Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. In many states, it's
Speaker 1: this sort of same state that is doing things like
Speaker 1: not wanting to take the child care money, not having
Speaker 1: a paid leave conversation, that same state is rolling back
Speaker 1: reproductive healthcare. There's an opportunity to join together and fight
Speaker 1: for a different future. And the strategy of sort of
Speaker 1: making people feel powerless is how nothing gets done. We
Speaker 1: are super powerful, That's so right. Yes, I do feel
Speaker 1: fired up. I'm pissed and powerful and powerful. Please note
Speaker 1: that at the time of our recording back in February,
Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about the President's Build Back
Speaker 1: Better Bill. The framework of this bill included things like
Speaker 1: child care, universal preschool, and paid family leave. A number
Speaker 1: of things have changed since then, and the bill is
Speaker 1: currently stalled. We're keeping an ear to the ground for
Speaker 1: what's next for legislation at this time. Hi everybody, and
Speaker 1: welcome back to Katie's Crib. Today. I have so many questions,
Speaker 1: and I'm so exhausted and overwhelmed. There's so much change
Speaker 1: and advocacy going around, and I know we all have fatigue,
Speaker 1: but I was like we gotta get Fatima goss Graves
Speaker 1: on here to lay it out in Layman's terms of
Speaker 1: how our listeners and myself can better advocate for women,
Speaker 1: pregnant women, and families in the workforce. Fatima gos Graves
Speaker 1: is a nationally recognized leader in the fight for gender
Speaker 1: justice and an expert in law, policy and culture change.
Speaker 1: She is President and CEO of the National Women's Law Center,
Speaker 1: president of the National Women's Law Center Action Fund, and
Speaker 1: a co founder of the Times Up Legal Defense Fund.
Speaker 1: Fatima has a distinguished track record working across a broad
Speaker 1: set of issues central to the lives of women and girls,
Speaker 1: and health and reproductive rights and workplace justice. She's appeared
Speaker 1: as a legal and social commentator on CBS, MSNBC, BBC, CNN, BBS,
Speaker 1: and NBR, and has been published and quoted in numerous outlets.
Speaker 1: A teamer resides in my favorite city in the country, Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. Fatima, thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 1: Katie's cribt. You have worked hard and you are working
Speaker 1: hard to be where you are. Tell me how how
Speaker 1: did you get into public policy? So I should begin
Speaker 1: that I think one of the reasons I was able
Speaker 1: to stay at the National Women's Low Center for a
Speaker 1: long time, and I've been here for over a decade
Speaker 1: and a bunch of different roles. Is because the Law
Speaker 1: Center values caregivers and always has so I was able
Speaker 1: to have two babies and do work I felt passionate
Speaker 1: and about, and take time for leave and tap in
Speaker 1: and out in various ways. In the truth of the
Speaker 1: matter is, you can't do that everywhere in this country.
Speaker 1: And so that made a difference for me in my
Speaker 1: career that the Law Center invested in me early and
Speaker 1: I was able to to stay connected to work right.
Speaker 1: But you know, I sort of came up at a
Speaker 1: time with a really deep understanding of gender and racial justice.
Speaker 1: And I feel really really lucky to be able to
Speaker 1: do this work any time, but especially in times of crisis.
