1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: A reprieve for nearly twelve thousand Afghans. An appeals court 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: stepped in to keep protections in place that have prevented 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: the Trump administration from deporting them. That's at least until Monday, 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 2: while both sides file legal briefs and the Fourth Circuit 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: Court of Appeals makes a decision. The Trump administration has 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: moved aggressively to remove Temporary protected status from Afghans and 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of people from six other countries as 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: part of the administration's effort to ramp up deportations. Joining 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 2: me is Samuel Siegel, Senior counselor at the Institute for 11 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 2: Constitutional Advocacy and Protection at Georgetown Law along with the 12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,279 Speaker 2: Washington Lawyers Committee. It's representing KASA, a non profit immigrant 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: advocacy group that sued the administration over the TPS revocation 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: for Afghans as well as for people from Cameroon. So 15 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 2: before the appeals court stepped in, the Trump administration had 16 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: planned to end Temporary Protected Status for Afghans. Tell us 17 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: about that. 18 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: So, the Trump administration had announced that it was ending 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: temporary Protective Status for Afghanistan. This week, it announced that 20 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: the conditions that initially led to the designation of that country, 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: the ongoing on conflict between Taliban and other insurgent groups, 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: and the extraordinary humanitarian conditions, were essentially no longer so 23 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: severe that it merited that designation. I guess to take 24 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: a step back and talk a little bit about TPS. 25 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: TPS is a status that the Secretary of Homeland Security 26 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: can designate a particular country for based on certain conditions 27 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: in those countries, particularly if the country's experiencing an ongoing 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: armed conflict, if there's a natural disaster, or if there's 29 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: another extraordinary condition in the country. If the Secretary makes 30 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: that conclusion, then he or she will designate the country 31 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: for TPS, which allows individuals from those countries to live 32 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: and work in this country for a particular set period 33 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: of time. Secretary of ma Orcus concluded that Afghanistan merited 34 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: that determination back in twenty twenty two and extended in 35 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three based on those conflicts and the conditions 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, and Secretary norm at least purported to say 37 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: that those conditions no longer existed now. Of course, our challenge. 38 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: One of our arguments is, in fact, that purported rationale 39 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: for the decision is not the one that's actually motivating 40 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: the actions here. Our argument is that this is a 41 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: preordained decision as part of the Trump administration's broader effort 42 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: to reduce the number of non white immigrants in this country, 43 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: and that's the basis on which we have asked the 44 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: Fourth Circuit to pause the GPS determination while the appeal 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: plays out. 46 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 2: Are you also arguing in this that what the Homeland 47 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: Security Secretary determined that you know, there are improvements in 48 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: security and economic situations, and that Afghan nationals can return. 49 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: Are you arguing that that's factually incorrect. 50 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: We're not making that specific argument, in part because of 51 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: some jurisdictional bars on what the courts are allowed to consider. 52 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: I think what we are as pointing to that the 53 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: conditions in the country are not good, and this further 54 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: supports the argument that the purported rationales that things have 55 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: improved are not the actual one. So it's that mismatch 56 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: between what's actually going on in Afghanistan and the actions 57 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: here that support our argument that even if things might 58 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: have improved a little bit, and that's not really the 59 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: reason that she's doing that. And I will just note 60 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: to this effect. You know, as part of the litigation here, 61 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: the administration had to produce an administrative record, which is 62 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: all the things that were in front of the Secretary 63 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: when she made her decision. And in November of twenty 64 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: twenty four, the US Customs and Immigration Service, which is 65 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: one of these that typically consults on these, concluded that 66 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: and I'm going to quote here quote Afghanistans civilian population 67 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: faces dire challenges, including a collapsing economy and healthcare system, 68 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: ubiquitous food and security exacerbated by drought, and widespread in 69 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: security due to decades of armed conflict and insurgency that 70 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: are entering a new danger phase. It also stated that 71 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: the Caliban authorities violently target citizens and foster continued armed 72 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: conflict and in your ethnic strife, and that it imposed 73 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: the vitrictions on education, employment in other areas on women 74 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: that foreclose their ability to meaningful participate in their country. 