1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is part two of a special 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: bonus episode of Family Secrets. I'm speaking with journalist and 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: author Libby Copeland about DNA discoveries that unleashed the long 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: held secrets that affect so many of our lives, and 6 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: how as a society we can learn to grow, evolve, 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: change and understand one another. There's a pretty big leap 8 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: of empathy that needs to be made for people who 9 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: have never considered or had the experience them themselves of 10 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: that kind of disruption to their origin story. UM, just 11 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: thinking what difference does it make? Or a favorite line 12 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: that was delivered to me on an index card in 13 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: you know during a Q and A UM was what 14 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: good is knowing? And I almost like laughed when I 15 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: was like, I actually kept that index card and I 16 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: have it pinned to my bulletin board in my office 17 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: because what is what good is knowing? It's everything? And 18 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 1: you know, in Family Secrets, UM, in every episode, whether 19 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: it ends up in the final episode or not, I 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: always ask my guests, UM, you know who's like Family 21 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: Secret were unpacking? Um, do you wish you hadn't found 22 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: out do you wish you hadn't known? And not a 23 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: single one in thirty guests thus far, no one has said, yes, 24 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: I wish I didn't know? No one um. In fact, 25 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: one of my favorite responses was from my friend Sylvia Borstein, 26 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: who is UM a mindfulness Buddhist meditation teacher in her eighties, 27 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: and she just we were in person, and she looked 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: at me and she said, do I what do I do? 29 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: I do I wish I had? I mean, she couldn't 30 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: even understand the question of like, how could you possibly 31 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: wish that you didn't know? And and that doesn't mean 32 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: that it's not painful and hard, but the relief that 33 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: that people feel because that whole in the heart that 34 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: you're talking about, like I think with people who have 35 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: always known that they were adopted and who didn't have 36 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: access to UM their birth parents or their origin story. 37 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: The term in adoption literature is genealogical bewilderment um, the 38 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: sense of sort of walking around just not knowing UM. 39 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: And so that's I would say probably what people describe 40 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: of describe as the whole in their hearts. But then 41 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: there's the not knowing and then not knowing that you 42 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: don't know, which is the case with so many people 43 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: whose stories have been withheld from them. And that is 44 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: a differ kind of hole in the heart. That's like 45 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: a that's a hole in the heart that you don't 46 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: know as a hole in your heart. You just you 47 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: just have this ache, but you don't the ache doesn't 48 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: have a name, it doesn't have a story attached to it. 49 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: And so when it does um, And this is not 50 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: just this isn't just my experience, it's experience of everyone 51 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: that I've talked to. There's just a feeling amid amid 52 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: all the shock and pain and confusion and disorientation of 53 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: palpable relief, like, h this makes so much sense. Yes, yeah, 54 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: and kind of like the people would talk to me about. 55 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: There's a sense of excavating. So you make the discovery 56 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: and then in the days and weeks and months that follow, 57 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: there's this process of unbidden excavation of the past where 58 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: these memories arise and all of a sudden, you know 59 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: makes sense, these memories you know of an her action 60 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: with your mom where she said something and then you 61 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: haven't thought about it in thirty years, and suddenly you're 62 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: putting that statement that she made into a different context 63 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: and it's like ping. And so there's this kind of 64 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: emotional archaeology that people would talk about where they were 65 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: they were processing, they were reprocessing everything from once upon 66 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: a Time on forward, and they were reprocessing it with 67 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: the knowledge that put everything into a different perspective. And 68 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: there's a term that you use UM in one of 69 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: your interviews, unsought known And I don't know if that's 70 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: exactly what this is, but it's like this sense of 71 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: kind of sensing something but maybe not even totally admitting 72 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: it to yourself if I if I have it right? UM? 73 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: And so again the number again we're talking about commonalities, right, 74 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: and how how do these many many different experiences among 75 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: many different people of different ages and different demographics, how 76 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: do they align themselves with one another? Because that's part 77 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: of the in amazing thing about this moment is the 78 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: human nous commonalities of the human experience. UM. And one 79 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: of the things over and over