1 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 1: Have you ever thought the cards were just stacked against you, 2 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: that life for you was not fair. Well, our guest 3 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: tonight is going to give you something hope. She's going 4 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: to prove to you that you can overcome. Mary Beth's 5 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: childhood was abusive, traumatic and not surprising, led to substance abuse. 6 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: She started drinking y'all when she was twelve, then used 7 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: various drugs, and at sixteen she found meth. By the 8 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: time she was seventeen, she was shooting up. Now I 9 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: want you to listen to this next sentence. She struggled 10 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: with meth until she was thirty two, y'all. That's half 11 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: her life. She's here tonight and she is going to 12 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: talk about her life of crime and where her life 13 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: is now. Y'all please help me. Welcome Mary Beth O'Connor. 14 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: Happy to be here. I'm looking forward to it. 15 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: Well, judge, it's an honor, and y'all I did not misspeak. 16 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: I want you to know that as a title, not 17 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: a last name. You heard me. She's a judge. 18 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: Y'all. 19 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: Better get ready. As my sister Chareon would say, hang 20 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: on to your beds here it comes. So tell us 21 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: a little bit about that childhood. 22 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was problematic from the beginning. You know, 23 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: I had a mother who really wasn't bonded to me 24 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: or interested in me. I was left one time for 25 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 2: six months with my uh at a nunnery my first 26 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: six months of life, for three years with a great grandmother. 27 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: My mother could be violent, but when I was nine, 28 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: had just got much worse because she married my stepfather 29 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: and he was very violent with her, physically, sexually violent 30 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: with me. Just you know, a very high stress environment 31 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: where you never knew what was going to happen or 32 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: how far things would go, and where what I did 33 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: and what happened to me. There was not a close 34 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: connection between those two things. So it was really really 35 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 2: difficult to handle on a day to day basis. 36 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: Was there anybody, a teacher, a neighbor, a coach, like 37 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: anybody that tried to look out for you at all? 38 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 2: Well, I did get a lot of positive attention at school. 39 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 2: That was sort of my one place where I was seen, 40 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: where I was valued. I always did really well. I 41 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: was very verbal, you know, I was engaging, and so 42 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: I got positive attention at school and that did make 43 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 2: me at least feel that I had sort of some 44 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: positive attributes. You know that people were paying a little 45 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: bit of attention, but they didn't know what was going 46 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 2: on at home, and so it was never there was 47 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 2: never any obvious sign to them, or at least none 48 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 2: that they recognized. So positive attention, but not any sort 49 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: of intervention in the family situation. 50 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: I figured you had to be a good student, and 51 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: I figured that there had to be at least some 52 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: not safe place, because it may not have been that 53 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: for you either, but at least a place, like you said, 54 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: where you could show off a little bit and know 55 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: that you had something to contribute. 56 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean, and it was really important to me. 57 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 2: I mean I had a lot of anxiety around making 58 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: any kind of a mistake. I remember we took a 59 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: standardized test when I was in fourth grade and I 60 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: got like straight ninety nine's on this standardized test, and 61 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: I went home crying because I didn't get any I 62 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: didn't get any hundreds, and my mother had to explain 63 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: to me that they were percentiles and there weren't any hundreds. 64 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: And I mean, but that was the level because it 65 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: was sort of all I had. He's afraid of losing it. 66 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: Ah, So you didn't realize you were like in the 67 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: elite one percent like you. Yeah, we might not have 68 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: hung out back then. Academically, I'm gonna tell you that 69 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: is fantastic. Okay, So you had abuse inside your house, 70 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: but a lot of times when people are out on 71 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:29,679 Speaker 1: the streets using drugs, there's danger elsewhere outside of your house. 72 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: And that was true for me. I mean there were 73 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: dangerous situations. I had several sexual assaults outside of the home, 74 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 2: including when I was in college. I was kidnapped off 75 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 2: the street three men six hours, rape by all. And 76 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 2: I also moved into a violent boyfriend in college, and 77 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: that's not an uncommon choice by women who have been 78 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: abused as children. So the violence was sort of deep 79 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: and wide, and it sort of built on itself. I 80 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: felt like I couldn't get away from it, like it 81 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: was following me wherever I went. 82 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: And the kidnappers, you didn't know. This was just off 83 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: the street. 