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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind New York Comic Con Stranger Things. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it all comes together on October six from seven pm

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Speaker 1: Your Mind Live Stranger Science as we explore the exciting

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Speaker 1: science and tantalizing pseudo science underlying the hit Netflix show

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Speaker 1: Stranger Things. Stuff you missed in history class has a

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Speaker 1: show right after us in the same venue, so you

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Speaker 1: can really double down on your stuff. And Hey, the

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Speaker 1: three of us would love to meet you. This is

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to do it. Learn more and buy your

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Speaker 1: tickets at New York Comic Con dot com. Slash n

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Speaker 1: y c C hyphen presents Welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: Your Mind from how Stuffworks dot com. Hey he wasn't

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Speaker 1: the Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert

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Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Christian Seger, and this is part two

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Speaker 1: of our Timothy Leary l s D series of episodes.

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Speaker 1: We've already done Part one, where we talk about the

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Speaker 1: basic science behind l s D and psilocybin and the

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Speaker 1: research that's been done using these psychedelic substances. And then

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Speaker 1: we talked about the first part of Timothy Leary's life

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Speaker 1: leading up to his research on this. Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 1: So if you if you missed part one, go back

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Speaker 1: and listen to it, because that's the one that's going

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Speaker 1: to be front loaded with all that LSD science and

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Speaker 1: just the initial period of Leary's life, which which ultimately

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Speaker 1: kind of sets the sets the pace for the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life, like the destruct self destructive behaviors, the patterns,

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Speaker 1: they're all pretty much present before he even you know,

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Speaker 1: gets that finishes his education. So I've been sitting around

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Speaker 1: the house reading about Timothy Leary for the last couple

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Speaker 1: of days and my wife says, out of nowhere, you know,

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Speaker 1: I met him, right, And I was like, no, really,

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Speaker 1: And we both went to college at the University of

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire for undergraduate and before I got there, but

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Speaker 1: while she was there, either as a freshman or sophomore. Uh,

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Speaker 1: Timothy Learry came on one of his infamous campus speaking tours,

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Speaker 1: gave one of his you know, enlightenment talks, and then

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Speaker 1: afterwards my wife was outside the venue just like smoking

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Speaker 1: a cigarette, and Timothy Leary came out and sat down

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Speaker 1: next to her and just smoked a cigarette with her

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Speaker 1: and they chatted for like five or ten minutes, and

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Speaker 1: then he got up and went on his way. They

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Speaker 1: talked about She didn't really say she just said that

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Speaker 1: like he was this kind of kind cool older guy.

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Speaker 1: But when I read about his life and all of

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Speaker 1: the uh sort of women he went through, I can't

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Speaker 1: help but imagine that he's the kind of like old

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Speaker 1: He was the kind of older man who leeringly went

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Speaker 1: up to eighteen year old girls after talks and was like,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about LSD. You know. Yeah. One of the

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Speaker 1: interesting things that Robert Greenfield points out in his biography though,

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Speaker 1: is that apparently, like there's the Leary that we all imagine,

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Speaker 1: which is off and that that cool older guy, you know,

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Speaker 1: with that with all this charisma and certainly seems to

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Speaker 1: have had a certain amount of chrismas entire life. But

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Speaker 1: there's there was this period where he was kind of

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Speaker 1: like a um, kind of just like a greasy guy

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Speaker 1: with a mustache in ill fitting clothing. Like that was

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Speaker 1: the version of him before his first wife died. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And it's it was after that that things began to

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Speaker 1: change and he kind of morphed into this, uh this

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Speaker 1: more you know, the older, hip cool Leary that we

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Speaker 1: instantly imagine. And this really all began at Harvard University,

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Speaker 1: the place you would least expect it. So Leary joined

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Speaker 1: Harvard University in nineteen fifty nine. But contrary to myth,

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Speaker 1: I want to establish this because so many of the

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Speaker 1: research got pieces of research got this wrong. He taught there,

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Speaker 1: but he was not a professor there. He was not

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Speaker 1: like a tenured faculty. Okay, he was teaching there for sure,

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Speaker 1: and he was part of the psychology department. Originally his

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Speaker 1: research they're focused on the interaction of dimensions of personality

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Speaker 1: and social relationships. He also did some work there as

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Speaker 1: a psychotherapist. Leary was really anti behaviorism, and he disagreed

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Speaker 1: that psychologists should only concern themselves with observable behavior. This

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Speaker 1: was the exact opposite of what was in trend at

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Speaker 1: the time. He more wanted to explore thoughts and beliefs

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Speaker 1: and other internal mental states. He actually later on would

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Speaker 1: compare himself in this role to William James, who is

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Speaker 1: understood as the father of American psychology, uh and who

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Speaker 1: was also known to use nitrous oxide to stimulate mystical consciousness.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, uh so at Harvard along with a guy

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Speaker 1: named Richard Alpert who would later go on to become

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Speaker 1: Rom Doss. Uh This you might know Ram Doss from

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Speaker 1: the sort of infamous meditation book I guess called be

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Speaker 1: Here Now. Uh. So they worked together there in the

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Speaker 1: psychology department. Leary introduced others on the Harvard faculty to psilocybin.

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Speaker 1: And this, as we talked about last episode, is the

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Speaker 1: active ingredient in certain species of mushrooms, and at the

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Speaker 1: time it was legally available for research. But what about

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Speaker 1: his first experience with this stuff? Well, he takes psilocybin

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Speaker 1: while he's on vacation in Quernavaca, Mexico. This is he

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Speaker 1: and some friends were on vacation in between semesters. They

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Speaker 1: took some samples of mushrooms. Uh. And their argument for

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Speaker 1: the research that they were doing. This is back at

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Speaker 1: Harvard was that if psychology is the study of the mind,

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Speaker 1: then it should have a legitimate interest in how cognition, perception,

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Speaker 1: and emotion are affected by mind altering substances. So some

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Speaker 1: argued at the time that they were also unaware of

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Speaker 1: the potential dangers of such research. Right, so, because psilocybin

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Speaker 1: and LSD were so new on the scene, especially in America,

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Speaker 1: uh that this team of psychologists, no matter or how

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Speaker 1: good intentioned they were, they weren't aware of what the

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Speaker 1: drawbacks could be, and Leary and Albert agreed to policies

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Speaker 1: to protect their subjects. So this included no participation from

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Speaker 1: undergraduate students. They were not supposed to be giving any

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Speaker 1: kind of psychedelics to the undergraduate students at Harvard, but

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three, Albert was dismissed after he administered

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Speaker 1: psilocybin to an undergraduate off campus, reportedly for sexual favors,

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Speaker 1: although that is it's unclear whether or not that's true.

