WEBVTT - Happy Valley Plot Twist? 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:05.720 If you thought four hours a day, minutes a week 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.280 was enough, I think again. He's the last remnants of 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.920 the old republic, a sole fashion of fairness. He treats 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.800 crackheads in the ghetto cutter the same as the rich 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:20.240 pill poppers in the penthouse, to clearing house of hot takes, 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:24.080 break free for something special. The Fifth Hour with Ben 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:34.520 Maller starts right now in the air everywhere the weekend 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.200 has begun. Welcome in. It is a fresh, piping hot 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:42.560 edition of The Fifth Hour with Ben Mallard. Because four 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:47.080 hours a night are not enough. On the overnight, we 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.880 do this eight days a week, and you know the drill. 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:54.920 On Fridays in the Magic Podcast Studio and a secret 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.800 location somewhere in the north Woods, we like to have 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.360 a conversation on the Fifth Hour and bring people in 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:05.840 who are interesting, fascinating, rivet ng And we have one 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:09.240 of those type figures today. We welcome in a man 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:15.000 who is a social media foot soldier. He's a political columnist. 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:17.639 He is an old talk show host. I first heard 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:22.520 this particular person back in the day at KFI in 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.399 l A as a talk show hosted a talk show 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.080 at night, and I said this guy is good. I 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:32.319 like this guy. I like his passion, his enthusiasm, the 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.880 way he approaches talk radio. I really enjoyed that. And 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.319 he moved on and he has done a bunch of 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.679 documentaries and written political columns. So let's welcome in now, 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.360 John Ziegler. He's noticed the Penn State guy. We are 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:49.560 going to get to that, John, the Penn State stuff, 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.800 but let's start with you and the fact that you 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.360 originally got into the media business as a sports guy 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:02.480 and then you made the quantum leap who firebrand political pundit. 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:07.440 How did that happen? Well, Um, I've done a lot 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.000 of things in a very mediocre fashion in my media career. 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:16.040 I began as a TV sportscaster. My first on air 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:20.600 job was in Steubenville, Ohio, Wheeling, West Virginia, back in 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.360 the early nineties at w t o v TV, the 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.840 NBC affiliate, where I was a sports anchor reporter. And 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.560 then I went and did that at the Fox affiliate 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:35.720 in Raleigh, North Carolina, and Um, I realized a couple 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.239 of things. That one that my rather controversial, outspoken nature 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.720 was not really suited for network sportscasting, so I went 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.160 into talk radio and that's what eventually led me to 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:49.799 here in Los Angeles and the KFI, which at the 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.639 time was the number one talk station in the country. 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.400 And then after that, UM, I started get into documentary 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.760 films and more I guess you would call an investigative 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:04.799 journe realism and commentary and column writing and and so 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:06.320 that's where I am today. So I've done a lot 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.280 of different things, um, none of which in a particularly 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.720 spectacular fashion, but it's been interesting. Well, I enjoyed. John. 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:17.320 You've been very outspoken about the zeitgeist of the times, 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.760 with you know, doing sports radio. We had no sports 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.560 last year, everything was shut down. Sports are back, but 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.360 everything's been politicized and and all that. And you've been 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:33.000 very outspoken about all the ridiculous UM rules and regulations 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:35.720 and and is is there any end of this? I mean, 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.960 you've you've been ranting day after day about it, John, 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.200 Is there an end of the madness? Well, I have 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:45.480 to say, and someone needs to tell this story. I've 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.000 actually tried to tell this story, and I've been yet 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.320 been successful in doing so in a documentary form. But 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:57.520 I believe that sports played an intricral role, intricral in 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.040 what happened with our reaction to COVID, and it was 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:04.920 all negative, and it was all based on panic and stupidity. 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.640 And we're not getting too deeply into it. This this 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:09.200 might shock you. I don't know how much you've thought 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:11.080 about this, but I actually think that one of the 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.920 biggest decisions in the entire reaction of the pandemic, the 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.960 one that set off a remarkable domino effect from which 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:23.360 we may never recover, was when the IVY League decided 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:28.960 to cancel their basketball tournament in March of Until that happened, 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.679 we were still in the rational world. But within twenty 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:36.920 four two, two thirty six hours after that, the entire 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.640 world changed, and it changed not based on science, not 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.560 based on logic, based on the idea wall. The smart 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.680 guys of the IVY League decided that they couldn't even 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.440 have their tournament forget about this, you know, not having fans, 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.400 they couldn't even play the tournament. Uh, then we have 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.520 to do the same, and including golf, which as a golfer, 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:02.360 I will always be totally offended by how golf handled 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.160 this thing. Golf