1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: I'm editor Candice Gibson, joined by staff write Josh Clark. Hi. There, 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: I just thought you yawn and I was about to 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: say pardon. You know, Actually I was trying not to 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: laugh at Jerry. I was trying. She she went three two. 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: It was kind of cute. Our producer Jerry just did that. 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: We love her. Yeah. So, um, all right, Candice, you ready? Yeah, 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: make the heart symbol. Um. I was reading pardon Watch 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: have you heard of this? I hadn't either. Actually, I 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: was actually preparing for this podcast because I had noticed 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: that I was needing to hydrate my skin a little more, 13 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: which means one thing. It's getting to be pardoned season. Yeah, 14 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: apparently pardons come hard and fast most in the late fall, 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: early winner the president's finals term. Really, yeah, well, that's 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: when they come the most. Traditionally, I mean, a president 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: can offer a pardon any time of the year, but 18 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: usually they're done in the fall. Uh and uh, the 19 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: most come at the end of a president's term. Like 20 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: you said, right, that makes sense to me. You know, 21 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: it's October, you're walking through Bloomingdale's. The Christmas trees are up, 22 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: and you're thinking about, you know, the Season of forgiveness. 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: Actually kind of I suspect that that does have a 24 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: little something to do with it, to tell you the truth. Yeah, yeah, so, 25 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: Um I was. I was trying to figure out who 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: George Bush might forgive or offer the Season of forgiveness 27 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: to this year, right, I don't know she She wasn't 28 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: on this list. This is from the Empty wheelblog, which 29 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: again hadn't heard of until I started googling pardon predictions, 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite things to do. But 31 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: they had some pretty good ones on there. Um. There 32 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: were some that were fairly obvious. One for Karl Rove, 33 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: which just kind of be a blanket pardon for anything 34 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: he might be convicted of in in the future. Um. 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: Scooter Libby was one, although no, no, no, we'll get 36 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 1: into that. We'll use him as a great example because 37 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: he is a good example of what canon can't be done. 38 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: Um Alberto Gonzalez obviously, Um Rumsfeld was. In addition, somebody 39 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: posted a comment and said Rumsfeld um not abram Off though, 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: and the reason that the person who predicted um of 41 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: whether or not he these people would be pardon, said 42 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: because abram Off was a snitch. So it doesn't think that, uh, 43 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: that George Bush will play ball with abram Off, but 44 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: they do think he'll play ball with Roger Clemens. Yeah, 45 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: And then they they were serious, They said that they 46 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: think Clemens may get a pardon from Bush because Bush 47 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: is a baseball guy. He used to be the Uh, 48 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: I think that the managing owner of the Texas Rangers 49 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: for a while. Did you know that? I did not? So, Um, 50 00:02:58,080 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: this is these are just a few of the people 51 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: who we may see get pardons in the future. And 52 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: a pardon is a funny thing. I don't know if 53 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: it's that funny, well funny and that it's kind of strange. 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: There's a lot of moving pieces to a pardon, and 55 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: on a very simple level, it's when a president excuses 56 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: someone for an affront to the United States. It's never 57 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: for a local crime, of state crime, anything like that. 58 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: It has to be to United States as a whole, 59 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: and you can apply it for a pardon. Apparently, like 60 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: they get applications for pardons, and in the nineteen eighties 61 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: there was even a position formed for someone who would 62 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: review the pardons and research the person and see if 63 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: he or she had been an upstanding citizen until this point, 64 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: and help inform the president about whether or not this 65 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: person deserved a pardon. And a pardon is is granged 66 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: exclusively by the presidents. It's something that Congress can't override. 