WEBVTT - Black Business Month w/ Korsha Wilson 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:07.320 Citizen Chef is a production of I Heart Radio. Hey everyone, 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.560 welcome back to Citizen Chef. I am so looking forward 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:13.080 to this week's show because, in my opinion, it strikes 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.639 perfect balance between being timely and timeless. You see it 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:20.600 right now, it's August, and that means it's Black business months. 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.680 I like, I hope many of you have been thinking 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:25.960 a lot this past year on how to better support 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.640 black owned businesses in this country. And we actually spoke 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.720 to our guests today about this very topic almost a 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.000 year ago. Back then, there was a large push support 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.440 black businesses after the Black Lives Matter protests of last summer, 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.239 and such a push was long overdue. And even if 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:44.600 it is not as trendy it was a year ago, 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.559 these conversations illuminate how supporting your black local businesses go 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.320 far beyond being a political statement and more importantly, contributes 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.400 to preserving bashions of American history and encouraging future black 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:01.040 colinary leaders of tomorrow. Yes, I'm talking specifically up back restaurants. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.040 So I'm gonna shut up now and I'll toss them. 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.360 Mike to the incredible Coursier Wilson, who was a food critic, 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.000 writer and and podcast host, Thank you so much for 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.959 having me so listen. My first restaurant job, I was seventeen, 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.399 just graduated high school, and I had been working in 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.160 this restaurant as a as a bus boy, and so 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:20.840 I knew the kitchen staff. And when I got to 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.160 the kitchen, they put me in the prep kitchen and 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.360 my boss, you know, I guess the chef was the 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:27.880 boss of the kitchen. But my boss was an older 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.120 black man by the name of Slim. Kind of hit 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.160 it off with him, and he showed me that the 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.840 restaurant had this recipe book that he was supposed to follow, 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:37.600 but he with a nod and a wink, said I 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:39.840 do things my way, and he had been cooking for 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.399 a bunch of years, and uh, you know, he just 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:43.720 really took me to his wing and showed me a 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:45.560 bunch of stuff and and kind of the closest thing 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:47.720 i'd have to have a mentor, I guess early on, 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:49.400 and he looked out for me and it was great. 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:51.720 And then later on when I was I lived in 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:53.960 East Orange. For those that don't know, East Orange is 0:01:53.960 --> 0:02:00.160 probably black. Yeah, I grew up in Elizabeth, but I 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.240 lived in East Orange and my two blocks away from 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.680 where I lived. I lived near Upsala College and and 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.639 for those that don't know East Orange, it's probably nine 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.320 percent black. And I was commuting to New York working 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:14.880 and on a cook salary, So two seventy a month 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.680 apartment was just perfect for me. But I I right 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.280 down the street two blocks away Althea Gibson who was 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.520 the well known black tennis player UH champion, and she 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.120 had a restaurant and I used to go there and 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.360 at least once a week. Number one it was. It 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.400 was a block away and it was absolutely delicious, and 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:35.240 it was a lot of food that I I didn't 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:37.200 know obviously, not growing up with it, and I just 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.160 would eat through the menu and I was usually the 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.480 only white person in in in the restaurant, which was 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.440 really cool. And I kept going back and then finally 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.440 like they were like, you know, you know, I struck 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.400 up a conversation and you know, told when I was 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.080 a cook, and I was just really interested in what 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.440 was happening from just my culinary standpoint, and then then 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:55.320 it was just great. Then it was like I was 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.200 I was the guy that they could teach and and 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.000 it was it was a lot of fun. Yeah, So 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:03.239 restaurants and generall I see as like pillars of communities, 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.799 but black on restaurants in particular, there they provide edible 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.560 ties to black food ways in this country. It was 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.679 really funny because I at the time, I had spent 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.880 some time in in Gasking in the south of France 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:21.080 and southwest France, and so much of the food from 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.520 the south there was very reminiscent of a lot of 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:26.840 the food that I saw Alfia doing in her restaurant, 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.880 and and so you found a kinship there. But obviously, 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.400 so much of American cuisine as we know today was 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.320 based on, especially down South, of food from that was 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.760 brought over from Africa and then adapted to what was 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:42.600 available locally. And Black food ways are incredibly diverse, from 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.520 like Southern restaurants to Caribbean restaurants. And one of the 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:51.320 ways that we preserve tradition and cuisine is through home 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.880 cooking and through cooking that happens in restaurants. And so 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.640 when you think about like black restaurants in this country, 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:03.000 they're really like pillars of history and there you know, 