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Speaker 1: So Leary begins administering these drugs to other researchers. He

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Speaker 1: also administers it to a group of prison inmates and

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Speaker 1: a group of Divinity students for his research. This was

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Speaker 1: called the Harvard Psilocybin Project, and the goal basically of

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Speaker 1: this project was to document the effects of psychedelics on

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Speaker 1: human consciousness. The notes from these studies were very carefully

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Speaker 1: documented in scripted, and we know this because Timothy Leary's

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Speaker 1: archives are pretty well maintained and there at the New

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Speaker 1: York Public Library. Yeah, in the various products he was involved,

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Speaker 1: and he was he was apparently very big on everyone

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Speaker 1: providing him with lots of data, and it was kind

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Speaker 1: of a meticulous record keeper in that regard. So let's

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Speaker 1: take a little bit closer look at these these studies

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Speaker 1: that he did. Okay, let's look first at the one

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Speaker 1: that he did with a group of Divinity students. So

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Speaker 1: this was called the Good Friday Experiment, and it went

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Speaker 1: like this. They gave psilocybin to ten students and ten

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Speaker 1: to a placebo group. All of them then went to

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Speaker 1: a Good Friday service. They wanted to see if this

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Speaker 1: would facilitate any kind of mystical or spiritual experience, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, eight of the ten reported a mystical experience.

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Speaker 1: One reported a feeling of sacredness and a sense of peace.

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Speaker 1: The placebo group, however, sat quietly through the service. The

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Speaker 1: others would quote laid down or wander around the chapel

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Speaker 1: muttering things like God is everywhere or oh the glory.

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Speaker 1: What Leary failed to report in the study was that

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Speaker 1: one of the subjects actually had a disturbing reaction and

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Speaker 1: had to be given a dose of thorazine to calm down.

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Speaker 1: Now you look back on this, that's a huge lapse

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Speaker 1: of research ethics. That's that's not good. So, so that's unfortunate. Now,

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Speaker 1: Rick Doblin, who is the founder of MAPS, the Multidisciplinary

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Speaker 1: Association for Psychedelic Studies, he's come up on the show before,

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Speaker 1: we talked especially about MAPS during our M d M

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Speaker 1: A two parter. He went back and he replicated this study,

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Speaker 1: and he interviewed seven of the ten students involved, and

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Speaker 1: they all said the experience reshaped their lives in profound ways.

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Speaker 1: The student who reacted poorly actually said that he became

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Speaker 1: convinced that he had been chosen to announce the arrival

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Speaker 1: of the Messiah and ran from the chapel. So this

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Speaker 1: is apparently what actually happened, and he freaked out, he

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Speaker 1: started running away from the chapel. Responsibility. Yeah, if he's

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Speaker 1: gonna announced the Messiah on good Day, Yeah, of course. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: give me some advanced prep on that, some more prep time.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about the Conquered Prison experiment next. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is even wilder. So the aim here was to

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Speaker 1: use psychedelics to reduce the recidivism rate in inmates. Now

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Speaker 1: Learry was was not interested in working with prisoners for

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Speaker 1: a few different reasons, but he realized that he needed

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Speaker 1: a way to measure the the transformative nature of the

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Speaker 1: drugs that he so believed in, and this offered the chance.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like a decent argument, right. Could these

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Speaker 1: substances open inmates up in a way that allowed them

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Speaker 1: to discuss their conditions and their feelings, you know, someone

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Speaker 1: who's just been hardened and calloused by you know, by crime,

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Speaker 1: by life, and by incarceration. Could this be the substance

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Speaker 1: to just loosen them up enough to actually get some

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Speaker 1: some work done with them. So over the course of

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Speaker 1: nine months, they used over a dozen convicts there as

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Speaker 1: test subjects with psychedelics. Again, Rick Doblin replicated this study

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Speaker 1: and re analyzed it in UH. He found that Leary's

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Speaker 1: conclusion wasn't warranted. Learry's conclusion was the recidivism rate has

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Speaker 1: been significantly reduced, but Rick actually found maybe not so much.

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Speaker 1: Timothy Learry, UH. The flaw was in the reporting results.

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Speaker 1: He looked at recidivism rates ten months after release for

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Speaker 1: the psilocybin takers, but he didn't look at the same

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Speaker 1: amount of time for the control group. He only looked

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Speaker 1: at them thirty months later. And this is important because

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Speaker 1: recidivism depends a lot on time, with rates rising the

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Speaker 1: more time one is out because of the increased opportunities.

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Speaker 1: You know, when are you gonna end up getting busted

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Speaker 1: and end up going to back to jail? Is going

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Speaker 1: to be the first day y're out, now, It's going

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Speaker 1: to be in the weeks that follow as more and

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Speaker 1: more temptations come. Yeah, We've talked about this on the

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Speaker 1: show Gee's many many times, but this goes It speaks

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Speaker 1: to something called the halo effect, right where reese archers

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Speaker 1: starts seeing their data in a positive light as much

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Speaker 1: as possible. This becomes misleading. This actually seems to go

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Speaker 1: beyond the halo effect. Right, He's not just seeing his

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Speaker 1: data in a positive light, He's manipulating the data so

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Speaker 1: that it looks better than actually is. So already here

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Speaker 1: you see, like these are basically his two big studies

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Speaker 1: on on using psychedelics medically in any kind of way,

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Speaker 1: and he's either falsified as research or or made huge

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Speaker 1: gaps in in ethical claims. Now. Albert would later explain

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Speaker 1: that the aim of the project he thought was was

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Speaker 1: pretty solid and with a very reasonable therapeutic model, but

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Speaker 1: he says it would have required long term application and study,

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Speaker 1: and Leary simply didn't have the patients for long term studies. Um,

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Speaker 1: which it's you can easily make the argument, well, then

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Speaker 1: you're kind of in the wrong line of business here, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you're if you want to conduct a

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Speaker 1: scientific study, if you want to really uh do the work,

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Speaker 1: then you need to have the patients to see it through.