67 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: It's it's actually an Article two section to the Constitution, 68 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: and I have this wasn't an amendment, No, and written 69 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: to the Constitution. Here's what it says. The President shall 70 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: have the power to grant reprieved and pardons for offences 71 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: against the United States except and here's the big except 72 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: in cases of impeachment. And it's about checks and balances 73 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: here too. Because the president himself or herself can be impeached, 74 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: he or she cannot pardon someone who's impeached. Does that 75 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: make sense, Yeah, totally it does. And that's actually the 76 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: Congress didn't come up with that impeachment part. The whole 77 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: thing goes back to English common law, the progative English kings. Yes, 78 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: the the English Kings originally had the power to pardon 79 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: anybody for anything at any time, no questions. I asked, Uh, 80 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: they could release somebody from jail, they could keep their 81 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: head off the chopping block UM. And then finally, I 82 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: think in the seventeenth or eighteenth century Um Parliament was 83 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: able to finagle their way into making that one imposition 84 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: that you a pardon doesn't have any effect on an 85 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: active impeachment. Right. That happened during King Charles the Seconds Rain, 86 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: and this was a model for the framers of the Constitution, 87 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: and it really split the framers in half, you know, ideologically, 88 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: because some of them thought that America was based on 89 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: the principle of being different from a monarchy and that 90 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: the president shouldn't have this sort of power like the king. 91 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: And George Mason was one of the staunch opponents. By 92 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: the other hand, Alexander Hamilton was one of the staunch advocates. 93 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: And the reason why it wasn't that that Hamilton's was just, 94 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, some lackey to all future presidents. He had 95 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: a really good reason and and he argued it in 96 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: the Federalist Papers number seventy four, and he says that 97 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: it's a great idea to have a pardon because that 98 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: power could actually be used to quell rebellion or insurrection 99 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: um on a massive scale, right in the event of 100 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: a national crisis, and ironically enough, just after Washington came 101 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: into power, I think, in he had to issue a 102 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: presidential pardon to farmers who had been a part of 103 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: the insurruction the costs of Whiskey rebellion. Yeah, there was 104 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: a huge tax levied on corn crops um and these 105 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: farmers revolted against this tax. Uh, And basically it was 106 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: a rebellion there. They were armed and they were not 107 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: happy at all. Um and Washington basically negotiated an end 108 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: of this rebellion by saying, look, if you guys go 109 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: back to your farms, we'll talk about the tax. And 110 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: I'm not entirely certain what happened with the tax, but 111 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: if you guys lay down your arms and go back 112 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: to life as farmers, will forget this whole thing, ever happened. 113 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: And he did it by issuing a pardon, and it 114 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: worked as well. And that sounds to me almost like 115 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: something that's called a conditional pardon, And that's when you 116 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: agree to pardon someone but you get something in return, 117 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: and pardoning someone actually falls under the more general blanket 118 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: of clemency. And there's a couple of different pieces to 119 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: this as well. So we've got commutation a part on 120 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: a conditional pardon remission and roust fit. Yeah. Now, um, 121 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: commutation is what George Bush did for Scooter Livy, which 122 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: is why he would still be eligible for pardon. Commutation 123 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: is basically shortening a sentence, doing away with a fine. 124 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: There there. You know, any any sentence that's been levied 125 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: against you, so long as it was levied by a 126 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: federal court, Um, it can be commuted. So let's say 127 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: you're in jail for you were sentenced for ten years, 128 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: and the President commuter sentence to five. You just serve 129 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: five years and then after that year out. And this 130 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: also happened in the case of Patty Hurst as well. 131 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen seventies. This was a granddaughter of 132 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: the publishing magnate William Hurst, and she got caught up 133 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: with cult and supposedly was brainwashed and convinced to go 134 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: and uh conduct this huge bank robbery. And her sentence 135 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: was commuted by Jimmy Carter. I think, what does she 136 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: sort of like two of ten years or seven of 137 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: ten years? I believe so. So, yeah, Carter commuted her sentence, 138 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: and then later on he talked to President Clinton into 139 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: issuing a full pardon, which he did so. Yeah, Petty 140 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: Hurst is a pretty famous example. There's um So that 141 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: was also a commutation and a pardon. The big distinction 142 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: between a commutation and a pardon is if a sentence 143 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: is commuted, you may be released from prison or something 144 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: like that, or let out of fun. Right, if somebody 145 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: looks up your records they find that you are a 146 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: convicted felon. Right, with a pardon, it basically restores you 147 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: to the state of grace that you enjoyed right before 148 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: you committed that crime, which means you can vote, you 149 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: can serve on jury duty, you can own a firearm, 150 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: you're a full fledged citizen. Your your civil abilities are restored. 151 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: Someone just took a magic racer and there goes yeah. 152 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: And there was actually a guy that Bush pardoned in 153 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: two thousand seven who had been running a some sort 154 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: of big gambling outfit and the Feds broke it up 155 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: on Super Bowl Sunday or something like that, and he 156 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: was issued a pardon. And he said in the in 157 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: an interview the reason he sought a pardons because he 158 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: didn't want his grandkids to know that he had been 159 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: a felon. So now if they ever look up their 160 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: granddad it won't come up unless they happened to pull 161 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: up this Washington Post story and they'll say, oh, wow, 162 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: granddad was a felon. How about that. So let's break 163 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: down the other types and the conditional pardon we've touched 164 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: on that. That's when the president issues a pardon but 165 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: ask for something and return. Good example would be Teddy 166 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: Roosevelt when he pardoned people in the Philippines for an uprising. 167 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: He said, we'll forgive you for your offenses to United States, 168 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: but you have to swear allegiance and loyalty and yeah. 169 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: And this is back when the Philippines were U S territory, right, 170 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: that'd be good to know as well, what are we 171 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: doing down there? There's some Swedes out there going what 172 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: are you talking? Okay, So now we have remission and 173 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: this is when a person is released from some sort 174 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 1: of legal obligation like a fine. Yes is specifically a 175 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: fine yes, and then the last one respect Yeah. This 176 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: is temporary. It can last for like a month or 177 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: two uh, and could be used to UM to conduct 178 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: more in intensive investigation. Maybe there's a there's a good 179 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: person who UM or a good example I should say, 180 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: if somebody who deserves respite is Troy Davis very recent 181 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: new story. Yeah, here's to be executed in Atlanta. Yea, 182 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: he was accused of shooting a cop many many years ago, 183 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: and apparently over the years of the witnesses or some 184 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: made some huge percentage of the eyewitnesses were candid their testimony. 185 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: I gave different versions each time. Apparently a guy who 186 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: was there, head Um, allegedly confessed to being the one 187 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: who shot at the cops. So he was on death 188 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: row and they just recently he was granted restpite I believe, 189 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: I think just within hours of his execution time. Yeah, 190 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: and so rest but essentially buys time, like you said, 191 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: so that you can research and decide why you're not. 192 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: A pardon is merited. So those are those are the 193 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: different kinds of pardon. Yeah, and if y'all are still 194 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: with us after all of that, wake up, wake up um, 195 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: he's where gets kind of juicy. We talked a couple 196 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: of weeks ago on another podcast about, uh, whether or 197 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: not the Electoral College decides the vote or if we 198 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: decide the vote. And this is a hot button issue 199 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: because some people say that we should have amend the 200 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: Constitution to disband the electoral College and let the people's 201 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: vote decide well. Congress has also a couple of times 202 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: thought about introducing bills to overturn the presidential parton and 203 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: because it's written to the Constitution, this can be along 204 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: and sticky process. But so far none of these bills 205 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: have made it through to a certain stage and then 206 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: really held water. But because the government has three different branches, 207 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: we have legislative, judicial, and executive, And because only the president, 208 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: head of the executive branch, can issue pardons, if there's 209 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: some funny business going on with the executive branch and 210 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: someone's called to testify before Congress, the person, you know, 211 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: can choose to waffle back and forth or not really 212 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: testify or not show up supposedly until Taft came in 213 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: and fix that. Yeah, and this is weird, um, And 214 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: let's let's get to a factor of fiction. Part. Is 215 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: it factor of fiction that there's nothing anybody can do 216 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: about a presidential pardon? That's easy fiction? Okay, So so 217 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: what can be done? Okay, you say like you're surprised, 218 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: you know as well as I do what's going on. 219 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: At least I didn't say thanks for clearing that up. 220 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: For clearing that up. Um Taft came in and essentially 221 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: he was the one who said, you can't pardon someone 222 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: who's in contempt. So that's the check and balance there. 223 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: If something's happening with the executive branch and witnesses called 224 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:44,479 Speaker 1: in to testify, they are bound constitutionally to testify before Congress, 225 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: and if they don't, then they're held in contempt. And 226 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: the president also the executive branch cannot pardon that person. No. Um. 227 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: And also because this this came out of the clarification 228 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: that pardons could only be used for affronts to the 229 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: federal government, right, Um, So Congress, I guess it was argued, uh, 230 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: is kind of exempt from that son in affront to Congress. 231 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: Contempt being held in contempt by Congress exists outside of 232 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: that that pardon power actually, uh. And did you know 233 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: that Congress actually has a little jail house behind the 234 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: each of the each of the chambers, so where you 235 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: can if you're held in contempt, they can take you 236 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: right off the floor and hold you indefinitely against your will, 237 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: be imprisoned by the members of Congress until you're ready 238 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: to talk, even if you're wearing your nicest Brooks exactly, 239 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: especially if your nicest Brooks brothers see what you're doing. 240 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: So if Congress holds you in contempt, all of a sudden, 241 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: you may be compelled to testify against a crooked president 242 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: or something like that. Um. So the president can't just say, 243 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: how about this, I'm just gonna grant your pardon right now, 244 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: and there's nothing they can do about it. Actually they can't. 245 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: They can hold you in contempt for not testifying, and 246 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: then you're in big trouble. So this was a big 247 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: check and balance that actually, like you said, William Howard 248 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: Taft elucidated as the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. 249 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: What's ironic is that Taft had been president eleven years 250 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: before and he basically ruled against this power of the president. Yeah, 251 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: and I think that that was a pretty smart move. 252 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: And who better than Taft who had been president to 253 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: suggest this because he knew how powerful the president can be. 254 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: So so so, so you've got this, uh, this contempt 255 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: clause basically taken out or added to the uh, the 256 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: understanding of impeachment. And that's why we're seeing today, um, 257 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: with the whole Attorney general firings scandal going on. Uh, 258 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: you're not seeing pardons being issued hard and fast. You're 259 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: seeing um executive privilege cited. Actually, which that's that's pretty 260 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: much the reason why. Well, when it comes to pardons, 261 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: it's interesting to look at who's granted the most, who's 262 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: granted the least. You know, who granted the most the 263 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: article I did FDR. Yeah, and it was a whopping 264 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: three thousand, six hundred eight seven. Keep in mind he 265 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: did serve three terms. He did, but that it was 266 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: still a thousand pardons more than the next highest. Yeah, 267 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: and pretty recently Clinton granted four hundred fifty nine and 268 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: he served two terms. He had some scandalous pardons. He 269 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: pardoned Mark rich who was the ex husband of one 270 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: of his big donors, Denise rich Um, for tax evasion 271 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: to the tune of fifty million bucks. He was very 272 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: much criticized for that. He was also criticized for partnering 273 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: his own brother, Rogers. You know that Roger had been 274 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: convicted of cocaine distribution in the eighties. Um, the thing 275 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: isn't in in Clinton. In President Clinton's defense, Roger served 276 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: his full term, paid all his fines, and had been 277 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: out of prison in like living in normal life for 278 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: many many years by the time he was actually pardoned, 279 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: and that's generally customary when you're pardoned. Commutations are very 280 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: very rare. When Scooter Livy's sentence was commuted before he 281 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: even served a single second in jail, uh, there was 282 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: a lot of analysis of it, and and people did 283 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: some research and found that that is not a common 284 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: thing at all. Pardons usually come at some point years 285 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: after the after the sentence has been carried out and 286 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: the finds have been paid, the restitution has been made, 287 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: and the person's tried to serve in or lead an 288 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: exemplary life since then. That kind of thing. And one 289 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: of the reasons for that is that even though there's 290 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: not a thing that we can do about a presidential pardon, 291 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: we can certainly voice our ira definitely, and because we 292 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: have freedom of the press, you know, we can quickly 293 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: disseminate that anger toward the president. So, especially now where 294 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: there are offices created to research who deserves pardons, there's 295 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: plenty of information available on who should get it, who 296 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: shouldn't get it. We all know the president knows and 297 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: again can't be overturned, but he can be reamed publicly 298 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: for it. He can be but you know, if you 299 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: think about it, America, these days, we don't burn enough 300 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: things in effigy. You know, our ire isn't stoked easily enough. 301 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: This isn't like poll in or anything like that. You know, 302 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: where you you if the government does something to irk everybody, 303 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: they're gonna let you know in the streets pretty quick. 304 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: And I don't know. When I drive to work this 305 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: morning and yesterday I saw a little little lady walking 306 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: around with the sandwich board on that UM said something 307 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: to the tune of I don't know taxes, blah blah blah. Well, 308 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: clearly it made a real impact. I mean I was 309 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: driving so fast I couldn't really tell that she was. 310 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: She was putting her ire onto slight um. Another thing 311 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: about pardons we should mention, aside from public ire is that, 312 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: and I don't think this happens very frequently, but a 313 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: pardon isn't official if the person being pardoned doesn't accept it. 314 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: That that used to be the rule, Like you, the grantee, 315 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: the person being pardoned had to say, oh great, thanks, 316 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: I want this um. And then I think it was Coolidge, 317 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: Calvin Coolidge, Okay, I kind of confused about this. Basically, 318 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: there was a guy. Yes, this is the rule before Coolidge, 319 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: and then Coolidge um pardoned a guy who didn't want 320 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: to leave jail, and Coolidge had him thrown out. He 321 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: told the warden to lock the door behind him and 322 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: the guy had to leave jail, whether he liked it 323 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: or not. Clearly been institutionalized or the food was really 324 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: good in the jail he'd been in. But that kind 325 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: of altered the rule a little bit. And that's kind 326 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: of how pardons have existed. And just as sidebar on Coolidge, 327 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: just because I don't think people know how cool Coolidge 328 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: really was. I love this man. He was sort of 329 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: a very powerful man. A few words. I remember when 330 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: he was up for re election. I don't remember like 331 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: I was there in the first person, but um, apparently 332 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: he was pretty popular and people wanted him to run again. 333 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: And he took the stage for this big speech. People 334 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: thought maybe he would announce he was running again. People 335 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: thought maybe he'd offer some sort of grand goodbye. He 336 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: apprecised the mic and he says, I choose not to 337 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: run for re election. Exit stage left, it's over. That's 338 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: a cool customer right there, that's a Coolidge utomer. Anyway, um, 339 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: can I say one last thing? Yeah, of course, little 340 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: pardon scandal, tidbit, you know Lincoln, Oh, you're going to 341 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: bring this up. He actually he pardoned a guy who 342 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: was convicted of attempted bestiality, and his defense was what, 343 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: he's such a stand up guy and all other aspects 344 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: of his character, and that he'd been drunk during the 345 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: time and question. So he was pardoned by Abraham Lincoln 346 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: near frat voice today. Don't get away with that, gosh anyway. 347 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 1: If you want to learn even more about presidential pardons, 348 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: please read how presidential Pardons Work on how stuff works 349 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 350 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com? What does know? 351 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,239 Speaker 1: What you think? Send an email to podcast at how 352 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com.