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Speaker 1: Ah, Welcome to Behind the Bastards, the podcast where I

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans am pulling a power move on Sophie with

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Speaker 1: the script of today's episode. Again, you want me to

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Speaker 1: send it, Sophie excited, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Do you want pain and suffering? I will drive to

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Speaker 2: your house. I will. I will literally end this zoom call.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, you might, you might, you might.

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Speaker 3: People can't see it, so if he has an axe

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Speaker 3: behind it, I got her that act probably a mistake.

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Speaker 2: I'm so nervous to open this.

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Speaker 1: Uh uh huh. I know it's it's a Schrodinger's script.

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Speaker 1: It could be a fake again, it could be the

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Speaker 1: real script. You never know, dead cat, who is the

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Speaker 1: real script?

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Speaker 2: The real script? Because you're a fucking coward. That's why.

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Speaker 1: Well, you don't want to do it every time. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to do it two weeks in a row.

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Speaker 1: You'd expect it too much.

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Speaker 2: Respect.

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Speaker 1: I gotta luw you back into a false sense of

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Speaker 1: security and then send.

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Speaker 2: Me the right script, you motherfucker.

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Speaker 1: This is the one use for chat GPT. I may

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Speaker 1: have it write a fake script that looks like on

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Speaker 1: the surface like it could be real, and then send

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Speaker 1: that to you. Some week and see how long it

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Speaker 1: takes before you get really angry.

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Speaker 4: I gotta be honest. I've read the first who said

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Speaker 4: it's a chat scheep, but you can write that shit.

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Speaker 2: You are an artiste.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. Speaking of art. Our guest for today,

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Speaker 1: James Stout, a man whose life is a work of art. James,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing today? So much better for that? Roman?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? Welcome? Yeah? Sor are your spear gun triggers

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Speaker 1: not working ideally? Yeah? Yeah, I'm going to make it work.

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Speaker 1: It's okay. The joy of building weapons for yourself is

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Speaker 1: the long period through which they don't work, to figure

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Speaker 1: out what tiny thing you've gotten wrong, hopefully when it

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Speaker 1: discharges into you. Yes, as long as you don't point

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Speaker 1: them at yourself. Yeah, they are fun and rewarding. Why

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Speaker 1: barrel discipline is key? You know what else is key? James?

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Speaker 1: What is that? Root? Breath control and true? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Today we're talking about a guy who has gotten very

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Speaker 1: probably rich, I don't know his exact neck worth, but

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Speaker 1: certainly extremely famous for teaching people a series of very

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Speaker 1: specific breathing techniques. A fella that you may have heard

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Speaker 1: of that most of I'm gonna guess a lot of

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Speaker 1: our listeners have heard of named wim Hoff. James, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're you're aware of You're actually the guy who suggested

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Speaker 1: this episode. So what am I fucking around pretending like James?

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Speaker 1: What do you know about wim Hoff? Yeah? You know,

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Speaker 1: you know he's a dangerous grifter. Yes, I'm gonna guess

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Speaker 1: most of our audience don't because I really didn't, you know.

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Speaker 1: For for me, wim was a guy who you know

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Speaker 1: he was, He was on the scene. He's now spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time in like Joe Rogan show, He's

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Speaker 1: been on like the Goop pod cast, and he's working

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Speaker 1: on a TV show with those people. But prior to that,

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Speaker 1: he was also pretty prominent. I back when I worked

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Speaker 1: at crack dot com like ten years ago, we featured

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Speaker 1: him in an article for some of the stuff he

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Speaker 1: would do and broad whim as a guy who like

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Speaker 1: uses a series of breathing and meditative techniques that he

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Speaker 1: claims basically renders him immune to the cold and capable

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Speaker 1: of extreme feats of heretofore thought impossible athletic prowess. He's

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Speaker 1: been studied and by scientists and a number of occasions

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Speaker 1: there are some things he's done that are impressive, although

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about it not in the way that he

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Speaker 1: claims usually. But you know, I was somebody who I

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Speaker 1: read about him. I read like, saw this video of

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Speaker 1: him like submerged in ice, you know, for a crazy

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Speaker 1: long period of time, or like hiking up Kilimanjaro in shorts,

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Speaker 1: and was like, Oh, that's impressive. Cool. I guess a

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Speaker 1: guy figured out some new endurance techniques, nifty, And I

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Speaker 1: kind of didn't think about it much more than that, right,

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Speaker 1: It was not. It wasn't one of those things. Wim

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Speaker 1: was not initially claiming I have cured cancer, you know,

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Speaker 1: or I've got like you know, you don't need vaccines,

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Speaker 1: just do my exercise techniques. He was just a guy

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Speaker 1: who was like, you actually have more control over your

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Speaker 1: body's reactions to cold than you think, and here's how

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Speaker 1: to do it, which didn't seem to me on the

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Speaker 1: service to be something particularly sketchy. And I'm gonna guess

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Speaker 1: most people were kind of in that broad bucket where

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Speaker 1: you were like, you saw some video of him, you

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Speaker 1: read some article, you're like, oh, neat, and then you

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Speaker 1: went on with your life. The truth is that he

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Speaker 1: is in fact a rather dangerous con man. Now, since

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Speaker 1: mister Hoff is a bit of a fame hound, it's

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Speaker 1: not hard to find interviews with him, and nearly all

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Speaker 1: of them summarize his career in similar ways. To set

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Speaker 1: the scene, I'd like to read an excerpt from an

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Speaker 1: article in The Mirror, which is a shitty tabloid but

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Speaker 1: reasonably representative of the tone a lot of websites use

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Speaker 1: when talking about whim Hoff. That's why I'm quoting it,

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Speaker 1: not to not because the Mirror is a reliable source on.

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Speaker 3: Anything Brinn's left wing press.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Quote, but a daredevil record holder dubbed the Iceman,

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Speaker 1: showed he can keep a cool head after scrambling to

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Speaker 1: the top of Mount Kilimanjaro in record time. Wim Hoff,

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Speaker 1: fifty five, holds a whopping twenty six Guinness World records

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Speaker 1: for extreme sports challenges, including running a full marathon above

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Speaker 1: the Arctic Circle wearing only a pair of shorts. But

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Speaker 1: father of five, whim from Sittard, Holland, proved he has

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Speaker 1: ice in his veins after his eighteen strong climbing groups

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Speaker 1: scaled Africa's highest mountain in a record time of thirty

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Speaker 1: one hours and twenty five minutes.

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Speaker 3: Now, James, it does sound by chat GPT. We show

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Speaker 3: that that one wasn't. I am absolutely not sure that

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Speaker 3: could have been chat GPT, but it is. If it was,

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Speaker 3: it's because they cut up a bunch of other newspapers

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Speaker 3: talking about whim.

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Speaker 1: They all use that kind of tone. Now, James, do

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Speaker 1: you want to guess what percentage of the claims made

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Speaker 1: in those three sentences are true? Zero? Yeah, zero, every

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Speaker 1: single thing. I just read you as a lie. A

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Speaker 1: couple of them, my hood, nos like that. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound right. See, I'm sure about that. But you will

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Speaker 1: see those not just repeated by the Mirror. You know,

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Speaker 1: for example, the Guardian pretty well respected paper, not someone

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Speaker 1: something would consider just like a tabloid generally. And here's

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Speaker 1: their summary from a recent article about the Iceman. Wim

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Speaker 1: Hoff is known as the Iceman. He earned his name

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Speaker 1: after setting twenty six Guinness World records, which includes swimming

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Speaker 1: under ice, running a half marathon, a of the Arctic Circle, bear,

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Speaker 1: submerging himself in ice for an hour and fifty two minutes,

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Speaker 1: and climbing Mount Kilimanjaro in just shorts and sandals. Now,

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Speaker 1: this will tell you something about like what good journalism

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Speaker 1: is worth versus bad journalism because the amount of things

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Speaker 1: that are correct in that sentence is higher than zero percent. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's good to hear. Yeah, there are four claims in there,

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Speaker 1: and one of them is accurate. Okay, so that's good.