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Speaker 1: And if you if you don't have the patients, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna end up with what we have here, m a

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Speaker 1: a flawed study that ends up having to be thrown

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Speaker 1: out later on. Now, remember how I was saying that

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Speaker 1: the the notes that he took during this time were meticulous.

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Speaker 1: Wired magazine did a great article and Timothy Leary and

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Speaker 1: I pulled a quote directly from it. They said later

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Speaker 1: reports adhere less strictly to reality, meaning his reports. In

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Speaker 1: one filled out in March of nineteen sixty three, just

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Speaker 1: weeks before he got kicked out of Harvard Leary Prince

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Speaker 1: in big block letters, he puts down a question mark

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Speaker 1: for his age and lists his occupation as angel. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you can start to see that he's already unraveling here, right,

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Speaker 1: So Learry eventually moves on from psilocybin and he tries

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Speaker 1: LSD in nineteen sixty two and then was dismissed from

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Speaker 1: Harvard in nineteen sixty three. Various faculty and administrators were

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Speaker 1: essentially worried about the safety of their subjects, especially because

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Speaker 1: Larry and Albert were conducting their research while they themselves

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Speaker 1: were under the influence of psilocybin. Psychologist Professor Herbert C.

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Speaker 1: Kellman circulated a letter around the faculty and called for

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Speaker 1: a meeting calling for the trials to be voluntary. One

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Speaker 1: of Larry's former students remembers that they had a choice

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Speaker 1: at the end of the semester. They could either take

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Speaker 1: their final or they could participate in psilocybin trials. So

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Speaker 1: it's interesting, that's an interesting choice to make. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is an odd choice to give a college student.

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Speaker 1: So okay, After all this stuff of the faculty, Larry

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Speaker 1: was officially fired for failing to fulfill his teaching obligations

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Speaker 1: because he went traveling instead. This is actually what they

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Speaker 1: nailed him for was that he wasn't teaching his classes.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the actual research that he was doing. He

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Speaker 1: was just kind of like, I'm just gonna travel instead

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Speaker 1: of teaching my classes. And they were like, look, the

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Speaker 1: job says teach the classes. You're not really doing the job. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: you're on now. This is the moment where Leary and Alpert, though,

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Speaker 1: are propelled into stardom because they get kicked out of

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Speaker 1: Harvard and that's a big deal, right, and they become

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Speaker 1: proponents for psychedelics. Peter Connors writes this book called The

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Speaker 1: White Hand Society about Leary and his relationship with Alan Ginsberg.

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Speaker 1: He says, this is really there's a certain point, and

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Speaker 1: this is it where Larry gives up on science. Instead

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Speaker 1: of looking for data to legitimize his psychedelic research, he

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Speaker 1: started talking about spiritual enlightenment instead. This wasn't entirely his

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Speaker 1: fault because let's think about it, he had no adequate

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Speaker 1: scientific language in place to do so. Uh. Instead he

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Speaker 1: fell back on hip poetic language that he picked up

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Speaker 1: from hanging out with people like Alan Ginsburg and Charles Olsen,

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Speaker 1: and that really ended the field of psychology taking him

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Speaker 1: seriously in anyway. But it also makes me think like

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Speaker 1: ultimately Leary, like this is a guy who was better

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Speaker 1: suited to be a shaman than a scientist. This is

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Speaker 1: a guy who's better fitted to be this this celebrity

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Speaker 1: figure than than the an actual researcher. Yeah, and now

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Speaker 1: I have a lovely story before we end the Harvard

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Speaker 1: stuff and jump into his time with the Millbrook group.

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Speaker 1: So William S. Burrows is one of the people who

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Speaker 1: actually denounced Timothy Leary for the same thing. Williams Burrows

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Speaker 1: obviously interested in psychedelic author of Naked Lunch. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: goes to visit Timothy Leary while he's at Harvard. And

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Speaker 1: Burrows gets there and he's like, where are the scientific studies?

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Speaker 1: Like I expected there to be mazes with rats running

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Speaker 1: through them and electrodes and stuff. What you aren't proving anything.

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Speaker 1: All you're doing is just sitting around and getting high

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Speaker 1: and enjoying yourself. So even william S Burrows was like, no, sorry,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm not buying this. So it makes you sympathize

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Speaker 1: with this Harvard faculty crew who are like kind of

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Speaker 1: painted throughout the history of psychedelics as just being these

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Speaker 1: like stodgy old men, right, But like even william S

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Speaker 1: Burrows was like, you're not really doing anything here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Burrows is basically saying, I thought you were one of them,

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Speaker 1: but you're just one of us, you know, Yeah, yeah, exactly. Alright,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna move on to the next chapter in the

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Speaker 1: life of Timothy Leary. Than all right, we're back. So

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Speaker 1: this is a great quote that comes from Louis Mannan's

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Speaker 1: New Yorker article on Timothy Leary, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: a good segue into his time with the Millbrook Group.

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Speaker 1: He says the only things Leary was serious about were

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Speaker 1: pleasure and renown. He underwent no fundamental transformation when he

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Speaker 1: left the academic world for the counterculture. He liked women,

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Speaker 1: he liked being the center of attention, and he liked

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Speaker 1: to get high. And then there's this is another quote

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Speaker 1: from it. He was a counter culture salesman, and he

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Speaker 1: wore on every occasion the same blissed out smile, a

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Speaker 1: rictus somewhere between a beatifick, what me worry grin and

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Speaker 1: a movie stars frozen stare into the flash bulbs. One

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Speaker 1: of his ex wives described it as the smile of

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Speaker 1: the ego actually eating the personality. That. I can't think

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Speaker 1: of a harsher condemnation. That's brutal. Alright, So these guys

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Speaker 1: get kicked out of Harvard. That's where we left off, basically, right,

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Speaker 1: Albert and Leary they go and they say, well, let's

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Speaker 1: just establish our own privately funded research group, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna call it the International Foundation for Internal Freedom, and

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Speaker 1: it's going to be in Mexico. Basically, we'll get a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people around the world to form groups. They'll

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Speaker 1: take LSD and they'll report their results to us. Would

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Speaker 1: be kind of like citizen science, very scientific. Unfortunately, the

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Speaker 1: Mexican government wasn't having it, so they stepped in and

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Speaker 1: they demanded that Albert and uh Leary leave. So they leave.

