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Speaker 1: Welcome to the stuff mom never told you, from house

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Speaker 1: to folks, not color. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. And today we are talking

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Speaker 1: about viticulture and analogy. Those are fancy words. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: just talking about one. Yeah. Viticulture the cultivation or culture

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Speaker 1: of great analogy, a science that deals with wine and

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Speaker 1: wine making, and wine itself is considered quote our original

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Speaker 1: alcoholic beverage, dating back eight thousand years, according to the

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Speaker 1: book Inventing Wine by Paul Lucas. It's also the only

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Speaker 1: thing that they drink in a Game of Thrones. I

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Speaker 1: think I don't think I've ever seen anyone drink water.

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Speaker 1: I think they just drink wine, probably because the water

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Speaker 1: is full of poison, full of dragon poison. Well, anyway,

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Speaker 1: um wine. You know it's it's more than just the

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Speaker 1: boxed wine that I may or may not buy on

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Speaker 1: a regular basis. Wine is actually linked inextricably, according to

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Speaker 1: and B madisar with religious worship, revelry, camaraderie, and upper

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Speaker 1: class entitlement. And she says that it's often been a

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Speaker 1: beverage reserved for men of privilege. Yeah, she writes in

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Speaker 1: her book Women of Wine, The Rise of Women in

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Speaker 1: the Global Wine Industry, that women regardless of social standing,

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Speaker 1: were associated with wines excesses rather than its benefits. Inebriated

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Speaker 1: women were frequently linked indiscriminate sexuality, promiscuity, and adultery. So

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Speaker 1: right from the get go in our conversation about wine

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Speaker 1: and women, it starts off on a bit of a

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Speaker 1: sexist foot. Yeah, Sally would not approve of this. She

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Speaker 1: would be like, oh, heaven Sally, your mom Bally, My mom,

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Speaker 1: uh drinks quite her fair share of wine. We're we're

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Speaker 1: big wine drinkers in our family. I say we, but

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Speaker 1: I really mean my mom and her sisters. So wine

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Speaker 1: would not be a stuff your mom never told you, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: not that we've talked about it, but I learned from

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Speaker 1: the best. Let's put it that way. Well, Sally is

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Speaker 1: among plenty of friends. In the United States. Americans really

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Speaker 1: love their wine. In fact, in two thousand twelve, three

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Speaker 1: hundred and forty two million cases of wine were consumed,

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Speaker 1: which is a seven percent increase from five years ago.

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Speaker 1: So not only are we drinking a lot of wine,

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Speaker 1: we're drinking more wine than ever before in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and by volume. We Americans consume more wine than any

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Speaker 1: other nation actually, but not so surprisingly on a per

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Speaker 1: capita basis. The French, for instance, drink a lot more

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Speaker 1: wine than we do. They drink five bottles for everyone

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Speaker 1: that we drink. And also as a nation, we may

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Speaker 1: agins are just as likely to reach for wine as

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Speaker 1: for beer, which is actually a huge shift from twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago. We're drinking a lot more wine now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And some think that the spike in our wine consumption

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Speaker 1: is due to two things. First of all, the recession,

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Speaker 1: because let's face it, two buck chuck from Trader Joe's

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Speaker 1: can get you pretty drunk on a dime. And they

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Speaker 1: also attribute it to changing preferences of millennials, because a

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Speaker 1: gallop pole found a thirty point drop in beer preference

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Speaker 1: among people under thirtyes. So young uns like you and I,

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Speaker 1: Caroline are really enjoying wine. More interesting, I wonder, I

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Speaker 1: wonder what's behind the drop in beer, Not just the

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Speaker 1: rise in wine, but the drop in beer also. I

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Speaker 1: mean they also attribute this um rise in wine loving

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Speaker 1: two drinkers over fifty and women in particular. Yeah, women

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Speaker 1: love wine. One of the reasons why we wanted to

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Speaker 1: do this episode on wine is because I feel like,

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Speaker 1: at least if you were to choose a type of

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Speaker 1: alcoholic beverage that women are going to go for, if

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Speaker 1: they walk up to an open bar, it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: a glass of wine, probably a glass of white wine,

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Speaker 1: or maybe a vodka tonic. But that's another episode. Um,

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Speaker 1: but women buy eight out of ten bottles of wine

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Speaker 1: consumed at home, according to the magazine Wine Business. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and according to a a gallop pole that you talked about, UM,

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Speaker 1: fifty two percent of women prefer wine over beer. And

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Speaker 1: that's up from forty three twenty years ago. Now looking

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Speaker 1: at men, only of men choose wine as their favorite

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Speaker 1: boozy beverage, but even that is up five percent from

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago. Yeah. And to me, the fact that