is that people would 80 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: say to me, and I'm sure they've said to you, 81 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: you know I, UM, I kind of always wondered about that, 82 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: even if I never quite totally admitted it or I 83 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: always had questions or now it all makes sense, right, 84 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: And there may be for some people. I did interview 85 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: people who said they had never an inkling at all UM, 86 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: but enough of them who did that it it may 87 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: be that there's a kind of a like a like 88 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: a nascent knowledge, like you said, you know, a feeling 89 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: of um outsiderness, or maybe little things that you pick 90 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: up on that add together into this this just this 91 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, diaphanous, gauzy sense of nagging question. 92 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: And then the DNA test comes along and it's like 93 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: there's the question solidified right there, and there's an answer 94 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: absolutely no. That's that's beautifully put. And the unsought known, 95 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: which is a psychoanalytic term UM, you know, really refers 96 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: to that which we we know, like we know it 97 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: in our bones. We know it, you know, we know 98 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: it like when we talk about a sixth sense, but 99 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: we we it's too dangerous to articulate to ourselves, so 100 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: we never actually consciously think it. It's more like, you know, why, 101 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: why would anyone really ever entertain the thought that, well, 102 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: maybe this isn't my biological parent. It's just it's it's 103 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: there's so much confirmation bias and so much need to 104 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I adored my father and UM and felt 105 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: so incredibly connected to him and still do um even 106 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: though he's been gone for more than half of my life. 107 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: But the to ever think the thought maybe he's not 108 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: my biological father would have been impossible for me. And yet, 109 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: and yet there is a way in which I knew, 110 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: you know that that I that that I never thought it. 111 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,559 Speaker 1: But when I went back and read my early work 112 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 1: as a writer, it's in there. It's like a trail 113 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: of bread crumbs. It's like it's like the unconscious made 114 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: conscious um or the unconscious like on the page there 115 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: it is UM. So I actually have something that even 116 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: amounts to a kind of proof of the unsought known 117 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: in my own in my own life. But um, if 118 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: if someone had put you know, you've given me a 119 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: polygraph or whatever and said, you know, do you think 120 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: that your father isn't your biological father? What are you 121 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: talking about? What? What? What? What? What could possibly give 122 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 1: you that idea? I think that's why the fact that 123 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: the various companies put up a warning saying you may 124 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: discover unexpected relatives. I think that's why those warnings don't 125 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: take root. I mean, you just sort of explained it. 126 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: So therefully, it kind of all clicked into place in 127 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: my brain. There's there's yeah, of course, even like and 128 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: even as you're saying, even if you're someone who on 129 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: some less unconscious level could have questioned it, maybe questioned it, 130 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: you could, you've got a non unconscious level exactly. And 131 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: so a warning is not it's it's as good as 132 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: a puff of smoke. Will be back in a moment 133 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: with more family secrets. You know. There's also this this 134 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: part of it that has to do with sort of 135 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: basic human instincts or kind of like a primal way 136 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: of of of reacting to things. Which is that another 137 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: thing that I noticed in the you know, the other 138 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: side of this, not the seekers, but the people who 139 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: um were either the secret keepers or the donors, you know, 140 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: or the um the sort of world around the secret 141 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: keepers and the donors UM is that or or or 142 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: not donors. And it could be the same thing if 143 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: somebody had an affair that when when someone approaches a family, 144 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: that or a person who believes that they know the 145 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: outer perimeter of their family they you know, they have 146 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: three kids, or you know, they they know their story, 147 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: they know the story of their family. And suddenly there's 148 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: a person, an interloper, an outsider, sending an email or 149 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: sending a letter or making a phone call and saying, 150 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: I just don't really understand this, but I it seems 151 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: were related. It seems that you might be my half sibling, 152 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,239 Speaker 1: or you might be my biological parent. I don't understand. 