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Speaker 1: Well it's we strive. We strive for a little more

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Speaker 1: and then you can say two of them are accurate,

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Speaker 1: but not in a meaningful way. We'll talk about it later.

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Speaker 1: So mind chik. This is probably a significant surprise to

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Speaker 1: most people who have kind of casually heard about whim

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Speaker 1: because for seven or eight years he's been very good

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Speaker 1: at not just performing feats of endurance, but doing it

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Speaker 1: while hooked up to equipment monitored by actual scientists from

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Speaker 1: like reputable universities who have confirmed some of the health

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Speaker 1: benefits of the breathing techniques he claims to have pioneered.

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Speaker 1: But the real story behind wim Hoff breathing and the

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Speaker 1: man himself is much shadier than that. Now, given that

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Speaker 1: he is a semi beloved figure too many, I want

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Speaker 1: to start us off by making the states clear. But

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Speaker 1: the stake's clear because the breathing techniques that wim uses

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Speaker 1: he did not really invent, but they're not bad, right,

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Speaker 1: He's not like lying about it. There are uses for

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Speaker 1: these techniques. They go back much further than wim Hoff.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about the origins and like, the ice bathing

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Speaker 1: stuff that he does is not inherently bad. There are

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Speaker 1: some potential health benefits to cold water exposure when you

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Speaker 1: do it in certain controlled ways. Right. Again, the way

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Speaker 1: he tends to teach people about it is pretty reckless,

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Speaker 1: but fundamentally there are aspects of the things he teaches

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Speaker 1: that are not like inherently toxic. However, I want to

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Speaker 1: start again by making the stakes clear, which is that

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Speaker 1: there are multiple allegations in court that the irresponsible training

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Speaker 1: methods by Whim and his organization Inner Fire, have led

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Speaker 1: to the deaths of between twelve and fifteen people. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: we are not talking about like, well he's just like

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Speaker 1: bullshits around. We're talking about, like there's body count for

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Speaker 1: this episode, right, That's why we're talking about the guy.

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Speaker 1: If he was a dude who just got like some

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Speaker 1: rich people from Santa Monica to like do ice bats

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Speaker 1: and like particularly right, I have a lot of respect

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Speaker 1: for that. Yeah, yeah, well that's fine. I don't take

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Speaker 1: their money. I don't give a shit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a lot of respect for the guy

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Speaker 3: on the one wheel who gets rich people to crawl

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Speaker 3: on their backs along train tracks.

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Speaker 1: He's absolutely, absolutely, like, I got no problem with those

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Speaker 1: guys who do those like fake Navy seal trainings that

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Speaker 1: convince like, I don't know, finance bros in their thirties

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Speaker 1: to like, yeah, crawl backwards over train tracks, like you said, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: finance whatever praxies there, willing has been ten grand to

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Speaker 1: do that for four days. Gives a shit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the best thing they could be doing with

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Speaker 3: that time and money, if we're honest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah now. Wim Hoff was born on April twentieth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine, in Sittard Limberg, the Netherlands. He was

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Speaker 1: one of ten children and is also a twin. In

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Speaker 1: his book The Way of the Iceman, he claims he

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Speaker 1: came out as something of a surprise. Quote. After his

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Speaker 1: mother had given birth to his twin brother Andre, no

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Speaker 1: one noticed that a second child was on the way.

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Speaker 1: When the doctors had left, his mother started to feel

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Speaker 1: contractions coming on again. His mother, a Catholic, prayed the

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Speaker 1: second child would also be born healthy. She expressed the

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Speaker 1: hope that if it were healthy, the child would grow

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Speaker 1: up to be a missionary. WiM's mother told this story regularly,

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Speaker 1: and Wim believed the circumstances of his birth and his

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Speaker 1: mother's strength had a great influence on him. So that's

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Speaker 1: his claim right born to be a missionary. You know,

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Speaker 1: his mom prayed him into being divine, he chose, mm hmm. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That just strikes me as something to someone who's parent

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Speaker 1: to bullshitting might say, yeah, it does seem like like

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Speaker 1: that might be the case with Whim. So he's not

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Speaker 1: a great writer. In this book, The Way of the

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Speaker 1: Ice Man, he is credited along with Cohen Deong. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, you know, you know these names, it's Danish names,

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Speaker 1: like I'm doing my best here whatever as the author

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Speaker 1: of this book, and I guess the safe assumption is

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Speaker 1: that neither of them are good at writing books. His

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Speaker 1: stories about his early life are inconsistent, although not necessarily conflicting,

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Speaker 1: with the stories that he gives like the stories he

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Speaker 1: gives in this book are inconsistent with stories he's given

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Speaker 1: in interviews and on podcasts, but they don't necessarily conflict.

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Speaker 1: It's just he tells weirdly different stories each time he's

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Speaker 1: asked about his background. It's not one of the with

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Speaker 1: a lot of grifters, it's like, oh, these are all

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Speaker 1: clearly lies, because all of these things can't be true

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Speaker 1: with whim. It's more like, why did you ignore that

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Speaker 1: detail that you included in your book in this recitation

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Speaker 1: of your background, Like that seems kind of using to me.

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Speaker 1: In some interviews, he claims that his father died in

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Speaker 1: a mountaineering accident when he was a young boy, and

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Speaker 1: says that this made him determine to conquer the mountains.

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Speaker 1: Bad lesson to learn from your dad dying mountaineering. By

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Speaker 1: the way, lesson you should learn is respect the mountains.

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Speaker 1: Mountains are very dangerous. You can try and coquer them,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, they lie, fight back. They are much older

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Speaker 1: than you. Yeah. Yeah, they've seen a few people come

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Speaker 1: and go. Yeah's dad. Yeah, including his dad. In the

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Speaker 1: way of the ice Man, though he gives a different

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Speaker 1: story as to why he decides to get into conquering

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Speaker 1: the mountains and doing weird cold weather stuff. Haff was

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Speaker 1: fascinated by the cold from a very early age. One

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Speaker 1: freezing winter's night when he was seven, a neighbor found

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Speaker 1: him in the snow. Strongly attracted by the white landscape,

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Speaker 1: Haff had climbed out of bed, crept outside, and fallen

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Speaker 1: asleep in the snow. If his neighbor had not discovered him,

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Speaker 1: he probably would have frozen to death. I know, man, why, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that seems it's a normal no behavior, seems like congenitally

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Speaker 1: bad assessment. Yeah. Yeah, there's something in the water in

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Speaker 1: the Hoff household which has him to make poor choices. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: something in the Hoff in the male Hoff brain that

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Speaker 1: does not want to pass on their genes. He does

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Speaker 1: not mention his dad dying at all in this book, though,

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Speaker 1: in fact I didn't really come across I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to claim I read this thing like fucking Ulysses, but

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Speaker 1: I did not come across him even talking about his

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Speaker 1: dad here. One thing he is consistent about is that

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Speaker 1: he experimented a lot with the cold as an adolescent.

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Speaker 1: He does bring this up in every interview that he

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Speaker 1: that he discusses. This started with him sitting in the

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Speaker 1: snow for hours and hours at a time, sometimes sleeping

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Speaker 1: outside in the winter without a tint or a sleeping bag.

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Speaker 1: We don't know how much of this is true, but

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Speaker 1: as we'll discuss. He makes other claims later about his

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Speaker 1: fascination with enduring extreme temperatures. When he was thirteen, Whim

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Speaker 1: claims he spent his fall holiday reading a book about psychology,

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Speaker 1: and later wrote the psychological terminology gave birth to my

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Speaker 1: inquisitive mind and the urge to philosophy everything around me.

