1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, what would you say if I told you 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: I was visited by aliens? I'd say, what, that's not there? 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Why you and not me? But would you believe me? Well, 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: it depends. Are they still at your place? Can I 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: come over? Are you getting in your car right now? 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: If it wasn't for social distancing? Now, let's say they 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: just left right before you could talk to him, would 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: you still believe Well, it depends. Did you get any 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: cool alien tech? Now? They left no trace and I 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: did not take a pick. You just have to take 11 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: my word for it. Well, you know, I think you're 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: an awesome person, but I think it's probably more likely 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: that you ate a bad banana and had a weird nap. 14 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: I am Orham, a cartoonist and the creator of p 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: HD Comics. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I 16 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: sincerely hope that we are not alone in this universe. Well, 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,199 Speaker 1: you're definitely not alone, because we are here for you, 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: and we are here with our podcast Daniel and Jorge 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: Explain the Universe, a production of I Heart Radio, in 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: which we take you on a tour of everything that's 21 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: amazing and beautiful and weird and special in this universe, 22 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: including the things on this planet, the things on other planets, 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: and the whole universe. Sometimes we bring the universe to you, 24 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: that's right, all of the amazing things that are out 25 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: there for us to discover and to see and possibly 26 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: to meet one day, that's right. And sometimes we talk 27 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: about how we explore the universe. We go out and 28 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: discover neutron stars and crazy black holes, and sometimes we 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: talk about how science comes to us. Yeah, because I 30 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: guess you know, we could be the subject of somebody 31 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: else's exploration or discovery. You know, we could be the 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: aliens that other people are looking for. That's right. We 33 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: are somebody else's exoplanets. But yeah, there's a big discussion 34 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: online and it's been going around for years about this 35 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: idea that maybe aliens and space and the universe has 36 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: come to us to visit us and to check us out. 37 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: That's right. And there's a whole spectrum of ideas here 38 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: that range from like really interesting totally valid scientific questions 39 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: like is there intelligent life in the universe? Could you 40 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: travel to other planets? Is that possible? And other stuff 41 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: like you know, were the Mayan's influenced by alien visitation? Right? 42 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: Which they were right depends on whether you call the 43 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: conquistadorous aliens the technically they are aliens, the original illegal 44 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: immigrants there, they were undocumented for sure. Yeah. So, and 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: we like to talk about the space and all the 46 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: things out there and real science and what physicists are 47 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: actually thinking about and trying to discover and claim is true. 48 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: But sometimes we also like to talk about what might 49 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: be true and what people are thinking about and talking 50 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: about out there. That's right, because an important part of 51 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: science is keeping an open mind. It's knowing that the 52 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: universe has the prizes for us. We have been surprised 53 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: many times in the history of science, discovering that the 54 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: universe is much stranger and much weirder than we imagined. 55 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: So it's vital to keep an open mind. But keeping 56 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: an open mind doesn't mean believing everything you see and 57 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: everything you hear. It means applying the scientific process and 58 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: collecting evidence before coming to a conclusion. Because I think 59 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: that's one thing that we try to do in this podcast. 60 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: You know that we talked about a lot about ideas, 61 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: what's possible, but it might not be possible, And you know, 62 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: I think we hope that maybe people out there get 63 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: a little bit of a sense of how scientists think 64 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: about things and what's the right way to think about 65 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: all of these claims that are out there. That's right. 66 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: That's precisely why we like taking you to the edge 67 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: of knowledge. So you see what science knows, what science 68 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: doesn't know, how science is trying to sort it out, 69 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: how science changes its mind. Oh, maybe there aren't many 70 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: other planets out there in the galaxy. Oh my gosh, 71 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: it turns out there's lots of them. Science certainly can 72 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: change its mind, but it's always in response to data. 73 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: It's in a response to evidence. It's not about wild speculation. 74 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: And so while I love the idea of aliens, and 75 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: I would love to meet aliens, and I really prefer 76 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: that when the aliens come of they visit me before 77 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: they visit Jorge. It's important to treat this topic carefully 78 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: and to deal with it from a skeptical point of view. 79 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: I'll make you pack, Daniel, if any has ever come 80 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: to visit me, or you'll be the first person I text. 81 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: I'm gonna hold you to that. Maybe after I pust 82 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: it on Twitter, then I'll call you. Your wife is 83 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: gonna be like aliens came to the house and you 84 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: texted Daniel first. But you know, there are lots of 85 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: reports out there about alien visitation, and people have written 86 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: to us asking us to talk about the claims of 87 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: Bob Blazar an Area fifty one after he got a 88 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: lot of attention on other podcasts, and we've talked recently 89 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: about how the Navy has video of weird objects doing 90 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: things that we don't understand in the sky. So to 91 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: be on the podcast, we'll be tackling the question should 92 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: we believe alien abduction stories? And this question is fascinating 93 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: and it's important because if aliens are visiting the Earth, 94 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: then boy, that's a big deal. But it's only a 95 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: big deal if it's true. Right, Aliens existing and visiting 96 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: the Earth is fascinating, exciting, but only if it's not 97 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: just a science fiction style. Yeah, you know, I feel 98 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: like maybe that's something that gets lost a little bit 99 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: in these crazy stories, is that it's not that somebody 100 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: got abducted, is that there are aliens. I don't care 101 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: what happened to you in that ship. I just care 102 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: that there are you know, they're the actually exists and 103 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: they're here and they they we are not alone. In 104 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: the universe. That's a that's a huge headline. That is 105 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: a big headline, and that's exciting. And I think another 106 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: common misimpression is that people think that scientists don't want 107 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: to believe these stories. Like I desperately want to believe 108 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: these stories. If you met aliens and it really happened, 109 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: I want to know. I want to go see all 110 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: the details. I want to learn everything about it. But 111 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: only if it's true. You you would love for these 112 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: stories to be true, wow, absolutely, Like I do not wish, 113 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: you know, mar from Kansas to have an unpleasant experience 114 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: on the alien ship, but I do wish aliens would 115 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: come and visit the Earth. I want these stories to 116 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: be true. I want, But I read plenty of science fiction. 117 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: I don't need more fiction, right, these stories have special 118 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: power only if they are really interesting. Well, today we're 119 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,239 Speaker 1: going to talk about a couple of the more famous 120 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: stories of alien abduction and talk about whether they what 121 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: we know about these stories, and also we'll talk about 122 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: whether or not it's physically possible or impossible for alien 123 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: life to visit us, And then at the end, Daniel 124 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: has an interview with professional skeptic about these topics. That's right, 125 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: because we want to teach you how to listen to 126 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: these stories, how to read one of these stories, and 127 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: ask the right questions so you can walk that fine 128 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: line staying open minded while also staying skeptical. Yeah, so, 129 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: as usual, we were wondering if people out there believe 130 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: these stories about alien abduction, or if they believe that 131 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: they should believe them. And so as usual, Daniel went 132 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: out there on the internet this time and ask people 133 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: if they thought they should believe hidion abduction stories. So 134 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: thank you very much to everybody who volunteered to vote. 135 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: Folks who also went out and did their own interviews. 