1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Uh that's our super producer, 4 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: early one and only, Mr Max Williams. My name is 5 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: Ben And who who is that? Lovely man, I see 6 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: you on the other side of zoom call? Who is that? Who? Me? 7 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: Litto me? That's me Noel Brown. Um, that's the first 8 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: time I think I've said my last name on on 9 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: the show. Maybe it's not. My last name is in 10 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: fact Brown. I have a very distinct memory of being 11 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: in school and I actually would walk after school. Um. 12 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: It was in a little town called Augusta, Georgia, and 13 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: located in the downtown area, and we would walk after 14 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: school to the library and hang out there until our 15 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: parents were able to pick us up from the library. 16 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: And it was a big, beautiful marble building. And that 17 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: was when I first got into things like, uh, Michael 18 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: Crichton and Stephen King and Dean Coots, you know, all 19 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: the good trashy horror sci fi type stuff. And then 20 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: a little later things like Kurt Vonnegutt and all that. Man. 21 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure you have lovely library memories too, don't you. 22 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: I do, yes, I do know. I was a kid 23 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: who would do his best to live at libraries. Growing 24 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: up as an only child, I didn't have nor desire 25 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: any friends, so I would I would hang out and 26 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: the very very kind librarians that I hung out with 27 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: would just sort of make up chores and then give me, 28 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: give mean free books that they were going to get 29 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: rid of. Yeah, it was. It was really cool. Apprenticeship librarians. 30 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: If you are hearing this, first thank you for giving 31 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: you kids such wonderful summers. And secondly, I'm sorry that 32 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: I did not, in fact to grow up to be 33 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: a librarian. It's tough. You gotta get up masters in 34 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: library science. Like, if you see a librarian, be nice 35 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: to them because they're doing it's it's a passion project. Max. 36 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: What what about you, man? What's your what's your library vibe? Like? 37 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: Growing up? So, library vibe was a thing I I 38 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: I guess I had in my life. Um, you know, 39 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: we would go to the local library, especially back when 40 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: we live in Michigan more so, but you know, as 41 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: a kid, you know, as it was a free resource 42 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: for us to use. So you don't go there, get 43 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: down those really antiquated computers even for the time they 44 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: are antiquated, and you know, type into that really awful 45 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: search system to try to find something that never worked 46 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: and then go find it myself. Yeah. Yeah, with the 47 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: card catalog, that micro fish. We'll see you know, the 48 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: three of us and hopefully you fellow ridiculous historian. We 49 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: were really lucky to have those those childhood experiences in libraries. 50 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: But there was a time not too long ago when 51 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: our parents would have been seen as very irresponsible for 52 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: letting us get anywhere near a library. Because today's episode 53 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: is about something called the Great Book Scare, which seriously 54 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,119 Speaker 1: kept people out of libraries for almost fifty years. Yeah, 55 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: and it's not too far off from some of the 56 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: fears that we're dealing with right now in our post 57 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: COVID world. Because this was not a you know, banned 58 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: book situation. This was not a Farenheit forty one dystopian 59 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: future where like books were considered to be seditious or 60 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: in some ways, you know, infecting the minds of the youth. No, 61 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: this is about a different kind of infection, an actual 62 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: infection that you really could get several in fact, by 63 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: touching stuff small box scarlet fever and tuberculosis, the old triumvira. 64 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: So the idea of passing around community property or things 65 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: that were you know, borrowed and handled and passed around 66 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: the different folks was terrified. So it actually was an 67 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: attitude that persevered for around forty years. The idea that 68 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: even after these these diseases have been dealt with again, 69 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: like we're dealing with now, I think there are going 70 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: to be things that have happened as a result of 71 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: COVID that are going to continue to be with us 72 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: for some time. Oh absolutely. And we want to give 73 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: a shout out to Andrew McClary uh and his work 74 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Library History called but Where the 75 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: Deadly Books I've Forgotten? Episode in Library History. This has 76 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: also been written about in Bustle, in Smithsonian mag and 77 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: in Mental Floss. You nailed it well, You absolutely nailed it. 78 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: For people who remember the early stages of the coronavirus pandemic, 79 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: one thing