Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, and today we're
Speaker 1: discussing how to talk about money without fighting with doctor
Speaker 1: Sonya Louter. Okay, so, money fights are one of the
Speaker 1: most common and most damaging sources of tension in a relationship.
Speaker 1: Whether it's spending, debt, or mismatched financial goals, those arguments
Speaker 1: can quietly erode trust and connection over time. But here's
Speaker 1: the good news. Money doesn't have to be the thing
Speaker 1: that drives couples apart. When partners develop healthy financial habits
Speaker 1: and they learn how to communicate about money, it can
Speaker 1: actually strengthen the relationship. And that's why I'm excited to
Speaker 1: welcome doctor Sonya Luter to the show today. She's both
Speaker 1: a marriage therapist, she's a financial planner, and she leads
Speaker 1: the financial health and Wellness program at Texas Tech. She
Speaker 1: brings a rare research back to perspective on how couples
Speaker 1: can keep money from being a stumbling block and instead
Speaker 1: make it a source of teamwork. So, Sonia, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining me on the show today.
Speaker 2: Hi Joel, thanks for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. First question I ask everyone who comes
Speaker 1: on though it helps us get to know a little
Speaker 1: bit about you. Is you're trying to do the smart
Speaker 1: thing with your money, but you got to splurge a
Speaker 1: little bit in the here and now too. What is
Speaker 1: it that you're splurging on?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, life is short. We have to splurge every once
Speaker 2: in a while. I really love a good dinner, and
Speaker 2: I'm okay spending a little bit extra to have the
Speaker 2: better piece of steak or the perfectly paired glass of wine.
Speaker 2: It's just my absolute most favorite thing to do. The
Speaker 2: am Beyonce, everything is wonderful.
Speaker 1: I love a good dinner too. I will say, steak
Speaker 1: so expensive these days, right, I mean like it's I'm
Speaker 1: reading all about the restaurants having a tough time trying
Speaker 1: to figure out how to not raise prices too much
Speaker 1: and freak people out. But even if you just go
Speaker 1: buy a stake at the store right now, you're just
Speaker 1: shocked at how much it costs. It's enough to make
Speaker 1: a person go to chicken, isn't it.
Speaker 2: I don't know about that.
Speaker 1: I know I still love a good steak. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: talk about the cross section of finance and therapy. It
Speaker 1: still feels like this is something that's in its infancy,
Speaker 1: that combination of both of those, both of those things
Speaker 1: like what's your unit that space.
Speaker 2: Initially, Yeah, you know, I started in financial planning, thought
Speaker 2: I was going to be a financial planner, and I
Speaker 2: didn't really feel comfortable or even know how to have
Speaker 2: the conversation about emotions or stress or anything else with couples.
Speaker 2: Primarily was my interest, and so that's what drew me
Speaker 2: in initially. And I was one of the co founders
Speaker 2: of the Financial Therapy Association, and that was almost twenty
Speaker 2: years ago, and we're still as a profession, as a discipline,
Speaker 2: as a group of people trying to figure out what
Speaker 2: that really means to blend these two. So I think
Speaker 2: your question is spot on that humans in general know
Speaker 2: that money is a large contributor to their relationships, whether
Speaker 2: that's with their partner or their children, or their parents, siblings, friends, etc.
Speaker 2: And we don't really know what to do with that, Like,
Speaker 2: we recognize that it's an issue, and then we struggle
Speaker 2: with taking that next step. And there's a whole bunch
Speaker 2: of reasons for that, but a lot of it is
Speaker 2: we were never taught how to talk about money, and
Speaker 2: so it's scary to start that conversation, and for me,
Speaker 2: this has been my passion is to help normalize the
Speaker 2: experience for couples and families and friends to have more
Speaker 2: natural conversations about money.
Speaker 1: How does someone know if they need a financial planner,
Speaker 1: if they need a financial coach, or if they need
Speaker 1: a financial therapist. Like I love that experts exist in
Speaker 1: each of these different realms, but I think if you
Speaker 1: offer for the wrong person at the wrong time, the
Speaker 1: wrong professional, you might be paying for something you don't
Speaker 1: actually need. Maybe you thought you needed a financial planner,
Speaker 1: but you actually needed a therapist, You needed someone to
Speaker 1: talk to about your emotions or vice versa, or maybe
Speaker 1: you just needed a coach to help you with some
Speaker 1: like basic budgeting techniques. How do you think about which
Speaker 1: route people should go.
Speaker 2: I'm smirking because I don't even know that I agree
Speaker 2: with how you described each of those, even just ever
Speaker 2: so briefly. With the financial coach being somebody to help
Speaker 2: with the budgeting, I would see that more as a
Speaker 2: financial counselor so there are distinctions between each of these
Speaker 2: various things. So for me, a financial planner, if you
Speaker 2: want to go to them, you know that it's going
Speaker 2: to be an investment, an investment of your time, an
Speaker 2: investment of gathering all of the relevant information, an investment
Speaker 2: of making this commitment to something long term, and there's
Speaker 2: going to be a cost associated with it. So I
Speaker 2: think if you're going to go see a financial planner,
Speaker 2: you already have a really clear sense of what your
Speaker 2: financial goals are. You might not know how to implement them,
Speaker 2: but you have the goals and you're ready to take
Speaker 2: action on them. See financial planner. Super solid option there.
Speaker 2: Financial counselor was the one that I would go with
Speaker 2: for the coaching example that you gave. If you right now,
Speaker 2: perfect time to think about maybe coming off of holiday
Speaker 2: spending and you're getting all of your bills in the
Speaker 2: mail and you're just trying to figure out what to
Speaker 2: do next. Financial counselors are really helpful in that regard
Speaker 2: to help you get the plan in place. So maybe
Speaker 2: it's just the stress of overwhelming not knowing where to start.
Speaker 2: Counselor super great coach, I would say, is really good
Speaker 2: for the person who is lost and they're looking for
Speaker 2: some sort of direction. So maybe you don't know what
Speaker 2: the goals are, but you know you want to have goals.
Speaker 2: A financial coach could be super good for that. Just
Speaker 2: like when you're trying to learn a new sport, the
Speaker 2: coach is there to guide you and tell you this
Speaker 2: is how you do it. Yeah, same thing with financial coaches.
