WEBVTT - The Big Data Revolution 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:24.036 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.076 --> 0:00:27.596 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.116 --> 0:00:31.756 I'm Noah Feldman. Today I'm speaking to one of the 0:00:31.796 --> 0:00:37.556 most influential and extraordinary scientists I know, Eric Lander. Eric 0:00:37.676 --> 0:00:40.916 is the president and founding director of the Broad Institute 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:45.836 of MIT and Harvard. He's geneticist, a molecular biologist, a 0:00:45.876 --> 0:00:49.396 mathematician by original training, and he's also the host of 0:00:49.436 --> 0:00:53.756 a brand new Pushkin podcast called Brave New Planet. Eric 0:00:53.796 --> 0:00:58.036 has been at the epicenter of a great transformation in 0:00:58.236 --> 0:01:02.036 biology and indeed of science that's taken place over the 0:01:02.116 --> 0:01:07.076 last thirty years. A transformation focused most fundamentally on what 0:01:07.196 --> 0:01:10.516 can be done with the gathering of greater and greater 0:01:10.596 --> 0:01:15.076 and greater amounts of data about biological systems, including the 0:01:15.156 --> 0:01:18.836 human body. These developments are crucial to how science is 0:01:18.916 --> 0:01:22.996 being done every day, and they're absolutely crucial as well 0:01:23.276 --> 0:01:27.756 to how science has responded to COVID nineteen. It's a 0:01:27.796 --> 0:01:33.996 thrill to have Eric on the podcast. Eric, thank you 0:01:34.076 --> 0:01:37.516 so much for joining us. I want to start with 0:01:37.796 --> 0:01:41.996 the role you've played in really a transformative period in 0:01:41.996 --> 0:01:45.596 the history of modern science, a period which in certain ways, 0:01:45.636 --> 0:01:48.036 is being reflected in the cutting edge developments that are 0:01:48.076 --> 0:01:51.436 happening every day that we all care about most in science, 0:01:51.476 --> 0:01:56.276 including indirectly in the context of the vaccines for COVID nineteen. 0:01:56.956 --> 0:02:00.276 And that's a period in which big data has come 0:02:00.316 --> 0:02:03.636 to be a fundamental, some would say, the fundamental tool 0:02:04.356 --> 0:02:08.916 for solving our biggest scientific problems. You came across this 0:02:09.156 --> 0:02:12.316 already when you're working on the human genome project, but 0:02:12.396 --> 0:02:14.916 then it's been your central focus and your creation of 0:02:14.916 --> 0:02:17.116 the broad Now. I know this is a big picture question, 0:02:17.196 --> 0:02:19.556 but I wonder if you would just how a few bars, 0:02:19.756 --> 0:02:24.116 if you would for the audience about how this transformation 0:02:24.556 --> 0:02:26.876 in the way we think about what science is and 0:02:26.876 --> 0:02:29.876 how it works has come home. Now, Wow, what a 0:02:29.916 --> 0:02:33.036 small question to start with. No othing. I think there's 0:02:33.076 --> 0:02:37.316 a kind of high school cartoon version of what science 0:02:37.476 --> 0:02:43.796 is which runs something like this, Scientists make a hypothesis 0:02:43.876 --> 0:02:45.956 and then they set up a test, and then they 0:02:46.076 --> 0:02:49.556 test their hypothesis and see if it holds up or 0:02:49.596 --> 0:02:54.116 they should reject it. I think it misses a fundamental 0:02:54.196 --> 0:02:59.996 question where do hypotheses come from? Anyway, And many of 0:03:00.036 --> 0:03:04.076 the most important hypotheses come from just looking at the world. 0:03:04.676 --> 0:03:07.996 And what's happened in the last twenty thirty years in 0:03:07.996 --> 0:03:13.556 biology is we've been able to take almost entirely unbiased 0:03:13.716 --> 0:03:16.956 looks at parts of biology. The human genome was the 0:03:16.996 --> 0:03:21.356 first great example of that three billion letters of human instructions, 0:03:21.356 --> 0:03:26.796 and rather than diving in with a hypothesis I think 0:03:26.876 --> 0:03:32.236 this gene causes cystic fibrosis or some other aspect of 0:03:32.236 --> 0:03:37.476 a disease, you can ask questions like, amongst every gene 0:03:37.516 --> 0:03:41.396 in the genome, which ones show an inheritance pattern that 0:03:41.436 --> 