WEBVTT - Bonus: In Conversation with Libby Copeland, Pt. 2 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:11.360 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.880 Danny Shapiro and this is part two of a special 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:21.119 bonus episode of Family Secrets. I'm speaking with journalist and 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:26.000 author Libby Copeland about DNA discoveries that unleashed the long 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:29.800 held secrets that affect so many of our lives, and 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:33.320 how as a society we can learn to grow, evolve, 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:44.760 change and understand one another. There's a pretty big leap 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:48.320 of empathy that needs to be made for people who 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:52.600 have never considered or had the experience them themselves of 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:57.560 that kind of disruption to their origin story. UM, just 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.880 thinking what difference does it make? Or a favorite line 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.200 that was delivered to me on an index card in 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:06.800 you know during a Q and A UM was what 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.360 good is knowing? And I almost like laughed when I 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:12.480 was like, I actually kept that index card and I 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:14.679 have it pinned to my bulletin board in my office 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:19.840 because what is what good is knowing? It's everything? And 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.839 you know, in Family Secrets, UM, in every episode, whether 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:25.760 it ends up in the final episode or not, I 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:30.000 always ask my guests, UM, you know who's like Family 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.640 Secret were unpacking? Um, do you wish you hadn't found 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.840 out do you wish you hadn't known? And not a 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:43.000 single one in thirty guests thus far, no one has said, yes, 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.880 I wish I didn't know? No one um. In fact, 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.680 one of my favorite responses was from my friend Sylvia Borstein, 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:54.480 who is UM a mindfulness Buddhist meditation teacher in her eighties, 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:57.280 and she just we were in person, and she looked 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:59.680 at me and she said, do I what do I do? 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.000 I do I wish I had? I mean, she couldn't 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:06.400 even understand the question of like, how could you possibly 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.440 wish that you didn't know? And and that doesn't mean 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:16.400 that it's not painful and hard, but the relief that 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.160 that people feel because that whole in the heart that 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.920 you're talking about, like I think with people who have 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.760 always known that they were adopted and who didn't have 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:31.360 access to UM their birth parents or their origin story. 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:37.440 The term in adoption literature is genealogical bewilderment um, the 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.720 sense of sort of walking around just not knowing UM. 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.200 And so that's I would say probably what people describe 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.359 of describe as the whole in their hearts. But then 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.560 there's the not knowing and then not knowing that you 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.080 don't know, which is the case with so many people 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.680 whose stories have been withheld from them. And that is 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:01.440 a differ kind of hole in the heart. That's like 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.040 a that's a hole in the heart that you don't 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:06.440 know as a hole in your heart. You just you 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.040 just have this ache, but you don't the ache doesn't 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.840 have a name, it doesn't have a story attached to it. 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.120 And so when it does um, And this is not 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.560 just this isn't just my experience, it's experience of everyone 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.959 that I've talked to. There's just a feeling amid amid 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:30.240 all the shock and pain and confusion and disorientation of 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:37.560 palpable relief, like, h this makes so much sense. Yes, yeah, 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.160 and kind of like the people would talk to me about. 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.240 There's a sense of excavating. So you make the discovery 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:46.680 and then in the days and weeks and months that follow, 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:51.200 there's this process of unbidden excavation of the past where 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.680 these memories arise and all of a sudden, you know 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:00.440 makes sense, these memories you know of an her action 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.200 with your mom where she said something and then you 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:05.640 haven't thought about it in thirty years, and suddenly you're 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.040 putting that statement that she made into a different context 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.040 and it's like ping. And so there's this kind of 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:16.080 emotional archaeology that people would talk about where they were 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:20.000 they were processing, they were reprocessing everything from once upon 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:23.240 a Time on forward, and they were reprocessing it with 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.640 the knowledge that put everything into a different perspective. And 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.839 there's a term that you use UM in one of 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:33.719 your interviews, unsought known And I don't know if that's 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.120 exactly what this is, but it's like this sense of 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.600 kind of sensing something but maybe not even totally admitting 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:44.040 it to yourself if I if I have it right? UM? 