should have been a leader in showing 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:08.680 us that we can survive this, because it was perfectly 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.360 designed to do so. But because golf is seen as 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.320 a white male, conservative sport at the time tied to 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:19.560 Donald Trump, it was very politicized and they were terrified 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:21.640 that they would get destroyed if they were the only 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.960 sports still standing, so they came like everybody else, even 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.880 though to this day not one golfer has ever even 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.760 gotten sick from COVID and UH and you know, as 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.720 an outdoor sport with inherent social distancing, there was no 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.960 reason why golf should not have maintain itself. And frankly, 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.680 I think the most recent you know data would act 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.680 what we've seen with college football this year. I think 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.919 the entire notion that outdoor crowds are a threat is 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:53.960 a complete myth, and golf, especially being as outdoors that 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.119 can get I don't think could have should have even 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:01.480 at any limitations on it self based upon COVID, and 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.440 I don't think anybody would have ever been endangered by that. 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.440 So sports played an incredibly important role and how we 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:12.080 got here, and also in why it's we've been so 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.720 slow to get out of this because the woke sports 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.400 media and I don't understand this at all, and I 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:20.320 the only thing that makes any sense to me is 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.640 that it was all seen as in an election year, 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.240 as as a way to get it Donald Trump. But 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:29.479 the woke sports media went all in, all in on this, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.159 and you know, frankly, sports fans ought to be furious 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.839 at the sports media. You know, these commercials and ESPN runs, 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.320 well they say welcome back to college football, and they 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.599 celebrate the fan. What a what a load of crap? 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:48.560 That is ESPN openly campaigned for a over a year 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.160 for you not to be allowed to go see us 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:55.600 a sports event. And how they're gonna I mean so, um, 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:00.440 I really do believe that sports played an incredibly erosive 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:02.040 role here. And as far as how we get out 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:06.080 of this, the reaction to Aaron Aaron Rodgers, We're never 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.080 getting out of this, I mean, this thing is business 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:13.200 forever in some realms. I mean, college football seems to 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:17.280 be about the only place that it has mostly emerged 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.520 from this. And um, and that's again it's it's largely 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:26.320 before political reasons. It's only in the Deep South that politically, 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:30.240 you know, these institutions are able to do this. And 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.360 what's really shocking and usibly my last point before right 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:37.680 shut up, I honestly thought that when you know, a 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:42.240 good number of sports teams started to get back to normal, 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.680 and they did so without incident that everyone else would follow. 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.000 But that really hasn't been the case because, I guess 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:51.720 because we're now living in a world where you have 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.800 to signal your virtue by continuing with these restrictions, and 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.520 if you don't, in certain areas, you're considered to be 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.400 bad people, even though it has absolutely no science. Find 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.480 it well, and John, it really is. And you brought 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.720 up the South and that whole thing that the Dodgers, 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.160 I was just some Dodger playoff games. They're playing the 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:13.120 Atlanta Braves in the NLCS and and it's a totally 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:16.560 different world in Atlanta going to a Major League Baseball 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.360 game than Los Angeles. And and the Dodgers when they 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.560 opened it up and they allowed people to to not 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.760 wear masks, that lasted for a little while, and then 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:28.920 you know, the politicians got involved in no, you gotta 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.120 you gotta put the mass on. And of course, you know, 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.280 being out there, John, it was mostly people to enter 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.040 the stadium, you had to have the mask on. And 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.760 then after that people pretty much did what people do 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.520 and they took the mask off. And and live their 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.559 life well to that point. I actually think that that 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:49.679 college football, especially is the ultimate proof that most people 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.560 don't really believe in masks, because if they did. Let's 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:58.079 pretend people really believe that masks worked, right, you wouldn't 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:00.240 you would see more than a handful of me that's 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:05.480 in a back stadium with eighty thousand people. Yeah. But 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.720 but but it's all about the politics. It's all about 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.079 peer pressure. And when people are in a situation where 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.959 the non maskers have control, they don't bother the mask 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.559 because they feel no compulsion to do so, because they 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.400 don't really believe in the science of it. They're just 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.320 going along because they don't want to win yelling at them. 