84 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: Yes, I did not know them. It was off the street. Yes. 85 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: And let me be clear, I'm not saying it would 86 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: be any better. I was just trying to understand, you're 87 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: just going about your life and you are snatched. 88 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: Yes, And I mean I made a choice to get 89 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: in the van. So you know, I could have made 90 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 2: better decisions, but I didn't know that there were three 91 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 2: of them in the van. You know, they sort of 92 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 2: took me by surprise. And it's like interesting because with 93 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: an abuse history, sometimes you go back and forth between 94 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 2: being hyper alert and at other times not really recognizing danger. 95 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: And that's sort of how it played out for me. 96 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: And so sometimes I would, you know, jump if you 97 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: came up behind me, and other times I didn't understand 98 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: the risk that I was getting myself into because my 99 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: self preservation skills had been beaten out of me, and 100 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 2: so I wasn't always able to do that or to 101 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: recognize danger. 102 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: Well, it's going to skew what is danger because sometimes 103 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: you're beat because you didn't do what you were told, 104 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 1: and sometimes you're beat for no reason, so there's no 105 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: way to know. And that to me, is how you 106 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: go into adulthood. Is this guy dangerous? No, it's a guy. 107 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get in the van. We're going to party 108 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: a little bit, that's it. But then when you get 109 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: in the van, you've been conned, you've been swindled. That's 110 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: a whole different gig to me, that's true. 111 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 2: And part of the reason I talk about that story 112 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: is because so many of us that have been through 113 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: a sexual assault, we second guess ourselves so much about, 114 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: you know, whatever we did leading up to it, And 115 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: I always want to make it clear like that, even 116 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 2: though I made a poor choice, that doesn't mean that 117 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: I was responsible for what happened. What happened was on them. 118 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: Preach Listen. The youngest victim of a sexual assault that 119 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: I've ever worked was eighteen months old. The oldest was 120 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: ninety eight on her birthday. So let me just say 121 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: neither one of those victims did anything. No victim that 122 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: I have ever dealt with, brought it on themselves. Somebody 123 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: else made the decision to harm somebody. Doesn't matter what 124 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: they're wearing, doesn't matter what they say, doesn't matter what 125 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: car they get into. None of that matters. And certainly 126 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: we know that now. If we didn't know it in 127 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,239 Speaker 1: past decades, we know it. So there's no conversation there 128 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: with me. I'll tell you. You get out of college, 129 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: you're still using math, and you develop a plan. Now 130 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: this kind of knocked me out, judge, because you attack 131 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: this thing almost academically. You know AA doesn't work for you, 132 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: it's not something you're gonna be able to subscribe to. 133 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: So you go and you build your own plan. Can 134 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: you walk us through what happened? Was there a dark moment? 135 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: Was there a rock bottom? Or was there I'm gonna 136 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: do something different and get myself out of this. 137 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: Well by thirty two, I think I was in a 138 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: place where a lot of us, you substances for a 139 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: long time, get to, which is it's not necessarily sort 140 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 2: of a one time event that's a light bulb. It's 141 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: a wearing down process. And so by thirty two I 142 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 2: couldn't hold a job. I was having physical problems from 143 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: the math. I was really just you know, hopeless and 144 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: in despair and feeling like I'm living in this miserable 145 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 2: little box. And my partner was ready to throw me out. 146 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: And so it was all of that together where I 147 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 2: finally said, you know, well maybe I ought to go 148 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: to rehab. And so I did, and like you say, 149 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 2: when I got there, I found out it was twelve 150 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 2: step exclusive, which is, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous and all 151 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: of the anonymouses and those programs are a good fit 152 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: for many, but they're also not right for many. Others, 153 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: and they weren't right for me, and so I really 154 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: had to think about what to do, because they swore 155 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 2: to me there was no other way. But I decided, 156 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: like you saying, I decided I was going to sort 157 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: of that. I decided it was my job to listen, right, 158 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: to listen from people who had more success, you know, 159 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 2: further along in the process, people who had some knowledge, 160 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 2: to take what they said seriously, but at the same 161 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: time to filter it. Is this a strategy or a 162 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: technique or a philosophy or approach that I think I 163 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: can make work for me. And so I always feed 164 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: myself as the decision maker, but also as a decision 165 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: maker whose job was to keep her ears open, you know, 166 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 2: and not just reject anything out of hand. And so 167 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: that's how I did it. I synthesized. I did read 168 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: all the AA books. I found women for Sobriety. I 169 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: found the Parent Organization, the Smart Recovery, the Parent Organization, 170 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: the Life Rang Secular Recovery. I read all their books, 171 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 2: went to all their meetings, and I just always was 172 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 2: building the plan that I thought was going to work 173 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 2: for me, and then adjusting and over time, which is 174 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 2: what most recovery looks like, and then also adding in 175 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 2: trauma therapy because I knew that the violence was underneath 176 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 2: my drug use and if I didn't address that, I 177 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 2: wasn't going to be able to be so. But I 178 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 2: also would never be happy or productive, and so I 179 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 2: had to tackle everything together. And that was how I 180 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 2: was thinking about it. 181 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: And you know what kind of knocked me out when 182 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,239 Speaker 1: I read that, I'm like, you know what, She's approaching 183 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: her sobriety with logic, with rules for herself, with this process, 184 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: kind of like you do with a criminal case. 185 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: It's true, It's true, And the truth is that I 186 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,599 Speaker 2: was really sort of teaching myself. I didn't think of 187 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: it this way, but in retrospect, I was teaching myself 188 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: that I could guide myself forward. And it was the 189 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: same skills set that applies to everything. It was like 190 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: sort of analyzing where am I, where am I trying 191 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: to get to, how do I think I might get there? 192 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 2: Setting a goal, building a plan, implementing it. These are 193 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: all life skills that applied well beyond sobriety. 194 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: Correct. Yes, And you know the title of your book, 195 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: from Junkie to Judge. I mean, if that don't make 196 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: you want to pick the book up and at least 197 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: flipped through it. But you know, as I'm reading the book, 198 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: here's what you do six years into sobriety, which is 199 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: not that long, right, I mean you use drugs a 200 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: lot longer than six years. So six years into sobriety, 201 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: what do you decide to do? Mary Beth O'Connor. 202 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 2: Go to law school. 203 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: Because there's no stress there, there's no drugs or alcohol there. 204 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it's going to be a very soft, very 205 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: light hearted community for you, I'm sure. 206 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 3: And I'm sitting there going law school, like, oh my gosh, 207 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: how so again? I knew you had to be bright. 208 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: But that's kind of a risk, isn't it. 209 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: It was a risk. Well. Also, I had actually gone 210 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 2: to law school right after college, but I was using 211 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: so much meth by the time I got there that 212 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: I couldn't do it. Like I literally couldn't get there. 213 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: I had handed back a top ten law school, Berkeley Law, 214 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: because of my meth addiction. And I knew it. And 215 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 2: so when I got sober, well, first of all, when 216 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: I got sober, my and I was thirty two, As 217 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: you said, my first professional goal was literally let's not 218 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 2: get fired again. 219 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 4: That was my. 220 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: Hey wait a minute, sugar, I've never used math, but 221 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: I've got that same philosophy. 222 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: And so I had to work my way up. I mean, 223 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: I had a Berkeley degree in good grace, but you know, 224 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: an embarrassing resume for the last ten years before I 225 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 2: got sober. And so I started like at a low 226 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 2: level temp job, and then I got you know, more 227 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 2: of a mid level job, and then I got a 228 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 2: supervisory job at a larger company, and then at six 229 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: and a half years sober, I went to Berkeley. I 230 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 2: went to law school for real when I was thirty 231 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: nine years old as well, So it took me that 232 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: long to get ready for it. But it was scary. 233 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: I hadn't been I hadn't taken a test in sixteen years, 234 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: and law school, of course, is very challenging. But I 235 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: will say I was actually in a pretty good place 236 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: in my life for it because my sobriety was solid. 237 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: I was I had resolved some of my PTSD, some 238 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: of my IT which showed up as very severe anxiety 239 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 2: some of that. So I was in a better emotional place. 240 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: My partner and I actually made it through and we 241 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 2: were still together. So I had sort of a safe, 242 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: supportive home environment, and I wasn't, you know, twenty two anymore, 243 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: sort of you know, trying to date and do all 244 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 2: the things that twenty two year olds do. So it 245 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 2: was scary, but I actually was in a good place 246 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: to tackle it the same way I tackled everything else, 247 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: which was systematically and with discipline, and you know, the 248 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: skills that I had developed during those six years of sobriety. 