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Speaker 1: It was then that I began to see the world

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Speaker 1: in a different light, all at once. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: learn about different cultures, traditions, and new languages. Now in

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Speaker 1: the way of the ice Man. He claims that this

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Speaker 1: process started when he was nine, and that his interest

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Speaker 1: was sparked by his older brother, who had hitchtiked around

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Speaker 1: the Middle East and the Far East and came back

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Speaker 1: with strange and wonderful tales. Wim goes on to claim

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Speaker 1: that he was so impressed by how his brother had

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Speaker 1: changed that he stopped listening in church and focused instead

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Speaker 1: on meditation techniques that he'd learned from Hindu and Buddhist texts.

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Speaker 1: He went to school only with a healthy reluctance. He

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Speaker 1: then has his autobiographer describe him as quote a self willed, clever,

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Speaker 1: and cheerful young boy, which I do find a little

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Speaker 1: bit off putting when you're clearly writing this description of

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Speaker 1: yourself as a kid. At least make it up as

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Speaker 1: a quote from someone else.

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Speaker 3: Bro, Yeah, you've gone down that Rabbi hole, like just

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Speaker 3: to continue to fabricate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So the specific meditative practices that Whim was drawn

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Speaker 1: to most is called tumo meditation t ummo, sometimes g tumo,

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Speaker 1: g dash t ummo. These are a set of meditative

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Speaker 1: breathing techniques that are part of the Vajrayana tantric Buddhist practices.

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Speaker 1: Considered in their full context, toumo, which translates to inner

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Speaker 1: fire in Tibetan, is a meditative technique that goes along

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Speaker 1: with visualizations and rituals that are believed to help alleviate

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Speaker 1: mental and physical pain. Tumo breathing has been studied by

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Speaker 1: researchers and it has been shown to allow practitioners to

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Speaker 1: increase their body temperature and for a long time that

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Speaker 1: has been associated with at least temporary relief from a

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Speaker 1: number of ailments. Western researchers have been studying tumo breathing

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Speaker 1: since the early nineteen eighties, but the practices themselves go

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Speaker 1: back a very long time. These are basically different kinds

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Speaker 1: of hyperventilation techniques. Right, So these are things, These are

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Speaker 1: things that go back a long time, this kind of

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Speaker 1: breathing techniques, and there are certain physiological changes that can

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Speaker 1: be useful in some ways that they are tied to.

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Speaker 1: In most versions of this story, Whim will say that

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Speaker 1: his journey from being a guy or to being a

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Speaker 1: guy who spends all of his time in the cold

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Speaker 1: started me was seventeen and he found himself possessed with

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Speaker 1: an inexplicable urge to dive into a half frozen canal

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Speaker 1: in Amsterdam. Here's how he related that story to The Guardian.

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Speaker 1: I was quite a thinker, a philosopher, but one day

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Speaker 1: I felt attracted to the freezing water. I jumped into

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Speaker 1: a canal in Amsterdam and thought, this is it. That

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Speaker 1: deep connection I felt that day was the starting point.

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Speaker 1: Every day for forty five years, I've gone into the cold.

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Speaker 1: And this is more things are a little bit weird

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Speaker 1: because these don't necessarily conflict that like in the earliest

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Speaker 1: versions of his story, he would just say like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: when I was seventeen, I just felt this urge to

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Speaker 1: jump into a canal, and that got me started doing

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Speaker 1: these cold weather exposure, you know, experiments. But in the

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Speaker 1: more recent stuff that he's written or said about his background,

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Speaker 1: he claims that, like, oh, I was like eight or

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Speaker 1: nine and my neighbor just found me sleeping outside in

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Speaker 1: the snow. No one could explain it. Like he keeps

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Speaker 1: pushing the timeline back. Yeah, and like going from like yeah,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of when we have seventeen year old

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Speaker 1: boys feel nurge to do stupid shit, right, It's kind

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Speaker 1: it's kind of the scene quion of being a seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old boy in many ways. But to take it

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Speaker 1: from like, yeah, from birth, I was like attracted to

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Speaker 1: the cold because I'm specialist. Kind of my version of

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Speaker 1: this is that when I was seventeen, I felt an

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Speaker 1: overpowering urge to pour an entire pint glass of a

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Speaker 1: fucking jim bean and see what happens if I drink

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Speaker 1: it all at once. How did I go for you, Robert?

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Speaker 1: You know, I developed a new set of meditative breathing

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Speaker 1: techniques that I could teach you for just twelve thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: He breathed from the stomach upwards and with the content so.

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Speaker 1: Shallowly on my side while while while coughing up vomit. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's the that's the real technique. You will not notice

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Speaker 1: if you're in the cold. What's true. Once you're drunk enough,

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Speaker 1: once you've alcohol poisoned yourself and becomes secondary concerned alcohol

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Speaker 1: poison yourself to better health. That's that's my breathing technique.

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Speaker 1: So he goes into a bit more detail about his

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Speaker 1: journey here in a Discovery magazine interview from a few

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Speaker 1: years ago. Even today, he has a difficult time explaining

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Speaker 1: the impulse. I felt this attraction to the cold water,

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Speaker 1: he says, and then after I went in, I felt

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Speaker 1: this understanding, an inside connection. It gave me a rush.

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Speaker 1: My mind was free of gibberish. It was so good,

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Speaker 1: in fact, that he returned the next day to take

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Speaker 1: the plunge again, and he continued through the winter and beyond,

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Speaker 1: along the way, evolving his breathing technique, which is based

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Speaker 1: on the centuries old Tibetan Buddhist practice known as Tumo meditation,

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Speaker 1: but features none of its spiritual trappings. Now, this canal

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Speaker 1: story is present in basically every interview where Wim talks

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Speaker 1: about his past, but oddly enough, he doesn't list it

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Speaker 1: as part of his journey in the Way of the Iceman.

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Speaker 1: There he goes for a more exotic story, claiming that

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Speaker 1: he traveled to India as a young adult to find

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Speaker 1: a teacher who knew more about what was really important

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Speaker 1: in life. His biographer insists to us he was looking

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Speaker 1: for a deeper spiritual understanding. And I feel like I

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Speaker 1: have to read the next couple paragraphs of this to

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Speaker 1: you verbatim so you can truly appreciate how insufferable this

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Speaker 1: man is. James. He flew to Karachi and took a

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Speaker 1: train to New Delhi in search of yogis. He slept

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Speaker 1: in the enormous Berla Mandir Temple complex. He met the

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Speaker 1: owner of a tea house and the rebellious son of

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Speaker 1: a carpet magnate. There these two men persuaded Hoff to

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Speaker 1: accompany them to Rishikesh and Badrinath, two places of pilgrimage

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Speaker 1: on the Ganges. This colorful trio set off together a

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Speaker 1: strong bearded Sia Kuran, a tea house, a black sheet

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Speaker 1: from the carpet industry who could get anything he wanted,

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Speaker 1: and he was fed up with the corruption of his

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Speaker 1: world and haff They thought Hoff was crazy because he

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Speaker 1: went swimming in the Ganges a couple of times a day.

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Speaker 1: Hoff even swam across to the other side no mean

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Speaker 1: feet given the strong current. He was also impressed. He

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Speaker 1: also impressed them with the acrobatic yoga exercises he could do,

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Speaker 1: despite never having had a yoga lesson in his life.

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Speaker 1: In India, Haff discovered that his autodidactic approach had already

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Speaker 1: brought him a long way. He could already stand on

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Speaker 1: one leg and put the other leg behind his neck,

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Speaker 1: a position many people left to practice for years to master.

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Speaker 1: His traveling companions remained behind in an ashram, but Haff

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Speaker 1: didn't feel at home there. He didn't like the klingi

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Speaker 1: cozy atmosphere of the foreign participants, and although many of

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00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: the yogis had learned very special techniques, he didn't like

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Speaker 1: the way they profited from them. He also discovered that

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Speaker 1: he could not learn much from them, as he had

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Speaker 1: already mastered their tricks. He continued his travels alone on foot,

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Speaker 1: just me just the best. Why I went to India,

383
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 1: But I knew more than all of the teachers, and

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Speaker 1: they were doing it for money, which is bad unlike me,

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Speaker 1: who's I am pure fucking celebrity guru.