75 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: So again, we're not necessarily challenging the underlying factual conclusion 76 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: of what's going on here, but we're saying that these 77 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: kinds of statements from the federal government itself demonstrate that 78 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: there's really something else going on here. 79 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 2: So Maryland Federal Judge Theodore Will Judge Schwang allowed your 80 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 2: challenge to TPS to go forward, but he declined to 81 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: halt the administration's policy and preserve GPS protections. He found 82 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 2: that your group hadn't established sufficient likelihood of success on 83 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: the merits. Will you explain why he thought that you 84 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: wouldn't succeed on the merits here? 85 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: I think Judge Swang issued a well considered and balanced opinion. 86 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: He concluded, as you said, that our challenge can go ahead, 87 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: notwithstanding a couple of jurisdictional arguments that the defendants had raised. 88 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: And he also concluded, by pointing to things like the 89 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: US Custom and Immigration Service report that I just quoted, 90 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: that we had plausibly alleged that the action taken with 91 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: respect to Afghanistan is part of a broader policy to 92 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: reduce the number of non white immigrants in this country 93 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: and to effectively terminate almost all TPS designations. But then 94 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: he said, we had not yet introduced enough evidence to 95 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: sort of get over that likelihood of the success on 96 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: the merits hump, And so there's some delta there in 97 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: his mind that we hadn't yet demonstrated that we could 98 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: get there, and he said, look, I'm going to allow 99 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: this claim to go forward. You all can go into 100 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: discovery and try and identify additional evidence that will support 101 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: your claim here, but at this point I'm not going 102 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: to enter relief. So we respectfully disagree with that part 103 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: of Judge Chwang's ruling. We think that the allegations that 104 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: we made here and the evidence before the court was 105 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: sufficient to at a minimum temporarily pause the termination of 106 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: Afghanistan's PPS designation while we get that discovery while things 107 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: play out. And that's sort of the similar request that 108 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: we've made of the Fourth Circuit is just to postpone 109 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: this agency action while the appeal plays out. And one 110 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: thing I'll just note here, you know, Judge Chwang noted 111 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: that other courts have entered preliminary relief of some sort 112 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: in response to similar claims and similar amounts of evidence 113 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: in the past and the first administration and said, well, 114 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: we hadn't produced enough evidence here. I think it's important 115 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: to note that in those cases, the time between when 116 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: the end of the TPS designation was announced and when 117 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: it took effect was in most cases more than a year, 118 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: so those parties had much more time to produce the 119 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: kind of evidence that Jige Chwang is asking for. When 120 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: we're asking for just this sort of temporary relief while 121 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: things are playing out to the merits, we think that 122 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: first of all, the evidence that we have produced and 123 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: the things that we've pointed to, like the thing from 124 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: USCS that I pointed you to, like some other statements 125 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: from President Trump and Secretary Nome, demonstrate that this is 126 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: part of a preordained effort and demonstrate that we will 127 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: likely succeed on the merits when we get there, especially 128 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: as we get into discovery and produce more evidence in 129 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: support of our argument. 130 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: So the Fourth Circuit gave you an administrative stay for 131 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: a week. What's happening in that week? 132 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: Right so for right now, as you mentioned at the 133 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: out said, the Afghan PPS designation was set to expire 134 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: on Monday. By virtue of the Fourth Circuits decision, it 135 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: postpones that action for at least that week, which means 136 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: that Afghans who are facing the possibility of either having 137 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: to leave this country or exist in some legal limbo 138 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: and not be able to work or able to do 139 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: so for at least this week. In the interim, the 140 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: Court has asked us to brief our request, formally called 141 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: a postponement of agency action pending appeal. The federal government's 142 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: brief is due by eleven to fifty nine pm Eastern tonight, 143 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: and then we have twenty four hours to return around 144 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: a reply, and then we'll get a decision, presumably at 145 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: some point before next week Monday at eleven fifty nine pm. 146 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: Is this a losing battle in the end, because if 147 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: and when it reaches the Supreme Court, you're not likely 148 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 2: to find a receptive audience, at least among the conservative justices. 