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:06.600 they're a way of preserving Black history, which is ultimately 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.680 American history, right, And I mean it could obviously say 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:15.800 that that black cuisine is really American cuisine, especially when 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:17.640 you think about regional cuisine. You think of that the 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.680 cuisine that comes out of the South and the regional 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:22.680 pockets in the South as well. I mean, the food 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.440 in Louisiana has a different history than the food in Mississippi, 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.880 for instance. But but all all of that is really 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.080 out to the black cooks who who actually created the 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:34.920 recipes and then handed them down. In fact, when I 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:38.280 was a seventeen year old, um young cook right out 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.640 of high school working in my first restaurant, an elderly 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.920 black gentleman who um was responsible for doing all of 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.679 the recipes in the restaurant. I think back on where 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.719 we are now and think back on what he said, Yeah, 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:54.000 the recipes are good, but I use mine. And yet 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.040 this was a guy who clearly didn't get credited this 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.479 as chef in the restaurant. And and that's I guess, 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.200 what's what's happening. And so when you talk at out 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.720 restaurants being pillage of community and in black owned restaurants 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.839 being community, but it means so much more because I 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:08.880 think that there's a dad of gratitude that we need 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.320 to give to so many of those those black cuisines 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.760 and cultures, because that is what was really the cornerstone 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.760 of American cuisine absolutely. I mean, you know, enslaved Africans 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.719 really laid the foundation for what we considered to be 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.440 American food. And you know, they're not given the proper 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:29.760 credit for the techniques that they brought, for the ingredients 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.560 that were brought with them. I mean, I love that 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:36.640 you mentioned the regional differences in black food ways because 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:40.719 I think, you know, there's this notion that black food 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:45.159 is soul food and period, that's it, and that's definitely 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:47.520 not the case. It's you know, there are so many 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:51.240 like regional differences in black food ways in this country, 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.840 and you know that is because of history. That's because 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:58.040 of the enslaved Africans that came here, where they were from, 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.119 the tools and skills they brought with them, and where 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.440 they landed. And then as you know, migration happened from 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.440 the South to other parts of the country, the food 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.400 ways adapted to and so black food ways are really 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:15.160 this dynamic piece of American history that's edible. Can we 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.640 speak a little bit more about the different regional blanquisines 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.560 in this country and the links between food and community. Absolutely, 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.600 so the food ways in particular, I mean it depends 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:26.520 on so I grew up in the mid Atlantic. I 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.840 grew up in Maryland, and so when you think about food, 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:31.640 they're like, obviously you think of crab, there's a ton 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.960 of seafood. But if you go a little bit further south, 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.680 you're in North Carolina, there's a history of whole hog barbecue. 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:42.159 If you go in further south down Florida's seafood again, 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.040 but in a totally different way, more accented with the 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:50.080 southern flavors that you think of. Louisiana has their own 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:54.240 whole barbecue edition, and and seafood plays a big role there. 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.920 You go to the Midwest, it's hotly and then like 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:01.159 I just think one of the biggest and most important 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.919 part of black food ways is just joy and like 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:09.920 the joy of communal dining, coming together, eating, drinking. It's 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.920 like such a big part of black food ways in 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:18.600 this country. It was like one of the reprieves from 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:22.400 the atmosphere of this country in the past, and unfortunately 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.360 in the present, it's always been like such an important 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:29.920 part of black culture. And it's like I wrote the 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.960 story about fish fries and the importance of Friday night 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:36.320 fish fries and black communities across the country, and that 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:41.560 actually stems from slavery. It was usually held on Sundays. 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:43.840 It was a meal that the people who owned the 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.360 enslave Africans didn't have to worry about. Someone would go 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:48.880 fishing and bring back some fish and they didn't have 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:51.040 to work that day. So it was like a time 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.840 in which the enslaved Africans could come together and have 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:58.240 a meal. And that that tradition carried on as people 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:01.360 migrated across the country. And so you see fried fish 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:05.960 is popular on Friday nights in Los Angeles here where 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:09.160 I live, in New Jersey, and Harlem in the Northeast 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:13.520 in the South, Like all these traditions come from just 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.040 the joy of like coming together and being able to die. 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.800 And that's like such an important part of like black 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:23.560 food and the black restaurant community in this country. We'll 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:31.640 be back with more citizens, chef, So how do how 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.240 does my go about finding the restaurants they want to support? 