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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, and today we're

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Speaker 1: discussing how to talk about money without fighting with doctor

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Speaker 1: Sonya Louter. Okay, so, money fights are one of the

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Speaker 1: most common and most damaging sources of tension in a relationship.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's spending, debt, or mismatched financial goals, those arguments

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Speaker 1: can quietly erode trust and connection over time. But here's

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Speaker 1: the good news. Money doesn't have to be the thing

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Speaker 1: that drives couples apart. When partners develop healthy financial habits

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Speaker 1: and they learn how to communicate about money, it can

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Speaker 1: actually strengthen the relationship. And that's why I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: welcome doctor Sonya Luter to the show today. She's both

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Speaker 1: a marriage therapist, she's a financial planner, and she leads

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Speaker 1: the financial health and Wellness program at Texas Tech. She

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Speaker 1: brings a rare research back to perspective on how couples

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Speaker 1: can keep money from being a stumbling block and instead

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Speaker 1: make it a source of teamwork. So, Sonia, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me on the show today.

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Speaker 2: Hi Joel, thanks for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. First question I ask everyone who comes

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Speaker 1: on though it helps us get to know a little

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Speaker 1: bit about you. Is you're trying to do the smart

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Speaker 1: thing with your money, but you got to splurge a

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Speaker 1: little bit in the here and now too. What is

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Speaker 1: it that you're splurging on?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, life is short. We have to splurge every once

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Speaker 2: in a while. I really love a good dinner, and

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Speaker 2: I'm okay spending a little bit extra to have the

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Speaker 2: better piece of steak or the perfectly paired glass of wine.

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Speaker 2: It's just my absolute most favorite thing to do. The

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Speaker 2: am Beyonce, everything is wonderful.

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Speaker 1: I love a good dinner too. I will say, steak

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Speaker 1: so expensive these days, right, I mean like it's I'm

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Speaker 1: reading all about the restaurants having a tough time trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to not raise prices too much

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Speaker 1: and freak people out. But even if you just go

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Speaker 1: buy a stake at the store right now, you're just

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Speaker 1: shocked at how much it costs. It's enough to make

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Speaker 1: a person go to chicken, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that.

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Speaker 1: I know I still love a good steak. Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about the cross section of finance and therapy. It

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Speaker 1: still feels like this is something that's in its infancy,

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Speaker 1: that combination of both of those, both of those things

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Speaker 1: like what's your unit that space.

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Speaker 2: Initially, Yeah, you know, I started in financial planning, thought

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Speaker 2: I was going to be a financial planner, and I

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Speaker 2: didn't really feel comfortable or even know how to have

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Speaker 2: the conversation about emotions or stress or anything else with couples.

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Speaker 2: Primarily was my interest, and so that's what drew me

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Speaker 2: in initially. And I was one of the co founders

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Speaker 2: of the Financial Therapy Association, and that was almost twenty

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Speaker 2: years ago, and we're still as a profession, as a discipline,

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Speaker 2: as a group of people trying to figure out what

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Speaker 2: that really means to blend these two. So I think

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Speaker 2: your question is spot on that humans in general know

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Speaker 2: that money is a large contributor to their relationships, whether

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Speaker 2: that's with their partner or their children, or their parents, siblings, friends, etc.

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Speaker 2: And we don't really know what to do with that, Like,

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Speaker 2: we recognize that it's an issue, and then we struggle

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Speaker 2: with taking that next step. And there's a whole bunch

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Speaker 2: of reasons for that, but a lot of it is

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Speaker 2: we were never taught how to talk about money, and

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Speaker 2: so it's scary to start that conversation, and for me,

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Speaker 2: this has been my passion is to help normalize the

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Speaker 2: experience for couples and families and friends to have more

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Speaker 2: natural conversations about money.

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Speaker 1: How does someone know if they need a financial planner,

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Speaker 1: if they need a financial coach, or if they need

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Speaker 1: a financial therapist. Like I love that experts exist in

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Speaker 1: each of these different realms, but I think if you

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Speaker 1: offer for the wrong person at the wrong time, the

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Speaker 1: wrong professional, you might be paying for something you don't

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Speaker 1: actually need. Maybe you thought you needed a financial planner,

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Speaker 1: but you actually needed a therapist, You needed someone to

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Speaker 1: talk to about your emotions or vice versa, or maybe

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Speaker 1: you just needed a coach to help you with some

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Speaker 1: like basic budgeting techniques. How do you think about which

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Speaker 1: route people should go.

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Speaker 2: I'm smirking because I don't even know that I agree

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Speaker 2: with how you described each of those, even just ever

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Speaker 2: so briefly. With the financial coach being somebody to help

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Speaker 2: with the budgeting, I would see that more as a

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Speaker 2: financial counselor so there are distinctions between each of these

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Speaker 2: various things. So for me, a financial planner, if you

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Speaker 2: want to go to them, you know that it's going

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Speaker 2: to be an investment, an investment of your time, an

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Speaker 2: investment of gathering all of the relevant information, an investment

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Speaker 2: of making this commitment to something long term, and there's

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Speaker 2: going to be a cost associated with it. So I

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Speaker 2: think if you're going to go see a financial planner,

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Speaker 2: you already have a really clear sense of what your

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Speaker 2: financial goals are. You might not know how to implement them,

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Speaker 2: but you have the goals and you're ready to take

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Speaker 2: action on them. See financial planner. Super solid option there.

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Speaker 2: Financial counselor was the one that I would go with

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Speaker 2: for the coaching example that you gave. If you right now,

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Speaker 2: perfect time to think about maybe coming off of holiday

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Speaker 2: spending and you're getting all of your bills in the

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Speaker 2: mail and you're just trying to figure out what to

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Speaker 2: do next. Financial counselors are really helpful in that regard

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Speaker 2: to help you get the plan in place. So maybe

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Speaker 2: it's just the stress of overwhelming not knowing where to start.

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Speaker 2: Counselor super great coach, I would say, is really good

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Speaker 2: for the person who is lost and they're looking for

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Speaker 2: some sort of direction. So maybe you don't know what

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Speaker 2: the goals are, but you know you want to have goals.

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Speaker 2: A financial coach could be super good for that. Just

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Speaker 2: like when you're trying to learn a new sport, the

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Speaker 2: coach is there to guide you and tell you this

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Speaker 2: is how you do it. Yeah, same thing with financial coaches.

