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Speaker 1: If you thought four hours a day, minutes a week

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Speaker 1: was enough, I think again. He's the last remnants of

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Speaker 1: the old republic, a sole fashion of fairness. He treats

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Speaker 1: crackheads in the ghetto cutter the same as the rich

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Speaker 1: pill poppers in the penthouse, to clearing house of hot takes,

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Speaker 1: break free for something special. The Fifth Hour with Ben

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Speaker 1: Maller starts right now in the air everywhere the weekend

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Speaker 1: has begun. Welcome in. It is a fresh, piping hot

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Speaker 1: edition of The Fifth Hour with Ben Mallard. Because four

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Speaker 1: hours a night are not enough. On the overnight, we

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Speaker 1: do this eight days a week, and you know the drill.

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Speaker 1: On Fridays in the Magic Podcast Studio and a secret

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Speaker 1: location somewhere in the north Woods, we like to have

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Speaker 1: a conversation on the Fifth Hour and bring people in

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Speaker 1: who are interesting, fascinating, rivet ng And we have one

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Speaker 1: of those type figures today. We welcome in a man

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Speaker 1: who is a social media foot soldier. He's a political columnist.

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Speaker 1: He is an old talk show host. I first heard

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Speaker 1: this particular person back in the day at KFI in

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Speaker 1: l A as a talk show hosted a talk show

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Speaker 1: at night, and I said this guy is good. I

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Speaker 1: like this guy. I like his passion, his enthusiasm, the

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Speaker 1: way he approaches talk radio. I really enjoyed that. And

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Speaker 1: he moved on and he has done a bunch of

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Speaker 1: documentaries and written political columns. So let's welcome in now,

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Speaker 1: John Ziegler. He's noticed the Penn State guy. We are

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Speaker 1: going to get to that, John, the Penn State stuff,

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Speaker 1: but let's start with you and the fact that you

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Speaker 1: originally got into the media business as a sports guy

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Speaker 1: and then you made the quantum leap who firebrand political pundit.

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Speaker 1: How did that happen? Well, Um, I've done a lot

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Speaker 1: of things in a very mediocre fashion in my media career.

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Speaker 1: I began as a TV sportscaster. My first on air

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Speaker 1: job was in Steubenville, Ohio, Wheeling, West Virginia, back in

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Speaker 1: the early nineties at w t o v TV, the

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Speaker 1: NBC affiliate, where I was a sports anchor reporter. And

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Speaker 1: then I went and did that at the Fox affiliate

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Speaker 1: in Raleigh, North Carolina, and Um, I realized a couple

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Speaker 1: of things. That one that my rather controversial, outspoken nature

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Speaker 1: was not really suited for network sportscasting, so I went

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Speaker 1: into talk radio and that's what eventually led me to

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Speaker 1: here in Los Angeles and the KFI, which at the

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Speaker 1: time was the number one talk station in the country.

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Speaker 1: And then after that, UM, I started get into documentary

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Speaker 1: films and more I guess you would call an investigative

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Speaker 1: journe realism and commentary and column writing and and so

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Speaker 1: that's where I am today. So I've done a lot

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Speaker 1: of different things, um, none of which in a particularly

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Speaker 1: spectacular fashion, but it's been interesting. Well, I enjoyed. John.

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Speaker 1: You've been very outspoken about the zeitgeist of the times,

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Speaker 1: with you know, doing sports radio. We had no sports

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Speaker 1: last year, everything was shut down. Sports are back, but

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Speaker 1: everything's been politicized and and all that. And you've been

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Speaker 1: very outspoken about all the ridiculous UM rules and regulations

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Speaker 1: and and is is there any end of this? I mean,

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Speaker 1: you've you've been ranting day after day about it, John,

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Speaker 1: Is there an end of the madness? Well, I have

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Speaker 1: to say, and someone needs to tell this story. I've

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Speaker 1: actually tried to tell this story, and I've been yet

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Speaker 1: been successful in doing so in a documentary form. But

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Speaker 1: I believe that sports played an intricral role, intricral in

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Speaker 1: what happened with our reaction to COVID, and it was

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Speaker 1: all negative, and it was all based on panic and stupidity.

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Speaker 1: And we're not getting too deeply into it. This this

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Speaker 1: might shock you. I don't know how much you've thought

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Speaker 1: about this, but I actually think that one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest decisions in the entire reaction of the pandemic, the

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Speaker 1: one that set off a remarkable domino effect from which

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Speaker 1: we may never recover, was when the IVY League decided

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Speaker 1: to cancel their basketball tournament in March of Until that happened,

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Speaker 1: we were still in the rational world. But within twenty

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Speaker 1: four two, two thirty six hours after that, the entire

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Speaker 1: world changed, and it changed not based on science, not

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Speaker 1: based on logic, based on the idea wall. The smart

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Speaker 1: guys of the IVY League decided that they couldn't even

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Speaker 1: have their tournament forget about this, you know, not having fans,

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Speaker 1: they couldn't even play the tournament. Uh, then we have

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Speaker 1: to do the same, and including golf, which as a golfer,

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Speaker 1: I will always be totally offended by how golf handled

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Speaker 1: this thing. Golf should have been a leader in showing

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Speaker 1: us that we can survive this, because it was perfectly

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Speaker 1: designed to do so. But because golf is seen as

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Speaker 1: a white male, conservative sport at the time tied to

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, it was very politicized and they were terrified

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Speaker 1: that they would get destroyed if they were the only

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Speaker 1: sports still standing, so they came like everybody else, even

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Speaker 1: though to this day not one golfer has ever even

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Speaker 1: gotten sick from COVID and UH and you know, as

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Speaker 1: an outdoor sport with inherent social distancing, there was no

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Speaker 1: reason why golf should not have maintain itself. And frankly,

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Speaker 1: I think the most recent you know data would act

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Speaker 1: what we've seen with college football this year. I think

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Speaker 1: the entire notion that outdoor crowds are a threat is

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Speaker 1: a complete myth, and golf, especially being as outdoors that

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Speaker 1: can get I don't think could have should have even

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Speaker 1: at any limitations on it self based upon COVID, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think anybody would have ever been endangered by that.