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Speaker 1: women comprise an overwhelming majority of the wine buyers for

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Speaker 1: the wine that we have in our households and also

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Speaker 1: wine drinkers, it stands in contrast to that quote from

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Speaker 1: Women and Wine about the history long ago where women

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Speaker 1: were associated only with wines excesses, and as we'll see

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Speaker 1: in the making of wine. In the viticulture, women have

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Speaker 1: often been relegated to the side, only allowed to do

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Speaker 1: certain smaller tasks, whereas the making of wine has been

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Speaker 1: more of a thing for men, and yet today we're

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Speaker 1: drinking more of it. But maybe because of that colored

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Speaker 1: history that we have with wine, women are still considered

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Speaker 1: a niche market. Yeah, a lot of ways we are.

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Speaker 1: And that's interesting when I was reading all this stuff

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Speaker 1: about how we are this niche market. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think it's obvious when you when you google anything about

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Speaker 1: women and wine, A lot of what you get is

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Speaker 1: this really sappy advertising the flag women and wine, shoes

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Speaker 1: and women and wine and baking and women and wine

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Speaker 1: and tools. I don't know, but you know, like I said, me,

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Speaker 1: growing up, I was surrounded by female wine drinkers. My

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Speaker 1: dad didn't drink wine. So I've always thought of like

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Speaker 1: wine as a more feminine beverage, and yet the industry

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Speaker 1: is just now catching up to that. For instance, in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six, we have the launch of Wine Adventure,

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Speaker 1: which proclaims itself the first wine magazine for women. But

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Speaker 1: side note why there needs to be a wine magazine

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Speaker 1: for women, I don't really understand, right, And that's kind

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Speaker 1: of what Slate writer Mike Steinberger was talking about in

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Speaker 1: a two thousand five piece, where he really seemed confused

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Speaker 1: to hear the news that wine wasn't already a happily

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Speaker 1: co ed party. And he said that to suggest that

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Speaker 1: women have a distinct set of grievances about how wine

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Speaker 1: is critiqued ignores the fact that quite a few men

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Speaker 1: are equally disaffected and often leads to that kind of patronizing,

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Speaker 1: saccharine journalism that most women and men rightly abore. And

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Speaker 1: he said that the wine market has a consumer gap,

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Speaker 1: not a gender gap. He said, it's not so much

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Speaker 1: that we need to like capture this niche market of

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Speaker 1: women or you know, older women, younger women. Whoever, it's

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Speaker 1: more that different consumers are looking for different things. Because

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Speaker 1: there's the whole thing about like men wanting to buy

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Speaker 1: wine according to their fancy pants ratings, whereas women are

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Speaker 1: maybe more inclined to buy wine that they want to

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Speaker 1: share with their friends. Yeah, I mean, experts and marketers

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Speaker 1: have paid a lot of attention to how men and

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Speaker 1: women shop for wine, and so typically they say that

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Speaker 1: the way that women select wine has a lot more

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Speaker 1: to do with the food that's going to go with it,

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Speaker 1: the setting and what the bottle looks like, rather than

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Speaker 1: wine credentials like vintage charts and the acquisition process and

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Speaker 1: ray things that they say that men are more drawn to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I will fully admit here in front of you and

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Speaker 1: everybody else that I love a good type face on

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Speaker 1: a bottle of wine. I mean I tend to go

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Speaker 1: for like Shara's or Sara Like. But I think I've

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Speaker 1: said this on the podcast before. I can only drink

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Speaker 1: red wine, Like if I'm out, I can only have

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Speaker 1: a glass. If I'm at home, I have to be

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Speaker 1: already in my pajamas sitting down because it will put

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Speaker 1: me to sleep. But like, there's this bottle of wine

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Speaker 1: that has a like a luchador mask, a lucha libre

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Speaker 1: mask on the cover, the cover like it's an album

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Speaker 1: on the front label, and I just I love that.

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Speaker 1: It's like getting a happy meal toy as an adult. Well,

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Speaker 1: while your attraction to certain types of labels definitely meshes

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Speaker 1: with the research, Caroline, you are not of a stereotype

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Speaker 1: that women prefer light wines. Women. Supposedly, a woman's wine

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Speaker 1: is a pinot grigio, whereas a man's wine is a

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Speaker 1: broad shouldered cabinet. Sally Sally would Sally would agree with

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Speaker 1: these stereotypes. She she drinks a nice Pinot grig every

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Speaker 1: night with with ice cubes, with ice cube nice. Well,

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Speaker 1: that meshes very well. Caroline with this description in wine

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Speaker 1: business as to what women want in wine, wine business says,

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Speaker 1: the short answer is something balanced and drinkable, enjoyable, and