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.560 And so again the number again we're talking about commonalities, right, 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.279 and how how do these many many different experiences among 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.560 many different people of different ages and different demographics, how 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:58.920 do they align themselves with one another? Because that's part 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.280 of the in amazing thing about this moment is the 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.920 human nous commonalities of the human experience. UM. And one 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.680 of the things over and over is that people would 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.440 say to me, and I'm sure they've said to you, 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.800 you know I, UM, I kind of always wondered about that, 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.039 even if I never quite totally admitted it or I 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.720 always had questions or now it all makes sense, right, 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.560 And there may be for some people. I did interview 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.000 people who said they had never an inkling at all UM, 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.400 but enough of them who did that it it may 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.080 be that there's a kind of a like a like 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.839 a nascent knowledge, like you said, you know, a feeling 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.440 of um outsiderness, or maybe little things that you pick 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:46.400 up on that add together into this this just this 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:52.240 kind of I don't know, diaphanous, gauzy sense of nagging question. 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:58.520 And then the DNA test comes along and it's like 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:05.000 there's the question solidified right there, and there's an answer 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:09.600 absolutely no. That's that's beautifully put. And the unsought known, 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.840 which is a psychoanalytic term UM, you know, really refers 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.719 to that which we we know, like we know it 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:18.919 in our bones. We know it, you know, we know 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.919 it like when we talk about a sixth sense, but 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.920 we we it's too dangerous to articulate to ourselves, so 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:31.159 we never actually consciously think it. It's more like, you know, why, 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:37.400 why would anyone really ever entertain the thought that, well, 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.280 maybe this isn't my biological parent. It's just it's it's 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:44.599 there's so much confirmation bias and so much need to 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.640 I mean, I adored my father and UM and felt 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:52.520 so incredibly connected to him and still do um even 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:54.480 though he's been gone for more than half of my life. 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.720 But the to ever think the thought maybe he's not 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:04.160 my biological father would have been impossible for me. And yet, 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.359 and yet there is a way in which I knew, 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.640 you know that that I that that I never thought it. 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.559 But when I went back and read my early work 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.559 as a writer, it's in there. It's like a trail 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:21.120 of bread crumbs. It's like it's like the unconscious made 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.120 conscious um or the unconscious like on the page there 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:28.480 it is UM. So I actually have something that even 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.320 amounts to a kind of proof of the unsought known 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.000 in my own in my own life. But um, if 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.840 if someone had put you know, you've given me a 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.760 polygraph or whatever and said, you know, do you think 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.200 that your father isn't your biological father? What are you 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.880 talking about? What? What? What? What? What could possibly give 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.119 you that idea? I think that's why the fact that 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:52.840 the various companies put up a warning saying you may 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.880 discover unexpected relatives. I think that's why those warnings don't 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.480 take root. I mean, you just sort of explained it. 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.600 So therefully, it kind of all clicked into place in 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.760 my brain. There's there's yeah, of course, even like and 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.560 even as you're saying, even if you're someone who on 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:15.160 some less unconscious level could have questioned it, maybe questioned it, 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:20.120 you could, you've got a non unconscious level exactly. And 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.800 so a warning is not it's it's as good as 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.800 a puff of smoke. Will be back in a moment 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:33.560 with more family secrets. You know. There's also this this 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.280 part of it that has to do with sort of 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:42.040 basic human instincts or kind of like a primal way 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.800 of of of reacting to things. Which is that another 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:50.240 thing that I noticed in the you know, the other 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.280 side of this, not the seekers, but the people who 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:59.000 um were either the secret keepers or the donors, you know, 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:03.120 or the um the sort of world around the secret 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.360 keepers and the donors UM is that or or or 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.160 not donors. And it could be the same thing if 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:15.760 somebody had an affair that when when someone approaches a family, 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:20.480 that or a person who believes that they know the 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.400 outer perimeter of their family they you know, they have 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.080 three kids, or you know, they they know their story, 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.640 they know the story of their family. And suddenly there's 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:34.120 a person, an interloper, an outsider, sending an email or 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.199 sending a letter or making a phone call and saying, 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.360 I just don't really understand this, but I it seems 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.559 were related. It seems that you might be my half sibling, 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:48.239 or you might be my biological parent. I don't understand. 