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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori

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Speaker 1: with you. We have a fascinating couple hours for you.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of strange, so take keyed. Forensic psychologist by day,

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Speaker 1: novelist by night, Ellerie Kane has been writing professionally creatively

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Speaker 1: for as long as she can remember, and just like

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Speaker 1: many of her main characters, Ellerie loves to ask why,

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Speaker 1: which is the reason she became a psychologist in the

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Speaker 1: first place. Real life really is stranger than fiction, isn't it,

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Speaker 1: and Ellerie's writing is often inspired by her day job. Ellerie,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the program. I'm looking forward to this strange

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Speaker 1: night with you. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward

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Speaker 1: to it as well. And so what came first, the

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Speaker 1: psychologist or the writing the novels? Definitely the psychologist came first.

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Speaker 1: Although I have always loved to write, and as a kid,

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Speaker 1: I wrote a lot of short stories that were probably

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Speaker 1: dark and inspired by a lot of my true crime

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Speaker 1: show watching back then, but I didn't pursue that right away.

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Speaker 1: I kind of got lost in this professional world of

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Speaker 1: forensic psychology, and I do a lot of writing for

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Speaker 1: my day job. Each report that I write is usually

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Speaker 1: about fifteen pages long, and I write about eight of

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Speaker 1: those a month in addition to my private practice work.

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Speaker 1: And so all of that writing made me feel like

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Speaker 1: I didn't have much space in my life for my

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Speaker 1: creative writing. But about six years ago I decided, you

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Speaker 1: know what, now is the time I know I want

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Speaker 1: to write creatively, and if I don't do it now,

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Speaker 1: who knows when I'll ever get around to it. So

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Speaker 1: I could that out and wrote my first book. And

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Speaker 1: that's eight books later. Have any of your books been

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Speaker 1: turned into movies yet? Not yet, fingers crossed, that's more

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Speaker 1: down the road. I think there's a couple that would

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Speaker 1: make pretty good series or movies, I think so. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think your latest book could be a hip watch

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Speaker 1: or vanish I hope. So, now, when we talk about

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Speaker 1: a forensic psychologist, what exactly is that? You know, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people have a misconception about what

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Speaker 1: a forensic psychologist is and does. Most people probably think

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Speaker 1: either CSI or they have some combination of Clarice Starling,

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Speaker 1: you know, interrogating Hannibal Lecter or even Alex Cross in

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Speaker 1: the James Patterson books, you know, doing profiling, analyzing crime scenes.

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Speaker 1: Actual forensic psychologists probably are not that glamorous. What we

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Speaker 1: do involves the intersection of psychology and the law, and

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Speaker 1: that can be a broad range of different issues, anything

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Speaker 1: from determining if somebody was insane when they committed a crime,

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Speaker 1: to determining if they're competent to stand trial, to even

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Speaker 1: getting involved in issues about parenting like child custody or

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Speaker 1: termination of parental rights. And what I do specifically is

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Speaker 1: violence risk assessment. So that's one of my primary areas

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Speaker 1: of expertise. And when you get into this, give us

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Speaker 1: kind of an example of your day to day life.

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Speaker 1: My day to day life involves a lot of listening

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Speaker 1: and a lot of writing, you know, I would say,

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Speaker 1: and both of those things are pretty exhausting at times.

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Speaker 1: So typically I get assigned eight cases a month for

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Speaker 1: my violence risk assessment job, and I typically would go

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Speaker 1: in to the prison. Now this is pre coronavirus m

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Speaker 1: Now I interview my inmates on Skype, But previously I

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Speaker 1: would go into the institution and sit down the room

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Speaker 1: with an inmate and I would conduct an interview where

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Speaker 1: I would learn everything about that person's life from beginning

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Speaker 1: to where they are now. And prior to doing that,

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Speaker 1: I would of course do a pretty extensive file review.