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Speaker 1: They've got no place left to go. Cambridge doesn't want them,

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Speaker 1: Mexico doesn't want them. Well where do they go? They

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Speaker 1: go to this country estate in Millbrook, New York that

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Speaker 1: was provided to them by a millionaire who sympathized with

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Speaker 1: their research in LSD. This is what we all need, man,

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Speaker 1: We just need a sympathetic millionaire. This millionaire was will M.

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Speaker 1: Melon Hitchcock, also known as Mr Billy. Huh yeah. Mr

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Speaker 1: Billy was the grandson of the founder of Gulf Oil.

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Speaker 1: This is where all his money came from. And at Millbrook,

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Speaker 1: Leary established what he called the Castallia Foundation, which he

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Speaker 1: said was dedicated to the scholarly study of LSD and

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Speaker 1: its spiritual applications. So what's one of the things he

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Speaker 1: does while he's there that's anywhere close to academic. He

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Speaker 1: helps develop a device that's called the experiential typewriter. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and this allows psychedelic subjects to record what they're experiencing

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Speaker 1: as it's happening. Otherwise they can't tell you. This is

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Speaker 1: essentially him saying, I can't not be high while I'm

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Speaker 1: doing these studies on people, So we need something that

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Speaker 1: we can just hit buttons of to get across what's happening,

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Speaker 1: rather than have somebody who's in the room who can

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Speaker 1: sort of translate it. Right, It's easier to have a

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Speaker 1: a special typewriter for people that that are high than

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Speaker 1: to have a single person that is not high. And

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Speaker 1: it seems to be the case. Yeah, yeah. So this

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Speaker 1: thing looked like an old adding machine, had large buttons

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Speaker 1: on it that had labels to indicate what kind of

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Speaker 1: bodily sensations you were experiencing or if you were having

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Speaker 1: hallucinations or you had a sense of entering the void.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to see what the graphics, right, I think

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Speaker 1: it would be an emoji. Right, he's describing he was

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Speaker 1: inventing an emoji's only type. Right, you know what. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're not giving him enough credit. Yeah, Tynethy Leary invented emojis.

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Speaker 1: We wouldn't have the Emoji movie if we're not for

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Speaker 1: Timothy Leary. Uh, yeah, to to blame him for something else. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So then this thing basically, after you you know you're high,

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Speaker 1: you pound on all these buttons, it prints out a

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Speaker 1: little paper script that records what your trip was like. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Some articles characterized the Millbrook Group and Leary as actually

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Speaker 1: not being as a kind of like psychedelically crazy as

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Speaker 1: you might think they were. Uh. They were sometimes depicted

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Speaker 1: as being East Coast upper class elitists and very exclusive.

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Speaker 1: Now Ken Kizi in his R Prankster's came out there

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Speaker 1: at one point, uh, and they were like, oh this

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Speaker 1: is great, let's go meet these psychedelic pioneers. And they're like,

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Speaker 1: oh man, these guys are just total stiffs. They're boring.

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Speaker 1: Um so it's interesting interaction between these two worlds. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like because you tend to think, well, Leary would have

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Speaker 1: just been able to move throughout the counterculture and he

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Speaker 1: would do some brad be embraced everywhere, but but not

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Speaker 1: so so. During this time with Millbrook, Leary was convicted

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Speaker 1: on several charges. This is when a lot of the

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Speaker 1: prison stuff happens. It's all related to drug use in possession.

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Speaker 1: The Millbrook house itself was raided and Leary was arrested

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Speaker 1: by who g Gordon Liddy And at the time, ge

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Speaker 1: Gordon Lyddy was the He was part of the County

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Speaker 1: Sheriff's department there in New York. Now, later on he

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Speaker 1: went to be part of the Watergate Burglary. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: he ends up kind of teaming up with Timothy Leary

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Speaker 1: down the way. Yeah, we'll get into that in a bit. So. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this is, man, this is where things just really

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Speaker 1: started getting bonkers, right Mill Millbrook and afterwards are just

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Speaker 1: where things really let loose with Leary. Yeah. Now, this

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Speaker 1: is definitely a period where on one level, uh, Leary

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Speaker 1: and his bunch they are being targeted. Yeah, totally. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, you could also say, well, they're kind

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Speaker 1: of they're making themselves easy targets. But you eventually end

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Speaker 1: up in kind of gray area there when when you're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, did he have it coming or not. But

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Speaker 1: now this is certainly a period of time though, where

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Speaker 1: you can say that that Leary and people in his

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Speaker 1: circle were being targeted by the authorities. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: you might charge while they were, they were kind of

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Speaker 1: making themselves ideal targets for these uh, for these forces

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Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, yeah, I mean, well, let's take this

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Speaker 1: as an example. Okay, so right after this raid happened,

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Speaker 1: Leary goes down to New York and at the Manhattan

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Speaker 1: Town Hall. There he gives a talk, and there he

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Speaker 1: says LSD it might actually be a problem. And he says,

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Speaker 1: quote l s D maybe creating a new race of mutants.

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Speaker 1: This is like the kind of hyperbole that he's starting

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Speaker 1: to use in his rhetoric. He said he was going

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Speaker 1: to stop using LSD and he urged others to do so,

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Speaker 1: but he also advocated that LSD would cure alcoholism, accelerate learning,

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Speaker 1: and maybe helpful and treating all forms of mental illness. Well,

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Speaker 1: as we know from the last episode, some of these

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Speaker 1: things seem to be true. We just need to do

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Speaker 1: more research on them. But because of its harmful side effects,

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00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: Leary advised using other methods to produce psychedelic effects. So

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Speaker 1: he says, you can just simply do this with the

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Speaker 1: right lights, sounds, and a stroboscope. So he's basically like,

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Speaker 1: I just don't bother with the LSD anymore, Just like

395
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Speaker 1: get in the right mood, man, and we'll like put

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Speaker 1: the right kind of colorful lights in the room and

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Speaker 1: things like that, and it's the same experience. Well, this

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Speaker 1: is this is a really you know, I found this

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Speaker 1: to be a really interesting chapter in his life based

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00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: on Greenfields telling in the biography, and I do want

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00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: to just drive home. Like Greenfield is not a Leary apologist,

402
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: if anything, like his book could have been titled Timothy

403
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 1: Leary colon a mess, right, but but he he gives

404
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: an interesting account of this. So in this talk, Leary

405
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: prophesieses an evolution in human consciousness that will allow humans

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Speaker 1: to consult their own heightened cellular consciousness and live in

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00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: harmony with nature. So basically like the abandonment of cities

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Speaker 1: and and everything you know is growing green again, and

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Speaker 1: where it's like a new Eden on Earth, you know, all,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of you know, highly optimistic, sort of

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Speaker 1: hippie dippy kind of ideas, which one might expect. But

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Speaker 1: then he calls for a one year moratorium analysis D usage.