149 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: At the end of May, the Supreme Court allowed the 150 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 2: Trump administration to immediately strip the legal right to temporarily 151 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: live in war work in the US from as many 152 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: as half a million people from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela. 153 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: And that followed another order in May that allowed the 154 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 2: administration to end TPS protections for three hundred and fifty 155 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: thousand Venezuelans. So is the Supreme Court likely to end 156 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: TPS protections for Afghans as well? 157 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: So I don't want to make too many predictions about 158 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: exactly what the Supreme Court is going to do here. 159 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: I will say that we're very confident in our case, 160 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: and I'd just like to parse out those prior grants 161 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: of I think stays of lower course orders. So with 162 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: respect to the cubanations, Venezuelans and Nicaraguans, that was actually 163 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: with respect to a parole program that had been adopted 164 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: by the Biden administration, so it didn't involve temporary protected status, 165 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: and I think, you know, sort of trying to extrapolate 166 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: what the court said they are and apply it here, 167 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: I think is a very difficult thing. Similarly, with respect 168 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: to the Venezuelan program, that was respect to the temporary 169 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: Protected status, but in that case, the arguments that were 170 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: being made were different from the ones that are are 171 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: being made here. There, for example, the plaintiffs argued that 172 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: Secretary Mayorkists who had extended the TPS designation for Venezuela 173 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: for about eighteen months at the end of the Biden administration, 174 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: and then Secretary Nome had revoked that extension. The plaintiffs 175 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: there argued that Secretary Nome doesn't have that sort of authority. We, 176 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: by contrast, here are arguing that the reasons that we're 177 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: given were pretextual that this was a preordained effort. Also, 178 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: you know, I think there are extremely strong equities here, 179 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: as Judge Swang recognized in his decision. I mean with 180 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: Afghans in particular, we're talking about individuals who served our country. 181 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: One of the members of COSTA who's our client here 182 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: is a person named Bs who faced death threats due 183 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: to her work as an interpreter for international and United 184 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: States agencies, and she's fearful that if she's returned, she's 185 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: going to be targeted by the Taliban if she goes 186 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: back to Afghanistan. So again, I think it's always a 187 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: little bit of azus proposition of guessing what the Supreme 188 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: Court might do if we get there. But we think 189 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: that we've got a very strong case and that what 190 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: the Court did with respect to Venezuela and with respect 191 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: to the parole program doesn't shed all that much light 192 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: on what it might do here. 193 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: So can some of the Afghans that you're representing apply 194 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: for special immigrant visas or asylum? 195 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 1: Some may be able to, you know, but I think 196 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: it's important to emphasize here that TPS is, you know, 197 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: the bird in the hand. It guarantees them the ability 198 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: to be in this country. It guarantees them the ability 199 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: to work in this country. It guarantees them under the statute, 200 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: they cannot be put in detention on the basis of 201 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: their immigration status. Things that may not apply to everyone 202 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,719 Speaker 1: that is securing or in the process at least of 203 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: securing relief through other means. So there might be other 204 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: things that are available. Whether or not they will ever 205 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: be able to take advantage of those status, you know, 206 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: who knows, especially as this administration has assiduously worked to 207 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: make those kinds of relief further out of reach. 208 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 2: One of the things the White House Press Secretary said 209 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: was that temporary protected Status was never intended to be 210 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: a de facto asylum program and that it's not supposed 211 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: to be renewed over and over again. 212 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: And I think that's certainly right. I mean, it's baked 213 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: into the name temporary protected status, But there are specific 214 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: criteria that the Secretary is supposed to analyze in good 215 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: faith in determining whether or not to designate a country 216 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: in the first place and to extend, including for example, 217 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: whether or not there's an ongoing armed conflict there, and 218 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: when the Secretary offers reasons that are contrary to one 219 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: or offers reasons that are protextual. We just don't think 220 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: that that's the basis for being able to terminate a 221 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: TPS protection. If she makes a good faith assessment, then 222 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: this can be terminated. And TPS designations have been terminated 223 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: in the past. Just hasn't done what the statue requires 224 00:12:58,920 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: in this instance. 225 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining me. That's Samuel Siegel, Senior 226 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 2: counsel at the Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection at 227 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: Georgetown Law. 228 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 3: I will now go to voting because we have competing 229 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 3: markups and other committees and people have to leave here soon. 230 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: We'll go to Bovi's nomination. 231 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 4: The clerk will call the rule as the chairman, Mister chairman, 232 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 4: point of personal privilege. 233 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 5: Chairman, mister Chairman, according to Rule four of the Committee, 234 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 5: we have the right to continue to debate this nomination. 235 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,599 Speaker 5: I'm invoking Rule four of the Committee. We have the 236 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 5: right to debate this nomination. 