153 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: The first um reaction, almost across the board is to 154 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: feel threatened. M what do you want for me? Yeah, 155 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: it often goes to somehow the financial you know, are 156 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: you looking for something you want? You want? Even people 157 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: who don't have two nickels to rub together are like, 158 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 1: you want my money? You know? Is that? Why? Is 159 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: that why you're contacting me? And it's a primitive I 160 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: think like, um, it probably has a kind of biological 161 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: route in we know, you know, we know where we think, 162 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 1: we know who are kin is and our and our 163 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: kin are usually people who are our kin biologically and 164 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: who we know, who we've raised or who we've you know, 165 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: existed with in a family dynamic. And then it upends 166 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: the idea of what that is. Yeah, it up ends 167 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: things that people consider sacred because it's you know, it's 168 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: it's disrupted to your narrative of your father if say 169 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: he conceived a child while he was married to your 170 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: mother UM or even before her UM, it would seem 171 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: to conflict. For some people, it would seem to conflict 172 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: with his loyalty to you. UM. Now, if you've grown 173 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: up with four siblings instead of three, you wouldn't question 174 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: his loyalty to you. But to have three siblings and 175 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: suddenly there's a fourth um. You know, in my book 176 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: I write about you know, people's reactions. There there's the 177 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: father who deletes his kid because he doesn't want a 178 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: relationship with his with his daughter. There's the the father 179 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: who sends a cease and desist letter to his daughter. UM. 180 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: Very often women doing the seeking I found UM and UM. 181 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: You know, there's a case of a woman who her 182 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: parents are no longer alive, but she reaches out to 183 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: her siblings on both sides. She's adopted and she finds 184 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: her her the identity of her genetic parents, her late parents, 185 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: and she reaches out to siblings on both sides, and 186 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: one side basically says, listen, our dad was not a 187 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: great guy and this is like just really painful and upsetting, 188 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, having a relationship with you reminds us of him, 189 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: and we don't. We don't have great memories of him, 190 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: so no, thank you. And on the other side, her 191 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: mother's siblings, her mother's children, they're basically like, wait a minute. 192 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: You know you're telling us that our mother before we 193 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: were born, had a baby, never told us about it, 194 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: gave that baby up at four days old by putting 195 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: that baby in a basket on a pastor's doorstep. No now, 196 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: because you know, for us to incorporate this story into 197 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: our memories of our late mother is to invite all 198 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: sorts of questions about her personality, her character, her values, 199 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: her the limits of her maternal love. No thank you, 200 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: and and and in that instance, um, you know, denial 201 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: can be a really powerful thing. And the sisters basically said, 202 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: like twenty three and me is wrong. Oh shut it 203 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: says we're half siblings on this relative chart. But you 204 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: know they have made a mistake. Um, And no amount 205 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: of fact finding or evidence bearing is going to alter 206 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: alter their perception, because that's it's it's not a question 207 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: of fact, it's a question of of emotion and honestly 208 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: sacred truth. Like narratives like you know you have a 209 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: you have an understanding of your family. You have an 210 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: understanding of who your mom was, and um, you know, 211 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: it's it's an interesting you know, writing The Lost Family, 212 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: I told a lot of stories of the seekers. These 213 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: are the people who are testing, These are the people 214 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: who are finding out about themselves. There's they have a 215 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: lot of agency, they have a lot of autonomy. They're there. 216 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: It's painful, but they're glad to know. And on the 217 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: other side are the stories of people who are not 218 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: talking because these are not these these are secrets, So 219 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: these are not stories that they're telling. So you know, 220 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: if I'm writing about a woman and she's reaching out 221 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: to her father and he deletes his kid, I'm basically 222 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: writing around the negative space of his response rather than 223 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: interviewing him. Um. And that's an interesting thing to think about. 