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:55.520 The first um reaction, almost across the board is to 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.960 feel threatened. M what do you want for me? Yeah, 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.000 it often goes to somehow the financial you know, are 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.679 you looking for something you want? You want? Even people 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.920 who don't have two nickels to rub together are like, 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:11.679 you want my money? You know? Is that? Why? Is 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.520 that why you're contacting me? And it's a primitive I 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.600 think like, um, it probably has a kind of biological 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:24.640 route in we know, you know, we know where we think, 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.839 we know who are kin is and our and our 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.600 kin are usually people who are our kin biologically and 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.560 who we know, who we've raised or who we've you know, 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:41.680 existed with in a family dynamic. And then it upends 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.720 the idea of what that is. Yeah, it up ends 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:50.800 things that people consider sacred because it's you know, it's 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.600 it's disrupted to your narrative of your father if say 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.480 he conceived a child while he was married to your 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:02.160 mother UM or even before her UM, it would seem 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.240 to conflict. For some people, it would seem to conflict 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:10.360 with his loyalty to you. UM. Now, if you've grown 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.280 up with four siblings instead of three, you wouldn't question 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.360 his loyalty to you. But to have three siblings and 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:20.959 suddenly there's a fourth um. You know, in my book 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.880 I write about you know, people's reactions. There there's the 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.760 father who deletes his kid because he doesn't want a 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.920 relationship with his with his daughter. There's the the father 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.559 who sends a cease and desist letter to his daughter. UM. 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:40.200 Very often women doing the seeking I found UM and UM. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:42.760 You know, there's a case of a woman who her 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:44.839 parents are no longer alive, but she reaches out to 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.280 her siblings on both sides. She's adopted and she finds 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.520 her her the identity of her genetic parents, her late parents, 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.080 and she reaches out to siblings on both sides, and 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.000 one side basically says, listen, our dad was not a 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.840 great guy and this is like just really painful and upsetting, 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.200 you know, having a relationship with you reminds us of him, 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.480 and we don't. We don't have great memories of him, 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.560 so no, thank you. And on the other side, her 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:15.840 mother's siblings, her mother's children, they're basically like, wait a minute. 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.640 You know you're telling us that our mother before we 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.679 were born, had a baby, never told us about it, 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.120 gave that baby up at four days old by putting 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:28.120 that baby in a basket on a pastor's doorstep. No now, 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:33.160 because you know, for us to incorporate this story into 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.679 our memories of our late mother is to invite all 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.760 sorts of questions about her personality, her character, her values, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.160 her the limits of her maternal love. No thank you, 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:49.560 and and and in that instance, um, you know, denial 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.160 can be a really powerful thing. And the sisters basically said, 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.280 like twenty three and me is wrong. Oh shut it 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.280 says we're half siblings on this relative chart. But you 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:03.320 know they have made a mistake. Um, And no amount 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:08.160 of fact finding or evidence bearing is going to alter 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.520 alter their perception, because that's it's it's not a question 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:15.920 of fact, it's a question of of emotion and honestly 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.480 sacred truth. Like narratives like you know you have a 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:21.920 you have an understanding of your family. You have an 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:26.760 understanding of who your mom was, and um, you know, 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.920 it's it's an interesting you know, writing The Lost Family, 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:32.000 I told a lot of stories of the seekers. These 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.240 are the people who are testing, These are the people 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:38.520 who are finding out about themselves. There's they have a 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.199 lot of agency, they have a lot of autonomy. They're there. 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.120 It's painful, but they're glad to know. And on the 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.040 other side are the stories of people who are not 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.200 talking because these are not these these are secrets, So 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.679 these are not stories that they're telling. So you know, 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.920 if I'm writing about a woman and she's reaching out 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.000 to her father and he deletes his kid, I'm basically 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.160 writing around the negative space of his response rather than 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:09.600 interviewing him. Um. And that's an interesting thing to think about. 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.080 I think as as we go into this new world, 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.120 is you know, what is it like for the people 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:18.920 on the other side, and and you know, what stories 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.080 do they have to tell, if any? And and is 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.720 there a way And honestly I don't know the answer 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.800 to this, but is there a way to make it 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:32.920 easier for everyone to um, to reconcile because I know 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:35.760 and and maybe that's not maybe that's not the right 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.520 question to ask because maybe, um, maybe that doesn't include 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:41.200 enough of the experiences of the people who are being 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.480 sought and don't want to be found. UM. But you know, 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.520 there can be a lot of trauma and pain on 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:49.400 the other side too. You know, if you were an 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.080 unwed mother so forced to give up your child, or 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:59.200 who endured a active coersion or rape. Um. You know, 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:06.000 these these experiences of being found can be incredibly painful. UM. 