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Speaker 1: So sports played an incredibly important role and how we

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Speaker 1: got here, and also in why it's we've been so

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Speaker 1: slow to get out of this because the woke sports

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Speaker 1: media and I don't understand this at all, and I

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Speaker 1: the only thing that makes any sense to me is

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Speaker 1: that it was all seen as in an election year,

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Speaker 1: as as a way to get it Donald Trump. But

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Speaker 1: the woke sports media went all in, all in on this,

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Speaker 1: and you know, frankly, sports fans ought to be furious

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Speaker 1: at the sports media. You know, these commercials and ESPN runs,

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Speaker 1: well they say welcome back to college football, and they

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Speaker 1: celebrate the fan. What a what a load of crap?

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Speaker 1: That is ESPN openly campaigned for a over a year

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Speaker 1: for you not to be allowed to go see us

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Speaker 1: a sports event. And how they're gonna I mean so, um,

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Speaker 1: I really do believe that sports played an incredibly erosive

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Speaker 1: role here. And as far as how we get out

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Speaker 1: of this, the reaction to Aaron Aaron Rodgers, We're never

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Speaker 1: getting out of this, I mean, this thing is business

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Speaker 1: forever in some realms. I mean, college football seems to

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Speaker 1: be about the only place that it has mostly emerged

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Speaker 1: from this. And um, and that's again it's it's largely

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Speaker 1: before political reasons. It's only in the Deep South that politically,

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Speaker 1: you know, these institutions are able to do this. And

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Speaker 1: what's really shocking and usibly my last point before right

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Speaker 1: shut up, I honestly thought that when you know, a

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Speaker 1: good number of sports teams started to get back to normal,

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Speaker 1: and they did so without incident that everyone else would follow.

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Speaker 1: But that really hasn't been the case because, I guess

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Speaker 1: because we're now living in a world where you have

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Speaker 1: to signal your virtue by continuing with these restrictions, and

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Speaker 1: if you don't, in certain areas, you're considered to be

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Speaker 1: bad people, even though it has absolutely no science. Find

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Speaker 1: it well, and John, it really is. And you brought

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Speaker 1: up the South and that whole thing that the Dodgers,

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Speaker 1: I was just some Dodger playoff games. They're playing the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Braves in the NLCS and and it's a totally

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Speaker 1: different world in Atlanta going to a Major League Baseball

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Speaker 1: game than Los Angeles. And and the Dodgers when they

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Speaker 1: opened it up and they allowed people to to not

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Speaker 1: wear masks, that lasted for a little while, and then

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Speaker 1: you know, the politicians got involved in no, you gotta

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Speaker 1: you gotta put the mass on. And of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: being out there, John, it was mostly people to enter

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Speaker 1: the stadium, you had to have the mask on. And

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Speaker 1: then after that people pretty much did what people do

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Speaker 1: and they took the mask off. And and live their

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Speaker 1: life well to that point. I actually think that that

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Speaker 1: college football, especially is the ultimate proof that most people

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Speaker 1: don't really believe in masks, because if they did. Let's

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Speaker 1: pretend people really believe that masks worked, right, you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: you would see more than a handful of me that's

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Speaker 1: in a back stadium with eighty thousand people. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: but but it's all about the politics. It's all about

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Speaker 1: peer pressure. And when people are in a situation where

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Speaker 1: the non maskers have control, they don't bother the mask

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Speaker 1: because they feel no compulsion to do so, because they

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Speaker 1: don't really believe in the science of it. They're just

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Speaker 1: going along because they don't want to win yelling at them.

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Speaker 1: That's what this is about and and the mask. But

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Speaker 1: I am positive, I am positive that masks do nothing

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Speaker 1: to hinder the spread of COVID. Now, now I've I've

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Speaker 1: I've mentioned this and I've seen some of the data

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Speaker 1: you've you've been outspoken about. Explain to the person listening now,

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Speaker 1: because when I've said this in the past, I've gotten

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Speaker 1: some pushback. So explain. You've actually seen the same numbers

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Speaker 1: you've seen, probably more numbers than I've seen that there

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Speaker 1: is no correlation, right that it is pretty much for

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Speaker 1: theatrics to wear the mask for the most part, for

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Speaker 1: most people. Right well, from every single angle, the mask

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Speaker 1: the pro mask narrative makes no sense. First of all,

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Speaker 1: before COVID, we had tons of studies on masks and

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Speaker 1: the flu, which is the same type of virus as

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Speaker 1: COVID is. It's not in most of the the cases, is

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Speaker 1: not as bad, but it's the same. It's talking about

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Speaker 1: the same animal. Here there are There were about a

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Speaker 1: dozen studies Donne in the previous decade about masks and

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Speaker 1: the flu. Not one of them showed any real impact

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Speaker 1: of masks. And that was before this became politicized. This

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Speaker 1: is why Dr Fauci said at the beginning of this

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Speaker 1: whole thing, don't bother wearing a mask. Now he's completely

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Speaker 1: lied about why he said that and what he said,

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Speaker 1: and but that was the conventional wisdom before COVID. Let's

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Speaker 1: under let's understand why that changed. It changed not because

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Speaker 1: the science came in, not because because we suddenly had

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Speaker 1: new data and here we have unprecedented amounts of data

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Speaker 1: we've never had before over the last nineteen months. It

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Speaker 1: changed because liberals in this country have changed. Now I'm

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Speaker 1: not talking about Asia. Asia is completely different culturally, and

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Speaker 1: Asia has been misinterpreted. But in this country, the mass