237 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 3: Seconding Senator Booker's demand for a vote on his request 238 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: to hear from the wistle ble. 239 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 5: Mister Chairman, you should at least acknowledge my rule for 240 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 5: point of order. You're out of it. I don't understand this. 241 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 5: What are you afraid of about even debating this, putting 242 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 5: things on the record, hearing from every senator. Dear God, 243 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 5: that's what our obloations are. 244 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: It was an unusual scene in the Senate Judiciary Committee 245 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 2: today as Republican chair Chuck Grassley called the role over 246 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: the protests of Democratic Senator Cory Booker that Grassly was 247 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: violating the rules of the committee by cutting off debate 248 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: on the controversial nomination of Emil Beauveat, President Trump's former 249 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: criminal lawyer to a lifetime appointment on the Third Circuit 250 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: Court of Appeals. The Democratic senators stormed out of the 251 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: room as the Republicans unanimously voted to advance Beauvet's nomination 252 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: to the full Senate. Since January, Beauvet has been serving 253 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: as the principal Deputy Attorney General, overseeing dozens of firings 254 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: of prosecutors who worked on January sixth connected cases and 255 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: the dismissal of bribery charges against New York City Mayor 256 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: Eric Adams, which prompted the resignation of seven veteran prosecutors 257 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: in New York. Democrats had wanted to hear from a whistleblower, 258 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,479 Speaker 2: a former Justice Department lawyer who alleged that Beauvet encouraged 259 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: lawyers to defy court orders using foul language, something Beauvet 260 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 2: denied when asked by Democratic Senator Adam Schiff during his 261 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 2: confirmation hearings. 262 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: Senator, I have no recollection of saying anything of that 263 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: kind to the extent I you sure. 264 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 3: Recall, mister Bob, if you said or suggested during a 265 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 3: meeting with Justice Department lawyers, maybe they should consider telling 266 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: the court for you. It seems to me that would 267 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 3: be something you'd remember, unless that's the kind of thing 268 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 3: you say frequently. 269 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: Joining me is Dave Ahrenberg, former Palm Beach County State Attorney. 270 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 4: Dave. 271 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: The Democrats just wanted to hear from this whistleblower who's 272 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 2: backed up his allegations with text messages. Why are the 273 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: Republicans even refused to call him, leading to this showdown, 274 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: which is probably getting more attention than his testimony would have. 275 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 4: Elections have consequences, is what's going on. Donald Trump ran 276 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 4: to be everyone's retribue, the people who want to get 277 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 4: back at other people in government, to go after the 278 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 4: deep state, to fire people at the DOJ and Emil 279 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 4: Beauveat has been his henchmen. And now he's going to 280 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 4: get a lifetime appointment to a prominent appellate court. And 281 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 4: there's been some buzz that Trump ultimately wants him to 282 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 4: be on the Supreme Court. But first things first, shouldn't 283 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 4: be surprised at the process is not up to snuff, 284 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 4: because when it comes to doing favors for the Boss, 285 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 4: the Republicans will roll over. If you're going to bet 286 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 4: on Republicans to stand up to President Trump or to 287 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 4: follow the traditional rules and norms like they do, like 288 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 4: it's been done for hundreds of years in the Senate, 289 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,359 Speaker 4: you'll be waiting a long time and you'll be disappointed. 290 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 2: There's been a lot of opposition from different camps to Bovey. Yesterday, 291 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: more than nine hundred former Justice Department lawyers signed a 292 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: letter to the Judiciary Committee urging the Senate to reject 293 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: his nomination. Do you think this means that Republicans will 294 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 2: advance every judicial nomination that Trump makes. 295 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 4: Well, Boba is different than the others because Bobat was 296 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 4: Trump's personal lawyer, and he's Trump's personal pick. This is 297 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 4: not someone that was recommended to him by the Federalist 298 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 4: Society or some outside group. This is someone Trump wanted 299 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 4: because Trump believes he will give Trump loyalty and he resents, 300 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 4: meaning Trump resents the Federalist Society and the old school 301 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 4: Conservatives who promise him that these judges would be constitutionalists 302 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 4: and good judges. Trump interpreted that to me loyal to him. 303 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 4: And so that's why Trump says, all right, he doesn't 304 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 4: like Leonard Leo anymore of the Federal Society. He's just 305 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 4: going to nominate people who'll be loyal to him and 306 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 4: do his bidding and help him weaponize not just the DOJ, 307 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 4: but also the bench. 308 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 2: And this is the reason why judges, even Republican judges, 309 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: are not retiring recently, because you know, it was one 310 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 2: thing when Trump was appointing judges in the classic mode 311 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: of conservatives judges, but now he's appointing loyalists. 312 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 4: Well, because Trump's not a traditional Republican. Trump only became 313 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 4: a Republican later in life. He's he's a Trumpean, He's 314 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 4: a Maga. It's different. And you're seeing the split within 315 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 4: the Republican Party now based on Jeffrey Epstein when it 316 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 4: comes to Maga turning on Donald Trump. A MAGA is 317 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 4: not loyal to the Republican Party. If Trump tells MAGA 318 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 4: to start its own party, they will. And so he 319 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 4: doesn't care about judges who are there as strict constructionalists 320 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 4: or are going to be good for traditional Republican and 321 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 4: business interests. No, he wants people who are loyal to him, 322 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 4: and that's why he wants a Milpa van in the court. 