WEBVTT - Talk About Money Without Fighting w/ Dr. Sonya Lutter #1100 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.880 Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, and today we're 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:06.400 discussing how to talk about money without fighting with doctor 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:27.280 Sonya Louter. Okay, so, money fights are one of the 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.040 most common and most damaging sources of tension in a relationship. 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:35.640 Whether it's spending, debt, or mismatched financial goals, those arguments 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.120 can quietly erode trust and connection over time. But here's 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:41.680 the good news. Money doesn't have to be the thing 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:46.360 that drives couples apart. When partners develop healthy financial habits 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:48.800 and they learn how to communicate about money, it can 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.519 actually strengthen the relationship. And that's why I'm excited to 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.400 welcome doctor Sonya Luter to the show today. She's both 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.440 a marriage therapist, she's a financial planner, and she leads 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.959 the financial health and Wellness program at Texas Tech. She 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.640 brings a rare research back to perspective on how couples 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.520 can keep money from being a stumbling block and instead 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.880 make it a source of teamwork. So, Sonia, thank you 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:13.679 so much for joining me on the show today. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.039 Hi Joel, thanks for having me. Looking forward to the conversation. 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.600 Yeah, me too. First question I ask everyone who comes 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:22.479 on though it helps us get to know a little 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.199 bit about you. Is you're trying to do the smart 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:26.720 thing with your money, but you got to splurge a 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:28.840 little bit in the here and now too. What is 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:29.760 it that you're splurging on? 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.000 Absolutely, life is short. We have to splurge every once 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.559 in a while. I really love a good dinner, and 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.160 I'm okay spending a little bit extra to have the 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.920 better piece of steak or the perfectly paired glass of wine. 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:48.600 It's just my absolute most favorite thing to do. The 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.320 am Beyonce, everything is wonderful. 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.720 I love a good dinner too. I will say, steak 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.400 so expensive these days, right, I mean like it's I'm 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.280 reading all about the restaurants having a tough time trying 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:02.280 to figure out how to not raise prices too much 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:03.880 and freak people out. But even if you just go 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.160 buy a stake at the store right now, you're just 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.360 shocked at how much it costs. It's enough to make 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:09.640 a person go to chicken, isn't it. 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:12.000 I don't know about that. 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.119 I know I still love a good steak. Okay, let's 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.160 talk about the cross section of finance and therapy. It 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:24.480 still feels like this is something that's in its infancy, 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.520 that combination of both of those, both of those things 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:29.880 like what's your unit that space. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:35.000 Initially, Yeah, you know, I started in financial planning, thought 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:36.720 I was going to be a financial planner, and I 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:40.799 didn't really feel comfortable or even know how to have 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:46.240 the conversation about emotions or stress or anything else with couples. 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.000 Primarily was my interest, and so that's what drew me 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.400 in initially. And I was one of the co founders 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:58.040 of the Financial Therapy Association, and that was almost twenty 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:02.760 years ago, and we're still as a profession, as a discipline, 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.600 as a group of people trying to figure out what 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.919 that really means to blend these two. So I think 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:13.760 your question is spot on that humans in general know 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.919 that money is a large contributor to their relationships, whether 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:23.280 that's with their partner or their children, or their parents, siblings, friends, etc. 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.440 And we don't really know what to do with that, Like, 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.320 we recognize that it's an issue, and then we struggle 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:32.359 with taking that next step. And there's a whole bunch 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.200 of reasons for that, but a lot of it is 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.040 we were never taught how to talk about money, and 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:43.040 so it's scary to start that conversation, and for me, 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.760 this has been my passion is to help normalize the 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:51.640 experience for couples and families and friends to have more 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.040 natural conversations about money. 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.320 How does someone know if they need a financial planner, 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.200 if they need a financial coach, or if they need 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:03.680 a financial therapist. Like I love that experts exist in 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.080 each of these different realms, but I think if you 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:09.080 offer for the wrong person at the wrong time, the 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.800 wrong professional, you might be paying for something you don't 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:14.200 actually need. Maybe you thought you needed a financial planner, 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.520 but you actually needed a therapist, You needed someone to 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:18.760 talk to about your emotions or vice versa, or maybe 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:20.480 you just needed a coach to help you with some 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.400 like basic budgeting techniques. How do you think about which 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:25.600 route people should go. 