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Speaker 1: became popular among the left as a virtue signal against

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Speaker 1: Trump and a security blanket, that's what it was. And

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Speaker 1: once they become deeply invested in that, there's no going back,

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Speaker 1: deep emotional investment. And I'm a big believer, been huge believer,

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Speaker 1: And I assume we're gonna get to this with regard

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Speaker 1: to the Penn State case, which is a classic example

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Speaker 1: of this, when when if something is true, then you

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Speaker 1: must look at what you would expect to happen if

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Speaker 1: that was true. And here we have this unprecedented amount

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Speaker 1: of data for nineteen months. We've never done data like

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Speaker 1: this ever before. So if mass actually worked, there would

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Speaker 1: be O. J. Simpson level evidence of it by now

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Speaker 1: O J. Simpson. Instead, there's nothing, nothing, there's and and frankly,

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Speaker 1: here in southern California we have the best example of it.

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Speaker 1: If you chart the rate of spread in Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: County versus Orange County, which is are obviously butted against

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Speaker 1: each other sat climate, you know the same basic everything.

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Speaker 1: L A is a mass capital of the of the country.

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Speaker 1: Orange County currently has no mash mandate. No one's wearing

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Speaker 1: masks there. From the beginning, no one wore masks as

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Speaker 1: much in Orange County as they did in l A County,

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Speaker 1: caause Orange County is much less liberal. The chart is

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Speaker 1: identical except for one thing. The case right in Orange

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Speaker 1: County is always a little bit less than that of

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles County, but it could not be more identical,

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Speaker 1: which shows me that this whole thing, I actually believe

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Speaker 1: what we do has very little impact over the spread

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Speaker 1: of the virus. I think it's partially seasonal. I think

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Speaker 1: it's parsonal. Actually luck or bad luck. The whole notion

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Speaker 1: that we have have control over a virus is a fantasy. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's the idea that man can control nature. And and frankly,

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Speaker 1: so much of this is as a result of liberal insanity.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I'm I'm not a Trump guy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: in reaction to liberals losing their minds in an election

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Speaker 1: year when Donald Trump was was president well, and John

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Speaker 1: the thing too about the last year and a half,

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Speaker 1: you know, there science is just people disagreeing. So it

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Speaker 1: has totally become politicized. And you know, on both sides,

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Speaker 1: and they you can it's like doctor shopping, right, John.

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Speaker 1: You find a scientist that will tell you what you

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Speaker 1: and it's so it's really a weapon. Follow the science

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Speaker 1: is a weapon of the left. It's basically shut up. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we don't have the proof to back

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Speaker 1: up our side, so we're just gonna rely on well

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Speaker 1: all the scientists, say well, what what's the motivation of

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Speaker 1: all the scientists? And again there's a relationship to this

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Speaker 1: what happened at the Penn State when when all the

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Speaker 1: experts are saying one thing on a controversial topic, nobody

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Speaker 1: wants to go outside of that herd because if they

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Speaker 1: this is a my My grandfather was a rather well

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Speaker 1: known rocket scientist for the United States. Came over from

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Speaker 1: Germany and Operation paper Clip, and his claim to fame

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Speaker 1: was actually with regard to our first satellite in space.

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Speaker 1: He told the Navy there was no gnass of the

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Speaker 1: time he was working for the Army. He told the

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Speaker 1: our first satellite, and he fought like hell to put

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Speaker 1: these things called solar panels on and they laughed at him. Well,

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Speaker 1: within a few hours of our first satellite turned out

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Speaker 1: the Navy was wrong, he was right. And the rest

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Speaker 1: is history. I mean so unpopular positions throughout it, throughout

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Speaker 1: the history of science have always turned out that are

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Speaker 1: not always turned out, but often turned out to be

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Speaker 1: the right way to go. And group think is always

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Speaker 1: very dangerous and we have seen it here. And it's

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Speaker 1: not about science. It's about politics, pure politics, not just

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Speaker 1: the Democrat and Republican type of politics, but the politics

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Speaker 1: of people who are within the science community. No one

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Speaker 1: wants to lose their position in the cool kids table

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Speaker 1: at school, that's what this is about. Be sure to

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Speaker 1: catch live editions of The Ben Meller Show weekdays at

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Speaker 1: two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports Radio

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Speaker 1: and the Radio. Well and also, John, it seems like

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Speaker 1: you're on Twitter a lot, and I'm in their affair

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Speaker 1: amount It's like that has so much power now, and

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the group think, and you know, everyone wants

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Speaker 1: to be involved with the cool kids and all that,

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Speaker 1: but the the Twitter ROTI the wocaati that all get

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Speaker 1: together on on Twitter, and and the media companies. You've

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Speaker 1: been in the media business your your entire life. Here

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Speaker 1: the amount of power that the algorithms have on what

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Speaker 1: the news of the day is is insane and is

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Speaker 1: here's another one of those questions, John, where I look

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Speaker 1: at that and I've seen some of the studies about

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Speaker 1: how how few people actually provide content the Twitter based

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Speaker 1: on the amount of people you know, in America, for example,

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Speaker 1: here we talked about, you know, many people actually contribute.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of people that are on there that

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Speaker 1: don't actually add to the conversation. But media companies, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I work for you one in particular, and

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Speaker 1: and the some other big ones, they just whatever Twitter

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Speaker 1: says that goal with it, like that's the gospel. Is

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Speaker 1: there any getting back from that? They've given so much power.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more that Twitter has extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: outsized power in driving the narrative. And you know, especially

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Speaker 1: now that Trump has gone from Twitter, and I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: many of his supporters are too, It's it is unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they have a stranglehold on the narrative of Twitter.