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Speaker 1: easy to deal with, screw the unnecessary complexities. Well, I

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Speaker 1: found that that piece to be kind of obnoxious. Well, sure,

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Speaker 1: because it sounds like women will just drink anything. Well,

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Speaker 1: but it also framed wine drinking in terms of um

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Speaker 1: like peacekeeping and conflicts and and things like that, which

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Speaker 1: was very strange and I thought, very pandering. And well,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's an example of the saccharine journalism that that

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Speaker 1: Slate writer was calling out, saying, why why all these

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Speaker 1: metaphors with wine writing if we're not just talk about

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Speaker 1: some grapes, I know, I mean, yeah, there really is

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Speaker 1: this movement toward treating women wine drinkers as you know,

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Speaker 1: we're all like part of this weird airhead brigade, brigade

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Speaker 1: that doesn't care about the wine itself, you know, or well,

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm saying, this is someone who buys wine

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Speaker 1: according to labels. But whatever, whatever. They're treating us all

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Speaker 1: like you know, we we only care about the name

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Speaker 1: of the wine itself, or like it's appealing to some

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Speaker 1: like girly sex in the city culture. Right, It's okay.

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Speaker 1: So what has happened here is that marketers have taken

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Speaker 1: the finding, the overwhelming finding that women want, say, something

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Speaker 1: balanced and drinkable. They want ripe, fruit forward wines without

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Speaker 1: a lot of tannin and oak as. Okay, well, you

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Speaker 1: know the way we're gonna sell this is we're going

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Speaker 1: to almost inflate that to a chick lit proportion because

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Speaker 1: I feel like you walk through the wine section at

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Speaker 1: the grocery store or and you could take labels from

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Speaker 1: these wines that are overtly marketed towards women and slap

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Speaker 1: them on a beach read and you wouldn't know the

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Speaker 1: difference because it's lots of pink, lots of stilettos, ponytail

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Speaker 1: silhouettes with names like Mommy, Juice Made Housewife. And then

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Speaker 1: to me, the worst, which is this line called B

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Speaker 1: B E from Treasury Wine estates it's targeting women one

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Speaker 1: to thirty four, so our demographic, Caroline, this one is

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Speaker 1: for us and their flavors are flirty, just a pink muscato,

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Speaker 1: bright a pinot griggio, fresh an unoaky chardonnay, and radiant

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Speaker 1: a reasoning and then all of the language describing it

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Speaker 1: is like a page ripped out of Sex in the City.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny because I've I've had Bright, But I

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Speaker 1: wasn't aware of any of this that we're just talking about, Like,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't aware that it was marketed to women, or

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Speaker 1: that it was supposed to be cute see or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. I just thought, oh, well, it's just called this.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I realized how was it? Do you remember?

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Speaker 1: It was whiny ish, It was very whiny, tasted like wine. Well,

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Speaker 1: the fact that it was whiny and just tasted like wine,

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Speaker 1: you know, it didn't really have any distinctive flavor profiles.

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Speaker 1: It's what a lot of people would argue that it's

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Speaker 1: actually doing a disservice to women who like wine, because

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Speaker 1: a lot of these wines marketed two women are just plunk.

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Speaker 1: It's not very good. It's hyper sweet and not high quality. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not just plank. Bloomberg writer Ellen McCoy says that it's

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Speaker 1: neutered commercial plank so they're really trying to sell you

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Speaker 1: on those stiletto pictures more than they're trying to sell

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Speaker 1: you on the what's in the bottle, which you know,

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Speaker 1: I I've purchased wine before, Like if I'm going to

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Speaker 1: someone's house and I just you know, I'm not buying

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Speaker 1: it because it's so fancy and I want to give

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Speaker 1: them an incredible wine to remember me by. But like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I went to go stay with my aunt

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Speaker 1: Savannah one time, and she's the middle Sister, and so

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Speaker 1: I bought her a bottle of middle Sister wine. Ah,

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Speaker 1: So like you know, I was like, well, a might

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Speaker 1: not be any good, or maybe it is, but it's

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Speaker 1: just but it showed that you were thinking about her.

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Speaker 1: It was more of a gift in that way. Um.