Speaker 1: And so when I think about the pandemic. In the
Speaker 1: early days, we gathered as a staff and talked about
Speaker 1: what we knew people were facing and what we expected
Speaker 1: to come and many folks on staff were experiencing those
Speaker 1: same things, and so the issues are personal for us,
Speaker 1: and it's why we're invested, and it's why we stay
Speaker 1: in the work. It's why I stay in the work
Speaker 1: at a picture of what the pandemic has done for
Speaker 1: women in the workforce and a picture of where we
Speaker 1: are currently at. You know, the pandemic revealed so many
Speaker 1: problems that didn't just begin with the pandemic, but it
Speaker 1: really show a bright light on it. It highlighted the fact,
Speaker 1: especially for women of color, that they were disproportionately in
Speaker 1: jobs that we call frontline and essential. But these are
Speaker 1: also jobs that were basically low age and low paying jobs,
Speaker 1: and that mattered a lot in the pandemic when a
Speaker 1: lot of people lost those jobs and when women didn't
Speaker 1: have a lot of savings or safety net to fall
Speaker 1: back on. The pandemic also highlighted the invisible work of
Speaker 1: care that mostly women do, both care in their homes,
Speaker 1: caring for your loved ones, your children, your elders, but
Speaker 1: also that women and mostly women of color, disproportionately care
Speaker 1: workers and are sisters. Um just broke. And the pandemic
Speaker 1: of course highlighted how fragile our health infrastructure is and was,
Speaker 1: And what it meant is that I especially for women
Speaker 1: of color, they were disproportionately ill and the workers, the
Speaker 1: frontline healthcare workers were also a lot of women. So
Speaker 1: you had this crashing down of care and health and
Speaker 1: income security and frontline jobs all at once. And I
Speaker 1: think it's what made up the sort of you know,
Speaker 1: with the New York Times called the Primal Scream, and
Speaker 1: what your neighbors and friends may have just been showing
Speaker 1: in their eyes and ears, that look you see on
Speaker 1: people's faces, that look of I'm exhausted, I'm tired. I
Speaker 1: can't believe this is happening. These things didn't begin with
Speaker 1: the pandemic. They just came crashing down altogether at once.
Speaker 1: I have goose bumps. I know so many women and
Speaker 1: women of all different socio economic classes colors who have
Speaker 1: literally been on the brink of losing it multiple times.
Speaker 1: They are not able to work, take care of their children,
Speaker 1: homeschool disruptions with COVID. I mean, it has been absolutely wild.
Speaker 1: So can you tell us about the specific policy and
Speaker 1: advocacy work that you've participated in regard to paid leave. So,
Speaker 1: even before the pandemic, we were supporting what was called
Speaker 1: the Family Act, which would have been the first national
Speaker 1: paid leave program. It's sort of surprises a lot of
Speaker 1: people that that's not already the policy in this country.
Speaker 1: Until you need paid leave and can't access it. What
Speaker 1: happened during the pandemic is we actually ended up having
Speaker 1: an experiment. He had the first national paid leave program
Speaker 1: as a part of the COVID relief package. You would
Speaker 1: have thought that that would have told us we should
Speaker 1: never go backwards again, that we should never not have
Speaker 1: a situation like this. Unfortunately, we didn't all equally learn
Speaker 1: this lesson, and we have been fighting for paid leave
Speaker 1: together with an investment in our care infrastructure more broadly
Speaker 1: in Congress over this last two years, and it feels
Speaker 1: on some days that we were very far away and
Speaker 1: some days that we're on the cusp of actually getting
Speaker 1: something that would be transformative, not just for today but
Speaker 1: for tomorrow. In regard to that tell us about the
Speaker 1: Build Back Better Act in Layman's terms. We've talked about
Speaker 1: it on this podcast before, but for anyone who's just
Speaker 1: tuning in, can you explain it? So I'm going to
Speaker 1: begin by saying that I am an internal oftenness, So
Speaker 1: you may read in the paper certain things that I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say exactly why I haven't given up on on
Speaker 1: build that Better, but but on specifically the sort of
Speaker 1: investment in the care economy that we need. And it
Speaker 1: includes in historic investment in childcare so that workers can
Speaker 1: actually make more and families can pay less with would
Speaker 1: it also increase the supply of childcare. Unfortunately in the pandemic,
Speaker 1: we lost a lot of child care workers and they
Speaker 1: have some of them gotten jobs doing other things that
Speaker 1: pay more, So we have a math problem. Similarly, the
Speaker 1: bill would have a historic investment in home care services
Speaker 1: for those who are elderly and with disabilities, a population
Speaker 1: that is growing because of the pandemic. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's one of these things where we can't just ignore