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Speaker 1: And this is because of the changing legal status of

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Speaker 1: of of l s D and on the heels of

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Speaker 1: all these various legal problems that he's encountering. And uh.

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Speaker 1: In Greenfield points out that this was quote a calculated

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Speaker 1: strategy to curry favor with the establishment. With the current

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00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: level of LSD use in America having reached epidemic proportions,

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00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: Tim wanted to restore his own credibility by becoming the

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Speaker 1: man with a solution to the problem. Yeah. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think this is really where we start seeing that

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Speaker 1: he unfortunately made decisions for his own well being over

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Speaker 1: the decisions that may have you know, helped highlight what

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Speaker 1: these psychedelics were capable of any kind of medical or

425
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: mental health prospect right, Uh and any really was self serving. Yeah.

426
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: Now you mentioned how he said, well you can use

427
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: alternate methods. Well, he had told he told everyone, well,

428
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: if you've used l s D, then you maybe don't

429
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 1: need it anymore. You can use alternate methods, and if

430
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: you don't know alternate methods, I'll teach you. You You know,

431
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: this is a such price, I bet, but this is

432
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 1: an area where I feel like, um, like Leary is correct.

433
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 1: You know, we know that there are other ways to

434
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: to have of hallucinatory experiences, including meditation, including things like yoga.

435
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: Uh So he's actually correct here, you know, his whatever,

436
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: his his exact motivations aside. You know, he's saying, yeah,

437
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 1: you can, you can have some sort of heightened sense

438
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: of of being. You can you can have this alternate

439
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: experience without the use of this substance that's becoming problematic now.

440
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 1: He even goes on to testify before the Senate in

441
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six on the nature of l s D.

442
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: But this turns out to be a rather lackluster performance.

443
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: So he wasn't very assertive. And there's it's I was

444
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,959
Speaker 1: reading the the back and forth here and there's just

445
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: like a lot of stuff where he makes a statement

446
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: and then they're asking him if is that is are

447
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: you being metaphorical or is that a literal statement? And

448
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: they spend time discussing that. They talk about how l

449
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: s D might theoretically be controlled in some fashion, but

450
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: everyone was pretty much disappointed with how it came out,

451
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: Like he basically this was the a point where Leary

452
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: could really stand up and be the like, the positive,

453
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: optimistic voice of the of the counterculture and speak for

454
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: for this substance and speak for its research potential, and

455
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: he wasn't able to come through. I just imagined like

456
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: people like John C. Lily or Sasha Shulgun were like

457
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: just sitting at home, like face to palm, just like

458
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: like man, like you were supposed to be the one

459
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: that made this accessible for the rest of us, and

460
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: now we're all screwed. Also, I'm really glad Twitter wasn't

461
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: around when Timothy Learry was alive. Can you imagine he

462
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: would have been insufferable on Twitter? Probably? All right? This

463
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: is also around the time where he gives his infamous

464
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties six Playboy interview. This came up in every

465
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: single article I read about him, So I went and

466
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 1: I pulled the actual text and read the interview. This

467
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: was man. Playboy must have spent a lot of money

468
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: on the sheets of paper that they printed this interview

469
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: on because it was like a novel. Uh. He makes

470
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: some really outrageous claims here, including that women commonly can

471
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: have several hundred orgasms during sex on l s D.

472
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: So that doesn't seem to be true. Again, fair enough,

473
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: we haven't done that much research on it, but I'm

474
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: pretty sure that's not true. Uh, some other stuff he said.

475
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: He talks more about that LSD cease fire, basically saying

476
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: that he thinks that the two generations that are you know,

477
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: battling over LSD right now need to just like cool

478
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: off for a little while so they can get to

479
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: the point where they can start looking at it analytically.

480
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: He also says like some frankly really misogynistic stuff here,

481
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: not just about you know, women and sex, but he

482
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 1: says every woman has built into her cells and tissues

483
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: the longing for a hero sage mythic male to open

484
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: up and share her own divinity. But casual sexual encounters

485
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: do not satisfy this deep longing. Uh So he's just

486
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: he's really making these like huge mythic pronouncements. It's just

487
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: I think in poor taste. Maybe in sixties six it

488
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: was taken as being sort of a little bit more

489
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: eccentric and interesting. Yeah, this is certainly to modern readers,

490
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: This does sound like the ego consuming the personality. Now

491
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: this is this next quote is really one of the

492
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: worst ones he's asked about homosexuality, and he says, the

493
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: fact is that LSD is a specific cure for homosexuality.

494
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: It's well known that most sexual perversions are the result

495
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: not of biological binds, but of freaky, dislocating childhood experiences

496
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: of one kind or another. Consequently, it's not surprising that

497
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: we've had many cases of long term home sexuals who

498
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: under l s D discover that they are not only

499
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: genitally but genetically male. I don't even know what he's

500
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: saying that, uh, that they are basically attracted to females.

501
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: The most famous in public of such cases is that

502
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: of Alan Ginsburg, who has openly stated that he the

503
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: first time that he turned onto women was during an

504
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: LSD sessions several years ago. This is only one of

505
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: many such cases. Okay, so I have a lot, a

506
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: lot of problems with with all of this stuff. Yeah,

507
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: but I mean one of them is that it's not

508
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: like Leary didn't did not and had not had numerous

509
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: friendships and uh and professional relationships with with with homosexual people,

510
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: including Alan Ginsberg. Yeah, and uh, Dr D was another

511
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: one I mentioned. Uh, you know, Tuscaloosa has been kind

512
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: of this um uh, the university there being this this

513
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: sort of you know, fortress of of of liberal minds

514
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: at the time, and a number of different homosexual professors, uh,

515
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: many of which had you know, had gone to bat

516
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: for for Leary and helped him with the connections he

517
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: needed to navigate that portion of his life. So it

518
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: just seems just completely ridiculous and uh uh and disappointing

519
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: to to hear him talk about Yeah, I mean he's

520
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: saying stuff that's like patently untrue he has no evidence for,

521
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: but that on top of all of it, he's throwing

522
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: his friends under the bus. You know. It's just it's strange. Uh.