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Speaker 1: Another facet of the more recent approach to wine marketing

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Speaker 1: towards women is how it's not just been a focus

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Speaker 1: on labels and the titling of things like middle sister,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, but also in how they're starting to pedal

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Speaker 1: wine specifically to working moms, as here's your mental health break,

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Speaker 1: I just need a glass of wine. And I say

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Speaker 1: it in that voice jokingly, but I do understand the

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Speaker 1: relaxation of having a glass of wine after work. I

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Speaker 1: understand where that marketing is coming from, but I don't

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Speaker 1: know that saying here, women, drink all of this wine,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna make all of the gender wage gap and

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Speaker 1: the frustration with the you know, the imbalance of housework

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Speaker 1: and childcare just magically go away for the next forty

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Speaker 1: five minutes. Oh god, yeah, no, I've I have totally

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Speaker 1: come home and popped open my box of wine and

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Speaker 1: poured myself a triple, quadruple glass. But I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is not a joke. This is serious. Uh. There are

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Speaker 1: UK health experts who recently noted that a rise there

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Speaker 1: was a rise in alcohol related deaths among women in

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Speaker 1: their thirties and forties, and it's linked to this increase

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Speaker 1: in wine consumption. Yeah. So in a way, that kind

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Speaker 1: of marketing, persistent marketing, could be doing us a health

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Speaker 1: to service in the long run, saying you know what,

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Speaker 1: it's wine, it's got th same eye accidents. It's going

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Speaker 1: to give you a mental health break. Just do it.

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Speaker 1: Just drink it. It doesn't matter the all. You just

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Speaker 1: drink all of this really sugary stuff and you'll be fine.

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Speaker 1: Although moderate consumption at a glass and a half of

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Speaker 1: wine per day has been linked to positive health effects

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Speaker 1: and women for things like preventing bone loss, as we

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Speaker 1: read over at MPR. But again, it's all about moderation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I actually stopped. There was a period. There

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Speaker 1: was a period where I was going home and like

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Speaker 1: having a glass of red wine every night. Not that

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Speaker 1: that's like excessive or bad or terrible or anything by

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Speaker 1: any means, but it got to where where I was like,

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Speaker 1: why am I doing this. I'm doing this because I've

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Speaker 1: I've had like a string of really stressful days at

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Speaker 1: work or whatever. I just got out of traffic or whatever,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's like, well, maybe I should just

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Speaker 1: try other relaxation methods like a bath, like some yoga,

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Speaker 1: or just lying on a couch even for a minute

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Speaker 1: when you get home. Yeah. I just I wonder if

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Speaker 1: the messages are being mixed in terms of with alcohol

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Speaker 1: is um and wine. It seems like it's easier for

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Speaker 1: women too. And I say this in giant air quotes,

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Speaker 1: get away with it because oh, we're just having We're

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Speaker 1: just having a glass of wine or two glasses of

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Speaker 1: wine or three glasses of wine and oh there's the bottle. Yes.

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Speaker 1: And it's part of this like cultural idea of what

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Speaker 1: is acceptable and sophisticated and normal and feminine and female

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Speaker 1: when it comes to like drinking and relaxing. Because if

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Speaker 1: somebody goes home every nine and downs half a bottle

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Speaker 1: of vodka, you're like, oh, well you have a problem.

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Speaker 1: And if someone goes home and drinks a six pack

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Speaker 1: of beer, it would say, oh, that's so unlady like,

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Speaker 1: why would you be doing that? Yeah, and you're going

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Speaker 1: to get a beer good exactly, But there's no we

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Speaker 1: don't hear about wine bellies, you know. Um, So that

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Speaker 1: that is something. It's something that I have started to

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Speaker 1: keep in mind more for myself because I've experienced the

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Speaker 1: same thing as you, Caroline, of getting into those pattern

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Speaker 1: of how easy it is to go home have the wine.

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Speaker 1: And while again in moderation it's not a bad thing,

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Speaker 1: I'm uncomfortable when I realized that it's so much a

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Speaker 1: part of my routine. I'm almost reliant on it that

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Speaker 1: I don't like. And often what you need, and I

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Speaker 1: mean let's not sound like a broken record here, but

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Speaker 1: often what you need is like a break when you're stressed,

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Speaker 1: out like that you need a break, well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, if I get home from work and after

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Speaker 1: I've been sitting in traffic or whatever, it's just well,

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Speaker 1: not just as easy, but it's much healthier to head

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Speaker 1: down to the gym downstairs in my apartment complex and

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Speaker 1: get on the you know, the stationary bike for thirty minutes.

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Speaker 1: That's the same kind of break, but I've exercised instead

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Speaker 1: of you know, down in a bunch like half a

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Speaker 1: bottle of wine exactly, and just as one final side note,

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Speaker 1: rather than just springing always for the two buck chuck.

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Speaker 1: One thing I am trying to get better at is

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Speaker 1: learning more about wine and learning how to enjoy wine,

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Speaker 1: because when you have a glass of really, really really

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Speaker 1: great wine, you are going to drink it more slowly

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna savor it, whereas you might if you're

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Speaker 1: poured a glass of flirty, pink muscato, you're probably just

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Speaker 1: gonna gulp it down because it might not be so good.