Speaker 1: a growing population that needs home care. But we kind
Speaker 1: of have been delaying and delaying addressing this. And it
Speaker 1: also included an investment in in paid lead in allowing
Speaker 1: for a federal paid lead program. It does other things
Speaker 1: that has investments in housing, has um investingments in climate
Speaker 1: and a number of organizations around the country have been
Speaker 1: fighting for this, have been fighting for us to actually
Speaker 1: do the work of not just recover in terms of
Speaker 1: our economy, but invest in the future and and and
Speaker 1: put care at the center of it. Like that how
Speaker 1: transformative to to do that? UM, And so where are
Speaker 1: we on February pretty pretty too. And in any day,
Speaker 1: you know, there's always some sort of political have take
Speaker 1: that's trying to guess where we are. And the truth
Speaker 1: is people still want this investment. If you ask and
Speaker 1: pull on the issue, people say, yes, I need you
Speaker 1: to invest in child care now actually and maybe yesterday,
Speaker 1: Yes I need you to to actually do something to
Speaker 1: make sure home care workers get a worrage. There. They
Speaker 1: are talking about this in a very serious way, and
Speaker 1: negotiations are still happening. I'm not sure in the end
Speaker 1: what will look like. I mean, some of this is
Speaker 1: the business of doing business on in in DC, on
Speaker 1: Capitol Hill. And you know, I don't think people need
Speaker 1: to be invested in the sausage making. They need to
Speaker 1: be invested in actually getting something done. I think most
Speaker 1: people in this country kind of don't care what the
Speaker 1: bill is called. They don't care if one member of
Speaker 1: Congress is mad or another, or you know, how they
Speaker 1: get it done. They just want them to get it done.
Speaker 1: And I think consistently hearing that message from people will matter.
Speaker 1: You posted a statement on the National Women's los Center
Speaker 1: page which everyone listening. If you have not done deep
Speaker 1: dives down this page and and just really looked into
Speaker 1: the National Women's Law Center website. It's so valuable. I
Speaker 1: read that the Build Back Better Act is also our
Speaker 1: last best hope to prevent the collapse of our child
Speaker 1: care system and sure millions more women are not pushed
Speaker 1: out of the labor force, prevent increased health inequity, and
Speaker 1: stop the descent of millions of children into poverty with
Speaker 1: the pending lapse of the child tax credit. Why is
Speaker 1: America so far behind? Why? Well, so we tend to
Speaker 1: focus on the thing, right, and I'm so dramatic, right,
Speaker 1: but I actually think we should be like, how did
Speaker 1: we get here? What we're rethinking? So, Built Back Better,
Speaker 1: I think is the bill we always should have had. Right,
Speaker 1: This sort of investment in childcare is the investment we
Speaker 1: always should have had because of the child tax Credit.
Speaker 1: Even during a pandemic and a reception we may which
Speaker 1: did not have people falling more into deep poverty. And
Speaker 1: that was an on purpose policy solution. We made a
Speaker 1: choice that we were going to have fewer people going
Speaker 1: into deep heart poverty in a recession. Well done, well done,
Speaker 1: good job, good job. What can we learn from that
Speaker 1: that it makes a difference in a recession for people
Speaker 1: to have income. I sort of feel like those are
Speaker 1: basic lessons, but there's always the worry that we won't
Speaker 1: hold on to them. And the lesson I worried people
Speaker 1: will forget is what has happened in these last two
Speaker 1: years with women leaving the workforce. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of anecdotal stories that people know, so they're surprised and
Speaker 1: not surprised to know that over two million women left
Speaker 1: during the pandemic. And there were periods where there were
Speaker 1: spikes that surprised no mother anywhere, right back to school
Speaker 1: spike every year, a macron when you saw people getting
Speaker 1: sick and meaning to take un hate leave. That didn't
Speaker 1: really surprise anyone who was looking around and thinking about
Speaker 1: what that looks like in practice. And so I actually
Speaker 1: think the opportunity to deliver not just for the folks
Speaker 1: who suffered so much in this period, but to learn
Speaker 1: the lesson and invests differently for the future who decided
Speaker 1: on the three months. I have very few friends who
Speaker 1: work at amazing companies that provide I'm not kidding you,
Speaker 1: one year paid maternity leave MHM. When they tell people
Speaker 1: in the room that they're getting that people are shocked
Speaker 1: and um so jealous and it's such a blessing. I
Speaker 1: see why it works. I mean caretakers, they get time
Speaker 1: with the baby. If they have they're having trouble adjusting
Speaker 1: anything like that, they are okay, and when they come
Speaker 1: back it's unreal. I mean they're like in such a
Speaker 1: good place. There are other countries that this is normal.