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.720 You know, there's a saying that when white America catches 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.959 the cold, black America catches pneumonia, and that has been 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.760 so true with coronavirus. I mean, you know, running the 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.440 business and economics are running a restaurant, like the margins 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:52.040 are super slim already, and so you know, those businesses 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.480 have now had to pivot to take out our outdoor 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.720 dining and have largely been left out of the paycheck 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:03.760 protection program and so to become even more difficult to 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.880 run and sustain a business in this environment. So yeah, 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.440 it's it's been really tough. There's a ton of resources 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.360 um online of black owned restaurants. There's this great app 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.160 called Okra Eat Okra and it has black owned restaurants 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.160 across the country and you basically just type in where 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.840 you are into this app and it will pull up 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:28.720 all the black owned restaurants near you and it's wonderful. 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.480 And so it was started by this couple that had 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.120 that same question of where do I find black owned restaurants, 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.440 Like how do I support black owned restaurants? And so 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.960 they started this app and just started you know, crowdsourcing 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.240 data of black owned restaurants across the country and it's 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.079 such a wonderful resource. So do you see those black 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.520 owned restaurants that are pillars of the community you know, 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.080 continue to have a role in that community. Oh my goodness, 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.560 there's something so beautiful about black owned spaces. You know, 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.440 the cooking. For me as a writer, black owned spaces 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.839 really high light the ingenuity of Black Americans in this country. 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.960 But the dining and eating together, it's just it's it 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.360 offers like a bit of safety and comfort in the 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.520 country that hasn't always been safe for us. And so 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:20.040 it's just it's the most beautiful experience to be in 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:23.839 a black owned space and to feel that hospitality, feel 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.480 that warmth, and taste food that just has generations and 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:35.040 generations of history and and savvy, and you know, it's just, 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.559 you know, I I am constantly blown away by how 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:42.000 black people in this country have made a way out 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.640 of no way. And you taste that in the food. 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:52.480 You taste that just resiliency and that survival and joy 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.120 in every plate of food that you get in a 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.320 black owned restaurant. I think that's such a beautiful point. 0:10:57.360 --> 0:10:59.520 And it reminds me of something you wrote, which is 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.520 what people of colors say, we're kept in the margins, 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.160 don't write us off. Um, how does that translate to 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.880 black business ownership in the food world. I wrote that 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:15.320 in as a response to kind of this sort of 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.920 you know, this wasn't recently, it was a while ago 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.280 where people color were saying, you know, the restaurant industry 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.520 isn't isn't as hospitable to people color as it should be, 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:31.880 and basically they kept hearing back, oh, but the restaurant 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.160 industry is so diverse, like what are you talking about? 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:38.319 And you know, obviously this industry is way better than 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.520 other industries in this country, and if you look at numbers, 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.840 sure the industry as a whole is very diverse, but 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.640 when you're looking at ownership or management level positions and restaurants, 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:53.880 it's still mostly white. And so I just wanted people 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.360 to realize that if you were actually, you know, interested 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:01.320 in making things more equitable, interested in making things, you know, 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.720 actually like sustainable, then you need to listen to people 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.880 color when they tell you what's going on. And I 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.360 think that's the only way that we're gonna make a 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.280 change in this industry and then those country as if 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.480 we actually start to listen to people who are marginalized 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.840 instead of telling them, oh, actually it's okay, what are 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.760 you talking about? So we we end up actuallyining a 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:24.520 cycle when we failed to take a step back and 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.480 listen and actually work on changing those numbers. Yeah, and 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.280 it's so personal to me too, because before I was 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.199 a food writer, I worked in restaurants and I worked 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.080 in fine dining, and it felt like even when I 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.880 went from hostess to server to manager, it felt like 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:43.080 there was this glass ceiling of how far I could 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.360 rise up too, you know, own a restaurant one day, 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.959 or you know, be the GM. It was always someone 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.439 came in, a white man came in and was the GM, 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.360 you know, and I was the only black woman working there, 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:02.640 and so there wasn't really any sort of model for 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:06.320 me to follow. It was just you know, will promote 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.800 you as far as we want you to go. But 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.760 there wasn't like a clear path to being a GM 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.960 or even ownership, right, Yeah, you know, I think something 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.640 else as I'm listening to you speak. You're right, Uh, 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.360 you know, there is diverse industry, but the you know, 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.559 the leaders at the top necessarily don't reflect that diversity. 