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Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I'm soiled killing people in the swimming pools.

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00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 3: We've all met this guy as well, right, absolutely, anyone

388
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,000
Speaker 3: who has left the United States has encountered this guy

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Speaker 3: in some place in the global South.

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Speaker 1: They are insufferable. Also, I love that he's like they

391
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: were mystified that I swam in the Ganji. I was like, man,

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Speaker 1: I've been to Rishikesh. I have swam in the ganjis

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Speaker 1: in the Rishikesh I know exactly where he did. It's

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Speaker 1: not that you got to be careful, right, Sometimes the

395
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 1: current is too much, Right, there are times that you

396
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,320
Speaker 1: don't want to be swimming in the ganjis. But like

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Speaker 1: Rishikesh is up in the far north, it's in the

398
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 1: Himalayan foothills, it's relatively clean. Lots of people swim and

399
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,160
Speaker 1: raft in the gangs up there. Not weird to see

400
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 1: people doing it. No one's going to be like, oh,

401
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,359
Speaker 1: white man swimming in the Ganges. Like we're not talking

402
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,920
Speaker 1: about being like down like fucking south of Delhi where

403
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 1: you've got a lot of affluvia in it, and it's

404
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,680
Speaker 1: a lot like less safe to swim in the ganjis

405
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 1: because like you've got cities and stuff like you are

406
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 1: talking about a place where a lot of people do this. Anyway, whatever, Whim,

407
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,959
Speaker 1: come on the Hoff.

408
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 3: Yeah he used his last name, that Hoff, giving himself

409
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,639
Speaker 3: a little stolen hoff Fata.

410
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 1: Yeah that's right, that's right. So in this version of events,

411
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Speaker 1: Wim describes feeling an overpowering urge to leap under a

412
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Speaker 1: massive waterfall. The water was so cold it stopped him

413
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 1: from being able to think. Quote, the sensation of a

414
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 1: strength and power greater than himself took hold of him.

415
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Speaker 1: Since then, he has loved ice cold water. So now

416
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: we're at like three or four different stories about like

417
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Speaker 1: how he came to experiment with ice cold water emerging.

418
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Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, yeah, it does clear the mind. I went, like,

419
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 1: I remember, I think I have plunged into the waterfall

420
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 1: he's talking about, if it's the one that's a little

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00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 1: north of Rishikesh.

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Speaker 3: Right, he just didn't turn me into a giant rift.

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Speaker 3: Like my first experience with extremely cold water, I think

424
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 3: was I was pack rafting in Alaska and we stopped

425
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Speaker 3: on like a chunk of an iceberg, and because I'm

426
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 3: a boy, I pissed from the top of it, right,

427
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 3: because that's the sort of standard operating procedure. And then

428
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,399
Speaker 3: from there I jumped off it into the water having

429
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 3: not done up the like the relief zipper on on

430
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 3: the on the dry suit, and it certainly clears the

431
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 3: mind when you when you hit water which is like

432
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 3: just above freezing.

433
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: Yes, it's dangerous too, you know, dangerous out You gotta

434
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 1: be real careful with the water. In that moment, it

435
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: felt pretty dangerous. I didn't want to go back. That's

436
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: that's that's smart, James. But you know who can never die?

437
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 3: Uh Elon musk Uh.

438
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 1: That remains yet to be seen. But our sponsors of

439
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: our podcast, all of them are willing to fight Elon

440
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 1: in a steel cage at the house. Yeah yeah, at

441
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 1: their house if if you're in also, I am. By

442
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 1: the way, Elon, let's let's go, buddy. It has been

443
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: thrown down.

444
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, and the weird back.

445
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 2: I would bet on you.

446
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: Thank you me too, thank you, Sophie. I would also

447
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: bet on me against Elon.

448
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 3: Would you do it like full duel style? Would you

449
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 3: like let him pick the weapons and then look, because

450
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 3: that's that's the if you issue a challenge, he should

451
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 3: be picking the weapons, right, sure, why not?

452
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 1: What if he chooses Teslas? Oh then we'll both die? Yeah,

453
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: I got you children? Uh yeah, fine, you'll go down

454
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: a hero. Yeah, yeah, the way I always wanted to. So.

455
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: Soon after which, again, if you're taking the claim that

456
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 1: he encountered coldwater immersion in fucking India, then soon after

457
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: this he decides to go home, having learned everything he

458
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 1: can from mysticism in Southeast Asia and decided to go

459
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: home and devote himself to unlocking the powerful spiritual benefits

460
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: of being in cold water. He returns home to Amsterdam

461
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: at age twenty, and he sets up in a squat

462
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: with about ninety other people. By his own description, he

463
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: ate very little food and mostly did yoga, avoiding the

464
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: drugs the other squatters did. Now, I might say that

465
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: starving yourself and doing yoga for twenty hours a day

466
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: could theoretically be less healthy for you than just doing

467
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: some fucking k and eating schwarma, but that's a personal choice.

468
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: People are allowed to do whatever. So he seems to

469
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: have basically spent this time busking by teaching yoga in

470
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: the park, which is again fine. And one day, while

471
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: he's doing this, this thing that he had also criticized

472
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: these Indian yogis for, by the way, kind of worth

473
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: note in taking money. Yeah, he meets his future wife,

474
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 1: Oleah Fernandez. She moves in with him, and he claims

475
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: for a year they didn't have sex, which I was

476
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: not going to ask about, h yeah in the book. Yeah,

477
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: but he wants us to know. So now we have

478
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: to fucking interrogate this. Yeah, let's go, he says. He

479
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: does explain why they didn't fuck, and it's because, quote

480
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: Hoff's what life was devoted to yoga, and his Spanish

481
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: girlfriend respected that. And I always, I always find it

482
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: a little weird. It's fine if you're like, he met

483
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 1: his wife, you know, a basque woman from from you know,

484
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: Spain or whatever. Okay, Like that's that's fine for whatever reason,

485
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: Just like the way, just like describing her as his

486
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: Spanish girlfriend, I do find slightly off putting. Yeah, I

487
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: can't exactly tell you why. Yeah, she's like a character

488
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: in a story he's telling him by himself. Yeah, we'll

489
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: be talking about her a bit. So she goes home

490
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: after they're together for like a very sexless year, according

491
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: to Whim, and the next thing that happens in his

492
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: life that he talks about in his book is a

493
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: bike trip to Senegal, which is very spiritual to him.

494
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,959
Speaker 1: I don't care. It's very boring, James. His spiritual journey

495
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: is boring his ass. I much prefer like I don't

496
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: know l Ron Hubbard's. But he claims after Senegal he

497
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: goes back to India and he studies under Yogi's this time,

498
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: I guess he finds someones that have lessons to teach him.

499
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: Still non profit yogis, Yeah, nonprofit yogis. We have no idea,

500
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: no way of knowing if any of this is true.

501
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: But given how inconsistent his story is, I'm going to

502
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: throw serious doubt on this next passage quote. He trained

503
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: his body in mind under extreme conditions. Sometimes he spent

504
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: several days at great heights while enduring temperatures of negative

505
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: two degrees without food negative two degrees celsius without food.

506
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: He discovered a new way to survive the extreme cold,

507
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 1: controlling his breathing. With breathing exercises, he could transform his

508
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: fear and the negative experience of the cold into a

509
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: powerful form of energy. He saw his body in a

510
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 1: new way and learned that breathing is an important instrument.

511
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: This was also where he learned his breathing exercises. So

512
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't believe that, but that's one

513
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: of the claims that he makes about his background. He

514
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 1: tells different stories in other mediums. In some interviews, he

515
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: claims that he learned to control his body temperature through

516
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: diving in the freezing canals and other cold weather exercise

517
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: in the Netherlands. I'm not sure that's how that works.