Speaker 1: Why is it not here? So we actually just marked
Speaker 1: I think that twenty nine anniversary of the Family Medical
Speaker 1: Leave Act, which was historic at the time, to provide
Speaker 1: job protection. You know, that's what that bill was. It
Speaker 1: wasn't saying you were getting paid. It just meant you
Speaker 1: didn't lose your job for taking twelve weeks of paid
Speaker 1: lead of unpaid lead in most cases. Yeah, just saying
Speaker 1: I'm going to go have a baby, Can I please
Speaker 1: have my job when I come back. Well, that was
Speaker 1: controversial at the time, and unfortunately not everyone has that
Speaker 1: job protection now, especially for people who are making low
Speaker 1: wages and for workers who are part time. And so
Speaker 1: I totally agree with you that right now, our system
Speaker 1: is not set up to support young parents. It's also
Speaker 1: not set up to have people have what they need
Speaker 1: either to recover for themselves. Or to ensure that their
Speaker 1: borns are cared for. It's really hard to get early
Speaker 1: newborn care. Yet most people who have paid leave, that
Speaker 1: paid leave ends well before you can actually have access
Speaker 1: to care. So if you have four weeks of paid leave,
Speaker 1: which is considered a lot in in many places, it's
Speaker 1: hard to find care for a four week old. Most
Speaker 1: centers don't take a four or six weeks old. Those
Speaker 1: are tiny, tiny babies. So we are not set up.
Speaker 1: And what ends up happening is this invisible care that
Speaker 1: nobody talks about. We don't name the invisible cost that
Speaker 1: is mostly born by women in this country. It's just
Speaker 1: sort of not talked about, not name until now. I
Speaker 1: do think the pandemic people are starting to name the
Speaker 1: cost of care, that there is a cost that we're
Speaker 1: just not yet. Begs what can listeners and myself do? Dadly,
Speaker 1: we're also spending our time and energy fighting reproductive rights
Speaker 1: and things that are feeling like they're going backwards, and
Speaker 1: that why are we doing this again? Some days I
Speaker 1: just I don't even know where to put my energy
Speaker 1: because it's all a mess. Wow, I'm really a downer today.
Speaker 1: Good thing up with you, Fatima, because you are an optimist,
Speaker 1: who am I usually? So? Well, I'm going to give
Speaker 1: you something that maybe we'll feel slightly optimist. All right.
Speaker 1: So this sort of idea that people who are experiencing
Speaker 1: the hardest of all of it are the ones that
Speaker 1: actually have to engage the most is hard because people
Speaker 1: are like, no, I'm tired, I don't what what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? And it is precisely the time to
Speaker 1: put your energy into something else. It's precisely the time
Speaker 1: to join together with others who are also experiencing that
Speaker 1: same thing. That is how your voice is heard. And
Speaker 1: so we have a chance to do that yes on
Speaker 1: the issues of care, to keep them front and center,
Speaker 1: to let people know that we actually we care about it.