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Speaker 2: Financial therapists are they're still pretty rare, as you said,

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Speaker 2: And a lot of the existing financial therapists who are

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Speaker 2: out there have some sort of training in mental health,

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Speaker 2: and so maybe they came to the financial space from

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Speaker 2: social work or marriage and family therapy, psychology, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: and so they are going to be much better prepared

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Speaker 2: to go backwards in time and address why is it

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Speaker 2: that you're stuck right here? And I would say that's

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Speaker 2: something that's unique to financial therapist, is that willingness to

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Speaker 2: go backwards before going forwards?

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Speaker 1: How often is that a problem for people? Right? Is

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Speaker 1: is that something where you're like, man, most people would

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Speaker 1: actually really benefit from seeing a financial therapist even though

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Speaker 1: there aren't many out there, or do you think it's

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Speaker 1: more of like more of a rarity. I'm guessing like

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Speaker 1: the things the way we handle money often there's something

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Speaker 1: from I know for me at least, like a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff from my childhood is exactly why I do

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Speaker 1: what I do. I can clearly see that line, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of people have a hard time seeing it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the same question could be asked, how many of

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Speaker 2: us should be going to therapy? Probably everyone at some point.

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Speaker 2: Everyone could benefit from it, right, just like everybody really

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Speaker 2: could benefit from financial therapy. Just as you're saying that,

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Speaker 2: there's pretty much nothing that I can think of that's

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Speaker 2: a current issue that's not tied to a previous issue,

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Speaker 2: So I would say there's definite advantages there. I think

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Speaker 2: it's more of a willingness of if that's preventing you

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Speaker 2: from taking future actionsolutely, it could bolster what you're already doing.

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Speaker 2: But I would say the financial therapist is most critical

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Speaker 2: when you continue to fail or you continue to struggle

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Speaker 2: to get over some sort of barrier, and those are

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Speaker 2: pretty I would I want to use the word extreme,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't necessarily need to be like over the

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Speaker 2: top extreme. But thinking of situations such as a widow

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Speaker 2: is coming to you as a for assistance in terms

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Speaker 2: of what to do as the next steps. If that

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Speaker 2: widow is struggling with just paying daily bills and getting

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Speaker 2: to the office to have a conversation with you, or

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Speaker 2: remembering to check in on zoom for the conversation. I

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Speaker 2: would say that's a pretty good indicator that financial therapy

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Speaker 2: could be helpful in that situation, because we can't even

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Speaker 2: take that very first step to make the next step possible.

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Speaker 1: She needs more personal finance literally literacy necessarily, she needs

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Speaker 1: grief consultation. She needs someone to walk through what's happened precisely.

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Speaker 2: Okay, somebody who's willing to slow down and have those conversations.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right, Jeel. And the same thing is true

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Speaker 2: very often for big family conversations. So if you think

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Speaker 2: of a family office, financial therapist would actually be really

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Speaker 2: helpful there because there's a whole lot of dynamics going

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Speaker 2: on with navigating the different relationships between the diads, the triads,

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Speaker 2: et cetera within that family.

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Speaker 1: You recently published a study about how people feel about

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Speaker 1: their money versus how well they're actually doing. I found

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Speaker 1: that really interesting because there's just so much lately about

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Speaker 1: how just how people perceive themselves and then how they

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Speaker 1: perceive the world around them, and there's just a lot

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Speaker 1: of it doesn't always match up. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: are like, I'm doing pretty good. The world's going to

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Speaker 1: hell in a handbasket. What did you what did this

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Speaker 1: study entail, and what did you find?

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Speaker 2: This has got to be one of my current favorite studies.

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Speaker 2: That's with a former student of mind, doctor Van Deen

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Speaker 2: at the University of Wisconsin Superior, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: this started from her wanting to measure financial wellness, and

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Speaker 2: I said, Okay, well, I don't know that people are

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Speaker 2: interpreting that the same way. So we put people into

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Speaker 2: quadrants of I feel like I'm doing well with my finances,

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Speaker 2: but if you look objectively on paper, they're not doing

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Speaker 2: so great. And then if you kind of think of

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Speaker 2: the caddy corner from that, we've got people who don't

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Speaker 2: think that they're doing very good with their finances, but

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Speaker 2: on paper they're actually doing really good. And then we

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Speaker 2: have the people who think they're doing bad and really

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Speaker 2: on paper it doesn't look so good. And then vice versa,

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Speaker 2: people who are doing.

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Speaker 1: Good, people who are living in reality, whether it's good

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Speaker 1: or bad, right exactly.

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Speaker 2: And I thought that was so useful because especially those

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Speaker 2: two where they're not aligned, that's the problem right where

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Speaker 2: people are not living in and it's equally as dangerous

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Speaker 2: for people to think that they're doing well and then

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Speaker 2: objectively not be okay because they don't even recognize the

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Speaker 2: need to take action, and so we need to get

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Speaker 2: some sort of information out there in front of them

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Speaker 2: and really from the stages of change perspective, help them

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Speaker 2: understand that their behaviors could be influencing the people that

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Speaker 2: they care most about and that's not even on their

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Speaker 2: radar at all. They think that they're doing okay, so

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Speaker 2: why change anything. And I mean think about this in

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Speaker 2: terms of maybe an aging parent and they're really helping

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Speaker 2: out their adult children and maybe even their grandchildren because

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Speaker 2: it's a nice thing to do and they want to

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Speaker 2: be able to help them, and maybe what they're not

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Speaker 2: realizing is the damage this is doing to their personal

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Speaker 2: situation and potentially and not being able to support their

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Speaker 2: own life through the duration of their lifespan. So in effect,

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Speaker 2: they are going to have to be relaying on that

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Speaker 2: same child that they're funding right now, instead of encouraging

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Speaker 2: that adult child to take action on their own. So

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Speaker 2: I think it's really helpful in terms of having that

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Speaker 2: conversation of I know that you think you're trying to

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Speaker 2: be helpful, but let's look at this objectively as well

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Speaker 2: and see how this might be influencing you.