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:28.760 That's what this is about and and the mask. But 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.720 I am positive, I am positive that masks do nothing 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:37.560 to hinder the spread of COVID. Now, now I've I've 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.000 I've mentioned this and I've seen some of the data 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:44.080 you've you've been outspoken about. Explain to the person listening now, 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.120 because when I've said this in the past, I've gotten 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.200 some pushback. So explain. You've actually seen the same numbers 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.920 you've seen, probably more numbers than I've seen that there 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.360 is no correlation, right that it is pretty much for 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.440 theatrics to wear the mask for the most part, for 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.760 most people. Right well, from every single angle, the mask 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:05.840 the pro mask narrative makes no sense. First of all, 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:11.320 before COVID, we had tons of studies on masks and 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.200 the flu, which is the same type of virus as 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.160 COVID is. It's not in most of the the cases, is 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.040 not as bad, but it's the same. It's talking about 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.640 the same animal. Here there are There were about a 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:27.320 dozen studies Donne in the previous decade about masks and 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:32.360 the flu. Not one of them showed any real impact 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.600 of masks. And that was before this became politicized. This 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:37.800 is why Dr Fauci said at the beginning of this 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.120 whole thing, don't bother wearing a mask. Now he's completely 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.480 lied about why he said that and what he said, 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.600 and but that was the conventional wisdom before COVID. Let's 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:53.080 under let's understand why that changed. It changed not because 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.160 the science came in, not because because we suddenly had 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.120 new data and here we have unprecedented amounts of data 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.160 we've never had before over the last nineteen months. It 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:07.000 changed because liberals in this country have changed. Now I'm 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:10.000 not talking about Asia. Asia is completely different culturally, and 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.640 Asia has been misinterpreted. But in this country, the mass 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:18.600 became popular among the left as a virtue signal against 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:23.080 Trump and a security blanket, that's what it was. And 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.920 once they become deeply invested in that, there's no going back, 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:32.920 deep emotional investment. And I'm a big believer, been huge believer, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:34.760 And I assume we're gonna get to this with regard 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:36.679 to the Penn State case, which is a classic example 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:41.439 of this, when when if something is true, then you 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.000 must look at what you would expect to happen if 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.560 that was true. And here we have this unprecedented amount 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.080 of data for nineteen months. We've never done data like 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.480 this ever before. So if mass actually worked, there would 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.839 be O. J. Simpson level evidence of it by now 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:05.959 O J. Simpson. Instead, there's nothing, nothing, there's and and frankly, 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.319 here in southern California we have the best example of it. 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:13.040 If you chart the rate of spread in Los Angeles 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.520 County versus Orange County, which is are obviously butted against 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:20.520 each other sat climate, you know the same basic everything. 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.439 L A is a mass capital of the of the country. 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.360 Orange County currently has no mash mandate. No one's wearing 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.760 masks there. From the beginning, no one wore masks as 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:32.880 much in Orange County as they did in l A County, 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:37.360 caause Orange County is much less liberal. The chart is 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.480 identical except for one thing. The case right in Orange 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.000 County is always a little bit less than that of 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:48.280 Los Angeles County, but it could not be more identical, 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.400 which shows me that this whole thing, I actually believe 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.600 what we do has very little impact over the spread 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.920 of the virus. I think it's partially seasonal. I think 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:03.760 it's parsonal. Actually luck or bad luck. The whole notion 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:08.560 that we have have control over a virus is a fantasy. Uh, 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:13.280 it's the idea that man can control nature. And and frankly, 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.520 so much of this is as a result of liberal insanity. 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.840 And you know, I'm I'm not a Trump guy. I mean, 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:20.760 I'm a conservative, but I'm not a Trump guy. And 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.520 I just I just think so much of this was 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.840 in reaction to liberals losing their minds in an election 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.200 year when Donald Trump was was president well, and John 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.559 the thing too about the last year and a half, 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.920 the follow the science mantra which we hear so often 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.079 in and I learned when I was in school that 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.360 you know, there science is just people disagreeing. So it 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.440 has totally become politicized. And you know, on both sides, 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.120 people pick what they want and what they believe in, 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.840 and they you can it's like doctor shopping, right, John. 