Speaker 1: It's precisely the time to do it with a hat on,
Speaker 1: to remind people that you know, we vote, and that
Speaker 1: these are the things that I would think about when
Speaker 1: I go to vote. People need to hear that. And
Speaker 1: I would argue that these issues aren't disconnected from the
Speaker 1: assault on reproductive healthcare and on abortion in particular, They
Speaker 1: actually are deeply connected. In many states, it's this sort
Speaker 1: of same state that is doing things like not wanting
Speaker 1: to take the child care money, not having a paid leave,
Speaker 1: conversation that same state is rolling back reproductive healthcare. There's
Speaker 1: an opportunity to join together and fight for a different future.
Speaker 1: And the strategy of sort of making people feel powerless
Speaker 1: is how nothing gets done. We are super powerful, that's
Speaker 1: so right. Yes, I do feel fired up. I'm pissed
Speaker 1: and powerful and powerful. You know what's weird is that
Speaker 1: I sometimes feel people don't even know where to get
Speaker 1: the information. My most privileged friends, I'm like, oh, I
Speaker 1: think there's like something in the state of California that
Speaker 1: you can look into to get money for your maturity leave,
Speaker 1: And literally they're like, wait, what I can I'm like, yet,
Speaker 1: how do we better help our friends to know that
Speaker 1: their state might have something available to them for a
Speaker 1: paid family leave or you know, something like that. So,
Speaker 1: if you're looking for information to know about what your
Speaker 1: rights are and whether you have options, a good place
Speaker 1: to start is the Department of Labor, either in your
Speaker 1: state or the U. S Department of Labor. But you know,
Speaker 1: they're one page explainers that usually break it down. I
Speaker 1: also want to give a little shout out to one
Speaker 1: of the things we do at the Law Centers We
Speaker 1: run a legal network and people give consultations to folks
Speaker 1: who are trying to figure out, wait, can I access
Speaker 1: this leave program? What are my rights? And where's stand
Speaker 1: ready to give consultations. And there are lots of organizations
Speaker 1: in who work locally in states who give information to
Speaker 1: So I want to make sure people know about that.
Speaker 1: So you should never be in a situation where the
Speaker 1: question is I don't know my rights. There are lots
Speaker 1: of ways to get that. What other specific laws or
Speaker 1: rights should we be fighting for or learn more about?
Speaker 1: All Right? I know people say nothing happens in Washington.
Speaker 1: There's a bill that I really feel like it can
Speaker 1: happen in Washington, and it is called the Pregnant Workers
Speaker 1: Fairness Act. Tell us more, tell us more. It is
Speaker 1: a bill that requires employers to provide accommodations if pregnant
Speaker 1: workers need them on the job. And those might look
Speaker 1: like different things, right for some folks, that might mean
Speaker 1: you need extra ppe, or you need a stool because
Speaker 1: you sit at a cash register and it's uncomfortable, or
Speaker 1: you need to be able to go to the bathroom
Speaker 1: and you need to go to the bathroom, which I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to say that if you've ever been pregnant,
Speaker 1: you pee all the time, all the time. I couldn't imagine,
Speaker 1: like that wouldn't be an option, like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I'm not allowed. You know, I worked in effect somewhere
Speaker 1: where I'm only allowed one pea break every four hours.
Speaker 1: I would be screwed, exactly, And unfortunately some workers are.
Speaker 1: And so this is one of those things that who's
Speaker 1: on the other side of the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act?
Speaker 1: I still am not quite sure. And it passed the
Speaker 1: House of Representatives with over three hundred votes. That is
Speaker 1: not how things typically happen in the House, and is
Speaker 1: super close in the Senate. This is an example of
Speaker 1: a thing that should just happen right now for pregnant workers.
