Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Cop and police stuff
Speaker 1: is huge for little boys. What age am I going
Speaker 1: to tell him? Like, cops aren't always you know, it's
Speaker 1: his mind. It's like cops are the good guys and
Speaker 1: the bad guys go to jail. Yeah. I think he
Speaker 1: is at a great age to introduce that to him, right,
Speaker 1: And you could talk about the role of police officers.
Speaker 1: They are supposed to serve and protect and because of
Speaker 1: the history of our country, because of things going on,
Speaker 1: that's you know, unfair. Sometimes the police officer thinks somebody's
Speaker 1: a bad guy just because of the color of their skin.
Speaker 1: We have to nuance it for our children so that
Speaker 1: they don't always say cops for the good guy. You know,
Speaker 1: somebody else is the bad guy. How Hello, everybody, Welcome
Speaker 1: back to Katie's Crib. I'm so stoked about today's episode.
Speaker 1: It is continuing our much needed work that we began
Speaker 1: to get into in last seasons of Katie's Crib. I
Speaker 1: have the one and only Dr Tracy Baxley here today
Speaker 1: and we are talking about social justice, parenting and this
Speaker 1: incredible book She wrote that everyone needs to run, not walk,
Speaker 1: to go get if you are a white mama, if
Speaker 1: you are a mama of color, if you are a
Speaker 1: caretaker in any way. I mean, this book just lays
Speaker 1: it out for us, like lays out how to have
Speaker 1: conversations about race and how we can hopefully help our
Speaker 1: kids generation to just do and be better than mine
Speaker 1: and my parents before and their parents before them. Dr
Speaker 1: Tracy Baxley is a professor, consultant, parenting coach, speaker, and
Speaker 1: mother to five biracial children. Five children. She's also the
Speaker 1: creator of Social Justice Parenting and author of Social Justice Parenting,
Speaker 1: How to Raise compassionate, anti racist, justice minded Kids in
Speaker 1: an Unjust World. Dr Baxley has been an educator for
Speaker 1: over thirty years with degrees in child development, elementary Education, curriculum,
Speaker 1: and instruction. She specializes in diversity and inclusion, antibias curriculum,
Speaker 1: and social justice education. Thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: on Katie's Cribs. Dr Baxley, thank you for changing the world,
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for taking the time to
Speaker 1: speak with me and to our listeners. You all Katie's
Speaker 1: Cribbers who listen know that I always have specialists guests
Speaker 1: experts on my show to selfishly make me a better parent,
Speaker 1: And here's one of those examples. So thank you for
Speaker 1: coming on. Can you tell us Dr Baxley, why did
Speaker 1: you write this book? What in your personal experience made
Speaker 1: you write this book. I think it's been a culmination
Speaker 1: of life experiences. But there was one in particular incidents
Speaker 1: in my life as a mom where my son who
Speaker 1: was having anxiety and really in a place of irrational thinking.
Speaker 1: He had just been recently diagnosed with O c D,
Speaker 1: and he left the house in that state, and all
Speaker 1: of the things that I thought I had taught my
Speaker 1: kids about saying safe about the world, about racism, about
Speaker 1: their skin and all those things, it all came crushing
Speaker 1: down on me like did I do enough? Is me
Speaker 1: teaching him this enough to keep him safe? And at
Speaker 1: that moment, I wasn't sure that me doing that was enough?
Speaker 1: And it was kind of the turning point. I really
Speaker 1: believe in this idea of a village and what do
Speaker 1: I need to do to make sure there's a village
Speaker 1: around my children, and how I can be a village
Speaker 1: for other people's children. I have such goose bumps. There's
Speaker 1: a part in your book where you talk about it's
Speaker 1: not just my child, Your children are kept safer by
Speaker 1: helping other children know about our world and other parents.
Speaker 1: How do we speak about race to our children. All
Speaker 1: of this effects our children personally, which is great, But
Speaker 1: really what's great is it it helps the larger collective
Speaker 1: of children. It just became such a community effort. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because here I am like in this paralyzing fear on
Speaker 1: the floor in my bedroom, and my kid is now
Speaker 1: running around in my predominantly white neighborhood, and I am
Speaker 1: freaking out about is he safe? Did I talk to
Speaker 1: my enough of my neighbors? Do I know enough of
Speaker 1: my neighbors and know this is my kid? All those
Speaker 1: thoughts you know that you thought you've kind of protected
Speaker 1: them from or that you have prepared them for, it
Speaker 1: all came crashing down. Hm. We are misaligned if we
Speaker 1: think that we are just raising our own kids. You know,
Speaker 1: I believe in that idea of parenting as activism. You know,
Speaker 1: the things that we do and set our homes, They're
Speaker 1: going to show up in public spaces one we or another.
Speaker 1: And so the question is how do we want our
Speaker 1: kids to show up in the world and how we
Speaker 1: want the world to show up for them. I love
Speaker 1: this and how help us, help us? Help me? Okay?