249 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to tell you you and that partner. 250 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: That's another book from Junkie to Judge to Partner, because 251 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: that's amazing that y'all could stay together and still be 252 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: on a foundation that's rock solid. 253 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it definitely took work. When I mean 254 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 2: when I went into rehab, he was making no promises, 255 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: you know, like no promises. They have family group in rehab, 256 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 2: and he came and he told the therapist, I think 257 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 2: it's too late. You know, she heard too many bridges. 258 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: So it wasn't looking good. But he did let me 259 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: come home to sort of see whether I was going 260 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: to succeed or take it seriously. And we are still 261 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: together today. 262 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: So it's been congratulations, Thank you. 263 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: It's it's an unexpected joy. It's been a real help. 264 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I will say when when I got out 265 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: of rehab, things like having you know, a safe home 266 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: to go to with a relative partner who was at 267 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: least letting willing to let me try to succeed. That 268 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: was an advantage. Not everyone has that situation, Amen, and 269 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: I was grateful for it. Yes. 270 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: So twenty fourteen, you're appointed a judge. Ship Yeah, I 271 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: mean that's got to be one of those moments. I 272 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: mean you're driving home going, girl, you did it. Nobody 273 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: could say anything to you at that point, to me, 274 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: but just honor it and celebrate it. 275 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: I mean it was a real accomplishment. I you know, 276 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: I had been working as a lawyer for let's say, 277 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: about twenty years at that point, and I mean I 278 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: was I was twenty years sober at that point. I 279 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 2: was twenty years sober. And I had worked in big 280 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: law after I got out of law school, and then 281 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: I did class action work for the federal government, and 282 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: then I was appointed a federal administrative law juze. So 283 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: it was really a time of reflection. That's when I 284 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: started thinking about the memoir, you know, because it was 285 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: a how the heck, did I go from shooting method 286 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: seventeen until thirty two? That was not a short period 287 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: of time. And now I'm a federal judge. And it 288 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: really made me start to think, is my story unusual 289 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: enough that it would would capture attention to allow me 290 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: to share information and educate and talk about multiple pathways 291 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: to recovery and offer reassurance to those struggling or to 292 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 2: their friends and their family, help reduce stigma by saying, 293 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, we really don't want to give 294 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: up on anybody, not even if they're shooting met for 295 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: fifteen years, you know, because look where they could end up. 296 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: So I was thinking about all those things, and that's 297 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 2: sort of how I started taking notes for the book, 298 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: thinking that perhaps it could be useful. 299 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: Perhaps, And here's what's so remarkable to me. One element 300 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: to your story as a parent that is shocking to 301 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: me is you know, you don't go to Macy's to 302 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: get your math. You are street wise. You are street 303 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: level buying from pretty accomplished drug dealers. This is not 304 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: something that you were not in danger doing every day. 305 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: That's true, Although the other side of that is that 306 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: a lot of times there is a community among drug users, right, 307 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: I mean, of course, like when I was in high school, 308 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: I mean these are I grew up in a small 309 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 2: town in central Jersey. You know, the drug dealers are 310 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: guys three years older than me, you know, from my town, 311 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 2: or their buddy from two towns away. So there there 312 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 2: is danger to a certain extmp, but there's also a community. 313 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 2: You know these people, and then when you're on math, 314 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 2: you spend days with them, you know, like days without sleeping, 315 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 2: And so there's that side of it. You choose your 316 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: friends based on your drug use, because when you're using 317 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: at that level, you really don't want to be around 318 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: people who don't support that. But you know, I mean, 319 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 2: there are relationships that you develop, and so there's some 320 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: risk and you have to be aware of it, but 321 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: there is also a sense of community, which is one 322 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: of the reasons that some people keep going with the 323 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: drugs because it does give you that community that you 324 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 2: may be feeling because of your family situation when you're 325 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 2: when you're a teenager or whatever others struggles you have, 326 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: that these are people that you can sort of hang 327 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: out with and that you're all going to sort of 328 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 2: have a a common lifestyle, a common way of life, 329 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 2: and that the pain that we all share. Sometimes we 330 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: see it, but a lot of times we all just 331 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 2: mutually agree not to discuss it. 332 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: Again, not a whole lot different than the law, all right. 