Speaker 2: Financial therapists are they're still pretty rare, as you said,
Speaker 2: And a lot of the existing financial therapists who are
Speaker 2: out there have some sort of training in mental health,
Speaker 2: and so maybe they came to the financial space from
Speaker 2: social work or marriage and family therapy, psychology, et cetera,
Speaker 2: and so they are going to be much better prepared
Speaker 2: to go backwards in time and address why is it
Speaker 2: that you're stuck right here? And I would say that's
Speaker 2: something that's unique to financial therapist, is that willingness to
Speaker 2: go backwards before going forwards?
Speaker 1: How often is that a problem for people? Right? Is
Speaker 1: is that something where you're like, man, most people would
Speaker 1: actually really benefit from seeing a financial therapist even though
Speaker 1: there aren't many out there, or do you think it's
Speaker 1: more of like more of a rarity. I'm guessing like
Speaker 1: the things the way we handle money often there's something
Speaker 1: from I know for me at least, like a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff from my childhood is exactly why I do
Speaker 1: what I do. I can clearly see that line, but
Speaker 1: a lot of people have a hard time seeing it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the same question could be asked, how many of
Speaker 2: us should be going to therapy? Probably everyone at some point.
Speaker 2: Everyone could benefit from it, right, just like everybody really
Speaker 2: could benefit from financial therapy. Just as you're saying that,
Speaker 2: there's pretty much nothing that I can think of that's
Speaker 2: a current issue that's not tied to a previous issue,
Speaker 2: So I would say there's definite advantages there. I think
Speaker 2: it's more of a willingness of if that's preventing you
Speaker 2: from taking future actionsolutely, it could bolster what you're already doing.
Speaker 2: But I would say the financial therapist is most critical
Speaker 2: when you continue to fail or you continue to struggle
Speaker 2: to get over some sort of barrier, and those are
Speaker 2: pretty I would I want to use the word extreme,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't necessarily need to be like over the
Speaker 2: top extreme. But thinking of situations such as a widow
Speaker 2: is coming to you as a for assistance in terms
Speaker 2: of what to do as the next steps. If that
Speaker 2: widow is struggling with just paying daily bills and getting
Speaker 2: to the office to have a conversation with you, or
Speaker 2: remembering to check in on zoom for the conversation. I
Speaker 2: would say that's a pretty good indicator that financial therapy
Speaker 2: could be helpful in that situation, because we can't even
Speaker 2: take that very first step to make the next step possible.
Speaker 1: She needs more personal finance literally literacy necessarily, she needs
Speaker 1: grief consultation. She needs someone to walk through what's happened precisely.
Speaker 2: Okay, somebody who's willing to slow down and have those conversations.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right, Jeel. And the same thing is true
Speaker 2: very often for big family conversations. So if you think
Speaker 2: of a family office, financial therapist would actually be really
Speaker 2: helpful there because there's a whole lot of dynamics going
Speaker 2: on with navigating the different relationships between the diads, the triads,
Speaker 2: et cetera within that family.
Speaker 1: You recently published a study about how people feel about
Speaker 1: their money versus how well they're actually doing. I found
Speaker 1: that really interesting because there's just so much lately about
Speaker 1: how just how people perceive themselves and then how they
Speaker 1: perceive the world around them, and there's just a lot
Speaker 1: of it doesn't always match up. A lot of people
Speaker 1: are like, I'm doing pretty good. The world's going to
Speaker 1: hell in a handbasket. What did you what did this
Speaker 1: study entail, and what did you find?
Speaker 2: This has got to be one of my current favorite studies.
Speaker 2: That's with a former student of mind, doctor Van Deen
Speaker 2: at the University of Wisconsin Superior, and a lot of
Speaker 2: this started from her wanting to measure financial wellness, and
Speaker 2: I said, Okay, well, I don't know that people are
Speaker 2: interpreting that the same way. So we put people into
Speaker 2: quadrants of I feel like I'm doing well with my finances,
Speaker 2: but if you look objectively on paper, they're not doing
Speaker 2: so great. And then if you kind of think of
Speaker 2: the caddy corner from that, we've got people who don't
Speaker 2: think that they're doing very good with their finances, but
Speaker 2: on paper they're actually doing really good. And then we
Speaker 2: have the people who think they're doing bad and really
Speaker 2: on paper it doesn't look so good. And then vice versa,
Speaker 2: people who are doing.
Speaker 1: Good, people who are living in reality, whether it's good
Speaker 1: or bad, right exactly.
Speaker 2: And I thought that was so useful because especially those
Speaker 2: two where they're not aligned, that's the problem right where
Speaker 2: people are not living in and it's equally as dangerous
Speaker 2: for people to think that they're doing well and then
Speaker 2: objectively not be okay because they don't even recognize the
Speaker 2: need to take action, and so we need to get
Speaker 2: some sort of information out there in front of them
Speaker 2: and really from the stages of change perspective, help them
Speaker 2: understand that their behaviors could be influencing the people that
Speaker 2: they care most about and that's not even on their
Speaker 2: radar at all. They think that they're doing okay, so
Speaker 2: why change anything. And I mean think about this in
Speaker 2: terms of maybe an aging parent and they're really helping
Speaker 2: out their adult children and maybe even their grandchildren because
Speaker 2: it's a nice thing to do and they want to
Speaker 2: be able to help them, and maybe what they're not
Speaker 2: realizing is the damage this is doing to their personal
Speaker 2: situation and potentially and not being able to support their
Speaker 2: own life through the duration of their lifespan. So in effect,
Speaker 2: they are going to have to be relaying on that
Speaker 2: same child that they're funding right now, instead of encouraging
Speaker 2: that adult child to take action on their own. So
Speaker 2: I think it's really helpful in terms of having that
Speaker 2: conversation of I know that you think you're trying to
Speaker 2: be helpful, but let's look at this objectively as well
Speaker 2: and see how this might be influencing you.
Speaker 1: How do you get through to someone who who is
Speaker 1: misguided even about the situation they're in. Like, I know
Speaker 1: some people who have a generous heart, and it's a
Speaker 1: beautiful thing, but sometimes it's to such an extreme that
Speaker 1: they're really harming their own potential financial future and they
Speaker 1: could create other difficulties inside of their family were they
Speaker 1: to follow through right on some of those desires that
Speaker 1: they have to be generous. Not again, this is like,
Speaker 1: I'm all for generosity, but there's a for some people.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's potential to be generous to a fault. So
Speaker 1: when someone is lacking understanding, I guess about where they
Speaker 1: fall on the spectrum. How do you get through them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Spot on. So these are what I would call
Speaker 2: the dangerous quadrant people. We are not on a good
Speaker 2: pathway here, and that person isn't even recognizing it at all.