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Speaker 1: And you know, media members love Twitter. Why because it's

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Speaker 1: one of the few places well, frankly, all comes down

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Speaker 1: to this. On Twitter, especially woke media members can get

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Speaker 1: lots of affirmation and love at any moment. All they

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Speaker 1: have to do is tweet out some you know, some

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Speaker 1: PC bullcrap and they're gonna get thousands of bread tweets

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Speaker 1: and they will get affirmation and love. And that's what

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Speaker 1: they want. And on Twitter, the media because they're all

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Speaker 1: got blue check marks. I mean, how even I have

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Speaker 1: a blue checkmark? The the that's this is a place

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Speaker 1: where they are deemed to be important people and they

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Speaker 1: get respect and their opinion is deemed matter and so

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Speaker 1: this is why they love it, and therefore they publicize

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Speaker 1: it more and it becomes you know, the symbiotic relationship.

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Speaker 1: And I think you're exactly right that the number of

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Speaker 1: people that are actually driving this as a percentage of

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Speaker 1: the population is minuscule, which is why we see, you know,

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Speaker 1: the election results in Virginia last week be so completely

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Speaker 1: different than you know what the world the Twitter would

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Speaker 1: have indicated. Yeah, and I use the analogy, you know,

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Speaker 1: dealing with Twitter, mostly in the sports world, but just

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Speaker 1: in general, it's like the matrix. You don't know what's

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Speaker 1: real and what's not, and you know, you the algorithms,

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Speaker 1: the bots that are on there. It is a wild

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Speaker 1: world in that space. And yet again, the major media

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Speaker 1: companies love it. And as you said, the meat you

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Speaker 1: people like it too. Well. It's easy also, right, Uh.

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Speaker 1: As a reporter, if you needed to get feedback from

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Speaker 1: somebody for a story, a quote for a story, you'd

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Speaker 1: have to go out and chase people down. Now you

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Speaker 1: can just go on Twitter on your phone and get

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Speaker 1: comments from random people and put that in your story

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Speaker 1: and boom, you're done. Right, You're you're good to go.

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Speaker 1: You can wash your hands with it and move on

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Speaker 1: to the next one. So uh, yeah, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: move over that now I love documentaries, John, I am

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Speaker 1: obsessed with documentaries. I love that you're making documentaries. You

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Speaker 1: but this Penn State story, which you have been all

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Speaker 1: over and you talked about your past, But why this story?

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Speaker 1: You are known as the Pen Steak Guy. I was

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Speaker 1: talking to a friend of mine and I I said, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna have John Zigler on the on the podcast. Oh

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Speaker 1: he's the Penn Steak guy. You're the Penn Steak Guy. John.

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Speaker 1: You've become that you've been all over this story for

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Speaker 1: ten years. Uh. While you know most other people have

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Speaker 1: moved on, you have stuck with it. You've got a

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Speaker 1: podcast that you've done, You've written a number of stories.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons I wanted to have you on here,

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Speaker 1: and your latest alumn you wrote about your experience ten

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Speaker 1: years almost You have been all over the Penn State

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Speaker 1: story and you have a very unpopular opinion for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that they don't want to hear what

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Speaker 1: you have to say about this because it goes against

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Speaker 1: everything that was reported ten years ago. But for those

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Speaker 1: that don't know, maybe the one or two people listening

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Speaker 1: that don't know the back store in this, John, explain

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Speaker 1: how you fell down this rabbit hole with Penn State.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy. Um, this is the most extraordinary experience of

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Speaker 1: my life and career. In many ways, it has been

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Speaker 1: the most interesting. It's also been the most excruciating. It's

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Speaker 1: been the best work of my career. But it's also

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Speaker 1: something that I wish I had never done. And I

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Speaker 1: think it tells a lot about the times in which

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Speaker 1: we live, which is why this story is way bigger

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Speaker 1: than just the Penn State scandal. Obviously, what people know

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Speaker 1: is that Jerry Zandowski was arrested on child sex abuse charges,

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Speaker 1: and then a few days later, ten years ago this week,

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Speaker 1: Joe Paterno was fired on a cell phone just before

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Speaker 1: his last home game to Stetory. Had become the winner's

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Speaker 1: coach and history of college football. The president university, Grand Spaniard,

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Speaker 1: was also fired. Two Pence State administrators were effectively also fired,

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Speaker 1: and they were charged. The three administrators ended up going

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Speaker 1: to jail for two months. Jerry Sandusky is still in

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Speaker 1: jail and almost certainly will die in jail. And I

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Speaker 1: have no connection Defense State. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: not really that close to State College, but I was

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Speaker 1: a Notre Dame fan growing up I went to Georgetown University,

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Speaker 1: but I know the news media better than anybody on

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Speaker 1: the planet, especially now. Even back in two thousand eleven,

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Speaker 1: I knew the news media very well, and I knew

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Speaker 1: that this was the case, that they were extraordinarily vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: especially under the perfect storm circumstances in the middle of

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Speaker 1: a moral panic of blowing. I also have an extraordinary

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Speaker 1: BS detector. And this story never made a damn bit

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Speaker 1: of sense, not from the Sandosky perspective. I did not

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Speaker 1: go into this thinking, all right, Jerry Sandusky must be innocent.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna exonerate Jerry Sandusky. That was the

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Speaker 1: first thing from my mind. I was talking about the

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Speaker 1: Joe paternal angle on this. It made no sense and

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Speaker 1: it's a completely nonsensical story for anybody who understands sports.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I had coached high school football in two

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Speaker 1: different states, covered college and pro football at a very

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Speaker 1: high level. I know the culture of football, I know

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Speaker 1: the culture of Penn State that I frankly, just from

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Speaker 1: a human perspective, none of this story made any damn sense.