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Speaker 1: But speaking of taste, getting getting back to this conversation

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Speaker 1: on men, women and wine, we've established the stereotype of

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Speaker 1: women preferring the lighter, sweeter wines and men wanting something

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Speaker 1: bolder and redder. Do men and women taste wine differently?

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Speaker 1: Are women just drawn to wine because there's something in

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Speaker 1: our palette working differently than men's. It seems to be. So.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be that men and women do taste differently.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, one thing to look at is that

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Speaker 1: wines than elves are often described as masculine or feminine

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Speaker 1: in their weight and flavor. Yeah, and for people who

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Speaker 1: are deeply immersed in wine culture, there is this idea

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Speaker 1: that women do have a finer palette. For instance, Matt

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Speaker 1: Kramer of Wine Spectator told at age that women have

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Speaker 1: more taste buds than men, which makes them inherently better tasters.

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Speaker 1: And then in another article in Wine Business, it says

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Speaker 1: as women wine judges, we might be unfairly harsh. We're

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Speaker 1: quick to dismiss any wine that comes out with sharp elbows,

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Speaker 1: too much tann and too much acid, or too much

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Speaker 1: wood and increasingly too much alcohol. So that seems to

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Speaker 1: be an example of how perhaps our tongues are a

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Speaker 1: little bit more sensitive to certain flavor profiles. Right, and

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Speaker 1: sensory psychologist Marcia pell Chat at the monl Chemical Census

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Speaker 1: Center in Philadelphia backs up some of these taste differences,

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Speaker 1: she says that women to have more acute senses of smell,

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Speaker 1: We flat out prefer less carbonation and wine, and we

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Speaker 1: tend to be more sensitive to bitter flavors, and just

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Speaker 1: like butterflies and hummingbirds, prefer slightly sweeter wines. But when

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Speaker 1: Letty Tie, who is a wine calumnist for the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal, when she sought out an answer to a

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Speaker 1: scientific answer as to whether men and women women taste

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Speaker 1: wine differently, and she spoke with a number of smalley,

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Speaker 1: some of whom were husband and wife couples, to kind

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Speaker 1: of get that his and hers comparison. Her conclusion was

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Speaker 1: that when it comes to wine tasting, the palate seems

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Speaker 1: to be more a product of exposure and training rather

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Speaker 1: than biological sex. So while there might be some sensory

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Speaker 1: differences in the male versus a female tongue with the

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Speaker 1: preference for sweeter wines, for instance, I can understand how

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Speaker 1: that exposure can change your pre friends, because I remember

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Speaker 1: in my younger years, in college days, of course, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't being exposed to many fine wines, and from the

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Speaker 1: get go I would want something more of like a

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Speaker 1: sweeter reasoning or a lot of white wines. I hated Marlow.

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Speaker 1: But now as I've gotten older and I've had more wine,

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Speaker 1: I drink almost exclusively read and I wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a richer case. I don't really like sweet all that

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Speaker 1: much anymore, right, Yeah, And I mean I think the

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Speaker 1: same could go for any type of thing you are

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Speaker 1: training yourself to and buy. I mean, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: the same for beer. I never liked beer when I

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Speaker 1: was younger, and then when I went to college, not

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Speaker 1: to like completely give away to my parents when I

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Speaker 1: started drinking, but when I went away to college, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm just drinking the free junk that's in the keg.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I hated it, and I would try

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Speaker 1: to drink like, you know, vodka, tonics and stuff like that. Well, like,

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Speaker 1: as I got older, I really really started to like

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Speaker 1: better beer. And now I spend way too much money

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Speaker 1: on beer. And it's funny because I dated this this well,

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Speaker 1: this jerk, and we were talking about beers one time

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Speaker 1: and he actually asked me, so, what guy in your

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Speaker 1: life introduced you to good beer? So after he picked

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Speaker 1: himself up off the ground, I informed him that I

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Speaker 1: just developed a palette for better beer as I got older, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it it does make such a difference. And I

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Speaker 1: also don't want to seem like I'm trying to gang

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Speaker 1: up on white wines. I've had experiences too of drinking

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Speaker 1: a better Pinot Griggio and or better chardonnay, and it

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Speaker 1: does make a difference in it, even though that's not

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Speaker 1: normally what I spring for tasting it, I get it.