you probably heard pretty often was speculation about 80 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: how long the virus could remain on a given surface, 81 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: how long it could remain not metal versus paper, versus 82 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: wood versus plastic, things like that, And people thought during 83 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: a number of diseases and public health epidemics. People were 84 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: certain that books could be a vector for disease. Our 85 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: story really starts well the guy named W. F. Pool. 86 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: He was a librarian in Chicago, and he was at 87 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: a library director's meeting in eighteen seventy nine when he said, 88 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: I've heard people asking whether books can transmit disease as 89 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: effectively as any other inanimate object. No one really knew 90 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: the answer, and no one had really heard of the 91 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: question before at this meeting. So old WF. Mr Pool 92 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: writes to the foremost medical authorities in the United States, 93 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: and then he also writes to librarians at the largest 94 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: libraries in the country, and he asked them the same question. 95 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,239 Speaker 1: He gets nineteen replies, and only one person was ever 96 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: able to say that at least heard of a disease 97 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,119 Speaker 1: being transmitted by a book. It was Surgeon General Dr 98 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: John S. Billings, who didn't confirm this had happened. He said, 99 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, I heard about something kind of like this, 100 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: maybe in London. And then the other eighteen people who 101 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: right back, they say, well, I guess it could happen, 102 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: but it doesn't seem likely. You know a lot of 103 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,239 Speaker 1: these people are librarians. They're like, I deal with books 104 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: all the time, and I don't have smallpox, I don't 105 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: have scarlet fever, so maybe. And then some doctors come 106 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: in and they're trying to sort of so in the 107 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: middle ground right there, saying, Okay, well how about this. 108 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: If you're a lie brarian, don't loan books out to 109 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: people who you know have smallpox or tuberculosis, where as 110 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: you said, well scarlet fever, just don't give books to 111 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: houses that have those people living in them, exactly. And 112 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: then we have Dr Henry Lyman, who is coming out 113 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: against this and saying he's with Chicago's Rush Medical College, uh, 114 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: and he's coming out and saying that this is absolutely 115 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: much ado about nothing. People are overreacting. He kind of 116 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: snidely suggests hiring somewhere in the neighborhood of fifteen thousand 117 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: quote sanitary policemen um to uh literally guard people from 118 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: entering these infected homes and to deliver children to uh 119 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: school in these glass cages, and to personally sterilize any 120 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: of that's passing through the US postal system. But that 121 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: was it. He didn't he didn't really do very good 122 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: job of quieting people's concerns because newspapers were all over 123 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: this and they were doing some serious fear mongering, uh 124 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: and specifically targeting these these disease spreading books. This is 125 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: from Smithsonian Magazine, by the way, a fabulous article about 126 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: the Great book Scare by Joseph Hayes. Were highly recommend 127 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: checking it out in its entirety. We also have a 128 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: really telling quote from the Chicago Tribune that was published 129 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: on June eighteen, seventy nine talking about contracting all sorts 130 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: of diseases from these books. Um, you know, admittedly saying 131 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: that the chances were small, and also it all depended 132 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: on the publication. You know, it's as far as the 133 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: level of like fear mongering that was happening, um, but 134 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: that it couldn't be ruled out certainly was possible, which 135 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: you could argue was was was relatively um, thoughtful journalism, 136 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: was relatively responsible way of reporting this. But then on 137 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: November twelve, eighty six, you have the Perrysburg Journal saying 138 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: that books quote, books are one of the items to 139 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: be removed from the rooms of the sick. Uh. So 140 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: he's starting to pass around these little details. And then 141 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: the Ohio Democrats, says in the most extreme version of 142 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: really trying to rop people up about this. The disease 143 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: referring to scarlet fever has been spread by circulating libraries. 