Speaker 1: It's just essentially making that while you're working, you're working
Speaker 1: under better circumstances whilst pregnant. That is right. And you know,
Speaker 1: for for some folks, they might say, well, already, boss
Speaker 1: is pretty good to me. I never had a problem
Speaker 1: while working while I was pregnant. But unfortunately sometimes people
Speaker 1: get are not so good boss, or they work in
Speaker 1: a job that requires them to be on their feet
Speaker 1: all day. You know, we hear from a lot of
Speaker 1: teachers who are like, it's not going to work this way,
Speaker 1: I have to do it another way. Or during COVID
Speaker 1: it was coming up a lot where people needed remote access,
Speaker 1: sometimes because their doctors told them not to be in
Speaker 1: particular types of settings. It shouldn't require you to look
Speaker 1: into a good boss who hears your accommodation needs in
Speaker 1: order to be safe. In order to be safe, and
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to choose between having a healthy pregnancy
Speaker 1: and having a job. Again, I just feel like people
Speaker 1: don't know what their rights are. I don't know why,
Speaker 1: but I I hear this a lot well. And part
Speaker 1: of the challenge is that every state has a different
Speaker 1: set of laws. And that is because we don't have
Speaker 1: a national paid leave program where it's like, well know
Speaker 1: the answer is x six days and X number of
Speaker 1: days for parental leave. We don't have that. So every
Speaker 1: state is different. Sometimes cities have rules that are different,
Speaker 1: and so you do have to make sure that you're
Speaker 1: matching your options with where you actually live. But that's
Speaker 1: why I offered the there's the legal network for gender equity.
Speaker 1: If people need tailored information or or believe they have
Speaker 1: leave but they're not able to access it. There's also
Speaker 1: really wonderful organizations where loking around the country, groups like
Speaker 1: a Better Balance, the National Partnership for Women and Families,
Speaker 1: the Paid Leave for All Campaign, who are trying to
Speaker 1: both pass stronger national measures but also are doing a
Speaker 1: good job educating people around what their rights are. What
Speaker 1: are your goals for the next six months? So my
Speaker 1: goals broadly at the Law Center. When I think about
Speaker 1: the next six months, um at the on the other
Speaker 1: side of the next six months, a couple of things
Speaker 1: will have happened. Yes I need that too because I
Speaker 1: was like six months one year. But yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's fair, it's fair. I really do hope we're going
Speaker 1: to get a big investment in care. It is a
Speaker 1: big priority for us. We have not given up and
Speaker 1: we're fighting for it. I also think we will have
Speaker 1: confirmed and exceptionally qualified historic first black women to the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. And you see me dancing in the street
Speaker 1: as someone is I mean, as someone who has practiced,
Speaker 1: you know, law for a couple of decades. I don't
Speaker 1: know that I would have thought in my legal career
Speaker 1: that I would have seen it. And I think about
Speaker 1: when I was in law school you know, I had
Speaker 1: no black women professors when I was in law school. Uh.
Speaker 1: I think about the ten years where we saw no
Speaker 1: black women confirmed to the Courts of Appeals, and the
Speaker 1: idea that there are so many black women who are
Speaker 1: being considered they could fill up a couple of Supreme courts. Ah,
Speaker 1: that would be amazing. So that is a goal, the
Speaker 1: big one. What would be something achievable that we could
Speaker 1: all very much help with in the next couple of years.