136 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: You'll hear in some of the following snippets Darcy from 137 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: Western Australia interviewing her housemates about these questions. Now kidding 138 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: you farmed out the quick question a portion of the podcast. 139 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: It's genius. It was her idea. Thank you very much 140 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: Darcy for taking the initiatives. So before you listen to 141 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: the easy think about it for a second. Do you 142 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: believe alien abduction stories? And if not, why not? Here's 143 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: what people had to say. No, I don't know. I 144 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: think that would be if we had enough evidence. Absolutely, 145 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: But I think now normally there's really it's really you know, 146 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: the images of two blurry or you know, the stories 147 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: have holes and stuff. Unfortunately, because I would I would 148 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: absolutely love to see aliens. I imagine the first alien 149 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: induction would not be believed. It would take several of 150 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: the abductions before we start believing that it's happening. I 151 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: find it difficult to believe that alien abductions have happened. 152 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: I think it extremely likely that they haven't. But alien 153 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: abduction stories are clearly important, I think so really, it 154 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: would be very unlikely for aliens to re visit. Also, 155 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: only a couple of people realize it's yes, absolutely, because 156 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: we're not sure the aliens are real, but we might 157 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: know you haven't discovered it. So yeah, so almost a 158 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: hundred sure that there is other life out there, But 159 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: then again, it's also almost one that we're never going 160 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: to find it. Some people say that they have seen 161 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: the military sneaking and the alien bodies, so it could 162 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: be possible some of them, but just be careful who 163 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: you're believing. I don't know that alien abduction stories have 164 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: anything to do with actual alien life. I think you 165 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: could both believe in the very strong possibility of aliens 166 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: existing and even in a possibility of first contact. But 167 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: I think alien abduction stories I just heard a lot 168 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: about it being like a psychological neurological phenomena, So I 169 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: think it's more about what the brain does and reacts 170 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: and when it doesn't really understand what's happening, and then 171 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: attaches meaning to it after the fact. I guess maybe 172 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: because you always want to try and give people the 173 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt. But then again, an extraordinary claim 174 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 1: requires extraordinary evidence. No, I don't really believe any of them. 175 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: I do reserve judgment on UFOs and that kind of thing, 176 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: but I can't really see aliens doing what people claim 177 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: have been done to them. I am not too sure. 178 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: I am very skeptical these stories, partly because it doesn't 179 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: really make sense for aliens just come probe a couple 180 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: of people and not too much. And also quite a 181 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: few of these aliens are points humanlike, so you'd expect them, 182 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: if they're proper alien life, to be quite quite different. 183 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: I don't think so. My understanding of the distances and 184 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: the speed limits that all beings have to abide by 185 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: means that it's too unlikely, not unlikely, that aliens exist, 186 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: but unlikely that they can get to us. All right, 187 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: a lot of awesome answers here. A lot of people 188 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: are skeptical, and a lot of people I think that 189 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: it might be a possibility. Yeah, And you can hear 190 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: people sort of grappling with two different questions. One is, 191 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: could aliens exist? Could there be intelligent life out there 192 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: in the universe that totally possible? Is it possible from 193 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: that point of view? And then are any of the 194 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: stories we've heard credible? Which are really two very different 195 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: questions I see, And I think that's a really important 196 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: distinction for our listeners to keep track of. You know, 197 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: there's a question of is it possible? And there's a 198 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: question is to you believe the person industry who says 199 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: they've seen aliens? That's right, And a lot of the 200 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: discussion in this space is dominated by few alien abduction 201 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: stories that really sort of penetrated the culturals, as I guess. Yeah, 202 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: So take us back, Daniel, because I imagine that alien 203 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: abduction stories haven't been around that long, Like, were they 204 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: around in Victorian times or in the Middle Ages? Probably not, right, No, 205 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: They've only cropped up in the last you know, fifty 206 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: or a hundred years, and there's a sort of fascinating 207 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: history of the psychology of them. You know, often they 208 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: tend to be right on the edge of whatever technology 209 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: we have available. So fifty years ago people were taking 210 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: fuzzy pictures. Now we have much better cameras, they're still 211 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: taking fuzzy pictures of flying saucers. How convenient. Exactly, it's 212 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: like a I have a retina, you know, three thousand 213 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: megapixel camera and my phone, but I saw the alien 214 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: and I just happened to have a polaroid camera with me. 215 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: Or the aliens know how good our cameras are getting, 216 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: and now they're getting more slippery rather harder to photograph 217 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: now that we have better cameras or something they can 218 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: hack or filters. I think it really says something about 219 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: human psychology that these stories have cropped up recently and 220 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: that they're so pervasive and so widely believed. All right, 221 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: so take us back to the first of these stories 222 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: that these were. They started kind of in the fifties, right, Yeah, 223 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: So one of the first stories that really made waves 224 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: in modern culture comes from Betty and Barney Hill, and 225 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: these were a couple driving home late one night, and 226 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: you know, they probably should have pulled off and stopped 227 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: in a hotel, but they decided to drive through the night. 228 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: And while driving late at night, like three in the morning, 229 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: while very tired, they saw some weird lights in the sky, 230 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,359 Speaker 1: and you know, they saw lights that they couldn't understand, 231 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: and then they stopped the car and they saw other 232 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: lights they couldn't understand. But at the time they just 233 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: sort of drove home, had some weird dreams and shrugged 234 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: it off. And then it was two years later, under 235 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: hypnosis that they recovered memories of having been taken into 236 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: a ship and having all these really specific experiences, some 237 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: of them quite traumatic and intimate. Wow, And they correlate 238 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: with each other, like they both had these hypnos interviews 239 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: and they match. So I like what you're doing immediately, 240 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: You're asking good questions, right, like how do we understand 241 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: whether these stories are real or just made up? And 242 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: so yes, a lot of the details from their two 243 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: stories match. But you know, they had two years between 244 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: these supposed experiences and this hypnosis when they talked about 245 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: what happened that night to get their stories to sort 246 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: of align mentally. And you know, the important thing to 247 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: understand is like we don't know whether Betty and Barney 248 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: Hill are being insincere. They can completely believe these stories 249 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: that can be a completely honest accounting of what they 250 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: thought they experienced and also not necessarily be true, right, 251 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: because the human brain is a weird thing. The human 252 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: brain is a weird thing, and people have driven down 253 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: that road since. And it's not that hard to put 254 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: together another explanation, like there are some weird lights on 255 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: the tops of mountains, which, if if you're driving late 256 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: at night, appear and disappear as they go behind trees 257 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: and look a little strange. And there's a motel with 258 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: a big glowing orb on top of it is actually 259 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 1: a jackal lantern. It looks like an alien ships. Yeah, yeah, 260 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: And there were TV shows that came out during that 261 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: time that have depictions of aliens, and their depiction on 262 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: those TV shows aligns pretty well with what this couple 263 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: is describing. And so it's not that hard to put together, 264 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: like a pretty prosaic explanation for what I wonder if 265 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: it had something to do with these TV shows propping 266 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: up you know, I'm sure it does. And there's you know, 267 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: a whole interesting research in psychology about how this happens. 