Speaker 1: What is radical love? Yeah? Radical love is this notion
Speaker 1: that we are loving beyond the people that are in
Speaker 1: our circles. Right. It's about this idea of really showing
Speaker 1: up for people in a way that makes you uncomfortable. Right.
Speaker 1: It's focusing on looking at perspectives, actively listening to other people.
Speaker 1: It's about seeing the humanity and all of us and
Speaker 1: let that be the starting space for how we build relationships.
Speaker 1: And often we we have limits around our love, right,
Speaker 1: or we have check boxes around our love. But radical
Speaker 1: love is about me loving your kids the way I
Speaker 1: love mine, right, Me showing up for them every day,
Speaker 1: things that I do, the things that I teach my children.
Speaker 1: I'm doing that with the thought of how it's going
Speaker 1: to impact your children. Yes, we are all responsible as
Speaker 1: a collective. I'm hoping that through this work on Katie's
Speaker 1: Crib and your book and others like us, our children
Speaker 1: and our children's children will be in a better, more
Speaker 1: radical love place. Part of the book really is talking
Speaker 1: about how we help our kids to self advocate. It's
Speaker 1: our job to model for them how to use big
Speaker 1: emotions in ways that make sense in the social context.
Speaker 1: In your book, you state this word rocks, reflection, open dialogue, compassion, kindness,
Speaker 1: social justice engagement are qualities in what you're talking about
Speaker 1: a pro justice home. Can you tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about rocks and where this came from. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know where it came from. Like, I don't want
Speaker 1: it together, right, I'm like, these are all the things
Speaker 1: that I want to do to make sure my kids
Speaker 1: are doing for themselves. Right, We're doing in our family,
Speaker 1: and we're going to do it in the community. It's
Speaker 1: those three kind of lenses in which we need to practice.
Speaker 1: How are we doing it for ourselves, How are we
Speaker 1: doing it in our family and teaching our kids, and
Speaker 1: then how our family is going out into the world
Speaker 1: to teach it. So they're they're kind of like the
Speaker 1: building blocks of social justice parenting. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people, first of all, they get freaked out by
Speaker 1: the social justice. Right, we're trying to make the words
Speaker 1: social justice something that it's not. It's not this thing
Speaker 1: that we have to be on one side or another about.
Speaker 1: It's not something that we should use to weaponize in
Speaker 1: any way. It's just about basic human rights. We want
Speaker 1: everybody to have the opportunity that they need to have
Speaker 1: the best life. Right. That's what social justice about. Giving
Speaker 1: people the basic needs that they need so they can
Speaker 1: put themselves in the best position possible. Nothing should be
Speaker 1: controversial about that, agreed. And yeah, so the rocks are
Speaker 1: really the building blocks on which social justice parenting is built.
Speaker 1: It's about this idea of reflecting on our own shit
Speaker 1: really right, the things that we we are coming to
Speaker 1: parenting with, being able to separate what's great about it
Speaker 1: and what we need to get rid of it right
Speaker 1: in our parenting. The O is for open dialogue and
Speaker 1: this is like real conversations you have to have with yourself,
Speaker 1: but being honest and where you are in your parenting,
Speaker 1: where you are in your biases and your stereotypes are
Speaker 1: all the things that you hold. And then how we
Speaker 1: have these heart conversations with our children often messy, sometimes
Speaker 1: we don't know how, but we have to have them.
Speaker 1: It's the only way to get through it and to
Speaker 1: change the way we all show up. And then the
Speaker 1: C and the K are compassion and kindness, which go together. Right.
Speaker 1: The compassion is the feeling the Kindness is the action.
Speaker 1: How are we showing up for ourselves? Right? That's my
Speaker 1: heart part. And self compassion is something that I'm working
Speaker 1: on every single day. That's the hardest for me. Um,
Speaker 1: So our kids need to see us doing it for ourselves.
Speaker 1: We need to be showing up for our kids when
Speaker 1: they make mistakes, you know, are they forgiven immediately? Do
Speaker 1: we hold grudges with their kids? You know? We have
Speaker 1: to think about how we are aligning what we do
Speaker 1: with the values that we're trying to teach our kids.
Speaker 1: And then the kindness are the little things that we're
Speaker 1: building habits around where kindness becomes normalize in our homes.
Speaker 1: And then the S is social engagement. So how do
Speaker 1: we see these things going on in the world. Whatever
Speaker 1: those things are for your family that are most important,
Speaker 1: could be an environment, it could be homelessness, whatever that
Speaker 1: thing is for me obviously, it's it's about racial justice
Speaker 1: is part of it. And how do we teach our
Speaker 1: kids to care outside of our home enough to want
Speaker 1: to make change? Yeah, how do you get them to
Speaker 1: be proactive? That's what we need. We need proactive behavior.