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.920 You know. I know in my businesses I had got 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:32.920 in in thirty years of owning restaurants, I think I've 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.120 had two black general managers over the years, and you know, 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.880 there's that all feeling and you know in the sense 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.120 that to make it when you're you're black, you can't 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.160 just be good. You can't just be you know, you know, 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.720 someone who excels. You have to be you know, exceptional. 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:49.600 You just have to prove yourself. I think that's true 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:51.960 for women, and I think that's true for people of color, 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.080 that you have to just be really exceptional. And in 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:57.240 these cases, these two were exceptional. And I guess that 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.520 that that mentorship is so important because is when you 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.800 have black on black mentorship, people rise through the ranks, 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.200 they get the proper training, and that's something else that 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.520 you're supporting. You're not only supporting the owner with your dollars, 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.280 You're you're supporting a culture that will support and and 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.440 how hold up other other black people so they become, 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.120 you know, managers in general, and they're trained. And then 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:24.000 it's not only incumbent upon you know, it's it's in 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.360 a large restaurant group, people get lost and you know 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:29.880 you've got to have you kind of have to be 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.560 really aggressive to climb up the ranks. And and and 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.280 you know, in some people will look at someone who's black, 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.440 is being aggressive and saying, well, you know, you're being aggressive, 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:38.920 where if it's someone white, it's like they're just a 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.840 go getter. Yeah, and so yeah, of course, yeah, and 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.520 and so you're supporting more than just uh, you know, 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.200 you know the restaurant. You're supporting a whole training ground 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.400 for future restaurants and for you know, for for leaders 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.440 of the industry down the road. So it's it's more 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.480 than just that plate of food. Black restaurants, like you said, 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:02.080 like black restaurants really offer not just the opportunity for 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.840 diners to like experience this culture and experience this food, 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:11.440 but within the walls of the restaurant, it's mentorship in 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.200 that restaurant and if they decide to do something else 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.000 in the future that involves food. I think that's one 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.080 of the things we don't talk about in the restaurant 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.520 industry of how, you know, chefs that come up, you know, 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.840 through the fine dining world and then go on to 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.440 open up their own spaces, they can always call the 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.680 chefs that they worked with or the lione cooks that 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:31.600 they worked with, who may have their own spots now 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:36.880 and ask questions about financials or labor costs, or you 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.960 know whatever, but black chefs don't have that as much, 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.760 and so how do we create more of that? How 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.240 do we create more spaces where black chefs have that 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.720 access to mentorship that white chefs have traditionally had. And 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.400 I think that supporting black restaurants is the way that 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.240 we do that. The other thing, I think it's really important, 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.400 and it's kind of departs a little bit from supporting 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:00.520 black owned restaurants, but I really believe that in some 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.920 of the culinary schools and all the culinary schools, the 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.080 schools there should be black food studies because when you 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:07.840 have I mean, I think about food and finance high 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:09.200 do you know food and finance time. I'm a big 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.240 supporter and I think they do an amazing job. But 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.160 you go there and they're teaching all these you know, 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.440 students who are prominently black and Hispanic. They're teaching Italian 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.360 and French food, and they're they're not teaching them to 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.880 love their their cuisine. They're teaching them to love somebody 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.960 else's cuisine. And you know, I've seen that so many 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.800 times when you see, uh, you know, young chef that's 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.280 trained a certain way and it takes him thinking about 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:32.920 Kwami when Qualmy opened his first restaurant, he wasn't doing 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:34.760 what he's doing now. And I know he just left 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:36.720 his his kids and Kim, but but he wasn't doing 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.080 He was doing kind of more fancified tasting. And he 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.400 realized that it didn't work and because it wasn't coming 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:43.200 from his soul, wasn't coming from his heart, and he 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.160 was cooking somebody else's food. And you know, I hear 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:47.400 that from so many chefs. I have a friend of 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.280 mine who's Persian. His name is Bizad, and he trained 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.160 in some of the great restaurants around the world, and 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.960 finally one day said, why aren't I doing Persian food. 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.640 It's a it's a world class cuisine, and it's in 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.560 short changing it because either you know, there's no model 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.440 for that. And so what I think is really really 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.040 exciting is is I mean even think of Marcus Samielson. 