323 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 4: And that's why he's slow in nominating judges this time around. 324 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 4: Remember in the first term he was like a house 325 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 4: on fire. He nominated a ton of judges early on, 326 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 4: with the help of Mitch McConnell. But now he doesn't 327 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 4: want those judges. He wants people who are loyal to him, 328 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 4: and that's why it's harder to find folks who are 329 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 4: qualified who meet that's standard. 330 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: Let's turn to Attorney General Pam Bondi, who's been in 331 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 2: the news a lot lately, and a case that I 332 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 2: find startling stunning. There's a plastic surgeon who is accused 333 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 2: of conspiracy to defraud the government, among other things, selling 334 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 2: about nineteen hundred fake COVID vaccination cards for nearly ninety 335 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 2: seven thousand dollars, destroying more than twenty eight thousand dollars 336 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: of government providing COVID vaccines. So he's on trial in Utah. 337 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 2: The prosecution is presenting its witnesses. Five days into the 338 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 2: prosecution's case, Bondi decides to drop the case. So she 339 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 2: orders the prosecutors to drop the case and dismiss the charges. 340 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of an instance where an attorney 341 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 2: general in mid trial dismissed charges. 342 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 4: I can't think of one instance other than this. This 343 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 4: was a cause celeb on the far right, the MAGA world. 344 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 4: Marjorie Taylor Green was lobbing for him, and someone got 345 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 4: the attorney general's a year and made her believe this 346 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 4: was the political prosecution, that this guy is targeted because 347 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 4: he was helping parents have a choice of whether or 348 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: not to vaccinate their kids. Instead he was inject named 349 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:21,479 Speaker 4: with saline. He was deceiving authorities and helping parents in 350 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 4: that way who wanted to buck the rules at the time. 351 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 4: So on the far right, this Sky is seen as 352 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 4: a hero. And since he is being prosecuted, not others 353 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 4: like this, I don't think there's any other case we 354 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 4: know of like this that was used as sac He's 355 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 4: being singled out even though others did the same thing. 356 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 4: That's questionable, but being singled out and with all the 357 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 4: pressure from the Marjorie Taylor Greens of the world, especially 358 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 4: when you have everything going on, when Marjorie Tayler Green 359 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 4: and others in the MAGA world are turning on the 360 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 4: Trump a ministration because of Epstein, well, this was perhaps 361 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 4: the right time to do them a solid. 362 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: What's also stunning is that Bondie credited Congressman Marjorie Taylor 363 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 2: Green and Senator Mike Lee on social media. So the 364 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: Attorney General giving credit to political leaders for dropping a case. 365 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 2: Does this show that the Justice Department is not maintaining 366 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: a division between politics and its prosecutorial decisions. 367 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 4: Remember what I said at the beginning of this interview, 368 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 4: elections have consequences. The voters chose a person who said 369 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 4: that I will be a retribution, and they made it 370 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 4: clear that he was going to turn the dj into 371 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 4: an agency that did his will, his bidding. And so 372 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 4: we shouldn't be surprised now that if he wants to 373 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 4: help a political supporter, especially one that's starting to turn 374 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 4: on him because of Epstein, that he's going to do it, 375 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 4: and ultimately he makes the decisions, and it shouldn't be 376 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 4: a surprise. This is what they campaigned on. Whenever someone 377 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 4: says we're going to stop the weaponization of the Department 378 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 4: of Justice, generally that means we're going to weaponize the 379 00:21:58,880 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 4: Department of Justice. 380 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 2: By the way, that case, the Utah surgeon case, had 381 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: gone through the weaponization group and passed the weaponization group. 382 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 4: Right, They had this whole group as designed to root 383 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 4: out cases motivated by politics, and that group, that committee 384 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 4: said now this is okay, this is legit, and then 385 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 4: the decision was made to undo this case. Anyway, So 386 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 4: this was the type of thing that Trump ran on, 387 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 4: and it wasn't something that was out of totally out 388 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 4: of the ordinary. I mean, we have seen presidents be 389 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 4: very close to their attorney's general in the past. JFK 390 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 4: appoint his brother to be attorney general. Barack Obama had 391 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 4: his so called wingman, Eric Holder, is his attorney general. 