518
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: It is not how that works, but here's how he made.

519
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: I want to read a claim that he makes in

520
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: a Reddit ama that this guy sounds powerfully Reddit. He

521
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: makes some fascinating claims in his AMA. So here's iceman Hoff.

522
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: Because our natural ability to withstand cold makes us not

523
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: able to freeze and not go below zero degrees. If

524
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: your cells go below that temperature, you get a reparable damage.

525
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: If you exposure self for that temperature, your body knows

526
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: what to do to not freeze. The body is able

527
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: to go to the extremities besides the core, which remains

528
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 1: thirty seven degrees. I can do all that stuff. I

529
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: trained with kung fu masters in Beijing and they respected

530
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 1: me very much. Kung kung fu masters in Beijing just

531
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: throws that out there in the reddit. Enemy. I haven't

532
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: seen that elsewhere, but I guess in between the yogis

533
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: and the top of mountains, he went and trained with

534
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: some kung fu masters stew and then they respected me

535
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: very much. Fuck me. The orientalism is so profound, it

536
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: is out it is outstanding orientalism. He missed travel to

537
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 1: the eighteen forties to get orientalism like this normally. Yeah,

538
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: this guy could have crushed it and oh my god,

539
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: he would have been huge. Yeah yeah, like he could

540
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: been on some learns for Arabia shit, but he would

541
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: have been almost to god until he died of fucking

542
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: tetanus at age thirty seven ye bacterian infection from the Thames,

543
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: trying to show off his breathing techniques. And it's very so.

544
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: He says that, like I trade with kung fu masters,

545
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: they respected me very much. The response, the one Reddit

546
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: response whom jam Brooklyn is just very inspiring. Thank you.

547
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, fuck me. He's really getting high on his

548
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: own supply here, believably so. And again yeah. So. One

549
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: of the things I find intriguing about whim is that

550
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: this is not the kind of situation we see all

551
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: the time where grifter kind of workshops a version of

552
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: their life story and there are inconsistencies in the past,

553
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: and then they pick a story and stick with it, right,

554
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: And if you dig into it you can find like, oh,

555
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: they used to tell a different story, but they tend to,

556
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: like when they get famous, stick with a version of events, right,

557
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: because that's the smart thing to do. What's interesting to

558
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: me about what he's so inconsistent still to this day

559
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: with like his exact journey and like when he had

560
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: his revelations and when he got inspired to do what

561
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: just very interesting to me how he has drunk guide

562
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: to ba and she has not like experienced scrift or energy. Yeah,

563
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: which I think is probably part of what works for

564
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: him is that he does seem a little bit less

565
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: polished than some of these more explicit con men. Yes, yeah,

566
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: he's not like aodh and he doesn't look like like

567
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: he's not If people are watching there listening to this,

568
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: and like they haven't looked at wim Hoff, you want

569
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: to look at wim Hoff because it's not the extreme

570
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: mountain athlete you're probably thinking of. No, No, he does

571
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: kind of look like a normal man in his fifties

572
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: from you know this part of the world, so up

573
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: to the present day, he continues to give different anecdotes

574
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: about his path to figuring out his special breathing techniques.

575
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: The Way of the Iceman came out in twenty seventeen,

576
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: but you can find articles from the twenty twenties where

577
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: he tells the Canals story instead. I do find that

578
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: book to be the most interesting version of his backstory,

579
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: in part because of how badly written and off putting

580
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: it is. So after his time in Senegal, Wim breaks

581
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: up the narrative with a message to the reader, which

582
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: basically says, Hey, we know you're probably wondering why we're

583
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: getting all these bullshit stories about spiritualism and shit and

584
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: a book ostensibly about breath control exercises. Don't worry, we'll

585
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: tell you soon. But first quote, we must share the

586
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: sad story of Whim's wife, Olayah. You ready for this, James,

587
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: I don't think I am. You are not ready for this.

588
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: It's impossible to be ready for this. Hit me with

589
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: the Yeah, I'm going to hit you with my best shot,

590
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: so fire away. That is a peculiar way of introducing

591
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: what will prove to be a very dark story. So

592
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: before going back to India to study with Yogi's, maybe

593
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: Haff returned to Amsterdam and met with Oleya. They got

594
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: married and they had a son in nineteen eighty three,

595
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: presumably after he got back from studying in the mountains

596
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: with Yogi's, although he doesn't say. They had two daughters

597
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: soon after. But it was too cold for Olea in

598
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: the Netherlands, so they moved to the Pyrenees and Wilm

599
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: got it a job teaching English. Now. Whim claims that

600
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: he took to mountain climbing up in the Pyrenees with

601
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: basically no gear. He'd go up in like shorts and

602
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: shoes and nothing else and stuff as a hobby, right,

603
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: so that he could he could just feel alive. He's

604
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: got to like go up there without proper safety equipment,

605
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: otherwise he doesn't. He's not on the edge. He's not alive.

606
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: Now this pisses off his wife because they have three

607
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: children together, and she's like, you are taking dumb risks

608
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,479
Speaker 1: with your life for no reason, and like we have

609
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: kids that we're responsible for. Would you give us a

610
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: fact criticism if you're just a dude and your hobby

611
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: is risking your life in unnecessary ways. You got a

612
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: right to do that, you know, Yeah, to a point,

613
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: as long as you're not endangering other people with it.

614
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: When you have three kids with someone, you are kind

615
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: of a dick for continuing to do that is a

616
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: douche move. Yeah, like you have a responsibility. Now, you

617
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: gotta at least get those kids out the door before

618
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: you go back to your suicide.

619
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: How did your father die? Yeah, well he was hiking

620
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: in his box of shorts in the parodies, being a.

621
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: Dumb ass, and so I here him every day by

622
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: continuing his legacy being a stupid asshole in the mouth.

623
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 3: I like to ghost ride my car.

624
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, now now you say that, James, Actually you

625
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: may be unaware of this. Ghost riding the whip is

626
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: the most reliable way to treat uh uh chemo resistant

627
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: forms of cancer. Oh fruscinating. Yeah, doctors agree. It's really

628
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: the most antioxidant rich activity you can engage in. Ghost

629
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: riding your car. Yeah, bigger the car, the better. Just

630
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: rent an eighteen wheeler and and just fucking get that

631
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: thing going downhill and then just tuck and roll. Baby. Okay,

632
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: you you actually okay, you don't go right on top

633
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: of it. You that is actually more terrorism. Actually, hey,

634
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: when I think of it, that.

635
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: This bit is bad. Shut the fuck up.

636
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: Uh huh, that's is that, Sophie. You don't you don't

637
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: like no ghost writing? You don't like ghostwriting?

638
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: No, I don't. I don't like uh fake wink cancer.

639
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: Oh I love a good fake cancer here, Sophie. That's

640
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: like our bread and butter. Yeah, none of us would

641
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: have jobs if people didn't have fakes for answer, Sophie, Yeah, yes,

642
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: but no. Okay, Well, Sophie doesn't like my retirement plan,

643
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: but that's not going to stop me from retiring. Uh

644
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: so where were we? Just like, no one's going to

645
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: stop that wheeler rob it rub the energy of a

646
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: least truck paraly down the freeway, gets pissed at him

647
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: for risking his life when they've got kids together, pointlessly

648
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 1: uh And eventually he agrees to stop doing his suicide

649
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: climbs and instead devotes his free time to learning how

650
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: to hold his breath underwater. Eventually he gets up to

651
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: six minutes. Now. When I first read that, I was like,

652
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: that sounds like bullshit. I don't think people can hold

653
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: their breath that long. Turns out they can. Yeah, it's

654
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: actually totally doable. I was when I was looking this up.