523
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: And So really this is the point where a lot

524
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: of people feel like he helped hasten the blackout on

525
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: psychedelic research, because every time he had a stunt like this,

526
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: or the one where he gave that talk in the

527
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: Manhattan town hall, it would just accelerate the establishments thoughts that,

528
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: oh my god, we absolutely have to shut this down, right.

529
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: So the Millbrook Group goes on to disband and Leary

530
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: becomes a psychedelic speaker coach, and this is really the

531
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: latter part of his life what most people know him for. Uh.

532
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: He's a public figure. He's associated with psychedelics and spiritual discovery.

533
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,959
Speaker 1: He even starts his own church called the League for

534
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: Spiritual Discovery. He writes a bunch of books. In a

535
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: one segment that I read about this, a guy named

536
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: Steve Silverman described Leary as a genius marketer during this time,

537
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: and he says he could have had a brilliant career

538
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: hyping up luxury cars, iPad or social media startups. Instead

539
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: he was hawking LSD and psychedelic nosis. Uh. And then

540
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: in that same conversation, Connors, who wrote that a white

541
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: Hand society book that I mentioned earlier, he responds and

542
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: he says Leary got caught in a circular trap of

543
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: marketing himself so he could get money to then afford

544
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: to defend himself from his prosecutors. Uh, it's just all

545
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: kinds of crazy stuff are going on. He gets pulled

546
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: over in nineteen sixty eight. Uh, he's he's driving down

547
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: Laguna Beach and he's arrested for drugs. His son was

548
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: so stoned in the back seat that when they pulled

549
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: him into the jail he took off all of his

550
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: clothes and started masturbating. When he was shown what his

551
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: son was doing, Leary laughed. His daughter was sentenced to

552
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: six months in prison. Jack was ordered to undergo psychiatric observation.

553
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: Leary got one to ten for possession of marijuana. So

554
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: this is one of many cases where he goes into

555
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: jail and he gets out right. He's described in the

556
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: New York Times obituary when he died. This is how

557
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: the New York Times described him as having an elegant,

558
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: happy contempt for authority. And this is around the time

559
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: where Richard Nixon infamously refers to him as the most

560
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: dangerous man in America. Again, hyperbole everybody all over the place.

561
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: Sounds a lot like right now people are just throwing

562
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: out like this stuff that is just like super extreme. Uh.

563
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: He talks to Marshall McCluin during this period of time.

564
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: This is when McCluin advises him, Yeah, you know what

565
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: you should do. You need to come up with a

566
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: catchy slogan to advertise the wonders of LSD. This is

567
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: where we get turn on, tune in, drop out from

568
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: basically McLuhan saying like, you need to get better at

569
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: brand marketing. Dude. I never thought that that was a

570
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: really great slogan for anything. I mean the dropout part especially.

571
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: It's just like, I don't want to try something that's

572
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: gonna make me drop out of something, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um.

573
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: He basically becomes a celebrity during this time. I said

574
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: this at the top of the first episode. This is

575
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: where he becomes famous for being famous. Right. He ends

576
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: up associating and taking trips with and I mean psilocybin

577
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: trips with authors, musicians, criminals, and movie stars. Right. He

578
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: just gets famous for hanging out with these people. In

579
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, he declares his candidacy for governor of California.

580
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: Who is he running against? Ronald Reagan? Now this was

581
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: interrupted when he was convicted on marijuana charges again. Uh,

582
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: and he escaped. This is this is the craziest part

583
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: of the whole story. He escapes prison. This is at

584
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: San Luis Oba Cipo. I guess that's a prison in California,

585
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: and his followers help him get to Algeria. He essentially

586
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: goes from Algeria to Switzerland and then to Afghanistan before

587
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: returning to the United States in nineteen seventy three. Eventually

588
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: serves three more years in prison. But hold on, I

589
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: just jumped over like four years of crazy behavior. Let's

590
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: zoom in on this a little bit. Supposedly his escape

591
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: from prison was this assisted by the weather underground and

592
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: in Algeria he was the house guest of Eldridge Cleaver,

593
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: who was part of the Black Panthers. That they didn't

594
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: get along, So he goes on to Switzerland. You know

595
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: who he meets in Switzerland, Albert Hoffman, the guy who

596
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: invents LSD. They sit down and have a conversation. But uh,

597
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 1: I also want to mention Greenfield, who we've been talking

598
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: about this whole time. It's in Algiers with the two

599
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: of them first meet up. So this is Greenfield's first

600
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: experience with with Timothy Leary is while he's on the

601
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: run from escaping prison. When he returned to the US,

602
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: here's the thing, he was facing way more jail time

603
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: than three years, and he informed on all of his

604
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 1: previous associates to the authorities. That includes his third wife, Rosemary,

605
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: So he informed on her as well. She had left

606
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: him during the middle of all this, he ends up

607
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: writing articles for the conservative magazine National Review. And in

608
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 1: these articles he starts attacking on Lennon and Bob Dylan.

609
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: And the reason why was he wanted to demonstrate that

610
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: he had rehabilitated so they wouldn't put him back in prison.

611
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: And this this again sounds like the classic pattern with

612
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: Leary that the Greenfield points out that he'll he'll get

613
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: on a kick where he's following a rigid system and

614
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: adhering to some sort of you know, expectation of what

615
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: he should be, but it's only gonna last for so yeah,

616
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: he turns around and bites the hand that feeds him.

617
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so okay. After this, he mainly spends time

618
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: on the campus lecture circuit. This includes public debates with G.

619
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 1: Gordon Liddy. This is like one of the most fascinating

620
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: parts that we found in this entire affair here. Yeah,

621
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: the Liddy thing is interesting because both Leary and Liddy

622
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: had become caricatures of themselves at this point, Um, you know,

623
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: inflated cartoon characters of liberal goofiness and conservative uh curmusgionary. Uh.