0:03:46.756 matches up with cystic fibrosis, And instead of being limited 0:03:46.876 --> 0:03:51.956 to hypothesis driven science, you can do what some people 0:03:52.356 --> 0:03:56.756 you know call hypothesis free science. We're never free of hypothesis, 0:03:57.116 --> 0:04:00.476 but the limits are removed so much it's changed the 0:04:00.516 --> 0:04:04.436 way we approach biology because it's sort of big data. 0:04:04.516 --> 0:04:06.356 But what I really think about it is the big 0:04:06.436 --> 0:04:10.956 data is that life keep notes in its lab notebook, 0:04:11.156 --> 0:04:14.676 the genome, and in this generation, we've got access to 0:04:14.716 --> 0:04:18.436 that lab notebook and we can read and the questions 0:04:18.476 --> 0:04:22.636 we can ask are only limited by our creativity. Translating 0:04:22.676 --> 0:04:27.556 that into practical terms, how for example, today when scientists 0:04:27.596 --> 0:04:31.316 can affronted sars Covi two and said, okay, let's figure 0:04:31.356 --> 0:04:33.276 this out and then let's find something to do about it. 0:04:33.556 --> 0:04:36.156 How did their approach differ from the way it would 0:04:36.196 --> 0:04:39.436 have looked, say twenty five or thirty years ago, or 0:04:39.476 --> 0:04:42.876 four years ago actually in this case, so let me 0:04:42.876 --> 0:04:46.316 give you an example. There is something called the Human 0:04:46.516 --> 0:04:51.076 cell Atlas. It's probably this generation's successor to the Human 0:04:51.116 --> 0:04:54.156 Genome Project. The Human Genome Project was reading out all 0:04:54.196 --> 0:04:58.316 the genetic information in a human The Human Cell Atlass 0:04:58.596 --> 0:05:01.556 was reading out what are all the cells in the 0:05:01.676 --> 0:05:05.276 human body? By asking which of the twenty thousand genes 0:05:05.276 --> 0:05:07.916 are turned on in this cell or that cell. It 0:05:08.036 --> 0:05:11.876 became possible and eight years ago to start reading at 0:05:11.916 --> 0:05:15.356 a single cell basis the genes that are turned on 0:05:15.396 --> 0:05:18.636 and by how much in first dozens of cells, then 0:05:18.716 --> 0:05:22.196 thousands of cells, then millions of cells, and eventually it'll 0:05:22.236 --> 0:05:26.396 be billions of cells. And an international catalog. International program 0:05:26.476 --> 0:05:31.316 to create that catalog describing all possible cells and their 0:05:32.036 --> 0:05:36.756 expression patterns of genes and the states they find themselves 0:05:36.756 --> 0:05:40.596 in just caught fire around the world. So then stars 0:05:40.676 --> 0:05:47.516 comes along and people ask what cells might sars Covie 0:05:47.596 --> 0:05:52.436 two in fact, well, it was known that the previous 0:05:52.476 --> 0:05:57.876 coronavirus SARS, infected cells that had a particular gene that 0:05:58.076 --> 0:06:01.316 was active goes by the name ACE two. But that 0:06:01.356 --> 0:06:05.436 doesn't matter. People quickly figured out that the same gene 0:06:05.556 --> 0:06:09.196 was used as the receptor for the new coronavirus. And 0:06:09.236 --> 0:06:11.556 then you wanted to ask the question, what's every cell 0:06:11.596 --> 0:06:17.436 in the body that expresses the receptor for the new coronavirus. Well, 0:06:17.476 --> 0:06:21.036 in ancient times, meaning four years ago, one would have 0:06:21.036 --> 0:06:25.116 had to have done thousands of experiments to figure that out. Instead, 0:06:25.756 --> 0:06:28.156 the scientific community came together and then a matter of 0:06:28.196 --> 0:06:32.716 two weeks, sifted through all the data about which genes 0:06:32.756 --> 0:06:35.556 are on and off in which cell types to say, oh, yes, 0:06:35.876 --> 0:06:39.116 here are the different cell types that might be infectable. 0:06:39.476 --> 0:06:41.276 And you know, one of the things they found was 0:06:41.316 --> 0:06:45.756 the smell receptors in your nose. They made that discovery 0:06:45.796 --> 0:06:49.916 and then three days later people reported that people were 0:06:49.916 --> 0:06:53.836 losing their sense to smell when infected by the virus. Bingo. 