Speaker 1: So when I think about the next couple of years,
Speaker 1: and you know, we've got to get through this election
Speaker 1: this fall, I hope people in this election will tell
Speaker 1: the story and fight for care. I hope that's going
Speaker 1: to be on the agenda. Leading on the agenda we're
Speaker 1: about to enter. I believe a new period on access
Speaker 1: to reproductive healthcare, and it's going to require people who
Speaker 1: may or may not have engaged very much on the
Speaker 1: issue to show up for people. And so I actually
Speaker 1: hope that's what we see. I hope we see people
Speaker 1: showing up, even if they're in a state we're all
Speaker 1: options are on the table, that they're showing up for
Speaker 1: everyone else. And that's going to be a new period
Speaker 1: for us as a country, and I actually do believe
Speaker 1: over the next couple of years we will shift totally
Speaker 1: how we think about these types of care investments. I
Speaker 1: don't think we're going back to the notion that it's
Speaker 1: every family for themselves and good luck. I think if
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen this year, there will be a stronger
Speaker 1: political force that emerges of mostly mamas, together with care workers,
Speaker 1: together with those who need elder care, saying we are
Speaker 1: all stronger together and we're demanding more, and so I
Speaker 1: hope people will join that. I hope they will not
Speaker 1: forget this period, and we'll join that, whether it is
Speaker 1: fighting for something at the national level or for deeper
Speaker 1: investments in their own communities. I feel so inspired by that.
Speaker 1: How old are your children? Minor ten and thirteen? Oh? Wow,
Speaker 1: that's so exciting. Do they think you have the coolest job?
Speaker 1: Did they get it? Or they just like mom? It's
Speaker 1: much more, you know, I have teens and tweens, so
Speaker 1: I'm much more in the mom phase pretty much all
Speaker 1: the time. Wow. And did you go back to work
Speaker 1: right away when they were little? You know, I took
Speaker 1: long leaves. I took four months the first time, which
Speaker 1: is longer than the three and then the second time
Speaker 1: I took around five months, and then I did some
Speaker 1: intermittent and I will say I came back from my
Speaker 1: first leave tired, exhausted, and was promoted to a vice
Speaker 1: president within a few months. And I will tell you again,
Speaker 1: I just want to name that that was at the time,
Speaker 1: the National Women's lost in er investing in me and
Speaker 1: investing me, not just sort of saying you've been gone
Speaker 1: for quite a while, so I don't know what you're
Speaker 1: capable of. Yeah, sure, um, And and that mattered. It
Speaker 1: made me loyal, It made me appreciative of the time
Speaker 1: and space, And so I think about that. People need
Speaker 1: different things at different points in their career. There are
Speaker 1: times when our caregiving obligations are deep and serious, and
Speaker 1: what I hope is that employers wouldn't meet them. They
Speaker 1: wouldn't meet their employees where they are. When it doesn't happen,
Speaker 1: that is when we know we have to set a floor.
Speaker 1: We have to set a floor for the employees who
Speaker 1: are not going to show up, so at the very
Speaker 1: least they do things, and then if they want to
Speaker 1: retain their staff, they'll do more. I feel the same.
Speaker 1: I feel so grateful sitting here. I mean, obviously what
Speaker 1: I do is in no way shape a comparison, but
Speaker 1: I do have to say that, you know, being an actor,
Speaker 1: you'd always heard like you better not get pregnant because
Speaker 1: no one's gonna hire you. And you know you don't
Speaker 1: want to be you know, you're in big trouble if
Speaker 1: you don't book a job, you know, before three months,
Speaker 1: and then everyone's showing you're never gonna work. And also
Speaker 1: you're not sexy anymore and you're not this or that
Speaker 1: or whatever. And Miss Shonda Rhymes, who produces this podcast,
Speaker 1: sat me down and said, do you want to have
Speaker 1: a family. You know, this was years ago, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I do, and she was like, well, you
Speaker 1: should definitely do it on my watch because I know
Speaker 1: how to do it and I take care of my ladies.
Speaker 1: And it's like famously known in Hollywood how any actress
Speaker 1: who wants to be a mom is praying to get
Speaker 1: on a shot show because she will take care of you.
Speaker 1: She just goes above and beyond. You know, I was
Speaker 1: back pump being in my trailer every three hours on
Speaker 1: the dot. When I went back to work. At no
Speaker 1: point was it an inconvenience or I was thought less
Speaker 1: than I have an employee who was terrified to tell
Speaker 1: me she was pregnant, and I was like, yes, you
Speaker 1: have all the time off your need. I'm paying you
Speaker 1: the whole time, you know, I mean, but but we
Speaker 1: have to pay it forward. I feel so lucky to
Speaker 1: have been treated that way through both of my pregnancies.