224 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: I think as as we go into this new world, 225 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: is you know, what is it like for the people 226 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: on the other side, and and you know, what stories 227 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: do they have to tell, if any? And and is 228 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: there a way And honestly I don't know the answer 229 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: to this, but is there a way to make it 230 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: easier for everyone to um, to reconcile because I know 231 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: and and maybe that's not maybe that's not the right 232 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: question to ask because maybe, um, maybe that doesn't include 233 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: enough of the experiences of the people who are being 234 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: sought and don't want to be found. UM. But you know, 235 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: there can be a lot of trauma and pain on 236 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: the other side too. You know, if you were an 237 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: unwed mother so forced to give up your child, or 238 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: who endured a active coersion or rape. Um. You know, 239 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: these these experiences of being found can be incredibly painful. UM. 240 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: And I mean, it's a question without an answer, but 241 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: but it was one of the things that I really 242 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: thought was so um moving and difficult to write about, 243 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: was this idea that you take two people who are 244 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: closely genetically related, and they're at the very beginning of 245 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: what could be an intimate relationship in their meeting for 246 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: the first time, and their interests can seem to be 247 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: in conflict at exactly the moment when they most need 248 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: to not be in conflict. UM. And it doesn't you know, 249 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: it just doesn't always have a happy ending. Unfortunately. I 250 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: wonder how it might be possible for the people who 251 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: are sought, you know who who don't have agency in 252 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: that sense, they didn't ask to be sought. UM. They 253 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: in some cases hadn't known that there was a secret, 254 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: In other cases, have kept a secret all their lives. 255 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: In other cases haven't even thought of it as a secrets, 256 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: have just thought of it as something like, in the 257 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: case of donors, something that they did when they were 258 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: twenty two years old, um and never thought about again, 259 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: UM and ascribe no importance to And we're not hearing 260 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: the voices of those people. Why because it's a secret. 261 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: And so in in the same way that nothing has 262 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: been until very recently, nothing has been studied about the 263 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: implications psychologically and emotionally of um donor conception or you know, 264 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: sort of just secrecy when it comes to identity, uh, 265 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: kept from children. Now there hasn't. There haven't been long 266 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: term studies about any of that because no one was 267 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: talking because it was a secret. Now that's starting to 268 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: not be the case for a whole host of reasons. 269 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: And people are talking and and are making these discoveries 270 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: by the you know, thousands per week or making these 271 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: discover reas just because of the sheer numbers of people 272 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: who are still purchasing and taking you home DNA tests. 273 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: But the people on the other side of that, the 274 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 1: family is that that these people, and I include myself 275 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: in these people, you know, basically come crashing into like, Hi, 276 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: you know, you know, Hi, it's me. I think you're 277 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: my biological father. I know this is going to be shocking, 278 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: but you know that's that's I mean, I'm always taken 279 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: aback when people ask me, did you think long and 280 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: hard before you reached out to your biological father? And 281 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: the answer is I didn't think at all. I was 282 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: I was in survival mode. I was trying to put 283 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: together the pieces of me and the puzzle of me. 284 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: As as you were saying before, UM, I was completely 285 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: unmoored and and it really felt like a matter of 286 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: um of survival for me. And I think that that 287 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: is true for many people who make this discovery UM 288 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: and are shocked by it. But on the other side 289 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: of the at there is often an elderly person, a 290 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: person who has his own children, a person who gave 291 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: up a child for adoption and it's always been painful, 292 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: who never who maybe never told her own you know, 293 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: a husband of many years or or grown children. I mean, 294 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: there's so many ways in which our narratives can become upended. 295 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: And yet the question that I think is going to 296 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, preoccupy bioethicists and and and maybe really needs 297 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: to be asked more is what can we do to 298 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: um to make this UM the fact of this connection, 299 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: you know, the truth of this something that we can 300 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: all tolerate, at least enough to be kind to each other. So, 301 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: in the case of the story you were telling from 302 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: your book, the mother's the mother's family, her her children, 303 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: who say, that's just not that can't be the case. 304 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: We can't square that with our memory of our other. 305 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: She never would have done that. They're actually dealing with 306 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: the same level of traumatic discovery as the the person 307 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: in your book who's discovering who her biological her birth 308 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: parents really were. But no, but but they're not there. 