Speaker 2: And when a person is not aware of the impact
Speaker 2: of their behaviors, it's what we might call a pre
Speaker 2: contemplation stage of mentality. And they're not even worried about
Speaker 2: changing anything because there is no problem, and you can
Speaker 2: give them all of the education that you would like
Speaker 2: to give them. It's going to cost this much for
Speaker 2: you to retire. This is how much long term care
Speaker 2: cost in case in the event that you might need that.
Speaker 2: Here's the cost of rising housing, etc. Etc. It's not
Speaker 2: going to be helpful because in their mind they're fine.
Speaker 2: So when a person is in that mentality of I'm
Speaker 2: fine when in reality they're not, it really is that
Speaker 2: extrinsic motivation that's going to be helpful and helping them
Speaker 2: see they talk to them about, Okay, well what does
Speaker 2: this look like for your daughter when she's fifty years
Speaker 2: old and you are eighty years old, let's say, and
Speaker 2: just try to help them visualize a different point in
Speaker 2: time with the people that they care most about. And
Speaker 2: the answer is obvious to you. But no point in
Speaker 2: this are you providing any sort of education or advice.
Speaker 2: It's simply helping a person see different points in time
Speaker 2: and the different people in their life and how they
Speaker 2: could be impacted by this behavior. And whenever you see discrepancies,
Speaker 2: then you can highlight it to where something like maybe
Speaker 2: they say, I just want to be generous and this
Speaker 2: is really important to me. You can say that back
Speaker 2: to it, and I'm like, yeah, I hear that you
Speaker 2: want to be generous and that's very admirable. Well, and
Speaker 2: I love that about you, and I'm very encouraging of generosity,
Speaker 2: just like you said. And let's think about what your
Speaker 2: generosity might mean for you whoever they just said your daughter,
Speaker 2: when you are entering into the retirement years, do you
Speaker 2: want to continue that generosity or are you going to
Speaker 2: have to decrease some of that generosity? And you're just
Speaker 2: helping them see those different points in time.
Speaker 1: There have been studies about the impact of financial stress
Speaker 1: on decision making capabilities. Oh yeah, how does that usually
Speaker 1: play out? And how can folks who are living closer
Speaker 1: to subsistence, like they don't have tons of extra money
Speaker 1: coming in, How can maybe I just think about how
Speaker 1: negative financial stress can be and it can reduce that
Speaker 1: what average IQUS reduced by like fourteen points or something
Speaker 1: if you're feeling constant money stress, So it really like
Speaker 1: in actuality, being stressed about money makes you less able
Speaker 1: to make good decisions. Do you have any advice for
Speaker 1: people like that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Biologically this is true and people try to fight
Speaker 2: me on this topic all of the time, But the
Speaker 2: reality is when you are under stress, your body goes
Speaker 2: into the fight or flight response mechanism. That's something that
Speaker 2: I think most people are familiar with. And when your
Speaker 2: body goes into that fight or flight response mechanism, your
Speaker 2: brain is making decisions based off of habit and emotion.
Speaker 2: They want to get away from the situation or fight
Speaker 2: through this situation that's based in front of them. And
Speaker 2: that's what makes financial stress so dangerous, is because people
Speaker 2: are not worried about the long term, and they're trying
Speaker 2: to do something now to prevent something in the future
Speaker 2: from happening when their brain can't even process the future term.
Speaker 2: And one of my favorite things about this is stress
Speaker 2: is so easy to measure, and that the fight or
Speaker 2: flight response physiological stress, not your perception of stress, the
Speaker 2: real life stress that's impacting your brain's ability to make decisions.
Speaker 2: And it's your skin temperature. You've heard the phrase, are
Speaker 2: you getting cold feet? It's the same thing. It's our
Speaker 2: The body's extremities get colder when we go into the
Speaker 2: fight or flight response mechanism. Do you know why, Joel
Speaker 2: uh No? Because the blood is going back to the
Speaker 2: heart to prepare for that physical reaction. And that's what
Speaker 2: I'm saying. We can't even stop it. This is biology
Speaker 2: at play. It doesn't look the same as it did
Speaker 2: hundreds of years ago. We're not physically running away, but
Speaker 2: we're definitely running away by pulling out our phone. You've
Speaker 2: seen it when you're out at wherever and there's a
Speaker 2: lull and activity and people just pull out their phone.
Speaker 2: It's like we don't even know what to do with ourselves.
Speaker 2: That's that's the automatic go to of I'm feeling kind
Speaker 2: of uneasy, let me just get out the phone and
Speaker 2: start looking at that. And it's the same thing people
Speaker 2: do with their mini I'm starting to feel a little
Speaker 2: bit uneasy. Let me just go get this thing to
Speaker 2: help me feel better.
Speaker 1: So part of the solution is being in touch with
Speaker 1: our bodies, yes, at least a little bit.
Speaker 2: Right exactly. And when you feel that your hands are cold,
Speaker 2: you can feel the difference between your hands being cold
Speaker 2: and warm. So ideal temperature we're looking for is about
Speaker 2: ninety degrees fahrenheit, which is warm to the touch, compared
Speaker 2: to seventy, which is closer to what mine is. Right now,
Speaker 2: that is a very noticeable twenty degrees difference that you
Speaker 2: can feel. And when you feel that cold hands and
Speaker 2: when your significant other. I think this is great for
Speaker 2: couples to be able to know what it feels like
Speaker 2: to be stressed. And if you are coming home at
Speaker 2: the end of the day and you're holding your partner's
Speaker 2: hand and you notice that they have cold hands, let's
Speaker 2: not waunch into a really deep conversation rate then it's
Speaker 2: not going to be helpful. Let's not go through our
Speaker 2: monthly budget right then. Instead, let's talk about what's top
Speaker 2: of mind. And I think it's a really great way to
Speaker 2: set up a conversation and make sure that all people
Speaker 2: are in the right mentality to be able to hear
Speaker 2: the information and take action on the information.
Speaker 1: You've also said, I've heard you say that money is
Speaker 1: never just about money, and I think that's true for sure.
Speaker 1: And I guess when you first start thinking about personal finance,
Speaker 1: it seems like math is the most important important thing
Speaker 1: to take into it. But I think over the years,
Speaker 1: I've come to believe that emotions trump math much of
Speaker 1: the time. So, but is there something it's how do
Speaker 1: we identify what's happening beneath the surface when we're thinking
Speaker 1: about how we treat money, or react to money, or
Speaker 1: react to even like a money decision that a spouse
Speaker 1: or partner makes, and doesn't this imply that all financial
Speaker 1: conversations are going to be so much more complicated than
Speaker 1: maybe they would seem like they should be at first glance.