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Speaker 1: How do you get through to someone who who is

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Speaker 1: misguided even about the situation they're in. Like, I know

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Speaker 1: some people who have a generous heart, and it's a

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Speaker 1: beautiful thing, but sometimes it's to such an extreme that

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Speaker 1: they're really harming their own potential financial future and they

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Speaker 1: could create other difficulties inside of their family were they

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Speaker 1: to follow through right on some of those desires that

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Speaker 1: they have to be generous. Not again, this is like,

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Speaker 1: I'm all for generosity, but there's a for some people.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's potential to be generous to a fault. So

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Speaker 1: when someone is lacking understanding, I guess about where they

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Speaker 1: fall on the spectrum. How do you get through them?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Spot on. So these are what I would call

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Speaker 2: the dangerous quadrant people. We are not on a good

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Speaker 2: pathway here, and that person isn't even recognizing it at all.

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Speaker 2: And when a person is not aware of the impact

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Speaker 2: of their behaviors, it's what we might call a pre

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Speaker 2: contemplation stage of mentality. And they're not even worried about

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Speaker 2: changing anything because there is no problem, and you can

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Speaker 2: give them all of the education that you would like

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Speaker 2: to give them. It's going to cost this much for

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Speaker 2: you to retire. This is how much long term care

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Speaker 2: cost in case in the event that you might need that.

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Speaker 2: Here's the cost of rising housing, etc. Etc. It's not

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Speaker 2: going to be helpful because in their mind they're fine.

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Speaker 2: So when a person is in that mentality of I'm

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Speaker 2: fine when in reality they're not, it really is that

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Speaker 2: extrinsic motivation that's going to be helpful and helping them

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Speaker 2: see they talk to them about, Okay, well what does

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Speaker 2: this look like for your daughter when she's fifty years

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Speaker 2: old and you are eighty years old, let's say, and

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Speaker 2: just try to help them visualize a different point in

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Speaker 2: time with the people that they care most about. And

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Speaker 2: the answer is obvious to you. But no point in

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Speaker 2: this are you providing any sort of education or advice.

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Speaker 2: It's simply helping a person see different points in time

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Speaker 2: and the different people in their life and how they

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Speaker 2: could be impacted by this behavior. And whenever you see discrepancies,

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Speaker 2: then you can highlight it to where something like maybe

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Speaker 2: they say, I just want to be generous and this

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Speaker 2: is really important to me. You can say that back

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Speaker 2: to it, and I'm like, yeah, I hear that you

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Speaker 2: want to be generous and that's very admirable. Well, and

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Speaker 2: I love that about you, and I'm very encouraging of generosity,

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Speaker 2: just like you said. And let's think about what your

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Speaker 2: generosity might mean for you whoever they just said your daughter,

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Speaker 2: when you are entering into the retirement years, do you

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Speaker 2: want to continue that generosity or are you going to

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Speaker 2: have to decrease some of that generosity? And you're just

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Speaker 2: helping them see those different points in time.

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Speaker 1: There have been studies about the impact of financial stress

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Speaker 1: on decision making capabilities. Oh yeah, how does that usually

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Speaker 1: play out? And how can folks who are living closer

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Speaker 1: to subsistence, like they don't have tons of extra money

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Speaker 1: coming in, How can maybe I just think about how

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Speaker 1: negative financial stress can be and it can reduce that

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Speaker 1: what average IQUS reduced by like fourteen points or something

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Speaker 1: if you're feeling constant money stress, So it really like

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Speaker 1: in actuality, being stressed about money makes you less able

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Speaker 1: to make good decisions. Do you have any advice for

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Speaker 1: people like that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Biologically this is true and people try to fight

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Speaker 2: me on this topic all of the time, But the

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Speaker 2: reality is when you are under stress, your body goes

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Speaker 2: into the fight or flight response mechanism. That's something that

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Speaker 2: I think most people are familiar with. And when your

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Speaker 2: body goes into that fight or flight response mechanism, your

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Speaker 2: brain is making decisions based off of habit and emotion.

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Speaker 2: They want to get away from the situation or fight

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Speaker 2: through this situation that's based in front of them. And

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Speaker 2: that's what makes financial stress so dangerous, is because people

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Speaker 2: are not worried about the long term, and they're trying

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Speaker 2: to do something now to prevent something in the future

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Speaker 2: from happening when their brain can't even process the future term.

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Speaker 2: And one of my favorite things about this is stress

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Speaker 2: is so easy to measure, and that the fight or

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Speaker 2: flight response physiological stress, not your perception of stress, the

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Speaker 2: real life stress that's impacting your brain's ability to make decisions.

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Speaker 2: And it's your skin temperature. You've heard the phrase, are

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Speaker 2: you getting cold feet? It's the same thing. It's our

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Speaker 2: The body's extremities get colder when we go into the

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Speaker 2: fight or flight response mechanism. Do you know why, Joel

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Speaker 2: uh No? Because the blood is going back to the

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Speaker 2: heart to prepare for that physical reaction. And that's what

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Speaker 2: I'm saying. We can't even stop it. This is biology

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Speaker 2: at play. It doesn't look the same as it did

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Speaker 2: hundreds of years ago. We're not physically running away, but

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Speaker 2: we're definitely running away by pulling out our phone. You've

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Speaker 2: seen it when you're out at wherever and there's a

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Speaker 2: lull and activity and people just pull out their phone.

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Speaker 2: It's like we don't even know what to do with ourselves.

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Speaker 2: That's that's the automatic go to of I'm feeling kind

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Speaker 2: of uneasy, let me just get out the phone and

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Speaker 2: start looking at that. And it's the same thing people

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Speaker 2: do with their mini I'm starting to feel a little

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Speaker 2: bit uneasy. Let me just go get this thing to

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Speaker 2: help me feel better.

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Speaker 1: So part of the solution is being in touch with

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Speaker 1: our bodies, yes, at least a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly. And when you feel that your hands are cold,

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Speaker 2: you can feel the difference between your hands being cold

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Speaker 2: and warm. So ideal temperature we're looking for is about

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Speaker 2: ninety degrees fahrenheit, which is warm to the touch, compared

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Speaker 2: to seventy, which is closer to what mine is. Right now,

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Speaker 2: that is a very noticeable twenty degrees difference that you

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Speaker 2: can feel. And when you feel that cold hands and

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Speaker 2: when your significant other. I think this is great for

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Speaker 2: couples to be able to know what it feels like

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Speaker 2: to be stressed. And if you are coming home at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day and you're holding your partner's

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Speaker 2: hand and you notice that they have cold hands, let's

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Speaker 2: not waunch into a really deep conversation rate then it's

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Speaker 2: not going to be helpful. Let's not go through our

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Speaker 2: monthly budget right then. Instead, let's talk about what's top

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Speaker 2: of mind. And I think it's a really great way to

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Speaker 2: set up a conversation and make sure that all people

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Speaker 2: are in the right mentality to be able to hear

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Speaker 2: the information and take action on the information.