392 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 4: It happens, but we haven't seen are decisions that are 393 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 4: at least obviously made because of politics. Now does it 394 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 4: happen anyways, Yes, But this is just like saying the 395 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 4: quiet part out loud. 396 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 2: By the way, the Defense attorney said that she thought 397 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 2: that the prosecutors were joking when they called her on 398 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 2: Saturday to say we're dropping the charges in the middle 399 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: of trials. So that shows how unusually is you mentioned 400 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 2: the Epstein files, and Bondi is coming under fire. She's 401 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 2: facing increasing anger from the GOP bass and calls for 402 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: her resignation over her handling of the Epstein files. Why 403 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: do you think she went out upfront and said I 404 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: have the list. It's on my desk. 405 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 4: Well, to be fair, June, she didn't say I have 406 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 4: the list. It was asked of her on Fox News, 407 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 4: said that there's a list, right, and then she said 408 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 4: I have it on my desk. So the implication is 409 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 4: it's the list. But she then correct herself afterwards to 410 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 4: say that I meant I had his file on my desk, 411 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 4: And actually I believe that's what she meant. But at 412 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 4: the time, when you're on TV and you get caught 413 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 4: up in the moment with Fox News, you want to 414 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 4: please people, and people in the far right were clamoring 415 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 4: for the list, and you say something that was inexact, 416 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 4: and it's come back to Bier. But in the end, 417 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 4: there is no list. I mean, I was a state 418 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 4: attorney in Palm Beach County, six years after the Epstein 419 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 4: stuff was over. And it's clear based on everyone I've 420 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 4: spoken to and everything I've read outside the office, I 421 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 4: had no access to any inside information the grand jury 422 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 4: reports that were all kept by the clerk, not by 423 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 4: our office, but talking to prosecutors and reading about journalists. 424 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 4: If there is no list and Epstein did kill himself, 425 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 4: now that's different than the question of are the third 426 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 4: parties involved who should be prosecuted? Well, that's a different question, 427 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 4: and the DJ is saying no, We're going to end 428 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 4: it here. And I have thoughts about that. But in 429 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 4: the end, I think Bonnie was telling the truth that 430 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 4: there is no list and he did kill himself. 431 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 2: Coming up next, most Americans think the government is lying 432 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: about the Epstein files. This is Bloomberg. 433 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law. 434 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 5: With June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 435 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 2: It's hard to put the genie back in the bottle. 436 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,479 Speaker 2: While campaigning last year, President Donald Trump promised to release 437 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 2: files relating to Jeffrey Epstein, but this month, the Justice 438 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: Department said that Epstein did not maintain a client list 439 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: and said there was no additional information on the case 440 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: to release that sparked a furious reaction from many of 441 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: Trump's supporters and repeated calls to release the files. Trump 442 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: has attempted to tamp down the uproar with explanations like this. 443 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: It's all been a big hoax. 444 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 2: It's perpetrated by the Democrats, and some stupid Republicans and 445 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: foolish Republicans fall into. 446 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 3: The net, and so they try and do the Democrats work. 447 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 2: But pressure continues to build on the Trump administration to 448 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: release the Epstein files, and according to a new Reuter 449 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: Zipsis poll, about sixty nine percent of Americans think the 450 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: federal government is hiding details about Epstein's clients. That compares 451 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: to just six percent who believed the government. I've been 452 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: talking to Dave Ahrenberg, former Palm Beach County State Attorney. 453 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: Dave not releasing the files seems to be feeding into 454 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: the conspiracy theories that there's something there to hide, and 455 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: it doesn't look like it's going to die down, so 456 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 2: why not just release the files. 457 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 4: That's where they aired. They really did try to placate 458 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 4: the conspiracy theorists in their base, of which there are many. 459 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 4: In fact, Dan Bongino and Cash Bottel came to power 460 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,239 Speaker 4: based on conspiracy theories. In fact, Donald Trump came to 461 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 4: power based on conspiracy theories. He ran on Barack Obama 462 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 4: being from Kenya. He then said the twenty twenty election 463 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 4: was stolen. Both of them were false, both conspiracy theories, 464 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 4: and then the third one on Jeffrey Epstein, and that 465 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 4: one is coming back to bite them because the alligator 466 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 4: is always hungry, and you can try to feed it, 467 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 4: eventually it's going to bite your face off. And that's 468 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 4: what they've learned. They over promised, and now the MAGA 469 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 4: base is churning on them and the facts are what 470 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 4: they are. As far as why aren't they releasing the 471 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 4: whole file, well, a few reasons. It is standard practice. 472 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 4: It is the norm that you don't release the names 473 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 4: of individuals unless you're going to charge them within the DOJ. 474 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 4: Of course, at the same time, this is the same 475 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 4: VOJ and Trump administration that has been breaking norms, so 476 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 4: this is the one norm they're adhering to. But I 477 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 4: do think the real reason is that President Trump's name 478 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 4: is caught up and it's not as doing anything illegal 479 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 4: or involved with human trafficking or illicit sex rings, but 480 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 4: just by being friends with this person of which a 481 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 4: lot of people were on Palm Beach. I don't think 482 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 4: he wants and his people don't want his name to 483 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 4: be out there and wants the story to end. But 484 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 4: by blocking the release of all the documents, it keeps 485 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 4: it going. 