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:56.840 You find a scientist that will tell you what you 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.160 want and then you just go with it. Science has 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.760 become so politicized, and I find this to be a tragic, 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.640 and it's so it's really a weapon. Follow the science 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.640 is a weapon of the left. It's basically shut up. Uh, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.000 you know, we we don't have the proof to back 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.120 up our side, so we're just gonna rely on well 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.120 all the scientists, say well, what what's the motivation of 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.960 all the scientists? And again there's a relationship to this 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.960 what happened at the Penn State when when all the 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.560 experts are saying one thing on a controversial topic, nobody 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.160 wants to go outside of that herd because if they 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.040 go outside of that herd on a big topic, we're 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.560 gonna get run over because there's an incentive of the 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.880 herd to not have anyone embarrassed them. And you know 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.280 this is a my My grandfather was a rather well 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.200 known rocket scientist for the United States. Came over from 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.600 Germany and Operation paper Clip, and his claim to fame 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:55.080 was actually with regard to our first satellite in space. 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:57.680 He told the Navy there was no gnass of the 0:14:57.680 --> 0:14:59.120 time he was working for the Army. He told the 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.320 Navy that they were full the crap when it came 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:02.760 to the way they were going to try to power 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.080 our first satellite, and he fought like hell to put 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:10.640 these things called solar panels on and they laughed at him. Well, 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.760 within a few hours of our first satellite turned out 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:15.920 the Navy was wrong, he was right. And the rest 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:20.840 is history. I mean so unpopular positions throughout it, throughout 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.320 the history of science have always turned out that are 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.720 not always turned out, but often turned out to be 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.160 the right way to go. And group think is always 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.600 very dangerous and we have seen it here. And it's 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:38.720 not about science. It's about politics, pure politics, not just 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.160 the Democrat and Republican type of politics, but the politics 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.240 of people who are within the science community. No one 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.240 wants to lose their position in the cool kids table 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.280 at school, that's what this is about. Be sure to 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.120 catch live editions of The Ben Meller Show weekdays at 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.920 two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports Radio 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:03.400 and the Radio. Well and also, John, it seems like 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.400 you're on Twitter a lot, and I'm in their affair 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.320 amount It's like that has so much power now, and 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.800 you mentioned the group think, and you know, everyone wants 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:13.600 to be involved with the cool kids and all that, 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.960 but the the Twitter ROTI the wocaati that all get 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.040 together on on Twitter, and and the media companies. You've 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.680 been in the media business your your entire life. Here 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:28.080 the amount of power that the algorithms have on what 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:32.160 the news of the day is is insane and is 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.320 here's another one of those questions, John, where I look 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.040 at that and I've seen some of the studies about 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:41.760 how how few people actually provide content the Twitter based 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.080 on the amount of people you know, in America, for example, 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.720 here we talked about, you know, many people actually contribute. 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:49.040 There's a lot of people that are on there that 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:53.040 don't actually add to the conversation. But media companies, and 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.840 you know, I work for you one in particular, and 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.480 and the some other big ones, they just whatever Twitter 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.520 says that goal with it, like that's the gospel. Is 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.560 there any getting back from that? They've given so much power. 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.040 I couldn't agree with you more that Twitter has extraordinarily 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:14.280 outsized power in driving the narrative. And you know, especially 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:18.600 now that Trump has gone from Twitter, and I'm assuming 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:22.439 many of his supporters are too, It's it is unbelievable. 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.719 I mean, they have a stranglehold on the narrative of Twitter. 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:31.160 And you know, media members love Twitter. Why because it's 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.240 one of the few places well, frankly, all comes down 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.480 to this. On Twitter, especially woke media members can get 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.199 lots of affirmation and love at any moment. All they 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.600 have to do is tweet out some you know, some 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.680 PC bullcrap and they're gonna get thousands of bread tweets 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:54.159 and they will get affirmation and love. And that's what 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.840 they want. And on Twitter, the media because they're all 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:58.560 got blue check marks. I mean, how even I have 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.399 a blue checkmark? The the that's this is a place 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:06.160 where they are deemed to be important people and they 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.719 get respect and their opinion is deemed matter and so 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.800 this is why they love it, and therefore they publicize 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.160 it more and it becomes you know, the symbiotic relationship. 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.959 And I think you're exactly right that the number of 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.639 people that are actually driving this as a percentage of 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:27.199 the population is minuscule, which is why we see, you know, 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:32.240 the election results in Virginia last week be so completely 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.359 different than you know what the world the Twitter would 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:38.879 have indicated. Yeah, and I use the analogy, you know, 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.919 dealing with Twitter, mostly in the sports world, but just 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:44.040 in general, it's like the matrix. You don't know what's 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:48.560 real and what's not, and you know, you the algorithms, 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.280 the bots that are on there. It is a wild 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:56.600 world in that space. And yet again, the major media 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:00.080 companies love it. And as you said, the meat you 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.840 people like it too. Well. It's easy also, right, Uh. 