0:06:54.476 --> 0:06:58.156 The idea that we have lookup tables, Yeah, pretty good now, 0:06:58.196 --> 0:07:01.876 but much much better in the coming years. For every 0:07:01.916 --> 0:07:04.636 cell in our body is going to mean that any process, 0:07:04.676 --> 0:07:07.636 whether it's a virus that's infecting us or some other 0:07:07.716 --> 0:07:10.676 physiological process, we're going to be able to look up 0:07:10.756 --> 0:07:13.836 signatures for it. It doesn't solve all problems, that doesn't 0:07:13.836 --> 0:07:16.556 make a disease go away, but maybe it cuts a 0:07:16.716 --> 0:07:20.556 year or more off the work. I guess an older 0:07:20.556 --> 0:07:23.836 example would be chemistry before there was a periodic table 0:07:23.876 --> 0:07:27.036 of the elements. In chemistry, after there was a periodic 0:07:27.076 --> 0:07:30.196 table of the elements, didn't solve all chemistry, but no 0:07:30.356 --> 0:07:34.276 chemists thought about chemistry the same way after the periodic 0:07:34.316 --> 0:07:38.956 table was in evidence. Do the mRNA vaccines that are 0:07:39.036 --> 0:07:41.556 in development and that have been so far attested in 0:07:41.596 --> 0:07:45.116 what looks like a very promising way to address SOARS 0:07:45.156 --> 0:07:49.436 covy two infection themselves owe something to these revolutions in 0:07:49.716 --> 0:07:52.556 biology My impressions that they do. Oh yeah, of course, 0:07:52.996 --> 0:07:56.996 How did anybody find this sarscovy two virus so quickly? 0:07:57.836 --> 0:08:02.636 You know, establishing what was the virus behind AIDS HIV 0:08:03.396 --> 0:08:07.276 took quite a long time. Even establishing some of these 0:08:07.276 --> 0:08:10.996 other more recent novel virus that have appeared have taken 0:08:10.996 --> 0:08:15.636 a long time. Now, with kind of a hypothesis free 0:08:15.636 --> 0:08:20.836 brute force sequencing approach, you could take cells from infected patients, 0:08:21.396 --> 0:08:25.956 sequence the genes that are getting expressed, and say, WHOA, 0:08:26.036 --> 0:08:29.076 are there any genes here that aren't supposed to be 0:08:29.116 --> 0:08:32.556 in humans? And when you sift the genes you see 0:08:32.556 --> 0:08:35.556 in the cells versus the genes you expect in the cells, 0:08:36.036 --> 0:08:38.956 the difference kind of turns out to be this virus 0:08:38.996 --> 0:08:41.476 that's infecting you. You didn't need to go in with 0:08:41.716 --> 0:08:45.636 the hypothesis that it wasn't necessarily a coronavirus, or that 0:08:45.676 --> 0:08:48.996 you were looking for a particular kind of gene. You 0:08:48.996 --> 0:08:51.716 could go in saying I think there's a virus to 0:08:51.876 --> 0:08:57.116 look for what novel stuff is getting expressed. So it's 0:08:57.116 --> 0:09:01.636 a great example of the ability to make discovery science 0:09:01.716 --> 0:09:05.036 by looking at the big picture in a comprehensive way. 0:09:05.116 --> 0:09:10.076 Kind of global views of biology have become possible, and 0:09:10.116 --> 0:09:14.876 they depend on people generating data, making those data freely available, 0:09:15.276 --> 0:09:19.316 a whole new generation of scientists growing up who live 0:09:19.476 --> 0:09:23.876 to analyze those kind of data, and incredible creativity because 0:09:23.876 --> 0:09:25.556 you'd think, oh, there's a big pile of data, you 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:28.516 just crunched it through the computer. But given a big 0:09:28.556 --> 0:09:32.636 pile of information, you can ask a thousand different questions 0:09:32.796 --> 0:09:36.036 and it depends on the perspective you're bringing. So I'm 0:09:36.076 --> 0:09:40.196 just in awe of the creativity that people bring to 0:09:40.276 --> 0:09:43.156 these questions. I think at the beginning people thought, oh, 0:09:43.196 --> 0:09:47.516 all this data are boring, But of course they're an 0:09:47.556 --> 0:09:53.956 invitation for incredible diversity of intellectual questions. This is a 0:09:53.996 --> 0:09:57.036 philosophical question. But do you think that the changes that 0:09:57.316 --> 0:10:00.076 we've seen in these recent decades count as not just 0:10:00.396 --> 0:10:02.916 an evolution in the way the biology has done, but 0:10:02.956 --> 0:10:06.636 in fact as a revolution, especially with respect to being 0:10:06.676 --> 0:10:09.356 able to do something different than saying, here's our hypothesis. Now, 0:10:09.436 --> 0:10:11.716 let's search instead being able to look at a huge 0:10:11.716 --> 0:10:14.956 body of data and say, well, what are the associations? 