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Speaker 1: Now that doesn't mean it doesn't true. You know, j

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Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense that though j Simpson would kill

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Speaker 1: two people, but there's a ton of evidence though j

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Speaker 1: Simpson killed two people, ton of it, and there was

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Speaker 1: no evidence here that made any sense. And so I

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Speaker 1: started getting involved, and at first it was from the

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Speaker 1: perspective of Joe Paterno, and it was became very obvious,

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Speaker 1: very early that that the idea of that Joe paternal

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Speaker 1: participated in the cover up for Jerry Sonduski was absurd,

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Speaker 1: completely absurd, and even the prosecutor in the case eventually

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Speaker 1: told h e oh that he didn't believe that that happened. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And the media course ignored that because they already had

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Speaker 1: their narrative and Joe Paterno was dead at that point. Long,

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Speaker 1: long story short. I kept digging and digging and digging

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Speaker 1: because Joe Paterno on his deathbed said just find out

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Speaker 1: what the truth is, and nobody seemed to be interested

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Speaker 1: in what the truth of this was. And I wanted

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Speaker 1: to find a narrative that actually had some evidence behind

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Speaker 1: it and made some damn sense, And eventually I ended

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Speaker 1: up an interviewing Jayson Dusky in prison twice for a

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Speaker 1: total of six hours. I want on the Today Show

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Speaker 1: to do high profile interviews with Matt Lawer not once,

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Speaker 1: but twice, the second one with Doddie Sandusky back in,

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Speaker 1: and eventually I became completely, totally, one hundred percent convinced,

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Speaker 1: without a shred of doubt against my own self interest.

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Speaker 1: But not only was Joe Paterno innocent, not only were

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Speaker 1: the administrators innocent, but the only way to make this

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Speaker 1: story fit at all, that make the puzzle pieces of

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Speaker 1: this story fit was that Jerry Sandusky is also innocent.

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Speaker 1: And it's not even close. And we created a podcast

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Speaker 1: called With the Benefit of Hindsight, which is an epic

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Speaker 1: journey through the real story of what really happened here.

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Speaker 1: It's twenty one episode. Is It Ends? As we just

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Speaker 1: posted a couple of days ago with a four hour

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Speaker 1: exclusive interview with the former president of the Penn State,

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Speaker 1: Graham Spaniard. We have two of the administrators who went

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Speaker 1: to jail on the podcast, both of whom make it

429
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 1: very clear that they believe that Jerry Sandusky is in

430
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: fact innocent, which is shocking and should be national news.

431
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: But the news media doesn't work that way anymore. And

432
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: the evidence that we have accumulated both in breaking down

433
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: the convention wisdom of this case and telling you what

434
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: actually really did happen is extraordinary. It's it's it's I

435
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: mean people who have no connection to me, who have

436
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: fallen on on the podcast with the benefit of hindsight,

437
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 1: I'd say we've had hundreds and hundreds of people, not

438
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: thousands of contact me to say this is the greatest

439
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: podcast they've ever heard and they don't even really have

440
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: any connection to Penn State. Uh and uh and in

441
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: it extraordinary achievement, But it's not gonna do any good

442
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: because the news media as their narrative and once they're

443
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: this invested, they're never going back. They're never going back

444
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: because they put too many chips down on this one.

445
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: Then and and and um and I'm telling you it's

446
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 1: not close. I'm telling you, But Jo, what was the moment,

447
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: because you know a lot of people might be listening

448
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: to the same What are you doing Jerry Sanduski's you know,

449
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: he molested children, He's in jail for the rest of

450
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: his life. Here, what are you saying because you talked

451
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: to him, and yet what was the thing that led you?

452
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: Was there one thing in particular other than talking to

453
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: Jerry Sandusky and his wife that we let may be clear.

454
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: Let maybe it's a great question, because I'm gonna be clear.

455
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: I didn't talk to Jerry. Sanduski gets snowed. I'm just checking.

456
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: I'm just checking John. I just want there were there

457
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: were uh two hundred data points before I even talked

458
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: to Jerry, and then there and then after I talked

459
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 1: to Jerry the first time I didn't. I went out

460
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: of the prison that day saying, oh my god, please

461
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: don't let him be innocent. Please don't let him be innocent,

462
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: because I know this is going to ruin my life,

463
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: because I know myself well enough to know I'm not

464
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: going to be level able to let this go. Because

465
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 1: I'm the only one in the position to tell this story.

466
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: I don't want this. So I spent a year trying

467
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: to prove him guilty, Ben and I couldn't do it

468
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: because there's no damn evidence and everything he told me

469
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: checked out a thousand percent. And then I got deeper

470
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: and deeper and deeper, and it's not close. This this

471
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: story is absurd, and we you asked, Okay, what was

472
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: the moment. There's so many moments, But you know, Malcolm

473
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: Gladwell wrote a book called Talking to Strangers, the best seller.

474
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: He's a very famous author and Talking to Strangers best

475
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: seller book. There's a chapter, chapter five in there, which

476
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: basically deals with my work on this case, and glad

477
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 1: Well goes right up to the precipice of saying Sandusky

478
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: is innocent, but doesn't have the courage to do so.

479
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: I think he actually changed his mind of the publisher

480
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: changed there his mind at the last minute. But one

481
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: of the key pieces of information in that chapter is

482
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 1: maybe the biggest revelation that we have found, and there's

483
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: been there's so many of these it's hard to know

484
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: for sure. But for me, this whole story starts, and

485
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: this is the first episode of our podcast with the

486
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: benefit of hindsight. It all starts with the date of

487
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: the Mike mcquerie episode. You know, to me, you're you're

488
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: gonna make an allegation as Mike mcquery did that. I

489
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: you know, I witnessed Jerryson Dusky. He's actually assaulting a

490
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: young boy in a Penn State shower. The first thing

491
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: you want to know is, Okay, when did this happen?

492
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: The vast majority of people, even media members, ben don't

493
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: know that. When he testified for the first time, and

494
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: this was reported widely ten years ago. This week he

495
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: said that this happened on March one of two thousand

496
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: and two, and that's you know, that was the date

497
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: that Joe Paterno thought this happened when he died a

498
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: couple of months after the scandal. But then very qui

499
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: lightly and the media was very diligent about covering this up.