624
00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: They even made a movie to capitalize on their fame

625
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: or or I guess to squeeze the last bits of

626
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: juice out of it. Um And There's a three New

627
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: York Times review of the film by Vincent Canby, and

628
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: he shares the following I thought, I thought this was

629
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: particularly telling. The two men are not exactly freaks, but

630
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: one has the suspicion that they wouldn't be showing off

631
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: in this way if they could possibly make a living

632
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: in some other fashion. Whether accurately or not. The movie

633
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: suggests that the world has passed them by and that

634
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: this personal appearance tour is one of the last ways

635
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: in which each can turn his individual notoriety to profit now.

636
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: The reviewer also goes on to say that despite their

637
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: their personas, there is a scene in the film where

638
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: where each man um and their current wives sit down

639
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: and have breakfast together and they're having just this a

640
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 1: very normal conversation about you know, just just everyday stuff

641
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: like not a nothing, nothing about law or politics or

642
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: drugs or counterculture. Like there is this moment where you

643
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: see this idea that or perhaps just yet, two people

644
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: who are just trying to make a living for the

645
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: time being, and this is what they have. This would

646
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: have been like, uh, if Steve Bannon and Lindsay Lohan

647
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: went on tour together or had like a reality TV

648
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: show together where they just constantly argued, Yeah, and and

649
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: if you've neither had you know, a significant enterprise to

650
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: to back them up with that, Right, Yeah, it's kind

651
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: of I get the impression. That's kind of like it's

652
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: kind of like celebrity TV. If if if this had

653
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: happened today, it would have been a Leary and Liddy

654
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: television show on some reality network, right, them trying to

655
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: learn how to dance better than one another? Exactly? All Right,

656
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: why don't we take one more break, and then when

657
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: we get back, we're gonna talk about the end of

658
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: Leary's life and his focus on of all things cybernetics. Alright,

659
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 1: we're back. So we've talked a lot on our show

660
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: before about cyborgs and cybernetics and transhumanism and what that

661
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: has to do with space travel. It turns out Timothy

662
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: Leary in his seventies became fascinated by all this stuff,

663
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: specifically electronic communication, and he would tell his audiences that

664
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: electronic communication was going to be what would free their

665
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 1: brains and souls from oppressive orthodoxes like education, religion, and politics.

666
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: In particular, he was fascinated by things like virtual reality

667
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: computer games. He even went so far as to start

668
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: his own software company before he died. He also predicted

669
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: that implanted acceptal electrodes would one day be used recreationally. Uh,

670
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: and we're not quite there yet, but it just goes

671
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: to show how how interested he became. You know, the

672
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: role technology could play in alternate states of of awareness. Yeah,

673
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm I'm I don't know if I'm

674
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: quite there with Timothy Leary on this one, because we

675
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 1: are now in an age where electronic communication is so vast.

676
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: Like I said earlier, he would have been insufferable on Twitter.

677
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: I can imagine. I can't imagine what this be like.

678
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: And I don't know necessarily that these technologies have enabled

679
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: us to a break free of oppressive orthodoxy like education, religion,

680
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: in politics. But hey, there's still time, right, I mean,

681
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: it's only been like twenty years since he passed away.

682
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: Speaking of which, So, he died in nine at his

683
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: home in Beverly Hills, California. He was seventy five years old.

684
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: Interesting thing about this is, outside of his fascination with psychedelics,

685
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: and electronics. His other fascination was with death and out

686
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: of body experiences near death, so this was something that

687
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 1: he turned into a public performance as well. He made

688
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: it an event. He had video cameras record his death.

689
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: He built the whole thing up from a year before

690
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: when he was first told that he was diagnosed with

691
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: prostate cancer, and his friends collected his writings and his

692
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: papers all on a leery themed website and they posted

693
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: films of him there. He even recorded his daily drug

694
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: intake on this website. It was basically a blog before

695
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 1: there were blogs. Uh, now I want to recap here,

696
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: let's return just We've been hitting on this over and

697
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: over and over again throughout the episode, how self destructive

698
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: he was. He went through two divorces. He went through

699
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: one separation, his first wife committed suicide. His second wife,

700
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: who was the mistress that he he left his first

701
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: wife over and who she committed suicide over, that woman

702
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: left him after he struck her and their landlady called

703
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: the police on them. And then his daughter also committed

704
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: suicide in nineteen nine. So he left this wake of

705
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: broken people behind him. It just doesn't leave a good

706
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: taste in my mouth. Yeah, that was. That was my

707
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: experience with the research as well. I didn't go into

708
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: this idolizing Leary, but but I went and went into

709
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: it like appreciating some of the things he's said before

710
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: and the use of his persona in various bits of

711
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,320
Speaker 1: fiction or music. And it was it was disappint wanting

712
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: to to really, uh not only to see this pattern,

713
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,439
Speaker 1: but then to spend a lot of time reading about it. Yeah.

714
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: I think like after he had been like, you know,

715
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: he's been mythologized over the years, especially for our generation,

716
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: I expected more. You know, well a lot of you know,

717
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 1: I noticed that a lot of people were kind of

718
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: critical on Amazon, for instance, of the Greenfield biography because

719
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: they thought, you know, it's like, oh, he's just kind

720
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 1: of a it's kind of a hatchet job or whatever.

721
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: But uh, I think the thing is that the biography

722
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: reveals more about the real Timothy Leary than a lot

723
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:43,479
Speaker 1: of people. You know, we're comfortable confronting. Now he's dying,

724
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: as he said, and uh, and he's keeping a track

725
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: of the various substance he's he's taking. So Leary actually

726
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: considered taking LSD on his deathbed, and this would have

727
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: and in doing this, he would have been following the

728
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: lead of Altre Huxley, who took an injection of a

729
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: hundred micrograms on his death ad um. Now, in the

730
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: time leading up to his dead Leary did use ketamine

731
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: and enhanced it with Niger's hawk side he drank towards

732
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: the end there was a lot of smoking, especially Carol Rosen,

733
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: a friend who was that at his bedside, said that

734
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: his penultimate words were why not, why not? Why not,

735
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: repeating the final question fifty times fifty times in different voices,

736
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: and then, according to his son, he said beautiful and died. Okay,

737
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: part of me is very cynical and has to wonder

738
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: how much of that was performed, given that he knew

739
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: that the cameras were on and everything. That's yeah, that's

740
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: that's true. Now, he had pursued chronic suspension at one point,

741
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: but his final wishes were that his cremated remains be

742
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: distributed among his friends as well as shot into space.