486 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: We've been talking about politically motivated dismissals of cases. Let's 487 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 2: turn to politically motivated pross secutions of cases. Trump on 488 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 2: Truth Social has accused Senator Adam Schiff of mortgage fraud 489 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: and demanded that he'd be brought to justice. Schiff has 490 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: flatly denied that he falsely designated his Maryland home as 491 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 2: his primary residence. The request for the information on Schiff 492 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 2: apparently came from the fahfa's inspector General. It's also similar 493 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: to the allegations that have been made against New York 494 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: State Attorney General Letitia James. Does this chain of events 495 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 2: seem unusual or troubling. 496 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 4: Well, it's easy to send something to the FBI and 497 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 4: just say look at this wrongdoing, especially if it involves 498 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 4: an elected official. So we've seen this before about investigations 499 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: of that are politically motivated. The Russia probe of the investigators, 500 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 4: the probe that John Durham and Bill Barr conducted to 501 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 4: investigate the investigators that eventually blew up in their face 502 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 4: because they are built in safeguards, built in guardrails for 503 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 4: out of control prosecutors. If you go ahead and you 504 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 4: start charging people without evidence, that case, first off should 505 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 4: get thrown out by the grand jury. Will not be 506 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 4: indicted by the grand jury. And if it does, if 507 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 4: it meets that standard of evidence, which is relatively low, 508 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 4: then a judge could throw it out. And then if 509 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 4: it does ever get to a jury, the jury can 510 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 4: do what it did in a John Durham cases and 511 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 4: quickly acquit and then the prosecutor's egg all over his 512 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 4: or her face. So that's a cautionary tale. I've always 513 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 4: said that Pam Bondi is a twenty year prosecutor. She 514 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 4: will not cross the red line and Trump up to 515 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 4: use a term of fake evidence to bring bogus charges 516 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 4: against Trump's political enemies like Matt Gates would have. That's 517 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 4: why Matt Gates was the first Attorney general appointed by 518 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 4: Donald Trump before he had to back out because Gates 519 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 4: promised to blow the place up. Bondy knows better and 520 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 4: she's not going to do that and cross the red line. 521 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,719 Speaker 4: And if that happens, have me on and I'll eat 522 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 4: some crow. 523 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: I will remember that, Dave. There seems to be a 524 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 2: continuing per urged by Bondie of Justice Department lawyers. Federal 525 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: prosecutor Maureen Comy, who worked on the criminal case of 526 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein and Glaine Maxwell, was the prosecutor in the 527 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: Sean Diddy Comb's case, was fired yesterday. Comy is also 528 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: the daughter of former FBI Director James Comy. It seems 529 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 2: too coincidental. 530 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 4: Oh, it's not. If you have the last name of 531 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 4: Komy and you work for this administration, you should prepare 532 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 4: the boxes to remove the stuff from your desk. Same 533 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 4: thing if you have the last name of Fauci or 534 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 4: anyone else on Trump's target list. He hates Komy. He 535 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 4: wants Comy prosecuted. So isis gonna allow his daughter to 536 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 4: continue in her prominent role at the SDNY, especially after 537 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 4: they lost the prominent case and Diddy. Now I know 538 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 4: they got the lesser charges, but they lost, so yeah, 539 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 4: so this was the time for them to do it. 540 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 4: Do I agree with it? Do I like it? 541 00:30:59,440 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 5: No? 542 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,959 Speaker 4: No, I think prosecutor should be judged based on their 543 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 4: work product, not based on their last name. But again, 544 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 4: this is the kind of stuff Trump campaigned on being 545 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 4: your retribution. 546 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 2: I mean, would a prosecutor be fired after losing one 547 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: of the most high profile trials since probably the most 548 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 2: high profile trial since Trump was elected. 549 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 5: No? 550 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 4: Did Chris Darden and Marshall Clark get fired because they 551 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 4: lost the O. J. Simpson case. No, that doesn't happen 552 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 4: unless you're just incompetent at your job, and none of 553 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 4: those people were incompetent. So the only one fired is 554 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 4: the one who has the last name Comy. 555 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: In another Justice Department move that's already drawing fire from 556 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:47,959 Speaker 2: some California lawmakers, including Nancy Pelosi. Attorney General Pam Bondi 557 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: this morning went on a tour of Alcatraz because President 558 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: Trump is thinking of turning it back into a prison now. 559 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: Alcatraz is currently a profit maker for the federal government. 560 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: As a tourist attraction. It earns about sixty million dollars 561 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 2: a year. I didn't think they were really serious about this, 562 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: but maybe they are. Why. 563 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 4: It's about the show. Trump loves performative art, and this 564 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 4: is right up his alli. Remember the movie Escape from Alcatraz, 565 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 4: and it's a symbol of being a great movie, right, Clinticewood. 