655
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: You know what, the longest anyone's ever held their breath

656
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: for underwater eight minutes twenty four fun. Now, that is

657
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: the longest anyone's done it with oxygen pre breathing. Right, Okay,

658
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: it's not like they're not like raw Dog in it

659
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: right there in Haley pure O two before. But still,

660
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 1: that's fucking wild. That is wild. It's like whale numbers

661
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: a half man, half dolphin. Yeah, without pre breathing. The

662
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: record is eleven minutes and fifty four seconds, which is

663
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: fucking nuts. That is so long to hold bad.

664
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, get bored, like you got to work onto mind

665
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 3: exercises to think of Sudoku down there, something.

666
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: Taxes or some shit. Yeah, so it's plausible. Whim very

667
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: likely probably can do something like this, given some of

668
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: the other stuff I've seen him do. So I'll give

669
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: them that. In the way of the Ice Man, he

670
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: claims that around this time, while he's spending god knows

671
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: how long preparing to hold his breath underwater, his wife

672
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: starts disappearing for periods of time because she is severely depressed,

673
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: and she will regularly threatened to commit suicide. He says

674
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: that they returned to Amsterdam because he no longer felt

675
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: safe with her in their farmhouse, which is very sad.

676
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,439
Speaker 1: This is to some extent true. They have another kid though,

677
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: while this is all going on, and then after they

678
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: have this last kid, Olea abandons them again for a

679
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: period of time. Now in numerous other storeses sources, he

680
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: says that Oleah was eventually diagnosed with schizophrenia. This includes

681
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen in the Way of the Iceman. He

682
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: also will sometimes just say that she was depressed. Obviously,

683
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: both of those things can go together. She does eventually

684
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: commit suicide, and this is very bleak. I want to

685
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: first read to you how that story is related in

686
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: a twenty seventeen Rolling Stone article, and then I'm going

687
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: to read how it's related in his book, because the

688
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: differences between the two of them are fascinating. So here's

689
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: that Rolling Stone article. Okay hit me. One day in

690
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, after kissing her four children goodbye, she

691
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: jumped off the eighth floor of an apartment building. A

692
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 1: bit later, Hoff had a vision in which he saw

693
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: how his breathing technique could help people like his wife.

694
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: I can bring people back to tranquility. He once said,

695
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: my method can give them back control. So that's yeah,

696
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: very paragraph. That's just a choice, that is, that is

697
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: a series of choices. See, man, there, I think i'd

698
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: write that. Yes, fucked up in my mind, but you

699
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: know whatever, not worth getting into too much there. Yeah,

700
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: my judgment on the matter. But here's how he relates

701
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: the same story in his twenty seventeen book The Way

702
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: of the Iceman. One day, when Hoff was alone in

703
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: the mountains, Olea jumped from the eighth floor of her parents'

704
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: house in Pamplona. Olea was dead. Jennam, Isabelle, Laura and

705
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: Michael lost their mother, and Wim lost his wife. He

706
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: felt guilty and the children were devastated. Hoff devoted himself

707
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: to caring for his children, occasionally retreating to be alone

708
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: with nature to recharge his batteries. In those years, he

709
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: was a well known figure in the Vondel Park. With

710
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: ropes and ballet equipment, he showed young children how to

711
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: climb the highest trees. The children learned that they could

712
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: do more than they thought was possible. Hoff enjoyed the

713
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: natural surroundings, even in the heart of Amsterdam. Later, wim

714
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: remarried and had another son, So that's also a paragraph,

715
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: quite a page or whatever that just gets across. First,

716
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: how odd reading Whim's different life stories can be. Again,

717
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: they're not necessarily in conflict with each other, but they

718
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: all are so different in terms of what is emphasized

719
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: and claimed that it does feel peculiar and spoilers. In

720
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: both of those versions of the wim Hoff story, he

721
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: leaves out some very fucking important details which we are

722
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: about to get into. But James, you know what we're

723
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 1: going to get into first? Is it some advertising? Oh,

724
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 1: we are sure going to get James, you know what

725
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: I love about capitalism? No? Actually, no, please enlighten me.

726
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: Oh man, oh wow. First off, the fact that content

727
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: can be supported with ads. That's wonderful, which is a

728
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: sustainable situation. I was just thinking the other day, you know,

729
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: it would be a great way to run newspapers, make

730
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 1: it import That's a stable way to make sure people

731
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: have access to the best news at all times.

732
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 3: And it helps because they sort of the press holds

733
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 3: people in power to account. So it's important that it's

734
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: also advertising.

735
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Critical Critical, So be a part of that

736
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: by buying whoever it is you you hear from next

737
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: you know, if it's a Reagan coin, it's the Washington

738
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol. Send them money. Just send money to

739
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: a random phone number on Venmo. You know what type

740
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: numbers and VINDI and the spreads and joy spreads and

741
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: joy will you than the Reagan guy if you've got

742
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: a pot of money and you're thinking about what to

743
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: send it random Venmo? James, I don't think it's responsible

744
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 1: to advise our listeners not to invest in Reagan coins.

745
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 3: Because they will be quadrupling in value.

746
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure it. Is it a crypto type coin or

747
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: is it a physical I don't know. There's fiscal coin.

748
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: I skipped through that ship. You didn't read the pdf.

749
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 2: Hey, here's an idea.

750
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 4: How about people don't do that and they they subscribe

751
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 4: if they are able and want to to cooler zon media,

752
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 4: and then they don't get any ads.

753
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 3: Wow, or alternatively these drawings of monkeys that you can

754
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: buy on the internet. That's a great thing to spend

755
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: your money on.

756
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: James, no way.

757
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: I have reinvested the whole company pension plan into smart

758
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: because we have.

759
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: We totally have that, mm hmm.

760
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 3: And that's why our motto is the fast Diana.

761
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: I got an incredible deal on Jimmy Fallon's monkey dry

762
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: This is it on the boat? Yeah, it could be

763
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: on a boat. That's up to you.

764
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 4: You can.

765
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: We only write your monkey drawing nice anyway. And I

766
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: must paint and update that bad boy now products we're back.

767
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: So I've just read two different claims or versions of

768
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: the story of Whim's wife, Oliah's suicide, and this brings

769
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: me to a fella named Scott Carney. Now, in addition

770
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: to having a funny name, Scott is an American journalist.

771
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: He is an author and anthropologist who, in my opinion,

772
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: made some serious moral lapses as a reporter when he

773
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: started writing about whim Hoff. We'll be talking about that

774
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: in more detail in Part two. He says that he

775
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: met wim while working on a book about the Enlightenment

776
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: and the spiritualism grift industry. This is a critical book

777
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: about like guru grifters, right, like the guy and the

778
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: guy that wim Hoff is, right, who's writing this book.

779
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: But he becomes kind of enraptured with women, particularly with

780
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: how well his breathing technique works, so he writes an

781
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: article and then eventually a book on wim In Scott's

782
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: work like writing on whim is a big part of

783
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: like why wim Hoff becomes famous, right he Scott plays

784
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: a significant role in sort of the birth of him

785
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 1: as a major media figure. He has come to regret

786
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: aspects of the role he played here, largely because of

787
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: all those deaths. Well, the people definitely died. It's alleged

788
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 1: that wim Hoff's training has as and there's fourth cases

789
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: currently continuing. So he seems to have come to regret

790
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: some of this, and he wrote a blog post recently

791
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 1: called the Rise and Fall of the wim Hoff Empire,

792
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: which we will be referring back to several times in

793
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: these episodes. That article includes a very different story about

794
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: Oliah's death and particularly what happened after. So again in

795
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:58,959
Speaker 1: you know, just going back to the book, he says

796
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: that you know, well, he was devastated obviously after his

797
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: wife committed suicide, and he devoted himself to caring for

798
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: his children and like teaching other kids in the park

799
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: and whatnot in order to deal with his grief. And

800
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: then later whim we married and had another son. That's

801
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: the version that the book gives, broadly in line with

802
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: what he usually says in interviews. Most versions of the

803
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: wim Hoff story make a big deal about the fact

804
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: that his wife commits suicide and he is left to

805
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: raise their four children alone as a single father. Obviously,

806
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 1: that is a noteworthy thing about anyone's life who has

807
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: a similar cher. I can imagine very few experiences or

808
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: in situations more difficult in demanding than being left as

809
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: a single parent to raise four kids alone. That's a

810
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: very difficult thing to deal with, very much worth mentioning

811
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: in someone's biography, I would say, much more impressive than

812
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: hiking up a mountain in shorts. Yes, perhaps more beneficial, yes, yeah. Now.