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.640 I'm smirking because I don't even know that I agree 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.000 with how you described each of those, even just ever 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.320 so briefly. With the financial coach being somebody to help 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.359 with the budgeting, I would see that more as a 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:44.600 financial counselor so there are distinctions between each of these 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.719 various things. So for me, a financial planner, if you 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.120 want to go to them, you know that it's going 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:55.320 to be an investment, an investment of your time, an 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:59.919 investment of gathering all of the relevant information, an investment 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.000 of making this commitment to something long term, and there's 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.919 going to be a cost associated with it. So I 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.160 think if you're going to go see a financial planner, 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.200 you already have a really clear sense of what your 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.839 financial goals are. You might not know how to implement them, 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:16.800 but you have the goals and you're ready to take 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.920 action on them. See financial planner. Super solid option there. 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.920 Financial counselor was the one that I would go with 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:29.960 for the coaching example that you gave. If you right now, 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.680 perfect time to think about maybe coming off of holiday 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.680 spending and you're getting all of your bills in the 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.000 mail and you're just trying to figure out what to 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:44.040 do next. Financial counselors are really helpful in that regard 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.200 to help you get the plan in place. So maybe 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:51.520 it's just the stress of overwhelming not knowing where to start. 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.120 Counselor super great coach, I would say, is really good 0:05:55.160 --> 0:06:00.200 for the person who is lost and they're looking for 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.440 some sort of direction. So maybe you don't know what 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.840 the goals are, but you know you want to have goals. 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.840 A financial coach could be super good for that. Just 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.080 like when you're trying to learn a new sport, the 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.640 coach is there to guide you and tell you this 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.760 is how you do it. Yeah, same thing with financial coaches. 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.799 Financial therapists are they're still pretty rare, as you said, 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.760 And a lot of the existing financial therapists who are 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.960 out there have some sort of training in mental health, 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.120 and so maybe they came to the financial space from 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.679 social work or marriage and family therapy, psychology, et cetera, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.600 and so they are going to be much better prepared 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:45.000 to go backwards in time and address why is it 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.560 that you're stuck right here? And I would say that's 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.320 something that's unique to financial therapist, is that willingness to 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.040 go backwards before going forwards? 0:06:55.600 --> 0:07:00.719 How often is that a problem for people? Right? Is 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.719 is that something where you're like, man, most people would 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.320 actually really benefit from seeing a financial therapist even though 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.480 there aren't many out there, or do you think it's 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.880 more of like more of a rarity. I'm guessing like 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.840 the things the way we handle money often there's something 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.160 from I know for me at least, like a lot 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.920 of stuff from my childhood is exactly why I do 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.120 what I do. I can clearly see that line, but 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:26.640 a lot of people have a hard time seeing it. 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:30.440 Yeah, the same question could be asked, how many of 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:35.559 us should be going to therapy? Probably everyone at some point. 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.119 Everyone could benefit from it, right, just like everybody really 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.560 could benefit from financial therapy. Just as you're saying that, 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.920 there's pretty much nothing that I can think of that's 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.320 a current issue that's not tied to a previous issue, 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.960 So I would say there's definite advantages there. I think 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:57.760 it's more of a willingness of if that's preventing you 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:02.120 from taking future actionsolutely, it could bolster what you're already doing. 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.800 But I would say the financial therapist is most critical 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.280 when you continue to fail or you continue to struggle 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.200 to get over some sort of barrier, and those are 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:17.160 pretty I would I want to use the word extreme, 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.240 but it doesn't necessarily need to be like over the 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:26.040 top extreme. But thinking of situations such as a widow 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:30.680 is coming to you as a for assistance in terms 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.440 of what to do as the next steps. If that 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:42.800 widow is struggling with just paying daily bills and getting 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.360 to the office to have a conversation with you, or 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.760 remembering to check in on zoom for the conversation. I 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:52.440 would say that's a pretty good indicator that financial therapy 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.200 could be helpful in that situation, because we can't even 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.360 take that very first step to make the next step possible. 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.199 She needs more personal finance literally literacy necessarily, she needs 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.920 grief consultation. She needs someone to walk through what's happened precisely. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.280 Okay, somebody who's willing to slow down and have those conversations. 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.880 That's exactly right, Jeel. And the same thing is true 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.560 very often for big family conversations. So if you think 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:22.480 of a family office, financial therapist would actually be really 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.200 helpful there because there's a whole lot of dynamics going 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:31.280 on with navigating the different relationships between the diads, the triads, 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:33.040 et cetera within that family. 