0:10:14.996 --> 0:10:18.196 What are the associations across the genome. Let's drill down 0:10:18.236 --> 0:10:20.436 and see which ones turn out to be real and 0:10:20.476 --> 0:10:22.476 which ones turn out not to be real. At that 0:10:22.516 --> 0:10:24.716 point you can form my hypothesis. But as it were, 0:10:24.756 --> 0:10:28.236 the hypothesis comes from the associations. Yeah. I think people 0:10:28.276 --> 0:10:30.796 can fight over whether you should choose the word revolution, 0:10:30.876 --> 0:10:34.956 but it seems to me anything that radically changes your 0:10:34.996 --> 0:10:39.516 perspective deserves to be called a revolution. And this idea 0:10:39.636 --> 0:10:42.156 that we used to have that we'd be good at 0:10:42.236 --> 0:10:47.396 guessing what are the processes responsible for cystic fibrosis, or 0:10:47.476 --> 0:10:52.036 heart disease or schizophrenia, you know, just a mystery locked 0:10:52.076 --> 0:10:55.236 in people's brains. The idea that we're supposed to guess 0:10:55.316 --> 0:10:59.076 that based on some prior knowledge of biology was I think, 0:10:59.236 --> 0:11:02.236 doing biology with your hands tied behind your back. The 0:11:02.316 --> 0:11:05.956 idea that we could range across the genome and ask 0:11:06.196 --> 0:11:10.916 why there genetic variations anywhere more frequently found in people 0:11:11.276 --> 0:11:14.916 who have schizophrenia, Well it turned out that instead of 0:11:14.956 --> 0:11:17.796 finding one gene, it's pointed now to two hundred and 0:11:17.876 --> 0:11:21.956 sixty five genes across the genome that play roles. But 0:11:22.316 --> 0:11:27.836 no forward make a hypothesis based on prior knowledge could 0:11:27.956 --> 0:11:32.196 possibly have produced that picture. And biologists at some point 0:11:32.476 --> 0:11:35.756 argued over this new way of thinking, and now, as usual, 0:11:35.796 --> 0:11:39.076 they've just absorbed it into the way biologists think. But 0:11:39.236 --> 0:11:42.556 looking back, it was a shift that took place in 0:11:42.596 --> 0:11:46.916 the eighties and nineties and really took hold in the 0:11:46.956 --> 0:11:50.436 first decade of this century. You know, intellectual shifts like 0:11:50.476 --> 0:11:52.596 that are quite amazing. You know. I were still run 0:11:52.596 --> 0:11:55.796 a laboratory, and one of my students at some lab 0:11:55.836 --> 0:11:58.716 meeting a couple of years ago, was listening to a 0:11:58.756 --> 0:12:03.476 description and he just turned and he said, before you 0:12:03.556 --> 0:12:07.876 knew the sequence to the genome, how did you do anything? 0:12:09.676 --> 0:12:12.116 Of course lots got done, but it was the sign 0:12:12.236 --> 0:12:15.676 of what what intellectual progress is, which it so completely 0:12:15.716 --> 0:12:18.516 infects the way you think about things that you assume 0:12:18.636 --> 0:12:32.996 it's been in the woodwork forever. We'll be right back, Eric. 0:12:33.036 --> 0:12:36.716 I want to ask you about how the institutions that 0:12:36.916 --> 0:12:40.396 enable science to be done have been changing as a 0:12:40.436 --> 0:12:45.596 consequence of the apocal change in the cognitive part of 0:12:45.596 --> 0:12:48.596 science that you're describing. Your institute that you're the founding 0:12:48.636 --> 0:12:52.796 director of, the Broad Institute is a great example. It's 0:12:53.516 --> 0:12:57.516 tremendously influential throughout the areas of science which it touches upon, 0:12:57.596 --> 0:13:01.076 and it touches upon many areas of science. It's extremely 0:13:01.116 --> 0:13:04.916 well funded, it's not subordinated to the universities that it's 0:13:04.956 --> 0:13:08.476 affiliated with Harvard and m T the way a traditional 0:13:08.516 --> 0:13:13.036 institutent have been. And to be blunt, it's enormously powerful 0:13:13.116 --> 0:13:18.476 in the world of science. How coincidental is the evolution 0:13:18.516 --> 0:13:20.796 of the Broad to the developments you're talking about. I mean, 0:13:20.876 --> 0:13:23.516 had you started the Broad and it's not been the 0:13:23.516 --> 0:13:25.956 way science was done would it have been as significant? 