743
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: So indeed, a year later, seven grams of his ashes

744
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: and a vial went into a space into space on

745
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: a Pegasus rocket. And this, by the way, it was

746
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 1: the rocket that also contains seven grams of ashes. From

747
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: a few other notable individuals, including Gene Roddenberry. Now, so

748
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: how do you get Do you buy into that ahead

749
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 1: of time or does somebody sponsor you? How does that work? Um?

750
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: I think in Leary's case it was a sponsorship situation. Now,

751
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: Greenfield in his biography as some everything up that, I

752
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: think rather succinctly at the end, he says, a self

753
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: proclaimed at cheer leader for change who himself had never

754
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: been able to change, Timothy Leary had finally achieved his

755
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: heart's desire in death as he could never be in life.

756
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: He was not only free, but soaring through the heavens

757
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: at which he had gazed so often in wondering during

758
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: his most improbable life. That's a that's a very nice eulogy,

759
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, I mean, but I mean it also

760
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: just sums up, you know, a lot of the disorder

761
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: that was there as well. Yeah. Absolutely, But it paints

762
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: him in a nicer picture than I think, honestly, maybe

763
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: we have in the last two episodes of the show,

764
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: we've been trying. I really wanted to give him the

765
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt, you know. Yeah, it's the same here. Yeah.

766
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: So actually, I mean, in this earlier but Leary's archives

767
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: are today's stored at the New York Public Library. Reportedly

768
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 1: the library paid nine hundred thousand dollars for them, uh,

769
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: and a portion of that, just to be clear, went

770
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: back toward processing the collection. These archives had an interesting

771
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: life before they showed up the library because they were

772
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: moved from place to place so that they could avoid

773
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: the FBI season. Uh. And they they actually did end

774
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: up getting seized by the FBI regardless, and then they

775
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 1: were returned. They ended up in a storage facility in

776
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: California until now the library houses his documents alongside George Washington,

777
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: Herman Melville, and Truman Capodi. So in closing, um, yeah,

778
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: there was there was definitely a lot more chaos and

779
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: disorder in Leary's life than than than I anticipated going

780
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: in again not not being very familiar with the details

781
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: of his life, just sort of having the pop culture

782
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: awareness of him and a meat you filtered awareness of him. Um. Yeah,

783
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: it ended up being, uh at times, a depressing journey

784
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: to to uh to read more in detail about his

785
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: life and his work. Yeah. I agree. The New Yorker

786
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: review of the Greenfield biography that we use for a

787
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: lot of this compares him to Wilhelm Reich, who we

788
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,439
Speaker 1: also have an episode on uh, and they basically say, look,

789
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: they're both renegade psychologists who became brand fads among quote

790
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: unquote enlightened people. Uh. To me, Leary seems to be

791
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: more like a sly huckster than any kind of contributor

792
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: to philosophy or psychology. Like I said, that's unfortunate. I

793
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: guess I just expected more. Uh. The Don Latin book

794
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: The Harvard Psychedelic Club, which I also read through, refers

795
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: to him as the trickster throughout the book, like they

796
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: give a sort of like mythical mythical status to each

797
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: of the characters from the Harvard Psychedelic Club. Richard Alpert

798
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: or or Rohm Dosk gets the term the seeker, but

799
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: Leary is the trickster, so he'd be kind of like

800
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: the low key of this Avengers. Yeah, it seems like. Yeah,

801
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: I had a hard time reading all this research and

802
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: not seeing a selfish, kind of egomaniacal guy who seemed

803
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: to sacrifice all of his family and friends along the

804
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: way just so he could extend his five minutes of

805
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: either fun or fame or both. I don't know. So yeah,

806
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: it was really disappointing unfortunately. UM yeah, I'm curious. I'm

807
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: sure that there are plenty of people who are listening

808
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: to this episode who are real, uh, devout you know,

809
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: fans of Leary and his wisdom, and maybe there's something

810
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: that Robert and I are missing out on here. I

811
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: don't know. Well, I will say this and to sort

812
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: of you know, I ended on a positive note. Leary's

813
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: words have definitely inspired me in the past, and I

814
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,720
Speaker 1: think I'll continue to find inspiration in some of his words.

815
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: One of the weird things that happens with icon celebrities

816
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: and and even profits is that there emerges this disconnect

817
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: between cell and perception, between actuality and the ideal. So,

818
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: you know, the pop culture Leary here is I think,

819
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,720
Speaker 1: something of a fiction, but it can serve as a

820
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: as a beneficial fiction, I think at times. So I'd

821
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: like to to close that here with a quote that

822
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: I've always valued, uh and and one that I tend

823
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: to sort of employ as a guiding principle for for

824
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind. So I will read it

825
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: once again in uh in my impersonation of Timothy Leary

826
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: throughout human history, as our species is face the frightening,

827
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are

828
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: or where we are going in this ocean of chaos.

829
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: It has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the

830
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 1: educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing,

831
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: forming in our minds their view of reality. To think

832
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: for yourself, you must question authority and learn how to

833
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open mindedness, chaotic,

834
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: confused vulnerability to inform yourself. Now that I can agree with, Yeah,

835
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: that I think that lines up with with how we

836
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: tend to approach topics here. How I think we should

837
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: always approach any kind of you know, authority figure, even

838
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: when that authority figure is Timothy Learry. So hope you

839
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 1: enjoyed this marathon of Timothy Leary and LSD information that

840
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: we gave you this week. We are probably going to

841
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 1: be doing a Facebook Live trailer talk event the day

842
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: after this episode releases, So if you're listening the day

843
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: of go to our Facebook page. Uh that Friday morning

844
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: will probably be on Facebook Live talking about movies that

845
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: are related to Timothy Leary and or LSD and psilocybin. Yeah,

846
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: some sort of Psychedelic Cinema celebration. We haven't figured it

847
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: out yet, but it'll probably probably be more fun than

848
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: the details of Larry's life. Yeah, maybe so uh so right.

849
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