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Speaker 1: You've also said, I've heard you say that money is

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Speaker 1: never just about money, and I think that's true for sure.

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Speaker 1: And I guess when you first start thinking about personal finance,

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Speaker 1: it seems like math is the most important important thing

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Speaker 1: to take into it. But I think over the years,

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Speaker 1: I've come to believe that emotions trump math much of

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Speaker 1: the time. So, but is there something it's how do

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Speaker 1: we identify what's happening beneath the surface when we're thinking

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Speaker 1: about how we treat money, or react to money, or

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Speaker 1: react to even like a money decision that a spouse

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Speaker 1: or partner makes, and doesn't this imply that all financial

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Speaker 1: conversations are going to be so much more complicated than

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Speaker 1: maybe they would seem like they should be at first glance.

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Speaker 2: Definitely they are harder than they should be and need

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Speaker 2: to be. It goes back to recognizing yourself. It's all

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Speaker 2: about that self awareness. So it starts by tracking. And

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Speaker 2: let's say you have a conflict, not an argument, but

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Speaker 2: a disagreement with your significant other. Write it down and

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Speaker 2: talk about what the content of that conversation was, but

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Speaker 2: also talk about what came right before and what came

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Speaker 2: right after it. And you're just journaling about this, so

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Speaker 2: you might recognize that maybe the conflict was about you

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Speaker 2: didn't tell me about this bill that we had coming up,

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Speaker 2: but also the things that were surrounding it were things

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Speaker 2: such as maybe that one of the children needed something

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Speaker 2: for school and we weren't able to get that thing

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Speaker 2: for school. So once you start to recking this, and

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Speaker 2: then maybe the next thing you see is we had

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Speaker 2: a conflict that I don't know, you spent excusage.

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Speaker 1: An unexpected expense came right and I was I was

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Speaker 1: flumb exed by it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Then I also noticed that in one month,

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Speaker 2: we have a competition that we're going to for one

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Speaker 2: of the kids. And as you start tracking these things,

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Speaker 2: it's not obvious at the moment, but then I can

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Speaker 2: start seeing that, Okay, I'm really having these maybe more

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Speaker 2: reactive situations when there's also these events tied to my

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Speaker 2: children going on. And so for me, what that represents

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Speaker 2: is financial security for the next generation is really important

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Speaker 2: to me. So I've identified a value, right and so

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Speaker 2: it's not about you spent too much money without telling me.

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Speaker 2: It's something else is more important to me right now,

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Speaker 2: and I feel like you weren't listening to the thing

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Speaker 2: that was important to me, and you're not going to

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Speaker 2: be able to identify that when you're in that heightened

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Speaker 2: emotional state. But you can start identifying the patterns yourself

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Speaker 2: when you start tracking that.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's often hard to know why, which is like

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Speaker 1: why I think therapy can be helpful, But it's hard

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Speaker 1: to know why we're reacting similarly on repeat right, over

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Speaker 1: and over to similar inputs. So it might take somebody

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Speaker 1: a while to be like, actually, the reason I'm reacting

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Speaker 1: negatively to the way we spend money in that way

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Speaker 1: is because I want to be thoughtful about saving up

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Speaker 1: money for our kid's future. Like it's not like a

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Speaker 1: straight line, and most people have a hard time deducing

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Speaker 1: that that's kind of at the root of some of

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Speaker 1: their actions or reactions.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you really pointed to something that is so important,

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Speaker 2: and that's the systemic relationships that are at play. It's

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Speaker 2: never a to be there's always some sort of circuit

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Speaker 2: or A to B two C back to A two D.

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Speaker 2: And when you're dealing with families, it's impossible. Like imagine

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Speaker 2: all of our family members, all of our friends stacked

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Speaker 2: up in this really neat domino pattern, and I go

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Speaker 2: to knock over the domino pattern, and that has an

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Speaker 2: influence on all of the other dominoes at play. So

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Speaker 2: even though I might not be directly in contact with

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Speaker 2: somebody within our family system, what they do with the

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Speaker 2: money is definitely influencing me because it's influencing somebody else

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Speaker 2: that I'm connected with, and so on and so forth.

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Speaker 2: And it's hard. There's no way that I could see

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Speaker 2: how somebody else's behaviors are influencing me unless I'm willing

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Speaker 2: to take the time and gather information and reflect upon

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Speaker 2: what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so personal work that needs to be done, there's

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Speaker 1: relational work that needs to be done across the spectrum.

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Speaker 1: I have more I want to get through, specifically about

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Speaker 1: relationships and how we can have healthier relationships so that

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Speaker 1: we can make more productive decisions our money and have

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Speaker 1: just better relationships in general. Get some more questions with

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Speaker 1: you on that front. Right after this, we're back still

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Speaker 1: talking with doctor Sonya Luder, and we're talking about healthy relationships,

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Speaker 1: kind of talking about healthy individual relationship to money just

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Speaker 1: a second ago, but let's specifically focus in on relationships

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Speaker 1: and money just given kind of where we're at in

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Speaker 1: the year. It's a fun topic to hit home on,

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Speaker 1: and you have so much experience in this, doctor Sonya,

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Speaker 1: But like, can you maybe tell me what are the

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Speaker 1: biggest predictors of financial conflict in a relationship?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is funny coming from a woman, but this

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Speaker 2: is science based and so cannot refute the data that's

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Speaker 2: out there. This is not my personal opinion. This is

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Speaker 2: multiple people contributing to this, and it's when the wife

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Speaker 2: makes more than the husband that is such a strong

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Speaker 2: predictor of money conflict even today, and that absolutely blows

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Speaker 2: my mind that we could have these expectations about what

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Speaker 2: a man is supposed to do and earn and what

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Speaker 2: a female is supposed to do and earn. Maybe I

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Speaker 2: don't realize that that's what's happening. But if you look

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Speaker 2: at the data and you're not asking people what's contributing

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Speaker 2: to your money conflict, you're looking at all of the

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Speaker 2: other things that are going on in their life, and

436
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: the thing that comes up is women making more than

437
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 2: the husband more.