Speaker 2: Definitely they are harder than they should be and need
Speaker 2: to be. It goes back to recognizing yourself. It's all
Speaker 2: about that self awareness. So it starts by tracking. And
Speaker 2: let's say you have a conflict, not an argument, but
Speaker 2: a disagreement with your significant other. Write it down and
Speaker 2: talk about what the content of that conversation was, but
Speaker 2: also talk about what came right before and what came
Speaker 2: right after it. And you're just journaling about this, so
Speaker 2: you might recognize that maybe the conflict was about you
Speaker 2: didn't tell me about this bill that we had coming up,
Speaker 2: but also the things that were surrounding it were things
Speaker 2: such as maybe that one of the children needed something
Speaker 2: for school and we weren't able to get that thing
Speaker 2: for school. So once you start to recking this, and
Speaker 2: then maybe the next thing you see is we had
Speaker 2: a conflict that I don't know, you spent excusage.
Speaker 1: An unexpected expense came right and I was I was
Speaker 1: flumb exed by it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Then I also noticed that in one month,
Speaker 2: we have a competition that we're going to for one
Speaker 2: of the kids. And as you start tracking these things,
Speaker 2: it's not obvious at the moment, but then I can
Speaker 2: start seeing that, Okay, I'm really having these maybe more
Speaker 2: reactive situations when there's also these events tied to my
Speaker 2: children going on. And so for me, what that represents
Speaker 2: is financial security for the next generation is really important
Speaker 2: to me. So I've identified a value, right and so
Speaker 2: it's not about you spent too much money without telling me.
Speaker 2: It's something else is more important to me right now,
Speaker 2: and I feel like you weren't listening to the thing
Speaker 2: that was important to me, and you're not going to
Speaker 2: be able to identify that when you're in that heightened
Speaker 2: emotional state. But you can start identifying the patterns yourself
Speaker 2: when you start tracking that.
Speaker 1: Well, it's often hard to know why, which is like
Speaker 1: why I think therapy can be helpful, But it's hard
Speaker 1: to know why we're reacting similarly on repeat right, over
Speaker 1: and over to similar inputs. So it might take somebody
Speaker 1: a while to be like, actually, the reason I'm reacting
Speaker 1: negatively to the way we spend money in that way
Speaker 1: is because I want to be thoughtful about saving up
Speaker 1: money for our kid's future. Like it's not like a
Speaker 1: straight line, and most people have a hard time deducing
Speaker 1: that that's kind of at the root of some of
Speaker 1: their actions or reactions.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you really pointed to something that is so important,
Speaker 2: and that's the systemic relationships that are at play. It's
Speaker 2: never a to be there's always some sort of circuit
Speaker 2: or A to B two C back to A two D.
Speaker 2: And when you're dealing with families, it's impossible. Like imagine
Speaker 2: all of our family members, all of our friends stacked
Speaker 2: up in this really neat domino pattern, and I go
Speaker 2: to knock over the domino pattern, and that has an
Speaker 2: influence on all of the other dominoes at play. So
Speaker 2: even though I might not be directly in contact with
Speaker 2: somebody within our family system, what they do with the
Speaker 2: money is definitely influencing me because it's influencing somebody else
Speaker 2: that I'm connected with, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2: And it's hard. There's no way that I could see
Speaker 2: how somebody else's behaviors are influencing me unless I'm willing
Speaker 2: to take the time and gather information and reflect upon
Speaker 2: what's going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so personal work that needs to be done, there's
Speaker 1: relational work that needs to be done across the spectrum.
Speaker 1: I have more I want to get through, specifically about
Speaker 1: relationships and how we can have healthier relationships so that
Speaker 1: we can make more productive decisions our money and have
Speaker 1: just better relationships in general. Get some more questions with
Speaker 1: you on that front. Right after this, we're back still
Speaker 1: talking with doctor Sonya Luder, and we're talking about healthy relationships,
Speaker 1: kind of talking about healthy individual relationship to money just
Speaker 1: a second ago, but let's specifically focus in on relationships
Speaker 1: and money just given kind of where we're at in
Speaker 1: the year. It's a fun topic to hit home on,
Speaker 1: and you have so much experience in this, doctor Sonya,
Speaker 1: But like, can you maybe tell me what are the
Speaker 1: biggest predictors of financial conflict in a relationship?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is funny coming from a woman, but this
Speaker 2: is science based and so cannot refute the data that's
Speaker 2: out there. This is not my personal opinion. This is
Speaker 2: multiple people contributing to this, and it's when the wife
Speaker 2: makes more than the husband that is such a strong
Speaker 2: predictor of money conflict even today, and that absolutely blows
Speaker 2: my mind that we could have these expectations about what
Speaker 2: a man is supposed to do and earn and what
Speaker 2: a female is supposed to do and earn. Maybe I
Speaker 2: don't realize that that's what's happening. But if you look
Speaker 2: at the data and you're not asking people what's contributing
Speaker 2: to your money conflict, you're looking at all of the
Speaker 2: other things that are going on in their life, and
Speaker 2: the thing that comes up is women making more than
Speaker 2: the husband more.
Speaker 1: Child and that's an issue. Why Why is that an
Speaker 1: issue for people? Is it? Because then it feels like
Speaker 1: the traditional chore sharing and kid toting cys is turned
Speaker 1: on its head.
Speaker 2: Or I mean, that's kind of the direction I was
Speaker 2: going with these expectations. So the data don't ask the why,
Speaker 2: we're just making assumptions from here. But what we do
Speaker 2: see quantitatively associated with this is that when women make
Speaker 2: more than their husbands, they are not doing less household work.
Speaker 2: They actually tend to do even more household work. And
Speaker 2: so I do think where you were going with that
Speaker 2: with these traditional gender role expectations, if you will, that
Speaker 2: is the conflict at play. So the man is supposed
Speaker 2: to be the breadwinner, and so if he's not the breadwinner,
Speaker 2: then perhaps there's this guild or some sort of emotional
Speaker 2: reaction for the woman that she's like, well, I better
Speaker 2: go ahead and do more of the household work because
Speaker 2: I'm messing up. I'm changing the dynamics of what is
Speaker 2: suppose to be. And I'm not saying that this is
Speaker 2: my personal belief or any one person's, but if you
Speaker 2: look at the data, that's what's happening. And again, this
Speaker 2: is current day issues. This is not fifty years ago,
Speaker 2: this is right now.