Speaker 1: We were so lucky on Katie's cript to have Dr
Speaker 1: Lee Beverly Tatum the show, and she said, we're all
Speaker 1: just walking on this like one of those magic carpets
Speaker 1: at an airport conveyor belt, and so we're all just
Speaker 1: walking on this conveyor belt. And if even if you're
Speaker 1: standing still, you're still moving in a racist world. And
Speaker 1: unless you walk in the opposite direction of the conveyor belt,
Speaker 1: that's being proactive, that's being anti racist. And you're like,
Speaker 1: oh shit, Like okay, I got to teach my kids,
Speaker 1: like that's right. How are you active in your community?
Speaker 1: How do you actively seek change? And that doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be necessary, it's how it is authentic to you,
Speaker 1: but it needs to happen. You talked about this open dialogue.
Speaker 1: What would be dialogue you would recommend children use in
Speaker 1: these hard and unexpected situations. For example, you have an
Speaker 1: experience at an eight week boot camp fitness class before
Speaker 1: you had kids. Can you tell us some how full
Speaker 1: ways a child could have responded? Yeah? Yeah. So the
Speaker 1: moral of the story is the director's child said the
Speaker 1: N word. And my girlfriend I were the only black
Speaker 1: people in the boot camp that we had been in
Speaker 1: for eight weeks, and we thought we were all like
Speaker 1: family and at that moment, nobody stood up for us. Right,
Speaker 1: we just felt like, what the heck? You know, we
Speaker 1: had no allies at that moment and we were caught
Speaker 1: off guard. But sometimes the ally ship doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be anything big. Right if somebody had just touched me
Speaker 1: on the shoulder to say that I felt that I
Speaker 1: wasn't invisible, right, that that their presence was was there.
Speaker 1: Kids can say I don't like the way that feels
Speaker 1: for me, or I am standing with you. It's not
Speaker 1: a big gesture in that moment. People need to feel
Speaker 1: seen and they need to feel protected in a certain sense,
Speaker 1: right that supported and um, sometimes it's just a touch,
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just moving near. So we could teach our
Speaker 1: case to just stand next to the person who is
Speaker 1: being marginalized in some way, and and and sometimes that
Speaker 1: silence of just standing next to them is enough. I'm
Speaker 1: a big proponent and role playing. I think we have
Speaker 1: to say, what if this happens, What are some things
Speaker 1: that we can do that align with our core values
Speaker 1: of in our home that stand up for other people,
Speaker 1: because that's something that's really important to us. What if
Speaker 1: your friend says this about somebody else, let's name three
Speaker 1: things that we can do if this ever happened, What
Speaker 1: if that happens to you? What can you say back
Speaker 1: this way? When the kids are in those situations, they
Speaker 1: don't have to think or be caught off guard because
Speaker 1: in the back of their minds, in their back pockets,
Speaker 1: they've practiced it. So it will automatically. It become automatic
Speaker 1: after a while because they will already have these things ready,
Speaker 1: rehearsed and ready to use. I mean, they'll be looking
Speaker 1: for situations to use it right because they practice them
Speaker 1: so much. Also, it's important that your kids see you
Speaker 1: doing the same thing. So when you see things that
Speaker 1: aren't right, you should be having those conversations with your
Speaker 1: children about it, even when you don't stand up and
Speaker 1: you can say, you know what, I want to talk
Speaker 1: about what happened yesterday. Remember when we heard that ladies
Speaker 1: um say something negative about the other man in line.
Speaker 1: I really wanted to say something, but I was I
Speaker 1: was afraid that is not the way I want to
Speaker 1: show up the next time. So the next time that happens,
Speaker 1: here are some things that I think I'm gonna do differently,
Speaker 1: So they know that sometimes fear will get in the way.
Speaker 1: But we were coming up with ideas to do when
Speaker 1: when fear takes over and we really want to show
Speaker 1: up in a different person. HM. As as far as
Speaker 1: a parent is concerned of how to address being an ally, UM,
Speaker 1: I think it's even harder for us as parents because
Speaker 1: we have lived a life where we haven't done it.
Speaker 1: Where kids are younger and it may be easier for
Speaker 1: them to pick up. And what I find often is
Speaker 1: that as a parent who's learning to walk and do
Speaker 1: the work, UM, you may not get it right the
Speaker 1: first time right. But I think it's really important to
Speaker 1: know if, for instance, in that moment at the boot camp,
Speaker 1: when no other parents, no other adults stood up for me,
Speaker 1: it would have been okay for them to circle back around,
Speaker 1: you know, the next day after thinking about it, or
Speaker 1: the next week and say, you know what, I didn't
Speaker 1: show up the way. I felt so bad. I felt
Speaker 1: paralyzed in the moment, and I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1: Because when you say that you're paralyzed the moment, but
Speaker 1: you're still thinking about it and it bothered you. That
Speaker 1: is letting me know that you're open to learning and
Speaker 1: growing right, and then we can have conversations about what
Speaker 1: what I needed in that moment and really what I
Speaker 1: need in that moment. It's the same thing I would
Speaker 1: tell my kid to do right, stand stand next to
Speaker 1: stand with UM, say that that bothers me. I don't
Speaker 1: feel good using that word or hearing that word that way,
Speaker 1: or looking at me and saying I'm so sorry that happened.
