the east would 447 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 3: have been some type of open grassy ecosystem. 448 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: So like I often. 449 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 3: Hear, you know, bison experts talk about bison in the 450 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 3: east and they say, like, well, why would they be here. 451 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: They're not going to be grazing in the forest. 452 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 3: And they're coming at the bison in the east from 453 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 3: a bison standpoint. I come at bison in the east 454 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 3: from a different standpoint. I come from it from like 455 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 3: a botanical standpoint. I know, you know those systems and 456 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 3: my team knows those systems, and you say, okay, well 457 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 3: here here where they are, and it's like, well, that's 458 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 3: not a forested system. That would have been open woodland 459 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 3: or savannah that would have had elements McGregor eye and 460 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 3: all these grasses and the understory, and it would have 461 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 3: been great habitat for bison essentially, or these giant prairies 462 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 3: in the South. So a lot of the South could have, 463 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 3: you know, absolutely had enough you know, grass and open 464 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 3: grassy systems to support bison. 465 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's again, it's the story I feel like 466 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,959 Speaker 1: to do the story of bison here in the East. Justice. 467 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: It's pertinent that you understand how different the landscape looked. 468 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely, yeah, And I think it's it's interesting because myself, 469 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 3: as you know, grassland colleges, I come from it from 470 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: looking at those grassland interactions and historic habitat, historic ecosystems 471 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 3: of the East. And one thing is very evident to me. 472 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 3: We had millions of acres of prairies, just prairies in 473 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: the East. We had millions of acres of savannahs and woodlands. 474 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 3: We have multiple, multiple different types of grasslands. Beyond that, 475 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 3: to like grassland balls which would have been maintained open 476 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 3: by plecesne megafauna. Surely those balls also at some point 477 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 3: were graced by bison. And these are on the top 478 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 3: of the mountains in Appalachia, We've got you know, glades 479 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 3: and barrens and fens, and we have this huge, you 480 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 3: know grouping of open grassy ecosystems, including meadows that surely 481 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 3: would have had bison over time at different rates and periods. 482 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: And understanding that animal populations, especially bison, they tend to 483 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 3: ebb and flow right. They pulse like a heart, so 484 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 3: they would have expanded and contracted and expanded and contracted. 485 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 3: But when you look at the evolution of the plant 486 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 3: species here, it kind of lends to this idea that 487 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 3: I would encourage the listeners to really examine for themselves 488 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 3: and really think about that. Plant species don't evolve overnight 489 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 3: to occupy niches. And when we removed bison very quickly 490 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 3: from the east, we saw many plant species just disappear. 491 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: One thing that quickly became evident to me while speaking 492 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: to both Jeremy and Chris is that bison both have 493 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: tangible and obvious effects on a landscape. I heard bison 494 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: referred to as disruptive and ecological engineers, and that became 495 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: more and more obvious listening to Jeremy described the landscape 496 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: change when bison were no longer present. In fact, his 497 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: exact words were removed bison very quickly. And that's what 498 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: I want to learn about next. We know they were here, 499 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: we know they were impactful both historically and ecologically. So 500 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: how did we go about losing them? How did we 501 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: have an animal that was so impactful, that was in abundance, 502 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: How did we manage to pretty much push it all 503 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: the way out and forget about it? 504 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would you know, I would say that 505 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 3: bison are functionally extinct the East. That's something that you know, 506 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 3: I hope SGI can somewhat remediate someday, and we've got 507 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 3: some exciting projects around that. 508 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 2: But we think. 509 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 3: About the the early you know, explorers to this region. 510 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 3: This is many many times before statehood for a lot 511 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 3: of areas, or so if we talk about Georgia, you know, 512 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 3: really early on in their statehood, they enacted a law 513 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 3: and it might have actually been shortly before their statehood. 514 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: That killing bison became illegal. 