Speaker 1: It seems like that's a recipe for resentment, right like
Speaker 1: that if someone feels like they have to double down
Speaker 1: on home duties when they are also the primary breadwinner,
Speaker 1: that they're like, uh, I feel like I'm holding up
Speaker 1: this family solo, Like what's going on here? We need
Speaker 1: more of a partnership. And I could see that kind
Speaker 1: of eroding some of the relational dynamic between between a couple.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And when I've done clinical work, what I've
Speaker 2: seen is that couples don't necessarily see this pattern playing
Speaker 2: out because they got into the relationship with some sort
Speaker 2: of set of expectations that probably can from when they
Speaker 2: were growing up. But who knows. Maybe it was just
Speaker 2: convenient at that time that she did the laundry and
Speaker 2: he did the artwork, and that's what made sense at
Speaker 2: that point in time. And then as time progresses, maybe
Speaker 2: that set of expectations that they had at the beginning
Speaker 2: of their relationship doesn't always make sense later on down
Speaker 2: the road. And so I think that's why it's important
Speaker 2: to have these conversations, like maybe I used to manage
Speaker 2: the daily finances, but now it doesn't make as much
Speaker 2: sense for me. And there's no reason for couples to
Speaker 2: naturally have these conversations unless you schedule it. Nobody wants
Speaker 2: to talk about jobs that we have to do with
Speaker 2: in the house, and so being purposeful about tax time
Speaker 2: is a really ideal time because we're talking about money anyway.
Speaker 2: Valentine's Day also super fun time to talk about money.
Speaker 2: But whatever the timeframe is for people, for couples to
Speaker 2: schedule that time and be committed to it, I think
Speaker 2: is so important.
Speaker 1: How do you have that conversation without having a fight,
Speaker 1: Because I think some people hear you say Valentine's Days
Speaker 1: a great time to have to bring that up, and
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, Yeah, probably not. Maybe let's take avoid
Speaker 1: it so we can keep some peace, have a good
Speaker 1: time together, enjoy each other. And you're like telling them
Speaker 1: to have this conversation about really important issues that really
Speaker 1: could drive a wedge in between them. Yeah, or at
Speaker 1: least that's how some people feel, I think when.
Speaker 2: They hear that, Yeah, And I would say back, why
Speaker 2: are you going towards the negative because this is also
Speaker 2: a really beautiful time to talk about your future together
Speaker 2: and your commitment together. Yeah, And I think that's really
Speaker 2: what the framing is all about, and not focusing on
Speaker 2: what didn't work in the past, but what has worked
Speaker 2: and what we want to do more of. And that's
Speaker 2: from my therapy training, and that is a really big
Speaker 2: thing and I actually have another paper on that with
Speaker 2: the positive framing in the financial space, when you ask
Speaker 2: people to compare themselves if they're doing better off than
Speaker 2: their peers, they will subsequently answer questions any more positive
Speaker 2: view that they're using money for joy more frequently than
Speaker 2: if you ask are you doing worse off than your peers?
Speaker 2: And it's just one word different, better off worse off,
Speaker 2: And that does make a difference in terms of how
Speaker 2: people continue the conversation. So I would say Valentine's Day
Speaker 2: is actually a perfect time because maybe you're more generous
Speaker 2: with your compliments than what you are normally. Fantastic, that's
Speaker 2: going to set you up to have more positive conversations
Speaker 2: about the financial situation and your financial goals and what
Speaker 2: you're doing within the household that's working, and always stay
Speaker 2: focused on the positive and what's done is done. So
Speaker 2: let's leave that Beah, but what do we see for
Speaker 2: the future and make it more of that future focused
Speaker 2: goal setting.
Speaker 1: The people say opposite attract, right, and but that can
Speaker 1: that can in the early days of a relationship that
Speaker 1: can be really exciting, like, oh, I'm I'm kind of conservative,
Speaker 1: the other person's a little little out there. It's kind
Speaker 1: of it's kind of fun, right like, But but specifically
Speaker 1: in the realm of money, that can also create tension.
Speaker 1: I mean, in the further along you get in a relationship,
Speaker 1: it can also create tension on non monetary levels. But
Speaker 1: how should people think about that? Opposites attract mantra with
Speaker 1: how they handle money together. If you have, like I
Speaker 1: talked to somebody a while back about people being tightwads
Speaker 1: and spend thrifts and how how do you match the
Speaker 1: the reality that we both have completely different views on money.
Speaker 1: Some are like let's let's say forty percent of income
Speaker 1: or income and the other ones like we could die tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Let's let's throw caution to the wind, Like how do
Speaker 1: you manage that as a couple.
Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously it's a recipe for conflict, not disaster. But
Speaker 2: there is increase conflict when it is the spender and
Speaker 2: the saber, And you're exactly right, it's really exciting at
Speaker 2: the beginning of the relationship. And this is where those
Speaker 2: regular conversations come into play. As I said, at the
Speaker 2: beginning of our conversation, people don't even know how to
Speaker 2: start the conversation, so we tend to go into it
Speaker 2: with a bit of stress. When we're stress, we are
Speaker 2: reacting based off with very heightened emotions and based off
Speaker 2: of habit. So it's not a good time, it's not
Speaker 2: a good recipe to engage in a conversation. So I
Speaker 2: already know that if you're a spender and I'm a saver,
Speaker 2: there's probably some tension associated with that. And so let's
Speaker 2: come to this in a more relaxed state of mind.
Speaker 2: A regularly scheduled time. I'm not going to spring it
Speaker 2: upon you that I'm mad at you because you spent
Speaker 2: too much and we agreed we were going to save
Speaker 2: ten percent more this month. That's not helpful. But if
Speaker 2: we have a schedule time to where that conversation is
Speaker 2: supposed to happen, that's when people can set their emotional
Speaker 2: mindset and come to it in a much more stable mentality.
Speaker 2: What you said at the beginning of the relationship, or
Speaker 2: you use that phrase, that is also a really key
Speaker 2: thing in the literature from my research that the amount
Speaker 2: that a couple argues at the beginning of their relationship
Speaker 2: is even more predictive of later relationship satisfaction than how
Speaker 2: much they argue later on. Isn't that crazy? And even
Speaker 2: an increase in arguments not as important as how much
Speaker 2: they argued at the very beginning of their relationship. And
Speaker 2: I think that's pointing at some of these things that
Speaker 2: you're talking about that we didn't set the expectations of. Well,
Speaker 2: when we were dating, this was really fun to have
Speaker 2: the vendor saver. Now that we're living in the same household,
Speaker 2: not quite as exciting because we've got bills to pay
Speaker 2: and these other things that need to take priority, and
Speaker 2: so that early conversation pattern setting is super crucial. It
Speaker 2: doesn't mean if you've been in a relationship for a
Speaker 2: long time all hope is lost. Start now, early you start.
Speaker 1: The better going to take some intentionality is And I
Speaker 1: like that you said, like, yeah, having it on the calendar,
Speaker 1: having it, having a regular time where you talk about this,
Speaker 1: so that you don't have to bring it up in
Speaker 1: the heat of the moment, because it doesn't feel like
Speaker 1: there's another set aside place in space to have that conversation.
Speaker 1: If it's there, then you can address the issue on
Speaker 1: the preordained time right And in your opinion, is there
Speaker 1: like a right amount of financial transparency and communication or
Speaker 1: do you feel like every relationship is different? Should and
Speaker 1: maybe like, as you get more in tune with your partner,
Speaker 1: can you reduce the number of or just maybe shorten
Speaker 1: the time span that it takes to have those money
Speaker 1: dates or whatever. What does that look like? And what's
Speaker 1: your advice for people?
Speaker 2: I will say with one hundred percent certainty that relationship
Speaker 2: satisfaction is higher the more joint accounts couples have. That's
Speaker 2: not my research. Scott Rick's research it's really fantastic stuff.
Speaker 2: You can't have joint accounts without having full transparency. So
Speaker 2: I would make the assumption that full transparency is the
Speaker 2: key to high relationship satisfaction because you can't be hiding anything,
Speaker 2: and it creates the opportunity for forced conversations about your
Speaker 2: finances because I can't be doing my own thing and
Speaker 2: you doing your own thing from the same account. We've
Speaker 2: got to at least have some sort of conversation about
Speaker 2: what's going on to make sure that there's money in
Speaker 2: the account to do the things that are necessary to
Speaker 2: live and to do the things that we want to do.
Speaker 2: And so I'm a strong proponent of full transparency. I
Speaker 2: do think that couples should have the trust to be
Speaker 2: able to spend what they want to spend without having
Speaker 2: to check in with every purchase. Though, and people always
Speaker 2: ask me what the magic number is, Well, how much
Speaker 2: can I spend without telling my partner? I don't know.
Speaker 2: That's for you and your partner to actually talk about
Speaker 2: and have the conversation. It could be five dollars, it
Speaker 2: could be five hundred dollars, it could be fifty thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: It's a very relationship specific, but you've got to have
Speaker 2: that conversation with one another. So I don't think that
Speaker 2: transparency is the same as asking permission. I think it's
Speaker 2: a matter of we all need to know what's going
Speaker 2: on and feel comfortable with what's going on.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's more important to have shared financial
Speaker 1: goals or shared financial values? And which one of those
Speaker 1: is maybe like more predictive of long term relationship success,
Speaker 1: is like we view things the same way, or it's
Speaker 1: like we're trying to go to the same place.
Speaker 2: Definitely the values values. If we're not aligned on values,
Speaker 2: there's no way the goals are gonna come.
Speaker 1: To be okay. And then let's say sometimes there's also
Speaker 1: just a different risk tolerance down in couples, right. I
Speaker 1: know we heard from a listener recently who said, you
Speaker 1: know what, the financial advisor, Like, I wouldn't want to
Speaker 1: hire one. I feel like I'm good, but it's the
Speaker 1: way I keep our marriage happy. Like this is something
Speaker 1: and I just feel like if the stock market, you know,
Speaker 1: if we had a bear market next year, that there's
Speaker 1: chance that that could if we have an advisor, hey,
Speaker 1: it's okay, Like we can weather it because there's somebody
Speaker 1: you know on on our side and that my spouse trusts.
Speaker 1: But if I'm the one in control and we have
Speaker 1: a bear market, I might take the plane. So how
Speaker 1: do you think about third parties in involvement in your
Speaker 1: finances and how that can help or maybe even hurt
Speaker 1: your relational satisfaction.
Speaker 2: Both people have to feel comfortable with this person, and
Speaker 2: it goes back to the transparency. If I'm not willing
Speaker 2: to be transparent with a third party, it is going
Speaker 2: to create a bit of a triangle situation to where
Speaker 2: the person who feels like they can trust and be
Speaker 2: transparent with this person, they're getting a coalition to go
Speaker 2: against my partner because they're not having that same sort
Speaker 2: of rapport and trust with this third person. In general,
Speaker 2: that third person can be super helpful, and financial advisors
Speaker 2: absolutely play a role in couple's relationship satisfaction. I looked
Speaker 2: at that across multiple data sets, multiple wealth and income levels,
Speaker 2: and it stays consistent throughout that when a couple works
Speaker 2: with a financial advisor, not only are they more satisfied
Speaker 2: with their financial situation, we're satisfied in their relationship. And
Speaker 2: I think it's because that third person one forces us
Speaker 2: to have the conversation, and we're probably going to have
Speaker 2: a fairly calm conversation because we're probably not going to
Speaker 2: go in a full on fight in front of a
Speaker 2: third person. Unless that's a therapist, then you might that's true,
Speaker 2: but in general, but in general, they provide that safe
Speaker 2: space to say what's on your mind and have the
Speaker 2: scheduled conversations. And we all live busy lives and that
Speaker 2: time has been carved aside to talk about our money. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's a beautiful time to do it.
Speaker 1: You mentioned to the joint bank accounts, and I've seen
Speaker 1: those studies too, and it certainly seems like that's a
Speaker 1: really important predictor of relational success. And financial infidelity is
Speaker 1: one of those things that could be a massive problem.
Speaker 1: Like do you think financial infidelity where someone is maybe
Speaker 1: spending money in a way the partner has no idea
Speaker 1: about opening up a credit card in their own name,
Speaker 1: racking up debt, or bringing that into a relationship that
Speaker 1: they're just not being honest about. Is that on par
Speaker 1: with sexual infidelity And can that have the same ultimate ramifications?
Speaker 2: Yes, because it's not about the money, right, There's something
Speaker 2: else going on there that they're spending the money on
Speaker 2: or they feel like they can't have the conversation about it.
Speaker 1: And the same is true right of sexual infidelity. Oftentimes
Speaker 1: it's not about the one act, It's about how did
Speaker 1: we get drift so far apart that this felt like
Speaker 1: it was okay?