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Speaker 1: It's delicious, it's buttery, it's light, it's summer, not all that,

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Speaker 1: but it was still very refreshing. Um And I mentioned

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Speaker 1: that Letty to you talked with Somalia is both male

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Speaker 1: and female. And the thing is is that women are

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Speaker 1: not only making strides in terms of consumption and the

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Speaker 1: wine industry catching up slowly but surely, and in kind

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Speaker 1: of roundabout ways to women liking an appreciating wine maybe

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Speaker 1: in different ways than men do, but we are also

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Speaker 1: making strides in the actual production of wine. Although women

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Speaker 1: have been involved in viticulture for a long long time, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean women may have been involved in viticulture for

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Speaker 1: a long time, but it's not like we were always

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Speaker 1: permitted to do some of the uh, you know, heavy lifting,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. Wine making itself has actually long been

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Speaker 1: gender segregated. Women have been not only considered bad luck

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Speaker 1: for the wine, but we've been considered too chatty and

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Speaker 1: inefficient and weak. Yeah, a lot of times women would

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Speaker 1: not be allowed to harvest, crush, or stomp the grapes

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Speaker 1: for fear that our delicate physique would mess things up.

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Speaker 1: But we were allowed to pick and sort grapes. But

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Speaker 1: then when it came time to age the wine and

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Speaker 1: the seller, ladies, you keep out because and I tweeted

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Speaker 1: this out when I read this in the book Women

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Speaker 1: of Wine because I found it so hilarious. Some wineries,

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Speaker 1: even to this day still ban women from being around

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Speaker 1: fermenting wine because of the long held menstrul myth that

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Speaker 1: women on their periods can turn wine to vinegar. That's uh,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting, um, because I feel like I am around

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Speaker 1: a lot more wine on my period. I don't know

399
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: about you. I have a feeling a lot of women

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Speaker 1: can relate. But that's not to say though, that there

401
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: weren't a number of early pioneers. We've on an article

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Speaker 1: over at the Wine Institute just highlighting some women in

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Speaker 1: the US and specifically in California who were making wine

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Speaker 1: and running vineyards in the nineteenth century, such as in

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighties six we have thirty one year old Josephine

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Speaker 1: Tyson who founded a California winery, which was pretty unheard

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Speaker 1: of in the day, and she was actually the first

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Speaker 1: woman to do so. Not to mention the youngest who

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Speaker 1: did not note inherited from a family member like a

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Speaker 1: husband or a father. Yeah, if you go over to

411
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Speaker 1: Italy or France. Um, for those really old wine making cultures,

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Speaker 1: the women who would be involved in the family business,

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Speaker 1: even if they were next in line to inherit it

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Speaker 1: a lot of times because of those outdated ideas about

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Speaker 1: women really not being up to snuff for making wine

416
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Speaker 1: would often be pushed to the side and running the vineyard.

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Speaker 1: But um gradually over time clearly that has changed. And

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Speaker 1: even in the eighteen nineties I thought this was a

419
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: pretty interesting around ten percent of California winemakers were women.

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Speaker 1: So we headed west and started making wine. And in

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Speaker 1: the past fifty years there has been a lot of progress,

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Speaker 1: especially starting in the nineteen sixties, women really began emerging

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Speaker 1: as prominent winemakers, owning wineries and assuming management positions outside

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Speaker 1: of those family ties. Yeah, in nineteen seventy three we

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Speaker 1: have Marianne Graff who becomes the first American woman to

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Speaker 1: graduate in analogy from a university. And moving forward up

427
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: to the nineteen nineties, we see the growth of women

428
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: in the ultra premium luxury wine industry. That sounds fancy.

429
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: I'm imagining them in totalnecks and blazers with the crests

430
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 1: on them. And don't forget like the elbow pad things. Oh,

431
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: some elbow pads. But in all seriousness, in Diane Nurray

432
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: became the first woman chairman of the Wine Institute since

433
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: it began in ninety four, and the same year Napa Valley,

434
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: Vin Nurse and Sonoma County Wineries Association also elected women

435
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: board presidents for the first time. And then in the

436
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: year two thousand, in the year two thousand, the first

437
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: woman was admitted to the world's oldest Bordeaux brotherhood, which

438
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: is called the Gerade of Saint Emilian. And that was

439
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: actually a really big deal because this brotherhood had been

440
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: around for centuries as a man only thing. Going back

441
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: to what the author of Women and Wine was talking

442
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: about in terms of wine being that longstanding beverage of

443
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: men of privilege, and they would have these drinking groups

444
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: kind of like if we think about cigar clubs where

445
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: you know, men go and like have cigars and expensive

446
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: scotch and such, and it would be the wine versions

447
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: of that. And finally in two thousand a woman was admitted, Yeah,

448
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: it's a shame that all that wine is going to

449
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: turn to vinegar. Well, and it's also a shame that

450
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: when she was interviewed about it. I don't have her

451
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 1: name in front of me, but when she was interviewed

452
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: about it and someone brought up feminism, she was quick

453
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: to dismiss it. She was, uh put off at the

454
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: idea that it had anything to do with gender equality whatsoever.