144 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: Picture books have been taken therefrom to amuse the patients 145 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: and returned without being disinfected. Wowsers might sound a little 146 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: silly now, but we have to we have to remember 147 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: that here at the beginning of the twentieth century, for 148 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people, life was terrified. The leaguing cause 149 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: of death in the United States was tuberculosis, which they 150 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: called either like consumption, white death or white plague. This 151 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: disease was killing around about this time, This disease was 152 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: killing four hundred and fifty people in the country a day, 153 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: and they were across the gamut of ages fifteen to 154 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: forty four, and they were already really concerned about an incurable, 155 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: potentially fatal disease. And the idea of library books, which 156 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: was a very affordable, wonderful means of self education. Uh, 157 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: the idea that these could become a vector for disease 158 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: seemed very plausible and very real. And this is strange 159 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of stuff that a lot of 160 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: people were touching on a daily basis, handles, right, robs, 161 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: things like that, and so library books got singled out 162 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: for a specific reason. The idea was that because library 163 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: books have multiple pages and every page is to surfaces, 164 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: that it could trap germs. They were aware of germ 165 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: theory that it could trap germs in pages, and that 166 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: when you open the book to like when you open 167 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: a book and you get that nice old book or 168 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: new book smell, that you could be inhaling germs just 169 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: as easily. Or someone could be reading and they could 170 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: put uh cough, I guess sort of like a frog 171 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: in that example, onto the paper and then that would 172 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: hold the germs. Also, let's not forget public libraries kind 173 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: of a new thing, because the public could be anybody. 174 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: That's very true. Um, it's very true. It's very very 175 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: helpful resource for the community. But it's truely that you 176 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: can't really exclude people, which probably really riled up members 177 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: of the upper crust that maybe thought that sort of 178 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: the unwashed masses could potentially have handled a book that 179 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: would then be passed on to, like, you know, their 180 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: child or spouse or whatever, although many of them probably 181 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: couldn't be bothered to go to a public librries because 182 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: they would have their own libraries, you know, in their 183 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: in their palatial estates. But then wouldn't a lot of 184 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: this have to do with a very um distinct misunderstanding 185 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: of how disease vectors work and how long they're able 186 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: to survive on surfaces and things like that. Yeah, yeah, 187 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: and not all diseases are created the same way. It 188 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: was interesting because public libraries, like we said, they're kind 189 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: of new, so there are a lot of questions that 190 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: people have about them. You don't really know who checked 191 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: out the book before you. You might see a name 192 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: written on the inside jacket in some cases, you know, 193 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: with a little card, but you don't know that person 194 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: from Adam. You don't know them from a can of paint. 195 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: And there was this cool article Smithsonian mag Quotes from 196 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: Night that was titled books as Disease Carriers from eighteen 197 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: eighty to nineteen twenty, and people were worried that not 198 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: only might they get these this trifective terrible diseases by 199 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: inhaling book dust, but people were also worried they could 200 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: get can sir, like someone had cancer. They read a book, 201 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: You read the same book and boom, you have you 202 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: have cancer. Now you have cancer, and you're being punished 203 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: because you wanted to learn more about Shakespeare. That's what 204 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: you get. That's your Midsummer's night dream. But this was 205 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: this was alarmist, right, Um, this was alarmist. But again 206 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: because people really were dying, and because libraries and the 207 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: idea of commonly shared books across a large population was 208 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: a relatively new idea, this took hold. Concerns started in 209 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: the US. But let's go back to our Surgeon General 210 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: who said, I may have heard of a case like 211 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: this at some point in London. People in England started 212 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: having the same concerns around at the same time, at 213 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: least according to Anaka Man, who's a professor Arizona State 214 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: University and an author about this very event, reading contagion, 215 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: the hazards of reading in the age of it. And 216 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: then we really start to see this very reactionary UH 217 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: legislation start to sweep the United Kingdom that was really 218 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: trying to address what they saw as a very very 219 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: serious public health problem. UH. And so they passed this 220 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: collection of laws called the Public Health Act of eighteen 221 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: seventy five, And while it didn't specifically list library books 222 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: or target the public library. It very specifically had this 223 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: language in it. Quote it prohibited lending or borrowing, quote 224 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: betting clothing, rags or other things that had been exposed 225 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: to infection. So I think you see where this is going. 226 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: Other things, it's about as broad as as you can imagine. 