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.080 And I mean, it's a question without an answer, but 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:11.800 but it was one of the things that I really 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:17.080 thought was so um moving and difficult to write about, 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.920 was this idea that you take two people who are 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.680 closely genetically related, and they're at the very beginning of 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.200 what could be an intimate relationship in their meeting for 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.400 the first time, and their interests can seem to be 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.720 in conflict at exactly the moment when they most need 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:37.280 to not be in conflict. UM. And it doesn't you know, 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:41.160 it just doesn't always have a happy ending. Unfortunately. I 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:45.600 wonder how it might be possible for the people who 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.600 are sought, you know who who don't have agency in 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.800 that sense, they didn't ask to be sought. UM. They 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.480 in some cases hadn't known that there was a secret, 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.640 In other cases, have kept a secret all their lives. 0:15:57.640 --> 0:15:59.960 In other cases haven't even thought of it as a secrets, 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.520 have just thought of it as something like, in the 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.360 case of donors, something that they did when they were 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.560 twenty two years old, um and never thought about again, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:12.960 UM and ascribe no importance to And we're not hearing 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:17.360 the voices of those people. Why because it's a secret. 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.360 And so in in the same way that nothing has 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:25.760 been until very recently, nothing has been studied about the 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:33.480 implications psychologically and emotionally of um donor conception or you know, 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.040 sort of just secrecy when it comes to identity, uh, 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.040 kept from children. Now there hasn't. There haven't been long 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.920 term studies about any of that because no one was 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.600 talking because it was a secret. Now that's starting to 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.760 not be the case for a whole host of reasons. 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:55.960 And people are talking and and are making these discoveries 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.560 by the you know, thousands per week or making these 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.800 discover reas just because of the sheer numbers of people 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:06.240 who are still purchasing and taking you home DNA tests. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.399 But the people on the other side of that, the 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.719 family is that that these people, and I include myself 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.280 in these people, you know, basically come crashing into like, Hi, 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.040 you know, you know, Hi, it's me. I think you're 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.240 my biological father. I know this is going to be shocking, 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.960 but you know that's that's I mean, I'm always taken 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.040 aback when people ask me, did you think long and 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:33.679 hard before you reached out to your biological father? And 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.960 the answer is I didn't think at all. I was 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.720 I was in survival mode. I was trying to put 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.040 together the pieces of me and the puzzle of me. 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:46.400 As as you were saying before, UM, I was completely 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.720 unmoored and and it really felt like a matter of 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.520 um of survival for me. And I think that that 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.600 is true for many people who make this discovery UM 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.760 and are shocked by it. But on the other side 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.000 of the at there is often an elderly person, a 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.520 person who has his own children, a person who gave 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.960 up a child for adoption and it's always been painful, 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.520 who never who maybe never told her own you know, 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.520 a husband of many years or or grown children. I mean, 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:20.800 there's so many ways in which our narratives can become upended. 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.000 And yet the question that I think is going to 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.320 you know, preoccupy bioethicists and and and maybe really needs 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:32.480 to be asked more is what can we do to 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:39.159 um to make this UM the fact of this connection, 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.520 you know, the truth of this something that we can 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:48.000 all tolerate, at least enough to be kind to each other. So, 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.720 in the case of the story you were telling from 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:55.600 your book, the mother's the mother's family, her her children, 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:57.840 who say, that's just not that can't be the case. 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.160 We can't square that with our memory of our other. 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.640 She never would have done that. They're actually dealing with 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:11.200 the same level of traumatic discovery as the the person 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:15.560 in your book who's discovering who her biological her birth 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.680 parents really were. But no, but but they're not there. 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.760 But they're not able to make that empathic leap to 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.920 this is another human being and she's suffering. UM. Right, 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.080 it's it's my sacred truth and conflict with your sacred truth, 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:33.160 so yours, So yours has to be wrong. UM. And 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:38.080 I mean the terrible thing for the seeker in that situation, 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.560 whose name is Jackie UM the woman in my book 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.680 is that you know, and for many other people who 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:48.119 are doing the seeking, is you to it's such an 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.879 unfair thing for them to have to basically be the 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.800 messenger of their own existence, right. They don't blame the messenger. 