333 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 4: So you know, I've often told people, especially rookies, you 334 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 4: can't arrest addiction out of somebody. 335 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: You've got to get them help. And one thing that 336 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: has recently happened in our criminal justice community, a judge 337 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: was killed by a sheriff in Kentucky. And both of 338 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: those men, independently and working together, ran programs to help 339 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: people with drug problems. If there was an arrest, they 340 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: went to drug court and then they were sentenced to 341 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: get some help, and they followed up and they gave 342 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: them up their tools to help them be successful. And 343 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: this is a tragedy for both families, for the court, 344 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 1: for the sheriff's department, but it is a complete tragedy 345 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: for that community because the next person may not have 346 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: that same belief. I want to ask your opinion on 347 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: drug court. 348 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a wide range of quality of drug courts 349 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: around the country. Some are good, some are evidence based, 350 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 2: and some are not. And so it really depends on 351 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: the specific court. And so For example, if somebody had 352 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 2: a perfect abstinence it from day one is unusual in recovery. 353 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: I didn't have perfect abstinence from day one. I used 354 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: three times in my first five months, which was a 355 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: vast improvement, but not perfection, right, yeah, and so. 356 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: That's a remarkable change that was. 357 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 2: But did I feel fail three times and succeed? I 358 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,479 Speaker 2: don't look at it that way. It's just when you 359 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 2: first get sober. First of all, you've been using the 360 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 2: drugs to keep down the pain. Now there's nothing keeping 361 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: it down. It comes up, and you don't have the 362 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: skills to handle it. Plus your brain is screaming at 363 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: you you need drugs like you need them, and so 364 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 2: it's a challenge, right. Some drug courts understand that, and 365 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 2: they will have some consequence for having a you know, 366 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: a lack of perfect absence, and others, you know, there's 367 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 2: a very heavy penalty for lack of perfect absence, which 368 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 2: is really not understanding how recovery and addiction work because 369 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: it's very difficult and not possible for most people to 370 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 2: do that. Some drug courts will put people in treatment 371 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 2: that's evidence based, and others put everybody in one program 372 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 2: regardless of whether it's a good fit or not. Some 373 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 2: drug courts recognize that often often over half the time, 374 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 2: people have another mental health condition in addition to their addiction, 375 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: which is a mental health condition, so they need treatment 376 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: for both if they're to succeed, and others just don't. 377 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: It's just we'll treat you for the drugs and pretend 378 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 2: there's nothing else is going on. And so there's a 379 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: variety of qualities. Certainly I would rather have people in 380 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 2: drug court than incarcerated, But I really think the better 381 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 2: option is that we take the money from the criminal 382 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 2: justice system when we put it into the treatment system. 383 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 2: Because a lot of our drug policy there's sort of 384 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 2: we talk about it as if there's treatment on demand 385 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 2: for everybody who wants it, and that's just not true. 386 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 2: I mean, we don't have a very good treatment system 387 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 2: in the US that you know, for people that don't 388 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 2: have insurance or don't have cash. And so is drug 389 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: court better than going to jail? Yes? Could there be 390 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 2: a better use of our dollars? Often there could if 391 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 2: we would take the money out of the criminal justice 392 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 2: system and put more of it into the treatment side. 393 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: You know, I have a sister that is a level 394 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: one trauma nurse. A lot of times people ask her, 395 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, how many people do you see that have 396 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: been using drugs or alcohol? And she's like almost all 397 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: of them, you know. And I'm a crime scene investigator 398 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: and I can tell you the same thing. So to 399 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: your point, sometimes money might be better spent on the 400 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: front end of that thing. 