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:05.520 As a reporter, if you needed to get feedback from 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:07.680 somebody for a story, a quote for a story, you'd 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:09.760 have to go out and chase people down. Now you 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.520 can just go on Twitter on your phone and get 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.119 comments from random people and put that in your story 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.040 and boom, you're done. Right, You're you're good to go. 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:19.520 You can wash your hands with it and move on 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.480 to the next one. So uh, yeah, I wanted to 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.880 move over that now I love documentaries, John, I am 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.159 obsessed with documentaries. I love that you're making documentaries. You 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.639 but this Penn State story, which you have been all 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:38.240 over and you talked about your past, But why this story? 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.399 You are known as the Pen Steak Guy. I was 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:41.600 talking to a friend of mine and I I said, I'm 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.920 gonna have John Zigler on the on the podcast. Oh 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.920 he's the Penn Steak guy. You're the Penn Steak Guy. John. 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:48.800 You've become that you've been all over this story for 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.919 ten years. Uh. While you know most other people have 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.119 moved on, you have stuck with it. You've got a 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.000 podcast that you've done, You've written a number of stories. 0:19:57.200 --> 0:19:58.720 One of the reasons I wanted to have you on here, 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:03.200 and your latest alumn you wrote about your experience ten 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.280 years almost You have been all over the Penn State 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.600 story and you have a very unpopular opinion for a 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.480 lot of people that they don't want to hear what 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.480 you have to say about this because it goes against 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.920 everything that was reported ten years ago. But for those 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.520 that don't know, maybe the one or two people listening 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.080 that don't know the back store in this, John, explain 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.560 how you fell down this rabbit hole with Penn State. 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:32.560 It's crazy. Um, this is the most extraordinary experience of 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.119 my life and career. In many ways, it has been 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:39.000 the most interesting. It's also been the most excruciating. It's 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.720 been the best work of my career. But it's also 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:43.960 something that I wish I had never done. And I 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.200 think it tells a lot about the times in which 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.639 we live, which is why this story is way bigger 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.960 than just the Penn State scandal. Obviously, what people know 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.320 is that Jerry Zandowski was arrested on child sex abuse charges, 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.200 and then a few days later, ten years ago this week, 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:02.840 Joe Paterno was fired on a cell phone just before 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.000 his last home game to Stetory. Had become the winner's 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:08.000 coach and history of college football. The president university, Grand Spaniard, 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:12.720 was also fired. Two Pence State administrators were effectively also fired, 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.080 and they were charged. The three administrators ended up going 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.879 to jail for two months. Jerry Sandusky is still in 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:23.000 jail and almost certainly will die in jail. And I 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.640 have no connection Defense State. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia, 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:29.119 not really that close to State College, but I was 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:32.679 a Notre Dame fan growing up I went to Georgetown University, 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:35.679 but I know the news media better than anybody on 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.960 the planet, especially now. Even back in two thousand eleven, 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:41.520 I knew the news media very well, and I knew 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.680 that this was the case, that they were extraordinarily vulnerable, 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.639 especially under the perfect storm circumstances in the middle of 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.359 a moral panic of blowing. I also have an extraordinary 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:54.560 BS detector. And this story never made a damn bit 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.639 of sense, not from the Sandosky perspective. I did not 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.680 go into this thinking, all right, Jerry Sandusky must be innocent. 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.520 I'm gonna I'm gonna exonerate Jerry Sandusky. That was the 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.879 first thing from my mind. I was talking about the 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:09.840 Joe paternal angle on this. It made no sense and 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:15.080 it's a completely nonsensical story for anybody who understands sports. 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:17.479 I mean, I had coached high school football in two 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:19.800 different states, covered college and pro football at a very 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.199 high level. I know the culture of football, I know 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.919 the culture of Penn State that I frankly, just from 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:31.520 a human perspective, none of this story made any damn sense. 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:33.320 Now that doesn't mean it doesn't true. You know, j 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:35.240 doesn't make any sense that though j Simpson would kill 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.119 two people, but there's a ton of evidence though j 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:41.280 Simpson killed two people, ton of it, and there was 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.359 no evidence here that made any sense. And so I 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:46.800 started getting involved, and at first it was from the 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.320 perspective of Joe Paterno, and it was became very obvious, 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.159 very early that that the idea of that Joe paternal 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.919 participated in the cover up for Jerry Sonduski was absurd, 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:59.080