Speaker 2: Precisely, and so there's no way that if you discover
Speaker 2: this as a financial advisor, you're going to be prepared
Speaker 2: to guide to couple through that. That's why we have
Speaker 2: the financial therapist or the therapist to have those conversations.
Speaker 2: But I would say, if you, if you feel like
Speaker 2: you are in that situation, let's not be accusatory. Let's
Speaker 2: increase our financial conversations and come together and be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: what are we happy about? And how can we do
Speaker 2: more of those things that we're happy about?
Speaker 1: Or we got more to get to including I want
Speaker 1: to talk about shame and the role that it plays
Speaker 1: in our finances and how we might be able to
Speaker 1: undo some of the nefarious effects. I'm talking about that
Speaker 1: in more. In just a second, we're talking about doctor
Speaker 1: Sonya Luter Soddy. I want to I want to talk
Speaker 1: about shame. I feel like shame is one of the
Speaker 1: most underrated forces in the universe, and it is something
Speaker 1: that we just don't talk about very much, probably because
Speaker 1: we're a shame to talk about it, but like we
Speaker 1: tend to act and react so often out of the
Speaker 1: impulse of shame, whether it's a past money mistake that
Speaker 1: we've made, and it just like it just irritates us
Speaker 1: when we think about it, but like we haven't really
Speaker 1: been forthcoming with it, and so it just it eats
Speaker 1: away at us from the inside. What advice do you
Speaker 1: have for shining a light on the shame that might
Speaker 1: be driving our money habits and some of the communication
Speaker 1: that we do and have around money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you feel shame, it's normal, and you're just
Speaker 2: like everybody else. Even people who are supposedly good with
Speaker 2: money probably have some sort of negative feeling or negative
Speaker 2: memory associated with money because we're not taught to talk
Speaker 2: about it. And just think about a dinner party and
Speaker 2: if somebody asked you, oh, what sort of medications are
Speaker 2: you one, people would definitely tell you that information. Maybe
Speaker 2: not quickly, but somebody would say, and then everybody else
Speaker 2: would say And it's not that shaming to talk about
Speaker 2: those things. It's like, well, physical health is a part
Speaker 2: of life and I'm getting older and this is what's happened,
Speaker 2: and that's just kind of normal or not look down
Speaker 2: upon necessarily to have those types of conversations. But if
Speaker 2: you were sitting around the same dinner party and somebody said, well,
Speaker 2: how much money do you have in your savings account
Speaker 2: this year? Not a single person is going to speak
Speaker 2: up to.
Speaker 1: That crickets, yeah, or what's the worst money mistake you've made?
Speaker 2: And they're like, uh no, thank you. Yeah, yeah, But
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be that way, right, And what
Speaker 2: you see is very rarely reality, and electronics has made
Speaker 2: this so much easier for us to believe that what
Speaker 2: we see is true when in reality it's not. So
Speaker 2: I would say again it goes back to self awareness
Speaker 2: that when you hear your friends talking about their vacations
Speaker 2: or you see their post about these really beautiful things
Speaker 2: that they have, there might be some truth to that,
Speaker 2: and there's probably alternative truths that are not as obvious
Speaker 2: from that one snapshot. And so being okay with not
Speaker 2: knowing everybody's information and not making assumptions about everybody information,
Speaker 2: that comparison game gets usund to trouble every time. And
Speaker 2: that's where a lot of that shame comes from is
Speaker 2: we're comparing ourselves to where we think we should be.
Speaker 2: We're comparing ourselves to our neighbors, to our friends. So
Speaker 2: just taking a step back and practicing gratitude of what
Speaker 2: you do have and how you're happy with the direction
Speaker 2: that you're going, and if you're not happy with the
Speaker 2: direction that you're going, take steps to make it better
Speaker 2: for you, not compared to somebody else, but for you,
Speaker 2: what would bring you closer to your values.
Speaker 1: I think therapy is it's becoming obviously far more normalized
Speaker 1: in our culture, and I think there's a lot of
Speaker 1: good to that. There are also a lot of people
Speaker 1: listening who are like, it's so expensive, Like I tried
Speaker 1: to hire a therapist. It's like one hundred and seventy
Speaker 1: dollars an hour. Am I supposed to go once a week?
Speaker 1: That's like a car payment? So do you have any
Speaker 1: suggestions for somebody who's like, man, I really think I
Speaker 1: could benefit from doing some a deep dive with a therapist.
Speaker 1: What are maybe some ways that I could start to
Speaker 1: do some of that work internally and have a better
Speaker 1: emotional understanding of how I hand, how and why I
Speaker 1: handle my money the way I do without seeing a professional.
Speaker 2: Yeah, completely for free. You can start doing work right now,
Speaker 2: and part of that is practicing gratitude. So at the
Speaker 2: end of each day, just write down one thing on
Speaker 2: a piece of paper in your phone app. There's even
Speaker 2: app free apps you can download for gratitude journals. Write
Speaker 2: down one thing that you're grateful for, and you're going
Speaker 2: to see measurable improvement if you do that consistently. I'm
Speaker 2: pretty much every area of your life. Feel happier about
Speaker 2: your finances, you are physically healthier if you do this
Speaker 2: on a regular basis, relationships are happier, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2: And it's all totally free to do that. You don't
Speaker 2: need to pay a therapist, you don't need to dig
Speaker 2: into your past. It's just right now today, What am
Speaker 2: I most grateful for?
Speaker 1: That's such a simple suggestion, but it has such like
Speaker 1: power behind it, right. I think it's it's something that
Speaker 1: people might be like, oh, okay, I mean what else though,
Speaker 1: like give me something, give me something harder, or news
Speaker 1: I can use or something, But like, there is something
Speaker 1: so powerful about gratitude, and we just underestimate what it
Speaker 1: can do for us. Yeah, I'm curious to the specifically
Speaker 1: since you know, almost Valentine's Day talking to couples. You
Speaker 1: wrote a book called Love and Money and you offered
Speaker 1: guided exercise for couples to improve their financial wellbeing. Can
Speaker 1: you share one or two of the things you found
Speaker 1: to be most effective? And yes, specifically for the couples
Speaker 1: who are listening and they're like, I want to have
Speaker 1: a good conversation, like I want to start making progress,
Speaker 1: and doctor Sonya said that Valentine's Day was a good
Speaker 1: time to get started, So like, do you have any
Speaker 1: like good prompts for them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a cost associated with the book, but
Speaker 2: it's so low cost action of one conversation with a therapist,
Speaker 2: So good suggestion. The values bullseye is probably my absolute
Speaker 2: most favor activity because it sets the stage for everything
Speaker 2: else to come after that. So with the values bullseye,
Speaker 2: what we see happening as people go through an assessment
Speaker 2: to identify what their values are if they don't already know.