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.800 You recently published a study about how people feel about 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.080 their money versus how well they're actually doing. I found 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.720 that really interesting because there's just so much lately about 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.400 how just how people perceive themselves and then how they 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.360 perceive the world around them, and there's just a lot 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.360 of it doesn't always match up. A lot of people 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:55.760 are like, I'm doing pretty good. The world's going to 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.600 hell in a handbasket. What did you what did this 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.000 study entail, and what did you find? 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.720 This has got to be one of my current favorite studies. 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.040 That's with a former student of mind, doctor Van Deen 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:10.280 at the University of Wisconsin Superior, and a lot of 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:15.240 this started from her wanting to measure financial wellness, and 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.640 I said, Okay, well, I don't know that people are 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.679 interpreting that the same way. So we put people into 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:26.120 quadrants of I feel like I'm doing well with my finances, 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:28.760 but if you look objectively on paper, they're not doing 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.880 so great. And then if you kind of think of 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:36.000 the caddy corner from that, we've got people who don't 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.240 think that they're doing very good with their finances, but 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.839 on paper they're actually doing really good. And then we 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.319 have the people who think they're doing bad and really 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.640 on paper it doesn't look so good. And then vice versa, 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:47.520 people who are doing. 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.400 Good, people who are living in reality, whether it's good 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:50.920 or bad, right exactly. 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:56.160 And I thought that was so useful because especially those 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.640 two where they're not aligned, that's the problem right where 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.920 people are not living in and it's equally as dangerous 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.160 for people to think that they're doing well and then 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:09.040 objectively not be okay because they don't even recognize the 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.080 need to take action, and so we need to get 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.160 some sort of information out there in front of them 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.600 and really from the stages of change perspective, help them 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.760 understand that their behaviors could be influencing the people that 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.280 they care most about and that's not even on their 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.240 radar at all. They think that they're doing okay, so 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.320 why change anything. And I mean think about this in 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:37.439 terms of maybe an aging parent and they're really helping 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.360 out their adult children and maybe even their grandchildren because 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.040 it's a nice thing to do and they want to 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.000 be able to help them, and maybe what they're not 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.480 realizing is the damage this is doing to their personal 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:55.320 situation and potentially and not being able to support their 0:11:55.360 --> 0:12:01.040 own life through the duration of their lifespan. So in effect, 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.000 they are going to have to be relaying on that 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:09.720 same child that they're funding right now, instead of encouraging 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.280 that adult child to take action on their own. So 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.880 I think it's really helpful in terms of having that 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.840 conversation of I know that you think you're trying to 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.760 be helpful, but let's look at this objectively as well 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.240 and see how this might be influencing you. 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.560 How do you get through to someone who who is 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.480 misguided even about the situation they're in. Like, I know 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.760 some people who have a generous heart, and it's a 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.840 beautiful thing, but sometimes it's to such an extreme that 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:41.840 they're really harming their own potential financial future and they 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.040 could create other difficulties inside of their family were they 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.600 to follow through right on some of those desires that 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:51.520 they have to be generous. Not again, this is like, 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.880 I'm all for generosity, but there's a for some people. 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:58.199 Maybe it's potential to be generous to a fault. So 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.600 when someone is lacking understanding, I guess about where they 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.400 fall on the spectrum. How do you get through them? 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:07.800 Yeah? Spot on. So these are what I would call 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.760 the dangerous quadrant people. We are not on a good 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.480 pathway here, and that person isn't even recognizing it at all. 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:21.079 And when a person is not aware of the impact 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.880 of their behaviors, it's what we might call a pre 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:29.880 contemplation stage of mentality. And they're not even worried about 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.480 changing anything because there is no problem, and you can 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.480 give them all of the education that you would like 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:37.320 to give them. It's going to cost this much for 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.040 you to retire. This is how much long term care 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.959 cost in case in the event that you might need that. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:48.120 Here's the cost of rising housing, etc. Etc. It's not 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.160 going to be helpful because in their mind they're fine. 