455
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's that. Yeah, well, I mean some now nowadays. Nowadays,

456
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: in the in the teen year, some of our most

457
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: prominent wine writers, importers, and winery owners are women. One

458
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: of those is Mary E and Mulligan, who's the president

459
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: of Manhattan's prestigious International Wine Center. And in terms of

460
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: taste making, small Yais are seeing more and more women

461
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: joining their ranks, possibly helped along by the those stereotypes

462
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: about women having those finer palettes and also just with

463
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: women having more interests and opportunities getting in there because

464
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: the somalia Is, I mean to talk about a niche occupation.

465
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: Um and Bloomberg reported earlier in that of the prestigious

466
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: Institute of Masters of Wine group in London, there are

467
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: now eighty seven women among the two hundred and eighties

468
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: seven worldwide masters living in twenty three countries, and in

469
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: both eleven and twelve there were more new female Masters

470
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: of Wine than male, and nowadays more than of Somalia's

471
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: or women. Although it hasn't always been an easy climb.

472
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: One Mave Pascuera, who's a wine director for several restaurants

473
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: in several states, says that it's basically taken women a

474
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: generation to work up through the ranks of Somalis because

475
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: they just faced such bad attitude. Yeah, she said, many

476
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: people used to think that I was just the hostess.

477
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: But a lot of people though, who are growing familiar

478
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: with women Smalia's working say that they actually prefer sometimes

479
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: women to be selecting and suggesting wines for their fine foods,

480
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: because they say that women tend to have a more

481
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: hospitable approach, which could actually help take some of the

482
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: snooty edge off of wine culture. Because I don't know

483
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: about you, Caroline, but it is rare that I would

484
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: find myself in a restaurant that would have a Smalley

485
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: right approach my table, at which point I would say,

486
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: I'll have the house read yeah. No. I actually just

487
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: had sort of an embarrassing moment the other night. I

488
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: was out at dinner, and you know, they're having the

489
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: right Okay, obviously I'm not in a restaurant with a

490
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,959
Speaker 1: Smalia either, but having the right server to kind of

491
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: walk you through, you know, if they know your preferences,

492
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: having a right person can make quite a different. It's

493
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: because the other night, my boyfriend I had this waiter

494
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: who was so like spastic and clearly not really paying

495
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: attention to what we were saying. He didn't really care

496
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: about us. He had these other big tables that he

497
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: was worried about, and he like rushes over and he's like, well,

498
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: you know, did you want a glass of wine or something,

499
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: or like a bottle? And I was like, well, yeah,

500
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: I was considering having a glass, And I mean he

501
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: just rushed me through the whole thing, and at the end,

502
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: I mean I got this wine that was just so

503
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: so I had no idea what I was drinking. And

504
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: so it can be nice to have, you know, a

505
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: kind uh empathetic, sympathetic person walking you through the wine list, right,

506
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: because when you know more about the wine, you appreciate

507
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: it more. It probably pairs better with the food, and

508
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: it makes the entire experience more pleasant and worth the

509
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: sixteen dollars plus that you're spending for that tiny bit

510
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: of liquid in that giant glass. I heard these so giant.

511
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I know why they are, but oh I

512
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: like the giant glass. I do too. I'm afraid I'm

513
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: going to break them. I do have a set of

514
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: really really nice like giant wine glasses that I do

515
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: not pour the recommended amount into. Fill it filled on up.

516
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: It's like the fish bowl fish bowl glasses a hurricane.

517
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: Sometimes you have fish bowl glass kinds of weeks. It

518
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: just happens. So that's about it for our conversation on

519
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: women and wine. We've looked at wine from the drinking

520
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: and sort of taking it back to the making and

521
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: the taste making of it. So now we want to

522
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: hear from women wine drinkers out there and men wine

523
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: drinkers too. Guys, do you like a white wine as

524
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: much as a broad shouldered cabernet. I love that description

525
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: for some reason, shoulders broad shouldered cabinet um and thoughts

526
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: as well on this normalization of not just the drinking

527
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: of wine, but the drinking of wine to excess. And

528
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: for Europeans listening to do we sound like a couple

529
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: of wine crude sitting here be because we're fretting a

530
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: little bit over having a glass a day. Well, to

531
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: be fair, I'm also calorie counting at the moment, So yeah,

532
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: I sometimes I just I put wine with you know, water,

533
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: just like well it's it's in its own calorie free category.

534
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: So with that, send us your thoughts. Mom Stuff at

535
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is where you can email us. You

536
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: can also message us on Facebook and tweet us at

537
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: Mom's Stuff podcast. And we've got a couple of messages

538
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: to share with you when we come right back from

539
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: a quick break. And now here's some letters. So I

540
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: got a couple of letters here in response to our

541
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: episode on Women and Negotiation, which was our kickoff to

542
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: our special four part series on lean In airing on Fridays,

543
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: which you should really check out if you haven't already.