227 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: Uh language too to get right. Other things is it's 228 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: easy to interpret it. The other things are anything that 229 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: is not explicitly betting clothing or rags. Seven, they update 230 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: this beautile, full little law by saying, if you are suspected, 231 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: not proven, but suspected of having an infectious disease, you 232 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: cannot borrow, lend, or return library books. You'll get fined 233 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: up to forty shillings for each offense. That's around two 234 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: oder bucks. So this is this is not small pocket 235 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: money for a lot of people. And we know that 236 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: this we we have this specific language of the law. 237 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: We know that in the US there they were also 238 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: trying to prevent the spread of epidemics through book lending. 239 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: But being the US at this time, there wasn't a 240 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: federal level law at this point, it was a state 241 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: level thing, and most of according to mand most of 242 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: the anxiety was centered around the concept of the book, 243 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: the concept of the shared book, the concept of the library, 244 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: which means, you know, who becomes kind of public enemy 245 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: number one librarians. That's right, the librarian. All along this 246 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: this did a worse public image number for librarians than Ghostbusters. Right, 247 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: it's I'm I'm laughing because every single librarian that I've 248 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: had the privilege meeting has has been a wonderful, knowledgeable 249 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: and and passionate person. So of course, and you know, 250 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: not to be put to find a point on the pun, 251 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: but a bit bookish, So a little interview. Are they're 252 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: out there doing God's work? There's no question, um yeah. 253 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: And they also the time has got a bad rap 254 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: for being a little pedantic and shushy. But again I 255 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: blame Ghostbusters for that. Remember the shush It was like 256 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: the opening scenes, like the cold open of the movie. 257 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: And then that's one of the biggest jump scares that 258 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: to this day still kind of freaks me out when 259 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: she finally does the final shush and they don't shush, 260 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: and uh, she turns into a spooky muppet monster and 261 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: flies right at the screen and the Ghostbusters titles. I 262 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: also want to shout out what a favorite. Since we're 263 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: in that era film, I want to shout out one 264 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: of my favorite librarian scenes in Indiana Jones and the 265 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: Last Crusade when they're trying to get into the catacot 266 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: that's hidden in that library and there's that librarian who 267 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: temporarily thinks he has this amazing book stamp, because that's 268 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: when India is not going to lose. It was just 269 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: it was just a good It was it was a 270 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: good It was a good spot. But what do you 271 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: prefer Last Crusade or uh, Temple of Doom? Last Crusade? 272 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: What about Raiders? What do you write before really quickly 273 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: this is important stuff? Yeah, and uh, I want to 274 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: use my lifeline to phone of friends here to get 275 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: Max's opinion as well as your own. For me, Last Crusade, 276 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: I that that is far and away my favorite, and 277 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: then maybe Raiders. Actually, Temple of Doom is a little 278 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: bit lower for me because although I love the the 279 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: cult aspect and there's a little bit of supernatural in 280 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: there as well, I don't know, even as a kid, 281 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: the stuff they got wrong culturally kind of like, oh yeah, 282 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: did not age well? The monkey brains and baby snakes 283 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: and stuff and just that's that definitely didn't age well 284 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: for me. I would say it would be Raiders. I'm sorry, 285 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: it would be uh, Last Crusade Raiders mainly because of 286 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: Sean Connery playing Indie's father. I love his role. And 287 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: then Temple of Doom. Third, how about you, Max Um, 288 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: I have only seen Get Out WHOA do not ostracize? 289 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: We get pottery shards. No, Max says, we're gonna do 290 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: what we're gonna get. We're gonna get together, We're gonna 291 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: watch Last Crusade. It's awesome. But what about the crystal 292 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: skull That doesn't even that doesn't even rank that that 293 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: one does, that's not even in the conversation. Yeah, I 294 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: don't knew that. I knew that would set you guys off. Okay, 295 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: you know there's some stuff about the crystal skulls I liked. 296 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to spoil it. But yeah, 297 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't consider that cannon. Actually, but 298 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: we want to hear your rank. It's what I um, 299 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: we named the doll Indiana. Anyway, these books, you know, 300 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: like Standard Delivery where he says these kids, Uh, this 301 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: this idea of librarians being victimized of people in the 302 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: US and people in England being already kind of anxious 303 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: of the possibility that books might spread subversive or obscene ideas. 304 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: This this is a perfect storm. But just like the 305 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: weird advice you may have gotten about groceries, in the 306 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: beginning of the coronavirus pandemic, people started trying to figure 307 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: out ways to disinfect books. There is, um, there's a 308 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: library in Sheffield, England, then plays a disinfection technique in 309 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: using get this, carbolic acid crystals heated in an oven. Oh, 310 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: that sounds scary. That sounds a little overdone, doesn't It 311 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: sounds like could take the top layer of skin off 312 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: while it disinfected you. Um, that's wild carbolic acid. Okay, 313 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: I'm no uh chemist, but that definitely sounds like a 314 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: little bit extreme. And in eighteen eight Great Britain was 315 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: in the throes of a serious smallpox epidemic. And we 316 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: do know that smallpox was insanely communicable, I mean really 317 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: really virulent and transmit transmittable. Um, so you know some 318 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: of the stuff maybe wasn't overkilled like I mean, we 319 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: know that polio, for example, was something that could be 320 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: transmitted to children through dolls or you know, like clothes 321 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: and bedding and things like that. You see in uh 322 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: period dramas a lot of times through that period where 323 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: they had to like take everything out and burn it, 324 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, not just uh disinfected. It was that much 325 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: of a panic. So I understand where all this is 326 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: coming from. But as it starts to kind of, you know, 327 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: outlive the pandemic itself, it starts to get a little interesting. Yeah. Yeah, 328 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: and again you know, we're not ridiculing these people. These 329 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: were genuine concerns and ASNAL said, smallpox very dangerous here. 330 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: So people started giving the authorities list of all infected 331 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: people that might have been interacting with the library. This 332 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: is what we know now is contact tracing, and then 333 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: they would find these folks and sees their books. If 334 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: they weren't borrowing any books, then they would say, you 335 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: can't borrow any other ones until your entire household is 336 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: disease free. Back to w F Pool, he's still on 337 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: the case. He is investigating the subject. He finds nine 338 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: more doctors who say they know of diseases transmitted by books. 339 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: One guy reports scarlet fever spread by book and letter 340 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: to people the president of the Tennessee Word of Health 341 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: and the Secretary of Massachusetts Board of Health site cases 342 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: of smallpox spread by books. Professor Josephie Winters in City 343 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: University of New York's Medical College says, you know what, 344 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: we shouldn't remove people's right to knowledge. But if we 345 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: have infected patients, let's just give them, you know, not 346 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: the best books. Let's give them the kind of books 347 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: we can just destroy after they're done with them, the 348 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: kind that won't make the library the worse for wear. 349 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: And he's another ascid guy. Well, he's like, you know 350 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: what we should do to disinfect books? He looks around, 351 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: He's like, you, guys, sulfuric acid gas. Right, we can 352 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: we can only picture there's some there's some other people 353 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: in the meeting where they're like, damn, Dr Winners, why 354 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: do you keep pushing sulfuric acid gas is your solution 355 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: for everything? I like to picture that. He was always 356 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: pitching that maybe he had like a sideline and gas. 357 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: What do you think? I don't know, man, It sounds 358 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: like a secret satist. And it's a weird one though, man, 359 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: because you know, even as they were doing this, they 360 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: were they were comparing registers of the infected to library 361 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: registers or you know, those with library cards and excluding 362 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: people from checking out books. It still didn't really quell 363 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: the like public you know, panic around it and the 364 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: library system with like it was, like you said, Ben 365 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: was still relatively new, was really starting to take a hit, 366 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: and it really kind of got what could have been 367 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: it's death blow UM in h eight in Nebraska when 368 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: a woman named Jesse Allen died of the consumption. And 369 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: this is something that happened all the time around you know, 370 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: in that period. It was you know, again like it's 371 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: something you see in in in period dramas all the time. 372 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: People that and then you pull away the nap napkin 373 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: or the hanky, and of course there's blood in it. Um. 374 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: But this woman that happened to be the librarian or 375 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: a library and at the Omaha Public Library, and with 376 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: no real proof, public opinion assumed that her death, uh, 377 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: they they ascribed it to the idea that she got 378 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: it from an infected book. And we have a report 379 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: from October of eight from the Library Journal UM that 380 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: was published by the American Library Association. The death of 381 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: miss Jesse Allen is doubly sad because of the excellent 382 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: reputation which her work one for her, and the pleasant 383 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: affection which all librarians who knew her had come to 384 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: feel for her, and because her death has given rise 385 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: to a fresh discussion as to the possibility of infection 386 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: from contagious diseases through library books. See, this is like 387 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: the kind of thing we've talked about recently on stuff 388 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: they Don't want you to know, our other podcasts. How 389 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, you could argue that this is editorializing, right, 390 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: This is the person is putting forth this notion is 391 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: like planting the seed of infected library books, and that's 392 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: all it takes. There's no scientific evidence here that that's 393 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: what the cause was. It was just talking about. Now 394 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: the conversation has started again around infected library book. There 395 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: was already one that had been, you know, very much happening, 396 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: So it kind of pushed things over the cliff, didn't it. Yeah. 397 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: I think you're right, no, because it's almost as if 398 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: the zeitgeist was waiting for a librarian specifically to die 399 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: right now, and all of a sudden supports the logic 400 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: of this idea. And we know that the Library Journal 401 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: tried to quell or at least temper people's concerns, because 402 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: they went on to say the following in the same article. 403 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: Possibly there's some danger from this source. Since the bacillus 404 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: was discovered, danger is found to lurk in places hitherto unsuspected. 405 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: But the greater danger perhaps comes in overestimating this source 406 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: of danger and frightening people into a nervous condition. That is, again, 407 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: like I said, with that, it could happen, but it's unlikely. 408 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: Type of journalism, it's probably be a little more measured 409 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: and maybe a little less grabby and click baity, you know, 410 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: the historical equivalent of click bay. But I would say 411 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: this is the more measured and thoughtful approach. But people 412 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: don't usually glom onto the more measured and thoughtful approach 413 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: to their They don't, that's right. Uh. Despite good faith efforts, 414 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: public libraries were unable to get this concern founded or unfounded, 415 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 1: out of the public mind, and people kept going in 416 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: the media and in you know, dinner and table conversation. 417 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: The fear just escalated. And for all our fellow ridiculous 418 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: historians who are asking, well, when did they start burning 419 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: the books? Now is the time? In this story, it 420 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: wasn't like people were already sterilizing books with chemicals by 421 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen hundreds, But eventually this escalated such that in 422 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: Britain and in the US, people were burning books to 423 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: prevent what they feared would be the spread of disease, 424 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: and numerous doctors recommended that people burn contaminated quote unquote 425 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: contaminated books. This was even featured in the Library Journal itself, 426 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: a trade publication for librarians. It was like, hey, sometimes 427 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, I know you're a librarian, but sometimes you 428 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: got to burn the book. Yeah, And it just got 429 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: weirder ben um where they were literally beginning to do, 430 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: you know, they didn't have the technology or the medical 431 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: knowledge to truly trace these contagions sometimes, you know, especially 432 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: if it was just suspected, you know, or again because 433 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: of the how long do things actually stay viable, you know, 434 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: when they're in a dry situation, like pressed between the 435 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: pages of a book. It's not the same as like 436 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: having like anthrax in a book. It's not just gonna 437 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: like pop out at you like an envelope of anthrax, 438 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: and then the spores that are live are gonna like 439 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: go all over the room and like infect everybody. I 440 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: mean these things, if placed there by an infected person, 441 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: they cannot live. They kind of cannot remain viable in 442 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, forever, right, so they kind of the awareness 443 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: was there that we need to do a little more 444 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: research than this, but it just got so bizarre. Nineteen 445 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: eleven and an article called the Disinfection of Books, this 446 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: hysteria was absolutely uh escalated and pushed to the next level. 447 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: This was by lb nice Uh and published in the 448 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: Bulletin of the Medical Library Association. He said, books seem 449 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: well adapted for carrying smallpox, measles, scarlet fever, trachoma, diphtheria, 450 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: arrest less dysentery, typhoid, and tuberculosis. Yet so far as 451 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: I have been able to find, no satisfactory method for 452 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: the disinfection of books is being used anywhere in this country. 453 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: Books are a particular diverse version of invalids and convalescence. 454 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: In other words, saying that people that are like in 455 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: the hospital have nothing to do past the time but 456 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,479 Speaker 1: read books. Therefore they are in much danger of becoming 457 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: infective they being the books. So yeah, I mean, really 458 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: fanning the flames here. He goes on to say, besides 459 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: the danger of contamination in these ways, and in the 460 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: ordinary handling of a book, many people persist in the 461 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: uncleanly habits of moistening their fingers in their mouths when 462 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: turning the page leaves, which is gross. It's on board, 463 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: that's gross. But so uh yeah, this is this feels 464 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: like an escalation and worry, but again it's coming from 465 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: good intentions. One scientist, William R. Rennick, says, Okay, let's 466 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: figure out if that really works. So he cuts out 467 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: the dirtiest parts of pages from very well used library books, 468 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: mixes the paper with silin center, fugues the liquid, and 469 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: and injects it into forty guinea pigs. According to him, 470 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: all forty of his test subjects died of Strep, tuberculosis 471 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: and sepsis. And then other people were conducting experiments giving 472 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: monkeys a drink of milk on a platter of what 473 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: was thought to be contaminated literature. All these experiments, like 474 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: you said, Nolan, real weird, But they came to one conclusion. 475 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: The risk of infection from a book might be very small, 476 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: but it couldn't be completely ruled out. We already knew 477 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: that just from like speculation. You have to imagine you 478 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: have to mess with the poor guinea pigs. I hate 479 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: that me too, man mean too. And so, eventually, luckily 480 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: for readers around the world, your faithful host included, people 481 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: began to say, look, is this just kind of an 482 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: outbreak of public hysteria and fear because we feel powerless 483 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: in the face of some of these um infections and maladies. Librarians, 484 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: someone finally points out, aren't getting sick more often than 485 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: people with other jobs, and so librarians begin to address 486 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: the panic directly. In New York, people started objecting to 487 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: the idea of having books disinfected. The panic began to 488 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: subside in Britain because experiment after experiment found the same thing, 489 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: that you have very little chance of getting one of 490 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: these diseases from a book, and so the panic finally 491 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: came to an end, sort of mostly caveat asterix because 492 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: we know how people are. As late as nineteen thirteen, 493 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: the Highland Recorder, a newspaper in Virginia, said public library 494 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: books may scatter scarlet fever. In the nineteen forties, people 495 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: in the UK and even Japan, and we're still saying, well, 496 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: what if books could give you a disease? Luckily for 497 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: all of us, that seems you might as well win 498 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: the lottery, at least the way these folks were thinking 499 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: of it. And nol I think that brings us to 500 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: like our last question of the day. We can't be 501 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: the only ones they do this. I gotta ask you 502 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: how dirty your library books? Actually, it's a good question, Ben, 503 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: and we do have something of an answer from infectious 504 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: disease specialist Michael Z. David Um who was quoted by 505 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal and a piece that we found 506 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: through a Mental Philoss article, how many degrees of Kevin 507 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: Bacon is that? Um? He said that virus isn't. Bacteria 508 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: can live in the pages of library books, but the 509 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: risk of infection is very very low. Libraries today do 510 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: still clean their books, and in the same way that 511 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: like you clean bowling shoes, right, I mean, it's just 512 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: kind of a thing you do with anything that's like 513 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: passed around. It's it's it's just it's just good practice, 514 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: good good, good standard operating procedure. At the Boston Library, 515 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: Mental Floss reported, Uh, the books go through what is 516 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: sort of amounts to kind of like a tiny car 517 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: wash conveyor belt. Obviously it's not wetting them. That would 518 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: totally ruin the books. But it's just to remove dust 519 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: from the pages and dust you know, as we know, 520 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: oftentimes it's like dead skin cells and all kinds of 521 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: things get mixed up in dusts. You know, there's certainly 522 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: if you have you have you ever taken a big 523 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: old whiff of dust and sucked it down your throat? 