0:13:25.996 --> 0:13:28.676 And similarly, had you not started the Broad But had 0:13:28.676 --> 0:13:31.436 these scientific developments occurred, could they have occurred with the 0:13:31.476 --> 0:13:35.356 same speed and efficiency Starting the Broad Institute it was 0:13:35.396 --> 0:13:39.716 a response to these scientific changes. The Broad was an 0:13:39.756 --> 0:13:45.916 answer to these new intellectual possibilities. But the word that 0:13:45.996 --> 0:13:48.036 you didn't mention, which I think, is that the heart 0:13:48.076 --> 0:13:51.036 of all of it is collaboration. We use the word 0:13:51.076 --> 0:13:55.596 collaboration lightly. It's doing anything as we collaborate with somebody. No, no, 0:13:55.796 --> 0:14:00.596 there's a sense of deep collaboration that underlies this new 0:14:00.636 --> 0:14:04.036 era of science. So you know, what the Broad really 0:14:04.116 --> 0:14:06.876 is is an intellectual meeting ground. What the Broad is 0:14:06.916 --> 0:14:14.116 about is a collaborative spirit that is I think necessary 0:14:14.156 --> 0:14:18.116 to take full advantage of where science is going right now. 0:14:18.356 --> 0:14:22.156 Everything else follows from that. I totally buy that collaboration 0:14:22.276 --> 0:14:25.276 is kind of the special sauce. It's also true, though, 0:14:25.276 --> 0:14:28.636 that once there is a site of collaboration, that site 0:14:28.636 --> 0:14:32.516 of collaboration can become tremendously empowered. I mean, think of 0:14:32.516 --> 0:14:36.156 a trading zone in ancient civilizations or even in modern civilizations. 0:14:36.156 --> 0:14:38.756 So if you find a spot where cultures converge in 0:14:38.796 --> 0:14:43.956 collaboration becomes possible, that place becomes enriched and becomes powerful. 0:14:43.956 --> 0:14:46.236 You know, Venice might be the classic example. It's a 0:14:46.316 --> 0:14:48.916 kind of crossroads of East and West a certain moment 0:14:48.956 --> 0:14:52.396 in history, and then tremendous wealth and power accrue in Venice. 0:14:52.596 --> 0:14:54.756 And I guess what I'm wondering about is as the 0:14:54.876 --> 0:14:57.196 resources needed to do biology at the highest level have 0:14:57.236 --> 0:15:02.236 become greater and greater, doesn't that empower the institutions that 0:15:02.276 --> 0:15:04.876 are at the center, that are the collaboration crossroads that 0:15:04.916 --> 0:15:07.996 can raise the funds and then everyone really wants to 0:15:07.996 --> 0:15:10.076 get a part of the action, which seems justifiable and 0:15:10.116 --> 0:15:11.996 good for science. I'm not objecting to this, I'm just 0:15:11.996 --> 0:15:14.716 trying to describe it. And no, I think biology is 0:15:14.756 --> 0:15:17.396 just much more diverse than that. There are so many 0:15:17.516 --> 0:15:21.676 different ways to do biology. As much as I champion 0:15:21.796 --> 0:15:26.156 the rise of the ability to generate large data and 0:15:26.276 --> 0:15:30.316 learn from it, it's one lens on biology. It's probably 0:15:30.316 --> 0:15:34.076 fair to say that ninety five percent of biological discovery 0:15:34.116 --> 0:15:38.036 today still is going on in traditional laboratory structures, and 0:15:38.276 --> 0:15:42.596 they are dramatically empowered by the fact that the five 0:15:42.636 --> 0:15:46.356 percent of places that are really into the let's generate 0:15:46.436 --> 0:15:49.036 large data and analyze it all that put the data 0:15:49.116 --> 0:15:52.476 freely out there because they use it. So the traditional 0:15:52.516 --> 0:15:58.556 biological laboratory, which remains an incredibly powerful model, it becomes 0:15:58.596 --> 0:16:02.556 a solid foundation that saves them tons of work. I 0:16:02.636 --> 0:16:06.676 think what this has done is this has allowed different 0:16:06.756 --> 0:16:10.636 approaches to grow up and interact, and it will continue 0:16:10.676 --> 0:16:15.036 to change. I don't see anything close to a monopoly 0:16:15.116 --> 0:16:18.636 of approach or a monopoly of power in modern biology, 0:16:18.676 --> 0:16:22.836 because a biology is way too rich for that. One 0:16:22.876 --> 0:16:25.836 of the consistent themes in your fascinating career, Eric is 0:16:25.876 --> 0:16:28.796 that you've been constantly in touch with as an advisor 0:16:28.836 --> 0:16:33.396 to or interacting with government. You've also been part of 0:16:33.436 --> 0:16:37.036 the broader field of academic science, always centrally, and you've 0:16:37.076 --> 0:16:41.116 also touched on the private sector corporate part, which is 0:16:41.116 --> 0:16:44.596 one of the three legs, as it were, of contemporary science. 