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:59.000 That's that's the saying. Um, if I come knocking on 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.359 your door and I say, hey, my name is Libby, 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:08.560 and I exist and I'm your father's child, Um, you know, 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:13.560 I bear the brunt of all the um emotions that 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.280 you would bring to any messenger of such news if 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:19.800 it were not welcome. And yet it is me. It 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.280 is me, me vulnerable me. I mean in many ways, 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.359 the person is doing the seeking is is twice vulnerable 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.119 because they're they're looking for connection with their genetic ken. 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.320 And then they also have to be the one to 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.040 bring the news. And the person bringing the news of 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.240 something that could be disruptive to the person on the 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.600 other side is possibly going to catch some flat for that, 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.919 and then they feel very rejected and um. You know. 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.520 The the extent of the support for people in these 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.560 positions is basically Facebook groups. And there's all these Facebook 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.679 groups and you see over and over, you know, people 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.560 writing about I reached out to my my birth mother, 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:00.560 she doesn't want anything to do with me. I reached 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.960 out to my biological daddy doesn't want anything to do 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:04.800 with me. I reached out to my siblings and they've 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.439 they've rejected me, and um, you know, said this as 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:14.480 a hoax or whatever, and um, you know, it's it's heartbreaking, 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.840 it's it's heartbreaking this The stories really run the gamut. 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:22.120 There are some that are beautiful and you think, man 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.520 like that's that's a gorgeous story. That makes me cry, 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.960 And there are some that are so sad that they 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:33.199 make you cry for different reasons. Um, and uh, you 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.000 just you know, it's a bit of a roulette wheel. 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:37.919 You don't you don't know what you're gonna get, and 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.920 you can't control. You can't control the outcome. You can't 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:45.720 control how this person who on the other side, who's 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.480 who's genetically very related to you but is a stranger, 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.040 how they're going to respond to the news that you're 0:21:54.040 --> 0:22:01.720 bringing them, will be right back. I want to ask 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.119 you one last question. I could I could talk to 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:06.320 you for we should we should have a three hour 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:10.240 podcast about this, because it's just you're saying such amazing things. 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.800 But um, you know, you touch, you touch in your 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:19.840 book on regulation and the Future, and you know the 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:24.000 question of there's still so many structures that are in 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:29.040 place that promote the possibility of keeping things a secret, 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:34.600 even as the impossibility of it being kept a secret 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:37.560 is upon us. I mean, I can't tell you how 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:40.280 many people will say to me, you know, and you 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.040 and I touched on this before, but we'll say to me, well, 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:44.640 I'm not going to do one of those tests because 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:48.040 i don't want anybody finding me. And you know, I'm like, well, 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:51.720 good luck with that. Or you know, we are all 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:55.320 we are reaching a point where the the the web 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:59.639 of data, genetic data connecting us is going to be 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.440 you know, pretty much. You know, it's already not dependent 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:07.560 on whether somebody actually orders in one of these tests 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.160 and spits into the two. But do you have any 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:16.680 thoughts about sort of moving forward, what would be helpful 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.920 aside from the idea that you know, I think it's 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:25.639 very very interesting that the seekers and the sought um 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:33.280 both need their own kind of support and study and understanding. Yeah, 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:35.920 you know, I think I think, for one thing, it's 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:39.159 very clear that fertility banks can't promise anonymity to their 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.200 sperm donors anymore, UM, and I think that that needs 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:46.359 to be very um up front UM, it needs to 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:50.720 be very clear uh that UM anonymous sperm donor is 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:55.160 an oxymoron at this point, egg donors too. Yeah, and 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:57.680 you know that should just be something that's made clear 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:03.159 to someone as they're donating UM and UM. You know 0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:08.720 that's that's pretty much a ship that has failed. UM. 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:11.040 You know, I do think there's a great need for 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:16.480 UM bioethical and psychological research. UM. I don't think there's 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:19.879 I don't think there's sort of putting any cat in 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.399 the bag, so to speak, like, I don't think that 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:27.720 there's UM. In my reporting and interviewing, I haven't heard 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:30.160 anyone say, well, you know, here's how we could regulate 0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:33.240 DNA testing or here's how we should Now maybe I'm 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:35.760 just not in the conversations where that's being proposed, at 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:38.119 least not for the reasons that we're talking about. In 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:41.879 other words, nobody is talking about a method that would 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:45.879 UM permit this industry to exist and also at the 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:50.280 same time make it impossible to find unexpected genetic family 0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:54.879 if you wanted that outcome, which it's not clear to me. 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:57.680 It's not clear to me that that you would. I mean, 0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:01.400 given given the number of people who say that as 0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:04.040