309 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: But they're not able to make that empathic leap to 310 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: this is another human being and she's suffering. UM. Right, 311 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: it's it's my sacred truth and conflict with your sacred truth, 312 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: so yours, So yours has to be wrong. UM. And 313 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: I mean the terrible thing for the seeker in that situation, 314 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: whose name is Jackie UM the woman in my book 315 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: is that you know, and for many other people who 316 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: are doing the seeking, is you to it's such an 317 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: unfair thing for them to have to basically be the 318 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: messenger of their own existence, right. They don't blame the messenger. 319 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: That's that's the saying. Um, if I come knocking on 320 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: your door and I say, hey, my name is Libby, 321 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: and I exist and I'm your father's child, Um, you know, 322 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: I bear the brunt of all the um emotions that 323 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: you would bring to any messenger of such news if 324 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: it were not welcome. And yet it is me. It 325 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: is me, me vulnerable me. I mean in many ways, 326 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: the person is doing the seeking is is twice vulnerable 327 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: because they're they're looking for connection with their genetic ken. 328 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: And then they also have to be the one to 329 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: bring the news. And the person bringing the news of 330 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: something that could be disruptive to the person on the 331 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: other side is possibly going to catch some flat for that, 332 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: and then they feel very rejected and um. You know. 333 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: The the extent of the support for people in these 334 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: positions is basically Facebook groups. And there's all these Facebook 335 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: groups and you see over and over, you know, people 336 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: writing about I reached out to my my birth mother, 337 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: she doesn't want anything to do with me. I reached 338 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: out to my biological daddy doesn't want anything to do 339 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: with me. I reached out to my siblings and they've 340 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: they've rejected me, and um, you know, said this as 341 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: a hoax or whatever, and um, you know, it's it's heartbreaking, 342 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: it's it's heartbreaking this The stories really run the gamut. 343 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: There are some that are beautiful and you think, man 344 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: like that's that's a gorgeous story. That makes me cry, 345 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: And there are some that are so sad that they 346 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: make you cry for different reasons. Um, and uh, you 347 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: just you know, it's a bit of a roulette wheel. 348 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: You don't you don't know what you're gonna get, and 349 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: you can't control. You can't control the outcome. You can't 350 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: control how this person who on the other side, who's 351 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: who's genetically very related to you but is a stranger, 352 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: how they're going to respond to the news that you're 353 00:21:54,040 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: bringing them, will be right back. I want to ask 354 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: you one last question. I could I could talk to 355 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: you for we should we should have a three hour 356 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: podcast about this, because it's just you're saying such amazing things. 357 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: But um, you know, you touch, you touch in your 358 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: book on regulation and the Future, and you know the 359 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: question of there's still so many structures that are in 360 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: place that promote the possibility of keeping things a secret, 361 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: even as the impossibility of it being kept a secret 362 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: is upon us. I mean, I can't tell you how 363 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: many people will say to me, you know, and you 364 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: and I touched on this before, but we'll say to me, well, 365 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do one of those tests because 366 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: i don't want anybody finding me. And you know, I'm like, well, 367 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: good luck with that. Or you know, we are all 368 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: we are reaching a point where the the the web 369 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: of data, genetic data connecting us is going to be 370 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: you know, pretty much. You know, it's already not dependent 371 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: on whether somebody actually orders in one of these tests 372 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: and spits into the two. But do you have any 373 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: thoughts about sort of moving forward, what would be helpful 374 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: aside from the idea that you know, I think it's 375 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: very very interesting that the seekers and the sought um 376 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: both need their own kind of support and study and understanding. Yeah, 377 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: you know, I think I think, for one thing, it's 378 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: very clear that fertility banks can't promise anonymity to their 379 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: sperm donors anymore, UM, and I think that that needs 380 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: to be very um up front UM, it needs to 381 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: be very clear uh that UM anonymous sperm donor is 382 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: an oxymoron at this point, egg donors too. Yeah, and 383 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: you know that should just be something that's made clear 384 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: to someone as they're donating UM and UM. You know 385 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: that's that's pretty much a ship that has failed. UM. 386 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: You know, I do think there's a great need for 387 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: UM bioethical and psychological research. UM. I don't think there's 388 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: I don't think there's sort of putting any cat in 389 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: the bag, so to speak, like, I don't think that 390 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: there's UM. In my reporting and interviewing, I