813
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: In a video interview with WMX Presents, currently about two

814
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: point one million views, wim says this about his wife's

815
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: death children. I had with my wife, and I was

816
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: to be with her forever. She was the love of

817
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: my life. She died, She suicided. It's a black hole

818
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: within yourself. It breaks your heart and you don't know why,

819
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: but the train of daily life is going on and

820
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 1: you've got to catch up otherwise you lose it. So

821
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: I had to be there for my children. And yes

822
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 1: we created a new nest. My children made me survive

823
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: in that time, but nature healed my wounds. So again,

824
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: very focused on the idea that he bravely takes on

825
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: his kids and they help each other heal after this.

826
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: That is not the version of the story that Scott

827
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: Carney gives in this ride up quote. After his wife's death,

828
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 1: he began a relationship with a woman in another city

829
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: and left his kids to survive alone in a squat

830
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: house in Amsterdam. The eldest Innam was only fifteen years

831
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: old when he became the family's surrogate dad. Eventually, Hoff's

832
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: relationship with the woman ended, and he found himself with

833
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: a thirty thousand euro tax debt that seemed to be

834
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: the impetus to reconnect with his family. Ah there we go, Oh,

835
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: there we go. Now we got some of that classic

836
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: bas abandoning your family and then coming back to get

837
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: pay your tax bill. Ah, there we go. That's that

838
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: good ship you feel that deep in your that's like

839
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: as like the spiritual equivalent of a nice bowl of

840
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: gaspacho right where you just feel it filling you up,

841
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: nourishing you. Yeah, I love it.

842
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I think about when I think about

843
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 3: someone abandoning that children.

844
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: That's the exact noise I make. That is why I

845
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: do this podcast. Yeah, the joy that spots in your

846
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: eyes was really made it for me. Now that's that's

847
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: bad person shit, right, Yes, look a douche move. I

848
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: have a lot of empathy for someone who loses a spouse.

849
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: There's a lot of bad behavior, even that can be

850
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 1: justified by just the madness of grief. But abandoning your

851
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: children to go shack up with somebody else and leaving

852
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: them alone in a squat with your fifteen year old

853
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: not acceptable behavior. You have a possibility to do better

854
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: than that for your kids. Oh wow, Yeah, and then

855
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: you just admit that from all his own rent should

856
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: just start know we saved each other man, you were

857
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: fuck you bounced Tomy. Now it gets even weirder than that, though,

858
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: because once he decided he needed to get back in

859
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 1: touch with his family, he asks his second oldest son,

860
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: because his oldest son is pissed about being made dad suddenly, yeah,

861
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: he asks his second oldest boy, Michael, to meet him

862
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 1: in the Vandell Park in Amsterdam. Quote, haff arrived early

863
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: and went for a swim in the park's pond. While

864
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 1: he was waiting, he paddled out for a fountain and

865
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: positioned himself over the spout to give himself an enema

866
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: he thought would cleanse out all of his destines or is.

867
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: He often likes to say, get the shit out. Well, yeah, well,

868
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: first off, you're a bastard for doing that in a

869
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: public fountain. You don't give yourself an innima in a

870
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: public fountain. You're gonna get your shit everywhere. You fucked

871
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: up that soil.

872
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 3: Oh, that literally hurts everyone involved, Like what who does that?

873
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: A fucking piece of asshole, A bastard.

874
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 3: That is not a normal maneuver.

875
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to continue that quote. A recording of one

876
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: of our conversations in twenty thirteen, Hoff recounts that he

877
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: had done the park fountain enema at least one hundred

878
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: times to work ray but unbeknownst but that unbeknownst to him,

879
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: the park Service had changed the spigott on the fountain

880
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: to spray the narrower gauge some water, cutting through his

881
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: intestines like a knight filling his bows with dirty water.

882
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: He managed to make it back to store to shore

883
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: while blood and feces leaked from his rectum. Hoff's first

884
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: words to his son in a decade where that he

885
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: needed to go to a hospital.

886
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 3: I would not welcome that man back into my life

887
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: at that point. I'm just gonna say that walk away.

888
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: Your dad bounces to shack up with somebody you don't

889
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 1: know and leaves your fifteen year old brother in charge

890
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: after your mom kills herself, and the first time you

891
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 1: see him, he's crawling across the ground, blood and shit

892
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: looking out of him because he gave himself a fountain

893
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 1: in a up before hanging out. Yeah, better off done,

894
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: like did walk away? I like to hospital by Yeah,

895
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: this is all you, buddy. I love the Dutch park

896
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: service employee who saw this ninety nine times in red

897
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: lights wasn't going to be one hundred deep and then

898
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,879
Speaker 1: to that shit immediately. I do love ye adding that story. Yeah,

899
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: I want to hear him.

900
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 3: Someone to a pr for the man who replaced that spigot.

901
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: He's giving on cool people next week.

902
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: So Scott climes that he pressed whim about, like, why

903
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: did you really decide to give yourself a fountain enema? Right?

904
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 4: Like?

905
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 1: Because Scott doesn't believe that he would have accidentally hurt

906
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: himself on the fountain without knowing it could be dangerous. Quote.

907
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: I asked Kauf if he had an inclination that the

908
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: fountain maneuver might hurt him, and whether hurting himself before

909
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,439
Speaker 1: meeting his son might have been a way to show

910
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: his remorse for abandoning his children for a decade. You

911
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: get the feeling that you want to kill yourself and

912
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: want to end the story, not deliberately, but unconsciously, stop

913
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: this shit, even if you have to die. Something like

914
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: that was going on. Hoff said, so either if you

915
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,720
Speaker 1: take kind of what they're saying, he felt so bad

916
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: that he felt like he had to do this to

917
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: kind of like express the sorrow in his heart, and

918
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: because he was so guilty for his failures. I kind

919
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 1: of think maybe he knew that his kids had very

920
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: valid reason to be angry at him, and he fucking

921
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: decided that the best thing he could do was injure

922
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,959
Speaker 1: himself in order that they would feel bad for him,

923
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 1: so that he wouldn't have to deal with the actual

924
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: guilt that he has for failing them. Like I kind

925
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: of think this was another emotionally abusive thing by him

926
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 1: where he's like, well, yeah, if I fuck myself up,

927
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: then they can't be angry at me, right because they'll

928
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: have it will have to be dealing with this health problem.

929
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 3: I will say, that's why the methodology is still fascinating

930
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 3: to me.

931
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: Either way. Yeah, it's not not good decision making. Nobody's

932
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 1: gotta claim that.

933
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 3: You could get your foot run over or somethink that

934
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 3: he commit to the bit.

935
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: He sure did so. I was curious as to whether

936
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: or not Whim had discussed his Fountain injury with anyone

937
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: else during his many, many precedents, and I found a

938
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: terrible article in my research from a website called High

939
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: Existence by John Brooks. It is a listical titled thirteen

940
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: crazy facts about Iceman wim Hoff that nobody talks about.

941
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: The cover image is a crude photoshop of Whim's head

942
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: on the Night King from Game of Thrones. Now, oh cool,

943
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: get some good shit. Yeah. I this article and I

944
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: hate John Brooks who wrote it, but it is useful

945
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 1: for our purposes because it is written by a weirdo

946
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: freak who's obsessed with wim Hoff and has spent more

947
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: time listening to his podcast appearances and video interviews than

948
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: I ever will. Here is entry number six on that listicle.