544
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: And this first letter is from Rihanna. She writes, I

545
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: took a lot of psychology cla us is in college,

546
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: and in one of them, the graduate assistant passed out

547
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: a photo copied chapter of Women Don't Ask. It was

548
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: so eye opening to me that I've kept the chapter

549
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: ever since, and I've tried to actively fight my urge

550
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: to avoid confrontation and negotiate even though it scares me.

551
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: I have conflicting feelings on this, though, because as a millennial,

552
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: I've heard constantly over the past several years that I'm entitled, demanding, impatient,

553
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: and ambitiously disloyal. So the thought that maybe I just

554
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: expect more than I deserve it's kept me from negotiating

555
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: as much as I could, because I'm not sure I'm

556
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: really worth what I think I am. What do you

557
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: think about that conflict? Being a woman who, in perception

558
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: and reality probably doesn't know how to ask for what

559
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: she wants or deserves, as well as being a millennial

560
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: who's perceived as whiny and demanding and unrealistic. How do

561
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: we reconcile those two facts or perceptions. I think that

562
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: the way to reconcile that is to still follow those

563
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: four steps that we outlined in the Negotiation podcast on

564
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: how to really understand and evaluate your own worth and

565
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: make the approach without coming across as being too entitled

566
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: or demanding what you can't. You can't appear like you're

567
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: just out for yourself. You know, you have to express

568
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: your word not in a dollar figure, but you're worth

569
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: in terms of what you have contributed and what you

570
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: can contribute over and above um, and then you can

571
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: make it about the dollar figure exactly. I think that

572
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: making the collaborative approach, as we talked about in the

573
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: podcast will probably serve you doubly, not just as a woman,

574
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: but as a millennial woman. Yeah, and you know what

575
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: I mean, Like, I'm so tired of this millennial stuff,

576
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: Like it's just, you know, every older generation thinks the

577
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: generations below them are just idiots. So you're already, i

578
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: hate to say it, like fighting an uphill battle as

579
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: far as stereotypes go of this generation. So all of

580
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: uh to say, I mean, I didn't mean to sound

581
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: like all negative and jumpy about it, but you know,

582
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: all of that to say you kind of even have

583
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: to work a little bit harder at the negotiating table

584
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 1: to let them know that you are there for them.

585
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: You're there to make the company better. You're there to

586
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 1: you know, do the best job that you possibly can't

587
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: and really help them out with your impressive skill set. Um,

588
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, so they don't just think you're some college

589
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: kid coming to wine to them exactly. So good luck negotiating, Rihanna,

590
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: and thanks for writing in. And I have a letter

591
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: here from Cat. She says, I'm twenty three years old

592
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: and in the second job of my career. With my

593
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: first job right after graduating from college, I didn't even

594
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: try to negotiate my salary. I wasn't particularly confident in

595
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: my skills and was only slightly knowledgeable thanks to my

596
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: mom and information from salary dot com about how much

597
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: I should expect to make. I pushed back a bit

598
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: with my second and current job, but was shut down

599
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: almost immediately because of my relatively little amount of experience.

600
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: Within the first month, I've already gotten lots of feedback

601
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: that I've been doing such a great job and it's

602
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: only been getting better. I actually discussed this very topic

603
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: with a coworker yesterday and can kind of regret not

604
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: pushing back for more money, especially given all the positive

605
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: feedback I've been getting. My coworker and I were discussing

606
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: how long I should wait, if at all, until I

607
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: approach my lead for a potential raise, how to go

608
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: about doing it, et cetera. Whenever I decided to pull

609
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: the trigger on that deal, I'll definitely be keeping the

610
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: points you ladies made in mind, which is awesome. Cat.

611
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 1: I hope you, I wish you the best of luck,

612
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: and I hope you keep us posted. Yeah, and thanks

613
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: to everyone who's been keeping us posted with your emails.

614
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at discovery dot com is where you can

615
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: send them, and also connecting with us on Facebook and

616
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. You can also follow us

617
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: on tumbler stuff Mom Never Told You dot tumbler dot com,

618
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 1: as well as our wonderful Instagram. We are at stuff

619
00:37:54,800 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You. And speaking of negotiation and lean in,

620
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: don't forget This Friday is the fourth and final chapter

621
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: in our series all about Boston US, So tune in

622
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: for that and tune in as well to YouTube, where

623
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: you can check us out four times a week. YouTube

624
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: dot com, slash stuff, Mom Never Told You, and Don't

625
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 1: Forget Do you subscribe for more on this and thousands

626
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 1: of other topics doesn't, how stuffs dot com