haven't heard 391 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: anyone say, well, you know, here's how we could regulate 392 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: DNA testing or here's how we should Now maybe I'm 393 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: just not in the conversations where that's being proposed, at 394 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: least not for the reasons that we're talking about. In 395 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: other words, nobody is talking about a method that would 396 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: UM permit this industry to exist and also at the 397 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: same time make it impossible to find unexpected genetic family 398 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: if you wanted that outcome, which it's not clear to me. 399 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: It's not clear to me that that you would. I mean, 400 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: given given the number of people who say that as 401 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: painful as this experience has been. You know, they were 402 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: glad to know UM. You know, it's not clear to 403 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: me that there would be UM. You know that that 404 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: that's where you'd want to go with it. But if 405 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: if you, if you could, you know, it's intrinsic to 406 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: the technology itself that you get a list of relatives 407 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: that we all share. You know, I share genetic overlapping 408 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: genetic segments with the people I'm related to, So there's 409 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,239 Speaker 1: there's no way to really take that out UM of 410 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: your results. So you know, and even if you did UM, 411 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: you know you would still have ethnicity estimates, which you know, 412 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: if you are the child of a man of Scottish 413 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: descent and you discover you are not at all Scottish, 414 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: you know that in itself is UM can be a 415 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: clue depending on how good a company's ethnicity estimates are. 416 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: So the question of regulation, I mean, I do see 417 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: a lot of conversations around regulation of DNA testing that 418 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: pertained issues like privacy and genetic discrimination. I have yet 419 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: to see a serious conversation that talks about UM. How 420 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: we treat the question of familial revelations and UM. I 421 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: guess I think that that's where this is eventually going, 422 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: is that I feel like a lot of the bioethical 423 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: conversations around genetic testing have centered on medical results, have 424 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: centered on privacy, have centered on genetic discrimination. They have 425 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: not really talked about how it impacts the family and 426 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: the individual on a personal level when they discover that, 427 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: for instance, that they are the product of a nonpaternity 428 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: event or a not parent expected event and MP and 429 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: I think that's where it has to go because I 430 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: think most the majority of people who have an experience 431 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: of DNA testing, their experience is not getting it from 432 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: their doctor. Their experience is not one of really interesting 433 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: or surprising or upsetting or revelatory health related results. You know, 434 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: the vast majority of the way that people are experiencing 435 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: DNA testing is through commercial tests. It's because they test 436 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: to find out whether they need to transform their later 437 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: hosing into a kilt as that ad goes, and then 438 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: they find out something that is like mind blowing, and 439 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: really there's almost, I think a disconnect between you know, 440 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: the academia that looks such not a testing in one way, 441 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: and the real life American consumer experience of it, which 442 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: is that if you're going to get a surprise. Is 443 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: this kind of surprise that you're getting, not um, not 444 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: that your data is being breached UM, or that your 445 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: insurer is declining to ensure you. But but this and 446 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 1: this is this is the stuff of people's most intimate lives. 447 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: This stuff matters so much so I just think that 448 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: we need to be having like a really serious national 449 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: conversation around this because there's only you know, we've got 450 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,479 Speaker 1: between thirty and thirty five million people in the database 451 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: at this point, the databasis of the major four companies, 452 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: and now you're seeing them pivot towards offering other products, 453 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: and that number is only going to go up. And 454 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: it's estimated it's somewhere around two of people UM taking 455 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: these tests do make a non paternity expected or non 456 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: parental event discovery. And that's how you do the math. 457 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: That's a hell of a lot of people. And then 458 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: if you I mean, yes for sure, and then if 459 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: you factor in the discovery of a half sibling that 460 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: you didn't know about, if you factor in late discovery adoptees, 461 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: if you factor in the people who's genetic ancestries were 462 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: hidden from them to attack them. UM, you're talking about 463 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: millions of people. And then if you look at the 464 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: way a single secret refracts across the family. If I 465 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: discover that I'm the product of the MPE, it impacts, 466 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: say there's three other people in my family that it impacts. 