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:56.880 So when a person is in that mentality of I'm 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.240 fine when in reality they're not, it really is that 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.120 extrinsic motivation that's going to be helpful and helping them 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.720 see they talk to them about, Okay, well what does 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:13.840 this look like for your daughter when she's fifty years 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:18.600 old and you are eighty years old, let's say, and 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.280 just try to help them visualize a different point in 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.280 time with the people that they care most about. And 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.920 the answer is obvious to you. But no point in 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.160 this are you providing any sort of education or advice. 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.400 It's simply helping a person see different points in time 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.160 and the different people in their life and how they 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:45.200 could be impacted by this behavior. And whenever you see discrepancies, 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:49.720 then you can highlight it to where something like maybe 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.800 they say, I just want to be generous and this 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.400 is really important to me. You can say that back 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:57.880 to it, and I'm like, yeah, I hear that you 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:00.320 want to be generous and that's very admirable. Well, and 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.880 I love that about you, and I'm very encouraging of generosity, 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:10.280 just like you said. And let's think about what your 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:15.360 generosity might mean for you whoever they just said your daughter, 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.720 when you are entering into the retirement years, do you 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.040 want to continue that generosity or are you going to 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:27.600 have to decrease some of that generosity? And you're just 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:29.640 helping them see those different points in time. 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.720 There have been studies about the impact of financial stress 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.760 on decision making capabilities. Oh yeah, how does that usually 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:43.240 play out? And how can folks who are living closer 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.800 to subsistence, like they don't have tons of extra money 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.120 coming in, How can maybe I just think about how 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.160 negative financial stress can be and it can reduce that 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:54.920 what average IQUS reduced by like fourteen points or something 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.280 if you're feeling constant money stress, So it really like 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:03.480 in actuality, being stressed about money makes you less able 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:05.160 to make good decisions. Do you have any advice for 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:05.760 people like that? 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:10.840 Yeah? Biologically this is true and people try to fight 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.960 me on this topic all of the time, But the 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.800 reality is when you are under stress, your body goes 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.800 into the fight or flight response mechanism. That's something that 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.400 I think most people are familiar with. And when your 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:26.240 body goes into that fight or flight response mechanism, your 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.880 brain is making decisions based off of habit and emotion. 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.520 They want to get away from the situation or fight 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.480 through this situation that's based in front of them. And 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.880 that's what makes financial stress so dangerous, is because people 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.360 are not worried about the long term, and they're trying 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:47.360 to do something now to prevent something in the future 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:51.000 from happening when their brain can't even process the future term. 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.720 And one of my favorite things about this is stress 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.120 is so easy to measure, and that the fight or 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:03.360 flight response physiological stress, not your perception of stress, the 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:08.359 real life stress that's impacting your brain's ability to make decisions. 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.879 And it's your skin temperature. You've heard the phrase, are 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.360 you getting cold feet? It's the same thing. It's our 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:19.280 The body's extremities get colder when we go into the 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.040 fight or flight response mechanism. Do you know why, Joel 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.480 uh No? Because the blood is going back to the 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:29.000 heart to prepare for that physical reaction. And that's what 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.600 I'm saying. We can't even stop it. This is biology 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.320 at play. It doesn't look the same as it did 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.840 hundreds of years ago. We're not physically running away, but 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.600 we're definitely running away by pulling out our phone. You've 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.040 seen it when you're out at wherever and there's a 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.520 lull and activity and people just pull out their phone. 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.480 It's like we don't even know what to do with ourselves. 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:53.320 That's that's the automatic go to of I'm feeling kind 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:55.439 of uneasy, let me just get out the phone and 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.480 start looking at that. And it's the same thing people 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:00.280 do with their mini I'm starting to feel a little 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.639 bit uneasy. Let me just go get this thing to 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.720 help me feel better. 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:06.600 So part of the solution is being in touch with 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:08.879 our bodies, yes, at least a little bit. 