515 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 3: The reason I bring that up is because these early 516 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,239 Speaker 3: like market for hunters, essentially market hunters came through and 517 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 3: they just slaughter. I mean, it's similar to the story 518 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 3: we see in the West where they were just killed 519 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 3: by the hundreds and thousand. They were very quickly killed 520 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 3: wherever they were in the east, so much so that 521 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 3: we often talk about like Daniel Boone referencing bison in 522 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 3: different places and his you know, travels. By the time 523 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 3: Daniel Boone got there, the French and the Spanish and 524 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 3: these other you know, English and had killed vast majority 525 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 3: of the bison, and like we're talking about, we're killing thousands, 526 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 3: you know, left and right, so that to see one 527 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 3: by that point became really rare. And as we kind 528 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 3: of came across the Cumelin Gap, I think as early 529 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 3: as seventeen fifty in Roanoke, Virginia modern day Renoke, Virginia, 530 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 3: this area is called Big Lick a seventeen fifty, we'd 531 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 3: killed all the bison out of there. Then we kept pushing, killing, 532 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: kept pushing killing, And I don't don't try and paint 533 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 3: the wrong picture, right because like this was was the wilderness. 534 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 3: But we absolutely killed out and pushed the bison further 535 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 3: further west and further west, and further west and further west. 536 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 3: Mostly before you know, a lot of these places fully 537 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 3: got settled out, you know, so people are coming and 538 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,959 Speaker 3: there's kind of multiple lines of evidence for like president Bison, 539 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 3: President President. 540 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: On the landscape. 541 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 3: So we've got maps, right, That's kind of a common 542 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 3: thing where the French, you know, explorers and trappers would 543 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 3: map map areas and they'd be call like western Kentucky, 544 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 3: they called like the place where the tribes go to 545 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 3: hunt the beef, essentially referring to bison. So that's really common. 546 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 3: But the most common evidence that we have a bison 547 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 3: in the east of the most common like historical documentation 548 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 3: with people killing them, right, And like I was rereading 549 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 3: Ted Blues book recently, just like super excited to talk 550 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 3: about bison again, and part of the in there they 551 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 3: have like a record from the Spanish whereas like we 552 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: killed six bison today and the next day we killed two, 553 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 3: and the next day we killed five, and the next 554 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 3: day we killed six, and they're going through and they're 555 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 3: killing these animals. It doesn't take long if you're killing 556 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 3: that many a day to really negatively impact a population, 557 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 3: and eventually, you know what becomes like the maps and 558 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 3: then becomes killing them references. We start seeing more references 559 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 3: of dead bison or bison boned, or more references talking 560 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 3: about their trails and stuff like that, because we've already 561 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 3: extirpaid advice and from the east by you know, the 562 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: mid eighteen hundreds, early eighteen hundreds. 563 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: Most of the time, like if you if you're having 564 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: a species of animal that's having a rough time today, right, 565 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: like like a population of an animal, game animal, whatever is, 566 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: it's under some sort of dress. It's normally tied to 567 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: some habitat degradation, habitat loss. Sometimes you'll have like a 568 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, like in white tails, you'll have like 569 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: a EHD outbreak or something. For a localized population. Uh, 570 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: you don't hear a lot anymore for it to be like, well, 571 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: why do we lose them? Well, we kill them. 572 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 5: Yeah. 573 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 3: What's always interesting to me is that, like if you 574 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 3: ask me the poster child for us killing species out 575 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 3: the majority of the public or the inspiracial public, they're 576 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 3: instantly to think about the passenger o pinsion. But bison 577 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 3: aer right there, like we really there is some like 578 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 3: habitat changes that would have happened with with settlers, you know, 579 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 3: changing areas. But really the big thing is we just 580 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 3: killed them, and we killed them in the east sometimes 581 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 3: you know, for food and for fur, and then when 582 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 3: we push them further west, we kind of just killed 583 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 3: them to kill them at times, and you know, there 584 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 3: was always kind of this idea that like bison or 585 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 3: migratory and the lack of understanding of the ecology at 586 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 3: that time. You can't really fault people, but they thought 587 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 3: like the next herd would come come down from you know, 588 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 3: the north or something like that. 589 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 2: Even in the east. 590 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 3: So there was like a fundamental misunderstanding the ecology advising 591 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 3: that they were thought to be migratory. 592 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 2: And they're not there. 593 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 3: They are roamers, right, So they may have a home 594 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 3: range of fifty miles or sixty miles, and they might 595 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 3: roam from grassland and grassland, but they're not truly migratory. 