467 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: It also impacts the family of the man I now 468 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: discover them genetic related to related to. So let's say 469 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: that's another four people. They've got eight people impacted by 470 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: a single discovery. So you're talking millions of Americans, many 471 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: of whom never even tested impacted by this. It's just 472 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: it's um, it's a cultural transformation. It's an astonishing moment. 473 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: I think we're going to be talking about this four 474 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: decades to come. I completely agree, And I just keep 475 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: on having this image as you're as you're speaking of people, 476 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: These millions of people who are being impacted and affected UM, 477 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: whether directly or the or the familial or the ripple effect, 478 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: are like alone in their homes contending with there's no 479 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: formal support. There's no formal support, and and it is 480 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: it's a huge seismic, you know, psychological um and emotional 481 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: tsunami that's hitting people. And they don't they I mean, 482 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: I know they don't know where to go because they 483 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: come to me or they come to you. I mean, 484 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: just like the volumes of of mail or people coming 485 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: to my events back when events forcing um you know, 486 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: are just huge and it's and it's this desire, tremendous 487 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: desire to gather and to share and to um, to 488 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: to be with other people who are having this experience, 489 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: or to have people understand what the experience is, to 490 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: not feel sort of that other rejected alien feeling, the 491 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: lonely boat metaphor, you know, and and you know, this 492 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: will go a long way to making that lonely boat 493 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: metaphor be something that doesn't feel that way, that feels um, 494 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: you know, because what what we what we I think 495 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: generally as human beings want And one of the things 496 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: I've seen again and again from hosting this podcast is 497 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: that when we're able to really inhabit our truth and 498 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: see it and speak it and share it and not 499 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: feel shame about it and have that sense that there's 500 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: this wide array of people who are also going through 501 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: this thing, and there's there's help. There are people who 502 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: know how to how to talk about it how you know, 503 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: there are therapists who know how to um. You know, 504 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: find the language for it and be of support is 505 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: going to make a huge difference moving forward. Yeah. I mean, 506 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: I think if we were all the analogy that I 507 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,479 Speaker 1: just thought of as you were talking about, is, you know, 508 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: this coronavirus that we're going through and this kind of 509 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: imposed self isolation that we're all in. And if I 510 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: were doing this on my own, um, for some reason, 511 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: I would feel so much more profoundly alone. But I 512 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: know that my friends are doing it, my parents are 513 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: doing it, everyone and everyone I know is doing it, 514 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: and lots of people I don't know, And I feel 515 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: like a sense of solidarity because we're all alone together. Um. 516 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:00,959 Speaker 1: And I think that's why you'd seeing these you know, 517 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: Facebook groups crop up with you know, a hundred and 518 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: twenty thousand members, and that's just one of them, and 519 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: many of them have sixty thousand or twenty. And for 520 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: every specific type of DNA revelation that you can make, 521 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: there is a group out there. Um. And it's because 522 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: we need to know we're not alone, and we need 523 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: to normalize this experience. We really need to normalize this 524 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: experience so that nobody feels like this is their secret shame, 525 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: that this is their just their mess up family, right um, 526 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: or just their family that kept things from them. There 527 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: was a you know, there was there. There should be 528 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: a common language, there should be a common um. The 529 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: parallels of these experiences should be made clear for people 530 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: so that we all know we all are starting from 531 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: the same point. And if you've had this happened to you, 532 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: there are millions of other people out there to whom 533 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: this has happened, and we all have our family dysfunctions 534 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: and we can all sort of be together and that 535 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: and share those experiences us. Libby, that's a yeah, that's 536 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: that's that's perfect. That is such a that is such 537 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: a perfect, true and hopeful message to end this conversation on. 538 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: I've just absolutely loved talking to you about this and 539 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: you've thought so deeply about it, and yeah, just thank you, 540 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: thank you for your beautiful book. Well, thank you so much. 541 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,959 Speaker 1: This is so helpful, so wonderful to talk to you. 542 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I 543 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 544 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.