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:11.879 Right exactly. And when you feel that your hands are cold, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.320 you can feel the difference between your hands being cold 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.720 and warm. So ideal temperature we're looking for is about 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:22.360 ninety degrees fahrenheit, which is warm to the touch, compared 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.720 to seventy, which is closer to what mine is. Right now, 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.119 that is a very noticeable twenty degrees difference that you 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.680 can feel. And when you feel that cold hands and 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.199 when your significant other. I think this is great for 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.280 couples to be able to know what it feels like 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:43.239 to be stressed. And if you are coming home at 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.360 the end of the day and you're holding your partner's 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.560 hand and you notice that they have cold hands, let's 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:53.440 not waunch into a really deep conversation rate then it's 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.320 not going to be helpful. Let's not go through our 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.840 monthly budget right then. Instead, let's talk about what's top 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.520 of mind. And I think it's a really great way to 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:08.800 set up a conversation and make sure that all people 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:11.240 are in the right mentality to be able to hear 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.560 the information and take action on the information. 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.520 You've also said, I've heard you say that money is 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:21.560 never just about money, and I think that's true for sure. 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.240 And I guess when you first start thinking about personal finance, 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:30.160 it seems like math is the most important important thing 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.840 to take into it. But I think over the years, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.879 I've come to believe that emotions trump math much of 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:41.280 the time. So, but is there something it's how do 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:45.399 we identify what's happening beneath the surface when we're thinking 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.960 about how we treat money, or react to money, or 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.280 react to even like a money decision that a spouse 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:56.719 or partner makes, and doesn't this imply that all financial 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.160 conversations are going to be so much more complicated than 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.840 maybe they would seem like they should be at first glance. 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:07.200 Definitely they are harder than they should be and need 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:11.159 to be. It goes back to recognizing yourself. It's all 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:15.920 about that self awareness. So it starts by tracking. And 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:21.320 let's say you have a conflict, not an argument, but 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:26.159 a disagreement with your significant other. Write it down and 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.439 talk about what the content of that conversation was, but 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.120 also talk about what came right before and what came 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.480 right after it. And you're just journaling about this, so 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:42.399 you might recognize that maybe the conflict was about you 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.760 didn't tell me about this bill that we had coming up, 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.640 but also the things that were surrounding it were things 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:55.280 such as maybe that one of the children needed something 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.440 for school and we weren't able to get that thing 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.560 for school. So once you start to recking this, and 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:03.199 then maybe the next thing you see is we had 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:07.320 a conflict that I don't know, you spent excusage. 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.520 An unexpected expense came right and I was I was 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:11.520 flumb exed by it. 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:16.480 Yeah, exactly. Then I also noticed that in one month, 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:21.080 we have a competition that we're going to for one 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.760 of the kids. And as you start tracking these things, 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.600 it's not obvious at the moment, but then I can 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:32.280 start seeing that, Okay, I'm really having these maybe more 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:37.320 reactive situations when there's also these events tied to my 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.920 children going on. And so for me, what that represents 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:46.440 is financial security for the next generation is really important 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:50.439 to me. So I've identified a value, right and so 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:54.199 it's not about you spent too much money without telling me. 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:59.160 It's something else is more important to me right now, 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:01.400 and I feel like you weren't listening to the thing 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:04.800 that was important to me, and you're not going to 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.840 be able to identify that when you're in that heightened 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:12.040 emotional state. But you can start identifying the patterns yourself 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:13.199 when you start tracking that. 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:16.960 Well, it's often hard to know why, which is like 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.080 why I think therapy can be helpful, But it's hard 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:24.800 to know why we're reacting similarly on repeat right, over 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:28.560 and over to similar inputs. So it might take somebody 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.240 a while to be like, actually, the reason I'm reacting 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:33.440 negatively to the way we spend money in that way 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:36.119 is because I want to be thoughtful about saving up 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.520 money for our kid's future. Like it's not like a 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:41.919 straight line, and most people have a hard time deducing 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.399 that that's kind of at the root of some of 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:46.679 their actions or reactions. 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:52.240 Absolutely, and you really pointed to something that is so important, 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:56.080 and that's the systemic relationships that are at play. It's 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.960 never a to be there's always some sort of circuit 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:05.040 or A to B two C back to A two D. 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:10.920 And when you're dealing with families, it's impossible. Like imagine 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.320 all of our family members, all of our friends stacked 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:19.080 up in this really neat domino pattern, and I go 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:22.800 to knock over the domino pattern, and that has an 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.560 influence on all of the other dominoes at play. So 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:30.960 even though I might not be directly in contact with 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:34.159