949
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: In the Becoming the Ice Man subreddit, a user asked

950
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: how Wim got the scar over his belly button. He

951
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 1: received this reply About fifteen years ago. Wim was swimming

952
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: at a fountain at Amsterdam and decided to give himself

953
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: an enema on the nozzle of the jet. He says

954
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 1: he has done this before, but a few weeks earlier

955
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: the city altered the jet to have a more powerful spout,

956
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: so when he sat on the hose, the water cut

957
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,240
Speaker 1: through his colon and intestines like a water knife. His son, Michael,

958
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: who he was meeting at the park, took him to

959
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: the er. Whim is a pretty good ability to resist pain,

960
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 1: so the hospital did not tree as him to surgery

961
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: immediately because they didn't understand as serious the injury was.

962
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: After a few hours, he fainted and they realized how

963
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: bad it was. The doctor stitched him up, but rightly

964
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 1: feared the risk of sepsis. It took him a long

965
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 1: time to recover. He says that he used no antibiotics.

966
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: Staring recovery a god always a chance for a grift.

967
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 1: I do love it. They was like, yeah, all they

968
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: say about the fact that this was their first time

969
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: meeting in a decade is his son Michael, who he

970
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 1: was meeting.

971
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 3: At the park y Yeah, yeah, are amazing. What an

972
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 3: amazing way to turn that l into a dub just

973
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 3: being like, yeah, I owned the self inflicted colon injury.

974
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: And here's the thing, the story we just read about

975
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 1: him doing this after abandoning his family, that comes from

976
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: Scott Carney's recorded notes, right. Scott also wrote the subreddit

977
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: post that I just read you. Yeah, So here's what

978
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: follows that version of the story in that post on

979
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 1: the subreddit. How do I know this? I'm Scott Carney,

980
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: author of a book about whim. I didn't include this

981
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: story in the book because how on earth do you

982
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: tell it and not lose track of the main story. Now,

983
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: But that's why you fucking get good at writing, isn't it.

984
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: That's why you get good at writing. Yeah, you don't

985
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: just abandon the fucking story. Like, and again, he's not

986
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: in the subreddit. He's not saying I hid the part

987
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: about him abandoning his family. He's saying I just didn't

988
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: tell about him getting his guts cut up. By a

989
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: water knife, right, But the reality is he hid both

990
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,479
Speaker 1: of those things, right, Scott hides the fact that Wim

991
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: abandons his family and the story about him giving himself

992
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: the death enema. And this is why I think Scott's

993
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: one of our bastards here, right. Yeah, obviously the true story.

994
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: If the version that Scott is now giving is the

995
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,760
Speaker 1: true story, right, we are I have to I assume

996
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: it probably is because Scott is claiming I have this recorded,

997
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: and if he was lying about this, that's a significant

998
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 1: legal liability, right because Scott's not He's putting this up

999
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: on his blog. He's not publishing this through an outlet

1000
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: even who would be, you know, it would be incumbent

1001
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: upon them to represent him. So he better you know.

1002
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah, this Connie's Jetty is kind of

1003
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,439
Speaker 3: fascinating and I don't know if you can ever treat

1004
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: him as truly credible. He has his own kind of

1005
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 3: Oriental origin story that he tells as well.

1006
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I we're not going to get as much

1007
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: in that. We'll talk more about him in the next

1008
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: episode though, But like, yeah, the truth, assuming that the

1009
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: version he is giving now is a true story, it

1010
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:18,919
Speaker 1: paints a story of whom as a profoundly unbalanced man who,

1011
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: whatever else you can say about him, should not be

1012
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: the source of health and wellness advice. I remember one

1013
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: who is habitually giving himself a public enema in a

1014
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: public fountain. That's a man you shouldn't take health advice from.

1015
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 3: Yeah you, Yeah, you can be involuntarily constrained for doing

1016
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 3: that kind of thing.

1017
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 1: That none that should happen to him. I'm not saying

1018
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 1: you should be, but you shouldn't be a health guru. Yes, yeah,

1019
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: I think if you continue to do that after the

1020
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 1: first time, you, yeah, you're not giving good advice to

1021
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:50,839
Speaker 1: the old health Well, you are not someone who can

1022
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: be taken seriously on this sort of thing. Uh, you know,

1023
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: maybe if you try it once when you're dumb and

1024
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 1: young and you learn what a bad idea issue one

1025
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: hundred times yeah, yeah times.

1026
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 3: It's only got a one percent fail rate.

1027
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, really can you afford not to? But yeah,

1028
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: I think it is kind of damning because it's Scott's

1029
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: article today, Like the one that he's written now, I

1030
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: think is a reasonably good article. It does answer a

1031
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: lot of questions about whim, but the fact that he

1032
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: hides all this is really fucked up, and he I

1033
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: think why he does this is that the business that

1034
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: he knows Wim might do as a wellness influencer is

1035
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 1: too enticing to risk fucking up by dropping this story.

1036
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: But here is how Scott explains why he had this.

1037
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: The story of Hoff abandoning his children and his near

1038
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 1: fatal inemin never made it into my own book because

1039
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: both my editor and I wanted to protect Hoff's reputation

1040
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: from evidence of his own madness. It's a role that

1041
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: many other journalists have also fallen into when they might

1042
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: have otherwise doubled down on their fact checking efforts. And like,

1043
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: this is not a fact checking issue, Scott, because he

1044
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 1: admits to doing. You just have to tell the story

1045
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: he's telling here. Yeah, like they didn't have enough time

1046
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 1: and money to fact check it. Like and then he's

1047
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 1: right that other people should maybe have fact checked it.

1048
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: But sure, I'm sure everyone else cited him because especially

1049
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: like health and wellness journalism, let's face it, like this,

1050
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: people aren't fact checking. No, And it's yeah, I think

1051
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: bad of you, Scott.

1052
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I think we can agree. So what a

1053
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 3: good thing to do?

1054
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, to make the claim that other journalists are just

1055
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: as irresponsible as Scott. His next series of quotes from

1056
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: a Joe Rogan interview, and of all the Scott's sins,

1057
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: that may be the greatest. But we're getting ahead of

1058
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: ourselves because James, right now, you know what time? It

1059
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: is anema time. Oh James, we could do an anema

1060
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: right now. Let's do it. Meet in the par you

1061
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 1: know what. You know what, Yes, James and I are

1062
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: going to go do an enema in a public place.

1063
00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 1: I'm dangering other people. And you hang out until Thursday.

1064
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 1: You get your own enema, you know. Find a fountain

1065
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: out there. Go to Disney World. Yeah, we're saying, go

1066
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 1: to the Aria.

1067
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the big Yeah, musical fountains. I'd have him

1068
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 3: lunch week. If you're in Barcelona, they can go to

1069
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 3: musical fountains. Absolutely, go to Dubai. Give yourself a fountain

1070
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 3: anima in Dubai. God, I bet that the police and

1071
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 3: the Emirates will like that. I was going to say,

1072
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 3: that will not end well for.

1073
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: You, James. What have I got to plood? It's interesting.

1074
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 3: I am, despite my better instincts, still on Twitter dot com,

1075
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 3: which you know, James Stout is my name and also

1076
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 3: my Twitter handle. I do a podcast with with you

1077
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 3: and some other wonderful people called it could happen here really, Yeah,

1078
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:48,919
Speaker 3: it happens every day here in your telephone well iPod. Yeah,

1079
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 3: and so Sophia sometimes joined us. We talk about sheep

1080
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 3: and chickens and also Turkish drone strikes in the Autonomous

1081
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 3: Area of North and Eassyria, all kinds of things in

1082
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 3: that in that broad air. Yeah, so that you should

1083
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 3: listen to that. I'm writing a book for ak Press,

1084
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 3: but I'm still writing it, so you can't buy it,

1085
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 3: but buy some other books from Akpress.

1086
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: Very nice people. Yeah, all right, everybody, Everything's good.

1087
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1088
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 2: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia

1089
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 2: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1090
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.