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Speaker 1: In California, we call it a CE file, and I

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Speaker 1: would look through the CE file and review everything that

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Speaker 1: I needed to know about that inmate before I went

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Speaker 1: to meet with him, and then after meeting with him,

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Speaker 1: I would return home and I would start to craft

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Speaker 1: a story. That's not unlike the stories that I write

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Speaker 1: for my night job, but I would craft a story

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Speaker 1: about this person and how they came to be who

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Speaker 1: they are and how it is that they, in most

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Speaker 1: cases came to commit a violent crime like murder. Were

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Speaker 1: the inmates willing to tell you what they did? And

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Speaker 1: do you think they were truthful? Well, it definitely varies,

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Speaker 1: so I would say that a fair percentage of them

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Speaker 1: are willing to talk about it. And the reason for

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Speaker 1: that is that when I'm seeing an inmate, typically these

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Speaker 1: are life term inmates, so they have been given an

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Speaker 1: indeterminate sentence, which just means that they have to prove

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Speaker 1: their way out of prison. They don't have a determinant

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Speaker 1: date where they're definitely going to get out. They have

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Speaker 1: to show that they're ready for release and that they're

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Speaker 1: not going to pose a danger to society. So because

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Speaker 1: of that, they approach the interview I think a little

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Speaker 1: bit differently. And many of them have been incarcerated for

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Speaker 1: over twenty five years. Most of the men that I

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Speaker 1: see are fifty or older, and so they have a

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Speaker 1: little bit more perspective and a little bit more insight

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Speaker 1: on things than they probably did when they first came

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Speaker 1: into prison. So most of them are pretty ready to

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Speaker 1: talk about it because they know this is a step

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Speaker 1: in them potentially getting released. Now there are a few

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Speaker 1: that have it changed, and there are definitely some you

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Speaker 1: know that that still they might deny the crime altogether,

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Speaker 1: or they might minimize it, um things like you know,

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Speaker 1: the gun just went off, right, that that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's a real range from from those

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Speaker 1: who really are ready to talk about it and those

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Speaker 1: who are still holding back. Were you in the prisons

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Speaker 1: with them before COVID? Were they bound or were they

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Speaker 1: just sitting there? So typically, and this is like a

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Speaker 1: kind of a thing that people want to know a

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Speaker 1: lot about, Like, yeah, because I'm leading up to a

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Speaker 1: follow up on this one. Yeah, so are you really

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Speaker 1: you know, alone in the room with a murderer and

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Speaker 1: what is that like, Um, yes, I am alone in

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Speaker 1: the room with the person. Because of confidentiality, So these

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Speaker 1: inmates still have certain rights, and part of that is

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Speaker 1: that their report is confidential in the sense that the

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Speaker 1: guards and other inmates aren't allowed to hear that information

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Speaker 1: because it could potentially be harmful to the inmate if

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Speaker 1: they're revealing things. For example, if an inmate has committed

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Speaker 1: a sex offense, that's like, you know, you're just a

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Speaker 1: pariah in the prison environment, So you don't want guards

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Speaker 1: and other inmates to be able to hear that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. But typically they're not bound. It depends on

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Speaker 1: the institution. So some of the more secure institutions, Pelican

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Speaker 1: Bay which is up near the Oregan border used to

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Speaker 1: be one of those. That's a kind of a supermax

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Speaker 1: type facility, and in those institutions, if the inmate was

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Speaker 1: a certain of a certain level, a certain security risk,

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Speaker 1: they would be put in what's called a therapeutic module,

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Speaker 1: which is really just a fancy way of saying a

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Speaker 1: cage and kind of protect you. Right, it does, it does.

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Speaker 1: And actually the first time, this was my second month

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Speaker 1: on the job, and I had really never worked with

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Speaker 1: inmates before, and I got sent to Pelican Bay, and

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Speaker 1: you know, of course I want to do a good job.

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Speaker 1: I'm just starting out, so I didn't want to admit

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Speaker 1: that I was at all nervous. I was like, yes,

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Speaker 1: of course I would love to go to Pelican Bay.

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Speaker 1: So all the inmates that I saw were in what's

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Speaker 1: called the security housing unit, or the shoe. And these

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Speaker 1: are kind of the worst of the worst. These guys

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Speaker 1: pose the biggest threat in the institution because many of

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Speaker 1: them are still involved in gangs and violence. And all

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Speaker 1: the inmates I got assigned were in the shoe. So

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Speaker 1: as soon as I get in this the shoe, which

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Speaker 1: is just long concrete hallways where there's really no people

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Speaker 1: because all the inmates are in their pods, the guard

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Speaker 1: tells me, okay, well, here is your stab proof vest.

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Speaker 1: And I think at that moment probably stopped. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: getting into exactly what have I gotten myself into that

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Speaker 1: I'm actually going to need a stab proof vest to

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Speaker 1: perform my job. Of course, it was just a precaution,

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Speaker 1: and I did wear it, and they brought me into

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Speaker 1: the room. Then they brought the inmate in and put

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Speaker 1: him in the cage, and I as soon as I

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Speaker 1: saw him walk in, just a very large, imposing man,

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Speaker 1: a lot of tattoos, crazy hair, just like the person

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Speaker 1: that you would think of when you think of a

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Speaker 1: scary inmate. And that was really the moment that was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I am cut out for this,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm not sure I can do this, but of

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Speaker 1: course I had no choice. I was in the vest,

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Speaker 1: I was in the room, and I couldn't run away,

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Speaker 1: so I proceeded forward. I ended up doing the interview,

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Speaker 1: and I was frankly surprised by how how easy these

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Speaker 1: guys really are to talk to, even even the worst

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Speaker 1: of the worst, the ones who have still really not

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Speaker 1: reformed their lives. They're they're mostly just like everyday people,

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Speaker 1: which is probably one of the most surprising parts of

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Speaker 1: my job. And in your dealings with these people. How

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Speaker 1: many of them are there for murders of anger where

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Speaker 1: they didn't plan it, but they ended up killing somebody

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Speaker 1: in some altercation. I think that's pretty common. You know.

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Speaker 1: There's obviously there's so many different kinds of cases that

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Speaker 1: I see. There's definitely those cases where it's just a

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Speaker 1: bad decision and a lot of those The kinds of

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Speaker 1: cases that you're talking about also involved substance use, so

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Speaker 1: it's not just a moment of anger, but it's a

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Speaker 1: moment of anger and I had ten beers and that

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Speaker 1: all gets exacerbated and then the person makes a terrible mistake.

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Speaker 1: There are also those cases that are very much the opposite,

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Speaker 1: where it's more premeditated and planned. But I would say

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Speaker 1: a good portion of the men that I see have

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Speaker 1: committed impulsive crimes, So it's not like they've really sat

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Speaker 1: around and planned the perfect murder. Most of them, it's impulsive.

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Speaker 1: It's just a bad decision, and this is sort of

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Speaker 1: the result of that. Have you ever interviewed a serial killer?

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Speaker 1: Was like one of the names I mentioned before you

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Speaker 1: came on. Thank god, No, you know, I've thought about

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Speaker 1: this a lot over the years, like would I want

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Speaker 1: to interview one of those types of people? I would

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Speaker 1: in a sense that I'm obviously very curious, and curiosity

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Speaker 1: is what drives me and my work. I am always

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Speaker 1: wanting to understand people better, understand the dark side of

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Speaker 1: people better, and understand why people do things. But fortunately,

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Speaker 1: I think for me, I kind of get the best

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Speaker 1: of both worlds. So I get to see that little

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Speaker 1: peek into the dark side, but I don't have to

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Speaker 1: go all the way into the dark room where those

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Speaker 1: men that you mentioned are more more in the psychopathic range,

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Speaker 1: a little bit more evil, if you will, Yes, whereas

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Speaker 1: the men that I evaluate, you know, typically a serial

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Speaker 1: killer is not going to ever come up for parole.

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Speaker 1: I mean, let me buzz through their names and how

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Speaker 1: many people they reportedly killed. The Dennis Raiders, still alive

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Speaker 1: seventy five years old in prison in Kansas, killed ten people.

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy confess to thirty homicides. They say the number

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Speaker 1: could be even bigger. He was executed back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine. Ed Geane, who was the sicko who would

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Speaker 1: carve people up, confess to killing two women, but he

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Speaker 1: did it in a very bizarre way. Jeffrey Dalmer seventeen

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Speaker 1: young teenagers and boys and men, cannibalism and everything else.

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Speaker 1: He killed seventeen. John Wayne Gacy killed thirty three young men.

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Speaker 1: He's dead now too, thank god. Richard Ramrez he killed

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Speaker 1: a number of people, The night stalker, they called him.

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Speaker 1: David Berkowitz, the son of Sam eight people. Albert Dasolvo,

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Speaker 1: the Boston Strangler way back in the seventies thirteen people.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what possesses these people to do this? Llary?

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Speaker 1: I think those cases that you mentioned, they're really outliers.

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of those men's what's driving a

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Speaker 1: lot of their behavior is sexual sadism. So they get

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Speaker 1: a sexual will thrill out of killing someone and or

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Speaker 1: than having sex with them after they've killed them. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's sort of a compulsion, which is very different

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Speaker 1: than what we talked about just previously. The men who

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Speaker 1: just commit it's a mistake, it's a you know, a

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Speaker 1: sudden impulsive thing. Sure, it's not this compulsion that we

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Speaker 1: see with serial killers. Something has happened to these serial

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Speaker 1: killers when they were kids, obviously, don't you think, Yes,

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Speaker 1: for the most part. I mean, I've I've definitely read

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Speaker 1: a lot about various serial killers, and I think that

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Speaker 1: most of them do have trauma, and that they do

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Speaker 1: share in common with the men that I evaluate, because

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Speaker 1: many of them have trauma as well. But I think

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Speaker 1: what's possibly different about serial killers is that there is

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Speaker 1: that maybe that biological piece, that there's something just a

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Speaker 1: little bit different about them biologically. And I know there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of different studies looking at at the brains

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Speaker 1: of psychopaths, yes, and how they tend to be a

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Speaker 1: little bit different. And so I think that they have

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Speaker 1: some of the nature component going on, some biological component

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Speaker 1: that then the trauma sort of triggers or feeds into,

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Speaker 1: and that's what ends up producing these men that are

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Speaker 1: really fill that compulsion or that are driven to kill.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's really that it's bizarre, And you're right,

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Speaker 1: there is a distinction between the serial killer, who you know,

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Speaker 1: goes after similar people over and over and over again

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Speaker 1: for these satisfactions than someone else who you know, committed

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Speaker 1: murder either because of anger or something, or or you know,

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Speaker 1: committed a crime and ended up shooting somebody in the

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Speaker 1: process or something like that. Right, And I think one

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Speaker 1: of the main differences is that when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: a real killer, there's not really a lot of hope,

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Speaker 1: you know, no cial killers, there's not really much much

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Speaker 1: to work with there. But the men that I evaluate,

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Speaker 1: I really get to see actual change, which I think

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Speaker 1: is really cool and it's actually sort of a hopeful

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Speaker 1: and a look into redemption. So I prefer that even

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Speaker 1: though working with serial killers and understanding their minds is

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Speaker 1: super fascinating. It's not very hopeful work. Well, like the

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Speaker 1: police officer who need George Floyd, and George Floyd died,

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Speaker 1: you know, he killed him. I don't think he woke

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Speaker 1: up in the morning and said I want to kill

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Speaker 1: some guy. But but but he killed someone. And I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure he's going to get convicted once he goes

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Speaker 1: to trial and everything else. But in a case like that,

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Speaker 1: does he stay in jail for the rest of his life?

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Speaker 1: Or can you rehabilitate somebody like I mean, how do

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Speaker 1: you handle that acts? I think for the most part,

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Speaker 1: most of these sort of everyday or you know, murder

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Speaker 1: or next door types can definitely be rehabilitated if they

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Speaker 1: choose to engage in that process. There's not a tremendous

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Speaker 1: amount of rehabilitation available in prison, which I think is

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Speaker 1: a common misconception that there's all this treatment available for

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Speaker 1: people in prison. It's really not that great. There are

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Speaker 1: self help and other types of programs they can get

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Speaker 1: involved with, but a lot of times short term inmates

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Speaker 1: get access to those programs first. And you know, then

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Speaker 1: in terms of mental health treatment, like of course, you

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Speaker 1: would think, okay, this guy committed murder. He needs therapy.

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Speaker 1: But the way that it works in prison, at least

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Speaker 1: in California, is that you don't really get access to

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Speaker 1: those kinds of services like individual therapy unless you have

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Speaker 1: a through major mental disorder like major depression or schizophrenia.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of the guys who just want to

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Speaker 1: work on developing insight, they don't have that opportunity to

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Speaker 1: do so in therapy. By the way, we have a

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Speaker 1: huge prisoner listenership, and so you were being heard in

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Speaker 1: prisons all around the country right now. Oh wow, that's

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Speaker 1: really cool. Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every

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Speaker 1: weeknight at one am Eastern and go to Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast am dot com for more