Speaker 1: I was able to celebrate my pregnancies and coming back
Speaker 1: to work because I was supported that I was then
Speaker 1: able to do such a better job at my job,
Speaker 1: and I never felt terrified to leave my baby. I
Speaker 1: felt like I could do it, you know, because I
Speaker 1: was supported in the workforce and my and at my
Speaker 1: home life. You know, that's it. But that's investing in
Speaker 1: your people, right. It's not actually rocket science, but it
Speaker 1: also is too rare. And the reason people are terrified,
Speaker 1: they're terrified for a good reason because with the wrong boss,
Speaker 1: they might be fired or retaliate against. I mean, pregnancy
Speaker 1: is actually a time retaliation is super super high, where
Speaker 1: people it just so happened to lose their to lose
Speaker 1: their jobs just when they need their income. And so
Speaker 1: I actually think because if you know, the more we
Speaker 1: tell the stories of what's possible. You know, if Shonda
Speaker 1: Rhimes could tell the story of what it looks like
Speaker 1: to create conditions where people can have families and thrive,
Speaker 1: then it won't be a unicorn. Right. We wanted to
Speaker 1: be the standard, and I can try to build that
Speaker 1: standard through legislation and through lawsuits. That's one way. Also,
Speaker 1: employers don't have to wait until they are forced to.
Speaker 1: If they want right, and you were more loyal, your
Speaker 1: staff is more likely to stay, they return, They're more productive,
Speaker 1: they are healthier, they're all the benefits that that are
Speaker 1: tied to actually investing in in their care means. That's
Speaker 1: it we need to invest. I mean, and it's just
Speaker 1: a microcosm for how how great it is all around
Speaker 1: and how it could and possibly be in this optimist
Speaker 1: utopian that you see hopefully for us someday. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's going to be that far away. I mean,
Speaker 1: I can't even tell you how many friends that I
Speaker 1: had that were pregnant were so relieved that things were
Speaker 1: on zoom because they were like, oh, I can put
Speaker 1: myself up for that promotion because they won't know I'm
Speaker 1: pregnant till week thirty and they won't pass over me
Speaker 1: and I'm like, are we really still doing this? This
Speaker 1: is a mayor. Yeah. I am so grateful for everything
Speaker 1: that you are doing and for the National Women's Law Center. Again,
Speaker 1: everyone listening, please look at the site. Forwarded onto any
Speaker 1: friends you know who don't know what their rights are,
Speaker 1: how they can get access two things that they should
Speaker 1: be getting access to. And then also, guys, get involved. Vote.
Speaker 1: These are the times we are on the brink, no question.
Speaker 1: I am so glad to be with you, and if
Speaker 1: I could just echo the call to action to both
Speaker 1: go to our site, please do but also vote. I
Speaker 1: mean it matters. Fatima, thank you so much, thank you
Speaker 1: for letting us be the last stop of your very busy,
Speaker 1: important day. And to all of our listeners again, but
Speaker 1: visit the site. We will put links to it, and um,
Speaker 1: thank you again for fighting the fight. So very glad
Speaker 1: to be here, so very glad. Oh wow, you guys,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I
Speaker 1: have to admit I started it off a little bit
Speaker 1: bummed and like, oh man, we are screwed, and I
Speaker 1: feel so much better. I mean, Teama Goss Graves just
Speaker 1: inspired the hell out of me and I think we're
Speaker 1: all on the brink of change and really helping out
Speaker 1: our mamas and our pregnant women out there. What'd you
Speaker 1: guys think of the episode? I want to hear from you.
Speaker 1: What other guest topics do you want to hear about?
Speaker 1: You can always find me Katie's Crib at Shonda land
Speaker 1: dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land
Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from Shonda land Audio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite ships.