438
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: Child and that's an issue. Why Why is that an

439
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 1: issue for people? Is it? Because then it feels like

440
00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: the traditional chore sharing and kid toting cys is turned

441
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: on its head.

442
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: Or I mean, that's kind of the direction I was

443
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: going with these expectations. So the data don't ask the why,

444
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 2: we're just making assumptions from here. But what we do

445
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: see quantitatively associated with this is that when women make

446
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 2: more than their husbands, they are not doing less household work.

447
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 2: They actually tend to do even more household work. And

448
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 2: so I do think where you were going with that

449
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 2: with these traditional gender role expectations, if you will, that

450
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 2: is the conflict at play. So the man is supposed

451
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: to be the breadwinner, and so if he's not the breadwinner,

452
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 2: then perhaps there's this guild or some sort of emotional

453
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: reaction for the woman that she's like, well, I better

454
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: go ahead and do more of the household work because

455
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 2: I'm messing up. I'm changing the dynamics of what is

456
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: suppose to be. And I'm not saying that this is

457
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: my personal belief or any one person's, but if you

458
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 2: look at the data, that's what's happening. And again, this

459
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 2: is current day issues. This is not fifty years ago,

460
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 2: this is right now.

461
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: It seems like that's a recipe for resentment, right like

462
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: that if someone feels like they have to double down

463
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: on home duties when they are also the primary breadwinner,

464
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: that they're like, uh, I feel like I'm holding up

465
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,239
Speaker 1: this family solo, Like what's going on here? We need

466
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: more of a partnership. And I could see that kind

467
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: of eroding some of the relational dynamic between between a couple.

468
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And when I've done clinical work, what I've

469
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 2: seen is that couples don't necessarily see this pattern playing

470
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 2: out because they got into the relationship with some sort

471
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 2: of set of expectations that probably can from when they

472
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: were growing up. But who knows. Maybe it was just

473
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 2: convenient at that time that she did the laundry and

474
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: he did the artwork, and that's what made sense at

475
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: that point in time. And then as time progresses, maybe

476
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 2: that set of expectations that they had at the beginning

477
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 2: of their relationship doesn't always make sense later on down

478
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 2: the road. And so I think that's why it's important

479
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: to have these conversations, like maybe I used to manage

480
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: the daily finances, but now it doesn't make as much

481
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 2: sense for me. And there's no reason for couples to

482
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: naturally have these conversations unless you schedule it. Nobody wants

483
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 2: to talk about jobs that we have to do with

484
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: in the house, and so being purposeful about tax time

485
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: is a really ideal time because we're talking about money anyway.

486
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: Valentine's Day also super fun time to talk about money.

487
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: But whatever the timeframe is for people, for couples to

488
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: schedule that time and be committed to it, I think

489
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: is so important.

490
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: How do you have that conversation without having a fight,

491
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: Because I think some people hear you say Valentine's Days

492
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: a great time to have to bring that up, and

493
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, Yeah, probably not. Maybe let's take avoid

494
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: it so we can keep some peace, have a good

495
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: time together, enjoy each other. And you're like telling them

496
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: to have this conversation about really important issues that really

497
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: could drive a wedge in between them. Yeah, or at

498
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: least that's how some people feel, I think when.

499
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: They hear that, Yeah, And I would say back, why

500
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: are you going towards the negative because this is also

501
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: a really beautiful time to talk about your future together

502
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: and your commitment together. Yeah, And I think that's really

503
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: what the framing is all about, and not focusing on

504
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: what didn't work in the past, but what has worked

505
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: and what we want to do more of. And that's

506
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: from my therapy training, and that is a really big

507
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: thing and I actually have another paper on that with

508
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: the positive framing in the financial space, when you ask

509
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: people to compare themselves if they're doing better off than

510
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: their peers, they will subsequently answer questions any more positive

511
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: view that they're using money for joy more frequently than

512
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: if you ask are you doing worse off than your peers?

513
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: And it's just one word different, better off worse off,

514
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: And that does make a difference in terms of how

515
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: people continue the conversation. So I would say Valentine's Day

516
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: is actually a perfect time because maybe you're more generous

517
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: with your compliments than what you are normally. Fantastic, that's

518
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: going to set you up to have more positive conversations

519
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: about the financial situation and your financial goals and what

520
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: you're doing within the household that's working, and always stay

521
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: focused on the positive and what's done is done. So

522
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 2: let's leave that Beah, but what do we see for

523
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: the future and make it more of that future focused

524
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: goal setting.

525
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: The people say opposite attract, right, and but that can

526
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: that can in the early days of a relationship that

527
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: can be really exciting, like, oh, I'm I'm kind of conservative,

528
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: the other person's a little little out there. It's kind

529
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: of it's kind of fun, right like, But but specifically

530
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: in the realm of money, that can also create tension.

531
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: I mean, in the further along you get in a relationship,

532
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: it can also create tension on non monetary levels. But

533
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: how should people think about that? Opposites attract mantra with

534
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: how they handle money together. If you have, like I

535
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: talked to somebody a while back about people being tightwads

536
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: and spend thrifts and how how do you match the

537
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,479
Speaker 1: the reality that we both have completely different views on money.

538
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: Some are like let's let's say forty percent of income

539
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: or income and the other ones like we could die tomorrow.

540
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: Let's let's throw caution to the wind, Like how do

541
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: you manage that as a couple.

542
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously it's a recipe for conflict, not disaster. But

543
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: there is increase conflict when it is the spender and

544
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: the saber, And you're exactly right, it's really exciting at

545
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: the beginning of the relationship. And this is where those

546
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: regular conversations come into play. As I said, at the

547
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: beginning of our conversation, people don't even know how to

548
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: start the conversation, so we tend to go into it

549
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: with a bit of stress. When we're stress, we are

550
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: reacting based off with very heightened emotions and based off

551
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: of habit. So it's not a good time, it's not

552
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 2: a good recipe to engage in a conversation. So I

553
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 2: already know that if you're a spender and I'm a saver,

554
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 2: there's probably some tension associated with that. And so let's

555
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: come to this in a more relaxed state of mind.