500
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: Just before Jerry Sinowski's trial, the prosecution had to announce, um, oops, um,

501
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: Mike got the date, the month, and the year wrong,

502
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: because now we have emails that prove when he went

503
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: to go see Joe Paterno, and so now we are surmising,

504
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: based upon those emails, does this actually happened in February

505
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: February ninth of the year before two thousand one, thirteen

506
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: months before what had been widely reported. When Paterno got fired,

507
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: Spaniard got fired, all firestorms started. And my my reaction was, Woa, woa,

508
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: woo woo woo woo, woa, We're gonna put all of

509
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: this on a story that's ten years old, where we

510
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: have no accuser at this point none. The media just

511
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: ignored that part of this and where the witness this

512
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: during incredibly dramatic event. He can't tell you the date,

513
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: the month, or the year in which had happened. And

514
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: then it gets better, And this is where I made

515
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: my biggest screw up of the entire case. I should

516
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: have been able to figure out that even that second

517
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: date was wrong very early on in my investigation. But

518
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: even I felt like, there's no possible way the prosecution

519
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: could get this so wrong twice, but they did. The

520
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: second date is a fabrication. Mike mcquerie did not witnessed

521
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: this event on February ninth of two thousand one, and

522
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: then go see Joe Paterno on the next morning. That's

523
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: not what happened. He saw this, or witness this whatever.

524
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: It was a shower with a boy, and that's a

525
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: whole different story who the boy was on December twenty nine,

526
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: two thousand. I've now proven that Malcolm Gladwell believes. I've

527
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: proven that Gary Schultz, the administrator, believes. I've proven that

528
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: Grand Span of the President believes. I've proven that Jerry

529
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: Sandusky believes. I've proven that because even he couldn't remember

530
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: what the date was, he just knew that the prosecution's

531
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: date was wrong. And the reason why that's so critical,

532
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: then is it? Now there's a six week gap, six

533
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: weeks in the time that this happens, and Mike mcquery

534
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: first reports it, not to the police but to Joe

535
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: Paternal in the morning in February ten, two thousand one.

536
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: And then here's the kicker. What happened on February uh

537
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: the day before he goes to see Joe paternal Sebury nine,

538
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: two thousand one. What what might have been the trigger

539
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: for why Mike McQuary goes to see Joe paternal Not

540
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: this six weeks old witnessing of Jerry in a shower

541
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: with a boy. No, the job that Mike mcquery wanted,

542
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: the wide receiver's coaching job opens up at Penn State

543
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: when Kenny Jackson leaves Penn State to go to the

544
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh's Dealers. It's in the paper the morning of February ninth,

545
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and then, Whailah, Just by coincidence, Mike McQuary

546
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 1: goes to see Joe Paterno on February tenth. That morning.

547
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: He's not going there to tell him, oh my god, Joe,

548
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: I saw Jerry Zudoski raping a boy last night. He's

549
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: going there to see what or not he can get

550
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: the Kenny Jackson job and the oh, by the way, coach,

551
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: I saw Jerry in a in a shower with a boy.

552
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: It made me uncomfortable. You might want to talk to

553
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: him about it. That was the afterthought of what happened,

554
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: and all the evidence supports that scenario. And when the

555
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: Mike mcquery episode disintegrates into not a rape of a boy,

556
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: but of Jerry Sandusky showering after a workout with a

557
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,959
Speaker 1: thirteen year old he thought of as a son by

558
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: the name of Alan Myers, whose own testimony is very

559
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: clear that nothing bad ever happened between him and Jerry Zandusky,

560
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: then now all of a sudden, the pillar of the

561
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: case has just been disintegrated and the case falls apart

562
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: from there. And that's really the key element of this

563
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: or people to understand. Once you understand the Mike mcquery

564
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: episode was a fabrication, then you understand that the rest

565
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: of this case and in an incredible easy fashion and

566
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: a domino effect of of a perfect storm of panic

567
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: and injustice. All right, So then the question would be,

568
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: if that's the case, and you've been investigating this, why

569
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: would there not be some kind of opening up of

570
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: the case again and looking it over, because, as you said,

571
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: Jerry Sanduski is likely going to to die in in jail.

572
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: If if what you're saying is accurate and this is

573
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: all all checks out, why couldn't they go back and

574
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: open up Because that's not There's a couple of reasons. One,

575
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: that's not the way this system works. That's not the

576
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: way the legal system works. In order for Jerry Sandowski

577
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: to get a new trial, they have to prove a

578
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: constitutional issue with the due process of the first trial. Now,

579
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: in a irrational world, that would be incredibly easy. I

580
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: have to tell you, even if Jerry Sandowski was guilty,

581
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: even if he was guilty, his trial was such an

582
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: unbelievable joke that if it was not a famous case,

583
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: if there was not politics involved, a new trial would

584
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: have been a faded complete I mean, I've I've watched

585
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: a hundred date lines where people get new trials based

586
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: upon one one thousands of the due process issues that

587
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: were involved in Jerry Sandowski's trial. But here's where the

588
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: perfect storm comes in. In Pennsylvania, all the judges are elected,

589
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: and because of the politics of this case, because of

590
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: the media coverage of this case. Any judge that orders

591
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: a new trial for Jerry Sandowski is effectively ending their career,

592
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: and Jerry Sanowski's lawyer himself has been shocked time and

593
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: time again. People don't even understand Jerry is still appealing

594
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: on a regular basis that never happens in a serial

595
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: child molester case. You I would I defy anyone to

596
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: find me a serial child molester case with no pornography,

597
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: no confession, no plea bargain, and where the person who

598
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: end up getting convicted is still appealing vigorously with no money,

599
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: no political capital, ten years later. That never ever, ever,

600
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: ever happens. And the reason why it's happening in this

601
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: case is because you have an innocent man who has

602
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: no other choice. He's fighting for his life and he

603
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: doesn't understand because he's very naive that he that he

604
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: will never getting fair shake in Pennsylvania because of the

605
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: politics involved, because everyone is so deeply invested in this

606
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: fairy tale. That's why this cannot be reversed. I have

607
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: urged him, and other people close to him, including his lawyer,

608
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: have urged him to go to federal court. But if

609
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: he goes to federal court and he loses. His life

610
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: is over because now he has nothing to do, he

611
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: has nothing to focus on, he has no hope I have.