268 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: And the expert we're going to talk to later, Ben Radford. 269 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: His background is in psychology because one of the questions 270 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: you ask when you talk to people is like, well, 271 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: why do you believe this? And you sort of unravel 272 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: how they came to believe this thing. And the key 273 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: thing to understand about this story is that there's zero 274 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: physical evidence that this happened. Like, they don't have anything 275 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: they can point to that's concrete that proves that this happened. 276 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: It's the story that they are telling. It's a compelling story, 277 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating story, but it's a story they don't 278 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: have like an alien hospital, tax a risk or And 279 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: you know the problem is that they started telling this 280 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: story years after the events supposedly happening, which makes physical 281 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: investigation much more difficult. And you know, she talks about 282 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: the dress that she was wearing on that night and 283 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: claims that there was a weird powder on that dress, 284 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: and later people went and looked at the dress, and yes, 285 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: there is a weird powder on it, but it's not 286 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: necessarily like clearly an alien powder could certainly just been 287 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: mold or mites or any sort of thing. I see. 288 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: So this was the first that kind of the first 289 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: alien abduction story, not the first person to claim to 290 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: be abducted by aliens, but the first one is gained 291 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: sort of wide cultural knowledge, became the canonical alien abduction story. 292 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: And when you have a situation where a story rests 293 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: solely on an anecdote told by somebody, then you have 294 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: to wonder also about their particular credibility, right Like if 295 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: there is no physical evidence and there are other prosaic explanations, 296 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: then you have to wonder like, should we believe a 297 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: story told by this person? And that becomes uncomfortably a 298 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: little bit personal. Dig into that person's background and try 299 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: to understand whether they've told similar stories with they're credible, 300 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: and other parts of their lives, etcetera. I see, And 301 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: let me guess that this take place somewhere in rural America, 302 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: out in a corn field. Not in a corn field, 303 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: but yes, out in the dark woods. I guess if 304 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: you're an alien and you're looking for humans to fish out, 305 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: you probably wouldn't go to New York City, would you. 306 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: I think they have a lot of humans in New 307 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: York City. Yeah, it would be more of a buffet. Yes, 308 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: and you might fit in better. I mean, I don't 309 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: think anybody would bad eye and alien walking down the 310 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: street of Manhattan, right, another reason to be skeptical. So 311 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: that's kind of the seminal maybe the seminal cultural alien 312 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: abduction story. But then, um, there's also this character, Bob Lazar, 313 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: who's who's been sort of in the news recently, but 314 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: he's also kind of one of the original alien conspiracies. Yes, 315 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: Bob blazare and he's also wonderful that weaving a tail. Like. 316 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: The things that these stories have in common is that 317 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: they are fun to listen to because you're excited, right, 318 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: You want them to be true. You want to believe 319 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: they're telling you the story. You want to believe. It's 320 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: not necessarily like a malicious con but it's the reason 321 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: that people are receptive is that they want to believe 322 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: these stories. And so it's kind of like why we 323 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: go to movies. We kind of want to believe these stories. Yeah, 324 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: he wanted to suspend disbelief for a moment and be 325 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: wrapped up in a universe where aliens can come and 326 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: visit and teach us crazy things about science. Okay, so 327 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: what's Bob Lazar's story. In his background, Bob Lazar is 328 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: basically the person who began the whole Area fifty one craziness. Yeah. 329 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: In nine he claims to have been working at Area 330 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: fifty one where he was reverse engineering alien crafts captured 331 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: by the military. What yeah, yeah, And he talks in 332 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: a very scientific sounding manner about all the technical details 333 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: of it. And I think this is why he gains 334 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: a lot of credibility among the media and among the 335 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: general public, is that he sounds like he knows what 336 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: he's talking about. He talks about antimatter reactors, element one fifteen, 337 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: wave guides for gravity waves. Know, if you know any 338 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 1: physics at all, everything he says sounds just like word salad, 339 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't actually make any sense, but it's very 340 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: effectively science, kind of like this podcast sometimes. No, it's 341 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: like a lot of science fiction. You're like, I'm watching 342 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: that show Dev's. It's a lot of fun, but all 343 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: the science and it sounds like it was just sort 344 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: of put in a random word generator and they pressed 345 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: the button ten times, you know, And it makes for 346 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: very effective sound being science, but it's not actually a 347 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: compelling story. If you understand it. Well, what's his background? 348 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: Is he sort of an engineer actually the trained and 349 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: are the records of him working in the military. Well 350 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: that's sort of the fascinating question because he claimed to 351 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: have gone to m I T and be working at 352 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: Los Alamos and all this stuff, but the records don't 353 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: really back that up. You know, m I T says 354 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: they have no records of him studying there. And you know, 355 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: he wasn't actually working at Los Alimos, or he was 356 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: working for somebody who was working for somebody who was 357 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,479 Speaker 1: near Los Alamos. You know, Oh, I see he has 358 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: a contractor for the contractor, and you might think, well, 359 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: who cares? Like if the guy has bits of alien crafts, 360 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: that doesn't really matter if he went to m I 361 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: T or Bob's College of Knowledge, right, And of course 362 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, except that he doesn't. He has no evidence, 363 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: he has nothing he can point to. All he has 364 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: is his story. And so again, his personal credibility is 365 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: quite important because if you're going to believe him, you 366 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: have to just trust this guy, Bob. I see. It's 367 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: kind of like the boy who crip off. If you 368 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: lie once, then nobody's going to believe you. Afterwards. Yeah, 369 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: and so there's been a lot of public scrutiny of 370 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: his background, and you know, he has a revolving series 371 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: of stories. And I've seen documentaries and listening to interviews 372 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: from the guy, and he's a very good speaker, and 373 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: he's very good at telling stories. I wish I was 374 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: as good at weaving a tale as he was. But 375 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: in the end, you need more than a tale, right, 376 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: you need some documentation. You could just be a talented 377 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: storyteller doesn't mean that it's true. And he's got another 378 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: level to the story, which is like he has a 379 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: reason why he has no evidence. The reason he has 380 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: no evidence is this conspiracy theory to cover up this 381 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: entire thing. And that's where this like Goverend went went 382 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: in and it races m I T you know records. Yeah, 383 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,479 Speaker 1: and the reason he has no bits of the alien 384 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: craft is because it was all you know, behind the 385 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: fence in secure areas of military controlled Area fifty one. 386 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: And so he has a story and then is a 387 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: story why he doesn't have to back up his story. 388 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: And I guess my question for him would be, you know, 389 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: what are the first fifty areas? That's like, what are 390 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: the first one blinks, you know, like there you go. 391 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: What was COVID one through COVID eighteen? You know, Yeah, 392 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: they're very important questions that my mind goes to immediately. 393 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, if area fifty one is 394 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: aliens in it, you know area one through five? Wow? Yeah, right, 395 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: if aliens are prioritized in order fifty one, what number one? 396 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: What is number one? They probably a black hole in 397 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: there's something goodness? All right, Well, these are all really 398 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: you know, compelling and interesting stories and they've been in 399 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: the guys for a long time and then culture. But 400 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: I guess the question is is that possible? Is it 401 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: possible for aliens to have come visitors? And so let's 402 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: get into that. But first let's take a quick break. 403 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: All right, Daniel, are alien abductions even physically possible? According 404 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 1: to Side, Well, let's break it down piece by piece. Right, 405 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,239 Speaker 1: let's talk about whether aliens could exist. You know, one 406 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: of my favorite topics, something we've talked about on the 407 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: podcast before, and it's essentially an open question. Right, we 408 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: don't know what the ingredients of life to start are. 409 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: We don't know what's necessary for intelligent life to get sparked. 410 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: We don't know how likely intelligent life is to lead 411 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: to technological life that we could communicate with or understand 412 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: or could travel the galaxy. So it's a huge series 413 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: of just questions, and they ranged from like a zero 414 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: possibility to pretty likely. Yeah, you could imagine a universe 415 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: in which it's very unlikely, like one in a trillion 416 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: planets has intelligent life on it, But in that universe, 417 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: the life on that one in a trillion planet is 418 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: probably gonna ask, you know, are we alone? Is there 419 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: anybody else out there? And so that could be us. 420 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: On the other hand, you could also imagine the universe 421 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: in which one out of every ten planets has life 422 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: on it, and one out of every ten of those 423 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: has intelligent life, in which case the galaxy is teeming 424 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: absolutely teeming with intelligent life. Because the thing we do 425 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: know is that there are lots of planets out there. 426 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: The average star has many planets around it, and the 427 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: average star has like at least one Earth like planet, 428 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: and so there are lots of habitable worlds out there. 429 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: And because there are lots of planets out there, the 430 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: sort of the denominator is very large, and so you 431 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: don't need life to be very probable per planet for 432 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: it to happen a lot in the galaxy. And I 433 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: think for me, the biggest stumbling block is the distances 434 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: to other stars, Like you know, for me, it's like, 435 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: why would an alien spe she's come here because it's 436 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: so far away from everything else. I mean, what could 437 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: we possibly have. It's so enticing that they couldn't get 438 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: anywhere else or make on their own. That's a good point. 439 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have unique resources here, right. Everything 440 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: we have on Earth is very prevalent everywhere in the 441 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: high Earth. Yeah, water, you know, iron, uranium, all these 442 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: things are everywhere in the universe. You could come and 443 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: get most of the stuff just in the asteroid belt. 444 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,479 Speaker 1: So if they're just looking for raw resources, they wouldn't 445 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: even stop by. Yeah yeah, And I mean also we're 446 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: talking about huge distances, right, like millions of light years away. 447 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: You know, that's a long way to cross just to 448 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: sort of like come and say hi or abduct us 449 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: if you're talking about intergalactic aliens. And yes, there are 450 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: millions of light years away. Our galaxies hundred thousand light 451 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: years across, which is still really big, and the nearest 452 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: star is just over three light years away. So even 453 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: if we were lucky enough that our neighboring star had 454 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: life on it, it would take years for light to 455 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: travel from that start to hear, right, And that's going 456 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: at the speed of light. That's going on three years. 457 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: You would have to invest three years going at the 458 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: speed of light just to get here. I'm just saying 459 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I wouldn't make that. You don't think we're 460 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: worth it. I would be like, can I call you instead? 461 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: You know, can we face time? Well, let me make 462 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: the opposite point. I think if we knew that there 463 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: were aliens around Proximus Centauri, the nearest star, I would 464 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: be ad in favor of sending people there, I see, 465 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: But not you, not me? I got That's what I'm saying. 466 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: Who would want to go there? I'm sure we could 467 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 1: find volunteer. He wants to, he wants to catch them in, 468 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: put him around. I'm sure we could find volunteers to 469 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,719 Speaker 1: go to Proximus Centauri. And but you know, the likelihood 470 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: is that if there is life in the galaxy, it's 471 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: not that common, and so probably they would have to 472 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: travel from much further away, you know, fifty hundred light 473 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: years and so we're talking travel times in the century. Yeah, 474 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: and that's in going at the speed of light. What 475 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: do you mean like, most likely you can't. You can 476 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: go half as fast as that, and then it would 477 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: take hundreds of years. And that's sort of terrifying because 478 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: then you can imagine a universe with lots of intelligent 479 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: life in it, but it's all isolated, like these little 480 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,719 Speaker 1: islands of life wondering about who else is out there 481 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: in the universe and never meeting each other. That's sort 482 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: of sad. Well, that's why they invented face times. Then 483 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: I don't think my data plan covers out there's no 484 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: signal past Jupiter. No, but there's a loophole, right, There 485 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: are ways to get across the galaxy. We think, maybe 486 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: possibly without breaking the rules about the speed of life 487 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: and without spending years and years to get there. If 488 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: maybe aliens somehow invented warp drives or or wormholes. Yeah, 489 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: we don't know, but we think theoretically that wormholes are possible, 490 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: and we think the concepts behind warp drives are sound. 491 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: We don't know if anybody could ever actually build one 492 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: or make it practical, or if wormholes are stable, or 493 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: if you can manipulate them or anything. But you know, 494 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: imagine aliens figured this stuff out. We don't have a 495 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: physics reason to say it's impossible. It could be easy 496 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: for them to drop in and say hi or grab people. 497 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: It could be Yeah, So to imagine that aliens visit Earth, 498 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: all you need to do is speculate that there are 499 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 1: aliens in the galaxy, which again we can't say there aren't, right, 500 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: And it certainly could be the case that there are 501 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: intelligent technological extraterrestrials in our galaxy and that they have 502 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: a way to get here. And again we can't say 503 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: that they that they do, but we also can't say 504 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: that they don't. Right, Like, it's possible that they could 505 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: build wormholes and warp drives. Physics doesn't say it's impossible. 506 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: Physics can't say it's impossible. But you also can't say 507 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: that it's likely or that it's a sure thing. We 508 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: can't really say anything about how likely it is, but 509 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: we can't rule it out, which means, hey, keep an 510 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: open mind. That's why I'm hopeful, you know, I'm hopeful 511 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: that the aliens do figure out warp drives and they 512 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: come here and they tell us all about it because 513 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: you don't want to do it yourself. That's what I 514 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: got grad students for some problems. The grad students do 515 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: some problems. I'm kinding of the aliens. One like grubhub 516 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: for aliens, like just dial them up on your app 517 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: and they will show up at your door. I want 518 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: Amazon to include alien technology. Amazon Prime Alpha centri deliveries 519 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: may be delayed due to the limitations of physics. Al Right, Well, 520 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 1: I think keep an open mind is always a good idea, 521 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: and it always a good philosophy to have about everything 522 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: in life. But also I think another good philosophy is 523 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: to be skeptical and to you know, don't take things 524 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: at face value and to ask questions, you know, probe 525 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: into it. That's right. And so to get a better 526 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: handle on how to do that, I talk to somebody 527 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: who has a lot of experience listening to these kinds 528 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: of stories, um examining them with an open mind but 529 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: also with a scientific mindset. And so Daniel talked to 530 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: Ben Radford, the deputy editor of Skeptical Inquirer. Now is 531 00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: that another offshoot of Enquirer, not National Inquirer. I feel 532 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: like they could have chosen a different name, so they're 533 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: not associated with the prime publication for aidien abduction stories. Well, 534 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: Skeptical Inquire is a wonderful magazine. I read it a 535 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: lot growing up, and it's really I did. Yeah, it's 536 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: put out by the Center for Inquiry, which believes in 537 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: asking questions and making rational decisions, which is you know, 538 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: especially important in this time. And they put out this 539 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: magazine where people tackle questions like, you know, somebody claimed 540 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: paranormal ability, what do we actually know? How could you 541 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: investigate it? Or people do experiment studying the paranormal or 542 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: bigfoot or alien abduction stories, and they try to ask 543 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: these questions from a skeptical mindset and also with an 544 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: open mind. Cool. So did Ben define what it means 545 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: to be a skeptic in the interview? Yeah, so listen 546 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: to this interview. I had a lot of fun talking 547 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: to Ben. So here's Daniel talking to Ben Radford of 548 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: Skeptical Inquire magazine. My name is Benjamin Radford. I am 549 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: a author and deputy editor of Skeptical Enquire science magazine, 550 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: and folklorist and investigators class researcher. So I sort of 551 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: have many different hats. As I was growing up now 552 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: will read these fascinating stories about you know, the Roosvelt 553 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: crash and just you know, crazy wild things and crop 554 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: circles and ghosts and psychics and all sorts of It 555 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: was very heavy stuff, and I loved it and I 556 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: was fascinated by it. But as I read more and 557 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: more of the books, I realized that there was very 558 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: little actual investigation. There was lots of you know, they 559 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: say that and it is said that stories, and you know, 560 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: an anonymous source once said that blah blah blah happened. 561 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, well, how do you know that? You know, 562 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just asking how you 563 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: know that, and how I, as a reader, am supposed 564 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: to believe that? Right? And so for you, the reason 565 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: the mystery is compelling is because you want to know 566 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: if it's true, and so you want to hear about 567 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: the investigation, if you want to dive into it, not 568 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: just hear the story. Is that right exactly? And so 569 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, for me, it's a matter of wanting to 570 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: uncover the truth wherever the truth may lie. And if 571 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: you know, this is why I investigate a wide variety 572 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: of so called mysterious or unexplainable claims arranging from alien 573 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: abductions to ghosts and what have you. Is because they're 574 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: inherently fascinating topics and we can apply science to them. 575 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: And that's what really intrigued me was trying to connect 576 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: the two. On one hand, we have the scientific process 577 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: and the ways of learning about the world, and you know, 578 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: technology and you know, looking at making telescopes and microscopes 579 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: and and using methodologies to understand how the world works 580 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: around us. But then on the other hand, we have 581 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: these sort of wild, fantastic, crazy, wild claims about you know, 582 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: a Aliams and visiting things, making crop circles and things 583 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: like that. And I wanted to try and connect the 584 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: two and say, okay, well, we we have this this 585 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: amazing method of learning about the world through science, how 586 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: do we apply that to these mysteries. Well, I'm always 587 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: telling our listeners that we should keep an open mind 588 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: about new, crazy sounding science ideas because the universe is 589 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: kind of bunkers, and the kind of stuff that has 590 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: turned how to be true are things that would seem 591 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: fantastical a hundred years ago. So when you look into 592 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: a claim of alien visitation or paranormal or something. What 593 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: is your goal? Are you looking to debunk it? Are 594 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: you hoping that it's true? What is your end goal 595 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: there when you begin an investigation, Well, Michael is always too. 596 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: Ultimately is to find out what the truth is? I 597 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: want to know again, I love a good story. Well, 598 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: I'll love a good story. But when I hear a 599 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: good story or an interesting story, I want to go 600 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: a step further. I don't just want to be entertained 601 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: by the story and think, Wow, that was crazy, that's wild. 602 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: I also want to say, okay, but is it also true? 603 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: I want to take that extra step. But that extra 604 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: step involves investigation, involves research, involves applying lots of different 605 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: disciplines to it. And if extraterrestrials truly are visiting Earth 606 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: and you know, making symbols in corn fields and abducting 607 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: people and implanting things on them and doing all these 608 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: experiments things like that, this is important to know. This 609 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: is this is not a trivial issue, right. These are 610 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: opportunities to learn something about the universe, not just to 611 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: tell a compelling story. Absolutely absolutely, and so part of 612 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: my role as an investigator is to take things seriously 613 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: and to not not just be dismissive. So then what 614 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: is the process? How does one apply open minded skepticism 615 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: to a crazy sounding story you have phoe abduction story 616 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: or big photo or whatever. How do you do that? Well, 617 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: there's a couple of ways. I actually wrote a book 618 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: on this, actually tolled titled Scientific Paranor Investigation, How to 619 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: Solve Unexplained Mysteries. Came out in like or something, and 620 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: I talked about that in the book. And you know, 621 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: one of the goals, one of the first steps is 622 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: to basically establish the journalistic basics, so you know who, what, where, why, 623 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: when and how, And some of those are more difficult 624 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: than others. Right, so you know, it's easy to find 625 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: out where something happened and to whom it happened. It's 626 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: it's much more difficult to know what happened or how 627 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: it happened. But the first step is to establish the basics. 628 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: Under what circum stances did this happen? Where were you 629 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: were other people around? What time of day is it? 630 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: Was it daytime, nighttime? What else was going on? The 631 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: circumstances really important to understanding the context what might have happened. 632 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: It sounds almost like the approach that a detective would 633 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: take and trying to solve a murder, you know, look 634 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: for other stories to make sure they fit together, find 635 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: physical evidence if it's available, but try to understand the simplest, 636 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: compelling story that explains everything and can be corroborated. Yeah, 637 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. I mean, the investigative process is exactly 638 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: the same whether you're investigating a homicide, whether you're investigating 639 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: an alien induction case or anything else. The basic principles 640 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: are the same. Established the facts, see how those facts 641 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: corroborate with other facts, and look for additional evidence. So 642 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: then what is the standard of evidence, like what accumulation 643 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: of evidence would convince you that aliens were visiting Earth? Well, again, 644 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: it depends on the specific claim. You need something more 645 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: than what's usually offered, which is experience, which is anecdotes. 646 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: And this is part of the problem is that the 647 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: bulk of the evidence this offered for these phenomena are 648 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: people's reports their experiences. There are memories, you know, I 649 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: was walking through the woods and I saw this weird 650 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: light in the sky and zoomed off. And I mean 651 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: I've had people come up to me and tell me that, 652 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: and and they look at me, like, well, what what 653 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: was it? Mr? Investigator? I'm like, I don't know. Don't 654 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: you have a catalog of all possible aliens in your brain? 655 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: And you refer to I mean, I wasn't there, And 656 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: so I have to explain to people. It's like, you know, 657 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: I'm not saying you're wrong. It's entirely possible that you 658 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: saw that. And I have a degree in psychology and 659 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with all that. So the question then 660 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: becomes what did they experience and what's the best explanation 661 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: for that experience. So a lot of our listeners have 662 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: written in because they've heard stories told by Bob Lazar 663 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: on well known podcasts about his experiences and his claims 664 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: about traveling on alien ships and interacting with aliens. For 665 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: a well known story such as this, is there anything 666 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: that you can do to grab onto it to evaluate 667 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: the story that he tells, to give us a sense 668 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: for how likely it is to be something real or 669 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: just some crazy experience he had. Sure, well, you know, 670 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: Bobblazar and his claims about Area fifty one are interesting. 671 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: I guess I'm trying to think about it. Of all 672 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: the words that are running through my mind. You know, 673 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,479 Speaker 1: one thing about alien stories and ufology is that there's 674 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: a strong element of conspiracy theory in them, and you 675 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: don't find this in many other topics. I mean, there 676 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: isn't a huge notion about conspiracies regarding Bigfoot, for example, 677 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: or regarding psychics or what have you, Lockness Monster, But 678 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 1: in UFO reports and alien inductions there's a very clear 679 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: and very strong undercurrent of conspiracy theory. And one of 680 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: the elements of conspiracy theories is that the people to 681 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: believe in them say, well, I can't give you the 682 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: evidence to prove it because it's being hidden from me, right. 683 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: That's basically they're they're setting up an excuse, a reason 684 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: why they can't give evidence. You know, if someone comes 685 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: to me and says there's an underground alien bas uh 686 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: in this in this place and there's alien bodies there, 687 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: and I say, well, that's an interesting idea of what's 688 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: your evidence, they say, well, I can't give you the 689 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: evidence obviously, because it's a conspiracy there being it's being 690 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: hidden for me, and the fact that there is no 691 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: evidence is proof of the conspiracy, right right right? What 692 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: am I supposed to do with that? Is so it's 693 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: the sort of self reinforcing thing. And that's exactly what 694 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: happened in the case of Bob blaz Are. So in 695 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: the case of Area fifty one, you know, it's an 696 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: interesting blend, right, because are one exists. It is, it's 697 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: it's known. You can drive by there. I've been there, 698 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: you can see on satellite maps, there's photographs. So it 699 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: is an actural place. It's not imaginary, it's not a conspiracy. 700 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: It's real place. The question is not whether the location 701 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: is real. The question is what goes on there. Well, 702 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: it's a military base, and they test technology and a 703 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: secret plane and designs and and and spy technology, and 704 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: that's what they do there. And the government and the 705 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 1: Pentagon has a vested interest in not letting our our 706 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: enemies know exactly what technology we have. And so in 707 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: a sense, there's no real mystery there. So again, the 708 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: fact that the government has a place that the public 709 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: is allowed access into should not be surprising. There there 710 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: are national labs across the country. I live within about 711 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: ten miles of one. I can't just wander in there 712 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: and ask to look at their stuff, right, right, And 713 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: it makes it the perfect place to tell a story 714 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: about which you can't provide any evidence exactly. Yeah. So 715 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: so any time that you have a vacuum of information, 716 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories will fill it. Right, So any time that 717 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: someone said no, you can't you know, I can't give 718 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: you all the information, like wow, well why not? Well 719 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,359 Speaker 1: even when you explain to them why why not? Like well, yeah, 720 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: but what a really hiding rights in the case of 721 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: those are He appeared in shadow and Silhouette on a 722 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: on a television show saying that he had helped other 723 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: scientists study crash flying saucers on top secret projects and 724 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: he he he told this whole story, and of course 725 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: it was it was a sensational story. You have this 726 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: guy like, well, I'm a scientist. I can't tell you 727 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: my name, but I'm a scientist this and I saw 728 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: alien bodies in this set and the other And of 729 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: course the public was a maze, like wow, And it's 730 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 1: a wonderful story, because who wouldn't want to investigate alien craft, 731 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: Like as a scientist, I would love to find out 732 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: the physics behind you know, interstellar transport, etcetera, etcetera. It's 733 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: so compelling. Yeah, yeah, who wouldn't want to be part 734 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: of this right, and then you know, it gets into 735 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, talking about flying saucers and three to four 736 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: foot tall alien grays and this this whole thing, and 737 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, after a while, you know, so of course 738 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: it caused this big store in the UFO community. But 739 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: after a while people are like, hold on, who exactly 740 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: is this bubbloz are Well, it turned out that he 741 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: had actually faked most of his credentials. He claimed to 742 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: have have worked at M I T. M I T 743 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: said they never heard of him. LUSS almost national labs 744 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: that he worked there, but he didn't anything classified. His 745 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: descriptions of what he saw there were pseudo scientific. I mean, 746 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,959 Speaker 1: you know, so scientists who work with aircraft would read 747 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: his descriptions say that's not how that works. This is 748 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: not you're you're just like you're describing some fans see 749 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: land and again. So soon after Lazar's story was made public, 750 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: both skeptics and believers looked into his background, said this 751 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: guy is not credible. I mean, it's it's an interesting 752 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: story and you can see why you woul grab the 753 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: public's attention, But when you dig into it, he offered 754 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: no evidence, and what evidence he did offer turned out 755 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: to be largely fabricated in terms of background, And unfortunately, 756 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: his background does come into play because its entire story 757 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: is an anecdote that he is telling. If he had 758 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: hard evidence of wave guides and alien bodies, nobody would 759 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: really care about whether he went to M I. T. 760 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: Or whether he worked for Los Almos, or you know 761 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: what his favorite color was. But since everything he's producing 762 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: is just his story, then of course his character and 763 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: his credibility is all that can be investigating exactly. You 764 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: make exactly the right point. If you have the evidence, 765 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: then you don't need to make up a story. If 766 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,439 Speaker 1: he had good evidence that there were crashed bodies in 767 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: four tall alien grads and this and that, then we 768 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't matter whether he was some stay at home dad 769 00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: or not. In your view, it's the sort of most 770 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: common prosaic explanation for an alien visitation or an alien 771 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: abduction story. Well, that's a good question. It really depends 772 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: on what exactly you're talking about other two. So, for example, 773 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: if you're just looking at UFOs, and just to be clear, 774 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: UFOs absolutely exist, I just want to make the fun 775 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: about that UFOs do exist. UFOs of course meaning unidentified 776 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: flying objects that is something in the sky that someone 777 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: doesn't can't identify. They're all over the planes, right, Just 778 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: because you see something flying in the sky, doesn't you 779 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: know what it is? And so if you just take 780 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,479 Speaker 1: it literally, all it means is that something was flying 781 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: in the sky. Dare to night that for whatever reason, 782 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,799 Speaker 1: the viewer doesn't know what it is? Well, yeah, you know, 783 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: why would they know what it is? Is a satellite? 784 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: Is it a common is a plane? Is it a drone? 785 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: Is a helicopter? It could be in a number of things. 786 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: The logical laps here. The logical error is what's called 787 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: argument from ignorance. Basically, it's the idea that I don't 788 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: know x, so why must be true? Right? So you know, 789 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on at Area fifty one, 790 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: So Bob Lazar must be right that there's alien bodies. 791 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: I don't know what that light in the sky is. 792 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: Therefore it must be alien spacecraft. That's not that's not 793 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 1: how that works. Again, that's a logical fallacy. It's a 794 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: very common one, but it's it's a logical fallacies nonetheless, 795 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: and so again it depends on what exactly you're talking about. 796 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: So there are lots of things in the sky both 797 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: day and night that the average person just walking down 798 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: the street or camping in the woods at night might 799 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 1: not recognize. People have cited venus. There's weather balloons, there's helicopters, 800 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: there's oddly shaped clouds, there's airplanes. I mean, there's there's 801 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: any number of things in the sky, and just because 802 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: from one particular vantage point a given person can't identify 803 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean anything. Then. The the other question is 804 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: in terms of the abductions, and the abductions are a 805 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: sort of more complex matter, right, because people that are 806 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: claiming to have been abducted by aliens, that's a whole 807 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: different that's a whole different subset. Right. They're not just 808 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: saying I saw something weird in the sky. I think 809 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 1: it's a I think it's an alien craft. They're saying 810 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: aliens came to me and you know, did things to 811 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: my body. They took me up to a different planet 812 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: to their spacecraft. Maybe they probe me that, maybe they 813 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: left an implant in me, and things like that. So 814 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: it's a much more elaborate story, not something you could 815 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: misunderstand if it really happened. But this is not just 816 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: lights in the sky, this is a very intimate experience, exactly. 817 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,959 Speaker 1: It's it's much more complicated and much more intimate, and 818 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: in some ways should be much more amenable to investigation, right. 819 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: I mean, anybody can say they saw something zooming across 820 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: the sky in a weird light, right, There's not what 821 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 1: you can do with that. If someone says that, you know, 822 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,879 Speaker 1: they were in their house last August ten and spacecraft 823 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: came over their backyard and alien beams shot down and 824 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: the two entities looked like great aliens or you know, 825 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: big eyes round oval eyes came in and took them 826 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: and being them up to the spacecraft. There should be 827 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: evidence for that, right. There should be neighbors who saw 828 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: this UFO land in the backyard. There should be evidence 829 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 1: that that something was there. And what you find is 830 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: that when you're looking at alien abductions specifically, typically they 831 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: are only recovered later on. So this is where we 832 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: get into psychology. We get recovered memories. So usually in 833 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,760 Speaker 1: these cases when people say they were abducted by aliens, 834 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: it's not like they this happened last night and they 835 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 1: reported the police or somebody else the next day. Instead, 836 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: it's that months or years or in some cases decades later, 837 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: they go to a UFO conference, or they go to 838 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: a hypnotist or a therapist as someone who sort of says, 839 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: i'll relax, you'll hypnotize you, and these memories come out 840 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: and they start giving these elaborate stories of what had 841 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: happened to them months or years earlier. And the problem 842 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: there is that then you get into memory, you get 843 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,800 Speaker 1: into psychology, and we know for a fact from decades 844 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,479 Speaker 1: of research that memory is fallible. People don't remember things 845 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: all the time. People people misremember things, people misperceived things. 846 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 1: In some cases, people do what's called confabulation, where they 847 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: misremember something they saw in a film or on a 848 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: TV show, or something that someone told them, and they 849 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: mistake that for their own experience. And I want to 850 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: be very clear of this doesn't mean they're crazy or stupid. 851 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: This happens to everyone. This is a common, well known 852 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: psychological phenomena. So this is not unique to alien abductees. 853 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: It's something that we all do. It's just that in 854 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: these particular cases, what they're remembering typically has no outside corroboration. 855 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: And number two, it happens under the conditions of of 856 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: remembering stories and making up stories and fantasies, and it's 857 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: very difficult to corroborate them. And again, if it's something 858 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: that's happened in the past, then immediate physical evidence can 859 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: no longer be gathered. And again we're just relying on 860 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 1: their story exactly. And this is one of the things 861 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: that this most frustrating is, you know, someone comes to 862 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: me and says, oh, well, you know, I was talking 863 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: to my therapists last month, and you know, they were 864 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 1: telling me that, you know, they believe in in aliens. 865 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: And I saw this this TV show recently, and I think, 866 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm remembering this, and I said, well, what happened, Like, well, 867 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, I remember when I was a kid, you know, 868 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: when I was you know, nine or ten years old. 869 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: I'm like, this is thirty years ago. I mean, the 870 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: opportunity to investigate this is long since past. So it's 871 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: no wonder that again, even if these are even if 872 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 1: these stories are true, and and there's no real good 873 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: events that they are, even if they're true, they're inherently 874 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 1: problematic to investigate because they're not discussed or investigated until 875 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: until much later. It's a complicated question of psychology. Absolutely, 876 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,320 Speaker 1: all right, Well, we'd love to hear more from Ben Bradford, 877 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break. Okay, we're back 878 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: and we're talking to Ben Radford, deputy editor of Skeptical 879 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: Enquirer magazine, about how to listen to stories about aliens. 880 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question about what you like 881 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: to watch. Do you enjoy watching shows like Ancient Aliens 882 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: or do you try to avoid shows like that? Well, 883 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: here's the thing. So I've been doing this sort of 884 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: investigations and research for about eighteen twenty years now, so 885 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: investigate a wide variety of things as an expert who 886 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: in many cases has investigated a lot of the incidents 887 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: that appear on these shows. It's really frustrating because I'll 888 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: be watching this there's lots of yelling at the TV 889 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: where I'm like, that's not how that works. Like I 890 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: know this, I researched this case, and you're providing one 891 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,399 Speaker 1: angle to the story and you're leaving out a whole 892 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: bunch of other stuff. And it's like, so, why are 893 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: they doing it? Why are they not doing a full, 894 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: good faith investigation. Don't viewers want to see a real 895 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,719 Speaker 1: credible investigation. Well, that's a good question. There's a couple 896 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 1: of answers. One of them is that unfortunately, the general 897 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:53,399 Speaker 1: public doesn't have a good grasp of scientific processes, methodologies, 898 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: and investigative techniques. So to a lot of people, when 899 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: they see ghost hunters on on TV shows ghost even 900 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: truslove routes, or they see, you know, people looking for bigfoot, 901 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: are looking for aliens. To them, the fact that it's 902 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,839 Speaker 1: on TV gives it some validity and some credibility. Right. 903 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: They say, well, these are investigators. It says investigator right 904 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:13,959 Speaker 1: there on the screen. I can, I can see it, right. 