556
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: A regularly scheduled time. I'm not going to spring it

557
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: upon you that I'm mad at you because you spent

558
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: too much and we agreed we were going to save

559
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 2: ten percent more this month. That's not helpful. But if

560
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: we have a schedule time to where that conversation is

561
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: supposed to happen, that's when people can set their emotional

562
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: mindset and come to it in a much more stable mentality.

563
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 2: What you said at the beginning of the relationship, or

564
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: you use that phrase, that is also a really key

565
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: thing in the literature from my research that the amount

566
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: that a couple argues at the beginning of their relationship

567
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: is even more predictive of later relationship satisfaction than how

568
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: much they argue later on. Isn't that crazy? And even

569
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: an increase in arguments not as important as how much

570
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: they argued at the very beginning of their relationship. And

571
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: I think that's pointing at some of these things that

572
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: you're talking about that we didn't set the expectations of. Well,

573
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: when we were dating, this was really fun to have

574
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: the vendor saver. Now that we're living in the same household,

575
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: not quite as exciting because we've got bills to pay

576
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: and these other things that need to take priority, and

577
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: so that early conversation pattern setting is super crucial. It

578
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 2: doesn't mean if you've been in a relationship for a

579
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: long time all hope is lost. Start now, early you start.

580
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: The better going to take some intentionality is And I

581
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: like that you said, like, yeah, having it on the calendar,

582
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: having it, having a regular time where you talk about this,

583
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: so that you don't have to bring it up in

584
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: the heat of the moment, because it doesn't feel like

585
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: there's another set aside place in space to have that conversation.

586
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: If it's there, then you can address the issue on

587
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: the preordained time right And in your opinion, is there

588
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: like a right amount of financial transparency and communication or

589
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: do you feel like every relationship is different? Should and

590
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: maybe like, as you get more in tune with your partner,

591
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: can you reduce the number of or just maybe shorten

592
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,959
Speaker 1: the time span that it takes to have those money

593
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 1: dates or whatever. What does that look like? And what's

594
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: your advice for people?

595
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: I will say with one hundred percent certainty that relationship

596
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: satisfaction is higher the more joint accounts couples have. That's

597
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: not my research. Scott Rick's research it's really fantastic stuff.

598
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: You can't have joint accounts without having full transparency. So

599
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: I would make the assumption that full transparency is the

600
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 2: key to high relationship satisfaction because you can't be hiding anything,

601
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: and it creates the opportunity for forced conversations about your

602
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: finances because I can't be doing my own thing and

603
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: you doing your own thing from the same account. We've

604
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: got to at least have some sort of conversation about

605
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 2: what's going on to make sure that there's money in

606
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: the account to do the things that are necessary to

607
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: live and to do the things that we want to do.

608
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: And so I'm a strong proponent of full transparency. I

609
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: do think that couples should have the trust to be

610
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: able to spend what they want to spend without having

611
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 2: to check in with every purchase. Though, and people always

612
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: ask me what the magic number is, Well, how much

613
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: can I spend without telling my partner? I don't know.

614
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 2: That's for you and your partner to actually talk about

615
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: and have the conversation. It could be five dollars, it

616
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 2: could be five hundred dollars, it could be fifty thousand dollars.

617
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 2: It's a very relationship specific, but you've got to have

618
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: that conversation with one another. So I don't think that

619
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: transparency is the same as asking permission. I think it's

620
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 2: a matter of we all need to know what's going

621
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: on and feel comfortable with what's going on.

622
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 1: Do you think it's more important to have shared financial

623
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: goals or shared financial values? And which one of those

624
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: is maybe like more predictive of long term relationship success,

625
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: is like we view things the same way, or it's

626
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: like we're trying to go to the same place.

627
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: Definitely the values values. If we're not aligned on values,

628
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 2: there's no way the goals are gonna come.

629
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: To be okay. And then let's say sometimes there's also

630
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: just a different risk tolerance down in couples, right. I

631
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: know we heard from a listener recently who said, you

632
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: know what, the financial advisor, Like, I wouldn't want to

633
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: hire one. I feel like I'm good, but it's the

634
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: way I keep our marriage happy. Like this is something

635
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: and I just feel like if the stock market, you know,

636
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: if we had a bear market next year, that there's

637
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 1: chance that that could if we have an advisor, hey,

638
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 1: it's okay, Like we can weather it because there's somebody

639
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: you know on on our side and that my spouse trusts.

640
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: But if I'm the one in control and we have

641
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: a bear market, I might take the plane. So how

642
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: do you think about third parties in involvement in your

643
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,959
Speaker 1: finances and how that can help or maybe even hurt

644
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: your relational satisfaction.

645
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: Both people have to feel comfortable with this person, and

646
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 2: it goes back to the transparency. If I'm not willing

647
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 2: to be transparent with a third party, it is going

648
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: to create a bit of a triangle situation to where

649
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 2: the person who feels like they can trust and be

650
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: transparent with this person, they're getting a coalition to go

651
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 2: against my partner because they're not having that same sort

652
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 2: of rapport and trust with this third person. In general,

653
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 2: that third person can be super helpful, and financial advisors

654
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 2: absolutely play a role in couple's relationship satisfaction. I looked

655
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 2: at that across multiple data sets, multiple wealth and income levels,

656
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 2: and it stays consistent throughout that when a couple works

657
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 2: with a financial advisor, not only are they more satisfied

658
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: with their financial situation, we're satisfied in their relationship. And

659
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: I think it's because that third person one forces us

660
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: to have the conversation, and we're probably going to have

661
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: a fairly calm conversation because we're probably not going to

662
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: go in a full on fight in front of a

663
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 2: third person. Unless that's a therapist, then you might that's true,

664
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: but in general, but in general, they provide that safe

665
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: space to say what's on your mind and have the

666
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 2: scheduled conversations. And we all live busy lives and that

667
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 2: time has been carved aside to talk about our money. Yeah,

668
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: and that's a beautiful time to do it.

669
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: You mentioned to the joint bank accounts, and I've seen

670
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: those studies too, and it certainly seems like that's a

671
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: really important predictor of relational success. And financial infidelity is

672
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: one of those things that could be a massive problem.