0:16:45.996 --> 0:16:49.196 How do you see the relationship between those different moving 0:16:49.276 --> 0:16:53.236 parts changing. We all still very much have the COVID 0:16:53.676 --> 0:16:56.876 vaccine race in our minds, in which you've had government 0:16:56.876 --> 0:17:01.156 playing sum roble, you've had private sector, you've had academic centers. 0:17:01.676 --> 0:17:04.276 So that might be a concrete example to use, although 0:17:04.316 --> 0:17:07.476 you feel free to use others too. You're describing a 0:17:07.556 --> 0:17:10.876 model that was laid out in the closing months of 0:17:10.876 --> 0:17:15.996 World War two. Very famously. Franklin Roosevelt, a couple of 0:17:16.036 --> 0:17:19.196 weeks after his reelection in nineteen forty four, wrote to 0:17:19.276 --> 0:17:24.276 his science advisor Veniva Bush, saying, boy, this science and 0:17:24.276 --> 0:17:27.796 technology stuff's been pretty helpful in bringing the war at 0:17:27.876 --> 0:17:32.276 least a successful direction. Then and eventually conclusion, how can 0:17:32.316 --> 0:17:35.916 it make a big difference in peacetime? And Bush wrote 0:17:36.156 --> 0:17:42.156 this report that is sort of known as a foundational text, Science, Science, 0:17:42.276 --> 0:17:47.676 the Endless Frontier, and it laid out and eventually shaped 0:17:48.236 --> 0:17:52.236 a world in which we have three pieces. We have government, 0:17:52.276 --> 0:17:55.876 we have academia, we have industry. And there's this virtuous 0:17:55.916 --> 0:18:00.916 cycle where Bush said in this report scientific discovery, which 0:18:00.996 --> 0:18:03.356 during the war had been going on in government labs, 0:18:03.796 --> 0:18:06.396 it should go on in universities, and it should go 0:18:06.396 --> 0:18:09.196 on in the context of training the next generation. And 0:18:09.276 --> 0:18:14.396 governments should fund academia to make basic knowledge fundamental knowledge 0:18:14.396 --> 0:18:18.076 and make it broadly available. Industry is then able to 0:18:18.116 --> 0:18:20.796 pick up that knowledge and turn it into private goods, 0:18:20.876 --> 0:18:24.996 private products. And this virtuous cycle I've written about it, 0:18:24.996 --> 0:18:27.716 and I called it like this miracle machine is something 0:18:27.756 --> 0:18:31.916 that the United States perfected before and better than any 0:18:31.956 --> 0:18:34.956 other country of how these pieces work off each other. 0:18:35.316 --> 0:18:39.996 As an academic, I understand that our goal is create 0:18:40.196 --> 0:18:44.676 knowledge and make it broadly available. But I also know 0:18:45.196 --> 0:18:47.556 that it's never going to complete its mission if it 0:18:47.596 --> 0:18:50.916 doesn't get to patients, and so academia has to work 0:18:50.956 --> 0:18:54.276 with industry and government tests to think about what should 0:18:54.276 --> 0:18:58.356 its policies be on funding. But understanding that balance of 0:18:58.356 --> 0:19:04.196 those three partners in trying to create social products to 0:19:04.316 --> 0:19:08.116 make society healthier, wealthier, and more secure, I think it's 0:19:08.116 --> 0:19:11.036 really important to think about that. You depict a somewhat 0:19:11.116 --> 0:19:13.516 rosy picture there, and I think for those of us 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:15.636 just coming out of we're not quite out of it yet, 0:19:15.636 --> 0:19:19.796 but a Trump administration viewing an administration that was deeply 0:19:19.836 --> 0:19:22.396 skeptical of science in a whole range of ways, from 0:19:22.436 --> 0:19:26.996 climate ultimately to the epidemiologists advice on how to handle COVID, 0:19:27.076 --> 0:19:29.636 and then which finally circled back to but we're doing 0:19:29.636 --> 0:19:33.756 such a great job because we're facilitating the emergence of vaccines. 