612
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: I've given this analogy to his family. I think it's

613
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: a good one. In state court, he can keep going

614
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: back and appealing basically every six months or a year.

615
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: So basically, for the rest of Jerry Sanduski's life, he

616
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: gets to run a fourth and seventy five play, you know,

617
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: every six months or a year. He's never gonna make

618
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: that fourth and seventy five, but he gets to keep trying.

619
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: If he goes to federal court, he gets one shot

620
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: at fourth and six, and if he misses the fourth

621
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: and six, his life is over. And he cannot handle

622
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: that from a psychological standpoint. So that's the answer to

623
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: your question. Be sure to catch live editions of The

624
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 1: Ben Miller Show weekdays at two a m. Eastern eleven

625
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: p m. Pacific. So, John, you've done the podcast talking

626
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: about this, You've covered it. What is next for you

627
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: on this st are you? Are you done with the

628
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: Penn State story and now has been ten years. Are

629
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: you going to continue to follow this or are you

630
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: just gonna move on to something else? What's the plan here, Well,

631
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: I still want people to listen to our podcast with

632
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: the benefit of hindsight. It's a remarkable historical document. You

633
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: don't even have to care about the Penn State case

634
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 1: to be interested in the podcast. It tells you so

635
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: much about the nature of our media, the nature of

636
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: our our system, the nature of humanity. By the way,

637
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: I've had a lot of people tell me this organical,

638
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: and I did this on purpose. I actually think you

639
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: can understand a lot about our reaction to COVID, as

640
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: I've already implied in this interview, by by listening to

641
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: this podcast. I mean, the parallels are remarkable, you know,

642
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: the the reaction to everything in a panic, the politics,

643
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: the propaganda, the emotional investment, the lack of evidence supporting

644
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: what we're doing. But there's no way to get out

645
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: of this, and there's so many comparisons, So I really

646
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: want people to check out with the benefit of hindsight.

647
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: I um fully acknowledge that that the ten year marked

648
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,919
Speaker 1: for me psychologically. I was spen pointing as the time

649
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: when I I end this for me. Um you know,

650
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 1: there there are a couple of things that were supposed

651
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: to happen on the tenth anniversary that have been delayed.

652
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: ESPN is has been planning a special I have no

653
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: faith in them at all, but those who have been

654
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: interviewed for it say that it's far more pro paternal

655
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: than anything LS ESPN has ever done before. And there's

656
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: a mainstream news media, let a print outlet that's been

657
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: investigating this case or two years from what seems to

658
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: be a very pro Jerry Zandowski perspective. For some reason,

659
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: they have not hit the tenth anniversary. So unfortunately, those

660
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: are gonna still hang over my head, as you know,

661
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: some semblance of hope that theoretically something might change, even

662
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: though I have grave skepticism about that. But I have

663
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: to tell you my experience in this case, combined with

664
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: my experience with COVID, combined with having gone through the

665
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: Trump era, I'm now at the point where I don't

666
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: even know why I bothered to be part of the

667
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: public discourse, because we're now living in a world where

668
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: truth means nothing. In fact, when I ended the documentary

669
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: film I did about the Penn State case back at

670
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, called The Framing of Joe Paternal you

671
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: can find it for free at YouTube, I end the

672
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: documentary by saying, one of these we're gonna fight out

673
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: in this case is whether or not the truth still matters?

674
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: And uh, And here we are now nine years after that,

675
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: and at least we now know the truth does not matter.

676
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: The truth does not matter in today's world. And I'm

677
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: a truth guy. I am not a you know, give

678
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: you what you want to hear for to make me

679
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: popular guy. That's what sells in the media now, the

680
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: coin of the realm, and the media used to be

681
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: mostly truth. Now it's all popularity. It's all tell people

682
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: what they want to hear. And there's there's reasons why

683
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: that happened once. I'm happy to go into if you're interested,

684
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: But the reality is that's the case. And you know,

685
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm gonna do, but there's a

686
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 1: there's a reasonable chance that in the next few weeks

687
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: or whatever, a month, you may never hear from me again.

688
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: I may just go off the grid and just say

689
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 1: screw it, because it's just it's just not worth it

690
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 1: to me. I just don't have is This has never

691
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: been a money making endeavor for me. It's not about

692
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: making a living. And now you can't even tell the

693
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: truth in any platform or forum that that makes any

694
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: difference if it doesn't fit with what the corporate media wants. Well, yeah,

695
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: and John, I mean I just to follow that up.

696
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 1: I mean, the thing we deal with it a lot

697
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: in the sports world, but in politics it's even worse.

698
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: It's tribalism, right, It's like you gotta give the give

699
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: the red meat to the people that you know need

700
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: the red meat, and not you know, not give them

701
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: anything other than that. And you know, it's it's become

702
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: even worse over the last like five ten years, it's

703
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 1: gotten completely out of the media is now all about

704
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: finding a tribe that fits you know, who you are,

705
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: and then feeding that tribe what they want. That's what

706
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: this is, which is the exact opposite of what journalism

707
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: is supposed to be. And I don't believe journalism was

708
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: ever perfect, but it was a lot better than it

709
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: is now, that's for sure. Well, you mentioned you mentioned

710
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: John and your in your column that you wrote h

711
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: the latest column about the Penn State story, and I'm

712
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: sure you mentioned this on the on the the podcast

713
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: you did that the modern media, Uh, it's it's you

714
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: compared it to the movie industry, right, the way that

715
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: they handle things in media today. Can you expand on that?