673
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: Like do you think financial infidelity where someone is maybe

674
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: spending money in a way the partner has no idea

675
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: about opening up a credit card in their own name,

676
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: racking up debt, or bringing that into a relationship that

677
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: they're just not being honest about. Is that on par

678
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: with sexual infidelity And can that have the same ultimate ramifications?

679
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: Yes, because it's not about the money, right, There's something

680
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 2: else going on there that they're spending the money on

681
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 2: or they feel like they can't have the conversation about it.

682
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: And the same is true right of sexual infidelity. Oftentimes

683
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: it's not about the one act, It's about how did

684
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 1: we get drift so far apart that this felt like

685
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: it was okay?

686
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 2: Precisely, and so there's no way that if you discover

687
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: this as a financial advisor, you're going to be prepared

688
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 2: to guide to couple through that. That's why we have

689
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: the financial therapist or the therapist to have those conversations.

690
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: But I would say, if you, if you feel like

691
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: you are in that situation, let's not be accusatory. Let's

692
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: increase our financial conversations and come together and be like, Okay,

693
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: what are we happy about? And how can we do

694
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 2: more of those things that we're happy about?

695
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: Or we got more to get to including I want

696
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 1: to talk about shame and the role that it plays

697
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: in our finances and how we might be able to

698
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: undo some of the nefarious effects. I'm talking about that

699
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: in more. In just a second, we're talking about doctor

700
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: Sonya Luter Soddy. I want to I want to talk

701
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: about shame. I feel like shame is one of the

702
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: most underrated forces in the universe, and it is something

703
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: that we just don't talk about very much, probably because

704
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: we're a shame to talk about it, but like we

705
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: tend to act and react so often out of the

706
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: impulse of shame, whether it's a past money mistake that

707
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: we've made, and it just like it just irritates us

708
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: when we think about it, but like we haven't really

709
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: been forthcoming with it, and so it just it eats

710
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: away at us from the inside. What advice do you

711
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: have for shining a light on the shame that might

712
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: be driving our money habits and some of the communication

713
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: that we do and have around money.

714
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you feel shame, it's normal, and you're just

715
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: like everybody else. Even people who are supposedly good with

716
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 2: money probably have some sort of negative feeling or negative

717
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: memory associated with money because we're not taught to talk

718
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 2: about it. And just think about a dinner party and

719
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: if somebody asked you, oh, what sort of medications are

720
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: you one, people would definitely tell you that information. Maybe

721
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 2: not quickly, but somebody would say, and then everybody else

722
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 2: would say And it's not that shaming to talk about

723
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: those things. It's like, well, physical health is a part

724
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 2: of life and I'm getting older and this is what's happened,

725
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: and that's just kind of normal or not look down

726
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 2: upon necessarily to have those types of conversations. But if

727
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 2: you were sitting around the same dinner party and somebody said, well,

728
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,280
Speaker 2: how much money do you have in your savings account

729
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 2: this year? Not a single person is going to speak

730
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: up to.

731
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: That crickets, yeah, or what's the worst money mistake you've made?

732
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 2: And they're like, uh no, thank you. Yeah, yeah, But

733
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be that way, right, And what

734
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: you see is very rarely reality, and electronics has made

735
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: this so much easier for us to believe that what

736
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 2: we see is true when in reality it's not. So

737
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 2: I would say again it goes back to self awareness

738
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 2: that when you hear your friends talking about their vacations

739
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: or you see their post about these really beautiful things

740
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: that they have, there might be some truth to that,

741
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: and there's probably alternative truths that are not as obvious

742
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 2: from that one snapshot. And so being okay with not

743
00:43:54,040 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: knowing everybody's information and not making assumptions about everybody information,

744
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: that comparison game gets usund to trouble every time. And

745
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: that's where a lot of that shame comes from is

746
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: we're comparing ourselves to where we think we should be.

747
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: We're comparing ourselves to our neighbors, to our friends. So

748
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: just taking a step back and practicing gratitude of what

749
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: you do have and how you're happy with the direction

750
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: that you're going, and if you're not happy with the

751
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: direction that you're going, take steps to make it better

752
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 2: for you, not compared to somebody else, but for you,

753
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: what would bring you closer to your values.

754
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: I think therapy is it's becoming obviously far more normalized

755
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: in our culture, and I think there's a lot of

756
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: good to that. There are also a lot of people

757
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 1: listening who are like, it's so expensive, Like I tried

758
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:50,879
Speaker 1: to hire a therapist. It's like one hundred and seventy

759
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: dollars an hour. Am I supposed to go once a week?

760
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: That's like a car payment? So do you have any

761
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: suggestions for somebody who's like, man, I really think I

762
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: could benefit from doing some a deep dive with a therapist.

763
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: What are maybe some ways that I could start to

764
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,439
Speaker 1: do some of that work internally and have a better

765
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: emotional understanding of how I hand, how and why I

766
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: handle my money the way I do without seeing a professional.

767
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, completely for free. You can start doing work right now,

768
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 2: and part of that is practicing gratitude. So at the

769
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: end of each day, just write down one thing on

770
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: a piece of paper in your phone app. There's even

771
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 2: app free apps you can download for gratitude journals. Write

772
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: down one thing that you're grateful for, and you're going

773
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 2: to see measurable improvement if you do that consistently. I'm

774
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 2: pretty much every area of your life. Feel happier about

775
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: your finances, you are physically healthier if you do this

776
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: on a regular basis, relationships are happier, et cetera, et cetera.

777
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: And it's all totally free to do that. You don't

778
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 2: need to pay a therapist, you don't need to dig

779
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 2: into your past. It's just right now today, What am

780
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 2: I most grateful for?

781
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: That's such a simple suggestion, but it has such like

782
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 1: power behind it, right. I think it's it's something that

783
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 1: people might be like, oh, okay, I mean what else though,

784
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: like give me something, give me something harder, or news

785
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: I can use or something, But like, there is something

786
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: so powerful about gratitude, and we just underestimate what it

787
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: can do for us. Yeah, I'm curious to the specifically

788
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: since you know, almost Valentine's Day talking to couples. You

789
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: wrote a book called Love and Money and you offered

790
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: guided exercise for couples to improve their financial wellbeing. Can

791
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: you share one or two of the things you found

792
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 1: to be most effective? And yes, specifically for the couples

793
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: who are listening and they're like, I want to have

794
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: a good conversation, like I want to start making progress,

795
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: and doctor Sonya said that Valentine's Day was a good

796
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: time to get started, So like, do you have any

797
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: like good prompts for them?