401 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, for sure, Yes, that's right. I mean, and 402 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 2: there's just a lot of positives from getting people to 403 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: help they need it. Does it reduces crime? I mean, 404 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: incarcerating someone is expensive. You know, the data shays you 405 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: could treat three or four people for the price of 406 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: incarcerating one. I mean, it's just a much. You know, 407 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 2: it's an expensive system. And that just counts the price 408 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: of the incarceration, not the police and you know, all 409 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: the lawyers and all the other parts of it. And 410 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: so it is better to try to get the system 411 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 2: ready so that when someone's ready to get help, that 412 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: there's a door open for them. That's the ideal scenario. 413 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: So is there any person from your past when you 414 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: were drinking and drugging that you are still connected to, 415 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: still friends with. 416 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are people that I'm still connected to, especially 417 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 2: as I've gotten older, more and more of them got 418 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: sober as well. I mean, of course a lot of 419 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: people died, right not everyone is still here with us, 420 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: and that's that's always a loss. But there are definitely 421 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 2: people that I used drugs with when I was a 422 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 2: teenager that I'm still friends with. Few were in the 423 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 2: last ten years of my drug use, which is a 424 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: little more isolated, but I do have still some of 425 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: those relationships. 426 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: Yes, well, I think that's important for people to hear, 427 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: because you always hear, oh, everybody's going to abandon you 428 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: or you're going to abandon them once you get sober, 429 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: and that doesn't have to be true. So I just 430 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: wanted to have that for people to know that doesn't 431 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: have to be part of the story. 432 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 2: That's right, I mean. But also, you can peer support groups, 433 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: whether it's Twelve Steps, you know, the Alcoholics Anonymous or 434 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: other peer support groups that you can build old a 435 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 2: sober community through them. That's one of the benefits of 436 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 2: pure support is that you meet other people that are 437 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: committed to sobriety as well, so there is some replacement 438 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: of some of the people that you were hanging out 439 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: with with new sober friends. And that's one of the 440 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: advantages of going to support meetings because you get to 441 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 2: meet people in your community that have the same goal 442 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: and path as you do. The other thing is that 443 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 2: in the beginning of sobriety, it is important to evaluate 444 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: your relationships as far as who can I safely have 445 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 2: in my life today? So you don't always have to 446 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,479 Speaker 2: cut people out forever. But sometimes, let's say even a 447 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 2: family member. There may be a family member who just 448 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: isn't very supportive or who triggers you because of the 449 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 2: way they interact with you, and you may have to say, 450 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: you know what, I have to put my cousin on 451 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 2: sort of a longer leash for a while. I can 452 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: talk to her or email with her, but I can't 453 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 2: be in the same room with her for a while. 454 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: And it's just whatever, whatever the relationships are, it's important 455 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 2: to think in early recovery about who can I safely 456 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 2: have around me. Now, those don't have to be permanent decisions, 457 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 2: but in the beginning you may have to be more 458 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 2: protective than you need to be. Let's say three months 459 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 2: later or six months later. 460 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: What a great way to say that though, And again 461 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: for people that are listening trying to maybe find the 462 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: right fit for them for them to know, hey, I 463 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: don't have to cut this cousin out forever. Just maybe 464 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: six weeks, maybe six months, maybe six years, but not forever. 465 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: I think that's great. 466 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you have to protect your sobriety. Look, 467 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: you know, I had thirty one years in January, and 468 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: one of the things I say is going from thirty 469 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 2: to thirty one that is not the hard part. That's 470 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: not the hard part. The time that you need to 471 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 2: be sort of hyper focused on your sobriety is typically 472 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: eighteen to thirty six months, and at that point, people 473 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: tend to be very stabilized, you know, as I'm saying. 474 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 2: But I'd also like to share some positive data with 475 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: your with your listeners, because we hear so much, we 476 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: hear so much negative data as if nobody recovers or 477 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 2: hardly anyone. The truth is that seventy five percent of 478 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,239 Speaker 2: the people who have a substance use disorder, which is, 479 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 2: you know, the modern name for addiction, seventy five percent 480 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 2: will recover. They will get to a point where they 481 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 2: no longer meet the criteria for having an addiction seventy 482 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 2: five percent. The other positive data point is that once 483 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 2: you hit five years of continuous sobriety, you only have 484 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: a fifteen percent chance of ever relapsing again. 485 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: That is incredible. I've never heard either one of those statistics. 