Speaker 1: You don't have to have the answers of what to
Speaker 1: do next, but you can just say I'm sorry that
Speaker 1: that happened to you. But I think circling back to
Speaker 1: have the conversation is really important. That's so good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like not the worst is just pretending this ship isn't
Speaker 1: happening or doesn't happen. That's just like yeah, and we
Speaker 1: don't like you know, we don't always make the right
Speaker 1: choices in the moment. But you have to be you
Speaker 1: have to be big about that enough to say, shit,
Speaker 1: I screwed up, I should have I could have. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to teach my kids to do that. UM, let
Speaker 1: me at least go back and and say something to
Speaker 1: the person. And sometimes too, you have to go back
Speaker 1: to the person who said it and say listen, and
Speaker 1: maybe you want to do it one on one. I
Speaker 1: don't know when you said that to to Tracy, it
Speaker 1: was jacked up. I didn't say anything then, but now
Speaker 1: that I'm reviewing all the stuff that we said, so
Speaker 1: we have to confront the people who said the jacked
Speaker 1: up thing, because maybe they don't realize that it was inappropriate.
Speaker 1: I try to look at life through this lands of
Speaker 1: um assuming good intent, right, like he didn't mean to
Speaker 1: offend me, she didn't mean to offend me, but they did.
Speaker 1: So let me explain to them why it was offensive,
Speaker 1: and hopes that now they know better, they'll do better
Speaker 1: next time. I think we make things more complicated than
Speaker 1: they are. Yes, racism, systemic racism is complicated. But if
Speaker 1: we can teach our kids these little things in their
Speaker 1: lives that starts to make small shifts over time, it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem as big and daunting. Growing up in a
Speaker 1: household where we you know, we had this nineties household
Speaker 1: where we had friends that were all different colors, and
Speaker 1: my parents wouldn't ever have talked about it, and if
Speaker 1: you did, it was like that's not allowed, Like you
Speaker 1: don't say the black friend, you know, you just we
Speaker 1: were like overly washing away any sort of systemic racism
Speaker 1: like that as long as we all love each other
Speaker 1: and they're nice to each other, then we're not racist. Right,
Speaker 1: That's where That's where I'm coming from. Now, that's a
Speaker 1: huge step forward from where their parents were coming from,
Speaker 1: which their parents were coming from, terrible language around people
Speaker 1: of color. You know, we're not friends with people of color,
Speaker 1: those sorts of things. And now where I'm coming from
Speaker 1: is this open dialogue naming race. And it's really been
Speaker 1: such a blessing to have this podcast and to learn.
Speaker 1: For example, I was at a cafe with my son.
Speaker 1: Outside there was a black man and an Asian man
Speaker 1: at a table, and my son was like, look, he
Speaker 1: has black skin. Now I before two years ago, I
Speaker 1: would have been I don't know what to do. I'm horrified.
Speaker 1: Is that bad? Is that good? Why am I freaking out?
Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm freaking out. And thank God
Speaker 1: for the work we're doing. Like you're talking about small changes.
Speaker 1: I say, yeah, he does have black skin. He also
Speaker 1: has this color hair, and she this woman over here
Speaker 1: has yellow hair and you have pink skin, and looked
Speaker 1: at like I started pointing out the people in the
Speaker 1: restaurant and how they everyone had different things going on
Speaker 1: about their appearance and that they were very beautiful and
Speaker 1: things were different. I feel so fortunate to know that
Speaker 1: I that that is the right move. Yeah, that's part
Speaker 1: of the reflection piece, like why am I so afraid
Speaker 1: of this? Where is this coming from? You know? And um,
Speaker 1: how do I now start to unravel this? And I
Speaker 1: think you did great in the pandemic times especially. I
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of the younger kids have not
Speaker 1: had a lot of experiences, truthfully, like being out and
Speaker 1: about because we were isolated. And a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: I am on a new television show on CBS called
Speaker 1: How We Roll and because we're all the show has
Speaker 1: sort of potted up together because we tested every single day.
Speaker 1: After wrap. One day, I said, everyone come over to
Speaker 1: my yard and let's have like a pizza party. And
Speaker 1: I let my son stay up late because he was like,
Speaker 1: holy sh it, they're going to be people over. No
Speaker 1: one ever comes over anymore. So they're in the yard
Speaker 1: and the first person that walks in is this lovely
Speaker 1: actor named Taj Maori. His sister, Tia Maori, was actually
Speaker 1: on the podcast. He's bi racial, black and white, and
Speaker 1: he has very tight, curly black hair and he walked
Speaker 1: in and the first thing my son says is, look, mom,
Speaker 1: he has the same kind of hair as the basketball
Speaker 1: players on television. Okay, so my husband is obsessed with basketball.
Speaker 1: Basketball is on in my house all fucking day, all night.
Speaker 1: So he said that, and I allowedly to Taj, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't even know what to do
Speaker 1: with this, And I said, I don't know whether i'm
Speaker 1: I don't know whether I should apologize that I don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of black people in my house. In
Speaker 1: the last two years, I haven't had anyone really in
Speaker 1: my house. And oh, he sees black people on television
Speaker 1: playing basketball, and that's why he's saying that. Taj was amazing.
Speaker 1: He thought it was sucking larrs. He didn't care, but
Speaker 1: I was trying to like, yes, he has different kind
Speaker 1: of hair, and some people a sand television also have
Speaker 1: that same kind of hair. Then Val walks in, who's
Speaker 1: my co star Pete Holmes wife? And she's incredibly short,
Speaker 1: like very very short. She I'm not she knows. My
Speaker 1: son was like, can I play with her? She's a
Speaker 1: three year old? And I said, she's not a three
Speaker 1: year old, he said, but she's so so, so small,
Speaker 1: she's not a grown up, and it became this whole thing.
Speaker 1: So talk to me about how I should have handled
Speaker 1: that situation better and what I should have said. And
Speaker 1: I think to the pandemic has made everything kind of
Speaker 1: out of sorts, right, We're all trying to figure some
Speaker 1: things out in the pandemic that we didn't have to
Speaker 1: figure out before. I don't think that there's anything wrong
Speaker 1: with what he said, Like, I think it's our baggage.
Speaker 1: What he's seeing is totally okay. And I don't think
Speaker 1: any adult should have been offended by that, but they
Speaker 1: weren't be offended. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think if
Speaker 1: we just let go of the fact that it's not
Speaker 1: coming from us, but it's coming from a kid who
Speaker 1: is curious and who is trying to figure the world out.
Speaker 1: I mean, I like to say stuff like that is
Speaker 1: such a curious question, right. I love that you are
Speaker 1: using the things that you know to try to make
Speaker 1: sense of something new. I mean, that is very smart
Speaker 1: of you. And it also, you know, just from a
Speaker 1: real a real perspective, it buys you a couple more
Speaker 1: minutes to try to figure out what the hell I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say, right, Like you know. Wow, that is a
Speaker 1: great question, and um, you know your curiosity amazes me,
Speaker 1: and um, I really like that question for a lot
Speaker 1: of reasons. But let me tell you what I think
Speaker 1: you know and then go on to say what you think.
Speaker 1: And then the thing the great thing about that is
Speaker 1: you may get it wrong, but you're kids will always
Speaker 1: be open to you. Come back and say, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: last week when you asked me about miss val thinking
Speaker 1: she was a kid. Um, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: gave you the right answer. Tell me what you heard
Speaker 1: me say, right, So then you get to fill out
Speaker 1: what they're thinking and what they got and where the
Speaker 1: gaps are. If you ask me that again today, this
Speaker 1: is what I would say because I had a chance
Speaker 1: to think about it, and um, really internalize your curious question.
Speaker 1: We get to see how much how much of what
Speaker 1: we've taught them landed, or where the gaps still are,
Speaker 1: and what we need to fill in along the way. Developmentally,
Speaker 1: at that age, kids are categorizing that's like normal developmentally
Speaker 1: appropriate behavior. And then we're shutting down them categorizing and
Speaker 1: them noticing same indifferences. Then we're it's really confusing to
Speaker 1: them because they are doing what they are developmentally are
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing. And we put all of our
Speaker 1: adult issues on our kids being naturally curious, and then
Speaker 1: we don't want to squash it curiosity, you know, because
Speaker 1: if they say something about race and you shut them down,
Speaker 1: we are not perpetuating this idea that race is a
Speaker 1: taboo topic to talk about. Exactly, you name a number
Speaker 1: of conversation starters that families can use. This is so helpful.
Speaker 1: This is what I love about your book. These are
Speaker 1: all big, overwhelming, scary things that again, like if you're
Speaker 1: in my situation, you were raised, like we don't talk
Speaker 1: about this. But what's so great about your book is
Speaker 1: that you give us actual life things to do. Who
Speaker 1: I'm such an overachiever, I'm like, yes, Like this is it?
Speaker 1: So you name a number of conversation starters that families
Speaker 1: can use. It in chapter three People, where parents parents
Speaker 1: having social justice conversations with our friends with their kids,
Speaker 1: can you walk us through your favorite Yes, and let
Speaker 1: me say this too. It doesn't have to be like
Speaker 1: very formal setting, right, no, right, It should be like
Speaker 1: whatever we do it in the car. A lot of
Speaker 1: times we do the putting different hard topics and easy
Speaker 1: topics in a jar during dinner we pull them out. WHOA,
Speaker 1: that's so good. Yeah. So there's light questions sometimes that
Speaker 1: we can laugh about, and then some of them are
Speaker 1: heavier that we need to unpack too, finding ways that
Speaker 1: makes sense for your family. It's something that you should
Speaker 1: think about, and it doesn't have to be this hardle
Speaker 1: It's now it's time to talk kind of conversations. Right.
Speaker 1: We keep hearing this on Katie's ccript all the time
Speaker 1: that it's not one one hundred minute conversation, it's one
Speaker 1: one minute conversations. Okay, so tell us walk us through
Speaker 1: three of your favorites. I'm trying to think what I
Speaker 1: wrote in there. I think, um, I like the questions
Speaker 1: that are very open ended, and I also like things
Speaker 1: that are relevant to what's going on in the world.
Speaker 1: So I will, especially with my older kids, I will
Speaker 1: ask them what are you reading on Twitter these days?
Speaker 1: Because my big kids they get their news from Twitter,
Speaker 1: of course. So then that opens up the conversation to
Speaker 1: like real news, fake news, what's real happening? And how
Speaker 1: do we drill a little bit deeper in this, you know?
Speaker 1: And where do we go with that? So open ending
Speaker 1: questions are really great because you get to see what
Speaker 1: your kids already know, um, where the gaps are, what's missing,
Speaker 1: and where you need to drill, where you need to redirect.
Speaker 1: As my kids get older, they want to come up
Speaker 1: with the conversation starters too, which is really cool too.
Speaker 1: That's so cool. So you know, like my kids will
Speaker 1: come up with things like I know my fourth kid
Speaker 1: is at that stage where he thinks he can have
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, and I always say, there's no girlfriends to
Speaker 1: high school, right, So a lot of his questions that
Speaker 1: he asked are around like what is the appropriate age
Speaker 1: to start liking awesome a partner? Like? Where where? Where?
Speaker 1: Does where? Does it state that the sixteen is the
Speaker 1: magic age to like things? Around the things that he's thinking.
Speaker 1: So again, you get to know what your kids are
Speaker 1: thinking because if they come up with their own questions,
Speaker 1: it's something that is on their minds. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: like this. Uh. Some examples that go back to what
Speaker 1: I was saying with Albe at the at the cafe
Speaker 1: that we were at naming race. You know, look at
Speaker 1: your skin in your hair. That's an example, like I
Speaker 1: could say to Albie, look at your skin in your hair?
Speaker 1: What color is your skin? What color is your hair?
Speaker 1: And your friend Caleb has black skin, and he has black, dark,
Speaker 1: dark black hair, and it's longer than yours. And I
Speaker 1: love how beautiful and different they are. How are they
Speaker 1: different to you? When we get it spelled out like that,
Speaker 1: it's just you're like, okay, I can do this, Like
Speaker 1: I can do this, rather than thinking like, oh shoo am,
Speaker 1: I just supposed to sit like before bedtime with the
Speaker 1: four year old, be like, let's talk about race. Children's
Speaker 1: literature is a really great way to to start asking
Speaker 1: these questions, you know, from the point of view of
Speaker 1: somebody else. Huge, you know, cop and police stuff is
Speaker 1: huge for little boys. I don't know. It's in the television.
Speaker 1: It's in the shows we watch. It's in paw Patrol.
Speaker 1: Someone's dressed like a cop. Because I know about the police,
Speaker 1: I'm very like, what the fuck like this is like?
Speaker 1: And he's a boy and he's into it. One of
Speaker 1: the examples you give, which I haven't brought up to
Speaker 1: him yet, is equity, and you can say things like
Speaker 1: we are white, we don't really have to worry that
Speaker 1: a police officer might hurt us. In black communities, many
Speaker 1: people are afraid of the police officers because of the
Speaker 1: history of being unfairly treated. What age am I going
Speaker 1: to tell him, like, cops aren't always you know, it's
Speaker 1: his mind. It's like cops are the good guys and
Speaker 1: the bad guys go to jail. My feelings towards police
Speaker 1: are very complicated. Yeah, I think he is at a
Speaker 1: great age to introduce that to him. Right. So he's
Speaker 1: dressed like a copy, has his copy uniform on, and
Speaker 1: you could talk about the role of police officers. They
Speaker 1: are supposed to serve and protect. If you're a police officer,
Speaker 1: how can you serve and protect people? What could you do? Right?
Speaker 1: They list a lot of things. We can get the
Speaker 1: bad guy, but you know, sometimes the cops don't always
Speaker 1: choose the right bad guy. And because of the history
Speaker 1: of our country, because of things going on, that's you know, unfair.
Speaker 1: Sometimes the police officer thinks somebody's a bad guy just
Speaker 1: because of the color of their skin. Right, So I
Speaker 1: think him being in that uniform, I don't think there's
Speaker 1: anything bad with that. I think that we have to
Speaker 1: nuance it for our children so that they don't always
Speaker 1: say cops to the good guy. You know, somebody else
Speaker 1: is the bad guy. But it's kind of an entry point.
Speaker 1: It is. It's a great entry point. It is a
Speaker 1: great Sometimes you know, the cop isn't always the good guy,
Speaker 1: and sometimes they are wrong. Sometimes they are wrong, and
Speaker 1: they unfairly treat someone who might be a criminal but
Speaker 1: is actually not a criminal. You know, whatever it is,
Speaker 1: but just starting these critical thinking in his head exactly,
Speaker 1: like it's so crazy. Let's he serving who was he protecting.
Speaker 1: Let's have those conversations. Children as change agents, listen, Let's
Speaker 1: look at history. History is telling us everything we need
Speaker 1: to know. When you look at the Civil rights movement, right,
Speaker 1: it was the children who got everything started right because
Speaker 1: the parents were afraid of losing their jobs. They couldn't
Speaker 1: miss work, they were a little bit afraid. It was
Speaker 1: when Dr King sat in that church and all the
Speaker 1: young people, the sit ins, all of those things, that
Speaker 1: is when the change started happening. They see things as
Speaker 1: things should be just and they have the end g
Speaker 1: That's the other thing. I think a lot of moms
Speaker 1: and dads and older they're tired, they're coming at you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard and to have the energy, which we all should.
Speaker 1: But like kids have the energy to make change be
Speaker 1: a huge priority in their life, especially if their parents,
Speaker 1: like you say, are like modeling that behavior and they
Speaker 1: don't have that baggage called fear. That's it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we are thinking about all the things that can go
Speaker 1: wrong and all the things that could be and protecting
Speaker 1: and and the kids are like, no, this is not right.
Speaker 1: We need to make it right. It is never too
Speaker 1: early to have challenging conversations about race and racism. Yeah, never.
Speaker 1: And your book is so helpful with this, but you
Speaker 1: can talk about social justice issues with children. The script
Speaker 1: goes from preschool to elementary to preteen and teen years.
Speaker 1: Like we just gave the example for like a cop
Speaker 1: for a four year old versus that conversation for a
Speaker 1: white kid who's a teenager, I'm sure is very different. Right,
Speaker 1: Getting pulled over for you is a different scenario than
Speaker 1: getting pulled over. If your friend who is black word
Speaker 1: to get pulled over by a police, his parents are
Speaker 1: having very different conversations with him, then we are with
Speaker 1: you and you need to know that. Just really, Katie,
Speaker 1: A really great point is that white families have to
Speaker 1: be having those conversations too, Like your kid needs to
Speaker 1: know that the conversation of my house is different and
Speaker 1: why that is and why we still need to have
Speaker 1: those conversations. And I think that that gives me hope,
Speaker 1: Like I talked about that idea of active hope in
Speaker 1: the book, because there are days that I feel like
Speaker 1: I don't want to get out of bed, like things
Speaker 1: are so heavy and things are so like we're going
Speaker 1: backwards in so many ways. But is that active hope
Speaker 1: that one person that's following me asked me a question
Speaker 1: that I helped them get through that situation. One white
Speaker 1: mom is thinking about my son when she hasn't. She's
Speaker 1: having a conversation with her son. These small little ripples
Speaker 1: are the things that really kind of keep me moving forward.
Speaker 1: When people say something like I don't see color, I
Speaker 1: don't think we can learn this enough. It really needs
Speaker 1: to learn. Why is I don't see color offensive? Because
Speaker 1: it's a lie. First of all, it's a lie, right,
Speaker 1: and your kids know it's a lie. They're like, well, mam,
Speaker 1: I dou see color. I I can see it. And
Speaker 1: what it does, really it it negates everything about systemic
Speaker 1: racism um that we know right, what you're saying to
Speaker 1: me is my experiences my lived experiences, the injustices that
Speaker 1: I feel as a black woman is erased, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter because I don't see any of that.
Speaker 1: So by not seeing color, you're really saying that you
Speaker 1: don't see anything about me, any of my struggles that
Speaker 1: we can really need to work on as a society
Speaker 1: when you have just made me and my color invisible.
Speaker 1: So you're really denying that person their lived experiences when
Speaker 1: you're saying I don't see color. We can't work on
Speaker 1: something that we don't acknowledge that we see. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: come on, guys, yeah, no we can. We are so
Speaker 1: screwed if we do that. Young children's natural inclination is
Speaker 1: to take action. This is I'm quoting you. They want
Speaker 1: to know what they can do to help. So I
Speaker 1: have a list of ideas that your family can do together.
Speaker 1: Can you give us some examples of how we can
Speaker 1: be practicing outside our home with our families social justice actions? Yes,
Speaker 1: And like I said, you know, your social justice is
Speaker 1: going to be different from my social justice. Right. When
Speaker 1: I work with families, the first thing I do is like,
Speaker 1: do you have core values? Right? What are the core
Speaker 1: values are your family? Are they written down? Have you
Speaker 1: discussed them with your kids, to say, this is our
Speaker 1: GPS here, right, These three or four core values are
Speaker 1: the things that whenever we get off, whenever we don't
Speaker 1: know what we're doing, whatever we make mistakes, we come
Speaker 1: back to these core values for them to say, did
Speaker 1: you answer that from this perspective, then the thing that
Speaker 1: you do, how you showed up doesn't match with what
Speaker 1: we say. It's important to us as a legacy that
Speaker 1: we're gonna leave. So that's a real proactive thing to
Speaker 1: do in your home, sitting down with your kids, creating
Speaker 1: core values, writing them on the refrigerator, putting them up
Speaker 1: on posting notes. What would some examples of core values be? Okay,
Speaker 1: So for my family, one of our core values is
Speaker 1: you are your brother or your sister's keeper. Like whatever
Speaker 1: goes down with your friends, whatever goes down in the world,
Speaker 1: whatever goes down with your parents. You got your brother's back,
Speaker 1: so you are your brother's keepers. Is one. Another one
Speaker 1: in my house is we have little phrases to help
Speaker 1: them remember. But the other one is on your own jump.
Speaker 1: So you can't come and tell me what your teacher
Speaker 1: said to you or what your coach said to you.
Speaker 1: Until you tell me from their perspective first. So first
Speaker 1: you have to say this is what I did, you know,
Speaker 1: and then okay, now let's back up and say whether
Speaker 1: what they did was appropriate or not. So it's taking
Speaker 1: responsibility essentially, absolutely absolutely, Yeah, so on your own jump.
Speaker 1: So those are the things that you either come up with.
Speaker 1: I mean, your kid is for so he could really
Speaker 1: start being a part of that. What are these corps?
Speaker 1: What it is important to our family? Yeah, and those
Speaker 1: need to be written down, signed off on the refrigerator,
Speaker 1: on canvas so they will always know that, you know
Speaker 1: what we I was screaming at you today and that's
Speaker 1: not part of our core values. I need a minute, right,
Speaker 1: I need some space and grades, and then let me
Speaker 1: figure out how it can come back. You know, that
Speaker 1: wasn't in alignment with our career values. I'm gonna apologize
Speaker 1: to you. I was hungry, I was angry, I had
Speaker 1: a deadline, and you were basically the victim. And I'm
Speaker 1: apologizing for that. I'm very sorry. But now I want
Speaker 1: to come back in in in a way that is
Speaker 1: aligned with our core values. So coming up with core values,
Speaker 1: I think it is the first thing that way, you know,
Speaker 1: what's important to you, so that when you are out
Speaker 1: in the world, whether it's through activism, through environmental issues,
Speaker 1: you know, social justice issues, donating toys, donating books, taking
Speaker 1: care of kids who are hungry, someone who's doing less,
Speaker 1: those are all great ways to start the thing that's
Speaker 1: a low kind of low hanging fruit that's easy that
Speaker 1: you guys, that lights your family up, is a great
Speaker 1: way to start that. And then when they are comfortable
Speaker 1: doing that, that's when you get to more the heavier things.
Speaker 1: What can young children do if they want to participate
Speaker 1: in movements such as Black Lives Matter movement and other
Speaker 1: than marching and toddlers are too young to engage, I
Speaker 1: think in the internet activism, social media aspect of it.
Speaker 1: But what other ways can they get involved? I think
Speaker 1: you creating diversity in your household, you normalizing black excellence,
Speaker 1: and the choices that you make your doctors, right, your pediatrician,
Speaker 1: your dentists, your are are any of these people people
Speaker 1: of color? Or do they all look like you? Right?
Speaker 1: So we want those faces to look like the society
Speaker 1: at large. Right. So I think when they're too young
Speaker 1: to actually do things, the way you establish your household
Speaker 1: around diversity is really important because the messages that that
Speaker 1: you're sending to them is that we're different, but we're equal.
Speaker 1: It's your responsibility to expose them to diversity and differences
Speaker 1: and normalize that in their vives. As we're wrapping up,
Speaker 1: we always ask, parenthood is messy. That's a great one.
Speaker 1: It's joyous and messy. Yes, that is so so great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're gonna get it wrong a lot, but we're going
Speaker 1: to admit it, and then we're going to take our
Speaker 1: time and figure out how we would have better liked
Speaker 1: to have come to the answer, and then come back
Speaker 1: and have like a nice not so precious conversation where
Speaker 1: we're open and vulnerable and reflective that we can then
Speaker 1: take out into our communities to make some active change.
Speaker 1: This has been so wonderful, so informative, and we appreciate
Speaker 1: you and all the work that you are doing. Dr Baxley,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on Katie's Crib. Thank
Speaker 1: you Katie, thanks for having me. This is fun. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad. We are so lucky to have you.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.
Speaker 1: I hope you got out of it as much as
Speaker 1: I did, and I want to hear from you topics, guests,
Speaker 1: things you want to talk about. I am here. You
Speaker 1: can always find me at Katie's Crib at shondaland dot com.
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
Speaker 1: with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
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