798
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a cost associated with the book, but

799
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 2: it's so low cost action of one conversation with a therapist,

800
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: So good suggestion. The values bullseye is probably my absolute

801
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 2: most favor activity because it sets the stage for everything

802
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 2: else to come after that. So with the values bullseye,

803
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: what we see happening as people go through an assessment

804
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 2: to identify what their values are if they don't already know.

805
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: So maybe it's financial security, maybe it's time with family,

806
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: maybe it's physical health. And then once we identify what

807
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: those values are, we put them on a bullseye if

808
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: you can imagine a target and the thing that's most

809
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 2: central to everything else, we put that right in the middle,

810
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: and then we go out with three or four or

811
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: five values that we have, and then we come together

812
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 2: as a couple and identify where are we aligned or

813
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 2: maybe where are we a little bit different, and how

814
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 2: can we make a combined bullseye that reflects both of

815
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 2: our values in a way that that we feel comfortable

816
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 2: with as a team together. And then what we can

817
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 2: start doing is we write out sticky notes of our

818
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 2: financial goals or what we're doing with our money right now.

819
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 2: So maybe we're spending five hundred dollars a month on

820
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: some sort of membership that is not aligned with any

821
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 2: of those values that we just wrote down, so we're

822
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 2: not going to get rid of it right now, but

823
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 2: we're going to put that goal off to the side.

824
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 2: We're going to do this with all of our different

825
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 2: goals and current spending that we're doing. And it's a

826
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: really nice visual activity to start rearranging how you're spending

827
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: your money and resources and time and how you might

828
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,760
Speaker 2: want to think about some of those things differently.

829
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: I love that, And then yeah, it's so much easier

830
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: to shift spending around when it's not for let's correct

831
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 1: the mistake we've made of things where it's But when

832
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: it's a positive association, it's like, here's our values. Our

833
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: spending doesn't curally reflect that. Let's make our spending more

834
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 1: reflect our valuies. I think that's beautiful. That's a great

835
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: place to start, doctor Sonya. Thank you so much for

836
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: joining me. Where can how the money listeners find out

837
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: more about you and what you're up to?

838
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 2: Yep, first and last name dot com Sonya lud dot com.

839
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: Lovely, we'll put it, put it in the show notes

840
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: up on our side as well. Thank you so much

841
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: for joining me today.

842
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 2: Thanks Jill.

843
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: All right, So glad I was able to have doctor

844
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: Sonya on today to talk about just kind of the

845
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: emotional underbelly of money and how we think about it

846
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: and just it loves starting off talking about individually what

847
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: that looks like, but then really getting into the relational

848
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: dynamics and money is it's typically like, like doctor Sonya said,

849
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: there's something else going on under the surface, right, those

850
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: money arguments they're never just about money. It's about misaligned

851
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: values or it's about things that we haven't come to

852
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: grips with individually, and there's just so much ability for

853
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: us to make progress in our finances as a family,

854
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: as a couple, as an individual when we do some

855
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: of that work and when we're willing to open up

856
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: the lines of communication together. So that was one of

857
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: my big takeaways from this conversation was that you have

858
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: to make it regular and you have to put her

859
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 1: on the calendar, otherwise it's going to come out sideways. Right,

860
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: So it's going to come out in the heat of

861
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 1: the moment or at an inopportune time, and you're going

862
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: to make that accusatory finger wagging comment where it's like, hey,

863
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: you didn't hold up here into the bargain, you spent

864
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: more than you were supposed to. You let the budget

865
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: get out of control this month. And if it's in

866
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: a predefined time and space, it's just easier to have

867
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: that conversation. It's like, listen, I'm not happy right now,

868
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: but you know, we got that money date on the

869
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: calendar for Monday. We can just talk about it then.

870
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: And it also, I think one of the things that

871
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: she alluded to on multiple occasions during this conversation was

872
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: that you should phrase things positively and when you phrase

873
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: things positively, it just hits differently. And I think so

874
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: often when we feel like our finances are out of

875
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: control and that our relationship with money together as a couple,

876
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: as a unit isn't running on all cylinders, it's it's

877
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: really easy to start playing the blame game and to

878
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: start saying things in a way that gets the way

879
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: you feel across to your partner, but not in a

880
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: way that's going to lead to positive action or good resolution.

881
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: And I think she talked about just the one word

882
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:36,240
Speaker 1: difference in that survey question and how it made people

883
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 1: respond differently, and I think that's true of how we

884
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,919
Speaker 1: talk to each other in those money during those money

885
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: dates or as we're you know, kind of trying to

886
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: come up with what our common money money values are.

887
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: We can talk about the negatives, but we're likely to

888
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: get worse outcomes and crappier responses. And yet if we

889
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 1: do the take the opposite route and we say, let's

890
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: think about what the future could look like, what sort

891
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: of money goals do we have together? Like, I love

892
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 1: that talking about the shared values then makes it so

893
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: much easier to eradicate the spending, and maybe some of

894
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: the misaligned ways that we are making money choices. It's

895
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 1: so much easier to do that once you've had that

896
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: values conversation and you have a positive look outlook going forward,

897
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: then you can go back to the spending and be like,

898
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: all right, that means like, clearly, based on our conversation,

899
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: we're going to cut here, here and here right, great,

900
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: and then guess what we get to funnel that money

901
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: positively into these other directions that both of us have

902
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: just agreed that we care about deeply. So doing some

903
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: of that work I think can make a big difference

904
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: in our ability to make money progress and just feel

905
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: like we're on the same page, like we're communicating effectively

906
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 1: with our partner, with our spouse, with our significant other.

907
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, just here's hoping that we can all avoid

908
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 1: money conflict this Valentine's Day, enjoy our the person who's

909
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 1: in our lives if you have one, and that you

910
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 1: can have better money conversations using some of the advice

911
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: that doctor Sony gave today. Thank you as always for joining.

912
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: We'll put links in the show notes to doctor Sony's

913
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 1: website and some of the resources that we mentioned today

914
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: on the podcast. Until next time, best friend out