524 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: I mean, God knows what's in there, and you certainly, uh, 525 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna feel very good after you've done that, 526 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: a because it like really hurts, It goes down your 527 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: throat and you kind of feel it in your lungs 528 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: and be because there could be some you know, contaminants 529 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: in there, There's no question about it. Um. But library 530 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: books can have some nasty things hiding in those pages. 531 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: And Belgians and TOWRRP Public Library did a test and 532 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: found traces of cocaine and herpes. That's fair. But what 533 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: we talked about, Ben, We've said this many times in 534 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: the past. A money, Money is the grossest thing ever 535 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: and the most community you know, uh item that we 536 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: pass around, and money oftentimes has high instances of having 537 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: cocaine traces, and traces is the the operating word here 538 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: because these were minuscule amounts and Antwerp is apparently quite 539 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: the drug trafficking epicenter. But it doesn't that doesn't really 540 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: account for the herpes. Yeah, well, it's definitely not enough 541 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: cocaine to get you uh high, or it's enough herpes 542 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,479 Speaker 1: virus to give you herpes. Also, I love you point 543 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: that out. It's one of my favorite statistics. A ton 544 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: of paper currency is you do only to worry about cocaine. 545 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: You don't even worry about coronavirus. That stuff is riddled 546 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: with human feces. Like, uh, this is the gross out 547 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: fact for the day. Apologies to any of the many 548 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: awesome educators who are playing today's episode for your classroom, 549 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: but your kids are gonna love this. Uh. It is 550 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: virtually certain that you have encountered traces of human feces 551 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: if you have touched any paper US currency. If that 552 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: makes you want to wash your hands right now, please 553 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: get the into a washroom because it will be worth it. 554 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: But I'm just so glad you know that libraries are 555 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: still around right now. Mission I think it was Michigan 556 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: asked people not to microwave their books because the coronavirus. Right, 557 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,919 Speaker 1: but it will it won't kill it. Well, not only 558 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: will it not kill it, they were asking for specific 559 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 1: reason because the new way of cataloging library books is 560 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 1: through these little like scannable r F I D chips 561 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: which contain ding ding ding metal. But then in the 562 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: microwave it will cause the book to burst into flames. 563 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: So yes, good note, don't microwave your books. That's one 564 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: of the other takeaway. Uh. And this, uh, this will 565 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: wrap our episode for today. We want to hear your stories, 566 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, no, Max, do you think we have some 567 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: librarians in the audience, folks with their masters in library science? 568 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: Holly fry of stuff that you missed in history class. 569 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: If I'm not mistaken, in the past life was a librarian. Amazing, amazing. Uh. 570 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: So thank you to all the librarians, not just you, 571 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: but thank you to all the scientists. Thank you to 572 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: all the bibliophiles in the crowd today. And thanks to 573 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: our super producer Max Williams, who, to our knowledge has 574 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: never microwaved a book. Right, Max, don't put it. Don't 575 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: leave us hanging here? What wow? Okay, alright, moving on, 576 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: Thanks to Alex Williams, who can post our track. Our 577 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: soundtrack can't me to his book Microwaving Habits either, But 578 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: I know he's a avid, voracious reader, so I have 579 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: a hard time believing that he would ever do something 580 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: so offensive to to the written word. Huge thanks to 581 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 1: Christopher Osciotis here in Spirit. Eve's Jeff co who actually 582 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: you know what. She recently left the company UM to 583 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: pursue adventures on her own, and we love you and 584 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,280 Speaker 1: we will miss you very much. Ease look for great 585 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: things from her in the future. She's a really awesome 586 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 1: person and we're very proud of her and has never 587 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: left our hearts. Speaking of that, we did mention in 588 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: a previous episode that I think all three of us 589 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: kind of miss our old nemesses who has infected our 590 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 1: hearts and minds. Jonathan Strickland a k. The Quister, look 591 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: forward to hearing from him very soon. And with that, 592 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: Noel next Paklin the Curtain. I think I'm gonna I 593 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: think I'm gonna go find an isolated part of this 594 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: uh of the situation and and go dig into a book. 595 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: I think it's a smart idea, gets you a nice 596 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: beach read on. We'll see you next time. Flix For 597 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: more podcast from my heart Radio, visit the I heart 598 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 599 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: favorite shows.