905 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,240 Speaker 1: And what they're missing is that typically on these shows, 906 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: they're not in investigation business. They're in the entertainment business. 907 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: And there this goes back to what I said earlier 908 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: is my complaint isn't that these people are investigating these 909 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,240 Speaker 1: weird things. My complaint is that they're not investigating it correctly. 910 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: They're not bringing science to it. It's all this sensational 911 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,239 Speaker 1: mystery mongering. I think there's a fear that if they 912 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,840 Speaker 1: did a real investigation, it would be boring and simple 913 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,239 Speaker 1: and wouldn't be entertaining. But I think you're right that 914 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,400 Speaker 1: often real investigation and there's a different kind of story. 915 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: But one that's equally fascinating. It does. And you know 916 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,680 Speaker 1: this is this is an issue that's plague skeptics and 917 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: and some of my colleagues for for many, many years, 918 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: is that there's this notion, as you said, that the skeptical, 919 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,399 Speaker 1: science based, grounded side of things is and interesting and 920 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,399 Speaker 1: that's not true. Wonderful, all right, Well, thanks very much 921 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 1: for giving us a tour of how to listen to 922 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: these stories, how to think about them, and how to 923 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,439 Speaker 1: investigate them with an open minded, skeptical mind. Are there 924 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: any top tips you want to leave our listeners for 925 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: if they come across the story of alien induction or 926 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 1: somebody tells them one, or they hear a podcast about it. Well, 927 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 1: there's a couple of tips. One is and it sounds 928 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 1: it sounds simple, but just don't believe everything you hear, 929 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,360 Speaker 1: don't believe everything you see. You know, understand that a 930 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,680 Speaker 1: lot of the people that are reporting these things are 931 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,719 Speaker 1: sincere people. I've interviewed dozens, if not hundreds of people 932 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 1: who have claimed to have experienced weird things, ranging from 933 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,560 Speaker 1: seeing Bigfoot close up to ghosts to being abducted by aliens. 934 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: Most of them are sincere. They're not liars. They're not crazy, 935 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,839 Speaker 1: they're not hoaxing. They genuinely believe what they experienced and 936 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,319 Speaker 1: and that that's how they interpreted it. The problem is 937 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,400 Speaker 1: that their sincere belief in interpretation that that they experienced 938 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 1: being abducted or seeing a UFO whatever wrops isn't necessarily true. 939 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean they're lying, doesn't mean they're crazy. It 940 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,879 Speaker 1: just means that the human mind is complex. We misunderstand things, 941 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 1: we can misperceive things, we misremember things. It happens far 942 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,480 Speaker 1: more than people realize, and so people need to keep 943 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 1: that in mind. Another point involves media literacy, and that's 944 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: just keep in mind that what you're seeing on TV 945 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 1: is carefully curated, is carefully edited to show a particular 946 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,600 Speaker 1: point of view. They're not documentaries trying to reveal the truth. 947 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: It's hey, here's this wild story, and here's the witness, 948 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,400 Speaker 1: and here's the recreation. Isn't this cool? And it is cool? 949 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 1: But there may be another side of the story. Well, 950 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,279 Speaker 1: thanks very much for your time and letting us your expertise. 951 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,120 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I great 952 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 1: to talk to you. All right, pretty great interview. Thank 953 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,319 Speaker 1: you Ben for being on the show. What did you 954 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,239 Speaker 1: get from Ben there, Daniel, I got from Ben that 955 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,239 Speaker 1: you know we should be careful about. How would we 956 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: listen to these stories that we're all excited about the 957 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,840 Speaker 1: possibility that these stories could be true, but before we 958 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: believe them, we need evidence. And you know, for me, 959 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: like I can't really believe a single story about alien 960 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:08,080 Speaker 1: visitation or abduction without hard, concrete, physical evidence, because it 961 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,680 Speaker 1: has to be more than just somebody's story. Science is 962 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: never about an anecdote. Like if I called came and 963 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,879 Speaker 1: I told you, hey, I invented fusion, but I don't 964 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 1: have my lab anymore it disappeared, you'd be like, okay, great, 965 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 1: redo it right. You're never going to accept somebody's results 966 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: just off the story they told you. You need concrete evidence, 967 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,920 Speaker 1: You need other people to get to examine it. Science 968 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: isn't about personalities, right, But what if, Daniel, what if 969 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,759 Speaker 1: two labs claimed to have discovered fusion but also both 970 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,560 Speaker 1: of their labs, Well, that would be a more compelling story. 971 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,279 Speaker 1: But then I'd want to build a third lab to 972 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 1: reproduce their results. Well, I think what that An interesting 973 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 1: point he made was about how you know people should 974 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,920 Speaker 1: be worried about popular media, you know, taking these stories 975 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,800 Speaker 1: and sensessionalizing them and just to sort of entertainers into 976 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: amazes and get us to click on things and watch them. 977 00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,200 Speaker 1: That's right, And so it's important to be media literate. Right. 978 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: If you hear a podcast about alien arrivals, or you 979 00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 1: watch that Ancient Aliens show, remember that they are cutting away, 980 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,239 Speaker 1: that they are not showing you all the investigation, that 981 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,759 Speaker 1: they're not necessarily taking a clear headed eye, because their 982 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,480 Speaker 1: goal is not to investigate. Their goal is just to 983 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: entertain and amaze, which in the end also misleads. All right, well, 984 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:21,680 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think that maybe the takeaway 985 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 1: point is that, you know, we can't rule out these 986 00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,680 Speaker 1: stories and say they're impossible, because physics does say that 987 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:29,640 Speaker 1: it is possible for alien life to be there, and 988 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,719 Speaker 1: it might be possible for them to come visit us. 989 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 1: But we should be skeptical about these stories, you know, 990 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:38,040 Speaker 1: ask questions and look for suspicious things about these stories. 991 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 1: That's right. And remember another point that Ben made, which 992 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,520 Speaker 1: is that people who are telling these stories are not 993 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,840 Speaker 1: necessarily lying. They can be believing them. They can be 994 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,960 Speaker 1: their honest recounting of their experience. But it doesn't make 995 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,920 Speaker 1: it necessarily true. Perception and memory can be very confusing. 996 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,799 Speaker 1: And so while I would love to believe a story 997 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,879 Speaker 1: about aliens, I'm gonna need some rock, hard evidence, maybe 998 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,520 Speaker 1: rocks from an alien war world before I come around 999 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,240 Speaker 1: rock signed by an alien? What would it take, Daniel, 1000 00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,839 Speaker 1: I want alien rock and roll? Well, I guess, yeah, 1001 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,040 Speaker 1: I think that's I guess. A picture, I guess, or 1002 00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: even a photo would help, right, photo would help, but 1003 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,839 Speaker 1: these days even those things could be manipulated. You need 1004 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,440 Speaker 1: something that independent scientists can really probe, can really come 1005 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,719 Speaker 1: to their own conclusions. All right, Well, we hope you 1006 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,320 Speaker 1: enjoyed that and took away a little bit of a 1007 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,200 Speaker 1: skepticism from all of this. You should be skeptical of 1008 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,800 Speaker 1: us as well, that's right, So keep an open mind. 1009 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,440 Speaker 1: Remember aliens might be out there. They might come and 1010 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 1: visit you. And if they do, call Daniel first. Should 1011 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,960 Speaker 1: we give him your number? Daniel, tell them to email 1012 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,840 Speaker 1: me to aliens at Daniel and Already dot com. I 1013 00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,680 Speaker 1: see you have a hotline email. I got a special 1014 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,440 Speaker 1: red phone you know that, and that buzzes emails just 1015 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,920 Speaker 1: from that address. All right, Well, thank you for joining us, 1016 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,640 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for tuning in and Aliens, 1017 00:52:52,719 --> 00:53:00,360 Speaker 1: don't forget to send us an email. See you next time. Yeah, 1018 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,360 Speaker 1: thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge explain 1019 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,279 Speaker 1: the universe is a production and I heart Radio. For 1020 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,359 Speaker 1: more podcast form my heart Radio, visit the I heart 1021 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:15,040 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 1022 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,400 Speaker 1: favorite shows. H