716
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: And because I I think that was a thank you,

717
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: thank you for pointing that out, because I do think

718
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: it's true. You know, movies, and I know here we

719
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: are in Los Angeles and Pensiltown, the movies, even movies

720
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: that were about true stories, they used to at least

721
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: say based on a true story, right, and now the

722
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: dramatic license has gotten so ridiculous that basically it's just

723
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: based on theoretical stuff that might have been true, probably wasn't.

724
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: But you know what makes a great story. I mean

725
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: that that's that's the new standard in Hollywood for a

726
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: supposed non fiction movie. Well, the news media is following

727
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: that model. Is all now about narrative. What's the most

728
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: compelling narrative we can find? So so we're gonna cobble

729
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 1: together these fun means what seemed to be facts. We

730
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: don't even know if they're really facts, but they're you know,

731
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: fact ish, and we're gonna cobble these together, and we're

732
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: gonna get cocked the narrative that is most salacious and

733
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: best for us in that moment. And we've seen this

734
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: constantly and you know, I think again, I'm not a

735
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: trunk guy, but I think the media did that with

736
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 1: the Trump Russia investigation. I mean, all you know, basically

737
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: Trump was a Manchurian candidate, right because they cobbled together, um,

738
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: you know, some of these things that seemed to be facts.

739
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: And I think Trump actually did some things wrong with

740
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: reguard to to Russia, but he's clearly not a Manchurian candidate.

741
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: We've seen it in so many other situations. I mean,

742
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: this keeps happening, you know. I've often said that the

743
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: Penn State cases that commonents, Like if I was pitching

744
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: in as a movie, it's basically Faraknos meets Jesse small

745
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: Act meets man Ti Teo meets Duke Lacrosse. I mean,

746
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: I mean that's basically me what it is. Um And

747
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: it keeps happening because the media falls in love with narrative,

748
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: and then once they fall in love, there's no going

749
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: back because, as we've seen with COVID, nobody ever wants

750
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: to admit they were wrong. It's amazing. I mean, I'm

751
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,959
Speaker 1: the only guy and I know that I admit I'm

752
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: wrong all the time. I frankly, as a married guy,

753
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 1: I thought that came a second nature. You admit you're

754
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: wrong constantly. I mean, but it's just amazing to me

755
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: that no one ever wants to admit that they were wrong.

756
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: We all got it wrong about Penn State, and it

757
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: created a massive injustice to destroy the lives of five

758
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: really good men, and an institution's reputation was destroyed forever,

759
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: and a lot of other people got hurt tangentially. But

760
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: this story is much bigger than that, because if it

761
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: can happen to them, it can happen to anybody. And

762
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: it shows us so much about what is wrong with

763
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: our culture. And frankly, I don't think it's gonna get

764
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 1: any better. I think it's only gonna get worse. It's

765
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: also it's also human nature, though, right, I mean, people,

766
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: you know basic marketing. I remember taking a marketing class

767
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: back in in college and they said, you gotta get

768
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: kids early. That's why the happy meal is so successful,

769
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 1: is because once somebody makes their mind up that something's

770
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: good or bad or right or wrong, they don't Nobody

771
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: wants to change their mind. But it is even worse

772
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: now than you know, at any other point I in

773
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: my life anyway, I don't know before that. But it's

774
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 1: and and there's a lot of reasons why it happened,

775
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: why it can't be fixed. But a large part of

776
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: this has to do with fragmentation of the news media.

777
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: Because we you know, back in the in the in

778
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: the era where we had four television stations and it

779
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: was a license to print money to own a newspaper

780
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: or radio station. No one needed to do this. You

781
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: didn't have to create the fictional movie. You could actually

782
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: run the real movie and it would make movie, It

783
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: would make money. You see where I'm going is you

784
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: didn't have to juice it. Now you have to juice

785
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: said because everyone is so desperate for every scrap of

786
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,720
Speaker 1: ratings they can get, because the business model is broken.

787
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: That's the heart of a problem. And um, and you know,

788
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: Penn State really was the first major story that made

789
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: this abundantly clear. You know, I will now forever, based

790
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: upon what's happened this year, I will now refer to

791
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 1: Penn State as the first let's go Brandon story. I mean,

792
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: where where the news media it didn't matter. I mean,

793
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: I I truly believe, I truly believe that to this day.

794
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 1: A couple of the major accusers in this case could

795
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: come forward, They could do an interview saying we lied

796
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: for money. Jerry Zudoski never abused us, and the media

797
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: would report that they said, let's go Brandon. That's what

798
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: they would do. That's hilarious. Hey, John, listen, I love

799
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: you for doing this man, Thank you so much. You

800
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: are I love your enthusiasm, your passion as uh as

801
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: I told you earlier, but continued success. And how can

802
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: people follow you if they want to read your column

803
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: and you've obviously made a bunch of documentaries and whatnot,

804
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: and you're all over Twitter. Yeah, the best place to

805
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: find me is on Twitter. And my Twitter feed is

806
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: is a terrible handle. It's zigmn freud z e I

807
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: g m A n freud um. Or just look up

808
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: for John John Sigler z I E g l e

809
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: r uh and everything I do you can find there.

810
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: Although our our website for the With the Benefit of

811
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: Findsight podcast is www dot Framing Paterno dot com. You

812
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: can find all the raw interviews. We did dozens of

813
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: hours of raw interviews, but we that's how transparent we are.

814
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: We put out the raw unedited interviews we did for

815
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: this podcast at Framing Paterno dot com. Awesome. Thank you, John,

816
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Thanks Man,