566 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 4: So Alcatraz is a symbol, it's the rock. It's just 567 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 4: a symbol of a government that was probably a little 568 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 4: too obsessed with visuals being tough on crime, when in 569 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 4: reality it wasn't all that. And it's now a tourist site. Well, 570 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 4: this is right up Trump's sally, all these other images 571 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 4: of him being tough on crime, telling police to hit 572 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 4: the suspect on the way and the car let him 573 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 4: bump the head on the car door on the way in. 574 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 4: If that isn't enough, well why not have the symbol 575 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 4: of Alcatraz no matter what the costs. After all, our 576 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 4: government can just print money, right, And it's not like 577 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 4: we're in massive deficits, are we. 578 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: The cost of refurbishing the island and building a new 579 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 2: prison has been put at a quarter of a billion 580 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: dollars at a minimum. Let's turn to the other Alcatraz Alligator. 581 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: Alcatraz controversial, to say the least, immigration detention facility in 582 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: your neck of the woods in Florida. The detainees are 583 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 2: suing the Trump administration alleging inhumane conditions and unlawful confinement. 584 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's going to take time to wind through the courts. 585 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 4: Maybe we'll get an injunction and then the Supreme Court 586 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 4: has curtailed injunctions, but they could get one for this facility. 587 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 4: And from what I hear, they're right, it's not something 588 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 4: that should be there that This is again about show, 589 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 4: not the go. This is about imagery. They're selling swag 590 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 4: for Alligator Aclatraz swag. Oh yeah, it's on the Republican 591 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 4: Party's website. Governor Santis is pushing it. This is performative 592 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 4: art and it plays into exactly Trump's strength, which is 593 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 4: immigration and criminal mindagrants, even though the people they are 594 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 4: largely are not criminals. There are people who may have 595 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 4: overstayed their visas, but they didn't commit crimes in the 596 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 4: United States, at least not most of them were hearing. 597 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 4: The conditions are reportedly inhumane. The conditions may not even 598 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 4: survive a low level tropical storm, of which unfortunately Florida 599 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 4: gets this time of year. It's already flooding even before 600 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 4: there's ever been a tropical storm in the area. So 601 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 4: is this something that we should be doing? No, No, Again, 602 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 4: though it is about a symbol it's the same reason 603 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 4: why they're trying to pay two hundred and fifty million 604 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 4: dollars to restore the original Alcatraz. But at some point 605 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 4: you got to believe that voters, they just say, what 606 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 4: about substance? Is this kind of country we are where 607 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 4: it's all about symbolism, It's about showing people how overly 608 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 4: tough and harsh and punitive we are. Like maybe at 609 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,479 Speaker 4: some point we can just go back to our roots 610 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 4: and just try to be that shining city on the hill. 611 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 2: A state representative, Angie Nicks, and a Democratics representative in Florida, 612 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 2: is filing a separate suit against DeSantis challenging the legality 613 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 2: of the site's construction on protected land. Is that protected 614 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 2: land where it is? 615 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 4: Native Americans say it is? But I mean again, these 616 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 4: lawsuits will take some time. And is she filing in 617 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 4: state court or federal court? 618 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 2: State court? 619 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 4: If it's in state court, the appellate judges were all 620 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 4: appointed by Republicans and many of them are appointed by 621 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 4: DeSantis and the Supreme Court of Florida six out of 622 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 4: seven conservative majority. And so if it's a state court lawsuit, 623 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 4: that ain't going anywhere. If it's a federal lawsuit. Perhaps 624 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 4: they could get an injunction, but this is going to 625 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 4: wind its way through the courts, and the win here 626 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 4: is not in keeping people there. That's not really the 627 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 4: concern of DeSantis and Trump. They just want the imagery, 628 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 4: and they like the imagery of having Democrats fight this 629 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,800 Speaker 4: because the Democrats are fighting this on the Republicans' terrain. 630 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 4: It's much better for them to go to war on 631 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 4: this than to go to war on Epstein or on tariffs, 632 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 4: all notoriously unpopular. 633 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 2: It's hard to get away from the Epstein files though. 634 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Dave. That's Dave Ehrenberg, former Palm Beach 635 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 2: County State Attorney. And that's it for this edition of 636 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 2: the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the 637 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 2: latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can 638 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 2: find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot 639 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 2: Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast, Slash Law, and remember to 640 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 2: tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten 641 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 2: pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening 642 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 2: to Bloomberg