0:19:33.836 --> 0:19:36.276 Left a lot of us skeptical about the productive role 0:19:36.556 --> 0:19:38.236 that government can play, and then apart from that, a 0:19:38.276 --> 0:19:41.236 lot of us have independent skepticism of the tremendous power 0:19:41.396 --> 0:19:44.076 of private companies. Is there anything you would say that's 0:19:44.116 --> 0:19:46.716 more critical about the relationship rather than that it's it 0:19:46.836 --> 0:19:49.036 is still the miracle machine that it was depicted as 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:53.236 being in the rosy, good old Dask Miracle machines need 0:19:53.476 --> 0:19:56.596 a lot of tending and repair and care. They don't 0:19:56.596 --> 0:19:59.356 always get them right. I think, you know, we'll stand 0:19:59.396 --> 0:20:02.916 back with enough distance and see what things got done 0:20:02.916 --> 0:20:05.796 wrong and what lessons we can learn and what things 0:20:05.876 --> 0:20:09.436 got done right. I'm thinking at a broader level, do 0:20:09.476 --> 0:20:11.396 we have the model right? And I think the model 0:20:11.556 --> 0:20:14.796 surely needs repair at many levels, but I don't think 0:20:14.796 --> 0:20:18.996 it's fundamentally wrong. I think more fundamental science is getting 0:20:19.036 --> 0:20:22.716 done in industry that's really important. I think, yes, we've 0:20:22.716 --> 0:20:27.116 seen instances where the government has engaged in denying obvious 0:20:27.196 --> 0:20:31.236 scientific facts. Not a good thing. But I don't think 0:20:31.316 --> 0:20:34.556 there's any reason to think that that's a permanent condition. 0:20:35.316 --> 0:20:38.836 I would point to a constant revision of this model. 0:20:39.036 --> 0:20:43.276 Science does not sit on its laurels. It's always edgy, 0:20:43.676 --> 0:20:46.636 and as soon as Veneva Bush laid out his early model, 0:20:47.156 --> 0:20:51.036 there were efforts to rethink it and change it. If 0:20:51.036 --> 0:20:52.836 you ask me, do I think we're in for a 0:20:52.916 --> 0:20:57.876 period when there's both enormous need an enormous opportunity to 0:20:58.036 --> 0:21:03.596 rethink those things. Yes, absolutely. But the fundamental idea that 0:21:04.156 --> 0:21:07.396 this is one of the great engines of producing progress 0:21:07.476 --> 0:21:10.836 for society I very much agree with, and that makes 0:21:10.836 --> 0:21:13.956 it worth the trouble of figuring out how it needs 0:21:13.956 --> 0:21:18.236 to be fixed and changed and improved. Eric, You've done 0:21:18.276 --> 0:21:21.996 something pretty unusual for someone in your August position, which 0:21:22.036 --> 0:21:25.836 is that you started a podcast, Brave New Planet, I 0:21:25.836 --> 0:21:28.796 should say for disclosure purposes, produced by Pushkin, which also 0:21:28.876 --> 0:21:32.196 produces this show. Tell me why I have to say, 0:21:32.196 --> 0:21:34.476 I mean, it's someone who's relatively new to podcasting figures. 0:21:34.516 --> 0:21:36.836 I'm learning a little bit every day, make two mistakes 0:21:36.836 --> 0:21:40.116 for every step forward. I was kind of heartened to 0:21:40.236 --> 0:21:41.756 hear that you were doing it because I know that 0:21:41.796 --> 0:21:43.396 whatever you do your due to the highest standard. And 0:21:43.396 --> 0:21:45.796 sure enough, it's a great podcast. But why why did 0:21:45.836 --> 0:21:49.236 you decide to devote significant time to that pursuit. Well, 0:21:49.436 --> 0:21:53.076 it's actually related to what we're just talking about. I 0:21:53.116 --> 0:21:57.436 really do believe in this compact between science and society, 0:21:58.076 --> 0:22:01.436 and I do think it's frayed in certain ways. And 0:22:01.516 --> 0:22:05.516 so for me, Brave New Planet, which is seven episodes 0:22:05.636 --> 0:22:08.796 that try to take on really hard problems where I 0:22:08.876 --> 0:22:12.916 don't know what the answer is, deep fakes, for example, 0:22:13.596 --> 0:22:17.396 solar geoengineering. Should we engineer the Earth's atmosphere to mitigate 0:22:17.436 --> 0:22:23.436 climate change? Lethal autonomous weapons? Should we have killer robots? Biases? 