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.440 You know, yes, he's he's black. He came through Ethiopia 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.679 through Sweden, and he was doing Swedish food until one 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:14.360 day he said, hey, I got to explore the black 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.679 side of my my heritage. And he went back to 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.120 Africa and found those dishes and found those flavors and 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:20.920 you know, you think we see what Edward O Jordan's do, 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.159 what a machine was doing, and you know they're they 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.400 were trained in more French, you know, French fied restaurants 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.359 in the Awardo, trained French laundry, and one day said 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.960 that's not me. I gotta do my thing. And so 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.920 I I find that to be really really exciting right now. 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.800 Like when I went to culinary school, we had cuisines 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.880 of the America's was like there was a day that 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:48.520 was Caribbean food, right for the Caribbean, which is like 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.919 fifty something country. Like it was just like, you know, 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:59.439 just laughably oversimplified and just like you know, I'm half 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.800 curb be in and it was just like, wait, why 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.280 why aren't we spending more time looking at the like 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:11.600 depth and complexity of jerk, you know, like there's just 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:14.639 as much beauty in that as any French dish or 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.640 Italian dish. But you know, we had a whole section 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:23.800 on French cookery, and the Mediterranean cuisines of Asia was 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:29.520 all compacted together like all of Asia, like, and it's 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.760 just as a writer, you kind of have to there's 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.920 that moment of asking myself, oh, wait, why we're talking 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.520 about the regional like specificity of Italian cuisine from the 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:47.160 north to the right, but we're not doing it with 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.280 the Caribbean. That doesn't make any sense to me. The 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:53.000 cuisines are very different island to island, So you know, 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.960 as a writer, for me, that's a really exciting thing 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.560 to try and explore and tease out for readers, like, Okay, 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:07.200 here are the ways in which like indigenous communities, enslaved Africans, 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.959 and colonization all come together to create these different cuisines 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.119 in the Caribbean that vary from island to island. And 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.159 here are some of the dishes. Like just like you 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.320 were talking about chefs like kind of breaking that why 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.000 am I not seeing my food cooked this way? Like 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:24.840 as a writer, it's like, why am I not seeing 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.040 my food talked about this way? And that's a really 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.800 fun thing to do. So a piece that I wrote 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.520 last year was about superfine dining restaurant here in New 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.800 York and the way I experienced that as a black 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.760 woman and how you know, this was a restaurant that 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:49.520 was luded and praised by all white male food critics 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.600 and it was like, wait a minute, this was actually 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.479 very uncomfortable for me, Like, and so, you know, what 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.400 would our food criticism world look like if there were 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.560 more black women writing about it? And I think you're 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.760 seeing it was kind of a a lot of people 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:06.440 reached out and said, you know, I hadn't really thought 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:08.600 about that or I hadn't really seen it that way, 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.560 And I think that's happening now people are really looking 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:17.600 around them and saying, oh, wait, like, oh, this system 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:21.400 was built to like not serve members of my community, 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.920 black members of my community. So how do we one 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:28.320 listen and to make changes to make sure that it 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:40.320 is equitable for everyone? Hey, welcome back to Citizen Chef. 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.359 I want to turn back briefly to the history of 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.760 Black Americans in the food industry because the narratives are complex, 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.000 and in fact, what the narratives I heard is that 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:49.960 some black people don't want to work in the service 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.560 industry because it's too close to being in servitude for 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.679 a predominantly white audience. Is there truth in that narrative 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.600 and does that ring true to your experiences? Mm hmm, 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.680 so I haven't. I don't know if it's because I'm 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:08.680 surrounded by black culinarians, but we all you know, love 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.359 being in the food industry. I think that there is 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.640 there is a shame associated with I think in previous 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:20.119 generations with working in the hospitality industry, you know, it 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:22.760 was more, you know, we want you to be a 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:25.840 teacher or a doctor or a lawyer, because of that 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:30.760 history of hospitality being us providing service to white folks. 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:37.920 But I I think my generation and definitely generations after, 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:40.960 you know, see cooking as an art form. And I 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:43.080 don't know if that's because of the ways in which 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:46.439 food in general has turned into more of a like 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:51.000 pop culture thing, but I think definitely older generations, you know, 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:55.160 saw it as kind of a lowly sort of profession 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.080 and we should try to do something else. But I 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:01.520