596 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 3: Like let's say a duck like a mallard that may 597 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 3: my migrate from Texas to Alaska, Canada. So you see 598 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 3: these fundamental misunderstandings of their ecology which may be contribute 599 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 3: to them thinking like, oh, we can just kill everything 600 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,959 Speaker 3: that's here because the next migration is gonna come. 601 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 2: We're gonna be good. 602 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll be fine. How many issues in wildlife or 603 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: habitat or any of that stuff comes from a lack 604 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: of understanding something all of it. How many wildlife conflicts 605 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: or issues with habitat loss can you think of that 606 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: can be simplified down to just a lack of understanding, 607 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: My guess would be quite a few. But I have 608 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: zero intentions of ending this episode on such a sad note. 609 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: If you called it earlier, Jeremy mentioned some exciting projects 610 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: around someday remediating the loss of bison in the East. 611 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: I want to hear Chris Whitgas thoughts on modern bison conservation. 612 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 5: I remember when I turned in my dissertation. 613 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 4: The first draft of my dissertation was all about bison 614 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 4: in Minnesota, in Iowa and South Dakota. 615 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 5: This was two thousand. 616 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 4: And six, and the first draft, you know, your professors 617 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 4: basically mark it up and write it up and everything. 618 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 5: And I had a conclusion chapter and I had another. 619 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 4: Chapter, and it was basically, you know, taking what we 620 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 4: know about, you know, some of these new ideas that 621 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 4: we're playing with, that we're exploring with bison in deep time, 622 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 4: What does that mean for modern bison conservation? What does 623 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 4: that mean for modern advice and management? I had an 624 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 4: entire chapter. I thought hard about this, and I had 625 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 4: a whole chapter on it, and my professor's basically exited 626 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,280 Speaker 4: out and they said, don't get into this. 627 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: Don't don't get into modern conservation. 628 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 5: Go there. And the nice thing is, now we are 629 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 5: going there. 630 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 4: You know, it's it's been ten, fifteen, twenty years, and 631 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 4: so now I'm getting people coming up to me or 632 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 4: emailing me and saying, you know, we're starting a bison 633 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 4: herd this place. 634 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 5: Do you know what's going on with bison here historically 635 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 5: or prehistorically? You know, are we talking about big herds 636 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 5: that are one hundred animals. 637 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 4: Are we talking about small cowcafe herds or something like that. 638 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:14,720 Speaker 5: What are they eating? 639 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 4: You know, do we need to think about, you know, 640 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 4: receding a prairie in certain species. 641 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 5: Do we need to worry about lots of woody growth? 642 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: You know? 643 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 4: So some of these really kind of on the ground 644 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 4: landscape level questions. You know, we we can kind of 645 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 4: at least add have some suggestions and say this is 646 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,479 Speaker 4: at least at the centennial to millennial scale, the scale 647 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 4: of hundreds to thousands of years. You know, this is 648 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 4: kind of the story that you have in your backyard. 649 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 4: And so if somebody wanted to, you know, talk about Florida. 650 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 4: You know, reintroduce bisonto a natural setting in Florida. You know, 651 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 4: we we probably have some data that we can throw 652 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 4: at that they are very adaptable animals and they're very happy. 653 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 5: Doing things what they do. They just want to do 654 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 5: what they do wherever they are, and so I. 655 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 4: Think that that's kind of the next place is to 656 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 4: kind of bring it all together. 657 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. See, that's where you're talking about bringing those two 658 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: worlds together. That's where my head's at. As a hunting 659 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: and conservation community. We've taken several species that were on 660 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: the brink of being wiped out and managed to bring 661 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: them back. I don't know how alone or a minority 662 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: I am in this, but I'm like just saying, bison, Yeah, 663 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: they're gone. Like, I'm not good with stopping right there. 664 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: If there's a way to restore some of that, like 665 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: I'm in. So, is there a future for bison in 666 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: the Eastern United States? I would say it's possible. It's 667 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: definitely not a closed door. I want to thank all 668 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: of you for listening to Backwoods University, and I want 669 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: to give a big shout out to Onyx Hunt for 670 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: making this podcast possible. If you enjoyed this episode, be 671 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: sure to come back for the next one, coming out 672 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: on June twenty third, because, believe me, we're just getting started. 673 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: But for now, let's close this episode out as promised 674 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: by going back to the bison trail down by the creek. 675 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to picture in my head. Man. That's cool. 676 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm standing somewhere ancient. I wish I 677 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: could have seen it. 678 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 2: Me too, me too. 679 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: Maybe you will one day. 680 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 3: Huh, that's right.