Speaker 2: So maybe it's financial security, maybe it's time with family,
Speaker 2: maybe it's physical health. And then once we identify what
Speaker 2: those values are, we put them on a bullseye if
Speaker 2: you can imagine a target and the thing that's most
Speaker 2: central to everything else, we put that right in the middle,
Speaker 2: and then we go out with three or four or
Speaker 2: five values that we have, and then we come together
Speaker 2: as a couple and identify where are we aligned or
Speaker 2: maybe where are we a little bit different, and how
Speaker 2: can we make a combined bullseye that reflects both of
Speaker 2: our values in a way that that we feel comfortable
Speaker 2: with as a team together. And then what we can
Speaker 2: start doing is we write out sticky notes of our
Speaker 2: financial goals or what we're doing with our money right now.
Speaker 2: So maybe we're spending five hundred dollars a month on
Speaker 2: some sort of membership that is not aligned with any
Speaker 2: of those values that we just wrote down, so we're
Speaker 2: not going to get rid of it right now, but
Speaker 2: we're going to put that goal off to the side.
Speaker 2: We're going to do this with all of our different
Speaker 2: goals and current spending that we're doing. And it's a
Speaker 2: really nice visual activity to start rearranging how you're spending
Speaker 2: your money and resources and time and how you might
Speaker 2: want to think about some of those things differently.
Speaker 1: I love that, And then yeah, it's so much easier
Speaker 1: to shift spending around when it's not for let's correct
Speaker 1: the mistake we've made of things where it's But when
Speaker 1: it's a positive association, it's like, here's our values. Our
Speaker 1: spending doesn't curally reflect that. Let's make our spending more
Speaker 1: reflect our valuies. I think that's beautiful. That's a great
Speaker 1: place to start, doctor Sonya. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining me. Where can how the money listeners find out
Speaker 1: more about you and what you're up to?
Speaker 2: Yep, first and last name dot com Sonya lud dot com.
Speaker 1: Lovely, we'll put it, put it in the show notes
Speaker 1: up on our side as well. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining me today.
Speaker 2: Thanks Jill.
Speaker 1: All right, So glad I was able to have doctor
Speaker 1: Sonya on today to talk about just kind of the
Speaker 1: emotional underbelly of money and how we think about it
Speaker 1: and just it loves starting off talking about individually what
Speaker 1: that looks like, but then really getting into the relational
Speaker 1: dynamics and money is it's typically like, like doctor Sonya said,
Speaker 1: there's something else going on under the surface, right, those
Speaker 1: money arguments they're never just about money. It's about misaligned
Speaker 1: values or it's about things that we haven't come to
Speaker 1: grips with individually, and there's just so much ability for
Speaker 1: us to make progress in our finances as a family,
Speaker 1: as a couple, as an individual when we do some
Speaker 1: of that work and when we're willing to open up
Speaker 1: the lines of communication together. So that was one of
Speaker 1: my big takeaways from this conversation was that you have
Speaker 1: to make it regular and you have to put her
Speaker 1: on the calendar, otherwise it's going to come out sideways. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's going to come out in the heat of
Speaker 1: the moment or at an inopportune time, and you're going
Speaker 1: to make that accusatory finger wagging comment where it's like, hey,
Speaker 1: you didn't hold up here into the bargain, you spent
Speaker 1: more than you were supposed to. You let the budget
Speaker 1: get out of control this month. And if it's in
Speaker 1: a predefined time and space, it's just easier to have
Speaker 1: that conversation. It's like, listen, I'm not happy right now,
Speaker 1: but you know, we got that money date on the
Speaker 1: calendar for Monday. We can just talk about it then.
Speaker 1: And it also, I think one of the things that
Speaker 1: she alluded to on multiple occasions during this conversation was
Speaker 1: that you should phrase things positively and when you phrase
Speaker 1: things positively, it just hits differently. And I think so
Speaker 1: often when we feel like our finances are out of
Speaker 1: control and that our relationship with money together as a couple,
Speaker 1: as a unit isn't running on all cylinders, it's it's
Speaker 1: really easy to start playing the blame game and to
Speaker 1: start saying things in a way that gets the way
Speaker 1: you feel across to your partner, but not in a
Speaker 1: way that's going to lead to positive action or good resolution.
Speaker 1: And I think she talked about just the one word
Speaker 1: difference in that survey question and how it made people
Speaker 1: respond differently, and I think that's true of how we
Speaker 1: talk to each other in those money during those money
Speaker 1: dates or as we're you know, kind of trying to
Speaker 1: come up with what our common money money values are.
Speaker 1: We can talk about the negatives, but we're likely to
Speaker 1: get worse outcomes and crappier responses. And yet if we
Speaker 1: do the take the opposite route and we say, let's
Speaker 1: think about what the future could look like, what sort
Speaker 1: of money goals do we have together? Like, I love
Speaker 1: that talking about the shared values then makes it so
Speaker 1: much easier to eradicate the spending, and maybe some of
Speaker 1: the misaligned ways that we are making money choices. It's
Speaker 1: so much easier to do that once you've had that
Speaker 1: values conversation and you have a positive look outlook going forward,
Speaker 1: then you can go back to the spending and be like,
Speaker 1: all right, that means like, clearly, based on our conversation,
Speaker 1: we're going to cut here, here and here right, great,
Speaker 1: and then guess what we get to funnel that money
Speaker 1: positively into these other directions that both of us have
Speaker 1: just agreed that we care about deeply. So doing some
Speaker 1: of that work I think can make a big difference
Speaker 1: in our ability to make money progress and just feel
Speaker 1: like we're on the same page, like we're communicating effectively
Speaker 1: with our partner, with our spouse, with our significant other.
Speaker 1: So yeah, just here's hoping that we can all avoid
Speaker 1: money conflict this Valentine's Day, enjoy our the person who's
Speaker 1: in our lives if you have one, and that you
Speaker 1: can have better money conversations using some of the advice
Speaker 1: that doctor Sony gave today. Thank you as always for joining.
Speaker 1: We'll put links in the show notes to doctor Sony's
Speaker 1: website and some of the resources that we mentioned today
Speaker 1: on the podcast. Until next time, best friend out