0:22:23.476 --> 0:22:27.956 And predictive algorithms? And new technology is called gene drives 0:22:27.996 --> 0:22:31.876 to reshape species in nature. And what Brave New Planet 0:22:31.956 --> 0:22:37.636 is about is smart, thoughtful, passionate people trying to grapple 0:22:37.716 --> 0:22:41.396 with what should we do? People who agree on the facts, 0:22:42.036 --> 0:22:45.916 agree on the societal goals, and then don't agree on 0:22:45.956 --> 0:22:49.716 the solutions because they're hard. Brave New Planet as the 0:22:49.756 --> 0:22:55.396 tagline utopia or dystopia. It's up to us, and I 0:22:55.436 --> 0:22:57.476 think that's right. I mean, there are gonna be a 0:22:57.476 --> 0:23:02.076 lot of consequential decisions about science and technology that if 0:23:02.076 --> 0:23:06.436 we make wise choices, could leave us a lot better off, 0:23:06.516 --> 0:23:09.036 and if we don't make wise choices could leave us 0:23:09.036 --> 0:23:12.196 a lot worsolve. Brave New Planet was an invitation for 0:23:12.236 --> 0:23:14.316 that kind of a conversation and I hope we're gonna 0:23:14.356 --> 0:23:16.996 have a lot more of it. Eric let last question, 0:23:17.076 --> 0:23:20.916 and it derives from that tagline utopia or dystopia. It's 0:23:20.956 --> 0:23:23.276 up to us. There's a theme that I sense in 0:23:23.356 --> 0:23:26.316 you are thinking about your work over the last decades 0:23:26.636 --> 0:23:28.516 and in the direction where things are going now. I 0:23:28.556 --> 0:23:32.476 see you as on the whole an extremely optimistic, positive person. 0:23:32.836 --> 0:23:34.636 But I actually wonder if that might be one of 0:23:34.636 --> 0:23:37.636 the many secrets to your extraordinary success, that you're looking 0:23:37.636 --> 0:23:39.836 optimistically and what can come next, and how change can 0:23:39.876 --> 0:23:42.196 be productive, and how institutions can be evolved to make 0:23:42.236 --> 0:23:46.316 them better. And yet that word dystopia is still lingering 0:23:46.356 --> 0:23:49.796 there as a much more potentially You're not saying it 0:23:49.796 --> 0:23:53.996 will be dystopic, but a much more potentially worrisome picture 0:23:54.436 --> 0:23:56.676 of how our world is evolving, and particularly coming out 0:23:56.716 --> 0:24:01.196 of extraordinary technological innovations, of which big data biology is 0:24:01.236 --> 0:24:05.236 only one. So how do you think about the big 0:24:05.316 --> 0:24:08.396 picture risks that we face really as a society or 0:24:08.396 --> 0:24:10.916 as a civilization, which you know, at least when you 0:24:10.956 --> 0:24:13.876 go to Silicon Valley you hear a lot of smart 0:24:13.876 --> 0:24:17.356 people with a big steak in the future, very very 0:24:17.396 --> 0:24:22.036 worried about what their technologies are capable of producing. Look, 0:24:22.076 --> 0:24:25.716 I am an optimist, but I am a very realistic optimist. 0:24:26.276 --> 0:24:30.356 I'm not Poyanna that everything works out well automatically. You 0:24:30.436 --> 0:24:33.036 have to work really hard to make sure that you 0:24:33.156 --> 0:24:39.276 get the upsides. So, as a realistic optimist, every one 0:24:39.276 --> 0:24:44.876 of the episodes of Brave New Planet starts with all 0:24:44.916 --> 0:24:47.676 of the upsides that could come from something, and then 0:24:47.796 --> 0:24:51.276 pivots part way through the show to exactly the same 0:24:51.396 --> 0:24:57.516 question what could possibly go wrong? And it then unfolds 0:24:57.636 --> 0:25:01.356 layer after layer of how things can go off the rails, 0:25:01.756 --> 0:25:05.196 and in some cases are going off the rails. I 0:25:05.356 --> 0:25:10.516 try to be just completely clear eyed. There aren't quick fixes, 0:25:11.036 --> 0:25:15.076 but we do need fixes, and so that balance is 0:25:15.076 --> 0:25:17.516 something You're right. I could not do what I do 0:25:17.916 --> 0:25:22.316 without being deeply optimistic, and I couldn't do it responsibly 0:25:22.956 --> 0:25:27.356 without being deeply realistic. Eric. Thank you for the extraordinary 0:25:27.356 --> 0:25:29.156 work that you have been doing, that you're still doing, 0:25:29.236 --> 0:25:30.996 that you're going to continue to do. And thanks for 0:25:31.076 --> 0:25:33.196 coming in talking about it with me on deep background. 0:25:33.236 --> 0:25:42.276