486 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 2: So you know, to me, it's light at the end 487 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 2: of the tunnel, right. I mean, don't ever give up 488 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: on your loved one because there's always, you know, still 489 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: hope that they'll they will get well, and the longer 490 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 2: that they stay sober, the more likely the less likely 491 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 2: they are to ever go back to it. 492 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and reset in the clock, man, I'm a big 493 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: believer in that in all things. If you have a 494 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: fight with your husband, honey, reset the clack. That got 495 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: to be the end of your marriage. It's a fight, 496 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: big deal, right, And I don't mean physical, I'm talking 497 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: about arguing, y'all, come on. But I do believe in 498 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 1: second chances. I believe you've been sober three four years 499 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: and you relapse one night, that's one night. Yes, reset 500 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: that clock and then maybe go seven years. If you relapse, 501 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: it's all good. I mean, I would rather somebody relapse 502 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: for a night or four than five years. 503 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. In the recoverage comunity, we actually use different terminology 504 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 2: that can be often referred to as a slip versus 505 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 2: a relapse because it doesn't go on, you know, it's 506 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 2: like sort of a momentary impulse loss. 507 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: And well I like that better too, Yeah. 508 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's a distinction in any time that someone 509 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: has any kind of a slip or relapse, you know, 510 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 2: the focus shouldn't be on blame or making them feel bad. 511 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,719 Speaker 2: The focus should be on how can we help you 512 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: to sort of refocus on your recovery and to get 513 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 2: whatever additional techniques or strategies or help you need so 514 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: that you can stabilize yourself again. That should be the focus. 515 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: Amen. And you know it's so crazy because you know, 516 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: you try to remind people this is a disease. Nobody 517 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: chooses it. Nobody sits in that third grade class and goes, ooh, 518 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 1: I hope I'm a drug addict when I'm seventeen. Nobody 519 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: wants that they can't help it. 520 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: It's miserable. And the truth is that that there are 521 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 2: the two primary causes of developing an addiction are childhood 522 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: trauma and untreated mental health. You know, and so when 523 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 2: you people get sober, they usually also have to do 524 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: that other work. What was what is underneath my my addiction, 525 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 2: what was sort of causing me to have the compulsion 526 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: to use to access because you need to address that 527 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: to increase your odds of sobriety, of staying sober, but 528 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: also just being happy, being productive, having a good life, 529 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: healing whatever wounds were there before you picked up that 530 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: first substance. That's why the subset out of my book is, 531 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 2: you know, triumph over trauma and addiction, because they are interrelated, 532 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: as was the PTSD that I didn't know I have. 533 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: I had in the severe anxiety. So there's usually more 534 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: than one thing to work on when people start their 535 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: recovery process. 536 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: And that's the hard part, right I'm paleling those layers 537 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: back and admitting it, putting a spotlight on it, dealing 538 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: with it. 539 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: It's the hard part, but it's also ultimately the way out, 540 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 2: you know, it's ultimately the way out. 541 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: You know, you are so open and you are just 542 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: a tremendous source of not just information but giving people 543 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: such a playbook. How can people read you if they won't. 544 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 2: To well, my memoir again from Junkie to judges on 545 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: Amazon and all the usual sites. My website junkidjudge dot 546 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: com that has like my opinion pieces I've been in 547 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 2: the Wall Street Journal, in the La Times. It has 548 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: a messaging feature so people can message me through my 549 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 2: website and I answer all messages. And then also I 550 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: do do a lot of conferences, workshops, other types of 551 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 2: speaking engagements. So reach out with opportunities, reach out with questions. 552 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: I'm happy to answer questions from anyone struggling or the 553 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: people who love them. 554 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: Judge Mary Beth O'Connor, I cannot tell you how much 555 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming on given all this incredible information, 556 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: but specifically those statistics, because I do believe in spreading 557 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: good news. I do believe that people deserve second chances 558 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: and help and support and just anything we can do 559 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: to make sure people are the best they can possibly be. 560 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: And you are doing that every day. So I appreciate 561 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 1: you coming on to Zone seven and I applaud what 562 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: you are doing well. 563 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it. 564 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 4: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I 565 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 4: always do with a quote, sometimes you can only find 566 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 4: heaven by slowly backing away from hell, actress Carrie Fisher. 567 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven